World Cup Update

[Limey]

An interesting weekend.  Portugal booked a place in the Round of 16 in unconvincing fashion, but they did get a nice goal from Deco.  At the same  time, Iran was eliminated.  The other place from Group D will go to Mexico or Angola, who played out a disappointing tie.  Mexico have the points, but can be overhauled by Angola if they lose and Angola beat Iran by enough to overhaul the 3 goal deficit.

If sure you're familiar with what befell Team USA.  Bottom line, they have to beat Ghana and look to Italy to beat the Czechs.  That'll put Italy and the US through, regardless of goal differences.  If Italy fail to beat CR, then the US will need to put a few past Ghana and trust to luck.

Brazil, like England, booked a place in the next round with a second unconvincing win over the plucky and unlucky Aussies.  Japan are all-but dead, needing to beat Brazil to have a chance of moving on.  Australia and Croatia play each other in their last group game, and the winner will move on with Brazil.

France hilariously played like shit against South Korea.  Their second poor performance sees them looking up at S. Korea and Switzerland with a game to play.  France need to beat the eliminated Togolese by 2 goals, which will see France overhaul one of the top two regardless of the result between SK and the Swiss.  If France lose or tie, they're done.

The last of the Game #2s are today, but Spain are cruising in Group H and I don't really think anyone cares about who moves on out of Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Ukraine.

Now things start to get good.  There will be four games a day between Tuesday and Friday as the group phase wraps up.  The last round of games in each group kick off  simultaneously, and there are many "win or go home" scenarios to be played out.

Tomorrow, Germany and Ecuador play to decide the winner and runner-up of Group A.  Later, England play Switzerland in similar circumstances in Group B.  Switzerland can still be caught by Trinidad & Tobago if they lose, but Tuesday's games aren't full of the frenzied mathematics that will play out later in the week.

Mexico and the USA face their days of destiny on Wednesday and Thursday respectively.  France are under the gun on Friday.

[MusicMan]

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France need to beat the eliminated Togolese by 2 goals, which will see France overhaul one of the top two regardless of the result between SK and the Swiss.  If France lose or tie, they're done.

Given the talk of Togo pulling out of the last game, how would that be treated for goal differential?  (Not that I can truly imagine this happening)

Edit: John Brewin on ESPN just said it would be treated as a 3-0 win, this giving the French their necessary differential.  Ugh.

[Limey]

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France need to beat the eliminated Togolese by 2 goals, which will see France overhaul one of the top two regardless of the result between SK and the Swiss.  If France lose or tie, they're done.

Given the talk of Togo pulling out of the last game, how would that be treated for goal differential?  (Not that I can truly imagine this happening)

Edit: John Brewin on ESPN just said it would be treated as a 3-0 win, this giving the French their necessary differential.  Ugh.

If Switzerland and Korea tie, Korea will get knocked out by France's superior goal difference.  That would be a travesty considering that Korea have scored 3 goals already in this tournament, while France have scored in their last 5 WC games dating back to 2002.

Edit:  My humble opinion, if Togo withdraw (they're eliminated now) then either the games played already are discounted, or everyone gets a 1-0 win.

[Limey]

Just for fun, it's worth pointing out that Togo's coach is called Otto Pfister, which challenges Argentina's coach Pekerman for the lewdest coach in the tournament.

honourable mention goes to the referee in the Brazil-Australia game:  Marcus Merk.

[Limey]

Spain, despite a scare from Tunisia, ran out 3-1 winners and booked a place in the last 16.  They will be joined by the winner of the Ukraine/Tunisia game to be played on Friday, with Ukraine the likely candidate having run out 4-0 winners over Saudi Arabia today.

[Curious George]

Thanks for the update ...

I've been watching a lot of the games. I think Argentina looks extremely strong and might just do it this year. But, you can never look past Brasil or Germany on their home turf. Although England has been said to underachieve, I still would hate to play them in a knock out game and if they get some momentum (like Rooney scoring a couple goals), they could catch fire and go all the way. Spain also looks very good as do my personal favorites the "Oranje".

It is still too early to tell after just two games, but enough hedging. Here are my picks to win it all - in order:
1. Germany
2. Argentina
3. Netherlands

I think the knock out stage will be fantastic with most of the top rated teams going head to head.

I was in France for WC 1998 and S Korea for 2002. Whether you like soccer or hate it, I can guarantee you that there is no better party in the world than to be there when the World Cup is happening. It's like the World Series happening for an entire month in 8-10 different cities with hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world there to celebrate and enjoy.

By the way, ESPN/ABC have to get Eric Wynalda off the air. His arrogance is killing their coverage.

[chuck]

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2. Argentina
3. Netherlands

You'll get to measure these two head-to-head Wednesday. Even if neither side plays at full strength it should be a match well worth watching.

The Spain - Tunisia game today was great fun, and I'm heartbroken for the Tunisians. The foul in the box that gave the Spanish a penalty kick was downright Uruguayan in its randomness.

[Limey]

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Thanks for the update ...

I've been watching a lot of the games. I think Argentina looks extremely strong and might just do it this year. But, you can never look past Brasil or Germany on their home turf. Although England has been said to underachieve, I still would hate to play them in a knock out game and if they get some momentum (like Rooney scoring a couple goals), they could catch fire and go all the way. Spain also looks very good as do my personal favorites the "Oranje".

It is still too early to tell after just two games, but enough hedging. Here are my picks to win it all - in order:
1. Germany
2. Argentina
3. Netherlands

I think the knock out stage will be fantastic with most of the top rated teams going head to head.

I was in France for WC 1998 and S Korea for 2002. Whether you like soccer or hate it, I can guarantee you that there is no better party in the world than to be there when the World Cup is happening. It's like the World Series happening for an entire month in 8-10 different cities with hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world there to celebrate and enjoy.

By the way, ESPN/ABC have to get Eric Wynalda off the air. His arrogance is killing their coverage.

Germany won't get close - they're just not good enough and will be found out in the Ro16 (unless they play England, over whom they have had a hoodoo since the 1970 debacle).

Holland, see above minus the hoodoo.

Argentina - wow!  However, they have yet to play anyone nearing world class, so they have had every opportunity to run out there and have fun.  Holland will be a sterner test.  Their back line is their weakness, and it has yet to be challenged.  Having said that, they do look the best right now and I wouldn't be surprised to see them win it.

Ironically, if there's a team in the tournament to beat Argentina, I believe it's England.  But England might have to go through Germany and Brazil to meet them, which is like the Astros having to beat the Braves and the 3rds to get to the WS.  Eh?  Oh.

[lc_db]

I'm not going to try and fool anyone, but I have NO clue what is good play and what isn't when it comes to World Cup.

Howevah.....  since it is the only sports I can watch live now, all I know is what entertains me.  The last half of the England/Trinidad-Tobago match entertained me.  The Brazil/Australia match entertained me.  The parts of the Mexico/Angola match I witnessed were HORRIBLE, even for this neophyte to watch.

I will give bonus points to the Brazil fans I see around Victoria Station.  Nice wardrobes.  Now THAT entertains me.

[Froback]

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But England might have to go through Germany and Brazil to meet them, which is like the Astros having to beat the Braves and the 3rds to get to the WS.  Eh?  Oh.

Actually given the Cup is being played in Germany and the hype surrounding the two teams it might be more like having to go through the Yankmes and Bawwwwston (two teams that have strong traditions and the media is fawning over).

[Curious George]

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Thanks for the update ...

I've been watching a lot of the games. I think Argentina looks extremely strong and might just do it this year. But, you can never look past Brasil or Germany on their home turf. Although England has been said to underachieve, I still would hate to play them in a knock out game and if they get some momentum (like Rooney scoring a couple goals), they could catch fire and go all the way. Spain also looks very good as do my personal favorites the "Oranje".

It is still too early to tell after just two games, but enough hedging. Here are my picks to win it all - in order:
1. Germany
2. Argentina
3. Netherlands

I think the knock out stage will be fantastic with most of the top rated teams going head to head.

I was in France for WC 1998 and S Korea for 2002. Whether you like soccer or hate it, I can guarantee you that there is no better party in the world than to be there when the World Cup is happening. It's like the World Series happening for an entire month in 8-10 different cities with hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world there to celebrate and enjoy.

By the way, ESPN/ABC have to get Eric Wynalda off the air. His arrogance is killing their coverage.

Germany won't get close - they're just not good enough and will be found out in the Ro16 (unless they play England, over whom they have had a hoodoo since the 1970 debacle).

Holland, see above minus the hoodoo.

Argentina - wow!  However, they have yet to play anyone nearing world class, so they have had every opportunity to run out there and have fun.  Holland will be a sterner test.  Their back line is their weakness, and it has yet to be challenged.  Having said that, they do look the best right now and I wouldn't be surprised to see them win it.

Ironically, if there's a team in the tournament to beat Argentina, I believe it's England.  But England might have to go through Germany and Brazil to meet them, which is like the Astros having to beat the Braves and the 3rds to get to the WS.  Eh?  Oh.

Gotta admit that I dont know all that much about the current German team. They look pretty darn good in taking it to a fairly decent Ecuador team so far at the half. Also the home country advantage is huge in a tournament like this. You might be right, though - they may not be good enough against top level teams like Brasil, Argentina, England etc.

About England and hoodoos, wouldn't you agree that Argentina has a bit of a hoodoo on England too? Remember the "hand of god", Beckham getting sent off and Scholes missed PK in France 98. I recall there being a lot of history between them (Eng-Arg) ... and it not working out  for England most of the time. Anyway, that would be a great matchup.

[No? in Austin]

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Ironically, if there's a team in the tournament to beat Argentina, I believe it's England.  But England might have to go through Germany and Brazil to meet them, which is like the Astros having to beat the Braves and the 3rds to get to the WS.  Eh?  Oh.

Don't underestimate the Equadorian team.  I was extremely impressed by their skills, both in terms of power and finesse.  Usually those teams will scare someone.  The only thing they have going against them is lack of tournament experience or success therein.  If they can get passed the jitters of facing up against a formidable opponent, they will take someone down before all is said and done.

[No? in Austin]

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Ironically, if there's a team in the tournament to beat Argentina, I believe it's England.  But England might have to go through Germany and Brazil to meet them, which is like the Astros having to beat the Braves and the 3rds to get to the WS.  Eh?  Oh.

Don't underestimate the Equadorian team.  I was extremely impressed by their skills, both in terms of power and finesse.  Usually those teams will scare someone.  The only thing they have going against them is lack of tournament experience or success therein.  If they can get passed the jitters of facing up against a formidable opponent, they will take someone down before all is said and done.

Wow, just found out that Germany is spanking the Equadorians to the tune of 3-0!  I am a jinx!!! I totally suck!

[MusicMan]

Shouldn't the spankings be limited to the S&M team?

[Limey]

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Don't underestimate the Equadorian team.  I was extremely impressed by their skills, both in terms of power and finesse.  Usually those teams will scare someone.  The only thing they have going against them is lack of tournament experience or success therein.  If they can get passed the jitters of facing up against a formidable opponent, they will take someone down before all is said and done.

No one in the last 16 can be overlooked (although there is typically one "nonce" team in there).  However, Ecuador amassed 18 points in qualifying, all but 16 of which were earned at home, at altitude, in Quito.  Their road haul was a massive two draws and the rest were losses.  They flattered to deceive in their first two games against a weak Costa Rica and a woeful Poland.

[No? in Austin]

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No one in the last 16 can be overlooked (although there is typically one "nonce" team in there).  However, Ecuador amassed 18 points in qualifying, all but 16 of which were earned at home, at altitude, in Quito.  Their road haul was a massive two draws and the rest were losses.  They flattered to deceive in their first two games against a weak Costa Rica and a woeful Poland.

Hold the phone!  The team that the Equadorian team put out there today against Germany was not their best team.  They rested five players, including Tenerio and Delgado.  Both Delgado and Tenerio approach world-class status in play.  No wonder the Germans marched right through them like they were Frenchmen!

BTW - this Equadorian team is the same team that beat both Brazil and Argentina in friendlies prior to the World Cup.  No other team has approach doing the same.  The team I saw play against Costa Rica was very powerful and yet able to finese some passes with great skill.

England is going to have their hands full the next round with this team.

[T. J.]

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England is going to have their hands full the next round with this team.

That's "England are going to have..."  I'm learnin'.  Right Limey?

[Froback]

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England is going to have their hands full the next round with this team.

That's "England are going to have..."  I'm learnin'.  Right Limey?

Or would it be "The English are going to have..."
I wonder if both versions are used...  Hmm, to think I have spoken the language my whole life and I haven't got a clue...  probably why I became an engineer!

[davek]

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 However, Ecuador amassed 18 points in qualifying, all but 16 of which were earned at home, at altitude, in Quito.  

Quite the home field advantage... Denver is the mile high city... Flagstaff Arizona is at a little over 7,000 feet... Quito is at 9,250 feet elevation...

It would be like playing a soccer (futball) game in Breckenridge...

[Limey]

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 However, Ecuador amassed 18 points in qualifying, all but 16 of which were earned at home, at altitude, in Quito.  

Quite the home field advantage... Denver is the mile high city... Flagstaff Arizona is at a little over 7,000 feet... Quito is at 9,250 feet elevation...

It would be like playing a soccer (futball) game in Breckenridge...

Unless you're playing Bolivia, who host their home games in La Paz.

[Limey]

Last update untiul the weekend (which is when the knockout stages start), as I'm off on a bidness trip.

Germany put Ecuador to the sword, 3-0 and head into their Ro16 game against Sweden on a high.  England crawfished into the #1 slot in their group with a 2-2 tie that was so infuriating and inept that the Germans are probably kicking themselves silly for not having tanked their game so as to play England.

Not that it mattered, but T&T lost to Paraguay 2-0 and Poland beat Costa Rica 2-1.

Not much of any import now until Thursday's games involving the USA, and everyone else in Group E, as anyone can qualify from that clusterfuck.  9am CST, IIRC.

[rifraft]

England looked much more active and dangerous with Rooney on the pitch, and they had better be b/c it looks like Michael Owen is out for the rest of the Cup.

 ESPN

[Limey]

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England looked much more active and dangerous with Rooney on the pitch, and they had better be b/c it looks like Michael Owen is out for the rest of the Cup.

 ESPN

Now the lunacy of Eriksson's squad selection is laid open for the world to see.  He took only 4 strikers, two of whom had only just recovered from broken foots (Owen & Rooney), one of whom is shite (Crouch) and one whom he'd never actually seen play, has never played in the Premiership, has never scored a professional goal and isn't old enough to shave, let alone buy a beer.  Dunno who the last one is?  Neither did anyone else until Sven picked him from obsurity to sit, unused, on the England bench.

Theo Walcott is the mystery 4th striker.  Sven picked him based on a recommendation from a scout and a video highlight reel.  Sven has still yet to see him play because he refuses to let him anywhere near a pitch.  If he didn't play him in the near-meaningless game against Sweden after Owen and Rooney were both subbed, then he's never going to do so out of choice.  So instead of the woefully inadequate 4-man strike force, he actually had 3.  Now 2.

Why does the English FA continue to pick complete planks as England manager?  Sven is a lame duck right now, and his replacement is his sidekick and fellow plank Steve McLaren.  England will never win the World Cup with these twats in charge.

End of rant.

[cougar]

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England looked much more active and dangerous with Rooney on the pitch, and they had better be b/c it looks like Michael Owen is out for the rest of the Cup.

 ESPN

Now the lunacy of Eriksson's squad selection is laid open for the world to see.  He took only 4 strikers, two of whom had only just recovered from broken foots (Owen & Rooney), one of whom is shite (Crouch) and one whom he'd never actually seen play, has never played in the Premiership, has never scored a professional goal and isn't old enough to shave, let alone buy a beer.  Dunno who the last one is?  Neither did anyone else until Sven picked him from obsurity to sit, unused, on the England bench.

Theo Walcott is the mystery 4th striker.  Sven picked him based on a recommendation from a scout and a video highlight reel.  Sven has still yet to see him play because he refuses to let him anywhere near a pitch.  If he didn't play him in the near-meaningless game against Sweden after Owen and Rooney were both subbed, then he's never going to do so out of choice.  So instead of the woefully inadequate 4-man strike force, he actually had 3.  Now 2.

Why does the English FA continue to pick complete planks as England manager?  Sven is a lame duck right now, and his replacement is his sidekick and fellow plank Steve McLaren.  England will never win the World Cup with these twats in charge.

End of rant.

English idioms make bitching about sports so much more enjoyable to read and/or listen to.

And yeah, if the English only brought 4 strikers they might be in a bit of trouble.  If they make it far into the knockouts the forwards they have left might need oxygen tents on the sidelines and between games.

[Limey]

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And yeah, if the English only brought 4 strikers they might be in a bit of trouble.  If they make it far into the knockouts the forwards they have left might need oxygen tents on the sidelines and between games.

Not just that; I see no way on God's green Earth that Tabloid Wayne doesn't get a suspension for yellow cards (the yellows are all reset for the knockout stage, but they start counting again and the same rule applies: 2 yellows or a red and you're suspended for the next game).

Luckily for England, we have a prolific midfield when it comes to scoring.  All our goals (save the OG by Paraguay) have come from there: Gerrard (2), Cole, J (1).  All of 'em have been corkers, too.

Anyway, GO USA! (And Italy)

[Tralfaz]

The Joe Cole goal against Sweden is my favorite of the tournament so far.  Next to the Italy OG vs US of course.

[Limey]

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The Joe Cole goal against Sweden is my favorite of the tournament so far.  Next to the Italy OG vs US of course.

I believe that I had the same thought process as the Swedish goalie for that one:  "He's banged that way over!  Hang on, it's dipping..."

[Uncle Charlie]

Score a nice goal (1st of the cup) and then get screwed a few minutes later on a very, very questionable PK call.

Crap.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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Score a nice goal (1st of the cup) and then get screwed a few minutes later on a very, very questionable PK call.

Crap.

If that was a penalty, futbol is a pussified sport. No wonder it doesn't catch on big time in America.

[Limey]

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Score a nice goal (1st of the cup) and then get screwed a few minutes later on a very, very questionable PK call.

Crap.

The Italians and Czechs are doing you a favour in the other game.  T'would be a shame to waste it...

[MusicMan]

Someone finally woke Bruce Arena up and told him to get Eddie in there...

[BudGirl]

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Someone finally woke Bruce Arena up and told him to get Eddie in there...

What's the deal with Eddie?

[EasTexAstro]

Clinton Dempsey....from Nacogdoches??

Wow. Small world....

[Limey]

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If that was a penalty, futbol is a pussified sport. No wonder it doesn't catch on big time in America.

Officiating so negligent that it's almost indistinguishable from malace would never allow a sport to catch on over here.  Unlike, say, basketball.

[No? in Austin]

USA eliminated.  A lot of it is their own doing too.  The official may of dealt the worse blow to them in this WC, but the cumulative reason for their ouster is their own lack of good play.

In short, don't blame anyone but yourselves boys.

[No? in Austin]

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If that was a penalty, futbol is a pussified sport. No wonder it doesn't catch on big time in America.

Officiating so negligent that it's almost indistinguishable from malace would never allow a sport to catch on over here.  Unlike, say, basketball.

Karl Malone would've been a great futbol power striker!  His flops would've been world class!

[edvio]

donovan was the goat for the US.  he looked lost.

[OldBlevins]

Can someone explain injury time to me, please?

[MusicMan]

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USA eliminated.  A lot of it is their own doing too.  The official may of dealt the worse blow to them in this WC, but the cumulative reason for their ouster is their own lack of good play.

In short, don't blame anyone but yourselves boys.

Exactly so.

Still, I can't help but wonder ho wthings would have differed if Reyna had gotten the bounce of the post against the Czechs...

[No? in Austin]

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Can someone explain injury time to me, please?

Whem a players goes down because of injury, the clock does not stop (as in most other sports).  It continues to run.  Initially, teams would use this to their advantage and fake a ton of injuries.  This was to kill time.

Eventually FIFA installed a rule that would mean a yellow card for a player if he was deemed faking an injury.  If, however, a player is injured and in need of assistance, the officials would keep track of the amount of time it took to care for the injured player and tack it on to the end of each 45 minute regulation time.  Those two measures have actually helped cure the stupid injury faking that was previlent at one time in FIFA matches.  The late 70's were brutal to watch with all the fake injuries at the end of matches.

[Limey]

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USA eliminated.  A lot of it is their own doing too.  The official may of dealt the worse blow to them in this WC, but the cumulative reason for their ouster is their own lack of good play.

In short, don't blame anyone but yourselves boys.

One goal in 3 games typically won't get it done.  For confirmation, look at France who are on the verge of crashing out (again) because they've score one goal in 2 games - they need to beat Togo by 2 in order to move on.

[No? in Austin]

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donovan was the goat for the US.  he looked lost.

He was pushed around so much by bigger, stronger men who were marking him.  His finesse skills never showed up in this World Cup.  I'm not sure what Donovan needs to do to re-invent some of his game, but to me, IMHO of course... the US needs a playmaker in the mid-field that is stronger than Donovan.  One that will not get pushed off the ball so easily.  Also one that can distribute the ball to a Donovan or Beasely.  Claudio Reyna is getting long of tooth and he looked awfully slow to me in these matches.

The young legs of the opponents, Ghana especially, took him to school.  Reyna was at one time a world class player.  The US needs to find the answer at midfield to take his place and it cannot be Donovan.  It must be a stronger, very sure of himself player.  Once you get that guy in place, Donovan, Beasely, Dempsey and Johnson become deadly players that can run on to balls played to them by that midfielder.

And if the US is serious, they need to ask McBride to retire already.  He's not a world class striker... never has been.  He's a great guy and he's done a lot for US soccer.  He has the biggest heart of any guy I've seen play for this squad.  But his skills are lacking.

Get a big striker with skills in the middle, perhaps Dempsey, to take over for McBride.

[Limey]

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Can someone explain injury time to me, please?

Whem a players goes down because of injury, the clock does not stop (as in most other sports).  It continues to run.  Initially, teams would use this to their advantage and fake a ton of injuries.  This was to kill time.

Eventually FIFA installed a rule that would mean a yellow card for a player if he was deemed faking an injury.  If, however, a player is injured and in need of assistance, the officials would keep track of the amount of time it took to care for the injured player and tack it on to the end of each 45 minute regulation time.  Those two measures have actually helped cure the stupid injury faking that was previlent at one time in FIFA matches.  The late 70's were brutal to watch with all the fake injuries at the end of matches.

Also, it's mandated that there's a 30 seconds added for each substitution.  Please don't ask me how they can add fractions of minutes for subs but only count injury time in whole minutes...because I just don't know.

[Limey]

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He was pushed around so much by bigger, stronger men who were marking him.  His finesse skills never showed up in this World Cup.  I'm not sure what Donovan needs to do to re-invent some of his game, but to me, IMHO of course... the US needs a playmaker in the mid-field that is stronger than Donovan.  One that will not get pushed off the ball so easily.  Also one that can distribute the ball to a Donovan or Beasely.  Claudio Reyna is getting long of tooth and he looked awfully slow to me in these matches.

The young legs of the opponents, Ghana especially, took him to school.  Reyna was at one time a world class player.  The US needs to find the answer at midfield to take his place and it cannot be Donovan.  It must be a stronger, very sure of himself player.  Once you get that guy in place, Donovan, Beasely, Dempsey and Johnson become deadly players that can run on to balls played to them by that midfielder.

And if the US is serious, they need to ask McBride to retire already.  He's not a world class striker... never has been.  He's a great guy and he's done a lot for US soccer.  He has the biggest heart of any guy I've seen play for this squad.  But his skills are lacking.

Get a big striker with skills in the middle, perhaps Dempsey, to take over for McBride.

It's four years to the next World Cup.  The job now is to build towards that, so any player who won't be around for that tournament should be gone from the picture as of today.

[OldBlevins]

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Can someone explain injury time to me, please?

Whem a players goes down because of injury, the clock does not stop (as in most other sports).  It continues to run.  Initially, teams would use this to their advantage and fake a ton of injuries.  This was to kill time.

Eventually FIFA installed a rule that would mean a yellow card for a player if he was deemed faking an injury.  If, however, a player is injured and in need of assistance, the officials would keep track of the amount of time it took to care for the injured player and tack it on to the end of each 45 minute regulation time.  Those two measures have actually helped cure the stupid injury faking that was previlent at one time in FIFA matches.  The late 70's were brutal to watch with all the fake injuries at the end of matches.

Also, it's mandated that there's a 30 seconds added for each substitution.  Please don't ask me how they can add fractions of minutes for subs but only count injury time in whole minutes...because I just don't know.

Thank you both.  I suppose no one knows why they don't just stop the clock.  That seems easier to me, but then that's what I'm used to.

[Limey]

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Thank you both.  I suppose no one knows why they don't just stop the clock.  That seems easier to me, but then that's what I'm used to.

You think it's bad now!  It's only relatively recently that they begun to announce the time to be added on.  Before that, it was known only to the referee, and that lead to some very tense moments at the end of games I can tell ya!

[No? in Austin]

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It's four years to the next World Cup.  The job now is to build towards that, so any player who won't be around for that tournament should be gone from the picture as of today.

Yup.  Means McBride, Keller and Reyna are history.  I liked what I saw from Dempsey, but then again I was stoked by what I saw from Donovan and Beasely in the last World Cup too.

I'm not sure who is on the junior team, I haven't kept up with it like I used to.  But who ever they tag as the next round of players to play for US Soccer needs to get some internationals in and perhaps play in some of the better leagues abroad.  I think midfield play is critical to the success of the next World Cup qualifying squad.  They need a kid who can really step up and make people notice the play of a good playmaker.

A midfielder who distributes well is akin to having a quarterback in football that just marches his team down the field to scoring opportunities.  But the added benefit of a midfielder is the ability to defend as well.  Midfield play is where you really discover your chances to compete internationally.

US just didn't have any of that this tournament.

[astro pete]

Can someone explain to me how that USA team was ranked 5th in the world?  I don't know the first thing about soccer, but this team looked, well, bad.

[OldBlevins]

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Thank you both.  I suppose no one knows why they don't just stop the clock.  That seems easier to me, but then that's what I'm used to.

You think it's bad now!  It's only relatively recently that they begun to announce the time to be added on.  Before that, it was known only to the referee, and that lead to some very tense moments at the end of games I can tell ya!

I imagine so. "He's driving for the goal!  He's past the defenders!  Time's up!"

[HudsonHawk]

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The late 70's were brutal to watch with all the fake injuries at the end of matches.

The fake injuries are brutal to watch now.  If I had a nickel for evertime some big pussy rolled around on the ground for 10 minutes in apparent agongy every time someone bumped him or stepped on his toe, I'd pay Mark Cuban's fines for him.

And I still don't see why they didn't solve that problem by simply stopping the clock.  That's SO much easier than trying to keep track and tacking on at the end.

[HudsonHawk]

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You think it's bad now!  It's only relatively recently that they begun to announce the time to be added on.  Before that, it was known only to the referee, and that lead to some very tense moments at the end of games I can tell ya!

Another reason I don't care for soccer (aside from there being ties and it being played by a bunch of crying pussies).  Not only is it played against a clock, but the lenght of time is a mystery.  Who knows when the game will end.  Could be 60 minutes, could be 70 minutes, no one knows.  I don't find that charming in the least.

[cougar]

Horrible game, horrible WC, and I guess I'll pull for Holland if I can bring myself to watch any more games.

Really though, the US team has no one to blame but themselves.  Arena was horrible with his lineup and I still don't know why he wouldn't put in a player that had scored 5 goals in 3 qualifiers until the situation was near hopeless.  

BTW, is Landon Donovan officially the most overrated player in the world?  That free kick near the corner of the box near the end was brutal.  Nowhere near playable.

And as for Ghana, and that guy Pingpong or whatever his name is in particular, I think I found their next coach since they seemingly have more turnover in that position than an African nation's government:

Prince Vultan from the movie Flash Gordon.  After all, they both have the same philosophy:  DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

[No? in Austin]

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The fake injuries are brutal to watch now.

Most of them are not fake.

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If I had a nickel for evertime some big pussy rolled around on the ground for 10 minutes in apparent agongy every time someone bumped him or stepped on his toe, I'd pay Mark Cuban's fines for him.

If they're faking it, they really risk a lot for their squad's side.  I think you mistake a fake injury to a fake dive or flop to draw a free kick or possession of the ball.  There is a difference.

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And I still don't see why they didn't solve that problem by simply stopping the clock.  That's SO much easier than trying to keep track and tacking on at the end.

Because like baseball, futbol around the world has a tradition about it that is very hard to change.  It does make sense to change obvious nuances like the clock, but then again it's been that way for years and it has some familiarity with it and quite frankly no one who follows the sports is crying for it to change.

Think of someone outside of NFL fandom questioning why their are television timeouts or other nuances in the game that to them makes logical sense to change.  Sort of what the XFL tried to do to market thier version of football.  It just takes a long time for traditions to change or evolve.

[Limey]

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The fake injuries are brutal to watch now.  If I had a nickel for evertime some big pussy rolled around on the ground for 10 minutes in apparent agongy every time someone bumped him or stepped on his toe, I'd pay Mark Cuban's fines for him.

And I still don't see why they didn't solve that problem by simply stopping the clock.  That's SO much easier than trying to keep track and tacking on at the end.

Used to be that us Brits could stand firmly on the moral high-ground here.  Now, that's not the case.  Witness Joe Cole drawing two yellows for Swedes who deigned to make a little contact.

It is the biggest bane on soccer and has been for decades.  FIFA seem powerless to stamp it out.  The trick would be to (a) use better referees, instead of this Little League "everyone gets to play" plan they use now; and (b) I'm a huge advocate of "trial by TV" after the game (it wouldn't work in-game because the delays would kill it worse than the faking).  If the TV clearly shows a player to have been faking, you expunge the card issued to the hapless defender and you suspend the faker for the next game.

Of course, (b) works when there is a next game.  In World Cup, where it's win or go home, the threat of retractive penalties won't be much of a deterrent.  That's where (a) comes in...

[No? in Austin]

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Can someone explain to me how that USA team was ranked 5th in the world?  I don't know the first thing about soccer, but this team looked, well, bad.

Politics.

[HudsonHawk]

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I think you mistake a fake injury to a fake dive or flop to draw a free kick or possession of the ball.  There is a difference.
 

I'm talking about when someone runs into them, or takes them out on a slide and they writhe around as if they are about to die for several minutes, then hop up and continue as if nothing happened.  How do their teammates put up with such shit, them rolling around on the field instead of up playing the game?  The constant whiny attitude and rolling and flopping are probably the single biggest turnoff for most most soccer non-fans.  That and they act like any goal they score is the first goal they've ever seen in their lives.

[HudsonHawk]

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Of course, (b) works when there is a next game.  In World Cup, where it's win or go home, the threat of retractive penalties won't be much of a deterrent.  That's where (a) comes in...

How many referees do they use in a match?

[Limey]

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Can someone explain to me how that USA team was ranked 5th in the world?  I don't know the first thing about soccer, but this team looked, well, bad.

the rankings are weighted towards competitive games vs. "friendlies".  You get more points for playing a match that counts, and/or more points for playing a highly ranked opponent.  The US's route to the World Cup involves many more qualifying matches than, say, England (or most other Europeans), so they have potential earn more ranking points.  Watch the Europeans move back up and the US sink back in the new season once we get to qualifying for the 2008 European Nations Cup.

Also, ABC/ESPN hyped Team USA, and Donovan in particular, out of sight (ESPN pimped Donovan as one of the top 5 players to watch in the tournament).

[Limey]

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How many referees do they use in a match?

The man in the middle has two assistants who run the sidelines (one in each half).  I see no reason why they couldn't add two more assistants to cover the vacant opposing lines, like the RF and LF Umps in MLB's playoffs.  They're all in contact by radio anyway (hence the Captain Scarlet mics).

There's also a "fourth official" who oversees substitutions, works the number board thingy, and takes all end of shit from the two coaches for the incompetance of his colleages.

[No? in Austin]

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Used to be that us Brits could stand firmly on the moral high-ground here.  Now, that's not the case.  Witness Joe Cole drawing two yellows for Swedes who deigned to make a little contact.

Two things:

1) Today's match shows the obvious reason you want to stop the fake flops in some way or manner, but you have to be careful how you do such.  The penalty kick awarded to the Ghana team was on a 50/50 ball that both players had a right to jump for.  Contact should be deemed incidental at that point unless it is obvious one of the men has clear rights to the ball over the other and the one pushed to gain advantage again.  The official was behind the two men and blew his whistle because from his angle it looked as if the advantage was regained by a push.  From the angle of the side judge, it was not so... the official should've used his side judge to help him make the ultimate decision.  But then you go to the other side of the pitch late in the game and an American defender clearly swept the legs from under the Ghana forward who was getting ready to fly past him.  It was just outside the box.  In that particular case, the Ghana forward was injured (upper thigh injury) because when you're going full force forward and someone swipes your legs out from under you, it hurts... and can really damage leg muscles.  The official waved play on, when that was obviously a time both a free kick and a possible red card for the defender were in order.

2) Used to be in the NFL that quarterbacks were free game like everyone else in the field.  If they had the ball, they were free game to tackle.  Then the quarterbacks started to drop like flies from vicious tackles from the now increasing bigger stronger more agile linemen and linebackers.  So the NFL put rules out that protected quarterbacks from contact.  Most linebackers reacted the same way Jack Lambert (if I'm not mistaken) reacted "What's next, they're going to put tu-tus on those pussies?".

If we really want to talk non-pussified sport, lets talk Rugby shall we.  Else one pussy sport calling another pussy sport a pussy has no sting to it.

[T. J.]

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Can someone explain to me how that USA team was ranked 5th in the world?  I don't know the first thing about soccer, but this team looked, well, bad.

the rankings are weighted towards competitive games vs. "friendlies".  You get more points for playing a match that counts, and/or more points for playing a highly ranked opponent.  The US's route to the World Cup involves many more qualifying matches than, say, England (or most other Europeans), so they have potential earn more ranking points.  Watch the Europeans move back up and the US sink back in the new season once we get to qualifying for the 2008 European Nations Cup.

Also, ABC/ESPN hyped Team USA, and Donovan in particular, out of sight (ESPN pimped Donovan as one of the top 5 players to watch in the tournament).

The rankings also take into consideration the last 8 (!) years of play.  They're more complicated than the BCS, and half as reliable.

Full rankings explanation:   FIFA Ranking Calculation

[cougar]

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Can someone explain to me how that USA team was ranked 5th in the world?  I don't know the first thing about soccer, but this team looked, well, bad.

the rankings are weighted towards competitive games vs. "friendlies".  You get more points for playing a match that counts, and/or more points for playing a highly ranked opponent.  The US's route to the World Cup involves many more qualifying matches than, say, England (or most other Europeans), so they have potential earn more ranking points.  Watch the Europeans move back up and the US sink back in the new season once we get to qualifying for the 2008 European Nations Cup.

Also, ABC/ESPN hyped Team USA, and Donovan in particular, out of sight (ESPN pimped Donovan as one of the top 5 players to watch in the tournament).

So basically you can get a high ranking by taking either the "Temple" route (scheduling the most brutal schedule around and hoping you win some) or the "Notre Dame" route (scheduling a ton of games but against the equivalent of service academies and beating up on 90% of them)?  Sounds like fun.

[Limey]

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The rankings also take into consideration the last 8 (!) years of play.  They're more complicated than the BCS, and half as reliable.

Full rankings explanation:   FIFA Ranking Calculation

FIFA doesn't use its own rankings.  If they did, USA would've been in Mexico's slot and vice versa.

[HudsonHawk]

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How many referees do they use in a match?

The man in the middle has two assistants who run the sidelines (one in each half).  I see no reason why they couldn't add two more assistants to cover the vacant opposing lines, like the RF and LF Umps in MLB's playoffs.  They're all in contact by radio anyway (hence the Captain Scarlet mics).

There's also a "fourth official" who oversees substitutions, works the number board thingy, and takes all end of shit from the two coaches for the incompetance of his colleages.

Do all the referees have the same authority?  If not, has it been considered that two or more true "referees" (as opposed to linesmen or such) working the pitch together may cut down on some of the shenanigans?

[No? in Austin]

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I'm talking about when someone runs into them, or takes them out on a slide and they writhe around as if they are about to die for several minutes, then hop up and continue as if nothing happened.

That doesn't happen as much any more.  What is commonplace now is this:

Hard tackle happens, the player who had possession of the ball is in danger of losing possession, so he flops (fakes being taken down) and the official blows his whistle to award them a free kick and continued possession of the ball.  It is tactical to flop in a way, similar to taking a charge in the NBA.  However, if a player fakes an injury, the thing that happens is the opposing squad kicks the ball out of the pitch, the official runs over to the man down and examines what is the complaint of injury.  After a while, they usually ask for a stretcher if the player down does not have the ability to recover.  If the official sees the injury is a fake of any kind, the yellow card comes out and that in turns causes for a dangerous position to put your team in.  They can even choose to pull out a red card too.  So you don't want to *fake* an injury, but you do want to tatically flop or fake a hard tackle if it keeps the advantage of the ball on your side.

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How do their teammates put up with such shit, them rolling around on the field instead of up playing the game?  The constant whiny attitude and rolling and flopping are probably the single biggest turnoff for most most soccer non-fans.

I'm not sure we're talking the same thing then.  Fake *injuries* are harder to get by with nowadays.  Fake hard tackles or flops aren't.  Limey spoke about Cole's flops to get possession of the ball and draw two yellow cards for the opposition.  But Cole never fake an injury... he risks too much to do that.  If a player is down for any length of time, they've either got a stinger or a dozy of an injury going for them to draw that sort of attention from the opposition that will kick the ball out of bounds and the official to run up to them as well.
 

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That and they act like any goal they score is the first goal they've ever seen in their lives.

Terrell Owens would have fun playing this game!

[cougar]

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Do all the referees have the same authority?  If not, has it been considered that two or more true "referees" (as opposed to linesmen or such) working the pitch together may cut down on some of the shenanigans?

I believe the linesmen are known as the referee's "assistants" and don't carry the same amount of authority as the actual referee.  They're just a couple other sets of eyes to help with spotting throw-ins, offsides calls, corner kicks, etc.  Could be mistaken.

[Limey]

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Two things:

1) Today's match shows the obvious reason you want to stop the fake flops in some way or manner, but you have to be careful how you do such.  The penalty kick awarded to the Ghana team was on a 50/50 ball that both players had a right to jump for.  Contact should be deemed incidental at that point unless it is obvious one of the men has clear rights to the ball over the other and the one pushed to gain advantage again.  The official was behind the two men and blew his whistle because from his angle it looked as if the advantage was regained by a push.  From the angle of the side judge, it was not so... the official should've used his side judge to help him make the ultimate decision.  But then you go to the other side of the pitch late in the game and an American defender clearly swept the legs from under the Ghana forward who was getting ready to fly past him.  It was just outside the box.  In that particular case, the Ghana forward was injured (upper thigh injury) because when you're going full force forward and someone swipes your legs out from under you, it hurts... and can really damage leg muscles.  The official waved play on, when that was obviously a time both a free kick and a possible red card for the defender were in order.

2) Used to be in the NFL that quarterbacks were free game like everyone else in the field.  If they had the ball, they were free game to tackle.  Then the quarterbacks started to drop like flies from vicious tackles from the now increasing bigger stronger more agile linemen and linebackers.  So the NFL put rules out that protected quarterbacks from contact.  Most linebackers reacted the same way Jack Lambert (if I'm not mistaken) reacted "What's next, they're going to put tu-tus on those pussies?".

If we really want to talk non-pussified sport, lets talk Rugby shall we.  Else one pussy sport calling another pussy sport a pussy has no sting to it.

All good things.  Officiating is so random that players learn to flop because otherwise the ref might miss the genuine foul.  This all goes back to poor officiating.

Good point about protecting the QBs.

As to Rugby, it's still pretty tough, but even they allows subs now.  Used to be that the official doctor had to certify you as unable to continue before you could be replaced.  That was true toughness:  15 on 15 death match until the final whistle blew.

[tophfar]

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Do all the referees have the same authority?  If not, has it been considered that two or more true "referees" (as opposed to linesmen or such) working the pitch together may cut down on some of the shenanigans?

Limey may correct me, but no.  the only referee that has any real authority is the actual referee.  the linesmen can signal that a player is offsides and what not, but if the referee doesnt make the call, then play goes on.

one of the good things you can say about just having the one, is you wont find an out of shape soccer ref.  they do just as much running as any player out there.

[Limey]

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Do all the referees have the same authority?  If not, has it been considered that two or more true "referees" (as opposed to linesmen or such) working the pitch together may cut down on some of the shenanigans?

the man in the middle is the be-all, end-all.  The "assistants" have a greater role now than in olden times (when they were simply called "linesmen"), mostly due to the introduction of gizmos.  First they had a button on their flag handle to buzz the referee and get his attention.  Now they are in constant voice communication.  Still, if the referee wants to ignore an assistant, he has carte blanch to do so.

[HudsonHawk]

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one of the good things you can say about just having the one, is you wont find an out of shape soccer ref.  they do just as much running as any player out there.

I'd rather find someone who can mediate the match fairly and properly.  I don't care how in or out of shape the official is, as long as he's not a complete tosser.

[No? in Austin]

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one of the good things you can say about just having the one, is you wont find an out of shape soccer ref.  they do just as much running as any player out there.

I'd rather find someone who can mediate the match fairly and properly.  I don't care how in or out of shape the official is, as long as he's not a complete tosser.

The biggest complaint coming out of this World Cup tournament is the officiating.  When such high profile men like Franz Beckenbauer says that it is horrible to watch these men take over a match with their constant incorrect decision, you know someone will react to it in some manner.  How the changes made will reflect the reaction is anyone's guess though.

On a side not, here in Austin there is a good mix of Maverick fans and Spurs fans (mostly Spurs fans).  Yesterday was a hey-day of whining by the Maverick fans in this area.  Everything was about the referees, and the incompentence therein.  While it was pointed out to said fans that the Mavericks shot 37% from the field in the Game 6 loss, that did not disuade the fans from calling for Stern's head on a platter.  Many of them accused the NBA of being fixed for rating sake and so forth.

One good comment I heard amidst the mass hysteria of NBA conspiracy was this: The fact of the matter is most NBA official just can't keep up with the talented younger players in the league.  Many of them are over sixty years of age and cannot run up and down the court like the players can.

So the officiating reflects that.

[OldBlevins]

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The rankings also take into consideration the last 8 (!) years of play.  They're more complicated than the BCS, and half as reliable.

Full rankings explanation:   FIFA Ranking Calculation

FIFA doesn't use its own rankings.  If they did, USA would've been in Mexico's slot and vice versa.

Speaking of "overranked," (or of teams snatching defeat from the jaws of victory if we go with the Mav's thread), what the f*** happened to the Czechs?

[edvio]

Donovan completely shanked a shot on goal.  And during the last 10 or so min., he had the ball near the goal on the right side and did nothing with it.  Just stood there and waited for the defense to arrive and by then it was too late.  reyna was lolly gaggin when he got ripped, didn't think the defender would charge so aggresively.  Should've punted that ball clear from there right when he got it.

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Horrible game, horrible WC, and I guess I'll pull for Holland if I can bring myself to watch any more games.

Really though, the US team has no one to blame but themselves.  Arena was horrible with his lineup and I still don't know why he wouldn't put in a player that had scored 5 goals in 3 qualifiers until the situation was near hopeless.  

BTW, is Landon Donovan officially the most overrated player in the world?  That free kick near the corner of the box near the end was brutal.  Nowhere near playable.

And as for Ghana, and that guy Pingpong or whatever his name is in particular, I think I found their next coach since they seemingly have more turnover in that position than an African nation's government:

Prince Vultan from the movie Flash Gordon.  After all, they both have the same philosophy:  DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

[Limey]

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Speaking of "overranked," (or of teams snatching defeat from the jaws of victory if we go with the Mav's thread), what the f*** happened to the Czechs?

They got bounced.  [Rimshot]

[Limey]

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The biggest complaint coming out of this World Cup tournament is the officiating.  When such high profile men like Franz Beckenbauer says that it is horrible to watch these men take over a match with their constant incorrect decision, you know someone will react to it in some manner.  How the changes made will reflect the reaction is anyone's guess though.

Just got back from watching the Aussies and Croatia go at it.  England's refereeing representative was in charge and, ably assited by his...ummm...assistants, managed to put on a show of the most bungling officiating yet seen.

Croatia took the lead after 2 minutes, but from the restart Australia pushed forward and their striker, Viduka, was taken down with a full arm tackle that would make any NFL safety proud.  No penalty.  Later the Aussies got a penalty for a clear handball, which they scored, and then gave away a goal when their 'keeper muffed an easy saved from a long range, not very well hit effort.

With the Aussies down 2-1 and needing to at least tie to go on, the fun really started.  Another blatant Croatian handball went unpunished.  The Aussies squared the match at 2-2 with a goal clearly scored from an offside position.  Then, Croatia's Simunic appeared to get his second yellow card for grabbing at the ref, but one of his teammates was written up and ejected (he was carrying a yellow already too).  Then Simunic was clearly given his 2nd second yellow, but not sent off.  Then, with seconds remaining, an Aussie was through on goal but hacked down in the penalty box, the ball squirted loose to another who tucked it home for the winner.  But the whistle had gone...penalty?  Nope.  The players stood around in consternation not knowing what was happening.  Was the game over?  Was it a penalty?  WTF?

Simunic ran up to the ref to inquire, grabbed his arm, was yellow carded again and actually sent off.  Only after all this was it clear that the game had ended.

Clus.  Ter.  Fuck.

[chuck]

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The Aussies squared the match at 2-2 with a goal clearly scored from an offside position.

"There was a hint of offside..."

The Link

[edvio]

reminds me of milo's pbp, except the game is really that screwed up.

[Limey]

Spain & Ukraine cruised into the next round, as did Switzerland who were trailed by a misfiring France who won their first game in the finals since 1998.  Against mighty Togo.

Starting tomorrow, it's win or go home; no more ties.  After regulation time (90 mins), tied games go to "extra" time, which is two halves of 15 minutes, and then to penalties if still tied thereafter.  No golden goal this time around.

The weekend's fixtures are very exciting:

Sat, 10am:  Germany vs Sweden
Sat, 2pm:   Argentina vs. Mexico
Sun, 10am:  England vs. Ecuador
Sun, 2pm    Portugal vs Netherlands

Other than the (on paper) lopsided tie between England and Ecuador, those are three absolute crackers.

[Bench]

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Spain & Ukraine cruised into the next round, as did Switzerland who were trailed by a misfiring France who won their first game in the finals since 1998.  Against mighty Togo.

Starting tomorrow, it's win or go home; no more ties.  After regulation time (90 mins), tied games go to "extra" time, which is two halves of 15 minutes, and then to penalties if still tied thereafter.  No golden goal this time around.

The weekend's fixtures are very exciting:

Sat, 10am:  Germany vs Sweden
Sat, 2pm:   Argentina vs. Mexico
Sun, 10am:  England vs. Ecuador
Sun, 2pm    Portugal vs Netherlands

Other than the (on paper) lopsided tie between England and Ecuador, those are three absolute crackers.

France vs. Spain should be an interesting matchup also, just to see who can piss it away first.

DVR question: What's a safe amount of time to add to scheduled recordings to ensure seeing all of the action in the event of extra time and penalties?

[cougar]

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Spain & Ukraine cruised into the next round, as did Switzerland who were trailed by a misfiring France who won their first game in the finals since 1998.  Against mighty Togo.

Starting tomorrow, it's win or go home; no more ties.  After regulation time (90 mins), tied games go to "extra" time, which is two halves of 15 minutes, and then to penalties if still tied thereafter.  No golden goal this time around.

The weekend's fixtures are very exciting:

Sat, 10am:  Germany vs Sweden
Sat, 2pm:   Argentina vs. Mexico
Sun, 10am:  England vs. Ecuador
Sun, 2pm    Portugal vs Netherlands

Other than the (on paper) lopsided tie between England and Ecuador, those are three absolute crackers.

France vs. Spain should be an interesting matchup also, just to see who can piss it away first.

DVR question: What's a safe amount of time to add to scheduled recordings to ensure seeing all of the action in the event of extra time and penalties?

Well, they go into overtime and then penalty kicks now in case of tie so the games could go as long as 3 hours.

[Limey]

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DVR question: What's a safe amount of time to add to scheduled recordings to ensure seeing all of the action in the event of extra time and penalties?

I'm adding an hour, but I'm not sure that's enough for extra time and penalties.  I've added 2 hours to the England timer just to be sure.  We'll see how it goes.

[chuck]

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DVR question: What's a safe amount of time to add to scheduled recordings to ensure seeing all of the action in the event of extra time and penalties?

I'm adding an hour, but I'm not sure that's enough for extra time and penalties.  I've added 2 hours to the England timer just to be sure.  We'll see how it goes.

Hey Limey, with respect to your own fandom - your interest, excitement, nervousness, etc. - how does an appearance by the English side in the World Cup compare to, say, the Astros in the World Series?

[Limey]

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Hey Limey, with respect to your own fandom - your interest, excitement, nervousness, etc. - how does an appearance by the English side in the World Cup compare to, say, the Astros in the World Series?

England's only ever made the final once, in the 1966 defeat of West Germany.  The tournament's been running for about 100 years now.  On that level, you can say England and the Astros are on a similar level, except that the World Cup is every 4 years which I'm not sure is better or worse.

Needless to say, I'm not getting my hopes up this time around either...unless FIFA decide to take action against Figo for his head-butt - which they have said they're unlikely to do.  The Portugal-Holland game was a disaster, but I was hoping for extra time so that some more players could get ejected and be suspended for next weekend's quarter final!

[Tralfaz]

Portugal have looked very unimpressive and snuck through a week group.  Deco, thier best player is suspended and Ronaldo will be at less than 100% and seems over matched at this level.  Van Basten, not inserting Ruud in that game was suicidal.  England are winning ugly, and hopefully will continue for a couple more games.

[Limey]

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Portugal have looked very unimpressive and snuck through a week group.  Deco, thier best player is suspended and Ronaldo will be at less than 100% and seems over matched at this level.  Van Basten, not inserting Ruud in that game was suicidal.  England are winning ugly, and hopefully will continue for a couple more games.

If England actually wake up, they will beat anyone in this tournament.  Even the much lauded Argentina really only shone in the 6-0 dismissal of lowly S&M, but it's often forgotten that they only sneaked past the Ivory Coast 2-1 before playing a 0-0 tie with Holland.  Heinze should've been sent off after his goof and hack-down.  They were very, very lucky to get past Mexico.

Holland's display last night was horrific.  They created the atmosphere in which that game was played.  They clearly targeted Ronaldo for rough treatment, and succeeded in getting him out of the game (and possibly the next game) by kicking lumps out of him.  They also were diving like some kind of Greg Louganis - Karl Malone hybrid.  The referee started to bite on the flies, and the rest is histrionics.

Ironically, the two worst offenses were by Portuguese - Robben getting kicked in the chest in the penalty box and Figo's headbutt - and they went essentially unpunished.

However, the root cause of this debacle, like all the others we've seen already this World Cup, lies on the doorstep of FIFA.  They have instructed the referees to clamp down on time wasting and other such BS and yet they seem powerless to punish the blatant faking and cheating going on.  It's like they never watch tape of those they are about to oversee, and so are surprised and duped when Robben hits the deck like a felled deer.

Watch out for the Australia - Italy game this morning.  If the Aussies finish with 11 men, I'll be gobsmacked.

Edit to add:  FIFA has announced that it will take no further action against Figo over his clear headbutt.  They say that they are powerless to intervene when the referee has issued punishment during the game (a yellow card in this case).  What a fucking joke!  Tell that to Italy's de Rossi, who was red carded, quite rightly, for his attack on McBride, and for which FIFA extended his one match ban to four.  FIFA are also considering overturning Deco's suspension, despite his first yellow card offense being far worse than that for which Mastroeni was straight-redded as it carried all the malice that Mastroeni's didn't.

And you thought MLB was crooked and incompetant...

[HudsonHawk]

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Hey Limey, with respect to your own fandom - your interest, excitement, nervousness, etc. - how does an appearance by the English side in the World Cup compare to, say, the Astros in the World Series?

England's only ever made the final once, in the 1966 defeat of West Germany.  The tournament's been running for about 100 years now.  On that level, you can say England and the Astros are on a similar level, except that the World Cup is every 4 years which I'm not sure is better or worse.

Needless to say, I'm not getting my hopes up this time around either...unless FIFA decide to take action against Figo for his head-butt - which they have said they're unlikely to do.  The Portugal-Holland game was a disaster, but I was hoping for extra time so that some more players could get ejected and be suspended for next weekend's quarter final!

Pardon my ignorance, but why does "England" field a team, when "England" is not a country?  I understand the historical differences between England, Scotland, Wales, etc., but do they need special dispensation from FIFA to field separate teams in international play?  Would it not be to the Queen's advantage to be able to pick players from all over Britain?  They field one team for the Olympics and stuff, and I was just curious as to why they do it differently for the World Cup.

[Andyzipp]

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Pardon my ignorance, but why does "England" field a team, when "England" is not a country?  I understand the historical differences between England, Scotland, Wales, etc., but do they need special dispensation from FIFA to field separate teams in international play?  Would it not be to the Queen's advantage to be able to pick players from all over Britain?  They field one team for the Olympics and stuff, and I was just curious as to why they do it differently for the World Cup.

Like most things in life, I'd say blame the Irish.  Somehow it's their fault.

[No? in Austin]

 

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Robben getting kicked in the chest in the penalty box...

That play was absolutely incredible to watch.  The Portugese defender came in with a kick similar to a Jackie Chan move.  And the ball was clearly pass him and had he not done his hi-karate move on Robben, it would've been a clear chance for a goal.  Wife and I were watching it whilest enjoying a Saturday brunch.  She turns to me and asks "Can he do that?  Is that legal?".  I respond "No, that's a clear foul and should be a penalty kick for Holland."  "So why doesn't the referee whistle the Portugal player for the foul?" she asks.  "Because they're incompetent as all get out. Worse. Officials. Ever!" I says.  "Oh" she replys as she goes on to do something else instead of watching the match with me.  Smart lady.

[T. J.]

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Pardon my ignorance, but why does "England" field a team, when "England" is not a country?  I understand the historical differences between England, Scotland, Wales, etc., but do they need special dispensation from FIFA to field separate teams in international play?  Would it not be to the Queen's advantage to be able to pick players from all over Britain?  They field one team for the Olympics and stuff, and I was just curious as to why they do it differently for the World Cup.

I wondered the same thing myself.  And then I wondered what we ever did before Wikipedia:   Link

History, rivalries, hooliganism, etc. etc.  Sounds like it's mainly "we've always done it that way."

[Limey]

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Pardon my ignorance, but why does "England" field a team, when "England" is not a country?  I understand the historical differences between England, Scotland, Wales, etc., but do they need special dispensation from FIFA to field separate teams in international play?  Would it not be to the Queen's advantage to be able to pick players from all over Britain?  They field one team for the Olympics and stuff, and I was just curious as to why they do it differently for the World Cup.

England is a country, as is Scotland. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is a protectorate (IIRC).  Each has its own Football Association and so each enters its own team.  No reason why there couldn't be a United Kingdom team, but when the non-English parts of the equation had good teams there was no desire to unify.  Now, the others suck and would probably not contribute many, if any, players to the unified team, so what's the point?

[HudsonHawk]

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England is a country, as is Scotland. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is a protectorate (IIRC).  

Sorry, I thought the country was the United Kingdom.  I didn't know Scotland and England were two different sovereign nations.  

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Each has its own Football Association and so each enters its own team.  No reason why there couldn't be a United Kingdom team, but when the non-English parts of the equation had good teams there was no desire to unify.  Now, the others suck and would probably not contribute many, if any, players to the unified team, so what's the point?

Well it doesn't bother me, like I said, I was just wondering because there is a unifed team for the Olympics.  I would have thought the World Cup would be done similarly.  I really wasn't aware of how the different teams compared to each other talentwise.  I just would have though bigger would be better in terms on potential talent.

[Tralfaz]

Ryan Giggs would have looked nice on that left side in '98.

[Limey]

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Ryan Giggs would have looked nice on that left side in '98.

And in every year before or after that for the last 15 years, until (probably) 2004.  George Best (N.I.) would've looked fantastic everywhere when he was playing.  Ditto Dennis Law (SCT).  Overall, however, England being by far the most populous of the home countries typically has the better staffed team while the others will unearth a gem every once in a while.

[Limey]

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England is a country, as is Scotland. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is a protectorate (IIRC).  

Sorry, I thought the country was the United Kingdom.  I didn't know Scotland and England were two different sovereign nations.  

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Each has its own Football Association and so each enters its own team.  No reason why there couldn't be a United Kingdom team, but when the non-English parts of the equation had good teams there was no desire to unify.  Now, the others suck and would probably not contribute many, if any, players to the unified team, so what's the point?

Well it doesn't bother me, like I said, I was just wondering because there is a unifed team for the Olympics.  I would have thought the World Cup would be done similarly.  I really wasn't aware of how the different teams compared to each other talentwise.  I just would have though bigger would be better in terms on potential talent.

Here's Wikipedia's effort at explaining the tortuous machinations that is (are?) Britain.  Or you can just go to Python:  "We are all Britans...and I am your King!"

[cougar]

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England is a country, as is Scotland. Wales is a principality and Northern Ireland is a protectorate (IIRC).  

Sorry, I thought the country was the United Kingdom.  I didn't know Scotland and England were two different sovereign nations.  

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Each has its own Football Association and so each enters its own team.  No reason why there couldn't be a United Kingdom team, but when the non-English parts of the equation had good teams there was no desire to unify.  Now, the others suck and would probably not contribute many, if any, players to the unified team, so what's the point?

Well it doesn't bother me, like I said, I was just wondering because there is a unifed team for the Olympics.  I would have thought the World Cup would be done similarly.  I really wasn't aware of how the different teams compared to each other talentwise.  I just would have though bigger would be better in terms on potential talent.

Here's Wikipedia's effort at explaining the tortuous machinations that is (are?) Britain.  Or you can just go to Python:  "We are all Britans...and I am your King!"

You wacky Brits what with your watery tarts lobbing scimitars at people and your anarco-syndiclist communes.

I will, only with great effort, forgoe further Holy Grail references.

[Bench]

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Ryan Giggs would have looked nice on that left side in '98.

And in every year before or after that for the last 15 years, until (probably) 2004.  George Best (N.I.) would've looked fantastic everywhere when he was playing.  Ditto Dennis Law (SCT).  Overall, however, England being by far the most populous of the home countries typically has the better staffed team while the others will unearth a gem every once in a while.

I heard today that Mastroeni got suspended for the next three international games for his red card-earning challenge. If that's true, not being able to punish Figo because the referee already took action on the pitch is typical FIFA bs. Who's running that place? Bud Selig?

[Limey]

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I heard today that Mastroeni got suspended for the next three international games for his red card-earning challenge. If that's true, not being able to punish Figo because the referee already took action on the pitch is typical FIFA bs. Who's running that place? Bud Selig?

More grist for the mill.  FIFA is a joke run by a fat (German) crook.  This chaos is all of his design.  I am convinced that he will not only spare Figo but also Deco.  He has an anti-English bias which is barely hidden most of the time, and will not allow things like rules and precedent to get in the way of fucking us over.

Of course, if England have designs on winning the tournament, Portugal with or without Deco and Figo should not be a problem.  Perhaps my focus on this issue says more about my concern over England's lack of than it does about fair play...

[Limey]

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I heard today that Mastroeni got suspended for the next three international games for his red card-earning challenge. If that's true, not being able to punish Figo because the referee already took action on the pitch is typical FIFA bs. Who's running that place? Bud Selig?

FIFA today reaffirmed Deco's one-game suspension.  It also said that there would be no further action against Figo as the referee saw the incident (anyone watching on TV will know that this is clearly bullshit) and deemed it only yellow card-worthy (also completely bullshit - the rules are very clear and give the referee no option: a headbutt is an automatic red).

Oh well, I suppose FIFA going 1-2 in this weaseling isn't too bad.  It's way above their average.

[Tralfaz]

So who shows up today, Spain or France?  Both have pulled some famous choke jobs, and both can be brilliant on any given day.   France are scoring again, and Spain were strong in a weak group but this is about the time they traditionally crash and burn.  

The winner gets Brasil(barring the end-all upset this afternoon) in the Quarters.  If it's France, that's a re-match of the '98 Final.  If Zidane retires, again, that would be the game to go out in.  Go Blues.

[T. J.]

Limey/HH, did you see John Lopez's story today about the Scots in Germany who are there to follow England to root against them? Link

Goes a long way to explain yesterday's question about why there isn't a unified UK team.

[Limey]

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The winner gets Brasil(barring the end-all upset this afternoon) in the Quarters.  If it's France, that's a re-match of the '98 Final.  If Zidane retires, again, that would be the game to go out in.  Go Blues.

I think, and hope, that Spain will prevail.  Not for any other reason than that France are playing worse than England, so I do not want another complete shower stinking up the semis.  If there's going to be one bad team in the final (and there very often is), I want it to be England.

You may not be aware of some background needle to this game.  Spain has a terrible problem with racism among the fans at games, with visiting black players regularly being the target of abuse that includes racial slurs to the always intelligent monkey noises.  FIFA has consistently failed to deal with it (shock) and the Spanish FA tells anyone who'll listen that it's not really happeneing and everyone else does it anyway (which they don't or at least not to the epidemic proportions of the Spanish).

Anyway, Spain's coach Luis Aragones notoriously called France's Thierry Henry "a black shit" in 2004.  I think Henry might have a little payback on his mind today.

[Limey]

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Limey/HH, did you see John Lopez's story today about the Scots in Germany who are there to follow England to root against them? Link

Goes a long way to explain yesterday's question about why there isn't a unified UK team.

A couple of years ago I was in the Richmond Arms to watch the Six Nations Rugby.  England were playing France.  I got there early enough to catch the end of the earlier match in which a dismal Scotland side were thumped by a bad Wales side.  Once the game ended, the bar started filling up with Scots who were there to cheer on France over England.  France truimphed and the Scots went home happy.

Strange bunch.  They've been in cahoots with the French to try to fuck over the English for almost a millennium.  Not unsurprisingly, we're still here.

[davek]

If a Scot did manage to sneak onto an English side it would probably result in the fastest own goal in FIFA history...

[Limey]

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If a Scot did manage to sneak onto an English side it would probably result in the fastest own goal in FIFA history...

There's some weird (but true) story of a national side getting beaten by 20+ goals to nothing.  Can't find the story right now, but IIRC the losing team were protesting some injustice done to them in the previous game.  They kicked off, passed the ball back to the defense, who calmly rolled it into their own net.  They kicked off again to restart the game, and did it again.  They continued to do this for the entire game.

[Limey]

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If a Scot did manage to sneak onto an English side it would probably result in the fastest own goal in FIFA history...

Of course, this presumes that the Scot in question could hit a cow's arse with a banjo, which is highly unlikely.

[davek]

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If a Scot did manage to sneak onto an English side it would probably result in the fastest own goal in FIFA history...

Of course, this presumes that the Scot in question could hit a cow's  arse  with a  banjo , which is highly unlikely.

Are you making a Deliverance reference towards the mighty descendents of William Wallace?...

[Tralfaz]

Or maybe a Rod Stewart urban myth reference...

[Limey]

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Are you making a Deliverance reference towards the mighty descendents of William Wallace?...

William Wallace?  Or Mel Gibson...

[Phil_in_CS]

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In Nuremberg, organisers revealed 70,000 England fans who flooded the city drank 1.2MILLION pints of beer - an average of 17 pints each

Astonished bar keeper Herrmann Murr said: "Never have I seen so many drink so much in such little time."

 the link

[drew corleone]

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In Nuremberg, organisers revealed 70,000 England fans who flooded the city drank 1.2MILLION pints of beer - an average of 17 pints each

Astonished bar keeper Herrmann Murr said: "Never have I seen so many drink so much in such little time."

Then he should come by my tailgate before UT games this season.
 the link

[Limey]

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Then he should come by my tailgate before UT games this season.

Come on, man!  They're drinking Germany dry of beer!

(Oh, and those would be proper, Imperial pints.  17 of those is equivalent to 21.25 US pints.  Each.)

[Phil_in_CS]

I saw something the other day about damage to the plants and trees in parks in Berlin from all the England fans pissing there....

edited to add that 21.75 pints is 2.7 gallons

[Tralfaz]

That's alot of bad beer.  Seriously, are there any good German beers sold in America?  I asked this at my favorite local, Irish drinking establishment and the keep just laughed.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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That's alot of bad beer.  Seriously, are there any good German beers sold in America?  I asked this at my favorite local, Irish drinking establishment and the keep just laughed.

No, they actually only export the crappy beer.  I spent 3 yrs there as a teenager (loved their not existent drinking age) and you will never sniff one of their good beers in the U.S.  At least from what I've seen.  Not to mention, I don't know any american willing to wait 15 minutes, the time it takes to pour a good pilsner as any self-respecting German would know.

[HudsonHawk]

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They've been in cahoots with the French to try to fuck over the English for almost a millennium.  Not unsurprisingly, we're still here.

This bond was consecrated when Sophie Marceau got knocked up by Mel Gibson, rather than Longshanks's gay son.  It's been downhill ever since.

[Limey]

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This bond was consecrated when Sophie Marceau got knocked up by Mel Gibson, rather than Longshanks's gay son.  It's been downhill ever since.

One of Gibson's many interesting "interpretations" of history in his more recent movies.

[drew corleone]

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Then he should come by my tailgate before UT games this season.

Come on, man!  They're drinking Germany dry of beer!

(Oh, and those would be proper, Imperial pints.  17 of those is equivalent to 21.25 US pints.  Each.)

But this is the talkzone... why would I want to let facts get in the way of talking out of my ass?

Joking, of course...

I thought about the differences in whatever brand of Brau the Brits are drinking and the Bud Light we ice down at 18th and San Jac, but it would go against my jingoistic nature to cede superiority to our mates across the pond.

I will not argue that they must have been having one hell of of a time.

[otterj]

Hopefully, Germany will play England.

Those guys have absolutely no history at all...

What time is it, a German asks?, Brits respond, 'five to one'

The last time they played in World Cup: England 5 Germany 1

[Tralfaz]

That road will more than likely lead through Brasil, though I'm hoping for a French upset tomorrow.  The Germany/Argentina game this morning should be epic.

[Guinness]

The opinion here is that the real World Cup final is this afternoon, Germany v Argentina.

[tophfar]

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This bond was consecrated when Sophie Marceau got knocked up by Mel Gibson, rather than Longshanks's gay son.  It's been downhill ever since.

One of Gibson's many interesting "interpretations" of history in his more recent movies.

if you had a chance to write in a love scene to bang sophie marceau, would you have been able to resist?  history books be damned.

[drew corleone]

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This bond was consecrated when Sophie Marceau got knocked up by Mel Gibson, rather than Longshanks's gay son.  It's been downhill ever since.

One of Gibson's many interesting "interpretations" of history in his more recent movies.

Not to take the thread too far off-topic, but as I understand it, wasn't Longshanks a fairly well-liked king?

[Limey]

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Not to take the thread too far off-topic, but as I understand it, wasn't Longshanks a fairly well-liked king?

So say Longshanks' court historians...

[HudsonHawk]

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Not to take the thread too far off-topic, but as I understand it, wasn't Longshanks a fairly well-liked king?

By everyone except those he fucked over.

[Limey]

Leading 1-0 with 20 mins left, they removed their playmaker, Riquelme, and main strike, Crespo, in favour of defensive replacements.  Then, after Germany tied the game, they were doomed unless they could win the penalty shoot-out.  They didn't, and they're gone.

Ha fucking ha.

[davek]

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Leading 1-0 with 20 mins left, they removed their playmaker, Riquelme, and main strike, Crespo, in favour of defensive replacements.  Then, after Germany tied the game, they were doomed unless they could win the penalty shoot-out.  They didn't, and they're gone.

Ha fucking ha.

Of course one wouldn't choose to go to a penalty shoot-out using the backup goalkeeper...

Lehmann was nails...

[Limey]

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Of course one wouldn't choose to go to a penalty shoot-out using the backup goalkeeper...

Lehmann was nails...

Correct.  They chose to sit on a 1-0 lead and got burned for it.  The change in goalies was just one of those things that happens.

Note:  This is the same tactic that England's coach Sven-Groan Eriksson uses.  He learned his trade in Italy, and will tweak the team to try to hold a 1-goal advantage.  hence his sides get burned consistently when they concede late tying goals.  Drives me fucking mad, it does.

[austro]

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Note:  This is the same tactic that England's coach Sven-Groan Eriksson uses.  He learned his trade in Italy, and will tweak the team to try to hold a 1-goal advantage.  hence his sides get burned consistently when they concede late tying goals.  Drives me fucking mad, it does.

I guess we'll get to see if Italy gets burned for this strategy, too.  They certainly seem to be packing it in now.

[austro]

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I guess we'll get to see if Italy gets burned for this strategy, too.  They certainly seem to be packing it in now.

Apparently not: they just went up 2-0.

[otterj]

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Of course one wouldn't choose to go to a penalty shoot-out using the backup goalkeeper...

Lehmann was nails...

Correct.  They chose to sit on a 1-0 lead and got burned for it.  The change in goalies was just one of those things that happens.

Note:  This is the same tactic that England's coach Sven-Groan Eriksson uses.  He learned his trade in Italy, and will tweak the team to try to hold a 1-goal advantage.  hence his sides get burned consistently when they concede late tying goals.  Drives me fucking mad, it does.

Sounds similiar to the prevent defense in the other futbol. Playing not to lose instead of playing to win often backfires, it seems. Usually better to blitz on 3rd and 20...

[davek]

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I guess we'll get to see if Italy gets burned for this strategy, too.  They certainly seem to be packing it in now.

Ahhhh, but "packing it in" with a lead is not necessarily a bad strategy... Particularly if you have the right strikers for counterattacks...

I think Sir Limey's chief problem with the Argentine strategy was the removal of the offensive players, not the decision to try and protect a lead...

[Limey]

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I think Sir Limey's chief problem with the Argentine strategy was the removal of the offensive players, not the decision to try and protect a lead...

Correct.  Once they guys were gone, they're gone.  No ability to go back on the offensive once the tying goal was conceeded.

[austro]

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Correct.  Once they guys were gone, they're gone.  No ability to go back on the offensive once the tying goal was conceeded.

Yeah, I thought that in a close game that might likely wind up tied and in penalty kicks, one tried to save a substitution so that a reliable penalty kicker could be substituted on in the 89th (or 119th) minute.  Did Argentina use up all of their substitutions well before the end of regulation?  Were they forced to do so by injury?  Or was this just a brain cramp?

[Limey]

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Yeah, I thought that in a close game that might likely wind up tied and in penalty kicks, one tried to save a substitution so that a reliable penalty kicker could be substituted on in the 89th (or 119th) minute.  Did Argentina use up all of their substitutions well before the end of regulation?  Were they forced to do so by injury?  Or was this just a brain cramp?

A little bit of both.  The 'keeper had to be subbed for injury, but Riquelme and Crespo were taken off out of choice - all long before the 90 minutes was up.

As soon as Riquelme and Crespo were off, Klinsmann threw on two attacking players.  Argentina couldn't get out of their  own half very much after that.

[The Spleen]

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Leading 1-0 with 20 mins left, they removed their playmaker, Riquelme, and main strike, Crespo, in favour of defensive replacements.  Then, after Germany tied the game, they were doomed...

So Jim Mora got the Argentina job after all?

[HudsonHawk]

A couple of questions as I watch England/Portugal....

1.  Why did Rooney get the red card?  For stepping on the guys balls, or because he shoved Ronaldo?  Should get a medal for the latter.

2.  Why is Lampard on your squad?  He fucking blows.

[Limey]

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A couple of questions as I watch England/Portugal....

1.  Why did Rooney get the red card?  For stepping on the guys balls, or because he shoved Ronaldo?  Should get a medal for the latter.

2.  Why is Lampard on your squad?  He fucking blows.

1.  None of the media outlets seem to know yet.  It'll be cleared up once the referee submits his written report.  However, it looked like the ref had not seen the ball stomp as he was sinply indicating a free kick to the scum ...errr... Portuguese.  It was not until the push and the ensuing melee that he decided to eject Rooney.  If that's the case, after Figo got away with a head-butt, it's bullshit.  Regardless, England had chances to win the game with 11 and 10 men.  They didn't.  Portugal, conversely, were not the better side and it's harsh on England that they go on.  Lucky fuckers.

2.  He's a good player who's had a mare of a tournament.

[No? in Austin]

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1.  Why did Rooney get the red card?  For stepping on the guys balls, or because he shoved Ronaldo?  Should get a medal for the latter.

I thought it was a strange call by the official.  He didn't look as if he had any idea what he was going to do other than award a free kick to Portugal.  He looked down at the player to tell him to get up or get off the pitch... or maybe even call in the stretcher guys.  But since the guy was grabbing the cup area (and futbol players don't wear any), he looked up right away towards Rooney.  But in rushes Ronaldo, who is screaming at the official that Rooney should get a red card (as it looked to me).  Rooney shoves him and yells at him to STFU!  Oficial then makes up his mind and red cards him.

And it was a bad call.  IMHO of course.

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2.  Why is Lampard on your squad?  He fucking blows.

He had a horrible match and his penalty kick attempt reflected it.  But honestly, I thought Gerard had a worse match than him.  When I watched Lampard play early in this tournament, I thought he was going to come away with a goal or two before all was said and done.  He did well early in this tourney to make space for himself and get off some booming kicks on goal.  Seems the other squads decided to mark him closer and force him to create his own space rather than roam free.

He didn't do so well trying to make space for himself and it showed most in this match.  BTW - my own impression of the game was that the right team won.  England has to be commended for the huge heart they showed, but technically, the Portugese squad was better prepared and had a much better plan of attack than the English.

[Zac D]

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1.  None of the media outlets seem to know yet.  It'll be cleared up once the referee submits his written report.  However, it looked like the ref had not seen the ball stomp as he was sinply indicating a free kick to the scum ...errr... Portuguese.  It was not until the push and the ensuing melee that he decided to eject Rooney...

Okay, here's my beef with that situation. Neville (who I believe had the armband after Beckham was substituted) should know - as his whole team should know - that Rooney is... well... a moron.

IF the red card wasn't awarded for the stomp to the bearings, then it was for shooting off his mouth and shoving Ronaldo after the play. (Obviously.) As the captain, knowing full well that you've got a hothead with a history in a potential situation with the ref and a pissant opponent, shouldn't you be running full sprint up there to a.) get between Rooney and Ronaldo/the ref or b.) bear-hug him and drag him away? Or at least be screaming at your teammates who are closer to the play to do so?

Obviously Rooney's temper is Rooney's own responsibility, but since it's so well-known, it seems like his mates could have dragged him away and let him vent toward the sideline or something. Anything that might keep him to just a yellow.

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2.  He's a good player who's had a mare of a tournament.

Yeah. I like Lampard a lot, and it's a shame he never really found his top form.

[Limey]

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BTW - my own impression of the game was that the right team won.  England has to be commended for the huge heart they showed, but technically, the Portugese squad was better prepared and had a much better plan of attack than the English.

Clearly I'm biased, but I disagree with you for what I believe are genuine, rather than jingoistic, reasons.  Without Deco there was little imagination in Portugal's build-up play; and once Figo ran out of gas they had nothing.  I think England were really getting on top in the second half, and looked so much more dangerous once Lennon came in for Beckham (I've been screaming for a replacement right-midfielder for about two years now, and it's nice to see that I'm not simply insane).  Lennon scaed the shit out of the Portuguese and had a very, very good shout for a penalty turned down.  Had Rooney kept his head, I think England win going away.

Don't forget that that Portugal had 60 minutes with a man advantage, and spent that entire time lobbing shots into the crowd from 25 yards or running up their own backsides.  Only in the very latter stages did they look truly dangerous, and then only because Hargreaves was the only Englishmen who could still move his legs.  Something that was a huge factor in the shoot-out.

[No? in Austin]

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BTW - my own impression of the game was that the right team won.  England has to be commended for the huge heart they showed, but technically, the Portugese squad was better prepared and had a much better plan of attack than the English.

Clearly I'm biased, but I disagree with you for what I believe are genuine, rather than jingoistic, reasons.  Without Deco there was little imagination in Portugal's build-up play; and once Figo ran out of gas they had nothing.  I think England were really getting on top in the second half, and looked so much more dangerous once Lennon came in for Beckham (I've been screaming for a replacement right-midfielder for about two years now, and it's nice to see that I'm not simply insane).  Lennon scaed the shit out of the Portuguese and had a very, very good shout for a penalty turned down.  Had Rooney kept his head, I think England win going away.

Don't forget that that Portugal had 60 minutes with a man advantage, and spent that entire time lobbing shots into the crowd from 25 yards or running up their own backsides.  Only in the very latter stages did they look truly dangerous, and then only because Hargreaves was the only Englishmen who could still move his legs.  Something that was a huge factor in the shoot-out.

Good points all.  I thought originally, at the beginning moments of the match, the English side was content to let the game come to them.  Portugal seemed to be the only side who tried to build something that resembled an attack.  The English side seemed to be a slow, methodical build with no real attack scheme that I could see.

What you said about the second half is absolutely true and perhaps reason enough to change my mind that the English side finally outplayed the Portugal side.  I guess my initial impression of the slow, somewhat confused attack of the English at the beginning of the match was hard to leave out of my overall impression of who the better side was today on the pitch.  I've of course, changed my mind and now think that it's a shame the English player no longer had the legs to complete their penalty kicks well enough to take the match.