Best Outfield Arm?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Who in the organization is considered to have the best outfield arm? I was told Jimerson from a guy at work who saw him in Round Rock 2 years ago. But I don't really trust the guy's judgement. Or, I guess there are some opinions on here I would trust more.

[jaklewein]

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Who in the organization is considered to have the best outfield arm? I was told Jimerson from a guy at work who saw him in Round Rock 2 years ago. But I don't really trust the guy's judgement. Or, I guess there are some opinions on here I would trust more.

Jimerson's got to be up there from what I've heard.  Taveras has got to be up there near the top of the list if not in the top spot.

[VirtualBob]

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Who in the organization is considered to have the best outfield arm? I was told Jimerson from a guy at work who saw him in Round Rock 2 years ago. But I don't really trust the guy's judgement. Or, I guess there are some opinions on here I would trust more.

Jimerson's got to be up there from what I've heard.  Taveras has got to be up there near the top of the list if not in the top spot.

Having watched them both together, I'd have to say Taveras.  Jimerson made some great throws to third from RF, and he certainlt has a plus arm, but Taveras seemed to be both strong and accurate *every* time.

[VirtualBob]

Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

[jaklewein]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

Yes, I'd say Greg D agrees with you (See his ST Notes in Minor Opinions).  Off the top of my head, I'm with you too.  That said, I thought a little more in depth abotu it and thought that Jimerson would offer a right-handed, power bat off the bench, something that this team's been missing for the quite some time now.  From what I've heard, he's got a plus glove and speed, meaning he could fill in as a defensive replacement or as a pinch runner if needed late in the game.  I also think that the Astros might pick Jimerson over Taveras when looking for a player to fill such a role as they'd rather see Willy playing everyday (AAA if need be).

So I'm guessing it's actually Scott vs. Jimerson (if they can even find a spot for another OF on the roster).  Sure, Scott would be the logical choice if you pitted player vs. player, but given the role that will be needed, I'm thinking the team might actually be watching Jimerson closely.

Sorry, didn't read your post very closely.  Missed your note regarding Greg D.

[No? in Austin]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

If Jeff Bagwell is the starting first baseman, then Taveras is going to Round Rock to play every day.  They don't want him to sit on the bench and play sporatically.

As to Jimerson vs. Scott, consider this:

Bench:

Burke (RH)
Bruntlett (RH)
Lamb (LH)
Palmerio (LH)
Chavez or Quintero (RH)

So of those guys, who is the right handed power hitting bench player?  Used to be that Jason Lane was that player, but last year he won his starting job.  The Astros didn't have a power hitting right handed bat and they were a little bit weak because of it.  At least in terms of having a guy they could call on to possibly provide some punch like Lamb can on the left side when needed.

Since Scott hits left handed, I'm think Jimerson does have a shot at the job of a right handed power bat off the bench, and also a defensive replacement late in the game as well as a base stealer.  Those are three plus items he can provide.  As a starter, he's lacking, but as a bench guy, he has the tools to hit a baseball a very long way and perhaps a change of approach to an aggressive (he's already a bit aggressive any way with his approach) pinch hitter role to go with speed and defense might be just the fit for the Astros.

[Greg D]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

If Jeff Bagwell is the starting first baseman, then Taveras is going to Round Rock to play every day.  They don't want him to sit on the bench and play sporatically.

As to Jimerson vs. Scott, consider this:

Bench:

Burke (RH)
Bruntlett (RH)
Lamb (LH)
Palmerio (LH)
Chavez or Quintero (RH)

So of those guys, who is the right handed power hitting bench player?  Used to be that Jason Lane was that player, but last year he won his starting job.  The Astros didn't have a power hitting right handed bat and they were a little bit weak because of it.  At least in terms of having a guy they could call on to possibly provide some punch like Lamb can on the left side when needed.

Since Scott hits left handed, I'm think Jimerson does have a shot at the job of a right handed power bat off the bench, and also a defensive replacement late in the game as well as a base stealer.  Those are three plus items he can provide.  As a starter, he's lacking, but as a bench guy, he has the tools to hit a baseball a very long way and perhaps a change of approach to an aggressive (he's already a bit aggressive any way with his approach) pinch hitter role to go with speed and defense might be just the fit for the Astros.

So in a late inning pressure-filled PH situation, rather than bringing a veteran to the plate who would normally fill such a role, you want a rookie instead? And a rookie who's had problems consistently putting bat on ball at AA, much less against major league pitching? Who has a grand total of 23 ABs at AAA and not even one official AB in the big leagues? (BTW, how many position players in the Astros system, other than Taveras who now faces the possibility of going back to the minors, have made the leap essentially from AA to the big leagues over the last 10 years?)

I'm thinking Mr. Waiver Wire Guy gets the job instead.

Now if they're looking for Jimerson to fill the Glen Barker role (pinch-running, late inning D) and little else, then perhaps he does have a chance to make the squad. But to expect him to provide right-handed pop off the bench, that seems like a pipe dream at this stage of his career.

[Greg D]

BTW, do you think the club opens the year with 11 or 12 pitchers? If the latter (which I would think would be the more likely scenario), then this whole discussion becomes moot anyway as there wouldn't be room for either Jimerson or Scott (or Willy T) on the roster.

[mihoba]

Would they possibly semi-platoon Bagwell and Lane? I have a difficult time seeing Wilson as the starting centerfielder for the entire season. I agree Willy needs to play, just not in RR. If Wilson could switch between RF, CF, LF, the semi-platoon could work, by using Berkman as a LF-1B full time. Lane and Bags might lose 100 AB's for the season in that case.

If the Astros want to send Willy to RR to work on switch hitting... now I could understand that.

[Duke]

Jimerson's got to be up there from what I've heard.  Taveras has got to be up there near the top of the list if not in the top spot.



Having watched them both together, I'd have to say Taveras.  Jimerson made some great throws to third from RF, and he certainlt has a plus arm, but Taveras seemed to be both strong and accurate *every* time.



Watched Taveras make 3 throws last night to get runners at the plate from shallow center.  One up the 1st  base side...safe.  One up the 3rd base side....safe.  One right on the money and catcher drops it....safe.  All strong throws, needs to work on accuracy this spring.

[Jacksonian]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

Good Lord that article is crap.  It reads as if the Jimerson idea is his own and not taken from anyone inside the Astros org.  What a waste of time reading.

[Jacksonian]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

If Jeff Bagwell is the starting first baseman, then Taveras is going to Round Rock to play every day.  They don't want him to sit on the bench and play sporatically.

As to Jimerson vs. Scott, consider this:

Bench:

Burke (RH)
Bruntlett (RH)
Lamb (LH)
Palmerio (LH)
Chavez or Quintero (RH)

So of those guys, who is the right handed power hitting bench player?  Used to be that Jason Lane was that player, but last year he won his starting job.  The Astros didn't have a power hitting right handed bat and they were a little bit weak because of it.  At least in terms of having a guy they could call on to possibly provide some punch like Lamb can on the left side when needed.

Since Scott hits left handed, I'm think Jimerson does have a shot at the job of a right handed power bat off the bench, and also a defensive replacement late in the game as well as a base stealer.  Those are three plus items he can provide.  As a starter, he's lacking, but as a bench guy, he has the tools to hit a baseball a very long way and perhaps a change of approach to an aggressive (he's already a bit aggressive any way with his approach) pinch hitter role to go with speed and defense might be just the fit for the Astros.

I'm surprised you took the time to write this out.  You know as well as anyone the trouble Jimerson has recognizing pitches.  It doesn't appear he's turned the corner, nor does it appear he'll ever do so.  He could be a power off the bench guy.  But, that notion is predicated on him making contact at all.  If he gets at bats in any meaningful situation in mlb, he'll get a steady diet of off-speed pitches and fastballs off the plate from the better relievers in the game, except Wagner of course.  Which, in Jimerson's case, means whiff-city.  I just can't imagine the Astros including him as the 5th outfielder unless he were used as a ninth inning defensive replacement guy and only got at-bats in blowouts and when no other option was available.  In any case, it doesn't appear there's any room on the 25-man for him anyway.  Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

[astro pete]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

[pravata]

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Did anyone else (besides Greg) see the comment that "Charlton Jimerson has worked himself into contention for a possible spot as a backup outfielder with the Major League club"???

I put him at least 8th on the depth chart, and 8 K's in 21 ST AB's doesn't seem to be making much of a (positive) statement.  It looks to me like Scott/Taveras/Jimerson in RR to open the season, with Taveras & Scott both being ahead of Jimerson for major league duty.

If Jeff Bagwell is the starting first baseman, then Taveras is going to Round Rock to play every day.  They don't want him to sit on the bench and play sporatically.

As to Jimerson vs. Scott, consider this:

Bench:

Burke (RH)
Bruntlett (RH)
Lamb (LH)
Palmerio (LH)
Chavez or Quintero (RH)

So of those guys, who is the right handed power hitting bench player?  Used to be that Jason Lane was that player, but last year he won his starting job.  The Astros didn't have a power hitting right handed bat and they were a little bit weak because of it.  At least in terms of having a guy they could call on to possibly provide some punch like Lamb can on the left side when needed.

Since Scott hits left handed, I'm think Jimerson does have a shot at the job of a right handed power bat off the bench, and also a defensive replacement late in the game as well as a base stealer.  Those are three plus items he can provide.  As a starter, he's lacking, but as a bench guy, he has the tools to hit a baseball a very long way and perhaps a change of approach to an aggressive (he's already a bit aggressive any way with his approach) pinch hitter role to go with speed and defense might be just the fit for the Astros.

I'm surprised you took the time to write this out.  You know as well as anyone the trouble Jimerson has recognizing pitches.  It doesn't appear he's turned the corner, nor does it appear he'll ever do so.  He could be a power off the bench guy.  But, that notion is predicated on him making contact at all.  If he gets at bats in any meaningful situation in mlb, he'll get a steady diet of off-speed pitches and fastballs off the plate from the better relievers in the game, except Wagner of course.  Which, in Jimerson's case, means whiff-city.  I just can't imagine the Astros including him as the 5th outfielder unless he were used as a ninth inning defensive replacement guy and only got at-bats in blowouts and when no other option was available.  In any case, it doesn't appear there's any room on the 25-man for him anyway.  Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

There's also this organizational strategy that might put pressure on him see The Link

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

Do you mind if I use that quote as my signature?  That statement is simply too overwhelmingly stupid to pass up.

[Reuben]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

Do you mind if I use that quote as my signature?  That statement is simply too overwhelmingly stupid to pass up.

Is Footer out/no more or just on vacation? Sad that Chron coverage is so poor that out-of-staters like myself actually need mlb.com as a resource sometimes.

[Jacksonian]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

Do you mind if I use that quote as my signature?  That statement is simply too overwhelmingly stupid to pass up.

Is Footer out/no more or just on vacation? Sad that Chron coverage is so poor that out-of-staters like myself actually need mlb.com as a resource sometimes.

She wrote an article that was published Saturday evening.  The Link

[pravata]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

Do you mind if I use that quote as my signature?  That statement is simply too overwhelmingly stupid to pass up.

Is Footer out/no more or just on vacation? Sad that Chron coverage is so poor that out-of-staters like myself actually need mlb.com as a resource sometimes.

She wrote an article that was published Saturday evening.  The Link

She's been covering the WBC, MLB orders, so hasn't been with the Astros much so far.

[Kent's Moustache]

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Purpura said they want the hitters in the organization to improve their on-base percentage, which means see more pitches, work the count better and take walks, among other things.

"Simply put, though, we have to hit better situationally," he said. "We have to produce more runs."

...which makes the decision to DFA a high-OBP, high-BBs, high pitches/AB hitter like Todd Self all the more bewildering...

[astro pete]

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Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

"Bogusevic, a left-handed pitcher, is working on some mechanical things that'll help him with his pitchability."

Do you mind if I use that quote as my signature?  That statement is simply too overwhelmingly stupid to pass up.

Go ahead.  It should certainly be preserved.

[Jacksonian]

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Purpura said they want the hitters in the organization to improve their on-base percentage, which means see more pitches, work the count better and take walks, among other things.

"Simply put, though, we have to hit better situationally," he said. "We have to produce more runs."

...which makes the decision to DFA a high-OBP, high-BBs, high pitches/AB hitter like Todd Self all the more bewildering...

Self was let go before that decision was made.  But, he'd be exactly the kind of guy who'd fit the bill.  I saw him as the anti-Jimerson.

[No? in Austin]

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I'm surprised you took the time to write this out.

Obviously I have a higher (but not by much) opinion of Jimerson's value.

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You know as well as anyone the trouble Jimerson has recognizing pitches.  It doesn't appear he's turned the corner, nor does it appear he'll ever do so.  He could be a power off the bench guy.  But, that notion is predicated on him making contact at all.  If he gets at bats in any meaningful situation in mlb, he'll get a steady diet of off-speed pitches and fastballs off the plate from the better relievers in the game, except Wagner of course.

Wait a minute, it's just the opposite.  A manager like Phil Garner will know when and how to use a hitter like Jimerson and his aggressive approach.  Jimerson is aggressive and when he makes contact, the ball travels a very long way.  A reliever who comes into game with inherited runners and trying to hold a lead has little time to fool around with corners and throw off-speed pitches.  Usually those relievers brought into those situations are the type that challenge hitters.  And that is when a smart manager would use a Jimerson (or a Lamb).  Daryle Ward used to be a pinch hitter for Larry Dierker and Dierk would reserve using Ward for late inning situations when he needed a power bat.  Ward would go up to the plate and take pitches right down the freaking middle of the plate.  The count wouldn't favor Ward in most of those situations and then he would get himself out by actually not swinging at pitches and doing what came naturally to him *as a starter* in the minors, working counts.

It wasn't until veteran reserve pinch hitter Stan Javier got to Ward and told him to be aggressive and look to hit the first pitch because that is usually the situation a reliever is trying to do when in a jam, get over with a first pitch strike.   So if I were advocating Garner using Jimerson as a start a rally type of pinch hitter late in a game, then I'd agree that there are much better options.  But that is what guys like Palmerio and Burke are on the team to do from the bench.

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Which, in Jimerson's case, means whiff-city.

But for a pinch hitter late in the game with power, that is what you want, not someone who will look at a pitch that a reliever will try to get away with.  But if you want to talk about guys like Lidge, Gagne or other top of the line closer types, trust me, it is hard for *anyone* to hit them, patient or not.  Better to come back to the bench as a pinch hitter swinging the stick than having it resting on your shoulders with men on the bases that need to score.

Much better to whiff.

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I just can't imagine the Astros including him as the 5th outfielder unless he were used as a ninth inning defensive replacement guy and only got at-bats in blowouts and when no other option was available.  In any case, it doesn't appear there's any room on the 25-man for him anyway.  Also, Justice B. Hill has so far been a terrible writer.

Cool.

[VirtualBob]

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Purpura said they want the hitters in the organization to improve their on-base percentage, which means see more pitches, work the count better and take walks, among other things.

"Simply put, though, we have to hit better situationally," he said. "We have to produce more runs."

...which makes the decision to DFA a high-OBP, high-BBs, high pitches/AB hitter like Todd Self all the more bewildering...

That was a numbers-game gamble that (depending, of course on future developments) lost.

[No? in Austin]

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Purpura said they want the hitters in the organization to improve their on-base percentage, which means see more pitches, work the count better and take walks, among other things.

"Simply put, though, we have to hit better situationally," he said. "We have to produce more runs."

...which makes the decision to DFA a high-OBP, high-BBs, high pitches/AB hitter like Todd Self all the more bewildering...

Self was let go before that decision was made.  But, he'd be exactly the kind of guy who'd fit the bill.  I saw him as the anti-Jimerson.

Self had no power and for a first baseman that was his detriment.  At least Lyle Overbay was able to improve in the power department to increase his value, but Self (an Overbay type of hitter in the minors) seemed unable to add power to his game.  The comparison to Jimerson is not really that should be made, more like would you rather have Mike Lamb or Todd Self for a bench job on the team?

[No? in Austin]

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So in a late inning pressure-filled PH situation, rather than bringing a veteran to the plate who would normally fill such a role, you want a rookie instead?

A veteran of course.  But who and when they will acquire such a bat, that remains to be seen.  What was written in this article is that as of now, Jimerson is an *option* to consider and I agree that he is.

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And a rookie who's had problems consistently putting bat on ball at AA, much less against major league pitching?

You forgot to add "as a starter" in your assessment, to which I agree.  This article is speaking of a bench role and I can see where Jimerson's value is increased as such, even as an aggressive hitter.

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Who has a grand total of 23 ABs at AAA and not even one official AB in the big leagues?

By that logic, then Kevin Orie is a better option because he has experience, but his would be a one dimesional type of power right handed bat, while Jimerson could provide three items of value.  Like I said, I don't disagree with the article because I see that early in spring, Mr. Jimerson has worked his way into being an option and that is all that is being discussed at this point.  And I agree that the value is there, while conceeding that *IF* we were talking about a starter job the proposition would be highly dubious at best.

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(BTW, how many position players in the Astros system, other than Taveras who now faces the possibility of going back to the minors, have made the leap essentially from AA to the big leagues over the last 10 years?)

I don't know.  But why is a bench job, or in essence a 25th man position causing so much consternation?

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I'm thinking Mr. Waiver Wire Guy gets the job instead.

Probably so.  I can whole heartedly agree with this.  But as of today, Jimerson is an option in camp and that is all I read in this article.  Nothing in it said he was a lock.  

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Now if they're looking for Jimerson to fill the Glen Barker role (pinch-running, late inning D) and little else, then perhaps he does have a chance to make the squad. But to expect him to provide right-handed pop off the bench, that seems like a pipe dream at this stage of his career.

Not if used correctly and I trust Phil Garner to know how to use his bench.  It has been a staple of his managerial prowess to date, along with how he uses his bullpen.  Most of the time to the amazement of fans and media alike too.

[No? in Austin]

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BTW, do you think the club opens the year with 11 or 12 pitchers? If the latter (which I would think would be the more likely scenario), then this whole discussion becomes moot anyway as there wouldn't be room for either Jimerson or Scott (or Willy T) on the roster.

The first month of the season, you don't need a #5 starter.  So they usually settle for 11 pitchers at the beginning and sometime in May choose who from the bench to send down.

[No? in Austin]

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Would they possibly semi-platoon Bagwell and Lane? I have a difficult time seeing Wilson as the starting centerfielder for the entire season. I agree Willy needs to play, just not in RR. If Wilson could switch between RF, CF, LF, the semi-platoon could work, by using Berkman as a LF-1B full time. Lane and Bags might lose 100 AB's for the season in that case.

If the Astros want to send Willy to RR to work on switch hitting... now I could understand that.

The decision has already been made.  IF Jeff Bagwell is a starter, then Willy Taveras goes to Round Rock to get his innings in and stay sharp.  It's unfortunate for Willy but what needs to be done in case someone goes down and they would need to make a move.  You need Willy to play, not sit.

[Jacksonian]

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I'm surprised you took the time to write this out.

Obviously I have a higher (but not by much) opinion of Jimerson's value.

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You know as well as anyone the trouble Jimerson has recognizing pitches.  It doesn't appear he's turned the corner, nor does it appear he'll ever do so.  He could be a power off the bench guy.  But, that notion is predicated on him making contact at all.  If he gets at bats in any meaningful situation in mlb, he'll get a steady diet of off-speed pitches and fastballs off the plate from the better relievers in the game, except Wagner of course.

Wait a minute, it's just the opposite.  A manager like Phil Garner will know when and how to use a hitter like Jimerson and his aggressive approach.  Jimerson is aggressive and when he makes contact, the ball travels a very long way.  A reliever who comes into game with inherited runners and trying to hold a lead has little time to fool around with corners and throw off-speed pitches.  Usually those relievers brought into those situations are the type that challenge hitters.  And that is when a smart manager would use a Jimerson (or a Lamb).  Daryle Ward used to be a pinch hitter for Larry Dierker and Dierk would reserve using Ward for late inning situations when he needed a power bat.  Ward would go up to the plate and take pitches right down the freaking middle of the plate.  The count wouldn't favor Ward in most of those situations and then he would get himself out by actually not swinging at pitches and doing what came naturally to him *as a starter* in the minors, working counts.

A quality reliever is going to throw off-speed pitches in any situation if the off-speed pitch is in the reliever's repertoire.  That's one of the reasons they make it to and stay in the majors.  The problem with Jimerson is the combination of his aggressiveness and inability to recognize pitches.

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It wasn't until veteran reserve pinch hitter Stan Javier got to Ward and told him to be aggressive and look to hit the first pitch because that is usually the situation a reliever is trying to do when in a jam, get over with a first pitch strike.   So if I were advocating Garner using Jimerson as a start a rally type of pinch hitter late in a game, then I'd agree that there are much better options.  But that is what guys like Palmerio and Burke are on the team to do from the bench.

But, if that first pitch isn't a fastball down the middle or a hanger, Jimerson's in trouble.

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Which, in Jimerson's case, means whiff-city.

But for a pinch hitter late in the game with power, that is what you want, not someone who will look at a pitch that a reliever will try to get away with.  But if you want to talk about guys like Lidge, Gagne or other top of the line closer types, trust me, it is hard for *anyone* to hit them, patient or not.  Better to come back to the bench as a pinch hitter swinging the stick than having it resting on your shoulders with men on the bases that need to score.

Much better to whiff.



With his history of an inability to make consistent contact, if Jimerson weren't incredibly athletic even with a power stroke he wouldn't be near the 40-man roster.  But, clearly his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his baseball problems.

[astro pete]

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The first month of the season, you don't need a #5 starter.  So they usually settle for 11 pitchers at the beginning and sometime in May choose who from the bench to send down.

Uhh, with all of three off days in April, I'm thinking they're gonna need a #5 starter.

[No? in Austin]

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A quality reliever is going to throw off-speed pitches in any situation if the off-speed pitch is in the reliever's repertoire.

A manager wants power arms in his bullpen for such occasions as men on base, lead to hold and you have to shut down the opposition.  I think you're being shortsighted with this situation.  Or at least broad brushing it for sake of being critical of Jimerson's value.  Like I said, I fully agree that Jimerson's aggressiveness works against him as a starter or in *other* situations (*like starting a rally late in a game*) off the bench, but I can see when Garner would want to match power against power late in a game.  Jimerson can hit the cheese and it is mano-a-mano when you bring in your good country hardball pitcher to match up against your good cheese hitting bat.

It's actually fun to watch.

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That's one of the reasons they make it to and stay in the majors.

Guys like Jenks, Wagner (when he came up), Felix Rodriquez, et. al. come to majors as good ol country hardballers.  They serve as situational guys when you need to have your hard thrower come in and blow a guy away.  If you send up a guy who takes pitches, you're now behind the pitcher and he can serve up little wrinkle pitches to get you out.  When you want to get to these types of pitchers is early when they need to *establish* their fastball... and establish it right away.  The situation calls for no fooling around with corners or off-speed.  That is when you can have a one-dimensional hitter to match up with the one-dimesional reliever.  It's fun and may the best man win.  I actually want a hitter who swings the bat up there, even if it is Kingman-esque.  It is still the necessary approach that works *in that situation*.

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The problem with Jimerson is the combination of his aggressiveness and inability to recognize pitches.

Jimerson recognizes a fastball well enough to make them travel over 500 ft the other way.  Could be lots of fun to see that every once and awhile in situations as I've laid out.

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But, if that first pitch isn't a fastball down the middle or a hanger, Jimerson's in trouble.

Quick, tell me... when Bobby Jenks comes into a game, what do you think the possibility is that the first pitch is a fastball?  See what I mean?

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With his history of an inability to make consistent contact, if Jimerson weren't incredibly athletic even with a power stroke he wouldn't be near the 40-man roster.  But, clearly his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his baseball problems.

"His baseball problems" is too wide sweeping a remark.  Do you mean as a starter?  I agree.  Do you mean as a major leaguer that can help in certain situations?  I disagree.

[No? in Austin]

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The first month of the season, you don't need a #5 starter.  So they usually settle for 11 pitchers at the beginning and sometime in May choose who from the bench to send down.

Uhh, with all of three off days in April, I'm thinking they're gonna need a #5 starter.

Cool.  So if they want to carry 11, then may drop one reliever (the long guy) for a month.

[Greg D]

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The first month of the season, you don't need a #5 starter.  So they usually settle for 11 pitchers at the beginning and sometime in May choose who from the bench to send down.

Uhh, with all of three off days in April, I'm thinking they're gonna need a #5 starter.

Cool.  So if they want to carry 11, then may drop one reliever (the long guy) for a month.

Nope. With all the questions surrounding the starters (Andy easing back into things, the #4 and #5 guys unlikely to be inning-eaters), the bully will be used early and often. You'll need that 7th guy out there.

[No? in Austin]

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Nope. With all the questions surrounding the starters (Andy easing back into things, the #4 and #5 guys unlikely to be inning-eaters), the bully will be used early and often. You'll need that 7th guy out there.

Cool, but you asked my opinion about what they would carry and I gave it.  So be it, they'll carry 12 men because the pitching is weaker.  No room for Jimerson or Scott or Mr. Waiver Wire Guy at that point.

BTW - I've been sounding a warning bell in here for two years now about the need for inning-eaters at the #3 or #4 spot.  What I recall is that I've been told that they don't need inning-eaters, the bullpen is fine and Oswalt eats innings all by himself.  But that is a discussion for another day when the spring is coming to close and the Astros have *not* acquired another arm for a starters spot.  I believe they are looking to make a deal, but don't quote me on that as fact because it is my own opinion and nothing something I know for a fact.

[Jacksonian]

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A quality reliever is going to throw off-speed pitches in any situation if the off-speed pitch is in the reliever's repertoire.

A manager wants power arms in his bullpen for such occasions as men on base, lead to hold and you have to shut down the opposition.  I think you're being shortsighted with this situation.  Or at least broad brushing it for sake of being critical of Jimerson's value.  Like I said, I fully agree that Jimerson's aggressiveness works against him as a starter or in *other* situations (*like starting a rally late in a game*) off the bench, but I can see when Garner would want to match power against power late in a game.  Jimerson can hit the cheese and it is mano-a-mano when you bring in your good country hardball pitcher to match up against your good cheese hitting bat.

It's actually fun to watch.

I think you're being artificially narrow in your definition of what kind of reliever is going to be used in these situations.

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That's one of the reasons they make it to and stay in the majors.

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Guys like Jenks, Wagner (when he came up), Felix Rodriquez, et. al. come to majors as good ol country hardballers.  They serve as situational guys when you need to have your hard thrower come in and blow a guy away.  If you send up a guy who takes pitches, you're now behind the pitcher and he can serve up little wrinkle pitches to get you out.  When you want to get to these types of pitchers is early when they need to *establish* their fastball... and establish it right away.  The situation calls for no fooling around with corners or off-speed.  That is when you can have a one-dimensional hitter to match up with the one-dimesional reliever.  It's fun and may the best man win.  I actually want a hitter who swings the bat up there, even if it is Kingman-esque.  It is still the necessary approach that works *in that situation*.

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The problem with Jimerson is the combination of his aggressiveness and inability to recognize pitches.

Jimerson recognizes a fastball well enough to make them travel over 500 ft the other way.  Could be lots of fun to see that every once and awhile in situations as I've laid out.

Right, but he's got to get a fastball in the hitting zone to do that.

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But, if that first pitch isn't a fastball down the middle or a hanger, Jimerson's in trouble.

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Quick, tell me... when Bobby Jenks comes into a game, what do you think the possibility is that the first pitch is a fastball?  See what I mean?

Quick, tell me... when Chad Qualls or Dan Wheeler comes into a game, what do you think the possibility is that the first pitch is a fastball?  See what I mean?

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With his history of an inability to make consistent contact, if Jimerson weren't incredibly athletic even with a power stroke he wouldn't be near the 40-man roster.  But, clearly his athleticism isn't enough to overcome his baseball problems.

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"His baseball problems" is too wide sweeping a remark.  Do you mean as a starter?  I agree.  Do you mean as a major leaguer that can help in certain situations?  I disagree.

His inability to hit for anything other than power.  I should not have written "baseball problems."

[No? in Austin]

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I think you're being artificially narrow in your definition of what kind of reliever is going to be used in these situations.

Probably, but it is the type of reliever that would normally or traditionally be used because you cannot afford in such a situation to fool with corners or off-speed pitches.  If an oppossion manager were to send up a off-speed reliever specialist in such a situation, then I'd look to my bench and see if Palmerio is available, since he takes a ton of pitches and has a great eye.  If he's already been used, I'll go down my list of guys that I can use in such a *match-up*.  That is what managing is all about, going with strengths in match-ups in situations that present themselves late in games for baseball. In that vein, Jimerson would fit to hit against in a pinch hitters role in a situation that I've defined and as a 25th man, one that I wouldn't hestitate to put him in.  

Narrow?  Probably, but that is all I've been talking about while the discussion seems to be about Jimerson in a much more wide scope.  I agree, in a wider defined role on the team, Jimerson is lacking.  But then again, when has a 25th man role been one with a wide definition of scope?

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Right, but he's got to get a fastball in the hitting zone to do that.

And of course a fastball in the hitting zone *never* happens in the majors?  BTW - I've watched Jimerson hit now for three years.  I doesn't necessarily have to be right down the middle of the plate.  It is the balls in the dirt (*mostly sliders*) that he has problems with.  If you want to talk narrow, I think you've convinced yourself that Jimerson can only hit down the middle of the plate pitches and that is not necessarily true from what I've seen him do.

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Quick, tell me... when Chad Qualls or Dan Wheeler comes into a game, what do you think the possibility is that the first pitch is a fastball?  See what I mean?

Qualls or Wheeler come into the begining of an inning primarily.  A guy like Jenks was used at the beginning of his career as a fireman.  Usually, men on base, scoring position, team holding a slim lead and we need to get this guy out type of situation.  When Qualls was put in such a situation in the World Series, he threw a first pitch, get over fastball to Paul Konerko.  And that quickly became a grand slam.

See the difference?

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His inability to hit for anything other than power.  I should not have written "baseball problems."

And hitting for power is all I've tried to discussed for a 25th man role.

[Jacksonian]

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I think you're being artificially narrow in your definition of what kind of reliever is going to be used in these situations.

Probably, but it is the type of reliever that would normally or traditionally be used because you cannot afford in such a situation to fool with corners or off-speed pitches.  If an oppossion manager were to send up a off-speed reliever specialist in such a situation, then I'd look to my bench and see if Palmerio is available, since he takes a ton of pitches and has a great eye.  If he's already been used, I'll go down my list of guys that I can use in such a *match-up*.  That is what managing is all about, going with strengths in match-ups in situations that present themselves late in games for baseball. In that vein, Jimerson would fit to hit against in a pinch hitters role in a situation that I've defined and as a 25th man, one that I wouldn't hestitate to put him in.  

Narrow?  Probably, but that is all I've been talking about while the discussion seems to be about Jimerson in a much more wide scope.  I agree, in a wider defined role on the team, Jimerson is lacking.  But then again, when has a 25th man role been one with a wide definition of scope?

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Right, but he's got to get a fastball in the hitting zone to do that.

And of course a fastball in the hitting zone *never* happens in the majors?  BTW - I've watched Jimerson hit now for three years.  I doesn't necessarily have to be right down the middle of the plate.  It is the balls in the dirt (*mostly sliders*) that he has problems with.  If you want to talk narrow, I think you've convinced yourself that Jimerson can only hit down the middle of the plate pitches and that is not necessarily true from what I've seen him do.

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Quick, tell me... when Chad Qualls or Dan Wheeler comes into a game, what do you think the possibility is that the first pitch is a fastball?  See what I mean?

Qualls or Wheeler come into the begining of an inning primarily.  A guy like Jenks was used at the beginning of his career as a fireman.  Usually, men on base, scoring position, team holding a slim lead and we need to get this guy out type of situation.  When Qualls was put in such a situation in the World Series, he threw a first pitch, get over fastball to Paul Konerko.  And that quickly became a grand slam.

See the difference?

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His inability to hit for anything other than power.  I should not have written "baseball problems."

And hitting for power is all I've tried to discussed for a 25th man role.

25th man.  Good grief what the hell are we doing.  If Jimerson makes the majors as the 25th man it'll be primarily as a defensively replacement who can play all 3 positions well.  If he gets at-bats they'll be few and far between, and he'll be swinging for the fences on nearly every pitch.  In any case he likely wouldn't make much difference to the team's overall record.  I will admit, looking at who the Astros have, Jimerson makes the most sense as a mlb non-starter.  He's got little upside left.  What you see is what you're going to get with him.  But, Garner is already on record as leaning toward 12 pitchers to start the season.  So, what the hell.

[astro pete]

The Annual 25th Man Debate.  Opening Day must be right around the corner...

[No? in Austin]

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The Annual 25th Man Debate.  Opening Day must be right around the corner...

Yup.

[No? in Austin]

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25th man.  Good grief what the hell are we doing.

 

I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  We're just doing what comes naturally in this forum.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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25th man.  Good grief what the hell are we doing.

 

I think Pete hit the nail on the head.  We're just doing what comes naturally in this forum.

Beats the hell out of some of the other conversations between the end of October and into February!