I guess anything can happen

[Astroholic]

I though both Lopez and Justice wrote good artilces.  All in the same day?

[Limey]

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I though both Lopez and Justice wrote good artilces.  All in the same day?

Justice is deluded if he thinks that erasing Bonds' homers from the records is going to restore to greatness the likes of Aaron, Ruth, Robinson etc.  For one, I don't believe that, simply by passing them on the dinger list, Bonds will take their place in history: his reputation is too tarnished at this point.  There will always be those who will think of Bonds as the greatest, but erasing him from the records will simply create another Pete Rose.

He's hit what he's hit and he's taken what he's taken.  History will remember all of this.  Justice wants to clean things up so that the unenlightened of the future get Justice's version of history, not someone else's.

As for Lopez' article, file that one under "no shit Sherlock".  Backe has to be very good to replace Clemens and the Astros' #3 starter.  Wow!

[jasonact]

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I though both Lopez and Justice wrote good artilces.  All in the same day?

Justice is deluded if he thinks that erasing Bonds' homers from the records is going to restore to greatness the likes of Aaron, Ruth, Robinson etc.  For one, I don't believe that, simply by passing them on the dinger list, Bonds will take their place in history: his reputation is too tarnished at this point.  There will always be those who will think of Bonds as the greatest, but erasing him from the records will simply create another Pete Rose.

He's hit what he's hit and he's taken what he's taken.  History will remember all of this.  Justice wants to clean things up so that the unenlightened of the future get Justice's version of history, not someone else's.

As for Lopez' article, file that one under "no shit Sherlock".  Backe has to be very good to replace Clemens and the Astros' #3 starter.  Wow!

When it's said and done, I think it's very possible that Bucholz will be the one who "replaces" Clemens. He may not end up with the ERA or other stats, but he could certainly replace his win total, especially with an improved offense, which is really all that matters.

[Astroholic]

yep, I agree with you assessment on the Bonds records being replaced, but I think a suspension might be a valid path for the commish to take.

I also agree with the "No Shit Sherlock" statement on replacing Clemens.
I just found it interesting that Lopez could make a valid argument without referring to something irrelevant.

[EasTexAstro]

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I though both Lopez and Justice wrote good artilces.  All in the same day?

Justice is deluded if he thinks that erasing Bonds' homers from the records is going to restore to greatness the likes of Aaron, Ruth, Robinson etc.  For one, I don't believe that, simply by passing them on the dinger list, Bonds will take their place in history: his reputation is too tarnished at this point.  There will always be those who will think of Bonds as the greatest, but erasing him from the records will simply create another Pete Rose.

He's hit what he's hit and he's taken what he's taken.  History will remember all of this.  Justice wants to clean things up so that the unenlightened of the future get Justice's version of history, not someone else's.

As for Lopez' article, file that one under "no shit Sherlock".  Backe has to be very good to replace Clemens and the Astros' #3 starter.  Wow!

When it's said and done, I think it's very possible that Bucholz will be the one who "replaces" Clemens. He may not end up with the ERA or other stats, but he could certainly replace his win total, especially with an improved offense, which is really all that matters.

Buchholz is young and not too far removed from injury. He came back late last year, but how will he hold up, endurance-wise, over the full MLB season? No way to know.

The Astros did have Roger out there for 6-7 solid innings almost every start last year. Taylor will have some tough starts where he might not have the leash Roger might have.

Can he replace the wins? Possibly, but the pen will probably have to get more innings in, too. So, if he can replace the wins, how many extra losses would the extra wear on the pen cause?

I don't think it is as simple as trying to replace wins. Buchholz is young and still somehwat an unknown.

[pravata]

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...I also agree with the "No Shit Sherlock" statement on replacing Clemens.
I just found it interesting that Lopez could make a valid argument without referring to something irrelevant.

also agree The Link

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I don't think any one single pitcher is going to replace what Clemens gave the team last year, other than maybe Clemens himself.  His W-L record aside, he gave them 200+ innings of quality pitching.  It's unreasonable to expect a rookie to go out there and come close to matching what Clemens produced on the mound.  

Realistically, it's going to come down to what Backe, Rodriguez, and the bullpen can do over the long haul that will influence how this season turns out.  Although, 6 games in, the offense isn't too shabby.  With any luck, they keep up the pace and offset any pitching struggles that arise.  If Buchholtz has a solid rookie year he will have made his contribution.

[Foghorn]

If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

[Astroholic]

Bud has always been know to make the right decision.  Right?

[astro pete]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why?

[MusicMan]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why should Bonds not be punished for breaking the rules?

The media have done an unbelievably poor job of pointing out that steroids were banned starting in 1991.

[JackAstro]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why should Bonds not be punished for breaking the rules?

The media have done an unbelievably poor job of pointing out that steroids were banned starting in 1991.

Bonds is a prick. I'd love to see him suffer professionally as much as anyone. But if they suspend Bonds for evidence of past rule-breaking, then MLB's going to have to suspend guys like Sheffield and Giambi this season, too. And then it's unclear where you draw the line on how far back you start digging. 1991? Do they take away Caminiti's MVP?

It's a little bit ridiculous to start applying justice this season for things that happened years ago. If he fails a test this season, by all means suspend him. Otherwise, fuck it. He's doing a good enough job of destroying his own legacy - he doesn't really need Selig slapping him on the wrist.

[Foghorn]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why should Bonds not be punished for breaking the rules?

The media have done an unbelievably poor job of pointing out that steroids were banned starting in 1991.

Why not?  Because it is horseshit.  You got a urine sample that will satisfy the union and the eventual arbitrator who will oversee this case?  You got a video of him and Sheffield shooting each other in the ass, with something other than just their peckers?

MLB had/(has) a horrible steroid problem, and that cocksuck with a bad hairpiece is looking to push the blame somewhere, anywhere other than on him or the other owners.  "We didn't know, we never knew players were injecting steroids."  He claims this bullshit for 10 FUCKING years after Ben JOhnson.  For 6 FUCKING years after Lyle Alazado, dying of cancer, tells a little known publication called Sports Illustrated that he believes 100% that steroid abuse led to his cancer.  Gee, track athletes do it (to get faster), football players do it (to get stronger), yet it never dawns on Pud that his players may e doing it.  Even though everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, knew ballplayers were popping greenies like they were Pez.

Fuck this bullshit.

[Reuben]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why should Bonds not be punished for breaking the rules?

The media have done an unbelievably poor job of pointing out that steroids were banned starting in 1991.

Why not?  Because it is horseshit.  You got a urine sample that will satisfy the union and the eventual arbitrator who will oversee this case?  You got a video of him and Sheffield shooting each other in the ass, with something other than just their peckers?

MLB had/(has) a horrible steroid problem, and that cocksuck with a bad hairpiece is looking to push the blame somewhere, anywhere other than on him or the other owners.  "We didn't know, we never knew players were injecting steroids."  He claims this bullshit for 10 FUCKING years after Ben JOhnson.  For 6 FUCKING years after Lyle Alazado, dying of cancer, tells a little known publication called Sports Illustrated that he believes 100% that steroid abuse led to his cancer.  Gee, track athletes do it (to get faster), football players do it (to get stronger), yet it never dawns on Pud that his players may e doing it.  Even though everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, knew ballplayers were popping greenies like they were Pez.

Fuck this bullshit.

I'm with you. The whole situation is really ugly, fucked up, and a shame. But "taking away" certain records or stats is a childish way to try to fix it. Bud Selig, or Richard Justice, are wasting their time pretending they have a time machine and can go go back and "wipe out" steroid-tainted numbers.

I am interested to see what the Mitchell investigation turns up, but inevitably, for every one player suspended there'll be 10-20 juicers who get away unpunished and untainted. Selig and the union leaders definitely need to acknowledge that they really fucked up in all this, and there's only so much that can be done about the past now. The focus should be on totally cleaning the game up in the present.

[Astroholic]

So, do you (Bud) allow Barry to top the true stars (Ruth, Aaron, already Mays, Robinson)?  I think not.  That would tarnish the game even further, if that is possible.

[Foghorn]

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So, do you (Bud) allow Barry to top the true stars (Ruth, Aaron, already Mays, Robinson)?  I think not.  That would tarnish the game even further, if that is possible.

Bud has already allowed Barry to top the true stars.  Too little, too late.

Listen, Bonds pre 1999 steroid monster was an inner circle HOFer.  Its not like the guys was marginal then became Babe Ruth.


Every player has the down side.  Ruth did it versus all white players.  Williams lost a hunk of his carrer due to the war.  Aaron was...well, Aarom was a Brave.  Bonds has tarnished his legacy.  People will forget how great he was earlier in his career and will lump everything on the steroids.

[MusicMan]

I don't think for a second the records should be erased.  Everyone knows what he did and how he did it.

But if Mitchell's book report shows that Giambi, Bonds, Sheffield, our your left nut used beyond reasonable doubt, then they should be disciplined accordingly.

[Astroholic]

Those are all valid facts.  I just hate that he was allowed to tarnished a great career and many records due to juice.  I am not sure what MLB does.

[BizidyDizidy]

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If Bud Selig suspends Barry Bonds in 2006 for things he did preior to 2005, I'm going to kick that mother fucker right in the sphincter.  Repeatedly.

Why should Bonds not be punished for breaking the rules?

The media have done an unbelievably poor job of pointing out that steroids were banned starting in 1991.

I'm with you on this, but do you have a cite?

[Reuben]

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I don't think for a second the records should be erased.  Everyone knows what he did and how he did it.

Exactly. It's not Bonds or Palmeiro or Caminiti I'm worried about. It's all the guys that will never come close to getting exposed. Nothing's really going to change the fact that the whole era is effectively tainted.

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But if Mitchell's book report shows that Giambi, Bonds, Sheffield, our your left nut used beyond reasonable doubt, then they should be disciplined accordingly.

Yes, but a) that's probably not likely to happen, and b) having one or three guys scapegoated in such a manner isn't going to help much. Also, what if you "prove" that, say, Sheffield used while with the Braves. Do you suspend him for 50 games right now, hurting the Yankees, his current team? That doesn't seem fair. (not that I give a fuck about the Yankees, or Sheffield).

[astro pete]

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Exactly. It's not Bonds or Palmeiro or Caminiti I'm worried about. It's all the guys that will never come close to getting exposed. Nothing's really going to change the fact that the whole era is effectively tainted.

Isn't this true of every crime?  For instance, lots of people sell drugs, while very few are prosecuted.  What's wrong with going after the guy importing 400 pounds of cocaine, and not the kid in your dorm with an eight ball in his sock drawer?

[Reuben]

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Exactly. It's not Bonds or Palmeiro or Caminiti I'm worried about. It's all the guys that will never come close to getting exposed. Nothing's really going to change the fact that the whole era is effectively tainted.

Isn't this true of every crime?  For instance, lots of people sell drugs, while very few are prosecuted.  What's wrong with going after the guy importing 400 pounds of cocaine, and not the kid in your dorm with an eight ball in his sock drawer?

Nothing- I'm just saying don't stop at Bonds, when there might be other guys, nearly as high-profile, who used even more. Guys like Ivan Rodriguez or Bret Boone, even guys currently unsuspected like Robby Alomar or Barry Larkin (one of my favorite players), whoever, should be checked out. I don't care as much about the Randy Velardes, i.e. kids with the 8-ball in the sock drawer, but I want to know about those second-tier guys, especially the ones who might be Hall of Famers. And for any past use uncovered, I care more about it being made public than about them being suspended. But absolutely do not change any stats or records.

[astro pete]

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Nothing- I'm just saying don't stop at Bonds, when there might be other guys, nearly as high-profile, who used even more. Guys like Ivan Rodriguez or Bret Boone, even guys currently unsuspected like Robby Alomar or Barry Larkin (one of my favorite players), whoever, should be checked out. I don't care as much about the Randy Velardes, i.e. kids with the 8-ball in the sock drawer, but I want to know about those second-tier guys, especially the ones who might be Hall of Famers. And for any past use uncovered, I care more about it being made public than about them being suspended. But absolutely do not change any stats or records.

Anyone who took them is susceptible to punishment, but I think Barry Bonds' use of steroids is more important than anyone else's, if you buy the "integrity of the game" argument (which I do).  I think the last thing MLB wants is for the all-time home run record to become the next single season home run record: a sham.

[Reuben]

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Anyone who took them is susceptible to punishment, but I think Barry Bonds' use of steroids is more important than anyone else's, if you buy the "integrity of the game" argument (which I do).  I think the last thing MLB wants is for the all-time home run record to become the next single season home run record: a sham.

Right, because that would put us all in the awkward position of having to cheer for A-Rod in a few years.

I am certainly hoping that if Bonds is close to Aaron at the end of this year, he will have some kind of Darth Vader moment and realize how completely wrong it would be for a juicer to pass Hammerin' Hank. Hopefully Aaron will end up being even more appreciated in the course of all this.

[Limey]

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Isn't this true of every crime?  For instance, lots of people sell drugs, while very few are prosecuted.  What's wrong with going after the guy importing 400 pounds of cocaine, and not the kid in your dorm with an eight ball in his sock drawer?

This is why the US has a much larger proportion of its population incarcerated at any one time.  They put away drug users and small-time re-sellers but never get to grips with the big boys.  Either de-criminalise it (and thus be more able to regulate and tax it) or get serious about it and go after the banks/businesses that launder the money.  If you isolate the money, the cycle gets broken.

[pravata]

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Anyone who took them is susceptible to punishment, but I think Barry Bonds' use of steroids is more important than anyone else's, if you buy the "integrity of the game" argument (which I do).  I think the last thing MLB wants is for the all-time home run record to become the next single season home run record: a sham.

Right, because that would put us all in the awkward position of having to cheer for A-Rod in a few years.

I am certainly hoping that if Bonds is close to Aaron at the end of this year, he will have some kind of Darth Vader moment and realize how completely wrong it would be for a juicer to pass Hammerin' Hank. Hopefully Aaron will end up being even more appreciated in the course of all this.

The kind of idiot who roots for Bonds The Link

You dont even have to read the article.  The picture is sufficient.

[pravata]

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Isn't this true of every crime?  For instance, lots of people sell drugs, while very few are prosecuted.  What's wrong with going after the guy importing 400 pounds of cocaine, and not the kid in your dorm with an eight ball in his sock drawer?

This is why the US has a much larger proportion of its population incarcerated at any one time.  They put away drug users and small-time re-sellers but never get to grips with the big boys.  Either de-criminalise it (and thus be more able to regulate and tax it) or get serious about it and go after the banks/businesses that launder the money.  If you isolate the money, the cycle gets broken.

You've simultaneously solved the US drug problem, the immigration issue, and MLB's steroid problems.

[Limey]

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You've simultaneously solved the US drug problem, the immigration issue, and MLB's steroid problems.

Money is the root of all evil.  The solution is to eliminate all pockets.  Nary a pocket on a Star Fleet uniform, and they're nothing but nice to everyone.

[Rebel Jew]

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Anyone who took them is susceptible to punishment, but I think Barry Bonds' use of steroids is more important than anyone else's, if you buy the "integrity of the game" argument (which I do).  I think the last thing MLB wants is for the all-time home run record to become the next single season home run record: a sham.

Right, because that would put us all in the awkward position of having to cheer for A-Rod in a few years.

I am certainly hoping that if Bonds is close to Aaron at the end of this year, he will have some kind of Darth Vader moment and realize how completely wrong it would be for a juicer to pass Hammerin' Hank. Hopefully Aaron will end up being even more appreciated in the course of all this.

The kind of idiot who roots for Bonds The Link

You dont even have to read the article.  The picture is sufficient.

"Stu Woo '08 also roots for the Yankees in his spare time."