Wild-Assed Speculation on Lidge

[Texifornia]

I have only seen him pitch once on TV this year, so this speculation (not yet upgraded to an opinion) is based on GZ / TZ commentary, and highlights, but I wonder is LIdge tipping his pitches?

His fastball velocity looks good, and although I can't comment on movement, it seems to get hit a lot more than a 97 mph FB should. Sometimes it seems as though hitters are sitting on it. It also seems as though the slider in the dirt for a swinging strikeout has been absent. Perhaps hitters know to lay off of it.

Either by tipping his pitches or perhaps a predictable pitch selection pattern, it seems the hitters know what's coming.

[JimR]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Texifornia]

Quote:
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O.K., thanks.

[JimR]

last night, it looked like the Cards were sitting on his FB. a good MLB hitter does not care how many mph a straight fast ball has. they will hit it. he had a good slider last night, and it ultimately saved him.

[juliogotay]

Ok, help me out here. I'm not arguing, just trying to understand. If Lidge has one of the game's top sliders (fact), his slider was good last night (fact), a slider starts out looking like a fastball until the batter has already commited when it darts into the dirt, how can a batter sit on a fastball? Is it the elevation? He consistently throws sliders at the knees and fastballs about belt high. Is that how they id a fastball?

[geezerdonk]

Maybe every now and then (like once per hitter) one of those fastballs ought to be chin high and tight. They can still sit on the fastball, but they will be real light on their cleats.

[das]

"True enough. He's struggling because the Astros want him to throw more fastballs and because he has never had great command of that pitch.

Scouting reports travel quickly. Lidge could tell right away the Cardinals were sitting on his heater.

"They were in a fastball mode," he said."

The Cardinals knew he'd been throwing more fastballs. They also knew he was leaving too many of them in the fat part of the strike zone.

John Rodriguez opened the ninth by doubling to deep center on a 95 mph fastball.

Up stepped Pujols.

"I wasn't going to walk him," Lidge said. "I was going to go after him."  He opened with a slider. Pujols swung and missed.

He came back with a 96 mph fastball, and Pujols crushed it to the deepest part of the ballpark. There's a lesson for tonight's game in there somewhere."
The Link
Why does Justice think the "Astros" want Lidge to throw more fastballs?

[homer]

Quote:
"True enough. He's struggling because the Astros want him to throw more fastballs and because he has never had great command of that pitch.

Scouting reports travel quickly. Lidge could tell right away the Cardinals were sitting on his heater.

"They were in a fastball mode," he said."

The Cardinals knew he'd been throwing more fastballs. They also knew he was leaving too many of them in the fat part of the strike zone.

John Rodriguez opened the ninth by doubling to deep center on a 95 mph fastball.

Up stepped Pujols.

"I wasn't going to walk him," Lidge said. "I was going to go after him."  He opened with a slider. Pujols swung and missed.

He came back with a 96 mph fastball, and Pujols crushed it to the deepest part of the ballpark. There's a lesson for tonight's game in there somewhere."
The Link
Why does Justice think the "Astros" want Lidge to throw more fastballs?

Garner has been quoted as saying as much.

[Limey]

Quote:

Quote:
Why does Justice think the "Astros" want Lidge to throw more fastballs?

Garner has been quoted as saying as much.

So Garner has been tipping Brad's pitches.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
...how can a batter sit on a fastball?

The basic premise of sitting on a fastball is to look for a zone to hit said fastball.  Namely, if you have a defined zone where you want to swing (nothing low and away, nothing at the knees... give that to the pitcher if he can hit that zone... look for middle in, protect the outside of the plate though...).  That is how you sit on a pitch.  It's not the speed so much as the location plus the speed.

If a slider at the knees is coming and you're commited to not swinging at FB at the knees, then you're not going to swing.  When the Astros say that Lidge needs to throw more fastball, it is with the intent of having him hit locations more so than just throwing a ball hard.  If you hit the knees with a FB, be you Billy Wagner, Dan Wheeler (who when at his best is pounding that zone), Octavio Dotel (who for two great seasons lived on a fastball at the knees) or even Brad Lidge, you've established that you can, at any given time hit that location to the detriment of the hitter.  If said hitter has in mind that he has to either spoil that pitch or swing to make contact, *THEN* a slider like Lidge is killer.

Notice that Spezio and Miles both swung at the sliders.  Why?  Because they felt Lidge was going to hit that zone and they had to protect or spoil or make contact (moreso in the case of Spezio).  In the case of Encarnacion and Rodriquez, Lidge and Ausmus sorta outthunk themselves in that they felt Rodriquez was cheating on the slider down and he could be had with a high and away FB.  Lidge missed the spot given where Ausmus set up.  Same with Encarancion.

Lidge still needs to establish that pitch, but his slider is still a deadly pitch to have in such cases as last night.  He was actually very good last night, hard to realize it of course, but he was.

[lc_db]

Whatever the reason...  in the last week I've seen at least two instances (Miles last night and Phillips in the Reds' game) where batters take "nasty" two strikes sliders from Lidge.  Not check swings...  almost a flat out takes.


My guess is that they were guessing, and guessed right.

[toddthebod]

With two strikes (and particularly in an 0-2 count), Lidge tends to waste a couple of pitches.  So hitters are learning that they aren't going to get a strike in an 0-2 count and they take the pitch knowing that they are going to get a slider out of the zone.

[juliogotay]

OK, good explanation. Sounds like Lidge needs to pound the FB at the knees. Looks likes he's abandoned tinkering with other pitches in game situations.

[JimR]

sitting on a FB is not that hard. my last HS team had a rule that they did not swing at curves until they had two strikes unless the pitcher hung one. a FB spins differently than a curve or a slider. it requires concentration to be sure, but it is not that difficult. if the McCallum Knights could do it--and they could--certainly the Cardinals can do it.

[homer]

Quote:
Whatever the reason...  in the last week I've seen at least two instances (Miles last night and Phillips in the Reds' game) where batters take "nasty" two strikes sliders from Lidge.  Not check swings...  almost a flat out takes.


My guess is that they were guessing, and guessed right.

The reason they are taking these sliders is because they are guessing Lidge can't hit his spot(s) with the FB... and he hasn't been in many/most of his appearances this year. If Lidge can't hit the corner with the FB, the slider is not as effective.

[juliogotay]

OK, good. I forgot about the spin issue.

[JimR]

no. where he is throwing his FB has nothing to do with the effectiveness of his slider. it has everything to do with the effectiveness of his FB.

[No? in Austin]

Quote:
no. where he is throwing his FB has nothing to do with the effectiveness of his slider. it has everything to do with the effectiveness of his FB.

Yes.  I want to make sure I didn't confuse everyone with my tome on "establishing" his fastball.  He can get folks out with his slider alone (hence why I thought he was pretty good last night all things considered).  He can also get folks out with his fastball alone (again, see: Dotel, Octavio or Wagner, Billy).  Location is what he can key off of for deciding on using his slider or fastball.  However, if he is throwing his fastball at the knees, his slider heading towards the knees becomes a powerful weapon in that a slider looks like a fastball in terms of speed.  When he throws it, especially when the hitter is behind in the count, makes it a very good pitch to throw.  It's not a waste pitch, it's an out pitch.

[astrojo]

Quote:
Astros say that Lidge needs to throw more fastball,  

Did anyone else picture Lidge dancing around in his half shirt with Garner coming in and saying "I need more fastball...I got a fever and the only prescription is MORE FASTBALL!"

Christopher Walken, GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

[Texifornia]

Quote:
last night, it looked like the Cards were sitting on his FB. a good MLB hitter does not care how many mph a straight fast ball has. they will hit it. he had a good slider last night, and it ultimately saved him.

So in addition to perhaps having trouble with location, his fastball has no movement. That explains a lot....straight fastballs tend to travel some distance in the Major Leagues.

What, if anything can be done to recover the movement on a fastball? Arm angle? grip? release point?

[Limey]

Quote:
What, if anything can be done to recover the movement on a fastball? Arm angle? grip? release point?

Did he ever have much movement on his FB?  Some people just don't (see Wagner, Billy).  I think his fastball was so successful because hitters were shit-scared of the slider.  The split-second hesitation was enough to make his flat fastball mostly unhittable.

Some pitchers, I'm sure, naturally impart movement on a fastball.  Non-BB example: I can't kick a (soccer)ball without curling it.  I've had people marvel at my ability to bend it like Beckham, but the truth is, I cannot kick a ball straight to save my life.  In order to be able to compete at all, I had to learn to control the arc so that it ended up where it was intended to go.  Those marvelling at my arcs had no idea that I was similarly impressed by the laser passes they were able to make.

[JimR]

arm angle and grip both affect movement. as Limey said, some have natural movement. Lidge throws mostly over the top, and i bet he throws a 4-seamer. that will tend to be straight.

[davek]

Quote:
Non-BB example: I can't kick a (soccer)ball without curling it.  I've had people marvel at my ability to bend it like Beckham, but the truth is, I cannot kick a ball straight to save my life.  In order to be able to compete at all, I had to learn to control the arc so that it ended up where it was intended to go.  Those marvelling at my arcs had no idea that I was similarly impressed by the laser passes they were able to make.

For a moment I thought you were describing your golf game...