What was Mitre throwing last night?

[astro pete]

What pitch was Mitre throwing with the downward action that had our guys swinging at pitches in the dirt?  Sinker?  12-6 slider?  I couldn't tell.

On a somewhat related topic, I sort of missed Ashby last night.  I didn't think I would.  As an mlbtv subscriber, for some reason I'm getting the Astros radio broadcast with the Astros video.  Milo is, well, Milo.  But neither of the new guys give any sort of analysis whatsoever.  I think they have nice voices and do a good job of describing the action, but not once did they indicate why Mitre was so successful.  Why did we hire two play-by-play guys?

[JimR]

a baseball

[astro pete]

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a baseball

Go bill some hours.

[davek]

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 12-6 slider?  

What in the world would be your definition of a "12-6 slider"?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[astro pete]

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What in the world would be your definition of a "12-6 slider"?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Ever watch Brad Lidge pitch?

[lc_db]

But the term "12-6" is used more to describe one's curve.  (or that's been my experience anyway)

[HudsonHawk]

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What in the world would be your definition of a "12-6 slider"?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Ever watch Brad Lidge pitch?

Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

[astro pete]

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But the term "12-6" is used more to describe one's curve.  (or that's been my experience anyway)

So?

[astro pete]

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Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

Then what do you call a slider that breaks straight down?

[davek]

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What in the world would be your definition of a "12-6 slider"?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Ever watch Brad Lidge pitch?

Yeah sure... You gonna answer the question now?..

[astro pete]

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Yeah sure... You gonna answer the question now?..

You gonna keep being obtuse?

[HudsonHawk]

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Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

Then what do you call a slider that breaks straight down?

A slider doesn't break straight down.

[MRaup]

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Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

Then what do you call a slider that breaks straight down?

Nasty.

[astro pete]

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A slider doesn't break straight down.

A slider breaks at varying degrees depending on who's throwing it.  Brad Lidge's slider breaks more up and down than, say, Mike Williams'.  A 9-3 pitch doesn't break exactly from left to right, but I didn't realize we had to break out our protractors for this thread.

[davek]

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Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

Then what do you call a slider that breaks straight down?

"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

[JimR]

no way that kid learns anything. he knows it all already.

[astro pete]

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"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

Who deluded you into thinking you had the corner on the curveball terminology market?

[HudsonHawk]

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A slider doesn't break straight down.

A slider breaks at varying degrees depending on who's throwing it.  Brad Lidge's slider breaks more up and down than, say, Mike Williams'.  A 9-3 pitch doesn't break exactly from left to right, but I didn't realize we had to break out our protractors for this thread.

We don't have to break out the protractor.  You're the one who brought up a "12-6 slider".  They don't exist.  You keep insisting that Brad Lidge throws one, but he doesn't.  I'm not sure what your agenda is here.

[Limey]

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"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

Where's Scooter when you need him?

[MRaup]

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"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

Where's Scooter when you need him?

Didn't he commit suicide? Or maybe he let Al Leiter demonstrate a pitch by throwing him.
Odds are, if that happened, he hasn't landed yet.

[Astroholic]

Thanks for reminding me how much I miss Fox baseball.

[davek]

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"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

Who deluded you into thinking you had the corner on the curveball terminology market?

Deluded?...

Hey junior, I'm not the one trying to rename a curveball a "slider"...

And then argue the point with all comers...

While we're at it, you got any new names for a home run?..

[Limey]

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Didn't he commit suicide? Or maybe he let Al Leiter demonstrate a pitch by throwing him.
Odds are, if that happened, he hasn't landed yet.

Maybe Andy was using him last night.

"My name's Scooter!  A curve ball is a ball that cu..." BLAMMO!

[jaklewein]

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Yes.  And he sure as heck doesn't throw a 12-6 slider.

Then what do you call a slider that breaks straight down?

"Uncle Charley", "The Yellow Hammer", "Yacker" or "Nose to Toes" would all do...

Of course, the more curmudgeonly among us might refer to it as "The Drop"...

Stick around kid, you might learn something...

I once heard "Snap Dragon" used.

[astro pete]

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We don't have to break out the protractor.  You're the one who brought up a "12-6 slider".  They don't exist.  You keep insisting that Brad Lidge throws one, but he doesn't.  I'm not sure what your agenda is here.

My "agenda" began and ended with trying to ascertain what pitch Mitre was throwing last night.  It was a fairly innocuous question.  I used the term "12-6" because I've often heard it when describing an up-and-down breaking slider.

[Tralfaz]

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Thanks for reminding me how much I miss Fox baseball.

Thanks for reminding ME of how much I miss bee costumes.

[HudsonHawk]

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I used the term "12-6" because I've often heard it when describing an up-and-down breaking slider.

No you haven't.  At least not by anyone who knows shit from shinola.  A slider, by definition, breaks horizontally as well as vertical.  Brad Lidge does not throw a 12-6 pitch of any kind, and his slider sure as shit does not break 12-6.  

As for your agenda, Mitre threw a slider last night, but it certainly didn't break 12-6 either.  He wasn't particularly impressive to me, it was more of the Astros swinging the bat like shit.

[astro pete]

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No you haven't.  At least not by anyone who knows shit from shinola.  A slider, by definition, breaks horizontally as well as vertical.  Brad Lidge does not throw a 12-6 pitch of any kind, and his slider sure as shit does not break 12-6.  

Go watch the pitch he struck out Miguel Cabrera with last Monday.

[HudsonHawk]

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Go watch the pitch he struck out Miguel Cabrera with last Monday.

And that will validate your claim that a slider breaks 12-6?  I've seen it.  It didnt' break 12-6.  But if it makes you feel better to think it did, knock yourself out.  

I think we found your real agenda here, which is to try to demonstrate that no one here knows anything about pitching.  Go pick that fight with someone else, I'm tired of trying to educate you.

[JimR]

ah, the petey method: rush in to defend a totally stupid position.

[davek]

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 I'm tired of trying to educate you.

Where's your committment to your fellow man(boy)?...

Don't you want to give something back to the community?...

An entire generation is in danger of going to waste because you can't be bothered....

[astro pete]

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And that will validate your claim that a slider breaks 12-6?  I've seen it.  It didnt' break 12-6.  But if it makes you feel better to think it did, knock yourself out.  

You haven't seen it then.

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I think we found your real agenda here, which is to try to demonstrate that no one here knows anything about pitching.  

Right.  Nobody in the universe knows anything about pitching except for me.  You figured me out.

[davek]

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Maybe Andy was using him last night.

 

You don't EVEN want to know what Andy was using last night...

[JimR]

12-6 is a curveball, and it always has been a curveball. another term for it is "nose to toes."

not a slider, never a slider, will not be a slider.

[Limey]

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Right.  Nobody in the universe knows anything about pitching except for me.  You figured me out.

You know what you know, and you know what you don't know.  The problem with you is the things you don't know that you don't know.

[astro pete]

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Right.  Nobody in the universe knows anything about pitching except for me.  You figured me out.

You know what you know, and you know what you don't know.  The problem with you is the things you don't know that you don't know.

You mean the things I don't know that I don't know that I don't know?  Nah.  I know everything, apparently.

[lc_db]

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Right.  Nobody in the universe knows anything about pitching except for me.  You figured me out.

You know what you know, and you know what you don't know.  The problem with you is the things you don't know that you don't know.

-heh....  I knew that.

[EasTexAstro]

SInce the thread turned into name calling...in a way.

I only got to hear one inning of the game last night. Milo used "bread and butter...cutter" twice in the 10 minutes talking about Andy's pitch.

He didn't keep that up all night did he?

Once...almost amusing. Every few pitches? Ouch.

[astro pete]

No such thing as a bread and butter cutter.

Edit: and yes, he did.  He also juxtaposed the words "Yvette" and "horny," which I thought was nice is a disgusting sort of way.

[EasTexAstro]

I am quite thankful I got busy and din't hear the word "horny" come out of his mouth.

[HudsonHawk]

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You haven't seen it then.

I saw it, but unlike you, I knew what I was looking at.

[Limey]

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I only got to hear one inning of the game last night. Milo used "bread and butter...cutter" twice in the 10 minutes talking about Andy's pitch.

Maybe he spent the offseason coming up with that one, instead of...say...researching Bagwell's accomplishments so that he doesn't get it completely wrong* when he introduces him on Opening Day.

* He described him as the 1992 Rookie of the year, and as being one vote shy of the 1994 MVP.  WTF?  I believe he had notes in front of him.

[astro pete]

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I saw it, but unlike you, I knew what I was looking at.

Pretty amazing vision you have, considering where you were sitting.

[pravata]

"Everything felt good," said Mitre, "... The change-up was good. Everything was decent. I worked the fastball more than anything, trying to hit my spots."
The Link

[homer]

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"Everything felt good," said Mitre, "... The change-up was good. Everything was decent. I worked the fastball more than anything, trying to hit my spots."
The Link

12-6 changeup. Excellent.

[davek]

Or the ol' 12-6 fastball... Can't forget the famous 12-6 heater...

[astro pete]

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Or the ol' 12-6 fastball... Can't forget the famous 12-6 heater...

I used 12-6 to describe the trajectory of a pitch.  Apparently I'm in the minority.  But to say or suggest that Lidge doesn't throw a slider that literally breaks straight down is just wrong.  His is very similar to Rob Nen's in that regard.

[lc_db]

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Or the ol' 12-6 fastball... Can't forget the famous 12-6 heater...

Geeeeez...  EVERYone knows a fastball is 4:30-10:45.

[lc_db]

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I only got to hear one inning of the game last night. Milo used "bread and butter...cutter" twice in the 10 minutes talking about Andy's pitch.

He didn't keep that up all night did he?

Once...almost amusing. Every few pitches? Ouch.

Plus...  I got to hear him refer to our left fielder as "Press".  (This was actually Monday)

[BudGirl]

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Or the ol' 12-6 fastball... Can't forget the famous 12-6 heater...

I used 12-6 to describe the trajectory of a pitch.  Apparently I'm in the minority.  But to say or suggest that Lidge doesn't throw a slider that literally breaks straight down is just wrong.  His is very similar to Rob Nen's in that regard.

I'm going to share something.  Normally, I don't get into pitching discussions.  On a clock going from 12 to 6 is an arc, an arc is a curve.  A curve is not a slide.

You are describing a slider as a curve.  That is the issue they are having.

[pravata]

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Or the ol' 12-6 fastball... Can't forget the famous 12-6 heater...

Geeeeez...  EVERYone knows a fastball is 4:30-10:45.

Good morning, good evening, and good night are the time zones of the fastball.

[No? in Austin]

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I used the term "12-6" because I've often heard it when describing an up-and-down breaking slider.

  "often"?

[JimR]

amazing, isn't he?

[astro pete]

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  "often"?

Yeah.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Ok, I may be throwing Pete a lifeline by introducing this statement, although I don't think I'm alone in this based on hitters failure to keep up with it, but I have the hardest time differentiating between Oswalt's curve ("often" decribed as a 12-6 CURVE) and his palm-change, which he uses infrequently if at all anymore.

[No? in Austin]

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amazing, isn't he?

Yes.  A slider, especially a Brad Lidge nasty slider, is basically a pitch that is similar in speed as a fastball that "slides" off the plate late.  The key is the late break.  To refer to a slider in the same vein as a curveball is amazing, given that a curve never has "late break" to it and of course is never at fastball speed either.  To then use a term like "12 to 6" that is commonly used to describe a curveball's attributes for a slider is equally perplexing.  That he's heard is "often" from people is scary.

[No? in Austin]

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  "often"?

Yeah.

In Boston?  

[No? in Austin]

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Ok, I may be throwing Pete a lifeline by introducing this statement, although I don't think I'm alone in this based on hitters failure to keep up with it, but I have the hardest time differentiating between Oswalt's curve ("often" decribed as a 12-6 CURVE) and his palm-change, which he uses infrequently if at all anymore.

A changeup is a speed pitch and not necessarily a breaking ball (although most good changeups will move downward a little).  By calling it a speed pitch, it is meant to say you use the same motion as a fastball, however it is like you pull a string on the pitch as it is released from your hand and the ball spins backwards to cut the speed.  The hitter is swinging at your motion (especially if you setup the pitch with a good located fastball).  In the case of Jaimer Moyer, however, he throws three different types of changeups, so he's still doing basically the same thing... changing the speed of his pitches.  A hitter thus cannot time your pitches.

Curveballs are breaking pitches.  The motion is not intended to fool a hitter, the pitch itself is.  You can throw a nice tight curveball or a looping curve, but what you want is for a pitch to move right away from a location as quickly as it got there.  For a hitter, if he swings at a curveball with one location in mind, then he'll swing right over the top of it.  That is why it is said when a good curve is hit that the hitter was able to "stay back" on the pitch and also didn't try to do too much with it.  Meaning, hit a breaking ball up the middle most of the time, but early in a count you can afford to spit on most breaking balls.

A slider is a late breaking pitch.  That is the intent of a slider.  Always has been, always will be.  Variation of a slider are evident from the slider that breaks away from a hitter or the nuevo sliders that are called "cutters" nowadays that break into the hands of a hitter.  So like a cutter, your intent is to take a bit off the fastball to make for the late break.  Newer variations of the same idea is the split-finger (once known as the forkball) and the slider that breaks downward.  However, the intent remains the same, get a late break for the pitch so it "slides" off the plate on the hitter.

[astro pete]

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amazing, isn't he?

Yes.  A slider, especially a Brad Lidge nasty slider, is basically a pitch that is similar in speed as a fastball that "slides" off the plate late.  The key is the late break.  To refer to a slider in the same vein as a curveball is amazing, given that a curve never has "late break" to it and of course is never at fastball speed either.  To then use a term like "12 to 6" that is commonly used to describe a curveball's attributes for a slider is equally perplexing.  That he's heard is "often" from people is scary.

I have said nothing about curveballs.  What I did was use an adjective most often associated with a curveball in reference to a particular type of pitch, in this instance, a Brad Lidge slider that breaks straight down.  

You know , if you don't want to use the "12-6" term to describe that type of downward action, I won't make you.

[astro pete]

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  "often"?

Yeah.

In Boston?  

You don't want to know the types of things they say up here in Boston.

[JimR]

they break in opposite directions for one thing.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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Ok, I may be throwing Pete a lifeline by introducing this statement, although I don't think I'm alone in this based on hitters failure to keep up with it, but I have the hardest time differentiating between Oswalt's curve ("often" decribed as a 12-6 CURVE) and his palm-change, which he uses infrequently if at all anymore.

A changeup is a speed pitch and not necessarily a breaking ball (although most good changeups will move downward a little).  By calling it a speed pitch, it is meant to say you use the same motion as a fastball, however it is like you pull a string on the pitch as it is released from your hand and the ball spins backwards to cut the speed.  The hitter is swinging at your motion (especially if you setup the pitch with a good located fastball).  In the case of Jaimer Moyer, however, he throws three different types of changeups, so he's still doing basically the same thing... changing the speed of his pitches.  A hitter thus cannot time your pitches.

Curveballs are breaking pitches.  The motion is not intended to fool a hitter, the pitch itself is.  You can throw a nice tight curveball or a looping curve, but what you want is for a pitch to move right away from a location as quickly as it got there.  For a hitter, if he swings at a curveball with one location in mind, then he'll swing right over the top of it.  That is why it is said when a good curve is hit that the hitter was able to "stay back" on the pitch and also didn't try to do too much with it.  Meaning, hit a breaking ball up the middle most of the time, but early in a count you can afford to spit on most breaking balls.

A slider is a late breaking pitch.  That is the intent of a slider.  Always has been, always will be.  Variation of a slider are evident from the slider that breaks away from a hitter or the nuevo sliders that are called "cutters" nowadays that break into the hands of a hitter.  So like a cutter, your intent is to take a bit off the fastball to make for the late break.  Newer variations of the same idea is the split-finger (once known as the forkball) and the slider that breaks downward.  However, the intent remains the same, get a late break for the pitch so it "slides" off the plate on the hitter.

Thanks for the breakdown.  Interesting, as when I played (admittedly not past sophmore year in HS), coaches always instructed us to make our arm motion (breaking ball vs change vs fastball) as consistant as possible so that you didn't "tip" your pitch.  What you describe seems to fit what I see in the majors, where a curve isn't effective so much for the arm action being consistant but that the movement is so nasty that the hitter has no idea how much it will break.  There is very little as beautiful as a good changeup setup by a located fastball.

The one thing that you stated which surprised me was that I have heard one announcer, I believe it's Brantley (which should be telling in and of itself), describe a pitch as a "late breaking" curve.  But, to be honest, I figured he was confusing either a tailing fastball or slider for his "late breaking" curve.  I recall this term thrown out early on in Backe's career as a starter.  Although, I've come to consider that a slider, but I could be wrong.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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they break in opposite directions for one thing.

Really?  Then I am way off... thanks for pointing that out.

[HudsonHawk]

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I saw it, but unlike you, I knew what I was looking at.

Pretty amazing vision you have, considering where you were sitting.

On my couch on a 52" screen.  It wasn't that hard to see.

[T. J.]

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I saw it, but unlike you, I knew what I was looking at.

Pretty amazing vision you have, considering where you were sitting.

On my couch on a 52" screen.  It wasn't that hard to see.

Bullshit.  Last night's game was on KNWS, which is ALWAYS hard to see.  I could've sworn Pettitte was pitching to Zach Braff ghosting through from Scrubs on NBC.

[No? in Austin]

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Thanks for the breakdown.  Interesting, as when I played (admittedly not past sophmore year in HS), coaches always instructed us to make our arm motion (breaking ball vs change vs fastball) as consistant as possible so that you didn't "tip" your pitch.

They may of been telling you that for varying reasons.  Mostly so you would have good mechanics regardless.  The grip and release on the pitches varies, your mechanics should not.  One other thing to remember in tipping your pitches is to hide the pitch as long as you possibly can.  Good mechanics will do that for you.

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What you describe seems to fit what I see in the majors, where a curve isn't effective so much for the arm action being consistant but that the movement is so nasty that the hitter has no idea how much it will break.  There is very little as beautiful as a good changeup setup by a located fastball.

Yup.

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The one thing that you stated which surprised me was that I have heard one announcer, I believe it's Brantley (which should be telling in and of itself), describe a pitch as a "late breaking" curve.

That is used sometimes to describe a tight curve.  A tight curve doesn't have a loop in it and is thrown a little harder than your normal curveball.  It is pretty close to be being a "slurve" or a combo slider/curve.  Slider usually only need to break away from a location, a curve is always breaking in motion so as to not stay in the same location.  A slurve will have later motion like a slider but react like a curve in that it breaks severely from a location to another.

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But, to be honest, I figured he was confusing either a tailing fastball or slider for his "late breaking" curve.  I recall this term thrown out early on in Backe's career as a starter.  Although, I've come to consider that a slider, but I could be wrong.

Backe throws a slider and it's a tight slider in the zone.  That is his best pitch.

[Limey]

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Geeeeez...  EVERYone knows a fastball is 4:30-10:45.

In my day, a fastball was 10 quid.

[Limey]

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Bullshit.  Last night's game was on KNWS, which is ALWAYS hard to see.  I could've sworn Pettitte was pitching to Zach Braff ghosting through from Scrubs on NBC.

Right.  The pitch was clearly a 12-to-6 something, as it broke right down Domanique's cleavage.

[Limey]

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That is used sometimes to describe a tight curve.  A tight curve doesn't have a loop in it and is thrown a little harder than your normal curveball.  It is pretty close to be being a "slurve" or a combo slider/curve.  Slider usually only need to break away from a location, a curve is always breaking in motion so as to not stay in the same location.  A slurve will have later motion like a slider but react like a curve in that it breaks severely from a location to another.

IIRC...see Miller, Wade.

[Foghorn]

Try this Pete...12-6 is a a Darryl Kile curve ball.  A Barry Zito curve ball.  A bert Byleven curve ball.  (Hopefully) a Taylor Buchholz curve--I've heard his curve is outstanding, I've never seen it.

Sliders thrown at the velocity of Lidge or JR Richard or Randy Johnson don't break strictly up and down.  they sort of dive/tile down and away.  While there is verticle movement, its the horizontal movement that really frustrates a batter.  Watch the UNit throw a slider to a right handed hitter.  Damn thing almost hits them in the ankles but the batters are swinging at it.  Why?  Because its thrown hard like a fastball.  It looks like a low fast ball over the plate but the damn thing ends up by the ankles.  Picture the movement needed for that.  Not just up and down.  Not just 12 to 6.

A slider that breaks 12-6 isn't a slider.  A slider by definitio has to have some horizontal movement.  A 12-6 slider sounds more like a hard splitter.

[MusicMan]

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Bullshit.  Last night's game was on KNWS, which is ALWAYS hard to see.  I could've sworn Pettitte was pitching to Zach Braff ghosting through from Scrubs on NBC.

Right.  The pitch was clearly a 12-to-6 something, as it broke right down Domanique's cleavage.

See, and I here I thought that DirecTV's lack of ghosting was a good thing.  Little did I know what I was missing.

[Limey]

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See, and I here I thought that DirecTV's lack of ghosting was a good thing.  Little did I know what I was missing.

Exactly.  Am I watching the baseball?  Or am I fixated on Domanique's DSLs and humongous norks?  Mrs Limey is never quite sure, and neither am I.

[astro pete]

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A slider that breaks 12-6 isn't a slider.  A slider by definitio has to have some horizontal movement.  A 12-6 slider sounds more like a hard splitter.

I think Lidge sometimes throws a slider that looks like a hard splitter.  But it's not a split-finger fastball.  I know because Lidge doesn't throw one (well, I think he threw one in Chicago last year, but that's beside the point).

The best example of the pitch I'm describing is the last pitch he threw to Miguel Cabrera on Monday.  I disagree (after repeatedly watching the replay) that it had any horizontal movement.  It's a nasty pitch, one that is different from the one Randy Johnson throws.

[homer]

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See, and I here I thought that DirecTV's lack of ghosting was a good thing.  Little did I know what I was missing.

Exactly.  Am I watching the baseball?  Or am I fixated on Domanique's DSLs and humongous norks?  Mrs Limey is never quite sure, and neither am I.

norks?

[Limey]

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norks?

From  Roger's Profanisaurus:
norks n.
Tits; knockers. Also norkers, norgs, norgers. See also nork hammock.

FYI, today's "word of the day":
rectoplasm n.
Something that comes out of your bum which is so scary it makes you shit yourself.

[Gizzmonic]

Lidge does throw a splitter...or at least, the sign operator at Minute Maid Park thinks he does.  I've also heard Lidge say that he's been working on a splitter.

PS Roy throws a splitter every now and again himself...

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A slider that breaks 12-6 isn't a slider.  A slider by definitio has to have some horizontal movement.  A 12-6 slider sounds more like a hard splitter.

I think Lidge sometimes throws a slider that looks like a hard splitter.  But it's not a split-finger fastball.  I know because Lidge doesn't throw one (well, I think he threw one in Chicago last year, but that's beside the point).

The best example of the pitch I'm describing is the last pitch he threw to Miguel Cabrera on Monday.  I disagree (after repeatedly watching the replay) that it had any horizontal movement.  It's a nasty pitch, one that is different from the one Randy Johnson throws.

[astro pete]

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Lidge does throw a splitter...or at least, the sign operator at Minute Maid Park thinks he does.  I've also heard Lidge say that he's been working on a splitter.

Well, if that pitch was a splitter then I stand corrected.

[JimR]

you stand corrected no matter what the pitch was.

[Twoniner]

 Noe' is about the only one to get the idea here.  Everyone knows that 12-6 is used to describe that version of curves.  I don't think you need to bash Pete for using it to describe a sharp downward breaking slider.  It's weird, never been used in baseball history but it's not  all innacurate really.  

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A slider that breaks 12-6 isn't a slider. A slider by definitio has to have some horizontal movement. A 12-6 slider sounds more like a hard splitter.

  Not really.  It's named a slider because usually when it's thrown it will have more sidways movement than a curve.   But we don't identify the actual pitch thrown by whether it breaks more sideways or more downward action.  I can guarantee you that when Lidge throws a slider that backs up inside to a righthander it has downward action with just about ZERO outside break.   We don't call that particular pitch a "curve" just because it went straight up and down.   He gripped it as a slider, it came out of his hand as a slider, didn't jump, and the action was very late.   The pitch happened to back up on him and had less sideways break than 90% of curveballs we see, but it was still a slider.    And when someone asks you what that "12-6 slider" pitch was last night, I think it's a pretty good, if not seldom used, description when he's asking if it was a tight downward slider or a split.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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  And when someone asks you what that "12-6 slider" pitch was last night, I think it's a pretty good, if not seldom used, description when he's asking if it was a tight downward slider or a split.

If someone wants to know if it was a tight downward slider, then they should ask; "was it a tight downward slider?" I'm never sure if it's insecurity or pomposity that would motivate one to cloud their take with easily misconstrued ambigious jargon, but, either way, it seems like a dumb way to make a point.

[astro pete]

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If someone wants to know if it was a tight downward slider, then they should ask; "was it a tight downward slider?" I'm never sure if it's insecurity or pomposity that would motivate one to cloud their take with easily misconstrued ambigious jargon, but, either way, it seems like a dumb way to make a point.

Easily misconstrued?  Insecurity or pomposity?  This is ridiculous.

[davek]

This is Pete's brother...

Right?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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If someone wants to know if it was a tight downward slider, then they should ask; "was it a tight downward slider?" I'm never sure if it's insecurity or pomposity that would motivate one to cloud their take with easily misconstrued ambigious jargon, but, either way, it seems like a dumb way to make a point.

Easily misconstrued?  Insecurity or pomposity?  This is ridiculous.

You're right it is ridiculous, there are many ways to be ridiculous as there are ways to take a simple question and fuck it up.

[astro pete]

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You're right it is ridiculous, there are many ways to be ridiculous as there are ways to take a simple question and fuck it up.

Here's one: ask an innocuous question in the TZ, where fighting is sex.

[MikeyBoy]

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You're right it is ridiculous, there are many ways to be ridiculous as there are ways to take a simple question and fuck it up.

Here's one: ask an innocuous question in the TZ, where fighting is sex.

Then you are one of the biggest sluts here.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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You're right it is ridiculous, there are many ways to be ridiculous as there are ways to take a simple question and fuck it up.

Here's one: ask an innocuous question in the TZ, where fighting is sex.

And you bruise easy, nut quick, come back for more.

[astro pete]

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You're right it is ridiculous, there are many ways to be ridiculous as there are ways to take a simple question and fuck it up.

Here's one: ask an innocuous question in the TZ, where fighting is sex.

Then you are one of the biggest sluts here.

And I never even slept with Lissi...

[No? in Austin]

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It's named a slider because usually when it's thrown it will have more sidways movement than a curve.   But we don't identify the actual pitch thrown by whether it breaks more sideways or more downward action.  I can guarantee you that when Lidge throws a slider that backs up inside to a righthander it has downward action with just about ZERO outside break.   We don't call that particular pitch a "curve" just because it went straight up and down.   He gripped it as a slider, it came out of his hand as a slider, didn't jump, and the action was very late.   The pitch happened to back up on him and had less sideways break than 90% of curveballs we see, but it was still a slider.

Sometimes, a pitcher will purposely throw a backup slider (meaning the pitch is headed for the outside corner and then turn back into the strikezone.  To do that, you throw the same slider with the same grip, but lower your release point a little.  Be careful throwing this type of slider, the ball will travel towards the plate like a frisbee.  If the hitter is expecting a slider from you and sees that pitch coming, it's a very FAT pitch to throw.  When they hit it, it will go a very long way.

Octavio Dotel would have problems throwing sliders because he would drop his arm angle a lot from his fastball.  Instead of staying on top of his pitch, the ball would release a spinning frisbee pitch and some of the more mammoth shots off him were from that fat pitch.  When he was able to stay on top of his slider, he was devistating.  Joe Borowski was another closer who lived and died with his slider.  When he injured his arm, he lost his release point and threw a ton of frisbee sliders.  He became very hittable and one of the worse closers in the majors almost overnight when he did that.

[NeilT]

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It's named a slider because usually when it's thrown it will have more sidways movement than a curve.   But we don't identify the actual pitch thrown by whether it breaks more sideways or more downward action.  I can guarantee you that when Lidge throws a slider that backs up inside to a righthander it has downward action with just about ZERO outside break.   We don't call that particular pitch a "curve" just because it went straight up and down.   He gripped it as a slider, it came out of his hand as a slider, didn't jump, and the action was very late.   The pitch happened to back up on him and had less sideways break than 90% of curveballs we see, but it was still a slider.

Sometimes, a pitcher will purposely throw a backup slider (meaning the pitch is headed for the outside corner and then turn back into the strikezone.  To do that, you throw the same slider with the same grip, but lower your release point a little.  Be careful throwing this type of slider, the ball will travel towards the plate like a frisbee.  If the hitter is expecting a slider from you and sees that pitch coming, it's a very FAT pitch to throw.  When they hit it, it will go a very long way.

Octavio Dotel would have problems throwing sliders because he would drop his arm angle a lot from his fastball.  Instead of staying on top of his pitch, the ball would release a spinning frisbee pitch and some of the more mammoth shots off him were from that fat pitch.  When he was able to stay on top of his slider, he was devistating.  Joe Borowski was another closer who lived and died with his slider.  When he injured his arm, he lost his release point and threw a ton of frisbee sliders.  He became very hittable and one of the worse closers in the majors almost overnight when he did that.

I dunno.  I'm old, and ignorant, and mostly blind, but a comment and some questions.  I came home last night in time to watch the last inning, and thinking about this thread it looked to me like Lidge was throwing something that came straight and fell, and the announcers were calling it a slider. It didn't go noticeably right or left, it mostly just dropped.  I thought he threw it on a couple of first pitches for strikes.  It could have been the angle, it could have been my blindness, it could have been the announcers calling something a slider that wasn't.  I dunno.

And while I'm showing my ignorance, what's the difference between a fastball that drops and a slider?  The way it's thrown?

And finally, what's the difference between a 12-6 curveball and a curveball that kinda wobbles through space heading for the batters head and then drops towards the plate?  One is straight, and the other has some sideways angle, or are they the same?

I'm always happiest when I'm ignorant.  It saves a lot of trouble and worry.  But I hate it when you guys start fighting about something I know nothing about, because then I always feel like I have to either sit here being stupid or ask a stupid question.  The problem is the stupid question always wins. Sorry.

[Arky Vaughan]

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It's named a slider because usually when it's thrown it will have more sidways movement than a curve.   But we don't identify the actual pitch thrown by whether it breaks more sideways or more downward action.  I can guarantee you that when Lidge throws a slider that backs up inside to a righthander it has downward action with just about ZERO outside break.   We don't call that particular pitch a "curve" just because it went straight up and down.   He gripped it as a slider, it came out of his hand as a slider, didn't jump, and the action was very late.   The pitch happened to back up on him and had less sideways break than 90% of curveballs we see, but it was still a slider.

Sometimes, a pitcher will purposely throw a backup slider (meaning the pitch is headed for the outside corner and then turn back into the strikezone.  To do that, you throw the same slider with the same grip, but lower your release point a little.  Be careful throwing this type of slider, the ball will travel towards the plate like a frisbee.  If the hitter is expecting a slider from you and sees that pitch coming, it's a very FAT pitch to throw.  When they hit it, it will go a very long way.

Octavio Dotel would have problems throwing sliders because he would drop his arm angle a lot from his fastball.  Instead of staying on top of his pitch, the ball would release a spinning frisbee pitch and some of the more mammoth shots off him were from that fat pitch.  When he was able to stay on top of his slider, he was devistating.  Joe Borowski was another closer who lived and died with his slider.  When he injured his arm, he lost his release point and threw a ton of frisbee sliders.  He became very hittable and one of the worse closers in the majors almost overnight when he did that.

I dunno.  I'm old, and ignorant, and mostly blind, but a comment and some questions.  I came home last night in time to watch the last inning, and thinking about this thread it looked to me like Lidge was throwing something that came straight and fell, and the announcers were calling it a slider. It didn't go noticeably right or left, it mostly just dropped.  I thought he threw it on a couple of first pitches for strikes.  It could have been the angle, it could have been my blindness, it could have been the announcers calling something a slider that wasn't.  I dunno.

And while I'm showing my ignorance, what's the difference between a fastball that drops and a slider?  The way it's thrown?

And finally, what's the difference between a 12-6 curveball and a curveball that kinda wobbles through space heading for the batters head and then drops towards the plate?  One is straight, and the other has some sideways angle, or are they the same?

I'm always happiest when I'm ignorant.  It saves a lot of trouble and worry.  But I hate it when you guys start fighting about something I know nothing about, because then I always feel like I have to either sit here being stupid or ask a stupid question.  The problem is the stupid question always wins. Sorry.

I was at the game last night and watched all the slider highlights they play when Lights Out Lidge comes into the game.  Lots of them do seem to break almost straight down, but one important thing to note is that they do not break 12-6 the way, for example, Andy Pettitte's big curveball does.

One point is, the slider is coming in like a fastball, then breaks hard and down (and often horizontally too) as it approaches the plate.  Those big curveballs seem to rise in an arc toward the plate then loop down.  Seems like the 12-6 curveball fools the hitter into thinking it's not going to land in the strike zone, so they lay off, while the slider looks like it's going to be dead center in the zone, but by the time they swing, it's in the dirt.

I got some good field box seats (Section 131, right field line, row 9) from a scalper, and had a great profile view of the mound and the plate.  Good place to watch a game while thinking about what the pitches do.

[Rebel Jew]

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I dunno.  I'm old, and ignorant, and mostly blind, but a comment and some questions.  I came home last night in time to watch the last inning, and thinking about this thread it looked to me like Lidge was throwing something that came straight and fell, and the announcers were calling it a slider. It didn't go noticeably right or left, it mostly just dropped.  I thought he threw it on a couple of first pitches for strikes.  It could have been the angle, it could have been my blindness, it could have been the announcers calling something a slider that wasn't.  I dunno.

And while I'm showing my ignorance, what's the difference between a fastball that drops and a slider?  The way it's thrown?

And finally, what's the difference between a 12-6 curveball and a curveball that kinda wobbles through space heading for the batters head and then drops towards the plate?  One is straight, and the other has some sideways angle, or are they the same?

I'm always happiest when I'm ignorant.  It saves a lot of trouble and worry.  But I hate it when you guys start fighting about something I know nothing about, because then I always feel like I have to either sit here being stupid or ask a stupid question.  The problem is the stupid question always wins. Sorry.

I was at the game last night and watched all the slider highlights they play when Lights Out Lidge comes into the game.  Lots of them do seem to break almost straight down, but one important thing to note is that they do not break 12-6 the way, for example, Andy Pettitte's big curveball does.

One point is, the slider is coming in like a fastball, then breaks hard and down (and often horizontally too) as it approaches the plate.  Those big curveballs seem to rise in an arc toward the plate then loop down.  Seems like the 12-6 curveball fools the hitter into thinking it's not going to land in the strike zone, so they lay off, while the slider looks like it's going to be dead center in the zone, but by the time they swing, it's in the dirt.

I got some good field box seats (Section 131, right field line, row 9) from a scalper, and had a great profile view of the mound and the plate.  Good place to watch a game while thinking about what the pitches do.

I have the same question as Neil.  It seemed like Lidge started off a couple of batters with what looked like a slower pitch that seemed to break more up and down into the heart of the strike zone, instead of diving away at the knees and ankles like his usual slider.  He threw it maybe three times, and it was a strike looking each time.  This may have also been the pitch that broke what's-his-name's bat on the game-ending dribbler to everett.  It's seems like a distinctly different pitch from his slider and fastball.

[Arky Vaughan]

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I have the same question as Neil.  It seemed like Lidge started off a couple of batters with what looked like a slower pitch that seemed to break more up and down into the heart of the strike zone, instead of diving away at the knees and ankles like his usual slider.  He threw it maybe three times, and it was a strike looking each time.  This may have also been the pitch that broke what's-his-name's bat on the game-ending dribbler to everett.  It's seems like a distinctly different pitch from his slider and fastball.

The board at the ballpark said, "Slider."  From the profile view from the field boxes, it looked like a slider, just a slider that broke and stayed in the strike zone.  I've seen him throw that before the last two seasons.

[NeilT]

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I have the same question as Neil.  It seemed like Lidge started off a couple of batters with what looked like a slower pitch that seemed to break more up and down into the heart of the strike zone, instead of diving away at the knees and ankles like his usual slider.  He threw it maybe three times, and it was a strike looking each time.  This may have also been the pitch that broke what's-his-name's bat on the game-ending dribbler to everett.  It's seems like a distinctly different pitch from his slider and fastball.

The board at the ballpark said, "Slider."  From the profile view from the field boxes, it looked like a slider, just a slider that broke and stayed in the strike zone.  I've seen him throw that before the last two seasons.

I think Joey's describing the same pitch I thought I saw, and both times I thought I saw it the announcer called it a slider.  I have a perfect picture of what I think a slider looks like:  It's that pitch that comes in on the outside corner just about at Biggio's knees, and that he then strikes out on when it's whips out beyond his reach.  It's fast, and low, and it ends up outside and lower.  Joey was right.  This wasn't particularly fast, it looked like it was coming down the center of the plate right about the hitter's abdomen, and then it looked like it ended up down the center of the plate at the hitter's thighs.  I kept wondering why the batter didn't just try to kill that ball, and both times they just looked while the ball angled through the heart of the strike zone.

Then the announcer would say, there's that 12-6 slider.  Just kidding, but not about the slider part.  He would say something about a slider.  I didn't really see it break up before it dropped, though, but maybe.

[No? in Austin]

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Seems like the 12-6 curveball fools the hitter into thinking it's not going to land in the strike zone, so they lay off, while the slider looks like it's going to be dead center in the zone, but by the time they swing, it's in the dirt.

That pretty much is it in a nutshell.  The break on a curve starts the minute it leaves the hand of the pitcher and continues all the way to the plate.  It never has late movement, it is moving at all times because of the grip and release on the pitch.  The slider is, however, a *late* breaking pitch, meaning it's a fastball for pretty much two-thirds of the way to the plate.  It breaks at the last minute and hence why they call it a slider... it slides off the plate or path that it's taken for pretty much the majority of the way towards the plate.  Whether is slides down or away, in or out, doesn't matter if it is a late break on the pitch.

I noticed what Lidge threw last night as well, and when he takes a little off his slider, it acts like a hard curve.  He can get those over for strikes when he needs to, but they are kinda of loopy sliders and not the nasty late breaking hard sliders he's known for.  Lidge used to throw a nasty curveball in the minors, but his arm injuries early coupled with his funky delivery pretty much made the Astros ask him to shelve ever throwing a curveball again in his career.  When you *snap* a curveball off your hands, it is literally a snap of the wrist in a downward plane.  Hence why the ball when it leaves the hand starts to break almost immediately, and hence why it can hurt a young man's arm to throw curves at young ages, like Little League.

[No? in Austin]

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I think Joey's describing the same pitch I thought I saw, and both times I thought I saw it the announcer called it a slider.  I have a perfect picture of what I think a slider looks like:  It's that pitch that comes in on the outside corner just about at Biggio's knees, and that he then strikes out on when it's whips out beyond his reach.  It's fast, and low, and it ends up outside and lower.  Joey was right.  This wasn't particularly fast, it looked like it was coming down the center of the plate right about the hitter's abdomen, and then it looked like it ended up down the center of the plate at the hitter's thighs.  I kept wondering why the batter didn't just try to kill that ball, and both times they just looked while the ball angled through the heart of the strike zone.

You can take a litte speed off your slider by basically throwing it for location rather than speed to fool a batter.  Joe Borowski, again as an example, throws the loopy slider quite often.  The net effect of taking a little speed off your slider is to get it to stay around the strikezone, yet still have late enough movement to keep the hitter from "squaring" the ball.  A ball moving late is a good thing to keep hitters from just sitting on locations.  The reason the pitch though is still a slider is the grip *and* release on the pitch is not the same as the curveball.  Even if you take a little off your slider, it is not coming off your hand like a curveball would, meaning it is not coming off your hand already breaking or tumbling.  By cutting the speed on a slider, the ball reacts earlier to it's break instead of late in a hard slider.  Because it reacts earlier and it's a bit slower, it stays in and around the strike zone.  Backup sliders, get over sliders, those are the kind that are thrown with less speed and more location in mind.  What a hitter sees coming off the hand of the pitcher though (if done correctly) is a fastball that is heading either way outside the strikezone or too high, and then the ball loops back into the zone.  If you're lucky, it loops just late enough to fool the hitter and just early enough to catch a lot of the plate.

Throw it wrong though and it spins sideways and flattens out (meaning no real mystery to it and not late movement)... and when you do that, a guy like Albert Pujols launches it.  See: Five NLCS, Game.

Throw it right (even though it has less speed, it still comes in the mid to late 80s mph... Larry Andersen was a master of that pitch) and the results is just like what Lidge got off the bat of Willingham, who must of thought he was getting a fastball middle in and the late break busted his hands and the bat.  Willingham thought he had the ball squared, but wound up hitting the ball weakly.  Former Houston Astros farmhand Kirk Saarloos throws various kinds of darting sliders (up and down and sideways) that never reach above 88 mphs.  When Saarloos is on, he's hard to square up.  Same with Huston Street, the closer for the Oakland A's.  But if both Street and Saarloos have to pitch more than five innings as starters, that same loopy, dance in the strikezone slider will start to flatten out just because of fatique and the results can get ugly really quick.

[NeilT]

That sounds exactly like what I was seeing, a loopy slider (though I don't mean loopy like an arc). The batters must've been caught standing because the pitch looked high. If the announcer had said it was a curve, and if this discussion hadn't been erupting, honestly, I'd've never thought twice. Thanks Noe.

[Taras Bulba]

I read all of this and all I know is that I'm just happy to still take a 12-6 piss every morning.

[Craig]

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I read all of this and all I know is that I'm just happy to still take a 12-6 piss every morning.

Thread over, we have a winner.

[Astroholic]

HOF