Latest helping of Dick...

[Greg D]

The Link

Maybe it's reflective of my own mental condition, but I actually felt this was a relatively sane "to do" list for the Astros from our favorite baseball columnist. The Pence+Hirsh for Carl Crawford deal seems kinda steep to me, but not outrageously so.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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The Link

Maybe it's reflective of my own mental condition, but I actually felt this was a relatively sane "to do" list for the Astros from our favorite baseball columnist. The Pence+Hirsh for Carl Crawford deal seems kinda steep to me, but not outrageously so.

Sheesh... I hate when I can only nitpick the "Wheel".  Two things, really.  One, I'd say Pence and Buchholtz.  Hirsh looks to be the best of the young pitchers.  Buchholtz is talented but has more progress to make.  Second, Soriano had a career year after a 4 yr decline.  I suspected he was immature when I watched him in Dallas, with his refusal to move to the OF, and then was convinced by the drama surrounding his move to the OF for the Nationals.  Any team who goes after Soriano gets that plus Satan's (a.k.a. Scott Boras') ambassador to the clubhouse, similar to the Rangers with A-Rod, Chan Ho Park, etc...  Soriano ain't worth the price of admission.  Lee is my preference.  Again, I'm nit-picking and some of the costs (Pence and Buchholtz) are high but Crawford is really blossoming and could be one of those rare players that does it all.  Imagine a lineup of

Willy T - (in RF to make room for Lee in LF, with Crawford covering CF.  Subject to debate, of course)
Crawford
Berkman
Lee
Huff
Biggio/Burke
Everett
Ausmus/Gimenez/Quinterro

That lineup is still week, in a sense, at the tail end but probably not in comparison to other's teams production in the same spots.  Plus, I think with maybe 1 exception (Lee) you have solid to good (even outstanding) defense. And even in Lee's situation, I suspect the defense is not as bad as reported.

[MusicMan]

There is absolutely no reason to put Crawford in CF, then WT in RF.

[HPFRic]

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The Pence+Hirsh for Carl Crawford deal seems kinda steep to me, but not outrageously so.

were it me, they'd have to invent a new measurement for recording time intervals if i could get carl crawford for ANY combination of our prospects because i'd say "yes" that quickly.

[Limey]

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Sheesh... I hate when I can only nitpick the "Wheel".

Just wait a few days.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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There is absolutely no reason to put Crawford in CF, then WT in RF.

Well, I didn't mean it as an absolute.  But those two have cover the bulk of the OF as Lee is limited in LF.  Oh...what the hell?  This is all hypothetical B.S.  Whatever would serve as the optimal defensive OF, in this dream sequence of events, is fine with me.

[jbm]

I would have to be pretty sure that Crawford will continue to improve before I would even think about dealing that kind of talent/potential for him.  Crawford does seem like a guy that is steadily improving, but as always, continued improvement is far from certain.  

I would price him as someone I could expext 830 level production, and maybe pay a slight premium for his upside, but a Pence/Hirsh deal seems way too steep.  Pence might provide that level of production himself, not to mention how good Hirsh might be and the salary effects of trading cheap young guys for more expensive vets.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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I would have to be pretty sure that Crawford will continue to improve before I would even think about dealing that kind of talent/potential for him.  Crawford does seem like a guy that is steadily improving, but as always, continued improvement is far from certain.  

I would price him as someone I could expext 830 level production, and maybe pay a slight premium for his upside, but a Pence/Hirsh deal seems way too steep.  Pence might provide that level of production himself, not to mention how good Hirsh might be and the salary effects of trading cheap young guys for more expensive vets.

As much as I enjoy following the Astros minor leagues and player development, you are putting a great deal of value in a AA hitter that has yet to even play AAA, let alone break into the majors.  Somehow, everyone thinks a guy who's averaged a +.800 OPS in the majors is common or average.  Neither is true.  Add in that Crawford is a pretty good defender and you have a really nice player.  Last, you give up talent to get talent.  There's no way around that.

[Bench]

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I would have to be pretty sure that Crawford will continue to improve before I would even think about dealing that kind of talent/potential for him.  Crawford does seem like a guy that is steadily improving, but as always, continued improvement is far from certain.  

I would price him as someone I could expext 830 level production, and maybe pay a slight premium for his upside, but a Pence/Hirsh deal seems way too steep.  Pence might provide that level of production himself, not to mention how good Hirsh might be and the salary effects of trading cheap young guys for more expensive vets.

I don't see how you can compare questioning whether or not a proven all-star entering his prime "continuing to improve" with two completely unproven prospects. We're not talking about a young Ken Griffey Jr. with Pence. Crawford would be one hell of a bird in hand.

[HPFRic]

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I would have to be pretty sure that Crawford will continue to improve before I would even think about dealing that kind of talent/potential for him.

crawford's OPS each year since becoming a full-time player:
'03: .671
'04: .781
'05: .800
'06: .831

and he's 25. hell, even if he DOESN'T improve, but maintains his current level of production, he's a significant upgrade to this offense. my southern region literally fills with blood at the thought of crawford being an astro.

plus, i think he's signed reasonably cheap thru, like, 2009. he's a no-brainer.

[jbm]

Crawford average OPS for his major league career is 760.  Personally, I value him at a much higher level.  A quick look at left fielder stats from this year yielded eleven players with 850+ OPS, so Crawford's 830 OPS this year is hardly exceptional.  But basically, I agree that Crawford is a very good player and that one must give talent to get talent, but I apparently place a higher value on Pence and Hirsh.  

Based on my assumption that Crawford will be soon making much more, I don't think the salary considerations can be brushed aside; they have ripple effects on the flexibility to strengthen other parts of the roster.

[HPFRic]

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Based on my assumption that Crawford will be soon making much more...

your assumption is incorrect. from the st. pete somethingoranother - times, maybe?:
On Friday, they signed All-Star outfielder Carl Crawford to a six-year contract that could be worth more than $31 million.

The agreement includes two one-year club options covering the 2009 and 2010 seasons, Crawford's first two years of free agency.

oh, btw, where did pence's OPS rank last year among ML'ers? you do realize crawford's only 20 months older than pence and already has FOUR full ML seasons under his belt, right?

[jbm]

The issue at hand is not Pence for Crawford, it is Pence AND Hirsh for Crawford.  Does Hirsh have no value to you?

[Browneye]

I like Lee, but after watching Soriano this year in Washington with the 40hr,40sb and 40dbls, I just cant put him behind Lee. But, there is always the Boras factor and he may not be worth the headache.

[HPFRic]

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The issue at hand is not Pence for Crawford, it is Pence AND Hirsh for Crawford.  Does Hirsh have no value to you?

in relation to getting crawford? no. zero. i'd trade any and every unproven "prospect" for carl crawford. hell, if tampa bay asked for the entire corpus christi franchise, i'd have to give that serious thought.

i have zero investment in prospects. i'll take a proven ML'er any day and 53 times on sunday. if said ML'er happens to also be just 25, showing signs of having an unlimited ceiling and is signed cheaply thru 2010, my interest stops being measured and enters the same rarified realm as that piercing sound only dogs can hear.

[Ty in Tampa]

You're not watching Carl Crawford enough.

[Ty in Tampa]

I have the feeling TB might just ask for Corpus. They will most certainly want the best and most pitching they can get if they deal CC. That will not be a very popular move for an already not-so-popular franchise.

[jbm]

 

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 i'd trade any and every unproven "prospect" for carl crawford. hell, if tampa bay asked for the entire corpus christi franchise, i'd have to give that serious thought.

Really now?  Without doing a lot of analysis of the subject, I suspect most successful clubs (that cannot spend 200 million) build their club from within.  Let's simply say that they place a little more value on their farm system than you.  

btw, Carl Crawford has "unlimited ceiling"?  Are you expecting him to one day slug 600 with a much improved OBP, or hit 370.  Just what are you expecting?

[BizidyDizidy]

Carl? Is that you?

[HPFRic]

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I suspect most successful clubs (that cannot spend 200 million) build their club from within.  Let's simply say that they place a little more value on their farm system than you.

we're not talking about a 31-year old OFer losing bat speed. crawford just turned 25 in august; he's a mere 20 months older than hunter pence and just 6 months older than jason hirsh. he's the VERY DEFINITION of the kind of player every team wants to build around.

last year, he led the al in triples and stolen bases and was 10th in hits. he would have led the astros in Hs, SBs, 3Bs, and would have been second in SLG%, RsBI, and Rs. as a #2 hitter this year, he led all of MLB in slg% (.553) and was 6th in ob% (.361). now imagine lance berkman sitting in the on-deck circle for his 600 abs...

at one point can we expect similiar results from jason hirsh and/or hunter pence and/or any other still-unproven propect?

[Greg M]

Crawford would have to bat leadoff or Lance would have to hit cleanup.  Lance doesn't want the league leader in steals batting before him.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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Crawford would have to bat leadoff or Lance would have to hit cleanup.  Lance doesn't want the league leader in steals batting before him.

I can be slow at times so I'll just ask.  Where is the punchline?

[pravata]

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I have the feeling TB might just ask for Corpus. They will most certainly want the best and most pitching they can get if they deal CC. That will not be a very popular move for an already not-so-popular franchise.

More from the locals,

From the Tampa Bay websites' mail bag, after some Braves fan suggests a trade of Braves crap for Carl Crawford,

"Crawford is the best player in franchise history and he keeps getting better every year. The Braves players you mention are good players, but are any of the three an impact player? I don't think so. Crawford is potentially a guy who can have 30 home runs, 100 RBIs, a .300 average with 50 steals every season, not to mention the disruption he creates with the other team's defense. He's an impact player whom I believe is a superstar in the making."
The Link

from a local paper
"As for immediate needs, the Rays want to improve their infield defense and strengthen the bullpen. They want to upgrade the starting pitching, but Friedman said trades are not a likely option."

"We feel like we have depth in the starting pitching area, and, more importantly, some pretty good arms," executive vice president Andrew Friedman said. "Obviously, if we can upgrade, we will. But it's not priority One A." The Link

Hirsh, Buchholtz, Patton, whatever, doesn't appear they'll be impressed.  Dan Wheeler and Chris Burke, guys like that, on the other hand might get the foot in the door. Maybe.

[HPFRic]

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Dan Wheeler and Chris Burke

done. throw in nieve, too. and then they can pick among our starters not named hirsh (in terms of prospects).

[pravata]

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Dan Wheeler and Chris Burke

done. throw in nieve, too. and then they can pick among our starters not named hirsh (in terms of prospects).

Every baseball team on the planet is going to be throwing their maybes at Tampa Bay.  I saw another article warning the young VP Friedman that trading Crawford would be a career defining move, his "Abreu trade" they said.  And as Gerry Hunsicker is his minder, he could say something about Abreu type deals.  Nieve, Hirsh, whoever, Pinwheel should've picked up a damn phone and called somebody in TB before printing irresponsible crap.  He's a well connected reporter supposebly?  I've done 5 minutes on the Internet and realized that a Crawford to Houston deal is a long way off.  Why print this and stir up the masses? Oh, to stir up the masses.

[Ty in Tampa]

 

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I saw another article warning the young VP Friedman that trading Crawford would be a career defining move, his "Abreu trade" they said. And as Gerry Hunsicker is his minder, he could say something about Abreu type deals.

This is why I don't think Crawford is going anywhere. The Abreu situation stings here, too.

[HPFRic]

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I've done 5 minutes on the Internet and realized that a Crawford to Houston deal is a long way off.  Why print this and stir up the masses? Oh, to stir up the masses.

well, sure - they'd be maroons to deal him.

in justice's defense, however, he's not "reporting" anything; he's offering his "solutions" to the astros, which includes a license to speculate.

and i would, vomit-inducing as it may be, agree with him that there's no harm in heading out to the tampa bay-st. pete area for a little game i like to call, "how much vodka can you hold in your mouth at one time and, oh, by the way, how 'bout wandy rodriguez and ty gainey for carl crawford?"

[pravata]

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I've done 5 minutes on the Internet and realized that a Crawford to Houston deal is a long way off.  Why print this and stir up the masses? Oh, to stir up the masses.

well, sure - they'd be maroons to deal him.

in justice's defense, however, he's not "reporting" anything; he's offering his "solutions" to the astros, which includes a license to speculate.

and i would, vomit-inducing as it may be, agree with him that there's no harm in heading out to the tampa bay-st. pete area for a little game i like to call, "how much vodka can you hold in your mouth at one time and, oh, by the way, how 'bout wandy rodriguez and ty gainey for carl crawford?"

No harm? No, in fact it would be negligent of the Astros not to.  However, Justice puts himself out as a professional reporter with extraordinary access.  Not some fat, out of work, inbred, Republican sitting at his computer typing in his underwear.  He's supposed to know something.  But, he's acting as if the deal would be right there for the taking.  Any, anyone who has thought about Crawford for 2 seconds, and done a little looking, knows a trade to the Astros is unlikely.  This blog crap does 2 things, 1. gives him another article to write about how Purpura shouldve traded for Crawford and b. stirs up controversy, same as his Rodriguez crap, just stirring the pot with irresponsible yammering about another deal that has not a whisper of happening.

[HPFRic]

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He's supposed to know something.

i don't TOTALLY disagree with you; but there was nothing inherently irresponsible about this paticular piece:

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5. Telephone the Devil Rays and say: ''You've said you won't trade Carl Crawford. If that's set in stone, we're sorry for bothering you. However, if you change your mind, give us a shot at him. Better yet, name any package of young players. Hunter Pence and Jason Hirsh? Consider it done. Anything else?

[jbm]

Justice wrote about Crawford near the all-star break, IIRC.  Crawford has always been one of his favorites.  

I thought Tampa had a glut in the making in their outfield.  They have Crawford, Baldelli, and Young, and I read speculation that Upton might ultimately end up the outfield also.  If so, they might be looking to move somebody.  

At any rate, as a left handed left fielder, Crawford doesn't fill a pressing need for the Astros.

[pravata]

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He's supposed to know something.

i don't TOTALLY disagree with you; but there was nothing inherently irresponsible about this paticular piece:

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5. Telephone the Devil Rays and say: ''You've said you won't trade Carl Crawford. If that's set in stone, we're sorry for bothering you. However, if you change your mind, give us a shot at him. Better yet, name any package of young players. Hunter Pence and Jason Hirsh? Consider it done. Anything else?

Richard Justice pretends to be someone who knows something about baseball.  99% of the people in Houston do not know anything about baseball.  If Richard Justice suggests that Tim Purpura could easily trade 2 unknown commodities for Carl Crawford, then those fans are going to think, "yeah why doesnt Purpura just trade for Crawford, Justice says it would be a snap."  As we've just seen Tampa Bay has no intention of trading Carl Crawford for unknowns. It's crap and it's easily proven crap, it adds to the burden of stupid weighing down Houston sports fans.  It's just like the warning about trading for ARod.  Houston has no chance of trading for ARod.  Now the 99% are thinking "yeah why doesn't Purpura just trade for ARod?"  And the burden becomes heavier.  Meanwhile Justice fills up his space with typing about his imaginary tea parties.

[pravata]

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Justice wrote about Crawford near the all-star break, IIRC.  Crawford has always been one of his favorites. ...

Why wouldn't he be? The suggestion that obtaining Crawford hasn't crossed Purpura's mind is absurd. Again, more tea party speculation.

[HPFRic]

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Richard Justice pretends to be someone who knows something about baseball. 99% of the people in Houston do not know anything about baseball. If Richard Justice suggests that Tim Purpura could easily trade 2 unknown commodities for Carl Crawford, then those fans are going to think, "yeah why doesnt Purpura just trade for Crawford, Justice says it would be a snap."

so is your objection that he didn't go out and research viable trade options in relation to what the d-ray may actually need? had he listed, say, burke, nieve and qualls, would you have been ok with it?

if so, ok; i see where you're coming from. but i still don't think this is near as egregious as most of his spittle. it's wild speculation; he frames it as such; he makes it clear crawford is probably not likely to be available... where's the harm?

if, six months from now, he's shoving his fist up purpura's ass and demanding to know why carl crawford's still a d-ray and not an astro, then yes, justice has blown his usual mess of vapid stupidity upon all of us yet again. but i just don't think that's the case here.

[pravata]

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Richard Justice pretends to be someone who knows something about baseball. 99% of the people in Houston do not know anything about baseball. If Richard Justice suggests that Tim Purpura could easily trade 2 unknown commodities for Carl Crawford, then those fans are going to think, "yeah why doesnt Purpura just trade for Crawford, Justice says it would be a snap."

so is your objection that he didn't go out and research viable trade options in relation to what the d-ray may actually need? had he listed, say, burke, nieve and qualls, would you have been ok with it?

if so, ok; i see where you're coming from. but i still don't think this is near as egregious as most of his spittle. it's wild speculation; he frames it as such; he makes it clear crawford is probably not likely to be available... where's the harm?

if, six months from now, he's shoving his fist up purpura's ass and demanding to know why carl crawford's still a d-ray and not an astro, then yes, justice has blown his usual mess of vapid stupidity upon all of us yet again. but i just don't think that's the case here.

I'd like to know how he justifies distinguishing himself from "fat, unemployed right-wingers with computers" if all he has to offer is his uninformed speculation?

[Ty in Tampa]

I think prav's point is that anybody can come up with that shit. But Dick sits high up on the Chron masthead and that shouldn't be where gossipy blogspeak comes from.

[pravata]

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I think prav's point is that anybody can come up with that shit. But Dick sits high up on the Chron masthead and that shouldn't be where gossipy blogspeak comes from.

Right, if he has any hope of being taken seriously.  Which he very much seems to want to be.  Especially since he is so insulting to the people who disagree with him. And, as the blog, (if you can call it that) is heavily moderated we can't see the replies he's refering to.  He needs to invest in a drawer full of bunchless panties.

[seib22]

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I think prav's point is that anybody can come up with that shit. But Dick sits high up on the Chron masthead and that shouldn't be where gossipy blogspeak comes from.

This IS the chronicle we're talking about here.

[HPFRic]

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I'd like to know how he justifies distinguishing himself from "fat, unemployed right-wingers with computers" if all he has to offer is his uninformed speculation?

but what, exactly, is he speculating about? crawford's availability? no. the astros' interest? no. there's nothing substantive in the piece.

again, i suppose you could argue he was lazy for not doing some legwork and figuring what might actually pique the d-ray interest. and you could certainly rip him for a stupid, snarky comment he made in a previous blog. but beyond that... i don't find what he said in this instance egregious at all.

[pravata]

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I'd like to know how he justifies distinguishing himself from "fat, unemployed right-wingers with computers" if all he has to offer is his uninformed speculation?

but what, exactly, is he speculating about? crawford's availability? no. the astros' interest? no. there's nothing substantive in the piece.

again, i suppose you could argue he was lazy for not doing some legwork and figuring what might actually pique the d-ray interest. and you could certainly rip him for a stupid, snarky comment he made in a previous blog. but beyond that... i don't find what he said in this instance egregious at all.

I can't understand it for you.

[HPFRic]

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I think prav's point is that anybody can come up with that shit. But Dick sits high up on the Chron masthead and that shouldn't be where gossipy blogspeak comes from.

gossipy? how so? it'd be one thing if he had speculated about crawford's availability, making it seem likely that he would, in fact, be on the open market. or had he set pupura up to fail with intentionally misleading and inaccurate information about crawford's availability. but he did neither.

he clearly states, "'You've said you won't trade Carl Crawford. If that's set in stone, we're sorry for bothering you."

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Especially since he is so insulting to the people who disagree with him. And, as the blog, (if you can call it that) is heavily moderated we can't see the replies he's refering to. He needs to invest in a drawer full of bunchless panties.

that was a completely different post; this one's harmless.

i mean, yes - the guy's a fucktard. goes w/o saying. but i think his fucktardness is coloring your view of this paticular topic.

[pravata]

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I think prav's point is that anybody can come up with that shit. But Dick sits high up on the Chron masthead and that shouldn't be where gossipy blogspeak comes from.

gossipy? how so? it'd be one thing if he had speculated about crawford's availability, making it seem likely that he would, in fact, be on the open market. or had he set pupura up to fail with intentionally misleading and inaccurate information about crawford's availability. but he did neither.

he clearly states, "'You've said you won't trade Carl Crawford. If that's set in stone, we're sorry for bothering you."

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Especially since he is so insulting to the people who disagree with him. And, as the blog, (if you can call it that) is heavily moderated we can't see the replies he's refering to. He needs to invest in a drawer full of bunchless panties.

that was a completely different post; this one's harmless.

i mean, yes - the guy's a fucktard. goes w/o saying. but i think his fucktardness is coloring your view of this paticular topic.

Yes, he does put enough qualifiers in his imaginary conversations to allow plausible deniability later.  So, for you, every time he writes something his authority has a fresh start?  There is no reference to his reputation and what he has written the day before?  YOU are his target audience.

[HPFRic]

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So, for you, every time he writes something his authority has a fresh start?  There is no reference to his reputation and what he has written the day before?  YOU are his target audience.

again, 9.9 out of 10 times, i would agree with you. he often prints erroneous, misguided, ill-informed conjecture that eeks its way into the culture of douchebags who put stock in what he has to say and will use (as he inevitably will do as well) his empty, knowledge-less rhetoric to later hold the local teams to an unrealistic standard.

but i just think this is one of those rare 0.1 circumstances in which he's covered his bases and that if a standard is eventually set from this paticularly harmless post, it's the fault of the douchebags, not justice.

[Greg D]

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Dan Wheeler and Chris Burke, guys like that, on the other hand might get the foot in the door.

Shit, I'd do that one too.

Sorry. Now back to more pinwheel pummeling.