Author Topic: Berkman is leaving  (Read 6647 times)

Jose Cruz III

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Berkman is leaving
« on: July 23, 2006, 03:36:45 pm »
the game with gar and the trainer. If he is hurt, we are probably in sell mode.
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matadorph

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 03:38:36 pm »
definitely looked like a groin injury, hopefully it's not the knee. Lance should try yoga.

astro pete

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 03:41:19 pm »
Ugh.

matadorph

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 03:45:18 pm »
strained left groin.

jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 03:45:50 pm »
Quote:

the game with gar and the trainer. If he is hurt, we are probably in sell mode.




I look at it another way, assuming it's not a major injury (in which case I agree with your comment)...this will assure that Scott gets another chance (even if just for 2-3-4 games).  If he catchs fire...it may turn into another productive bat for this team.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 03:51:12 pm »
you are one True Believer.
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matadorph

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 03:58:15 pm »
LUUUUUUUKE.......

pay attention, son.

jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 04:01:45 pm »
Quote:

you are one True Believer.





Well, he's looked good in limited ABs since coming up, has he not?  I thought he had a pretty good AB against Wagner yesterday too.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 04:04:10 pm »
teach him to count to 3.
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jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 04:11:25 pm »
Quote:

teach him to count to 3.




I know, that wasn't good.  With LoDuca running, it may have very well cost the Stros a run.

astro pete

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 04:16:32 pm »
Quote:

strained left groin.




Mets announcers said hamstring.  Are they incorrect?

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 04:20:20 pm »
yes.
astros.com says left groin

astro pete

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 04:33:52 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

the game with gar and the trainer. If he is hurt, we are probably in sell mode.




I look at it another way, assuming it's not a major injury (in which case I agree with your comment)...this will assure that Scott gets another chance (even if just for 2-3-4 games).  If he catchs fire...it may turn into another productive bat for this team.





He looked good in the seventh.  Too bad nobody else did.

Bob Sakamano

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 10:09:04 pm »
I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.

So, if that's the case... what would you folks expect the lineup to be? Lamb to third and Huff in right? Or minimize the Lamb at third experience by leaving Huff there, inserting Scott in right and bringing Lamb off the bench until Lance can more reasonably play the outfield?

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 10:22:43 pm »
Quote:

I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.

So, if that's the case... what would you folks expect the lineup to be? Lamb to third and Huff in right? Or minimize the Lamb at third experience by leaving Huff there, inserting Scott in right and bringing Lamb off the bench until Lance can more reasonably play the outfield?





The Link

The Astros website suggests that Berkman will be able to play on Tuesday (knock on wood), but as you suggest it will lkely be at first.  The article is worth reading for some choice Twinkie lines, such as "'I went to grab another gear,' Berkman said. 'And I dropped the transmission.'"
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2006, 11:48:26 pm »
Berkman has more than one gear?

Actually, I think he has ran very well this season.  While he will never be the fasted guy on the team he has come a long way from last season.

I think Lamb is on the bench Tuesday.
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jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 12:44:32 am »
Quote:

I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.

So, if that's the case... what would you folks expect the lineup to be? Lamb to third and Huff in right? Or minimize the Lamb at third experience by leaving Huff there, inserting Scott in right and bringing Lamb off the bench until Lance can more reasonably play the outfield?





Don't forget about Ensberg's part in this whole equation as well.  I don't envy Garner's situation right now.  He's got a lot of choices with no clear cut answer on how he should proceed.

In the end...I hope for one thing...that Lamb is on the bench.  The two players that continue to get discussed in trade rumors are Willy and Ensberg (at least the few I've read)...I want them both to play, and hope they play well, all the while increasing their value should Pup decide that we are buyers and pull the trigger on a deal.  Hopefully Willy's performance today did just that.

Limey

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 11:03:15 am »
Quote:

I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.



I'm not sure that all that stretching at 1st is good for one's groin.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 12:30:12 pm »
Quote:

In the end...I hope for one thing...that Lamb is on the bench.  The two players that continue to get discussed in trade rumors are Willy and Ensberg (at least the few I've read)...I want them both to play, and hope they play well, all the while increasing their value should Pup decide that we are buyers and pull the trigger on a deal.  Hopefully Willy's performance today did just that.




I really hope Purpura doesn't make decisions based on today's performance, or any one day's performance in particular.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 12:32:29 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.



I'm not sure that all that stretching at 1st is good for one's groin.





Berkman isn't a Mike Piazza "do the splits" style first-baseman, so I think the groin muscle will probably be faily safe. Berkman's skills at first seem to be more of the "scoops" variety, which doesn't require quite as much stretching, for the most part. Speaking as a non-"do the splits" first baseman myself, the strain is usually not that bad on the groin part as much as it is on the hamstrings and quads, unless you get stretched way out there.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2006, 12:35:23 pm »
Quote:


In the end...I hope for one thing...that Lamb is on the bench.  The two players that continue to get discussed in trade rumors are Willy and Ensberg (at least the few I've read)...I want them both to play, and hope they play well, all the while increasing their value should Pup decide that we are buyers and pull the trigger on a deal.  Hopefully Willy's performance today did just that.






Let me get this straight....you want two players who are not playing well to play and play well so you can trade them when they start playing well again?
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2006, 12:43:45 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think that even if Lance is cleared to play for the Cincy series in a couple of days, the Astros would prefer him to play first and attempt to minimize his mobility in the field as opposed to playing right.



I'm not sure that all that stretching at 1st is good for one's groin.




Berkman isn't a Mike Piazza "do the splits" style first-baseman, so I think the groin muscle will probably be faily safe. Berkman's skills at first seem to be more of the "scoops" variety, which doesn't require quite as much stretching, for the most part. Speaking as a non-"do the splits" first baseman myself, the strain is usually not that bad on the groin part as much as it is on the hamstrings and quads, unless you get stretched way out there.




Besides all that, Berkman is way too savvy to aggravate the injury. He's going to move the ding-dongs, twizzlers and snack mix that were strapped to his ankles and calves up to his midsection, to avoid tweaking the groin on a hasty stretch for foodstuffs. He may not have what you would call "situational awareness" at times, but the man knows how to manage his snacks.
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ybbodeus

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2006, 12:45:16 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


In the end...I hope for one thing...that Lamb is on the bench.  The two players that continue to get discussed in trade rumors are Willy and Ensberg (at least the few I've read)...I want them both to play, and hope they play well, all the while increasing their value should Pup decide that we are buyers and pull the trigger on a deal.  Hopefully Willy's performance today did just that.








Let me get this straight....you want two players who are not playing well to play and play well so you can trade them when they start playing well again?




That was beautiful.  Now tell him to get off your obstacle!  Oops, I see that you already did, that ALL of us get that prounouncement.  



Never mind.
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Limey

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2006, 12:47:11 pm »
Quote:

Berkman isn't a Mike Piazza "do the splits" style first-baseman, so I think the groin muscle will probably be faily safe. Berkman's skills at first seem to be more of the "scoops" variety, which doesn't require quite as much stretching, for the most part. Speaking as a non-"do the splits" first baseman myself, the strain is usually not that bad on the groin part as much as it is on the hamstrings and quads, unless you get stretched way out there.



I always imagined that your avatar was a good representation of you at 1B.
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jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2006, 02:03:52 pm »
Quote:

Quote:


In the end...I hope for one thing...that Lamb is on the bench.  The two players that continue to get discussed in trade rumors are Willy and Ensberg (at least the few I've read)...I want them both to play, and hope they play well, all the while increasing their value should Pup decide that we are buyers and pull the trigger on a deal.  Hopefully Willy's performance today did just that.






Let me get this straight....you want two players who are not playing well to play and play well so you can trade them when they start playing well again?





Yes, I may or may not be asking for alot in terms of those two players playing well in the near future.  I don't necassarily want them traded...I just want Pup to have as many trade options as possible come the deadline.  If Ensberg can't show that he's healthy enough to play then he has almost no value.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2006, 02:12:27 pm »
Quote:

Yes, I may or may not be asking for alot in terms of those two players playing well in the near future.  I don't necassarily want them traded...I just want Pup to have as many trade options as possible come the deadline.  If Ensberg can't show that he's healthy enough to play then he has almost no value.




Why should the Astros get rid of Ensberg if he is healthy enough to play?

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2006, 02:18:22 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Yes, I may or may not be asking for alot in terms of those two players playing well in the near future.  I don't necassarily want them traded...I just want Pup to have as many trade options as possible come the deadline.  If Ensberg can't show that he's healthy enough to play then he has almost no value.




Why should the Astros get rid of Ensberg if he is healthy enough to play?





That's what I want to know.  If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2006, 02:20:21 pm »
Quote:

That's what I want to know.  If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?




Particularly one with Ensberg's upside. If Ensberg were healthy and productive, I can't imagine who they'd trade for who'd be a significant upgrade, except maybe to get Tejada.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2006, 02:23:13 pm »
Quote:

the game with gar and the trainer. If he is hurt, we are probably in sell mode.




It's stunning that people think that the front office would decide to give up on the season or make a push on such a capricious basis. Heck, why not just flip a coin?

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2006, 02:31:07 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Berkman isn't a Mike Piazza "do the splits" style first-baseman, so I think the groin muscle will probably be faily safe. Berkman's skills at first seem to be more of the "scoops" variety, which doesn't require quite as much stretching, for the most part. Speaking as a non-"do the splits" first baseman myself, the strain is usually not that bad on the groin part as much as it is on the hamstrings and quads, unless you get stretched way out there.



I always imagined that your avatar was a good representation of you at 1B.





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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2006, 02:44:43 pm »
as a 1B, Mark was very light on his feet. NTTIAWWT.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2006, 02:49:45 pm »
Quote:

as a 1B, Mark was very light on his feet. NTTIAWWT.




I believe the word you are looking for is "nimble".  He may not like being called "light in his spikes", especially by his father.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2006, 02:52:57 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

That's what I want to know.  If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?




Particularly one with Ensberg's upside. If Ensberg were healthy and productive, I can't imagine who they'd trade for who'd be a significant upgrade, except maybe to get Tejada.





Because said player plays at a position where the team in question has another player performing well, making said player redundant or surplus.  That player can then be utilized as an asset to acquire another player where the team in question is weak or in need of prodution?  

This is all hypothetical.  By all recent reports, Ensberg will have proven jack shit by the time 7/31 rolls around.  If the most he's doing is swinging lightly in the cage, fuck it all... this seasons heading down the crapper in short order.  That doesn't mean sell off everyone one not nailed down to a long term contract or under club control.  Have these "fans" (Notice the "" to indicate the implied doubt of the veracity of the claim of Astros related fanaticism) been paying attention?  Drayton is not a sellout.  This aint't the fuckin' Marlins, we are talking about.  McLane isn't selling off all the parts of a winning team to increase the probability of a new stadium or a relocation agreement with Bud.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2006, 02:56:57 pm »
you said that, HH, not i. nor would i think that of him.

actually, nimble would not quite describe him either. he was not bad at picks, but he was more of a "block it with his chest" sort of guy. he was, after all, an offensive tackle.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2006, 03:29:21 pm »
Quote:

actually, nimble would not quite describe him either. he was not bad at picks, but he was more of a "block it with his chest" sort of guy. he was, after all, an offensive tackle.



I've not seen him play, but I've seen him.  "Nimble wouldn't be high on my list of "Words I Think Would be Used to Describe Mark".

And, yes, I know that I am in the most fragile of glass houses on this topic.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2006, 03:35:25 pm »
this is a...well, different Mark. in HS, he was 195-205. i think he discovered malted beverages in college.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2006, 03:37:21 pm »
Quote:


actually, nimble would not quite describe him either. he was not bad at picks, but he was more of a "block it with his chest" sort of guy. he was, after all, an offensive tackle.





You should have tied his left arm behind him and made him a catcher.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2006, 03:40:11 pm »
Quote:

this is a...well, different Mark. in HS, he was 195-205. i think he discovered malted beverages in college.




Didn't we all.  I weighed 175 pounds when I graduated HS.  I was once told I might want to gain a few pounds.  Can you imagine that?
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2006, 03:43:04 pm »
Quote:

this is a...well, different Mark. in HS, he was 195-205. i think he discovered malted beverages in college.



I used to weigh in at 185lbs, and was once described as "deft" (to which I, of course, replied "Pardon?").
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2006, 03:43:45 pm »
 That's what I want to know. If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?

You make it sound like the only players that get traded, are those that are either injured or underperforming.  And you wonder where in the hell I'm coming from?

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2006, 03:49:30 pm »
Quote:

Because said player plays at a position where the team in question has another player performing well, making said player redundant or surplus.  That player can then be utilized as an asset to acquire another player where the team in question is weak or in need of prodution?




How is Ensberg redundant or surplus?

First, Huff is a free agent at the end of the season. Whether the Astros wish to re-sign him, much less whether he re-signs with Houston, is anybody's guess at this point.

Second, Ensberg has shown that when healthy, he can be as productive as if not more productive than Huff.

Third, Huff can play first base or the outfield as well, meaning there's room for both of them.

The idea that Huff has been here for two weeks so Ensberg is now unnecessary is short-sighted.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2006, 03:53:12 pm »
Quote:

You make it sound like the only players that get traded, are those that are either injured or underperforming.  And you wonder where in the hell I'm coming from?




I still wonder why the Astros would be better off trading Ensberg rather than using him if he's playing well.

Or, for that matter, how anyone can base a judgement on Luke Scott on 15 plate appearances.

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2006, 03:59:06 pm »
i think most of us wonder that.
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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2006, 04:09:22 pm »
Quote:

That's what I want to know. If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?

You make it sound like the only players that get traded, are those that are either injured or underperforming.  And you wonder where in the hell I'm coming from?





No I'm not saying that.  I'm asking why would you want to trade good players?  What is the reasoning for your wanting to trade Ensberg, for example, if he is playing well?
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2006, 04:22:55 pm »
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Because said player plays at a position where the team in question has another player performing well, making said player redundant or surplus.  That player can then be utilized as an asset to acquire another player where the team in question is weak or in need of prodution?




How is Ensberg redundant or surplus?

First, Huff is a free agent at the end of the season. Whether the Astros wish to re-sign him, much less whether he re-signs with Houston, is anybody's guess at this point.

Second, Ensberg has shown that when healthy, he can be as productive as if not more productive than Huff.

Third, Huff can play first base or the outfield as well, meaning there's room for both of them.

The idea that Huff has been here for two weeks so Ensberg is now unnecessary is short-sighted.




Agree 100%.  I've posted previously that a healthy Ensberg, in this lineup with Huff, is the probably the best possible outcome.  I was answering the question as to why someone would trade a productive player.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

Unfortunately, while a healthy Ensberg may fix the offense it does nothing for the pitching melt-downs that keep bubbling to the surface.  That is, unless you subscribe to the the theory that says run support eases the burden on pitching.  

I can see some truth in that.  Really, it depends on the pitcher in question and the factors that lead to that pitcher giving up runs, i.e. was it a walk at a critical point when the pitcher was going for a K?  Was it good pitch and the hitter simply did more than anticipated with that pitch?  

Improving the offense should be job 1, in my opinion, not that it will get you anything with anyone.  The pitching isn't that far off.  Lidge has his thoroughly discussed pitching mechanics problem.  Purpura is replacing the ineffective pitchers with newbies.  I'm still of the opinion that Wheeler is over-throwing like he did earlier in his career.  Someone give me his cell#.  I'll drop him a line, maybe talk about some other pointers I have for him... yeah yeah, I know I'm being an asshole.  

The rest of the shit on the field, the sloppy play, has to improve as well if the Astros have any hopes of making the playoffs.  As far as I can tell, it's from trying too hard and not hardly trying.  Well, with exception of Scott doing a Lane impression of a Berkman moment.  That's just inexcuseable and makes it damn near impossible to enjoy watching the Astros play.
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JimR

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2006, 04:33:37 pm »
Wheeler is dropping his elbow and getting his hand under the ball. he has done this off and on, but it seems to be more frequent this year.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2006, 04:36:56 pm »
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Unfortunately, while a healthy Ensberg may fix the offense it does nothing for the pitching melt-downs that keep bubbling to the surface.  That is, unless you subscribe to the the theory that says run support eases the burden on pitching.




I think the offense is worse, relatively speaking, than the pitching.

jaklewein

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2006, 04:46:59 pm »
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That's what I want to know. If said players are playing well enough to command high trade value, why would you want to trade them?

You make it sound like the only players that get traded, are those that are either injured or underperforming.  And you wonder where in the hell I'm coming from?





No I'm not saying that.  I'm asking why would you want to trade good players?  What is the reasoning for your wanting to trade Ensberg, for example, if he is playing well?




Right, I never said Willy or Ensberg should be traded either...but the rumors have pegged both Willy and Ensberg as possible trade targets.  My point was...in the event the rumors have some merit, then I'd like to see them play (especially Ensberg since his recent injury problems probably reduces his value to zero), and hopefully play well...both to up their trade value and of course help the team in the present.

Secondly, most agree that offense is still the most pressing team need.  Would a healthy and productive Ensberg be the best and easiest solution to fixing it?  Yes, but there's no way to know if he'll be able to fill that void before the deadline, let alone be healthy enough to play the rest of the way.  Assuming Tejada cannot be had, then more offense must come from 3rd, 1st or the OF.  Right now Gar has an abundance of options from which he can mix and match...but really no clear cut producers at more than a couple of those positions.  Ensberg, Tavares, Burke, Lamb, Wilson, Lane and Scott are all question marks to a certain extent.  Some of those questions come via the stick...others via the glove.  Maybe at some point Pup/Gar will opt to part with one or two of them and a prospect to get a proven producer at one of those positions, namely the OF due to Berkman's injury.

That's all I'm saying.  What's the right move, or in this case no-move, that's for Pup and Gar to decide.

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Berkman is leaving
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2006, 04:53:21 pm »
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Wheeler is dropping his elbow and getting his hand under the ball. he has done this off and on, but it seems to be more frequent this year.




Thanks.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain