Admins/Moderators...look to the Guinea Pig

[Andyzipp]

That is all.

[Taras Bulba]

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That is all.

Is this secret code that the Boras hit is on?

[Andyzipp]

I did go see The Good Shepherd yesterday, so I will neither confirm or deny that the asset is in play.

[WulawHorn]

I totally missed the entire point of that movie (the good shepherd). I asked my wife about her interpretation of the movie and didn't agree with her at all. I left confused more than anything.

[Taras Bulba]

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I totally missed the entire point of that movie (the good shepherd). I asked my wife about her interpretation of the movie and didn't agree with her at all. I left confused more than anything.

I thought the point that De Niro was trying to make was exemplified in the scene of the Soviet double agent interogation when he babbled that the Russians were "painting over the rust," alluding that the Soviets were a hollow empire that the US military industrial complex was propping up blah blah blah.  I can usually sift through that kind of stuff when a more compelling story is involved, but the movie was fairly turgid.  De Niro is reportedly fascinated with the CIA and the Cold War and I think he would have been better served by focusing more on the ins and outs of spycraft.  Also, I absolutely completely did not buy Jolie as the long suffering wife.

Speaking of spies, I was fascinated by the stuff in Clancy's "Cardinal of the Kremlin," which detailed how spies go about their business.  FWIW.

[MusicMan]

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Speaking of spies, I was fascinated by the stuff in Clancy's "Cardinal of the Kremlin," which detailed how spies go about their business.  FWIW.

Clancy's books through "The Sum of All Fears" are great reads, with a good amount of detail well balanced with story.  After that point, they slowly tailed off into egotistical bloat, with "Bear and the Dragon" and "Red Rabbit" crossing the line into unreadable.

[WulawHorn]

I loved that book.

That sounds right about the point Deniro was trying to make-that strikes me as having more truth than any point my wife was making.  Whole lot of nothing interesting to make that point imo.

[Craig]

Speaking of spy movies ... the new Bond-girl has an awesome rack.

[WulawHorn]

I'm not sure why he went all the way through Ryan becoming president (oh wait- it's b/c it probably made him 100,000,000.00 additional dollers), so I don't begrude the guy, but I think you are right, he started cranking them out quicker, with less depth and balance to them.

I think my favorite might have been Without Remorse, the tale of the making of John Clark in Baltimore in the  70's.  Thought it was great.

[toddthebod]

Also, the whole "painting over the rust," lack of spare parts is a more modern concept.  During the time period covered in the movie, the Russians actually spent the money on weapons and spare parts for those weapons, leading to the eventual missile gap betwen the US and the Soviets.

As for spy movies and disinformation, I am still partial to "The Russia House," which is also a great book.

[matadorph]

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Speaking of spy movies ... the new Bond-girl has an awesome rack.

TINWOP

[Waldo]

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Is this secret code that the Boras hit is on?

It means that a rodent just died from one of Craig's cropdusting efforts.  Biological warfare is imminent.

[austro]

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As for spy movies and disinformation, I am still partial to "The Russia House," which is also a great book.

I read that eons ago and don't remember much of it, but there was a quote that has always stuck with me, something to the effect of (as they were prepping somebody to meet with somebody else):

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I don't like lists of questions: they reveal too much about the list-maker.

[VirtualBob]

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I'm not sure why he went all the way through Ryan becoming president (oh wait- it's b/c it probably made him 100,000,000.00 additional dollers), so I don't begrude the guy, but I think you are right, he started cranking them out quicker, with less depth and balance to them.

I think my favorite might have been Without Remorse, the tale of the making of John Clark in Baltimore in the  70's.  Thought it was great.

The low point was Rainbow Six ... the first novel based on a video game (albeit one that was only release later).  Each chapter introduced a 'scenario' with more 'players' and a little more complexity.  That's when I switched to paperbacks.

Red Storm Rising was the best, though ... and very realistic on both sides.

[austro]

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Red Storm Rising was the best, though ... and very realistic on both sides.

Red Storm Rising was definitely my favorite.  But, of course, I'm an engineer and I groove on the technical detail.

[MusicMan]

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Red Storm Rising was the best, though ... and very realistic on both sides.

Red Storm Rising was definitely my favorite.  But, of course, I'm an engineer and I groove on the technical detail.

It irritates me to no end that whoever reprinted the paperbacks has "RSR" with the banner "A Jack Ryan Novel".

[toddthebod]

I loved Red Storm Rising.  It was the longest book that I ever read in one setting.  Started Friday night and finished sometime in the middle of the night Saturday night.  I got up to go to the bathroom and to get coffee and diet coke, but did nothing else.

[JB77]

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Speaking of spy movies ... the new Bond-girl has an awesome rack.

TINWOP

Links to NSFW content are not allowed on this web site.

[Guinness]

FWIW, The Guinea Pig is a pub in the UK in East Grinstead, home of the Queen Victoria hospital.  This hospital was where pilots were sent when injured during the Battle of Britain, etc, and many were horribly injured with burns.  The Queen Vic pioneered plastic surgery and skin graft techniques, basically using the pilots as, you guessed it,  guinea pigs; hence, the pub across the street where the pilots that could walk would gather was renamed the Guinea Pig.  Nice pub, lots of WWII pictures and such.

[Limey]

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Clancy's books through "The Sum of All Fears" are great reads, with a good amount of detail well balanced with story.  After that point, they slowly tailed off into egotistical bloat, with "Bear and the Dragon" and "Red Rabbit" crossing the line into unreadable.

That's about the point I bailed: half-way through the book that followed Sum of All Fears.

[geezerdonk]

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This hospital was where pilots were sent when injured during the Battle of Britain, etc, and many were horribly injured with burns.  The Queen Vic pioneered plastic surgery and skin graft techniques, basically using the pilots as, you guessed it,  guinea pigs

An unfortunate design feature of the Spitfire placed the fuel tank directly forward of the cockpit. Often when the tank was damaged, the fuel would ignite and spill directly onto the pilot.

[Limey]

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An unfortunate design feature of the Spitfire placed the fuel tank directly forward of the cockpit. Often when the tank was damaged, the fuel would ignite and spill directly onto the pilot.

Many suffered for the art of such a gorgeous aeroplane.  To see a Spit. in full flow is a treat, to hear one is divine.  Perhaps the greatest exhaust signature of all time.

Greatest gag ever told by a crap comedian on prime-time TV, that promptly got him banned for same:
Stan Boardman was on the BBC equivalent of "The Tonight Show".  He was telling a story about his father from WW2.  His Dad, you see, was a Spitfire pilot.  One day, while out on patrol, his squadron got bounced by a bunch of Fokkes (pronounced Fokker).  He shot down one of the Fokkes, but in doing so picked one up on his tail.  He ducked and dived and did everything he could think of, but he could not shake this Fokke.

The host interjected that the Fokke was an exceptionally good dogfighting aircraft, to which Stan replied "Yes.  But this Fokke was in a Messerschmitt!"

[drew corleone]

I'm not sure there was a "point." It was more of a biopic (historical fiction-wise; I've read a little bit about James Jesus Angleton, oh whom Damon's character was based, and he was an interesting guy to say the least). I thought the slow, downward-spiral angle was intriguing, and Deniro's direction gave it a Scorsese-esque feel (which is maybe why I didn't mind the unnecessarily long running time). And if nothing else the cast, minus Jolie, was outstanding.

[Guinness]

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Many suffered for the art of such a gorgeous aeroplane.  To see a Spit. in full flow is a treat, to hear one is divine.  Perhaps the greatest exhaust signature of all time.

Not to mention the beer--Shepherd's Neame Spitfire (not the bottled, the real stuff) is the finest beer in the land. Or one of them, at least.

[Limey]

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Not to mention the beer--Shepherd's Neame Spitfire (not the bottled, the real stuff) is the finest beer in the land. Or one of them, at least.

Ahhh.  A brew from my home county (I am a Man of Kent, not Kentish).

Spitfire:  "Crafted from traditional varieties of English malt, this golden ale combines an underlying depth of maltiness, tinged with a subtle hint of toffee, with the bold citrus and fruity spiciness of Kentish hops, to produce a well-balanced, thirst quenching, popular drink."

[Guinness]

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Ahhh.  A brew from my home county (I am a Man of Kent, not Kentish).

Spitfire:  "Crafted from traditional varieties of English malt, this golden ale combines an underlying depth of maltiness, tinged with a subtle hint of toffee, with the bold citrus and fruity spiciness of Kentish hops, to produce a well-balanced, thirst quenching, popular drink."

You always have to buy two--the first one always tastes so good, you drink it down straight away, so you need another one.

[Taras Bulba]

Is Spitfire available in the US?

[Limey]

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Is Spitfire available in the US?

I've not seen Spitfire here.  But you can get Neame's other great strong ale Bishop's Finger*.  Beware: 5.4% ABV.

* The dominant character of this premium ale is its generous, fruity flavour, reminiscent of bananas and pears with citrus overtones. A full-bodied, nut-brown, nourishing ale with a lingering hoppy finish, an ideal companion to food, or it can serve as a delicious digestive after a meal.

[davek]

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Many suffered for the art of such a gorgeous aeroplane.  To see a Spit. in full flow is a treat, to hear one is divine.  Perhaps the greatest exhaust signature of all time.

They have a Spit in the Galveston Air Museum...

It was down for repairs during the Fall flying days but hopefully it will be up and running next Spring...

[austro]

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They have a Spit in the Galveston Air Museum...

It was down for repairs during the Fall flying days but hopefully it will be up and running next Spring...

Should you find yourself in England with a day to spare, head to Cambridge and go to the Duxford Air Museum.  It's amazing: not only are there wonderful restorations of many, many aircraft, there are also many ongoing restoration efforts, and you can wander around and see these planes in various states of (dis)repair.  When I was there several years ago, they had just received the bones of a Zero that had been retrieved from a lake somewhere, along with a P-51, P-39, B-24 and many others that were being rebuilt.

There are also flying examples there.  They fly a DeHavilland Dragon Rapide on which you can buy a ride, and they'll usually fly one or two of the others per day if the weather is good.  When I was there they were flying a F4F Wildcat; the sound of those big, old radial engines is really something.

On top of all that, it's just out in the country by itself (I caught a bus from the rail station; about a 25-minute ride), in a setting that can only be described as pastoral.    Highly recommended.

[mihoba]

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Many suffered for the art of such a gorgeous aeroplane.  To see a Spit. in full flow is a treat, to hear one is divine.  Perhaps the greatest exhaust signature of all time.

They have a Spit in the Galveston Air Museum...

It was down for repairs during the Fall flying days but hopefully it will be up and running next Spring...

Is that the Lone Star Flight Museum? If so, they flew a restored B-17 to our local air show, it was awesome. I even paid $5 to crawl through it when it was on display.

My Grandfather was a gunner on a B-17 in the big one. I got very little info about his experiences before he passed in 1969, but I was able to tell the stories I did know to the crew at the air show and my youngest son.

[HudsonHawk]

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My Grandfather was a gunner on a B-17 in the big one. I got very little info about his experiences before he passed in 1969, but I was able to tell the stories I did know to the crew at the air show and my youngest son.

One of my ex-fiances' father was a gunner on a B-29.  He loved to tell stories.  He was shot down and a German POW too.  I could listen to his stories all day.

[astrox]

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My Grandfather was a gunner on a B-17 in the big one. I got very little info about his experiences before he passed in 1969, but I was able to tell the stories I did know to the crew at the air show and my youngest son.

One of my ex-fiances' father was a gunner on a B-29.  He loved to tell stories.  He was shot down and a German POW too.  I could listen to his stories all day.

My Pappy was co-pilot of the B-17 "Hell on Wings."  They were shot down over Germany and taken as POWs.  After 200 days in prison camp, they were liberated by Patton's 3rd Army.  As a kid, everytime we'd go to thier house, I'd ask to see his war wound, which was a crater in his foot caused by the shrapnel when the flak hit them.

[HudsonHawk]

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My Pappy was co-pilot of the B-17 "Hell on Wings."  They were shot down over Germany and taken as POWs.  After 200 days in prison camp, they were liberated by Patton's 3rd Army.  As a kid, everytime we'd go to thier house, I'd ask to see his war wound, which was a crater in his foot caused by the shrapnel when the flak hit them.

My ex's father was liberated from the POW camp by the Russians.  He says the Germans running the camp just took off one day and left the POWs.  They didn't know what to make of it, so they stayed at the camp, unguarded for like 4 or 5 days.  Then the Russians rolled in one day and explained what happened.

[das]

 

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My Grandfather was a gunner on a B-17 in the big one. I got very little info about his experiences before he passed in 1969, but I was able to tell the stories I did know to the crew at the air show and my youngest son.  

Regarding gathering info from that generation, by and large and as you know, it was not in their character to talk much about this type of stuff.  For those of you that still have fathers or grandfathers that fough in WW2, there is an opportunity to learn about some of the important history that impacted your family.  As both of my grandfathers aged, they both became less inhibited in telling the details of their deployments.  As part of the exercises to combat senility, the family gently prodded each to discuss and relive that part of the their past.  While both found the retelling of their exploits to be unfamiliar at first, both soon found it to be therepudic and liberating as they considered the decade surrounding the war to be one of the most important of their lives.  If taken the wrong way, this can sound a bit callous but in the end, we gained insight into valuable family history and both of my grandfathers appreciated that their whole legacy, not just the benign parts, would live on.

[strosrays]

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Clancy's books through "The Sum of All Fears" are great reads, with a good amount of detail well balanced with story.  After that point, they slowly tailed off into egotistical bloat, with "Bear and the Dragon" and "Red Rabbit" crossing the line into unreadable.

That's about the point I bailed: half-way through the book that followed Sum of All Fears.

I've always enjoyed discussions of Mr. Clancy and his oeuvre.

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Mr. BUCKLEY: Well, I think it was a funny review if--it's--it's--it's in the book. The Times asked me to review a book of his which I've--let me say for the record I loved "The Hunt For Red October." I thought that was a--just a crackingly good book. But Mr. Clancy, over the years, his books have gotten sort of bigger and bigger and bigger. And this book, which they asked me to review, I found--well, it was about the enemy and it is the Japanese. And I--I really found the depiction of the Japanese--well, let it be said, racist...And I said a few other things. I said that he was the most successful bad writer in American letters since James Fenimore Cooper.

And I gave some examples of some of his sentences.

LAMB: The--well, here's one. `The Indians were indeed getting frisky.'
`More surprisingly people made--made way for him, especially women and children positively shrank from his presence as though Godzilla had returned to crush their city.'
'"I will not become prime minister of my country," Hiroshi Goto announced in a m--a manner worthy of a stage actor, "in order to become executor of the economic ruin."'

BUCKLEY:  He--he's a remarkable success story. I take nothing away from him. He was an insurance salesman in Owings, Maryland, out here who just on the side tapped out this brilliant book called "Hunt For Red October." The rest was history.

I caught him just after he had become--at--when he was becoming a huge success, and I detected a germ of a fairly healthy ego. At one point he shrugged during the interview and said, `Well, heck, I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's not as though I've written "King Lear."' So--well, I--so I couldn't resist...saying, `Well, actually, we don't recall anyone suggesting that he had written "King Lear."'

And word got back to me that he was furious about that. He is--he's a man of obvious gifts. A sense of humor is not included among them...


 The Link

[Taras Bulba]

I thought only women had "oeuvres."  Is that why Clancy is able to birth so many books?

[pravata]

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I thought only women had "oeuvres."  Is that why Clancy is able to birth so many books?

He's working his way through Jane's Defense Intelligence Equipment catalog.  He just adds prepositions and viola, best selling novel.

[JimR]

he is the miltary's version of Danielle Steele.

[Limey]

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He's working his way through Jane's Defense Intelligence Equipment catalog.  He just adds prepositions and viola, best selling novel.

That was fine until he took his reluctant hero and turned him into a reluctant, but becoming ever less so, politician.

[HudsonHawk]

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he is the miltary's version of Danielle Steele.

I agree.  I don't understand the popularity of Clancy.  For my money, if you want military suspense, look no further than Alistair Maclean.

[Taras Bulba]

I enjoyed W.E.B. Griffin's "The Corps" series.  In fact, in tribute, I had a couple of glasses of "Famous Grouse" last night.  Neat.

[JimR]

i have read every one of his Jack Ryan novels and loved the early ones. the later ones became tedious to read, but i slugged through them. i do not read the other series, though.

[HudsonHawk]

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i have read every one of his Jack Ryan novels and loved the early ones. the later ones became tedious to read, but i slugged through them. i do not read the other series, though.

I liked Hunt for Red October, but that's it.  I think Clancy got too full of himself later on.

[Craig]

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he is the miltary's version of Danielle Steele.

I agree.  I don't understand the popularity of Clancy.  For my money, if you want military suspense, look no further than Alistair Maclean.

Broadsword calling Danny Boy!

[VirtualBob]

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i have read every one of his Jack Ryan novels and loved the early ones. the later ones became tedious to read, but i slugged through them. i do not read the other series, though.

You have to distinguish between two categories.  The "Jack Ryan" novels (actually written by Clancy) started off great (as noted elsewhere) and have gone downhill.  Then there are all of the "Tom Clancy's Op Center" etc. books, which are NOT written by Clancy.  He seems to have sold his name to a variety of horrible-to-mediocre beginners, possibly in return for some broad plot outline "consulting".  I have read none of them, but a quick browse of any of them in an airport bookstore is already more time than they deserve.

[VirtualBob]

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I enjoyed W.E.B. Griffin's "The Corps" series.  In fact, in tribute, I had a couple of glasses of "Famous Grouse" last night.  Neat.

His other military series were good, too ... except, of course, that they all have exactly the same plot.  

And as for Famous Grouse, if you have to settle for a blend, that's a good one.

[geezerdonk]

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I enjoyed W.E.B. Griffin's "The Corps" series.

I am embarrassed to admit it but I too enjoyed "The Corps" series. I also read "The Brotherhood of War" series. Griffin's writing is corny and hackneyed beyond belief but somehow you just keep reading. Apparently Griffin does not have an editor. Each book has several glaring continuity errors - characters change names, are in two different places at the same time, etc. And he uses more stereotypes than a John Wayne movie.

[VirtualBob]

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I enjoyed W.E.B. Griffin's "The Corps" series.

I am embarrassed to admit it but I too enjoyed "The Corps" series. I also read "The Brotherhood of War" series. Griffin's writing is corny and hackneyed beyond belief but somehow you just keep reading. Apparently Griffin does not have an editor. Each book has several glaring continuity errors - characters change names, are in two different places at the same time, etc. And he uses more stereotypes than a John Wayne movie.

I'm with you there, pilgrim.

[geezerdonk]

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For my money, if you want military suspense, look no further than Alistair Maclean.

HMS Ulysses is a top tier WWII novel. I would rank it in the same category as The War Lover, The Naked and the Dead, Catch-22 and Battle Cry.

[VirtualBob]

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For my money, if you want military suspense, look no further than Alistair Maclean.

HMS Ulysses is a top tier WWII novel. I would rank it in the same category as The War Lover, The Naked and the Dead, Catch-22 and Battle Cry.

Catch-22 was not a war novel ... at least not in the ordinary sense.  It took place, of course, in the midst of a war.  If you liked it, though, you really should read Hasek's "The Adventures of the Good Soldier Schweik in the Great War".   (Note that the Germanic "Schweik" is also sometimes spelled "Svejk" per the original Czech.)  Neither of these should be confused with "Action/War" novels, though.

[geezerdonk]

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Catch-22 was not a war novel

I'm going to have to disagree. I will say that I was incorrect to characterize Catch-22 as a WWII novel. It isn't a WWII novel, it is a war novel and it is a war novel in every sense and meaning of the phrase. It was written about and because of the author's experience during war. It was war that compelled the book. The components of the experience of war from a primary combatant's standpoint are absurdity, tragedy and nobility - in more or less equal parts, I think. From a non-combatant's standpoint a fourth major component is present - venality. The more remote from combat, the larger the component of venality becomes. Heller emphasized absurdity, maybe because that was his forte as a writer. Venality was also emphasized because it reinforced absurdity. Heller's genius was that, to the extent possible, he could communicate the experience of war.

[VirtualBob]

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Catch-22 was not a war novel

I'm going to have to disagree. I will say that I was incorrect to characterize Catch-22 as a WWII novel. It isn't a WWII novel, it is a war novel and it is a war novel in every sense and meaning of the phrase. It was written about and because of the author's experience during war. It was war that compelled the book. The components of the experience of war from a primary combatant's standpoint are absurdity, tragedy and nobility - in more or less equal parts, I think. From a non-combatant's standpoint a fourth major component is present - venality. The more remote from combat, the larger the component of venality becomes. Heller emphasized absurdity, maybe because that was his forte as a writer. Venality was also emphasized because it reinforced absurdity. Heller's genius was that, to the extent possible, he could communicate the experience of war.

I agree with most of the above and have no comnplaint with the rest (that I cannot verufy) ... I think I erred in not doing a better job of defining my terms.  A "war novel" in the sense we were using it is about war and warriers and action scenes.  In many ways it trivializes war, but at its best it can reveal the glories of battle (such as they may be).  Heller, Hasek and scores of others have written "anti-war" novels ... not so much pacifist (although tghat term might apply in these two specific instances) as in the opposite of the glorification/trivialization genre.  Rarely, and I am thinking of the Illiad & the Oddysey as examples, an author captures both aspects in a single work (or in Homer's case, two related works).  

But this whole thing has now gotten about as far away from baseball as it is possible to get.  But just as darkness is deepest just before the dawn, we are only three weeks from pitchers & catchers reporting.