I don't get it???....

[ASTROCREEP]

Why the big anticipation for an IN-GAME throwing situation,
IF HE CAN'T THROW IN WARM-UPS HE CAN'T THROW DURING A GAME.

Talking about Bagwell ofcourse.

[Froback]

But you see it is different... you have the adreneline and the cortisone flowing, and you give it your all, because that is a game and not just practice... I mean what are we talking about???  It's just practice man!

Ooops, sorry shifted off course there I think.

[ASTROCREEP]

In other words, if he CAN make the throws in Warm-ups, the extra adrenaline from a real game situation would only help.

SO, how does he look in warm-ups? Anyone seen him?

[astro pete]

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In other words, if he CAN make the throws in Warm-ups, the extra adrenaline from a real game situation would only help.

SO, how does he look in warm-ups? Anyone seen him?

The question isn't whether or not Jeff Bagwell can throw a baseball.  He can't.  He hasn't been able to throw one for a few years.  The question is really whether or not Bagwell can get three or four at-bats a game, field his position (ie: shot put/side arm/roll/punt the ball around), and then come back and do it all again the next day.

[homer]

 

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The question isn't whether or not Jeff Bagwell can throw a baseball. He can't.

Is this true? I thought he could throw, but just not very often, not very hard and not very far... i.e., he might have one or two half ass throws a day before his arm falls off or something.

With that said, I thought the question was whether or not his half ass throws would be sufficient in a game situation. Or if he made his best effort throw in a game, would his arm explode? Or would it be damaged to the point where he couldn't throw or hit (at all) for an extended period?

[astro pete]

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Quote:
The question isn't whether or not Jeff Bagwell can throw a baseball. He can't.

Is this true? I thought he could throw, but just not very often, not very hard and not very far... i.e., he might have one or two half ass throws a day before his arm falls off or something.

With that said, I thought the question was whether or not his half ass throws would be sufficient in a game situation. Or if he made his best effort throw in a game, would his arm explode? Or would it be damaged to the point where he couldn't throw or hit (at all) for an extended period?

Well, I suppose it really depends on what your definition of the word "throw" is.

[Fredia]

either he can or cant throw.. so basically is his bat worth the missed outs at first base or first to second etc. that he would miss with the shoulder that doesnt work but they are waiting to see if somehow it doesn but only in a game situation

[Bench]

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The question isn't whether or not Jeff Bagwell can throw a baseball. He can't.

Is this true? I thought he could throw, but just not very often, not very hard and not very far... i.e., he might have one or two half ass throws a day before his arm falls off or something.

With that said, I thought the question was whether or not his half ass throws would be sufficient in a game situation. Or if he made his best effort throw in a game, would his arm explode? Or would it be damaged to the point where he couldn't throw or hit (at all) for an extended period?

The issue is will "throwing" exacerbate his shoulder so much as to preclude swinging as well.

[CJM]

I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  All of this uproar over Bagwell making a throw is crazy.  He has not been able to throw for a while now.  It wasn't a big problem in 2004 because he was still able to swing the bat well enough every day.  He's never going to make a "pretty" throw.  He's never going to be able to get much on the ball.  Ever.  Can he control the pain well enough to play every day?  I think that's what Bagwell is trying to find out, and it's going to take more spring training games before he knows.  The fact that he's been able to do this much is more than some expected.  

Sounds like there were fans under the impression Bagwell was going to be like a groundhog.  If he throws a strike to third base the Astros get one more year of Jeff Bagwell, if he doesn't they get a check from Lloyd's of London.

[Arky Vaughan]

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I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  All of this uproar over Bagwell making a throw is crazy.  He has not been able to throw for a while now.  It wasn't a big problem in 2004 because he was still able to swing the bat well enough every day.  He's never going to make a "pretty" throw.  He's never going to be able to get much on the ball.  Ever.  Can he control the pain well enough to play every day?  I think that's what Bagwell is trying to find out, and it's going to take more spring training games before he knows.  The fact that he's been able to do this much is more than some expected.  

Sounds like there were fans under the impression Bagwell was going to be like a groundhog.  If he throws a strike to third base the Astros get one more year of Jeff Bagwell, if he doesn't they get a check from Lloyd's of London.

I wonder if he's tried throwing sidearm.

[CJM]

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I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  All of this uproar over Bagwell making a throw is crazy.  He has not been able to throw for a while now.  It wasn't a big problem in 2004 because he was still able to swing the bat well enough every day.  He's never going to make a "pretty" throw.  He's never going to be able to get much on the ball.  Ever.  Can he control the pain well enough to play every day?  I think that's what Bagwell is trying to find out, and it's going to take more spring training games before he knows.  The fact that he's been able to do this much is more than some expected.  

Sounds like there were fans under the impression Bagwell was going to be like a groundhog.  If he throws a strike to third base the Astros get one more year of Jeff Bagwell, if he doesn't they get a check from Lloyd's of London.

I wonder if he's tried throwing sidearm.

Somebody needs to tell him.  What's his number?

[Ryan in Houston]

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The question isn't whether or not Jeff Bagwell can throw a baseball. He can't.

Is this true? I thought he could throw, but just not very often, not very hard and not very far... i.e., he might have one or two half ass throws a day before his arm falls off or something.

With that said, I thought the question was whether or not his half ass throws would be sufficient in a game situation. Or if he made his best effort throw in a game, would his arm explode? Or would it be damaged to the point where he couldn't throw or hit (at all) for an extended period?

The issue is will "throwing" exacerbate his shoulder so much as to preclude swinging as well.

"I can tell when I wake up how I feel. I move my arm in a throwing direction and it's either yea or nay. Today it was yeah. I was happy." - J. Bagwell, 3/12/2006

[Reuben]

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I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  All of this uproar over Bagwell making a throw is crazy.  He has not been able to throw for a while now.  It wasn't a big problem in 2004 because he was still able to swing the bat well enough every day.  He's never going to make a "pretty" throw.  He's never going to be able to get much on the ball.  Ever.  Can he control the pain well enough to play every day?  I think that's what Bagwell is trying to find out, and it's going to take more spring training games before he knows.  The fact that he's been able to do this much is more than some expected.  

Sounds like there were fans under the impression Bagwell was going to be like a groundhog.  If he throws a strike to third base the Astros get one more year of Jeff Bagwell, if he doesn't they get a check from Lloyd's of London.

Beautifully said. The fact that he hasn't had to make an overhand throw in an ST game should tell us something: first basemen don't need to throw that much. Bill James had a great essay on this comparing Buckner - who "was fanatic about insisting that pitchers (cover first)" with Garvey - who "was paranoid about making unnecessary throws" and had a weak arm. In some seasons Buckner had 120 more assists per season than Garvey, who was recognized as a far superior fielder.

I think if opposing batters were going to treat Bagwell like Jim Abbott, they'd have done it 2 or 3 years ago.

[David in Jackson]

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I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  All of this uproar over Bagwell making a throw is crazy.  He has not been able to throw for a while now.  It wasn't a big problem in 2004 because he was still able to swing the bat well enough every day.  He's never going to make a "pretty" throw.  He's never going to be able to get much on the ball.  Ever.  Can he control the pain well enough to play every day?  I think that's what Bagwell is trying to find out, and it's going to take more spring training games before he knows.  The fact that he's been able to do this much is more than some expected.  

Sounds like there were fans under the impression Bagwell was going to be like a groundhog.  If he throws a strike to third base the Astros get one more year of Jeff Bagwell, if he doesn't they get a check from Lloyd's of London.

I wonder if he's tried throwing sidearm.

or lefthanded?

[Froback]

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I think if opposing batters were going to treat Bagwell like Jim Abbott, they'd have done it 2 or 3 years ago.

Furcal started to at the end of 04, and the first series the Asros played them in 05.  Bagwell didn't play much in 05 so we really can't tell what other teams might have done (not enough games).  My guess is once teams realize what they can get away with (by people trying) they will continue to do so.  Remember Biggio in CF.  They didn't run on him a ton at first, but by the end of the year, everyone was taking advantage of his arm, which did allow him to catch guys occassionally (IIRC he had quite a few assists).

I am in the group that is looking for Bagwell to prove he can make the plays needed to play 1B still.  Fielding is a bigger part of it, but throwing is still a big deal.  And when talking about his bats production, keep in mind we need to think is his bat enough more than Taveras (the likely guy to get pushed out of the line-up) to make up for the less defensive skills over Berkman.

If the Astros and Bagwell think yes, he should be on the team, if no... He should not.

[pravata]

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I think if opposing batters were going to treat Bagwell like Jim Abbott, they'd have done it 2 or 3 years ago.

Furcal started to at the end of 04, and the first series the Asros played them in 05.  Bagwell didn't play much in 05 so we really can't tell what other teams might have done (not enough games).  My guess is once teams realize what they can get away with (by people trying) they will continue to do so.  Remember Biggio in CF.  They didn't run on him a ton at first, but by the end of the year, everyone was taking advantage of his arm, which did allow him to catch guys occassionally (IIRC he had quite a few assists).

I am in the group that is looking for Bagwell to prove he can make the plays needed to play 1B still.  Fielding is a bigger part of it, but throwing is still a big deal.  And when talking about his bats production, keep in mind we need to think is his bat enough more than Taveras (the likely guy to get pushed out of the line-up) to make up for the less defensive skills over Berkman.

If the Astros and Bagwell think yes, he should be on the team, if no... He should not.

Here's the 2 plays they are going to have to think about.  Runner on 2nd, or 3rd, less than 2 outs, groundball hit to the left side.  Also, runners 1st and 3d.  If I'm the 1st base runner, I would consider attracting a throw.

[WulawHorn]

Question Pravata-

are you saying that you are concerned with say, guys on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, grounder to SS with the infield back and throw over with having 2 guys score (i.e. the guy from second) on a put out at first?

[pravata]

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Question Pravata-

are you saying that you are concerned with say, guys on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, grounder to SS with the infield back and throw over with having 2 guys score (i.e. the guy from second) on a put out at first?

Yes, hadnt thought of that one.  But it probably isnt so bad as both would score.  But if I'm on 3rd, check me all you want, bring the infield in, as soon as the throw leaves Everett's or Ensberg's hand towards 1st, I'd go home.

[WulawHorn]

I think that you don't have to worry about the first scenario all that much, other than the fact that it makes playing the infield in early in the game a non-option.  Early in the game they aren't generally in, that would be a late game substitution situation on key runs, necessitating bagwell being yanked for a defensive replacement.  7th inning on I think you will just have to do that and replace Bags.  Obviously when you have the infield in early you open yourself up to a big inning, so although you will give up one run more often then not, maybe you avoid the 2, 3 and 4 run innings by having the infield back, losing only a little bit in run prevention.

2 guys scoring in the scenario I thought you were talking about would be deadly- ie if that ends up developing you are giving away way too many runs, and you can't defensively substitute in the 4th inning for something like that, making bagwell a huge liability as oppoesed to a minor one.  I would HOPE he could prevent scenario 2 from happening with a shot put, or getting the ball to the pitcher or 2b backing him up quickly, like when he used to flip to hidalgo occasionally.  If he can't compensate for this though, he is less than worthless imo.

[Bench]

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I think if opposing batters were going to treat Bagwell like Jim Abbott, they'd have done it 2 or 3 years ago.

Furcal started to at the end of 04, and the first series the Asros played them in 05.  Bagwell didn't play much in 05 so we really can't tell what other teams might have done (not enough games).  My guess is once teams realize what they can get away with (by people trying) they will continue to do so.  Remember Biggio in CF.  They didn't run on him a ton at first, but by the end of the year, everyone was taking advantage of his arm, which did allow him to catch guys occassionally (IIRC he had quite a few assists).

I am in the group that is looking for Bagwell to prove he can make the plays needed to play 1B still.  Fielding is a bigger part of it, but throwing is still a big deal.  And when talking about his bats production, keep in mind we need to think is his bat enough more than Taveras (the likely guy to get pushed out of the line-up) to make up for the less defensive skills over Berkman.

If the Astros and Bagwell think yes, he should be on the team, if no... He should not.

Here's the 2 plays they are going to have to think about.  Runner on 2nd, or 3rd, less than 2 outs, groundball hit to the left side.  Also, runners 1st and 3d.  If I'm the 1st base runner, I would consider attracting a throw.

The runners on first and third scenario is the scariest. Also, I can see someone with above average speed going from first to third on a bunt.

[Froback]

I think any situation where there is a runner at 1st less than 2 outs(and no runner on 2B), ground ball hit anywhere, where there is not going to be a play at 2B, so they throw to 1B for the out, but the guy who started at 1B runs all the way to 3B because Bagwell cannot make the return throw.

This is exactly what Furcal did in a game (twice I think).  Ball grounded to Ensberg, who threw a bullet to 1B, and Bagwell couldn't get the return throw back to him before Furcal made it all the way to 3B, safely.

[Bench]

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I think any situation where there is a runner at 1st less than 2 outs(and no runner on 2B), ground ball hit anywhere, where there is not going to be a play at 2B, so they throw to 1B for the out, but the guy who started at 1B runs all the way to 3B because Bagwell cannot make the return throw.

This is exactly what Furcal did in a game (twice I think).  Ball grounded to Ensberg, who threw a bullet to 1B, and Bagwell couldn't get the return throw back to him before Furcal made it all the way to 3B, safely.

I wonder if the pitchers in ST are practicing a first to third relay drill. Balls hit, hustle over towards first base, take the underhand toss from Bags and fire it across the diamond. Kind of like the Bagwell/Hidalgo relay combo for pop ups to shallow right.

[Froback]

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I think any situation where there is a runner at 1st less than 2 outs(and no runner on 2B), ground ball hit anywhere, where there is not going to be a play at 2B, so they throw to 1B for the out, but the guy who started at 1B runs all the way to 3B because Bagwell cannot make the return throw.

This is exactly what Furcal did in a game (twice I think).  Ball grounded to Ensberg, who threw a bullet to 1B, and Bagwell couldn't get the return throw back to him before Furcal made it all the way to 3B, safely.

I wonder if the pitchers in ST are practicing a first to third relay drill. Balls hit, hustle over towards first base, take the underhand toss from Bags and fire it across the diamond. Kind of like the Bagwell/Hidalgo relay combo for pop ups to shallow right.

I am sure we would have heard of that by now, given all the coverage on Bagwell, don't you?

[Bench]

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I think any situation where there is a runner at 1st less than 2 outs(and no runner on 2B), ground ball hit anywhere, where there is not going to be a play at 2B, so they throw to 1B for the out, but the guy who started at 1B runs all the way to 3B because Bagwell cannot make the return throw.

This is exactly what Furcal did in a game (twice I think).  Ball grounded to Ensberg, who threw a bullet to 1B, and Bagwell couldn't get the return throw back to him before Furcal made it all the way to 3B, safely.

I wonder if the pitchers in ST are practicing a first to third relay drill. Balls hit, hustle over towards first base, take the underhand toss from Bags and fire it across the diamond. Kind of like the Bagwell/Hidalgo relay combo for pop ups to shallow right.

I am sure we would have heard of that by now, given all the coverage on Bagwell, don't you?

Obviously. That was tongue in cheek, but it's even funnier if you picture them practicing it clandestinely inside at night so they don't tip anyone off.