Author Topic: So Much For Carlos Lee  (Read 14015 times)

Alkie

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So Much For Carlos Lee
« on: August 22, 2006, 02:08:58 pm »
El Caballo signs Satan to be his master.

Fucking Boras.

austro

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 02:13:48 pm »
Quote:

El Caballo signs Satan to be his master.



Well, now, this will be interesting.  I don't think there could be a much more well-defined experiment to determine whether Boras has been black-listed by the Astros.
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Alkie

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 02:16:13 pm »
I tend to agree, but I don't think we'll know now anyway.  Lee will be a Yankee or whatever team is dumb enough to pay him $18m per.

I hope that's not us.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 02:17:09 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

El Caballo signs Satan to be his master.



Well, now, this will be interesting.  I don't think there could be a much more well-defined experiment to determine whether Boras has been black-listed by the Astros.





Not to dismiss Drayton Mclane's contempt for this nefarious slug, but it may also be the other way around.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 02:19:30 pm »
You don't think Boras would gladly take 10% of whatever he can hose the highest bidder (whomever that is) out of?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 02:24:01 pm »
Quote:

You don't think Boras would gladly take 10% of whatever he can hose the highest bidder (whomever that is) out of?




Mets were less than 10% over what the Astros offered for Beltran and the Astros were never offered access to his client/bait/tool the way the Mets were.  At 11:30 this snake was still calling the Yankees with offers in the 90's.  I think he's avoiding placing his clients in the Houston market

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 02:36:15 pm »
Quote:

Not to dismiss Drayton Mclane's contempt for this nefarious slug, but it may also be the other way around.



That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it from that point of view.  I assumed Boras was essentially a pimp who didn't care who the money came from, but he probably has a more involved strategy than that.  Like maintaining a consistent pipeline for his best customers.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 02:37:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

You don't think Boras would gladly take 10% of whatever he can hose the highest bidder (whomever that is) out of?




Mets were less than 10% over what the Astros offered for Beltran and the Astros were never offered access to his client/bait/tool the way the Mets were.  At 11:30 this snake was still calling the Yankees with offers in the 90's.  I think he's avoiding placing his clients in the Houston market





Boras gets his 10-15% of ALL of his players income.  There are more advertising/marketing opportunities in New York & LA than there are anywhere else in the country.

Laying on a matress for Gallery Furniture can't be worth very much.

MusicMan

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 02:40:22 pm »
I wasn't convinced before that Lee was a great fit.  Now I'm certain of it.

Someone call Andruw Jones and ask if he'd be willing to waive his 10/5 rights to play on Tal's Hill.
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HPFRic

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2006, 02:54:27 pm »
you guys are acting like carlos lee is some mute puppet prone to move and contort whichever way his puppetmaster sees fit. doesn't he own a ranch in or near houston?

my guess is that he'll take one look at the crawford boxes (which... ya know, he's probably already seen, really, but, for dramatic effect) and think, "i wouldn't mind abusing that like a saigon whore for the next 5-7 years. where do i sign?"

i mean, really, when you think about it, neither the doodle dandys nor the northeastern bandwagon need a LF, so who among the useless leftover flotsam could overpay lee and provide a great fit not to mention proximity to his ranch in or near houston?

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2006, 02:56:34 pm »
I'm a little dissappointed by this news as I did think Lee would be a great addition to this team.  But what can you do?  

I don't know why anyone would think the Yankees are interested in Lee.  They will have Abreu, Matsui, Damon and maybe Sheffield in the OF.  They have Giambi at 1B/DH.  So, unless they expect to sit Lee or any of the  other named players semi-regularly, it just doesn't make sense.  Combined with the fact that the Yankees need pitching, this makes even less sense.  

If Lee can play RF, the Mets and Red Sox may be players.   But with Milledge deemed a LF and Manny in Boston, LF is not open for Lee with either of those teams.  That's probably why he hired Boras, to create demand where there appears to be less than optimum interest at this time.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2006, 02:59:35 pm »
Quote:

you guys are acting like carlos lee is some mute puppet prone to move and contort whichever way his puppetmaster sees fit. doesn't he own a ranch in or near houston?




I think the phrase, "You don't put on a condom unless you're going to fuck" applies here.

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.

Quote:

i mean, really, when you think about it, neither the doodle dandys nor the northeastern bandwagon need a LF, so who among the useless leftover flotsam could overpay lee and provide a great fit not to mention proximity to his ranch in or near houston?




And there's the rub... Lee is bound to end up at 1b.  Since the Yankees are considering a one-year option to move Sheffield to 1b, and the Red Sox are still running Youkilis out there, they're actually both alternatives.

Not to mention Tom Hicks' long history of playing catcher for Boras.
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Bench

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 03:18:40 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

you guys are acting like carlos lee is some mute puppet prone to move and contort whichever way his puppetmaster sees fit. doesn't he own a ranch in or near houston?




I think the phrase, "You don't put on a condom unless you're going to fuck" applies here.

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.

Quote:

i mean, really, when you think about it, neither the doodle dandys nor the northeastern bandwagon need a LF, so who among the useless leftover flotsam could overpay lee and provide a great fit not to mention proximity to his ranch in or near houston?




And there's the rub... Lee is bound to end up at 1b.  Since the Yankees are considering a one-year option to move Sheffield to 1b, and the Red Sox are still running Youkilis out there, they're actually both alternatives.

Not to mention Tom Hicks' long history of playing catcher for Boras.





I thought Sheffield was gone from the Yanks after this year. When the Abreu deal was made I recall hearing that the likely fallout is Sheffield not re-signed/option picked up for next season.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2006, 03:22:24 pm »
Outside of advertisements for the Mets, I have yet to see a commercial (print or tv; local or national) featuring Beltran.  So if the idea of coming to New York was to increase his advertising dollars that has pretty much been a big fat zero.  Fucking Boras.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2006, 03:22:48 pm »
That still leaves Damon, Abreu and Matsui.  The only benefit is Lee hits right handed.  And I don't see Lee helping the Yankee's pitching situation at all.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2006, 03:24:24 pm »
Quote:

Outside of advertisements for the Mets, I have yet to see a commercial (print or tv; local or national) featuring Beltran.  So if the idea of coming to New York was to increase his advertising dollars that has pretty much been a big fat zero.  Fucking Boras.




Yet!  Beltran didn't really awe the fans last year, did he.  If he shines in the playoffs this year, he'll get his whore money.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2006, 03:26:23 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Outside of advertisements for the Mets, I have yet to see a commercial (print or tv; local or national) featuring Beltran.  So if the idea of coming to New York was to increase his advertising dollars that has pretty much been a big fat zero.  Fucking Boras.




Yet!  Beltran didn't really awe the fans last year, did he.  If he shines in the playoffs this year, he'll get his whore money.





Especially if he wins the NL MVP to boot. He's definately in the running, if not the frontrunner.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 03:32:02 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Outside of advertisements for the Mets, I have yet to see a commercial (print or tv; local or national) featuring Beltran.  So if the idea of coming to New York was to increase his advertising dollars that has pretty much been a big fat zero.  Fucking Boras.




Yet!  Beltran didn't really awe the fans last year, did he.  If he shines in the playoffs this year, he'll get his whore money.




Especially if he wins the NL MVP to boot. He's definately in the running, if not the frontrunner.




If that happens, the NY media will by spouting off how Beltran has already had a HOF career, and an MVP trophy was icing on the cake...  blah blah blah..
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 03:34:08 pm »
Quote:

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.



then what's the issue? if houston's the team offering top dollar and lee wants to play here....

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 03:44:02 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.



then what's the issue? if houston's the team offering top dollar and lee wants to play here....

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.





I don't think anyone is guaranteeing NY involvement.  But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.  If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston.  Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston.  And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 03:49:56 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.



then what's the issue? if houston's the team offering top dollar and lee wants to play here....

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.




I don't think anyone is guaranteeing NY involvement.  But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.  If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston.  Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston.  And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.




Boras actively tried to sell his client to the Yankees for far less money than the Astros were offering.  Up until the last day the Astros were the top bidder for Beltran.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 03:59:53 pm »
Lee isn't my #1 target this offseason.  I would have to look at the list of FAs to determine if he is even in top 5.

Schmidt would be my #1 target.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2006, 04:12:52 pm »
Do we have one of said lists? Off the top of my head there are the big guys but what about the more Huffian calibur of player?

Depending on whether or not Pettitte comes back next year, I agree adding pitching is a priority but I think it still comes behind a power bat (especially if the Astros younger pitchers get a lot of innings in September).

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2006, 04:15:02 pm »
Quote:

But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.



never concluded that.

Quote:

If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston. Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston. And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.



it takes 4 to tango in this scenario: a big market team; lee; boras and a smaller market pawn.

but if big market teams aren't in the running, boras can't just pull figures from his ass. or rather, he can try, but no one's going to bite.

when you then factor in lee's (supposed) interest in houston, and i don't see why this is such a far-fecthed idea.

we know the astros were/are interested; we know lee has some ties here.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2006, 04:16:08 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.



then what's the issue? if houston's the team offering top dollar and lee wants to play here....

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.




I don't think anyone is guaranteeing NY involvement.  But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.  If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston.  Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston.  And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.




Boras actively tried to sell his client to the Yankees for far less money than the Astros were offering.  Up until the last day the Astros were the top bidder for Beltran.




Wasn't that rumored more than well documented?  Not that I dispute this account. I simply don't recall whether the source of this are the same reporters involved in the rumored Oswalt, Lidge, and Clemens deadline fiasco.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2006, 04:17:30 pm »

Quote:


but if big market teams aren't in the running, boras can't just pull figures from his ass. or rather, he can try, but no one's going to bite.





Which is exactly what he does, and gets away with it too.
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MusicMan

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2006, 04:19:36 pm »
Quote:

boras can't just pull figures from his ass. or rather, he can try, but no one's going to bite.




Again, I refer you to Boras v Hicks, a matchup as one-sided as Stoops v Franchione or Life v Federline.

Boras could tell Hicks that Lee was being offered the small island of Manhattan and Hicks would not only believe it, but offer to throw in Hawaii.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2006, 04:20:25 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.



never concluded that.





My mistake

Quote:

Quote:

If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston. Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston. And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.



it takes 4 to tango in this scenario: a big market team; lee; boras and a smaller market pawn.
but if big market teams aren't in the running, boras can't just pull figures from his ass. or rather, he can try, but no one's going to bite.




Ask Hicks about that one


Quote:

when you then factor in lee's (supposed) interest in houston, and i don't see why this is such a far-fecthed idea.

we know the astros were/are interested; we know lee has some ties here.





The key being "supposed" interest, right?  I'll give that more value when it comes from Lee's mouth.  Until then, hiring Boras says alot more about his expectations compared to any supposed ties to Houston.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2006, 04:44:47 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You don't hire Boras unless you're going for top dollar, regardless of location.



then what's the issue? if houston's the team offering top dollar and lee wants to play here....

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.




I don't think anyone is guaranteeing NY involvement.  But to conclude Boras is not an indication of Lee's preference for a top dollar contract is foolish.  If McLane offers the most money, Lee might sign in Houston.  Don't bet on that being the case because other teams will do their best to drive up Lee's price for Houston.  And if they don't, expect Boras to drive up the price any way he can.




Boras actively tried to sell his client to the Yankees for far less money than the Astros were offering.  Up until the last day the Astros were the top bidder for Beltran.




Wasn't that rumored more than well documented?  Not that I dispute this account. I simply don't recall whether the source of this are the same reporters involved in the rumored Oswalt, Lidge, and Clemens deadline fiasco.




I don't know how something like that could be particular "documented".  Here's the synopsis of the waning hours.  It's from the Village Voice so some might not accept the credibility.  However, I'm certain I posted some news stories from different sources at the time, sounds like something I'd do, but can't find them,

In Beltran's case, agent Scott Boras similarly succeeded in forcing the player's old club, the Houston Astros, to increase its offer of six years for $96 million to seven years for a reported $108 million?only to then demand a no-trade clause on top of that. When Houston, under a time deadline for negotiating because Beltran had rejected its offer of salary arbitration, balked at the no-trade addition, Boras apparently offered the outfielder to the Yankees at a "bargain" price of $100 million for six years before delivering his client to the Mets for seven years, $119 million (that offset the Houston offer?no state income tax in Texas) and the no-trade clause, of course. All of this took place in the space of a few scant hours on Saturday, January 8. That's how tenuous the emergence of Carlos Beltran as the (now) presumptive savior of the "new" Mets really was.  Link

As for Boras' manipulation and control of his client, Beltran was unaware that for weeks Mclane had been trying to set up a face to face meeting, through Boras who would not even return calls, during the negotiations.  A meeting that was readily available to the Mets.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2006, 04:48:21 pm »
Quote:

Do we have one of said lists? Off the top of my head there are the big guys but what about the more Huffian calibur of player?

Depending on whether or not Pettitte comes back next year, I agree adding pitching is a priority but I think it still comes behind a power bat (especially if the Astros younger pitchers get a lot of innings in September).





I'm sure there are many, but here's one.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2006, 04:49:36 pm »
Quote:

Lee isn't my #1 target this offseason.  I would have to look at the list of FAs to determine if he is even in top 5.

Schmidt would be my #1 target.





Holy shit, you must be well off. Can I borrow some money, or at least get on your target list somehow?
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MusicMan

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2006, 05:07:21 pm »
Actually, the additional amount in NY didn't even offset the state taxes, IIRC my calculations at the time.

Which matters not to Boras, of course, because he takes his cut from the top.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2006, 05:11:21 pm »
Quote:

but if big market teams aren't in the running, boras can't just pull figures from his ass. or rather, he can try, but no one's going to bite.




At one point in the Beltran negotiations, Boras let it be known that there were 6 teams offering his strike price of $112.  Turns out the only team that offered that, and over, was the Mets.  And, it's difficult to find 4 teams that made offers, much less 6, and only 2 offered over 100.  Yeah, they'll bite.  He lies, and there's no way for teams to check because that would be collusion.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2006, 05:13:21 pm »
Quote:

Actually, the additional amount in NY didn't even offset the state taxes, IIRC my calculations at the time.

Which matters not to Boras, of course, because he takes his cut from the top.





Right, but that's the way he phrased it to Beltran, who was in a complete fog the whole time.  Purpura said he'd never seen a player turn over negotiations so completely as did Beltran.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2006, 05:14:21 pm »
Quote:

I'm sure there are many, but here's one.



Hmmm: Doug Mientkiewicz's agent is Greg Landry.  Do you suppose that's the old Detroit Lions QB?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2006, 05:19:59 pm »
Quote:

Purpura said he'd never seen a player turn over negotiations so completely as did Beltran.




Which is completely on Beltran, not Boras.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2006, 05:21:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Purpura said he'd never seen a player turn over negotiations so completely as did Beltran.




Which is completely on Beltran, not Boras.





Right, but woe to anyone who tries to take back control of their own negotiations.  Sheffield found that out.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2006, 05:21:31 pm »
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He lies, and there's no way for teams to check because that would be collusion.




My question has always been...if THAT is collusion, why isn't what Boras does considered misrepresentation or fraud?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2006, 05:22:08 pm »
Don't be surprised if Luis Gonzales is an Astro next year.  He and his family want to come home and he thinks he may have one or two more years left in him.

We shall see.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2006, 05:22:46 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

He lies, and there's no way for teams to check because that would be collusion.




My question has always been...if THAT is collusion, why isn't what Boras does considered misrepresentation or fraud?





You're asking the wrong person. I have no idea how he's not in jail.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2006, 05:22:56 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Purpura said he'd never seen a player turn over negotiations so completely as did Beltran.




Which is completely on Beltran, not Boras.





I don't think anyone disputes that.  However, it also seems to be consistant with other Boras clients.  Maybe it's required by Boras but I doubt it.  It's more likely that players who simply want the most money possible look to Boras to accomplish that and don't care how it is achieved.
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MusicMan

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2006, 05:23:32 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

He lies, and there's no way for teams to check because that would be collusion.




My question has always been...if THAT is collusion, why isn't what Boras does considered misrepresentation or fraud?





It is.  But there's no way to prove that without collusion, thus the evil genius of his ways.

The "Satan" moniker isn't far off, because he really is the Master of Lies.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2006, 05:25:32 pm »
Quote:

It is.  But there's no way to prove that without collusion, thus the evil genius of his ways.





That's not true at all.  It seems like it's public fucking knowledge that it's fraud.  It seems like someone could bring suit and then it would be fairly easy to prove.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2006, 05:25:57 pm »
Quote:

Lee isn't my #1 target this offseason.  I would have to look at the list of FAs to determine if he is even in top 5.

Schmidt would be my #1 target.




If Loretta's actually available, I'd sure like to give him another try in Houston, but I don't know how to resolve the Biggio quandary.  Can Loretta play 3rd?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2006, 05:26:33 pm »
Quote:

remember, the dandy doodles stayed as far away from beltran as humanly possible; even with the mets in the running. so, too, did the NE bandwagon. it's not like boras snaps, and the big dogs come runnin'.

beltran wanted NY; boras got him NY. lee (supposedly) wants houston.





Boras has a tendency to make negotiations much more difficult.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2006, 05:28:53 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

It is.  But there's no way to prove that without collusion, thus the evil genius of his ways.





That's not true at all.  It seems like it's public fucking knowledge that it's fraud.  It seems like someone could bring suit and then it would be fairly easy to prove.

"Mr. Owner of the Other Teams, did you ever offer $112m+ for Beltran?"

"Who?"





The teams were, Angels, Tigers, Cubs, Astros, Yankees, and Mets.  Angels, Tigers, and Yankees  said  they never made an offer.  Cubs offered 60 at a point when the Astros had already offered 80.  Top Astros offer was 105.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2006, 05:30:41 pm »
Quote:

Life v Federline.



that's fucking classic. cap, doffed.

i'm not disputing boras' level of douche baggery; only that if the astros really want lee, and if lee really wants the astros (all reported on an internet site, so i'm inclinded to buy-in 100%), then lee and the astros will get things done, regardless (or, were i spencer tillman, irregardless) of any and every trick boras pulls out of his shawshanked ass.

right?...

right?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2006, 05:30:48 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Lee isn't my #1 target this offseason.  I would have to look at the list of FAs to determine if he is even in top 5.

Schmidt would be my #1 target.




If Loretta's actually available, I'd sure like to give him another try in Houston, but I don't know how to resolve the Biggio quandary.  Can Loretta play 3rd?





Reports I've heard are that Loretta's range is greatly diminshed at 2b - not something you look for in a 3b.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2006, 05:30:49 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Lee isn't my #1 target this offseason.  I would have to look at the list of FAs to determine if he is even in top 5.

Schmidt would be my #1 target.




If Loretta's actually available, I'd sure like to give him another try in Houston, but I don't know how to resolve the Biggio quandary.  Can Loretta play 3rd?





Why? Loretta just turned 35. He peaked two or three years ago. And you're asking whether he can play a position where he's spent only about 10 percent of his career innings in the field. That might work fine to round out a roster, but it's not a central piece of the puzzle this offseason.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2006, 05:32:19 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Life v Federline.




that's fucking classic. cap, doffed.

i'm not disputing boras' level of douche baggery; only that if the astros really want lee, and if lee really wants the astros (all reported on an internet site, so i'm inclinded to buy-in 100%), then lee and the astros will get things done, regardless (or, were i spencer tillman, irregardless) of any and every trick boras pulls out of his shawshanked ass.

right?...

right?




It seemed just that simple ... before Boras got involved. It's not likely to be that simple with Boras.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2006, 05:32:29 pm »
Quote:

Boras has a tendency to make negotiations much more difficult.



yeah, for food-thru-straw numbnuts like tom hicks. mclane's a little savier.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2006, 05:32:58 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Life v Federline.




that's fucking classic. cap, doffed.

i'm not disputing boras' level of douche baggery; only that if the astros really want lee, and if lee really wants the astros (all reported on an internet site, so i'm inclinded to buy-in 100%), then lee and the astros will get things done, regardless (or, were i spencer tillman, irregardless) of any and every trick boras pulls out of his shawshanked ass.

right?...

right?




What internet site?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2006, 05:34:19 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Life v Federline.




that's fucking classic. cap, doffed.

i'm not disputing boras' level of douche baggery; only that if the astros really want lee, and if lee really wants the astros (all reported on an internet site, so i'm inclinded to buy-in 100%), then lee and the astros will get things done, regardless (or, were i spencer tillman, irregardless) of any and every trick boras pulls out of his shawshanked ass.

right?...

right?




Drayton Mclane is one flinty eyed sunvabitch when it comes to business. He's not likely to negotiate twice with someone he does not trust.  And he does not trust Scott Boras.  The Astros interest in Lee comes from 2 sources, a quote by Drayton Mclane and from articles that have the look of a step up from half ass bullshittery.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2006, 05:34:42 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Boras has a tendency to make negotiations much more difficult.



yeah, for food-thru-straw numbnuts like tom hicks. mclane's a little savier.





Savvy enough.  McLane is the classic Great White type of owner - i.e., "Once Bitten, Twice Shy".

Let's go back to the original theory, that Lee wants Houston.  If so, why would he hire an agent that is well-known to be despised by his preferred team?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2006, 05:35:32 pm »
Quote:

yeah, for food-thru-straw numbnuts like tom hicks. mclane's a little savier.




I think it's "savvier." McLane might take offense if you implied that he was something close to "savior."

And with Boras, it's not just driving prices up a la Tom Hicks. It's the general bad faith and screwing around in negotiating.

I agree, if the Astros and Lee really want to make a deal, it can be done even with Boras there. But Boras is likely to push Lee very hard to see what else is in the market in order to arrive at a figure, and other contract terms, for the Astros to beat.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2006, 05:35:51 pm »
and despite what beltran might think, boras works for lee. so if he sticks his sack in the middle of lee getting done what lee wants, a quick phone call removes boras from the equation.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2006, 05:37:37 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Life v Federline.




that's fucking classic. cap, doffed.

i'm not disputing boras' level of douche baggery; only that if the astros really want lee, and if lee really wants the astros (all reported on an internet site, so i'm inclinded to buy-in 100%), then lee and the astros will get things done, regardless (or, were i spencer tillman, irregardless) of any and every trick boras pulls out of his shawshanked ass.

right?...

right?




There were some innuresting reports at one time that *Beltran* wanted to stay in Houston.  Loved the clubhouse, loved playing with Berkman, Oswalt and Everett, blah, blah, blah.

Then he sat back and let Satan take over.

However, there were also reports at one time that Jeff Kent would like to play for Houston because it was close to his ranch in San Antonio.  And it happened.  He did not, however, have Satan as his agent and the way it got done was that Jeff Kent *ordered* his agent to get it done!

The offseason may be very interesting around here if Lee's innurest is true.  He can hit.  He's a lousy outfielder too, but he can hit.  Did I mention he can hit?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2006, 05:38:16 pm »
Quote:

Let's go back to the original theory, that Lee wants Houston.  If so, why would he hire an agent that is well-known to be despised by his preferred team?




I'd be pretty surprised if (1) Lee is just so happy at the prospect of playing for the Astros that he's fine with any old agent and doesn't need somebody like Boras to test the market for him and (2) Lee knows or particularly cares about the past relations between the Astros and Boras.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2006, 05:38:44 pm »
Quote:

and despite what beltran might think, boras works for lee. so if he sticks his sack in the middle of lee getting done what lee wants, a quick phone call removes boras from the equation.




Are you saying that you have any indication that Lee is going to fire an agent he just hired?  Further, do you know what Boras did when Sheffield tried the same thing?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2006, 05:39:29 pm »
awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2006, 05:40:32 pm »
Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof






This is complete utter crap, as evidenced by the mere mention of a rivalry between the Astros and Rangers.  No such rivalry exists.
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MusicMan

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2006, 05:41:23 pm »
Quote:

The offseason may be very interesting around here if Lee's innurest is true.  He can hit.  He's a lousy outfielder too, but he can hit.  Did I mention he can hit?




And this is my bottom line issue with Lee.  He's a middle-class man's Lance Berkman.  Yes, he can play OF - but do you really want him out there?

I would prefer Soriano at the same price - younger, faster, better chance of becoming a good OF.

Absent that, I'd explore trade options at CF, 3b, and yes, C.  Keep in mind, the Astros could be in a spot normally occupied by only NY and Boston - that is, absorbing other teams' contracts.  Such a deal could be almost equal to a FA.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2006, 05:42:49 pm »
Quote:

I agree, if the Astros and Lee really want to make a deal, it can be done even with Boras there. But Boras is likely to push Lee very hard to see what else is in the market in order to arrive at a figure, and other contract terms, for the Astros to beat.



Someday I'd like to see one of the guys who professes to "only want a championship" (not that Lee said that) to realize that he can probably get by with $50M instead of $60M, and leave the other $10M on the table to improve the rest of the team.  Of course, I guess that requires an act of faith that the owner won't just go buy Christmas goodies with the $10M.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2006, 05:43:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Let's go back to the original theory, that Lee wants Houston.  If so, why would he hire an agent that is well-known to be despised by his preferred team?




I'd be pretty surprised if (1) Lee is just so happy at the prospect of playing for the Astros that he's fine with any old agent and doesn't need somebody like Boras to test the market for him and (2) Lee knows or particularly cares about the past relations between the Astros and Boras.





I would hope that Lee did more than just look up "Agents (Evil)" in the phone book when picking new representation.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2006, 05:43:33 pm »
Quote:

Are you saying that you have any indication that Lee is going to fire an agent he just hired?  Further, do you know what Boras did when Sheffield tried the same thing?



i'm not "saying" anything, per se; just that boras does not, by his lonesome, mean no carlos lee for the astros. it might; it might not.

my guess (hope?) is that lee will have the stones to help decide his future.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2006, 05:45:09 pm »
Quote:

And this is my bottom line issue with Lee.  He's a middle-class man's Lance Berkman.  Yes, he can play OF - but do you really want him out there?

I would prefer Soriano at the same price - younger, faster, better chance of becoming a good OF.

Absent that, I'd explore trade options at CF, 3b, and yes, C.  Keep in mind, the Astros could be in a spot normally occupied by only NY and Boston - that is, absorbing other teams' contracts.  Such a deal could be almost equal to a FA.





I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2006, 05:45:28 pm »
Quote:

and despite what beltran might think, boras works for lee. so if he sticks his sack in the middle of lee getting done what lee wants, a quick phone call removes boras from the equation.




I tend to agree that McLane/Purpura will talk to Satan if they have to.  However, this time, they won't allow themselves to be taken for a January free agent ride.  If they want to get something done, they'll do it within the proper timeframe, with Boras or without.  Satan's biggest weapon besides the half-truths (ie: LIES) is time.  He makes time his ally.  McLane was his own worse enemy when he showed he was willing to continue negotiations in 1998 with Team Racket late into the off-season after Hunsicker had told them to take a hike!  Boras used that against McLane to string him along until February.  

However, there are *other* Boras clients that had to settle late in the off-season because Satan was unable to get them in early with teams that fit.  Pudge Rodriquez comes to mind, he who decided to let Satan use his magic time wand to bait his target team along... supposedly.  Then the Anaheim Angels told him to take a hike, they needed to move on.  Satan had to hustle and late in the offseason, got Pudge a gig with the then woeful Detroit Tiggers.  And Pudge hated it too.

Perhaps now he loves it since they're winning, but the ploy works sometimes for and sometimes against a player.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2006, 05:46:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Are you saying that you have any indication that Lee is going to fire an agent he just hired?  Further, do you know what Boras did when Sheffield tried the same thing?



i'm not "saying' anything, per se; just that boras does not, by his lonesome, mean no carlos lee for the astros. it might; it might not.

my guess (hope?) is that lee will have the stones to help decide his future.





he may have already had the stones to decide his future, by signing Boras as his agent.  If Lee wants to come to Houston, he'll probably end up here.  If he is out for the money to buy more cows for his ranch, then he'll sign the largest contract he can get.

Didn't he turn down 4/$48 with the Brewers?  I don't think I would like the Astros to pay him more than that.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2006, 05:46:48 pm »
Quote:

I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.



yeah, and only a year younger, right? if that?

i would love to add lee; i would love for them to resign huff; i'd love for them to move scott to the 2-hole, ala beltran, and go to war with that offense next year.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2006, 05:47:50 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Let's go back to the original theory, that Lee wants Houston.  If so, why would he hire an agent that is well-known to be despised by his preferred team?




I'd be pretty surprised if (1) Lee is just so happy at the prospect of playing for the Astros that he's fine with any old agent and doesn't need somebody like Boras to test the market for him and (2) Lee knows or particularly cares about the past relations between the Astros and Boras.




I would hope that Lee did more than just look up "Agents (Evil)" in the phone book when picking new representation.




It seems that Boras tends to attract plenty of new clients, and I can't recall anybody firing him recently, or any player expressing the exasperation that you always hear coming from fans, the media, and ownership. He's obviously doing more than being evil. It seems to me that he's doing a heck of a job for his clients.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2006, 05:48:41 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Are you saying that you have any indication that Lee is going to fire an agent he just hired?  Further, do you know what Boras did when Sheffield tried the same thing?



i'm not "saying" anything, per se; just that boras does not, by his lonesome, mean no carlos lee for the astros. it might; it might not.

my guess (hope?) is that lee will have the stones to help decide his future.




Boras might not torpedo the deal, but he is likely to make it more difficult. As for Lee's "stones," a player typically signs Boras because Boras has a reputation for extracting maximum value from the market for his clients. He's not necessarily someone you hire just to make sure you get a fair shake out of a team that you really want to go play for.

In any event, as noted above, McLane has supposedly mentioned an interest in Lee. Besides Lee reportedly owning a farm in Texas, is there any evidence that he has a strong desire to play for the Astros?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2006, 05:49:09 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.



yeah, and only a year younger, right? if that?

i would love to add lee; i would love for them to resign huff; i'd love for them to move scott to the 2-hole, ala beltran, and go to war with that offense next year.





So Lee in LF, Scott in RF, Huff at 3b, Biggio a year older at 2b, and Berkman at 1b.

Willy and Adam better take their Bugs Bunny vitamins.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2006, 05:49:14 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.



yeah, and only a year younger, right? if that?

i would love to add lee; i would love for them to resign huff; i'd love for them to move scott to the 2-hole, ala beltran, and go to war with that offense next year.




According to ESPN, Soriano was born Jan. 7, 1976 and Lee was born June 20, 1976.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2006, 05:50:55 pm »
Quote:

Why? Loretta just turned 35. He peaked two or three years ago. And you're asking whether he can play a position where he's spent only about 10 percent of his career innings in the field. That might work fine to round out a roster, but it's not a central piece of the puzzle this offseason.



Well, damn, you're right.  I bonked the arithmetic and thought he was 31 (scrambled the '71 bday and '95 mlb debut).
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2006, 05:53:02 pm »
Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2006, 05:53:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.



yeah, and only a year younger, right? if that?

i would love to add lee; i would love for them to resign huff; i'd love for them to move scott to the 2-hole, ala beltran, and go to war with that offense next year.




According to ESPN, Soriano was born Jan. 7, 1976 and Lee was born June 20, 1976.




Soriano's 30?!?!  Did he suffer from that Aging Syndrome crap?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2006, 05:54:21 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Why? Loretta just turned 35. He peaked two or three years ago. And you're asking whether he can play a position where he's spent only about 10 percent of his career innings in the field. That might work fine to round out a roster, but it's not a central piece of the puzzle this offseason.



Well, damn, you're right.  I bonked the arithmetic and thought he was 31 (scrambled the '71 bday and '95 mlb debut).





Again, if you're talking "veteran utility man off the bench," he'd be a pretty fine pick-up, although I think he's probably still got a couple of years left as a starter for somebody left in him.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2006, 05:54:30 pm »
Quote:

It seems that Boras tends to attract plenty of new clients, and I can't recall anybody firing him recently, or any player expressing the exasperation that you always hear coming from fans, the media, and ownership. He's obviously doing more than being evil. It seems to me that he's doing a heck of a job for his clients.




Well, that's not entirely true.  Boras does great for upper echelon, ready for free agency players.  He stinks as an agent for middle to lower rung players who are facing arbitration or trying to get a little pay raise.  Plenty of players have fired Boras because he does very little for them when they're in that position.  Octavio Dotel in his second arbitration year comes to mind.

Believe it or not, Roy Oswalt last year would've probably gotten less than he did from the Astros if he had Boras as his agent.  Boras does not do any appreciable work for anybody other than top rung players.  Then he pulls out all stops.  He's not really respected amongst other agents as the guy who represents *all* players well.  He does his best *or most evil* work when he's got A-Rod or Beltran as his client.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2006, 05:56:27 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?





Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2006, 05:56:30 pm »
Quote:

Well, that's not entirely true.  Boras does great for upper echelon, ready for free agency players.  He stinks as an agent for middle to lower rung players who are facing arbitration or trying to get a little pay raise.  Plenty of players have fired Boras because he does very little for them when they're in that position.  Octavio Dotel in his second arbitration year comes to mind.

Believe it or not, Roy Oswalt last year would've probably gotten less than he did from the Astros if he had Boras as his agent.  Boras does not do any appreciable work for anybody other than top rung players.  Then he pulls out all stops.  He's not really respected amongst other agents as the guy who represents *all* players well.  He does his best *or most evil* work when he's got A-Rod or Beltran as his client.





Also, as for the notion that Lee should "sack up" and fire Boras if Boras gets in the way, I have to think that an agent who works on commission has some rights if he's terminated a long way into the negotiation process.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2006, 05:57:51 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would think Soriano would be more expensive than Lee.



yeah, and only a year younger, right? if that?

i would love to add lee; i would love for them to resign huff; i'd love for them to move scott to the 2-hole, ala beltran, and go to war with that offense next year.




According to ESPN, Soriano was born Jan. 7, 1976 and Lee was born June 20, 1976.




Soriano's 30?!?!  Did he suffer from that Aging Syndrome crap?




I even double checked it against mlb.  Amazing that everyone seems to think he is younger than Carlos Lee.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2006, 05:59:01 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Well, that's not entirely true.  Boras does great for upper echelon, ready for free agency players.  He stinks as an agent for middle to lower rung players who are facing arbitration or trying to get a little pay raise.  Plenty of players have fired Boras because he does very little for them when they're in that position.  Octavio Dotel in his second arbitration year comes to mind.

Believe it or not, Roy Oswalt last year would've probably gotten less than he did from the Astros if he had Boras as his agent.  Boras does not do any appreciable work for anybody other than top rung players.  Then he pulls out all stops.  He's not really respected amongst other agents as the guy who represents *all* players well.  He does his best *or most evil* work when he's got A-Rod or Beltran as his client.





Also, as for the notion that Lee should "sack up" and fire Boras if Boras gets in the way, I have to think that an agent who works on a commission has some rights if he's terminated a long way into the negotiation process.





He's probably entitled to the value of the work that he did, but Lee isn't bound all or nothing. I doubt he would lose any money by firing Boras. A principal can always fire his agent for not doing what he told him to do.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2006, 05:59:43 pm »
Quote:

Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Depends on what the agreement between them says.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2006, 06:00:44 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof






This is complete utter crap, as evidenced by the mere mention of a rivalry between the Astros and Rangers.  No such rivalry exists.





Not between the teams no.  And probably not between Mclane and Hicks, other than the usual macho crap.  But, combine this article (and I'd never trust unattributed rumor without some other sort of backup) with Mclane saying that they were really interested in Lee at the deadline and about how hard they worked.  I think there's something there.  Plus, Lee is one of the 2 best hitters on the market and the Astros need a hitter.  Why wouldnt they be interested?  Without the inherent logic behind the interest and the statement by Mclane, I wouldn't just go with an SI article neither.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2006, 06:01:16 pm »
Quote:

He's probably entitled to the value of the work that he did, but Lee isn't bound all or nothing. I doubt he would lose any money by firing Boras. A principal can always fire his agent for not doing what he told him to do.




How much it would cost Lee to fire Boras would be set forth in their agreement. It's not likely to be a black-and-white matter of "he didn't do what I say, he's fired."

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2006, 06:01:44 pm »
Quote:

Boras might not torpedo the deal, but he is likely to make it more difficult.




The Astros won't negotiate with Boras in the last days of January because they know as easily as they can be the target team for the player, they can also be the market driver team for Boras.  Juneberno with the guy, so the important thing to remember when negotiating with him is this:

Set a reasonable deadline to talk turkey and if he wants to string you out, walk... no *RUN*... away from him the day after the deadline hits.  If your deadline is November 25th, then freaking stick to it!

Lee will have to go play for.... let's see... who has money to spend... hmmmm... hmmmm... well, any way.  He'll either play for someone else or he'll come back to you late in January asking if he can still talk to you about his client... at a somewhat reasonable price.  (A price, mind you, that the client wanted in the first place)

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2006, 06:02:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Depends on what the agreement between them says.





There's probably a severence provision, but I doubt it would cost Carlos much in the context of Carlos' eventual contract.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2006, 06:02:35 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Depends on what the agreement between them says.




There's probably a severence provision, but I doubt it would cost Carlos much in the context of Carlos' eventual contract.




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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2006, 06:04:25 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Well, that's not entirely true.  Boras does great for upper echelon, ready for free agency players.  He stinks as an agent for middle to lower rung players who are facing arbitration or trying to get a little pay raise.  Plenty of players have fired Boras because he does very little for them when they're in that position.  Octavio Dotel in his second arbitration year comes to mind.

Believe it or not, Roy Oswalt last year would've probably gotten less than he did from the Astros if he had Boras as his agent.  Boras does not do any appreciable work for anybody other than top rung players.  Then he pulls out all stops.  He's not really respected amongst other agents as the guy who represents *all* players well.  He does his best *or most evil* work when he's got A-Rod or Beltran as his client.





Also, as for the notion that Lee should "sack up" and fire Boras if Boras gets in the way, I have to think that an agent who works on commission has some rights if he's terminated a long way into the negotiation process.




You can fire him to prevent *future* earnings, but not to collect on his pay day for getting you close to signing a huge contract or even signing the huge contract.  That is why the lower rung players routinely fire him... they have no future earnings such as endorsements and such, only the pay day.  Usually they're very disappointed in what they get and the fact they have to pay this fucker for the privilege.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2006, 06:04:52 pm »
Quote:

Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?



what? are you really asking me to validate the potential likelihood of what might go down in 4-5 months because you?re under the impression i actually think i have said knowledge? or are you just being your typically pedantic self?

i have no idea what's going to happen, nor does anyone else. but, assuming the astros won't or can't sign lee just because of this or that unrelated piece of info related to scott boras is every bit as speculative as me assuming it could possibly get done in spite of scott boras. we?re just kicking ideas around; no one needs to (or can) verify anything right now.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2006, 06:05:13 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?




Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Google this - Sheffield Boras suit

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2006, 06:10:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?




Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Google this - Sheffield Boras suit




Damn, I had forgotten about that mess...
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2006, 06:13:51 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?



what? are you really asking me to validate the potential likelihood of what might go down in 4-5 months because you?re under the impression i actually think i have said knowledge? or are you just being your typically pedantic self?

i have no idea what's going to happen, nor does anyone else. but, assuming the astros won't or can't sign lee just because of this or that unrelated piece of info related to scott boras is every bit as speculative as me assuming it could possibly get done in spite of scott boras. we?re just kicking ideas around; no one needs to (or can) verify anything right now.





No, I'm being my typical try to ground what you're saying in some sort of reality self.  Based on what Mclane and Purpura have said about negotiating with Boras, it's unlikely that they're going to walk into that again.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2006, 06:21:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?




Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Google this - Sheffield Boras suit




Damn, I had forgotten about that mess...




Yeah me too. I couldn't find any info other than that the suit was filed. That being said, if Boras did a bunch of work to reach the ultimate agreement, he obviously deserves to be compensated for his efforts. But it's not like a law suit is something to hold over a player's head to keep from getting fired.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2006, 06:24:43 pm »
Quote:

No, I'm being my typical try to ground what you're saying in some sort of reality self.  Based on what Mclane and Purpura have said about negotiating with Boras, it's unlikely that they're going to walk into that again.



yeah, i like the pedantic self better, personally.

lee likely has no idea the history with boras and mclane; he probably doesn't even know who mclane is.

and sure, maybe mclane does have a no-boras bottom line; but then, why did he try to trade for carlos lee? (and it could very well be because lee hired boras after 7/31... no idea.)

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2006, 06:28:13 pm »
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2006, 06:30:52 pm »
Quote:

Good article on the situation...




so.....did that ever get resolved?
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2006, 06:32:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

awww, crap - don't call me out - cnnsi, i think? let me look it up...


yep. here it is: "The Rangers won the first battle for Lee at the deadline, but insiders believe the Astros have the edge to sign Lee long-term.

Beyond the fact that Astros owner Drayton McLane has an overriding desire to upstage his intrastate rival, Lee is said to have strong ties to Houston."

and here's the link:  Irrefutable Proof





Ok, so where's your "irrefutable proof"  that Lee is about to fire Boras because he wont negotiate with the Astros?  Do you think Carlos Lee is factoring in how fast Boras would sue him if he did that?




Sue him? The agent suing the principal for firing him because the agent refused to do what principal expressly told him to do? If that were the case, agency law as we know it would be completely redefined.




Google this - Sheffield Boras suit




Damn, I had forgotten about that mess...




Yeah me too. I couldn't find any info other than that the suit was filed. That being said, if Boras did a bunch of work to reach the ultimate agreement, he obviously deserves to be compensated for his efforts. But it's not like a law suit is something to hold over a player's head to keep from getting fired.




How about the time Sheffield demanded the Dodgers renegotiate his contract fired his agent then hired Boras?  Boras then made Sheffield apologize to the Dodgers ownership, the team and the city for being a yutz.  And he still got traded to the Braves.  Lots worse things can happen than being sued.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2006, 06:34:23 pm »
Quote:

There's probably a severence provision, but I doubt it would cost Carlos much in the context of Carlos' eventual contract.




If you hire someone to broker something on your behalf, and he earns a commission on it, it is often the case that he will be entitled to some part of the commission if he gets you most of the way there and you decide to terminate at the last minute. If it's a percentage of the contact, it's not necessarily going to be insubstantial.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2006, 06:35:54 pm »
Quote:

why did he try to trade for carlos lee? (and it could very well be because lee hired boras after 7/31... no idea.)



He hired Boras TODAY, Ric.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2006, 06:36:42 pm »
Quote:

Yeah me too. I couldn't find any info other than that the suit was filed. That being said, if Boras did a bunch of work to reach the ultimate agreement, he obviously deserves to be compensated for his efforts. But it's not like a law suit is something to hold over a player's head to keep from getting fired.




I would think the prospect of expensive and messy litigation would play a part in someone's decision-making process.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2006, 06:39:13 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

No, I'm being my typical try to ground what you're saying in some sort of reality self.  Based on what Mclane and Purpura have said about negotiating with Boras, it's unlikely that they're going to walk into that again.



yeah, i like the pedantic self better, personally.

lee likely has no idea the history with boras and mclane; he probably doesn't even know who mclane is.

and sure, maybe mclane does have a no-boras bottom line; but then, why did he try to trade for carlos lee? (and it could very well be because lee hired boras after 7/31... no idea.)





If it's not too pedantic, Lee hired Boras today.  The Astros made a strong play for Lee, the Brewers traded him to the Rangers because they didnt want him in their division.  Now who's underestimating Carlos Lee's intelligence?

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2006, 06:39:34 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

There's probably a severence provision, but I doubt it would cost Carlos much in the context of Carlos' eventual contract.




If you hire someone to broker something on your behalf, and he earns a commission on it, it is often the case that he will be entitled to some part of the commission if he gets you most of the way there and you decide to terminate at the last minute. If it's a percentage of the contact, it's not necessarily going to be insubstantial.





Right, he would be entitled to compensation for the value of services rendered. But that money is already spent in that the work's already been done and the benefit already conferred.
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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2006, 06:44:43 pm »
Quote:

Right, he would be entitled to compensation for the value of services rendered. But that money is already spent in that the work's already been done and the benefit already conferred.




It's not necessarily going to be limited to the value of services rendered. If he's paid by commission, and not hourly, then he's likely to claim that he's entitled to all or some part of the commission. That's precisely what he seems to be arguing in Sheffield's case.

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2006, 06:51:26 pm »
Quote:

He hired Boras TODAY, Ric.



seriously? that's funny; i had no idea. ok, yeah - screw carlos lee...

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Re: So Much For Carlos Lee
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2006, 01:17:59 am »
Quote:

Soriano's 30?!?!  Did he suffer from that Aging Syndrome crap?




Actually, yes:

 Alfonso Soriano, DAS victim
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
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