Author Topic: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..  (Read 7834 times)

Alkie

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Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« on: July 28, 2006, 02:40:23 pm »
I'm not asking about the validity of the trade, I'm just asking the folks who know these guys...would you do this trade if it came up:

Pence and Hirsh for Jason Bay

You'd be getting a corner OF with a ton of power, who would be under club control for a few years, no?

(I just don't know how good our guys actually are.)

MusicMan

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 02:41:56 pm »
No.  I really, really like Bay, but that's too much.  If you're giving up both Pence and Hirsh, you'd better be getting back someone who will be in the MVP discussion every freakin' year.
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Alkie

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 02:44:03 pm »
You mean like Jason Bay?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I just don't know if Pence and Hirsh are just "really really fucking good" or if they're both "totally can't miss" or what.

Because I know the Bucs are looking at all offers and I was just wondering if 2 top-prospects would bring us a player who basically fits every single thing we're looking for in a single position player right now.

jaklewein

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 02:45:02 pm »
Quote:

No.  I really, really like Bay, but that's too much.  If you're giving up both Pence and Hirsh, you'd better be getting back someone who will be in the MVP discussion every freakin' year.





Uhhh, and why couldn't Bay be there?  Annually in the MVP discussion every year that is.  I'd give that deal serious consideration.

Jacksonian

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 02:46:48 pm »
Quote:

I'm not asking about the validity of the trade, I'm just asking the folks who know these guys...would you do this trade if it came up:

Pence and Hirsh for Jason Bay

You'd be getting a corner OF with a ton of power, who would be under club control for a few years, no?

(I just don't know how good our guys actually are.)





Pence is a corner outfielder with a ton of power who is under club control for many years.  The difference is Bay is a proven major leaguer.  Hirsh looks like a top of the rotation kind of guy.  Pence would be ok, but not both.  You'd have to go lower than Hirsh, say...Nieve.
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Alkie

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 02:47:48 pm »
Alright, so Nieve and Pence for Bay we'd do?  Would the Pirates laugh their asses off at that?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 02:48:37 pm »
Quote:

Alright, so Nieve and Pence for Bay we'd do?  Would the Pirates laugh their asses off at that?




How about Pence and Buchholz?
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matadorph

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 02:50:39 pm »
I wouldn't deal Hirsh since we won't have Clemens and Pettitte  next year. From the Bennett/Purpura quotes I've read about the kid, they seem to think he's major-league ready. I'd rather us keep him for the long-term and go after another bat in the off-season.

Alkie

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006, 02:52:05 pm »
You tell me.  I don't know anything about Pence, other than the folks in here seem to think he's our next can't-miss.

I just wonder if he's the next Berkman or the next Hidalgo.  

Remember when we could have gotten Clemens from Toronto for Elarton and Hidalgo, and every one of us, to a man, doubled over in laughter in here.

Oops.

jaklewein

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2006, 02:56:06 pm »
Quote:

You tell me.  I don't know anything about Pence, other than the folks in here seem to think he's our next can't-miss.

I just wonder if he's the next Berkman or the next Hidalgo.  

Remember when we could have gotten Clemens from Toronto for Elarton and Hidalgo, and every one of us, to a man, doubled over in laughter in here.

Oops.





That's why I'm not even sure the Pirates would do a Pence/Hirsh deal.  They are under no financial pressure to trade the guy...and they'll probably be able to get a similar deal in a 2-3 years when he is a financial burden.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2006, 02:58:00 pm »
Quote:

You mean like Jason Bay?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I just don't know if Pence and Hirsh are just "really really fucking good" or if they're both "totally can't miss" or what.

Because I know the Bucs are looking at all offers and I was just wondering if 2 top-prospects would bring us a player who basically fits every single thing we're looking for in a single position player right now.





I put Bay in the next tier... really damn good, but not likely to ever seriously contend for MVP.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2006, 03:02:52 pm »
Quote:

You tell me.  I don't know anything about Pence, other than the folks in here seem to think he's our next can't-miss.

I just wonder if he's the next Berkman or the next Hidalgo.  

Remember when we could have gotten Clemens from Toronto for Elarton and Hidalgo, and every one of us, to a man, doubled over in laughter in here.

Oops.





Neither.  Berkman is a true rarity.  Pence looks to me like a better hitter than Hidalgo was.  I think Pence has better bat speed, and he might have a little more power.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2006, 03:13:20 pm »
Quote:

Pence looks to me like a better hitter than Hidalgo was.  I think Pence has better bat speed, and he might have a little more power.





Sean Berry was quoted on 610 this morning as saying that Pence has the quickest hands in all the Astros organization.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2006, 03:15:45 pm »
Quick enough to trade our entire current outfield and call him up today?

Because if he's that good, the man ain't doin' us no good in Round Rock.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2006, 03:16:41 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Pence looks to me like a better hitter than Hidalgo was.  I think Pence has better bat speed, and he might have a little more power.





Sean Berry was quoted on 610 this morning as saying that Pence has the quickest hands in all the Astros organization.





1.  Sounds like he needs to get a girlfriend.

2.  Big deal... he hasn't been shot in the wrist yet, let's see what that does.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2006, 03:16:57 pm »
He's in AA, otherwise known as Corpus Christi
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Alkie

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2006, 03:18:28 pm »
He's in AA?  Like I said, until about an hour ago, I couldn't have cared less about our minor leagues.

I spent 18 years of my childhood in El Paso watching Texas League baseball.  I don't need to watch any more.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2006, 03:32:17 pm »
Btw he banged out another HR (his 24th, i think) to go with  three ribbies last night against Frisco.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2006, 03:32:46 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Pence looks to me like a better hitter than Hidalgo was.  I think Pence has better bat speed, and he might have a little more power.





Sean Berry was quoted on 610 this morning as saying that Pence has the quickest hands in all the Astros organization.





Great...in comparison to who?  Look at Jacksonian's recently updated top-10 list.  Pence is the only offensive player in there.  I'm not sure there's that much competition, which is why it would hurt to lose him for a rental.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2006, 03:36:10 pm »
Quote:

Btw he banged out another HR (his 24th, i think) to go with  three ribbies last night against Frisco.




He also had 2 doubles, giving him a 3 for 4 night against, in part, a rehabbing major leaguer Kameron Loe.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2006, 03:49:24 pm »
While I can appreciate the sentiment that the Astros aren't going anywhere as the moment.  Did anyone notice the Astros still scored some runs.  The offense is showing some life.  If not for the back to back 3 run innings by Buchholtz, it's a  different game last night.

I point that out because I'm not so sure offense the primary problem, and definitely not the only problem.  As was pointed out, the bullpen has done a nice job as of late, with exception of Lidge.  Oswalt and Clemens are doing about as expected.  They aren't perfect every night but they are competitive the vast majority of the time and give the team a chance to win.  Pettitte has been hot and cold.  Add Buchholtz and Wandy, with Wandy showing a strong trend and Buchholtz extreme inconsistancy, although a trend is starting to appear.  

More than one person, who usually serve as a good source for inside thinking, has pointed out TB may have earned his ticked back to RR last night combined with Albers doing an outstanding job over 5 innings.  If I'm putting money down, I'm betting Albers get's Buchholtz's next start.  Backe was not good last time out.  The Astros have to be hoping beyond hope that he's still building arm strength and that performance was a just a rough initial outing.  Of all the pitchers who have me the most concerned, it's Pettitte.  I don't know what's wrong but he's getting hit hard.  If he's missing on his pitches, it's not by much.  All I know is he's been very hittable.  They can take one pitcher in the rotation like that, but 3 is killing the team.  From the offense having to mount 2-3 run rallies compouned by the wear on the bullpen, no team will succeed in that situation.  

One idea that has crossed my mind is moving Lidge to the DL, if he's injured, or RR.  They'll need to figure out what to do with the bullpen, either bring up Hirsh if he's healthy, leaving Albers in the 'pen, or bring up Sampson and see what Albers can do in the rotation.  Let Lidge work out his mechanics in RR.  The only problem with that is if they think Lidge has a fragile ego.  However, if his recent outings haven't done the damage, a trip to RR won't do it either.  

Garner can use Qualls and Wheeler to do late and close with Springer, Albers, Miller, and Borkowski to do middle and some late innings.  A rotation of Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte, Backe, and Hirsh is still questionable given the questions about yet another rookie, a guy coming back from injury, and Pettitte not pitching like Pettitte.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2006, 04:12:18 pm »
NO!!!!!!!
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Alkie

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2006, 04:12:24 pm »
Quote:

I point that out because I'm not so sure offense the primary problem




Because of TWO games against the Reds at home?  Man, you're easy to please.

We have the 2nd worst, if not THE worst offensive club in baseball.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2006, 04:13:11 pm »
They're that good?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2006, 04:18:04 pm »
who knows how they will turn out in MLB, but they are not mere "prospects." they are the best hitter and the best pitcher in the Astros minor league system. is Bay worth that? not to me.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2006, 04:18:17 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I point that out because I'm not so sure offense the primary problem




Because of TWO games against the Reds at home?  Man, you're easy to please.

We have the 2nd worst, if not THE worst offensive club in baseball.





The offense is bad.  What happens when Ensberg comes back?  Do you expect Huff to continue hitting like he has now?  I think Ensberg comes back and contributes, how much I can't say.  Huff should hit better as he adjusts.  He's a good hitter.  If those 2 things happen, you have the following lineup:

Biggio
Burke
Berkman
Huff
Ensberg
Wilson
Ausmus
Everett

If those first 6 can't score runs, replacing one of the bats with Tejada or Soriano won't change that significantly.
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jaklewein

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2006, 04:22:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I point that out because I'm not so sure offense the primary problem




Because of TWO games against the Reds at home?  Man, you're easy to please.

We have the 2nd worst, if not THE worst offensive club in baseball.




The offense is bad.  What happens when Ensberg comes back?  Do you expect Huff to continue hitting like he has now?  I think Ensberg comes back and contributes, how much I can't say.  Huff should hit better as he adjusts.  He's a good hitter.  If those 2 things happen, you have the following lineup:

Biggio
Burke
Berkman
Huff
Ensberg
Wilson
Ausmus
Everett

If those first 6 can't score runs, replacing one of the bats with Tejada or Soriano won't change that significantly.




I don't think you can't bank on Ensberg for shit right now, but let's say you can...and he does...remove Wilson, insert Ensberg at 3rd, place Huff in RF.  That's an improvement, hands down.

Edit...insert Soriano in LF.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2006, 04:31:34 pm »
I would not do it, but I give you credit for at least proposing something worth consideration.  It's not the typical stupid ass rental rip-off that the press keeps speculating about.

Interestingly, I believe Bay was part of the Giles trade: a trade where the Pirates acquired a prospect for an older veteran.  You know, the kind of trade that makes sense, instead of all the freaking ideas of trading good prospects for older veterans, or worse, older rental veterans.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2006, 04:41:27 pm »
Quote:

Interestingly, I believe Bay was part of the Giles trade: a trade where the Pirates acquired a prospect for an older veteran.  You know, the kind of trade that makes sense, instead of all the freaking ideas of trading good prospects for older veterans, or worse, older rental veterans.



March 24, 2002: Traded by the Montreal Expos with Jimmy Serrano to the New York Mets for Lou Collier.

July 31, 2002: Traded by the New York Mets with Josh Reynolds (minors) and Bobby Jones to the San Diego Padres for Steve Reed and Jason Middlebrook.

August 26, 2003: Traded by the San Diego Padres with a player to be named later and Oliver Perez to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Brian Giles. The San Diego Padres sent Corey Stewart (minors) (October 2, 2003) to the Pittsburgh Pirates to complete the trade.


So the Mets gave up Bay in a trading-deadline deal for veteran bullpen help.

And, of course, the Piroots got Giles for Ricardo Rincon in a mid-season-shore-up-the-bullpen deal w/ Cleveland (iirc).
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2006, 04:43:08 pm »
Quote:

Great...in comparison to who?  Look at Jacksonian's recently updated top-10 list.  Pence is the only offensive player in there.  I'm not sure there's that much competition, which is why it would hurt to lose him for a rental.




Uhhhhh, sure...

That's why I specified the whole Astros organization... Pence is supposed to be quicker with the bat than anyone with the big club too... Including the Big Puma...
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2006, 05:28:20 pm »
One worthless internet opinion:

 The Link

Pretty interesting, but I don't know if I agree that Hirsch is necessarily more expendable Albers, Patton, or Nieve.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2006, 05:38:37 pm »
Worthless is right.  Soriano in CF?  You have got to be shitting me, Pyle!

Quote:

One worthless internet opinion:

 The Link

Pretty interesting, but I don't know if I agree that Hirsch is necessarily more expendable Albers, Patton, or Nieve.



Grab another Coke and let's die

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2006, 05:56:50 pm »
This is more proof that you should need a license to have a fucking blog.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2006, 05:59:55 pm »
Quote:

Worthless is right.  Soriano in CF?  You have got to be shitting me, Pyle!




Yeah but consider this... Playing Soriano in CF frees up Burke for shortstop...

Bet you didn't consider that angle....
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2006, 06:02:59 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Worthless is right.  Soriano in CF?  You have got to be shitting me, Pyle!




Yeah but consider this... Playing Soriano in CF frees up Burke for shortstop...

Bet you didn't consider that angle....




The stros could move Biggio back to LF, Soriano in CF, and Burke in RF and we'd have an entire outfield full of 2nd basemen.  That would be fun.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2006, 06:11:12 pm »
AND:

activate Bagwell to play 3B, Lamb at ss, Huff at 2B and Berkman at 1B.

Munson at C.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2006, 06:16:41 pm »
I'd rather see them put Lamb in the OF, Ensberg at SS, and Biggio at C.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2006, 06:24:17 pm »
Quote:

I'd rather see them put Lamb in the OF, Ensberg at SS, and Biggio at C.




But in Jim's scenario, you have a lineup consisting solely of first and second basemen.  Too cool.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2006, 06:41:09 pm »
Quote:

This is more proof that you should need a license to have a fucking blog.




Many blogs test positive for stupid

KWOOK Radio exclusive 7/28/2007

As Major League Baseball's trade deadline approaches, testing for stupid in Internet sports blogs has ramped up.

Responding to threats of congressional action, numerous hearings related to stupid have already been held by federal agencies, Internet sports blogs have begun to attempt to police themselves.  

In the first rounds of testing numerous sites have tested positive for high levels of stupid.  The names of those testing positive are not being released at this time.  However, one blog site owner that tested positive has vowed to fight back.  The owner said that the high levels of stupid are "not a doping case but a natural occurrence..." and,  "the result of his body's natural metabolism".

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2006, 07:00:08 pm »
It wouldn't surprise me if he WAS doping.  If you want to be the best blogger, you have to reach truly super-human (sub-human?) levels of stupid.  Honestly, I don't see how anyone NOT on drugs can write a sports blog in the first place.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2006, 07:03:07 pm »
Quote:

It wouldn't surprise me if he WAS doping.  If you want to be the best blogger, you have to reach truly super-human (sub-human?) levels of stupid.  Honestly, I don't see how anyone NOT on drugs can write a sports blog in the first place.




Or, if you weren't in the first place, how could you continue not to be doped up pretty soon after that.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2006, 07:05:52 pm »
I felt almost high after reading that blog entry about fixing the Astros for Purpura.  I certainly felt more stupid myself.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2006, 11:51:32 pm »
Quote:

You tell me.  I don't know anything about Pence, other than the folks in here seem to think he's our next can't-miss.

I just wonder if he's the next Berkman or the next Hidalgo.  

Remember when we could have gotten Clemens from Toronto for Elarton and Hidalgo, and every one of us, to a man, doubled over in laughter in here.

Oops.





The Astros have a long line of can't-miss outfielders who never panned out. Eric Anthony, anyone?

I'd rather have a proven MLB hitter.

This brings up another interesting, yet scary point. Assuming the expensive pitchers are off the books next year (Clemens, Pettite, Oswalt [trade if he doesn't want to re-sign]) and if the good hitters except for Berkman (like Ensberg, Huff, Wilson) go elsewhere, would the Astros brass pull a Marlins on us and play a bunch of unproven kids?!?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2006, 11:56:08 pm »
Quote:

The Astros have a long line of can't-miss outfielders who never panned out. Eric Anthony, anyone?

I'd rather have a proven MLB hitter.

This brings up another interesting point. Assuming the expensive pitchers are off the books next year (Clemens, Pettite, Oswalt trade if he doesn't want to re-sign) and if the hitters except for Berkman (like Ensberg, Huff, Wilson) go elsewhere, would the Astros pull a Marlins on us and play a bunch of unproven kids?!?





If the Astros have that kind of money to play with, they're much more likely to be big players in the trade and free agent markets this offseason than the Marlins have shown themselves to be.

But some of the top kids can get a chance too. It doesn't have to be all or nothing like Florida.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2006, 01:04:54 am »
Quote:

Quote:

The Astros have a long line of can't-miss outfielders who never panned out. Eric Anthony, anyone?

I'd rather have a proven MLB hitter.

This brings up another interesting point. Assuming the expensive pitchers are off the books next year (Clemens, Pettite, Oswalt trade if he doesn't want to re-sign) and if the hitters except for Berkman (like Ensberg, Huff, Wilson) go elsewhere, would the Astros pull a Marlins on us and play a bunch of unproven kids?!?





If the Astros have that kind of money to play with, they're much more likely to be big players in the trade and free agent markets this offseason than the Marlins have shown themselves to be.

But some of the top kids can get a chance too. It doesn't have to be all or nothing like Florida.





Russ99 is a White Sox fan who pays only peripheral attention to the Astros.  He's bought into the Richard Justice notion that Drayton McLane is a cheapskate.  Comparing this organization to Florida's is a joke.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2006, 01:09:59 am »
Quote:

Quote:

I'm not asking about the validity of the trade, I'm just asking the folks who know these guys...would you do this trade if it came up:

Pence and Hirsh for Jason Bay

You'd be getting a corner OF with a ton of power, who would be under club control for a few years, no?

(I just don't know how good our guys actually are.)





Pence is a corner outfielder with a ton of power who is under club control for many years.  The difference is Bay is a proven major leaguer.  Hirsh looks like a top of the rotation kind of guy.  Pence would be ok, but not both.  You'd have to go lower than Hirsh, say...Nieve.





How confident are you that Hirsch will be that good? Honest question. I tend to think the odds are against ANY given two minor league prospects amounting to Bay's value, but I don't really know. Arky?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2006, 01:17:04 am »
Quote:

Russ99 is a White Sox fan who pays only peripheral attention to the Astros.  He's bought into the Richard Justice notion that Drayton McLane is a cheapskate.  Comparing this organization to Florida's is a joke.




Listen here. I've been a contributing member of this board since it started, and also a member of Kev & Scott for many years before it closed.

I've cried in my beer about the Astros many times, (stupid Walt Weiss!!) and was competely heartbroken by the 1986 playoffs. I've been an Astros fan since 1978. Yes, I also follow the White Sox, but that's beacuse my dad grew up in Bridgeport (the Chicago neighborhood the White Sox play in.) I only had to choose between the teams once - in October last year - and even though I'm happy the Sox won, I'm quite proud of how the Astros did and have a large amount of N.L. Champions gear. I'll be happier if the Astros win a Series, just because of all the near misses and years of hardship it took to win one.

Everyone on this board needs to ease off and please stop calling my Astros fandom into question.

Considering managements relative non-action since Purpura got hired (He's a  Chicagoan and a lifelong White Sox fan too, but that doesn't stop him from running the Astros), and McLane's history I think the Florida question is quite legitimate, since we really don't know what the direction the team is going after Biggio, Bagwell, Pettite and Clemens retire.

I only made that comment because I don't buy into the notion of cheaping out on the FA market (McLane's been gunshy since the failed Drabek & Swindell signings) and I don't want to see the Astros go with a youth movement with Pence, etc. next year.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2006, 01:23:19 am »
Quote:

and even though I'm happy the Sox won




Case closed. Dual allegiance is unacceptable. You need to cut the umbilical cord and abandon the White Sox, or you will never receive respect as an Astros fan. Nor should you. This is pure bigamy.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2006, 01:29:23 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Russ99 is a White Sox fan who pays only peripheral attention to the Astros.  He's bought into the Richard Justice notion that Drayton McLane is a cheapskate.  Comparing this organization to Florida's is a joke.




Listen here. I've been a contributing member of this board since it started, and also a member of Kev & Scott for many years before it closed.

I've cried in my beer about the Astros many times, (stupid Walt Weiss!!) and was competely heartbroken by the 1986 playoffs. I've been an Astros fan since 1978. Yes, I also follow the White Sox, but that's beacuse my dad grew up in Bridgeport (the Chicago neighborhood the White Sox play in.) I only had to choose between the teams once - in October last year - and even though I'm happy the Sox won, I'm quite proud of how the Astros did and have a large amount of N.L. Champions gear. I'll be happier if the Astros win a Series, just because of all the near misses and years of hardship it took to win one.

Everyone on this board needs to ease off and please stop calling my Astros fandom into question.

Considering managements relative non-action since Purpura got hired (He's a  Chicagoan and a lifelong White Sox fan too, but that doesn't stop him from running the Astros), and McLane's history I think the Florida question is quite legitimate, since we really don't know what the direction the team is going after Biggio, Bagwell, Pettite and Clemens retire.

I only made that comment because I don't buy into the notion of cheaping out on the FA market (McLane's been gunshy since the failed Drabek & Swindell signings) and I don't want to see the Astros go with a youth movement with Pence, etc. next year.




Okay, you're a fucking idiot.  What does, "McLane's history" mean?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2006, 01:29:50 am »
Quote:

How confident are you that Hirsch will be that good? Honest question. I tend to think the odds are against ANY given two minor league prospects amounting to Bay's value, but I don't really know. Arky?




In the two-plus seasons that Bay has started regularly, he has been one of the 20 best hitters in baseball. I would guess that something like only 3% of minor-leaguers have that kind of future ahead of them. But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.

In any event, I have no idea why Pittsburgh would be shopping Bay at this point.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2006, 01:31:02 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not asking about the validity of the trade, I'm just asking the folks who know these guys...would you do this trade if it came up:

Pence and Hirsh for Jason Bay

You'd be getting a corner OF with a ton of power, who would be under club control for a few years, no?

(I just don't know how good our guys actually are.)





Pence is a corner outfielder with a ton of power who is under club control for many years.  The difference is Bay is a proven major leaguer.  Hirsh looks like a top of the rotation kind of guy.  Pence would be ok, but not both.  You'd have to go lower than Hirsh, say...Nieve.




How confident are you that Hirsch will be that good? Honest question. I tend to think the odds are against ANY given two minor league prospects amounting to Bay's value, but I don't really know. Arky?




Three quality pitches that he can throw to good locations. Unless he loses his control in the bigs he looks for all the world like a top of the rotation starter.  A 2 ERA in the PCL is sick.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2006, 01:32:31 am »
Quote:

Quote:

How confident are you that Hirsch will be that good? Honest question. I tend to think the odds are against ANY given two minor league prospects amounting to Bay's value, but I don't really know. Arky?




In the two-plus seasons that Bay has started regularly, he has been one of the 20 best hitters in baseball. I would guess that something like only 3% of minor-leaguers have that kind of future ahead of them. But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.

In any event, I have no idea why Pittsburgh would be shopping Bay at this point.





I know of only one person in the top 3% of anything...

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2006, 01:33:23 am »
Quote:

Quote:

How confident are you that Hirsch will be that good? Honest question. I tend to think the odds are against ANY given two minor league prospects amounting to Bay's value, but I don't really know. Arky?




In the two-plus seasons that Bay has started regularly, he has been one of the 20 best hitters in baseball. I would guess that something like only 3% of minor-leaguers have that kind of future ahead of them. But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.





Hirsh has pitched at the top of the league at both AA and AAA.  I'm much more confident he can be a 3% than Pence.  Pence has the talent just less of a track record.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2006, 01:35:12 am »
Quote:

But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.




Thanks. I wonder whether ANY prospect can be projected to rate within that top 3%.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2006, 01:37:41 am »
 
Quote:

Considering managements relative non-action since Purpura got hired (He's a Chicagoan and a lifelong White Sox fan too, but that doesn't stop him from running the Astros), and McLane's history I think the Florida question is quite legitimate, since we really don't know what the direction the team is going after Biggio, Bagwell, Pettite and Clemens retire.  




What "non-action"?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2006, 01:37:57 am »
Quote:

Considering managements relative non-action since Purpura got hired (He's a  Chicagoan and a lifelong White Sox fan too, but that doesn't stop him from running the Astros), and McLane's history I think the Florida question is quite legitimate, since we really don't know what the direction the team is going after Biggio, Bagwell, Pettite and Clemens retire.

I only made that comment because I don't buy into the notion of cheaping out on the FA market (McLane's been gunshy since the failed Drabek & Swindell signings) and I don't want to see the Astros go with a youth movement with Pence, etc. next year.





The Florida question is fundamentally illegitimate. The evidence under McLain's ownership is incredibly and fundamentally contrary to what Florida has done.

It makes people wonder whether you've paid any attention to the team with the Drabek/Swindell comment. The line of veteran stars the Astros have acquired through trade or free agency since the Drabek/Swindell debacle is long -- Moises Alou, Randy Johnson, Ken Caminiti, Jeff Kent, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Carlos Beltran. And this is all on top of making Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell among the best-paid players in club history.

If this is gunshy, then the only owner in baseball who is not gunshy must be George Steinbrenner. You do realize that the Astros now have baseball's third-highest payroll, don't you?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2006, 01:38:11 am »
Quote:

Okay, you're a fucking idiot.  What does, "McLane's history" mean?




Maybe so, but aside from Clemens (who has paid him back handsomely by putting people in the seats) which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou, but I still think that other than this season's payroll additions and the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.

Also, even though the Astros payroll is at an all-time high this season, I'd have doubts it would stay over 80 mil next season. If that makes me a Justice apologist, so be it.

Edit: OK, you're right on one - Jeff Kent was an excellent FA signing.  

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2006, 01:39:54 am »
Quote:

Quote:

But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.




Thanks. I wonder whether ANY prospect can be projected to rate within that top 3%.





Probably not. Heck, it's very difficult just to project which major-leaguers who are in the top 20 hitters or pitchers will still be there in a few years. Jason Bay might not, for all we know.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2006, 01:42:56 am »
Quote:

Maybe so, but aside from Clemens (who has paid him back handsomely by putting people in the seats) which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou, but I still think that other than this season's payroll additions and the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.

Also, even though the Astros payroll is at an all-time high this season, I'd have doubts it would stay over 80 mil next season. If that makes me a Justice apologist, so be it.





I don't know if it makes you a Justice apologist, but it makes your opinions counter-factual. It also makes you sound pretty unappreciative of the high-quality and relatively successful teams McLane has fielded the last dozen years.

For someone who's been posting here since Kev and Scott's days, you seem to be ignoring or belittling a lot of recent franchise history.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2006, 01:43:34 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

But there are people here far more knowledgeable than me on whether Hirsch or Pence rates with that 3%.




Thanks. I wonder whether ANY prospect can be projected to rate within that top 3%.




Probably not. Heck, it's very difficult just to project which major-leaguers who are in the top 20 hitters or pitchers will still be there in a few years. Jason Bay might not, for all we know.




Good point, though I tend to think it's more likely that Bay maintains elite status than it is that any given two prospects equal his value. Maybe I'm mistaken. And, of course, there's other factors such as cost...

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2006, 01:44:48 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Maybe so, but aside from Clemens (who has paid him back handsomely by putting people in the seats) which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou, but I still think that other than this season's payroll additions and the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.

Also, even though the Astros payroll is at an all-time high this season, I'd have doubts it would stay over 80 mil next season. If that makes me a Justice apologist, so be it.





I don't know if it makes you a Justice apologist, but it makes your opinions counter-factual. It also makes you sound pretty unappreciative of the high-quality and relatively successful teams McLane has fielded the last dozen years.

For someone who's been posting here since Kev and Scott's days, you seem to be ignoring or belittling a lot of recent franchise history.





I also don't know if anyone can take seriously an opinion that not enough free agents have been signed that starts out with, "aside from Clemens ..."

Making an exception of one of the key examples that proves the rule seems like a way to delude yourself into believing something that isn't true.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2006, 01:46:47 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Maybe so, but aside from Clemens (who has paid him back handsomely by putting people in the seats) which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou, but I still think that other than this season's payroll additions and the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.

Also, even though the Astros payroll is at an all-time high this season, I'd have doubts it would stay over 80 mil next season. If that makes me a Justice apologist, so be it.





I don't know if it makes you a Justice apologist, but it makes your opinions counter-factual. It also makes you sound pretty unappreciative of the high-quality and relatively successful teams McLane has fielded the last dozen years.

For someone who's been posting here since Kev and Scott's days, you seem to be ignoring or belittling a lot of recent franchise history.




No, I'm not belittling the last 12+ years of successful contending Astros baseball, and the large amount of star players to wear the uniform, but you have to wonder how things are going to shake out this offeseason. I hope they don't go young, but instead do as they have the last decade, but who knows what will happen?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2006, 01:50:20 am »
Quote:



I also don't know if anyone can take seriously an opinion that not enough free agents have been signed that starts out with, "aside from Clemens ..."





...and "aside from Pettitte and Alou and Johnson and Beltran..."

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2006, 01:51:38 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe so, but aside from Clemens (who has paid him back handsomely by putting people in the seats) which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou, but I still think that other than this season's payroll additions and the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.

Also, even though the Astros payroll is at an all-time high this season, I'd have doubts it would stay over 80 mil next season. If that makes me a Justice apologist, so be it.





I don't know if it makes you a Justice apologist, but it makes your opinions counter-factual. It also makes you sound pretty unappreciative of the high-quality and relatively successful teams McLane has fielded the last dozen years.

For someone who's been posting here since Kev and Scott's days, you seem to be ignoring or belittling a lot of recent franchise history.




No, I'm not belittling the last 12+ years of successful contending Astros baseball, and the large amount of star players to wear the uniform, but you have to wonder how things are going to shake out this offeseason. I hope they don't go young, but instead do as they have the last decade, but who knows what will happen?




As long as the White Sox are still solid, this shouldn't concern you.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2006, 01:56:09 am »
Quote:



No, I'm not belittling the last 12+ years of successful contending Astros baseball, and the large amount of star players to wear the uniform, but you have to wonder how things are going to shake out this offeseason. I hope they don't go young, but instead do as they have the last decade, but who knows what will happen?





You're not belittling anything.  You're acknowledging the success that this franchise has had, and then you're ignoring it to prove your "point".  You are Richard Justice, Jr.  Drayton McLane has given you a consistently successful product for fourteen years; why even suggest that he might go the way of the Marlins and turn this enormously successful franchise into losers?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2006, 01:57:32 am »
Quote:

which all-star impact players have the Astros picked up on the FA market during his ownership?  




you don't think the fact that Bluebonnet won an MVP makes him an "all star impact player"?

Quote:

Go ahead and make your case for Pettite and Alou


,

so we're not allowed to count all stars FA signings as all star FA signings?  that kind of makes it hard to answer your question doesnt it?

Quote:

the mid-season deals for Randy Johnson and Carlos Beltran, the Astros have seemed (to me, anyway) one major player short after all is said and done after each year's free agent signing period.




if you think the '98 team was one major player short, i have no idea what you think a championship caliber team is supposed to look like.  I will hate the Plumber till the day I die.

seriously what the hell do you expect from a yankee?
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2006, 01:59:52 am »
go eat some of that chili mac, Russ. you are a White Sox fan, as you let us know.
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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2006, 02:03:45 am »
Quote:

No, I'm not belittling the last 12+ years of successful contending Astros baseball, and the large amount of star players to wear the uniform, but you have to wonder how things are going to shake out this offeseason. I hope they don't go young, but instead do as they have the last decade, but who knows what will happen?




But what has McLane done in the past to indicate that this is what will happen? That's why I don't understand why you're even speculating about this.

McLane has given ample reason the last several years to believe that he will continue to try to field a winner the next several years. Berkman is under contract for the long haul. I believe the Astros want to sign Oswalt to an extension if he's willing to do so, although a sticking point will be the three-year barrier.

Assuming Clemens and Pettitte do not come back and Bagwell is done, the Astros will have some cash to spend. They're not going to spend it on crap just for the sake of spending it, and I doubt McLane's going to bear the third-highest payroll in baseball again, but I expect the Astros will do what they can to surround the young talent they have with veterans.

The circumstances in Florida are so totally different, with the ballpark situation and attendance, that the comparison here is not even close, and you have not done anything to present a case to show otherwise.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2006, 02:08:38 am »
Quote:

Quote:



I also don't know if anyone can take seriously an opinion that not enough free agents have been signed that starts out with, "aside from Clemens ..."





...and "aside from Pettitte and Alou and Johnson and Beltran..."




and Kent and Biggio and Bagwell and Wagner and Brad Ausmus' muscular butt, who all were going to be free agents.  Not even to mention Gooden and Caminiti, and Vizcaino and Springer and fuck all else, or do all the FAs have to be high priced FAs like Geoff Blum?

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2006, 02:09:25 am »
Quote:

if you think the '98 team was one major player short, i have no idea what you think a championship caliber team is supposed to look like.  I will hate the Plumber till the day I die.

seriously what the hell do you expect from a yankee?





Third base and 4th starter. Sean Berry & Sean Bergman??  Still, that was an amazing team, and if that Padres series was 7 games, I'm sure the Astros would have beaten them, Kevin Brown or not.

I hate Randy Johnson and Beltran more. Oh, and Scott Boras too.

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2006, 02:17:38 am »
Quote:

Quote:

if you think the '98 team was one major player short, i have no idea what you think a championship caliber team is supposed to look like.  I will hate the Plumber till the day I die.

seriously what the hell do you expect from a yankee?





Third base and 4th starter. Sean Berry & Sean Bergman??  Still, that was an amazing team, and if that Padres series was 7 games, I'm sure the Astros would have beaten them, Kevin Brown or not.

I hate Randy Johnson and Beltran more. Oh, and Scott Boras too.





Well, Berry hit .314 in 1998 and Jose Lima (who didn't pitch in the NLDS) was the fourth starter.  So you're still a fucking idiot.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2006, 02:32:28 am »
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Third base and 4th starter. Sean Berry & Sean Bergman??  Still, that was an amazing team, and if that Padres series was 7 games, I'm sure the Astros would have beaten them, Kevin Brown or not.




If those are the holes you've come up with, then I think that was a pretty strong team. It's extremely rare to find a team without some holes.

Astros third baseman batted .304/.381/.462 with 108 runs scored, 44 doubles, 16 home runs and 89 RBI in 1998.

After the trade deadline, the 1998 rotation included Johnson, Hampton, Reynolds and Lima. The No. 4, Lima was 16-8 with a 3.70 ERA that season.

So the Astros are about to become the Marlins because McLane couldn't improve on those?

JimR

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Re: Ok, I Honestly Don't Know Enough About Our Minors, So..
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2006, 02:48:22 am »
yeah, boy, Sean Berry was lousy. you do not even follow this team.
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