Author Topic: Are You Shitting Me?  (Read 12469 times)

Limey

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Are You Shitting Me?
« on: October 21, 2011, 10:17:52 am »
Bank of America wants to move $75 trillion...yes, Trillion...of it's shitty derivatives out of Merrill Lynch and into a subsidiary that's supported by insured deposits.  Thus, if those derivatives fail to the extent it takes down that subsidiary, the insurer will make good on the account holders' deposits.

The wrinkle here is that the insurer is you and I.  They're FDIC-insured deposits.  W...T...F?!!
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Ron Brand

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 10:28:39 am »
I think we're a lot closer to seeing blood in the streets these days.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 11:20:09 am »
Shitfuck.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 11:22:55 am »
Somebody needs to explain to me why we haven't reinstituted Glass-Steagall.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 11:29:48 am »
I'm putting my disposable income into weaponry and fortifications.
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austro

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 11:34:48 am »
Somebody needs to explain to me why we haven't reinstituted Glass-Steagall.

It will stifle the Job Creators!
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 11:37:42 am »
Somebody needs to explain to me why we haven't reinstituted Glass-Steagall.

We're at a functional stale-mate in Congress.  Nothing changes, until something changes.  I'm betting nothing changes.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 11:43:35 am »
I am very curious to see how the Obama administration handles this.
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Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 12:19:58 pm »
I am very curious to see how the Obama administration handles this.

Me too.  Ron Suskind wrote that Obama wanted to break up Shittibank during the crisis, but was blocked by Tim Geitner people in his administration.  How the boss gets blocked is one question.  Why this was not done when the leverage - which has now gone - was there to do it, is another.

The banks that were too big to fail are now even bigger.  How does that help the situation?
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 12:28:55 pm »
Me too.  Ron Suskind wrote that Obama wanted to break up Shittibank during the crisis, but was blocked by Tim Geitner people in his administration.  How the boss gets blocked is one question.  Why this was not done when the leverage - which has now gone - was there to do it, is another.

The banks that were too big to fail are now even bigger.  How does that help the situation?

Jobs ripped him last year for being too anti-business.  And Jobs voted for him.  I can see where this move should put BofA in a position to hire and improve its ability to offer loans.  However, if Obama supports the move he runs the risk of being in opposition to the anti-Wall Street movement.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 12:41:53 pm »
Jobs ripped him last year for being too anti-business.  And Jobs voted for him.  I can see where this move should put BofA in a position to hire and improve its ability to offer loans.  However, if Obama supports the move he runs the risk of being in opposition to the anti-Wall Street movement.

Can't really see what he's done to be "anti-business".  Didn't BoA just post huge profits?

Ron Brand

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 12:43:54 pm »
Can't really see what he's done to be "anti-business".  Didn't BoA just post huge profits?

If they get one iota less than everything they want, it's anti-business.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 01:06:08 pm »
Can't really see what he's done to be "anti-business".  Didn't BoA just post huge profits?

I'm not going to say all regulations are bad, because that's clearly not true.  However, it is quite possible/probable that some-to-many regulations (pre existing, or implemented by this administration) have done more harm to business than good to those they were meant to protect.  Any of those open the door to an "anti-business" label.  Some of the credit card reforms immediatly strike me as one such example.

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2011, 01:09:31 pm »
I'm not going to say all regulations are bad, because that's clearly not true.  However, it is quite possible/probable that some-to-many regulations (pre existing, or implemented by this administration) have done more harm to business than good to those they were meant to protect.  Any of those open the door to an "anti-business" label.  Some of the credit card reforms immediatly strike me as one such example.



Or, by not regulating enough and watching the banks create the conditions that lead to the biggest recession in 80 years, he's anti-business as well.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2011, 01:18:57 pm »
Or, by not regulating enough and watching the banks create the conditions that lead to the biggest recession in 80 years, he's anti-business as well.

True.  Of course, we can't have it both ways.  Much of the success we've had as a country has come from loose money, too.  If we want to say "if only we hadn't killed Glass-Steagall" it's only fair to recognize that the benefits of doing so (crazy large, and yes risky, investments) would also have gone away.  We now know that a hyperactive investment period went bust to put us in a nasty recession.  Do we know that a stagnant economy might not have also done the same?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 01:40:46 pm by Lurch »
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austro

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2011, 01:28:41 pm »
Some of the credit card reforms immediatly strike me as one such example.

If we *really* believe in free markets, the credit/debit card fee crap is easy to fix: let the credit/debit card agents charge any damn fee they want for their cards, but make bloody sure that the fee shows up, clearly identified, as part of the cost of the goods or services. Right now they get away with murder because they get to negotiate their fee structure with the vendors and completely hide it.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 01:30:33 pm »
what is "disposable income?"
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2011, 01:32:21 pm »
If we *really* believe in free markets, the credit/debit card fee crap is easy to fix: let the credit/debit card agents charge any damn fee they want for their cards, but make bloody sure that the fee shows up, clearly identified, as part of the cost of the goods or services. Right now they get away with murder because they get to negotiate their fee structure with the vendors and completely hide it.

I'm not following.  What interest do we have in what fees two independent companies charge each other?  We don't pay the fee.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2011, 01:37:48 pm »
what is "disposable income?"

Fuck if I know. That's why I'm a little short on weaponry and fortifications at the moment.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2011, 01:38:28 pm »
what is "disposable income?"

The percentage of our checks that my wife spends?  (ba-dum-dum)
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 01:40:59 pm »
I'm not following.  What interest do we have in what fees two independent companies charge each other?  We don't pay the fee.

Actually, we do pay the fee...somewhere along the line. We are paying for a service to conduct business somewhere. Either the service company or the other business is having to pay a fee. It will be passed on to us. I doubt government regulation will make it cheaper or better.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 01:42:51 pm »
If we *really* believe in free markets, the credit/debit card fee crap is easy to fix: let the credit/debit card agents charge any damn fee they want for their cards, but make bloody sure that the fee shows up, clearly identified, as part of the cost of the goods or services. Right now they get away with murder because they get to negotiate their fee structure with the vendors and completely hide it.

I'm not against fees/higher CC interest or for fees/higher interest for that matter.  It's a service that one can use or not use.  However, I think it's fucked up that this is all waived for those with above average income and savings.  They are intentionally fucking lower income people and creating a CC debt death spiral for some.  That's not cool at all.  

I get why they do it (have to make money off of every customer, even those that don't have meaningful deposits), but it's still fucked up and should be closely looked at by the CPA.  

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 01:51:52 pm »
I'm not against fees/higher CC interest or for fees/higher interest for that matter.  It's a service that one can use or not use.  However, I think it's fucked up that this is all waived for those with above average income and savings.  They are intentionally fucking lower income people and creating a CC debt death spiral for some.  That's not cool at all.  

I get why they do it (have to make money off of every customer, even those that don't have meaningful deposits), but it's still fucked up and should be closely looked at by the CPA.  

So you disagree that folks with lower income and savings are a higher risk when using a revolving credit solution such as credit cards?  Don't get me wrong, I think some folks are/were exploited in some areas of borrowing/lending etc...  But the general concept of quantifying risk is based on simple, rational analysis.  Any other factors, like race, are federally prohibited from being a factor.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 01:54:07 pm »
Actually, we do pay the fee...somewhere along the line. We are paying for a service to conduct business somewhere. Either the service company or the other business is having to pay a fee. It will be passed on to us. I doubt government regulation will make it cheaper or better.

The vendor has no obligation to pass that fee on to us, nor do they have any obligation to take credit cards*.  That is up to them to run their business as competitively (or not) as they see fit.  If they want to overprice their product to the point where customers use alternatives, that's their prerogative.  Unless they're a credit card company, apparently.  We effectivly pushed a revenue cut on credit card companies, all but forcing them to find alternative revenue streams, or just telling their shareholders (including you and me) that they lost significant value overnight... Welcome new checking fees!

*I think it's worth pointing out that many of us (I hope) pay nothing directly for using credit cards.  A damn fine, free, convenience.  The vendors also greatly benefit from credit card usage.  Remember standing behind 10 people in line writing checks?  How about watching teenagers trying to figure out how much change to give you?  How about waiting while I go open another roll of quarters?  Need to run to the bank to deposit cash, or grab more $5s?
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Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 01:54:13 pm »
True.  Of course, we can't have it both ways.  Much of the success we've had as a country has come from loose money, too.  If we want to say "if only we hadn't killed Glass-Steagall" it's only fair to recognize that the benefits of doing so (crazy large, and yes risky, investments) would also have gone away.  We now know that a hyperactive investment period went bust to put us in a nasty recession.  Do we know that a stagnant economy might not have also done the same?

The Feds have been fucking around with financial regulation since the 80s.  From the moment the tinkering began, instead of the stable and consistently growing financial system that existed from the 50s, it's been boom-bust-boom-bust, rinse-repeat.  That's not good for anyone except those who speculate on booms and busts.

Add to that the widespread abandonment of pensions in favour of 401k plans, and the pressure on social security and medicare, and you're facing a situation where it is harder and harder to contemplate actually retiring at any point.  My ex-Father-in-Law had his retirement savings wiped out shortly before being forced into early retirement in the 90s.  Through no choice of his own, he had to start drawing on his retirement funds at the exact time that they were at their lowest unit values for a decade, and he did not have the luxury of time to wait for them to come back.

This is why a boom and bust cycle sucks, and this is why regulation to engender stability in he financial markets is necessary.  The banks exist because we allow them to, not the other way around.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 01:59:05 pm »
The Feds have been fucking around with financial regulation since the 80s.  From the moment the tinkering began, instead of the stable and consistently growing financial system that existed from the 50s, it's been boom-bust-boom-bust, rinse-repeat.  That's not good for anyone except those who speculate on booms and busts.

Add to that the widespread abandonment of pensions in favour of 401k plans, and the pressure on social security and medicare, and you're facing a situation where it is harder and harder to contemplate actually retiring at any point.  My ex-Father-in-Law had his retirement savings wiped out shortly before being forced into early retirement in the 90s.  Through no choice of his own, he had to start drawing on his retirement funds at the exact time that they were at their lowest unit values for a decade, and he did not have the luxury of time to wait for them to come back.

This is why a boom and bust cycle sucks, and this is why regulation to engender stability in he financial markets is necessary.  The banks exist because we allow them to, not the other way around.

You may very well be 100% right, but I'm saying that "That's not good for anyone except those who speculate on booms and busts" can't be substantiated.  There is no doubt that we all benefited during the booms.  We have a pretty fucking amazing quality of life in the US and a lot of that is thanks to risky behavior.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2011, 02:01:25 pm »
The debit card fee seems fishy to me.  The banks weren't allowed to charge somebody for negotiating a paper check.  That's why they pushed the debit card in the first place - to save millions of dollars in costs associated with processing paper checks.  Now, they want to charge their customers for the same basic transaction that they weren't allowed to charge, despite the fact that the new format saves them huge amounts of money. 
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Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 02:15:40 pm »
You may very well be 100% right, but I'm saying that "That's not good for anyone except those who speculate on booms and busts" can't be substantiated.  There is no doubt that we all benefited during the booms.  We have a pretty fucking amazing quality of life in the US and a lot of that is thanks to risky behavior.

The quality of life is thanks to a lot of things, and risky behaviour is part of that.  But the risk (and the potential rewards) in risky behaviour should accrue to those taking the risk, and not be socialised thus rendering the behaviour risk-less for the individual.

This BoA situation is a classic example.  By dumping their risky (and likely to fail) derivatives into an FDIC-insured subsidiary, they avoid the consequences of their risk-taking, and put the downside on the Federal government.  It may be legal within current regulations, but it shouldn't be.
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Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 02:20:03 pm »
The vendor has no obligation to pass that fee on to us, nor do they have any obligation to take credit cards*.  

Interestingly enough, Louisiana has just banned the use of cash in transactions involving second-hand goods.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2011, 02:28:26 pm »
The banks weren't allowed to charge somebody for negotiating a paper check.

Really?
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2011, 02:28:34 pm »
The debit card fee seems fishy to me.  The banks weren't allowed to charge somebody for negotiating a paper check.  That's why they pushed the debit card in the first place - to save millions of dollars in costs associated with processing paper checks.  Now, they want to charge their customers for the same basic transaction that they weren't allowed to charge, despite the fact that the new format saves them huge amounts of money. 

Maybe I am confused. You could be charged for checks. You could be charged for checking accounts.

Debit cards had a transaction fee to cover the electronic transaction. New regulation limited what could be charged for the transaction, so a monthly fee was initiated (much like some checking accounts). Now, it is wrong to have that fee?

(I have to add my wife is the accountant in the family, for very good reasons, and I have a fantastic Credit Union, so much of this is more of a discussion for me.)
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 02:30:18 pm »
The quality of life is thanks to a lot of things, and risky behaviour is part of that.  But the risk (and the potential rewards) in risky behaviour should accrue to those taking the risk, and not be socialised thus rendering the behaviour risk-less for the individual.

Agree.  I'm not sure where to stand on bailing them out.  It seems both wrong, but also nessisary at the time.

Quote
This BoA situation is a classic example.  By dumping their risky (and likely to fail) derivatives into an FDIC-insured subsidiary, they avoid the consequences of their risk-taking, and put the downside on the Federal government.  It may be legal within current regulations, but it shouldn't be.

Yeah, this is fucked up as far as I can tell.  Will be interested in hearing it defended (if it can be)
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 02:30:28 pm »
The quality of life is thanks to a lot of things, and risky behaviour is part of that.  But the risk (and the potential rewards) in risky behaviour should accrue to those taking the risk, and not be socialised thus rendering the behaviour risk-less for the individual.

This BoA situation is a classic example.  By dumping their risky (and likely to fail) derivatives into an FDIC-insured subsidiary, they avoid the consequences of their risk-taking, and put the downside on the Federal government.  It may be legal within current regulations, but it shouldn't be.

Limey, someone has taken over your brain account!
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2011, 02:31:52 pm »
Debit cards had a transaction fee to cover the electronic transaction.

FWIW, I don't know that this is true, but it's not really relivent.  If they want to charge a fee just for the fuck of it, that's ok too.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2011, 02:37:23 pm »
FWIW, I don't know that this is true, but it's not really relivent.  If they want to charge a fee just for the fuck of it, that's ok too.

Quote
Bank of America, the nation’s biggest bank, said on Thursday that it planned to start charging customers a $5 monthly fee when they used their debit cards for purchases. It was just one of several new charges expected to hit consumers as new regulations crimp banks’ profits.

Wells Fargo and Chase are testing $3 monthly debit card fees. Regions Financial, based in Birmingham, Ala., plans to start charging a $4 fee next month, while SunTrust, another regional powerhouse, is charging a $5 fee.

The round of new charges stems from a rule, which takes effect on Saturday, that limits the fees that banks can levy on merchants every time a consumer uses a debit card to make a purchase. The rule, known as the Durbin amendment, after its sponsor Senator Richard J. Durbin, is a crucial part of the Dodd-Frank financial overhaul law.

Until now, the fees have been 44 cents a transaction, on average. The Federal Reserve in June agreed to cut the fees to a maximum of about 24 cents. While the fee amounts to pennies per swipe, it rapidly adds up across millions of transactions. The new limit is expected to cost the banks about $6.6 billion in revenue a year, beginning in 2012, according to Javelin Strategy and Research. That comes on top of another loss, of $5.6 billion, from new rules restricting overdraft fees, which went into effect in July 2010.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/business/banks-to-make-customers-pay-debit-card-fee.html
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2011, 02:38:04 pm »
Maybe I am confused. You could be charged for checks. You could be charged for checking accounts.

They can charge the account holder for the privilege of writing a check but not the payee when he goes to cash it. Credit card companies can.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2011, 02:39:06 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/business/banks-to-make-customers-pay-debit-card-fee.html

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I was just questioning your reason for why the fee existed (to cover some cost).
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2011, 02:39:15 pm »
FWIW, I don't know that this is true, but it's not really relivent.  If they want to charge a fee just for the fuck of it, that's ok too.

Quite hilariously, back in the UK a few years ago, someone stumbled upon a never-repealed old law (19th century vintage) that stated that bank charges must reflect the bank's actual costs, and not be inflated for punitive or revenue-generating purposes.  They took their bank to court for charging 30 quid to bounce a check, and established a legal precedent that wiped out the banks' ability to fuck with people just because they wanted to.  IIRC, they proved that a bank's cost to bounce a check was a fraction of a penny, because all it took was a fraction of a second of processor time.  Soon, downloadable forms became readily available, allowing everyone to claw back from their bank all the overcharging they'd suffered over the years.  And the banks had to honour those demands.

I doubt such a law exists over here, but it would be nice...
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2011, 02:39:28 pm »
They can charge the account holder for the privilege of writing a check but not the payee when he goes to cash it. Credit card companies can.

That is my lack of info. I have no credit card.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2011, 02:40:30 pm »
I'm putting my disposable income into weaponry and fortifications.

You're late to the game

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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2011, 02:40:59 pm »
Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I was just questioning your reason for why the fee existed (to cover some cost).

I just gave you all the info I have, so I guess I am done commenting. I really don't know.
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2011, 02:41:27 pm »
They can charge the account holder for the privilege of writing a check but not the payee when he goes to cash it. Credit card companies can.

Are you sure this is true?  I think they can in fact charge a fee for cashing a check written against an account they hold.  They just currently choose not to as that would put them at a competitive disadvantage.
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« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2011, 02:44:32 pm »
Quite hilariously, back in the UK a few years ago, someone stumbled upon a never-repealed old law (19th century vintage) that stated that bank charges must reflect the bank's actual costs, and not be inflated for punitive or revenue-generating purposes.  They took their bank to court for charging 30 quid to bounce a check, and established a legal precedent that wiped out the banks' ability to fuck with people just because they wanted to.  IIRC, they proved that a bank's cost to bounce a check was a fraction of a penny, because all it took was a fraction of a second of processor time.  Soon, downloadable forms became readily available, allowing everyone to claw back from their bank all the overcharging they'd suffered over the years.  And the banks had to honour those demands.

I doubt such a law exists over here, but it would be nice...

Only if you believe banks should not exist to make a profit.  Nationalizing our banks is an option, but not a good one, I don't believe.
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2011, 02:44:42 pm »
That is my lack of info. I have no credit card.

I assume then that you write checks?  When you write a paper check for $100 to a vendor, the vendor cashes it and the bank gives them $100. When you pay with a credit card, the vendor cashes the credit slip and the bank gives them $99, or whatever the fee is.
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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2011, 02:46:00 pm »
Are you sure this is true?  I think they can in fact charge a fee for cashing a check written against an account they hold.  They just currently choose not to as that would put them at a competitive disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure they can't charge the payee, only the account holder.
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2011, 02:47:49 pm »
Quite hilariously, back in the UK a few years ago, someone stumbled upon a never-repealed old law (19th century vintage) that stated that bank charges must reflect the bank's actual costs, and not be inflated for punitive or revenue-generating purposes.  They took their bank to court for charging 30 quid to bounce a check, and established a legal precedent that wiped out the banks' ability to fuck with people just because they wanted to.  IIRC, they proved that a bank's cost to bounce a check was a fraction of a penny, because all it took was a fraction of a second of processor time.  Soon, downloadable forms became readily available, allowing everyone to claw back from their bank all the overcharging they'd suffered over the years.  And the banks had to honour those demands.

I doubt such a law exists over here, but it would be nice...

So when they signed for an account, there was no contract for fees for service? Why wouldn't a legal contract work?

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« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2011, 02:48:41 pm »
Only if you believe banks should not exist to make a profit.  Nationalizing our banks is an option, but not a good one, I don't believe.

They should make a profit, but should they be allowed to overcharge for services?  Some argue that market forces would govern this, but in banking that's not been a brake on their behaviour.  The reason they get away with charging you $30 to do something that does not hurt them in the slightest, and costs them 0.00001c, is because they all do it.

People shouldn't bounce checks, but it happens.  That event shouldn't be a windfall for a bank.
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« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2011, 02:49:59 pm »
It was just one of several new charges expected to hit consumers as new regulations crimp banks’ profits.

I don't think banks should be nationalized, but I also think it's a little rich to complain about regulations crimping profits when you're talking about the difference between making $6 billion a quarter versus making $5.5 billion.  How much money is enough, really?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 02:55:06 pm by PeteM »

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« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2011, 02:50:00 pm »
Only if you believe banks should not exist to make a profit.  Nationalizing our banks is an option, but not a good one, I don't believe.

Nationalization is not the only way to do this. This is essentially what credit unions are. They exist to provide a service, not make a profit.
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2011, 02:50:01 pm »
So when they signed for an account, there was no contract for fees for service? Why wouldn't a legal contract work?

Because the contract terms related to fees were illegal.  They were challenged in court, and the banks lost.
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2011, 02:50:33 pm »
I'm pretty sure they can't charge the payee, only the account holder.

Nope.  Happens all of the time.

Usually, though, a person cashes a check at their own bank.  The banks probably have friendly agreements amongst each other not to charge each other, which is why your bank doesnt pass a charge on to you.  Nonetheless, they can do it, and do.
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2011, 02:51:32 pm »
Interestingly enough, Louisiana has just banned the use of cash in transactions involving second-hand goods.

Lawyers: How in the hell is this legal?

What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"?
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2011, 02:51:36 pm »
I assume then that you write checks?  When you write a paper check for $100 to a vendor, the vendor cashes it and the bank gives them $100. When you pay with a credit card, the vendor cashes the credit slip and the bank gives them $99, or whatever the fee is.

Only when I have to. I don't even know where my checkbook is, to be truthful. I use my debit or cash, but mostly cash. Like I said, my knowledge ran out quickly.
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 02:51:59 pm »
I don't think banks should be nationalized, but I also think it's a little rich to complain about regulations crimping profits when you're talking about the difference between making $6 billion a quarter versus makine $5.5 billion.  How much money is enough, really?

Also, the banks borrow freely from the Fed us at zero or near-zero interest.  Then they lend it back to us at a higher interest than they pay, and make money.  At least they don't steal our underpants.
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 02:53:21 pm »
I don't think banks should be nationalized, but I also think it's a little rich to complain about regulations crimping profits when you're talking about the difference between making $6 billion a quarter versus making $5.5 billion.  How much money is enough, really?

I think that quote was from the NYT, not me. I was just providing a quote, not an argument.
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2011, 02:53:40 pm »
They should make a profit, but should they be allowed to overcharge for services?  Some argue that market forces would govern this, but in banking that's not been a brake on their behaviour.  The reason they get away with charging you $30 to do something that does not hurt them in the slightest, and costs them 0.00001c, is because they all do it.

People shouldn't bounce checks, but it happens.  That event shouldn't be a windfall for a bank.

Good lord, man.  Do you think your dinner should be billed this way too?  Your steak has a 20% markup and your drink has a 500% markup.  Deciding when and where to charge a premium is a businesses prerogative.  If they followed your model, there are all kinds of services you would suddenly start paying more for to make up for their losses elsewhere.  The belief that you'll somehow come out better in the end is false.
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2011, 02:54:28 pm »
Lawyers: How in the hell is this legal?

What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"?


Did you whizz right by the bit where it said "Louisiana"?
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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2011, 02:55:30 pm »
I think that quote was from the NYT, not me. I was just providing a quote, not an argument.

It was, sorry meant to fix it while posting.  Just edited.

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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 02:56:14 pm »
Nationalization is not the only way to do this. This is essentially what credit unions are. They exist to provide a service, not make a profit.

The banks do have huge political influence that hinder Credit Unions through regulation. I have lost many of my CU benefits due to regulations saying the banks can't compete for my services and it is unfair to them. I have little sympathy for banks that can't compete for service.
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« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2011, 02:56:47 pm »
Because the contract terms related to fees were illegal.  They were challenged in court, and the banks lost.

Gotcha. Thanks.
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« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2011, 02:57:12 pm »
Nope.  Happens all of the time.

Usually, though, a person cashes a check at their own bank.  The banks probably have friendly agreements amongst each other not to charge each other, which is why your bank doesnt pass a charge on to you.  Nonetheless, they can do it, and do.

I did not think they could but i guess they can. Still, this is the first time ever heard of such a thing.
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2011, 02:57:27 pm »
I don't think banks should be nationalized, but I also think it's a little rich to complain about regulations crimping profits when you're talking about the difference between making $6 billion a quarter versus making $5.5 billion.  How much money is enough, really?

A ridiculous comment, and unfortunatly all too common.  To look at the final number alone, out of context, to question "how much is enough" is laughable.  You have to look at profit/loss as a percentage of revenue.  You have to understand what investments were made to generate that profit and what the roi for those investments were.  Did they invest $1 to generate $6 Billion?  Did they invest $5 Billion to generate $6 Billion?
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« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2011, 02:58:34 pm »
Nationalization is not the only way to do this. This is essentially what credit unions are. They exist to provide a service, not make a profit.

Certainly, but are we as a nation going to outlaw for-profit banks?  What's next?  Meals are pretty important to society, shouldn't we do co-op restraunts too?
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« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2011, 02:59:33 pm »
Also, the banks borrow freely from the Fed us at zero or near-zero interest.  Then they lend it back to us at a higher interest than they pay, and make money.  At least they don't steal our underpants.

Dude.  The Fed WANTS THEM TO DO THIS!!!
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« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2011, 03:00:39 pm »
Certainly, but are we as a nation going to outlaw for-profit banks?  What's next?  Meals are pretty important to society, shouldn't we do co-op restraunts too?

I never suggested anything remotely resembling that.
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« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2011, 03:01:18 pm »
I did not think they could but i guess they can. Still, this is the first time ever heard of such a thing.

Read those comments!  I had never heard of it either, but it does make sense.  That's why I originally questioned your statement.  For them to not be allowed to charge a fee goes against who I thought we were.
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« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2011, 03:01:52 pm »

I never suggested anything remotely resembling that.

Yeah, went of the rails there for a second.
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« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2011, 03:03:54 pm »
Read those comments!  I had never heard of it either, but it does make sense.  That's why I originally questioned your statement.  For them to not be allowed to charge a fee goes against who I thought we were.

I didnt read any of the comments. But I tell you this, the first time I go to deposit a check and my bank says "that'll be $5 off the top", I'm finding a new bank.
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« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2011, 03:18:48 pm »
Good lord, man.  Do you think your dinner should be billed this way too?  Your steak has a 20% markup and your drink has a 500% markup.  Deciding when and where to charge a premium is a businesses prerogative.  If they followed your model, there are all kinds of services you would suddenly start paying more for to make up for their losses elsewhere.  The belief that you'll somehow come out better in the end is false.

Any markup is to cover overhead (like carrying inventory) and return a profit.  This I have no problem with.  But I see no reason that anyone would be happy that a bank can charge you for something that doesn't cost them anything.  That was the gist of the UK law.  Libertarianism suggests that market forces would correct this, but banks seem to be mostly immune to such things these days, and check-bouncers don't exactly have a powerful lobby.
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« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2011, 03:23:37 pm »
Dude.  The Fed WANTS THEM TO DO THIS!!!

I know.  They are encouraged to do this as a service to us.  When they use this ability to rip our financial balls off, they need to be curbed.  I have no sympathy for them bleating about government regulation when they happily run their businesses on government dollars.
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« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2011, 03:26:31 pm »
I didnt read any of the comments. But I tell you this, the first time I go to deposit a check and my bank says "that'll be $5 off the top", I'm finding a new bank.

I bank with Schwab because, in lieu of having branches, they refund all my ATM fees.  I cannot imagine going back to a situation where I am forced to go in search of a branch of F.U. Bank to avoid paying tree-fiddy to get my own money.
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« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2011, 03:30:34 pm »
Maybe I am confused. You could be charged for checks. You could be charged for checking accounts.

Debit cards had a transaction fee to cover the electronic transaction. New regulation limited what could be charged for the transaction, so a monthly fee was initiated (much like some checking accounts). Now, it is wrong to have that fee?

(I have to add my wife is the accountant in the family, for very good reasons, and I have a fantastic Credit Union, so much of this is more of a discussion for me.)

I'm referring to interchange fees for processing paper checks. 
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2011, 03:52:49 pm »
Any markup is to cover overhead (like carrying inventory) and return a profit.  This I have no problem with.  But I see no reason that anyone would be happy that a bank can charge you for something that doesn't cost them anything.  That was the gist of the UK law.  Libertarianism suggests that market forces would correct this, but banks seem to be mostly immune to such things these days, and check-bouncers don't exactly have a powerful lobby.

Libertarian principles rely on an underlying premise of competition.  If all the banks behave in a manner that results is less competition, in concert or not, it counter-acts any libertarian notions.  That IS the problem we have in our financial institutions.  Instead of trying to offer the best service/product to their customers, and thereby drive growth, they are looking at how other entities in the same business manage to bilk their clients using fees for non-services or non-value add items and duplicate the behavior.  It satisfies investors, not customers.  Or in other words, it's the "If they can get away with it, so will we" mentality in place of "How can I do it better?" approach. 

Ayn Rand (only mentioned because all the popular Libertarians cite her as their greatest influence) had no concept of this behavior, other than to consider it corruption.  All I can offer is, somewhere along the line, integrity became "quaint".  Personally, I use credit only as a last resort.  I am not so arrogant as to not realize I am fortunate to be able to do so. 
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« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2011, 03:59:17 pm »
Louis CK breaks it down.  (Naturally, it involves swearing).
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2011, 04:00:15 pm »
On a only-slightly-related note, has anyone else this BBC documentary? Its a trippy, big picture 3-part series that connects Rand, the Fed, Goldman Sachs, ecology, cold war defense computing and genetics all together with a good soundtrack. Its fairly inaccurate in some parts, but probably not in its primary theme. I liked it, but I'm not sure if people had seen it or not.

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« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2011, 04:01:41 pm »

Did you whizz right by the bit where it said "Louisiana"?

I believe the states have to extend full faith and credit, right?
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2011, 04:12:17 pm »
Lawyers: How in the hell is this legal?

What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"?

That makes no sense to me.

Meanwhile, our brilliant legislators have made stealing a can of Dr Pepper a felony.  You're fine if you just steal a bottle, though.
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« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2011, 04:13:44 pm »
I believe the states have to extend full faith and credit, right?

Yeah, I was just messing around.

The stupid thing is, the LA legislature wasted time doing this, and now someone is going to have to waste more time (and money) challenging the law in court.  But, like check-bouncers, I don't think buyers and sellers of second-hand goods for cash have a very big lobby.
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« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2011, 04:49:06 pm »
Somebody needs to explain to me why we haven't reinstituted Glass-Steagall.

In a recent Republican primary debate, a number of the candidates offered that they would not only repeal Dodd-Frank, but they would go back further and repeal Sarbanes-Oxley.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2011, 04:52:15 pm »
But I see no reason that anyone would be happy that a bank can charge you for something that doesn't cost them anything. 

Your premise is faulty, and even then we will probably never agree on this.
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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2011, 04:54:18 pm »
In a recent Republican primary debate, a number of the candidates offered that they would not only repeal Dodd-Frank, but they would go back further and repeal Sarbanes-Oxley.

While it has probably helped in many places, there are also real problems with Sarbanes and we all pay for it.  I'm not certain it's a net positive.
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Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2011, 05:03:58 pm »
While it has probably helped in many places, there are also real problems with Sarbanes and we all pay for it.  I'm not certain it's a net positive.

It wasn't the repeal so much as there was no offer of an alternative.  They simply have to go, and we're back to where we were before Enron, Tyco, WorldCom etc. etc.  That's no bueno.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2011, 06:12:52 pm »
It wasn't the repeal so much as there was no offer of an alternative.  They simply have to go, and we're back to where we were before Enron, Tyco, WorldCom etc. etc.  That's no bueno.

You would expect them to go into that in the Republican primary debate?  is it not also plausible that they would seek alternatives?
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2011, 07:03:42 pm »
is it not also plausible that they would seek alternatives?

With this bunch?  Not really.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2011, 12:33:49 am »
Nope.  Happens all of the time.

Usually, though, a person cashes a check at their own bank.  The banks probably have friendly agreements amongst each other not to charge each other, which is why your bank doesnt pass a charge on to you.  Nonetheless, they can do it, and do.

I'm 8 hours late to this party, but Wells Fargo did that shit to me when I was in a work study program in school.  The check had the name of the school and Wells Fargo on it but still charged me $4 to cash it because I wasn't an account holder there.  I swore I'd never have an account at that bank...then I married a girl that used to work there once and now they've got a checking account with my name on it.  Who's the sucker now?  Damn I wish I was a better Libertarian.

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2011, 05:12:13 pm »
You would expect them to go into that in the Republican primary debate?  is it not also plausible that they would seek alternatives?

At least with healthcare reform, they said they would "repeal and replace".  In the end, they just voted to repeal with no replacement on the table or in the works.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2011, 07:52:09 am »
At least with healthcare reform, they said they would "repeal and replace".  In the end, they just voted to repeal with no replacement on the table or in the works.

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Lurch

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2011, 08:38:51 am »
The rich stay healthy, the sick stay poor

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2011, 08:42:42 am »
The rich stay healthy, the sick stay poor

Shouldn't you be out occupying wall street?
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Guinness

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2011, 10:33:14 am »
Shouldn't you be out occupying wall street?

I take it you're on the side of the fence that thinks it's ok that certain companies wrecked the economy on purpose in order to profit from it?  Do you think the sick and disabled should be put out in a corn field to die so they aren't a drain on society, useless eaters that they are?

Limey

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2011, 10:55:13 am »
UPDATE:

The shitstorm of wailing triggered by the original Bloomberg article - yours truly included - appears to have been hyperbolic, now that more information is available.  The $75 trillion figure is the "notional" value of the derivatives, and does not represent the actual asset value or the potential liability, which are $66 billion and $55 billion respectively.  So says FTAlphaville.

The FDIC is still exposed to the potential failure of the derivatives, but it looks like it would be a lot harder for them to take down the subsidiary with the insured deposits (at $75 trillion, only a few have to fail, while at $55 billion the failure rate would need to be much higher, maybe even 100%).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:05:02 am by Limey »
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2011, 11:07:50 am »
Oh, I feel much better now.
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Guinness

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2011, 11:09:52 am »
UPDATE:

The shitstorm of wailing triggered by the original Bloomberg article - yours truly included - appears to have been hyperbolic, now that more information is available.  The $75 trillion figure is the "notional" value of the derivatives, and does not represent the actual asset value or the potential liability, which are $66 billion and $55 billion respectively.  So says FTAlphaville.

The FDIC is still exposed to the potential failure of the derivatives, but it looks like it would be a lot harder for them to take down the subsidiary with the insured deposits (at $75 trillion, only a few have to fail, while at $55 billion the failure rate would need to be much higher, maybe even 100%).

Yet the American Taxpayer is still on the hook.  It's like when HL&P used to ask for a 100% increase in rates, knowing the PUC would 'settle' for the 60% they really wanted.  

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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2011, 11:15:02 am »
I take it you're on the side of the fence that thinks it's ok that certain companies wrecked the economy on purpose in order to profit from it?  Do you think the sick and disabled should be put out in a corn field to die so they aren't a drain on society, useless eaters that they are?

Wouldn't they just eat the corn in the cornfield? Seems dumb to put useless eaters somewhere that's a food supply. Just sayin.
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Re: Are You Shitting Me?
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2011, 11:21:39 am »
Wouldn't they just eat the corn in the cornfield?

No.  The Walkin Dude is there.
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