Astros haven't asked Bagwell to retire

[OldBlevins]

Although it appears they've hinted at it, left cryptic notes in his locker, sent him brochures about summer vacation spots, etc.
 
The Link

The strangest thing in this article is the notion that the parties' perception of the insurance policy deadline has changed.  How could that be?  Wouldn't you familiarize yourself with the policy right away when this came up?

[Jacksonian]

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Although it appears they've hinted at it, left cryptic notes in his locker, sent him brochures about summer vacation spots, etc.
 
The Link

The strangest thing in this article is the notion that the parties' perception of the insurance policy deadline has changed.  How could that be?  Wouldn't you familiarize yourself with the policy right away when this came up?

This is the part that bothers me:

"The intent of this is to find out where Jeff stands right now," Purpura said. "He's refused to visit with the team doctors this offseason. Until a doctor sees him, we don't know where he stands."

Jokes about the Astros med staff aside, why wouldn't Bagwell seek out medical advise along the way?

[MusicMan]

I don't see any way this will end well.

[Froback]

When you are set on something, sometimes it is hard to find out you can't have it and ignorance is bliss in that situation.

I am guessing he fears what they might say, and wants to live with the thought that he CAN make it back, until it is proved otherwise (in Spring Training).

Also since the original thought was he could try in Spring Training before having to make the decision based on the insurance deadline, he probably wanted to give him time to re-hab more to give doctors a clearer picture, and figured it was too early to tell for sure.

Now that the truth is out (about the deadline) a certain amount of panic response is going on, on both sides.

That is my guess.  I do like that Bagwell's agent recongizes why there might be some push by the Astros for a definative answer before the insurance deadline.  It was also good to note that there is not as much animosity between the two parties as might have been thought.  Both are stressing a bit over the situation for different reasons though (each over their worst case scenarios).

[Froback]

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I don't see any way this will end well.

Given the deadline and where Bagwell is in his rehab, I agree.

My gut-feeling is the Astros will have to eat his contract for the year without insurance coverage and Bagwell will not be able to play the whole season (if any) at a level he and the club would hope.

[rdkapp]

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Jokes about the Astros med staff aside, why wouldn't Bagwell seek out medical advise along the way?

Could be several good reasons:
1. Perhaps because he knows his body well enough to know that up to this point nothing has changed since the surgery.
2. Perhaps because its feeling better than it has in years.
3. Perhaps because he hasn't done much, if any, throwing of a baseball and he feels only improvement since the surgery.
4. Perhaps because he doesn't want to waste a day in a doctor's office when he feels nothing has changed since the surgery and he doesn't want to miss a single day of rehab.

I'm sure there are more legitimate reasons that I haven't listed, but I don't think his failure/refusal to seek medical advice up to this point says anything more than what it is on its face.  I understand the reasons for sending him to Dr. Andrews and I agree with them, but otherwise, give the guy a break and let him do his thing.

[Froback]

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I understand the reasons for sending him to Dr. Andrews and I agree with them, but otherwise, give the guy a break and let him do his thing.

Not to knock on Bagwell, but my response to this is:

"Yeah, cause players NEVER over estimate their medical status!"

I understand him not feeling he needs to go, but why refuse to end all doubt?  And I doubt a trip to the doctor is really going to impact his re-hab schedule.

[rdkapp]

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I don't see any way this will end well.

I don't agree because I don't see the Astros making a huge deal out of it.  I think right now, the Astros are doing the due diligence thing, by checking the situation out.  You never know what Dr. Andrews finds in Bags' shoulder and what he convinces Bagwell to do (retire? - probably not, but you never know, depending upon what the medical findings are).  On the flip side, if Dr. Andrews sees improvement and finds that Bagwell could proceed with rehab and perhaps play the entire season at least on a part time basis, then I think the Astros will live with that and raise no stink.  The Astros organization has stuck by Bagwell (and Biggio) and vice versa through it all, with all parties showing class along the way.  I see no reason that that will change here.  I take Purpura at his word when he said....

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"A healthy Jeff Bagwell is what we want. If he can't be a full-time player, we have to figure out if we can collect on the insurance or not."

 

The Astros would be incredibly stupid if they didn't investigate the situation prior to the January 31st deadline and I'm sure that Bagwell and his agent understand that situation.  After all, it's business.

[Reuben]

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The strangest thing in this article is the notion that the parties' perception of the insurance policy deadline has changed.  How could that be?  Wouldn't you familiarize yourself with the policy right away when this came up?

Yeah, for God's sake, have somebody read the fine print, right? Did they forget which drawer they stuck the policy in?

[Arky Vaughan]

If Bagwell couldn't play and simply retired, wouldn't that relieve the Astros of the obligation to pay him?

[rdkapp]

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I understand him not feeling he needs to go, but why refuse to end all doubt? ...

Because it likely won't end all doubt.

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...  And I doubt a trip to the doctor is really going to impact his re-hab schedule.

Worst case scenario is that he'd miss a full day of rehab and maybe that's too much for him when he knows what the situation is.

[Cheo]

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I don't see any way this will end well.

Given the deadline and where Bagwell is in his rehab, I agree.

My gut-feeling is the Astros will have to eat his contract for the year without insurance coverage and Bagwell will not be able to play the whole season (if any) at a level he and the club would hope.

I believe that will be the scenario that plays out as well.   If so, the Astros will use him extensively as a pinch-hitter and probably shop him to a AL team by the All-Star break.

[Froback]

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If Bagwell couldn't play and simply retired, wouldn't that relieve the Astros of the obligation to pay him?

Not knowing for sure, but ussually one of two things happends, They pay him whatever he was to earn that year (assuming last year of deal) or they work out some agreement of a pay-out.

But what the Astros do, will probably involve some negotiating with Bagwell and his Agent.

[Andyzipp]

Other than the ridiculous notion of nobility, there is no reason for Jeff Bagwell to retire.  The Astros are obligated to pay him the amounts specified in his guaranteed contract, somewhere arund $17 million.

No matter how much it would help the Astros, I don't begrudge Bagwell for collecting what is owed to him.  The only way for him to get it is to attempt to play.

Not one person would legitimately walk away from $17 million dollars to be on a baseball team.

Doesn't mean the team won't approach him at some future point about doing so.  But a buy out is likely to only save the team a couple of million dollars or so.

[utastro]

Doesn't Bagwell also have an option (player or club?) for next year in the neighborhood of $7 million?  Would the insurance pick that up as well?

[NeilT]

Well, it would probably be better for both sides to work out a retirement than for the Astros to release Bagwell. 'Course I guess the 'Stros could just park him on the DL.

I'd assume that if it came to that, Bagwell would still get paid the full contract amount if he retired.

[LJ1]

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I understand him not feeling he needs to go, but why refuse to end all doubt? ...

Because it likely won't end all doubt.

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...  And I doubt a trip to the doctor is really going to impact his re-hab schedule.

Worst case scenario is that he'd miss a full day of rehab and maybe that's too much for him when he knows what the situation is.

There is no reason to not be seeing a doctor through the rehab.  With the kind of money the Astros are paying him, if he doesn't like the company doctors, then choose a different doctor and see him on a regular basis.  The Astros asking for a medical update, considering how much he means to the team makeup, seems like a given.  I can't believe they have not had any updates all winter.

Just for the record, I hope he can come back and contribute.  I would hate to see him retire because of injury and part on bad terms.  But if not, I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

[HudsonHawk]

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I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

Bagwell's money is not preventing the Astros from signing anyone else.  His roster spot isn't preventing them from signing a top quality guy either.  Bagwell is taking up the 25th spot on the roster right now.

[pravata]

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I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

Bagwell's money is not preventing the Astros from signing anyone else.  His roster spot isn't preventing them from signing a top quality guy either.  Bagwell is taking up the 25th spot on the roster right now.

EXACTLY.  They were willing to pay Tejada.  Given the chance they'll sign Clemens at 12:01 on 5/2, for whatever he wants.  Why are we worried about saving Mclane money?  Who's out there to buy?

[BUWebguy]

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Other than the ridiculous notion of nobility, there is no reason for Jeff Bagwell to retire.  The Astros are obligated to pay him the amounts specified in his guaranteed contract, somewhere arund $17 million.

No matter how much it would help the Astros, I don't begrudge Bagwell for collecting what is owed to him.  The only way for him to get it is to attempt to play.

Agreed that there's no reason for him to retire and give up the money that way. However, if he retires because the shoulder won't let him play -- that's what the insurance is for, right? Either way, it seems like he would get his money. I guess it's all in how the "retirement" works out. Or does he have to spend the year on the DL for the insurance to qualify? Seems like that would be the same thing, anyway.

[lc_db]

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This is the part that bothers me:

"The intent of this is to find out where Jeff stands right now," Purpura said. "He's refused to visit with the team doctors this offseason. Until a doctor sees him, we don't know where he stands."

Jokes about the Astros med staff aside, why wouldn't Bagwell seek out medical advise along the way?

One would think that a doctor would be somewhat involved in his rehab.  I'm assuming Bagwell has his own doctor.

This seems to be a case that the team is seeking out a "third party" opinion from someone outside of Bagwell's "camp".

[Jose Cruz III]

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If Bagwell couldn't play and simply retired, wouldn't that relieve the Astros of the obligation to pay him?

If he retires because of injury he would still get his money. But the Astros could collect an insurance payout for most of it. Either Bags gets his money. If he retires because he wants to then they are off the hook for his salary.

[Jacksonian]

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This is the part that bothers me:

"The intent of this is to find out where Jeff stands right now," Purpura said. "He's refused to visit with the team doctors this offseason. Until a doctor sees him, we don't know where he stands."

Jokes about the Astros med staff aside, why wouldn't Bagwell seek out medical advise along the way?

One would think that a doctor would be somewhat involved in his rehab.  I'm assuming Bagwell has his own doctor.

This seems to be a case that the team is seeking out a "third party" opinion from someone outside of Bagwell's "camp".

That's not the bother.  "Refuse" is the bother.  The Astros are going to pay him $17 mil in 2006, and he refuses to see their doctor.  He ought to feel obligated to have his shoulder examined by the Astros.

And, notice, Purp said "refused" not "hasn't had a chance".  I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I'd like to know why Bagwell has copped this kind of attitude.

[Andyzipp]

Likely because he doesn't want a decision made in his current condition.  He feels he still has room for improvement and that seeing a doctor in December or January is too early in the process.

[MikeyBoy]

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That's not the bother.  "Refuse" is the bother.  The Astros are going to pay him $17 mil in 2006, and he refuses to see their doctor.  He ought to feel obligated to have his shoulder examined by the Astros.

And, notice, Purp said "refused" not "hasn't had a chance".  I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I'd like to know why Bagwell has copped this kind of attitude.

Bagwell might be worried that a "team" doctor would be more harsh on the assessment of his shoulder. Especially, if Bagwell already feels pressured by the Astros to retire.

[LJ1]

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I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

Bagwell's money is not preventing the Astros from signing anyone else.  His roster spot isn't preventing them from signing a top quality guy either.  Bagwell is taking up the 25th spot on the roster right now.

Your crazy if you don't think the insurance paying Drayton 15 million or so would not allow Purpura more flexibility in going after someone.  I'm not just talking about now, but later in the year also.

Again, my biggest hope is Bagwell can come back and play well, but if not, we need to move on.

[Jacksonian]

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Likely because he doesn't want a decision made in his current condition.  He feels he still has room for improvement and that seeing a doctor in December or January is too early in the process.

Wait.  You're saying Bagwell is likely afraid that the Astros team doctors will pronounce judgement now, even before his rehab is complete, despite the fact that Purpura is on record as setting the bar during ST?

[Andyzipp]

Let's just say that Bagwell/Axelrod is correct in their assumption about the Astros wishes, verbalized or not.

[pravata]

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I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

Bagwell's money is not preventing the Astros from signing anyone else.  His roster spot isn't preventing them from signing a top quality guy either.  Bagwell is taking up the 25th spot on the roster right now.

Your crazy if you don't think the insurance paying Drayton 15 million or so would not allow Purpura more flexibility in going after someone.  I'm not just talking about now, but later in the year also.

Again, my biggest hope is Bagwell can come back and play well, but if not, we need to move on.

I think he just reads,

"Sure, absolutely I would (increase the budget)," (Mclane) said. "Money is not an object right now."
The Link

[HudsonHawk]

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Your crazy if you don't think the insurance paying Drayton 15 million or so would not allow Purpura more flexibility in going after someone.  I'm not just talking about now, but later in the year also.

And if you think that a lack of money has ever prevented Mclane from signing anyone he feels is helpful, particularly in the middle of the season, then you simply have not been paying attention.

[Jacksonian]

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Let's just say that Bagwell/Axelrod is correct in their assumption about the Astros wishes, verbalized or not.

But, why would Bagwell give a rats ass?  He's going to get the 17 mil.  Even if the Astros outright release him, which wouldn't happen, he'd still continue with the rehab and by the end of March would know whether he could play.  And, if he could, some team would have him.

[No? in Austin]

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I don't see any way this will end well.

Given the deadline and where Bagwell is in his rehab, I agree.

My gut-feeling is the Astros will have to eat his contract for the year without insurance coverage and Bagwell will not be able to play the whole season (if any) at a level he and the club would hope.

I believe that will be the scenario that plays out as well.   If so, the Astros will use him extensively as a pinch-hitter and probably shop him to a AL team by the All-Star break.

Baggs has 10/5 rights and can veto a trade.  So he could, obstensively, dictate the trade if he so wishes and right now, other than Boston, I don't think he wants to move from Houston.

[austro]

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And if you think that a lack of money has ever prevented Mclane from signing anyone he feels is helpful, particularly in the middle of the season, then you simply have not been paying attention.

I think one thing that tends to get overlooked is that the Astros are able to do things in mid-season (when pickings are richer and needs are clearer) precisely because they usually refrain from doing stupid things when pickings are slim (like right now).  Those who infer that Mclane won't spend in mid-season because he's unwilling to spend right now are probably drawing exactly the wrong conclusion.

[LJ1]

You seem to think we suddenly have Steinbrenner.  Yes, Drayton has gone out and spent over his budget when needed and made some great additions mid season.  But 15 million is ALWAYS a factor.  The quote Drayton made about money not being an object makes me feel great as a fan.  But the realist in me knows there are limits.

[No? in Austin]

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If Bagwell couldn't play and simply retired, wouldn't that relieve the Astros of the obligation to pay him?

I think the Joey Belle situation comes into play here.  Baggs cannot retire, because if he does, he walks away from the money (see: McGwire, Mark).  Of course, in McGwire's case, he walked away, the Cardinals collected the insurance policy that was different in this case and paid Big Mac a lump sum of it.  In the case of Joey Belle, he didn't retire, he simply was deemed by doctors as "physically unable to perform" his baseball duty.  Because of that, Belle was paid by the insurance company the lum sum of his remaining contract while the Indians kept him on the books as a "physicall unable to perform" player (as sort of permanent disabled list).  Belle had to remain on the roster for the duration for the insurance to pay off.

Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again.  It may be inevitable though.

[JackAstro]

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I would like to see the money and roster spot go to someone who can help us get back to the world series.

Bagwell's money is not preventing the Astros from signing anyone else.  His roster spot isn't preventing them from signing a top quality guy either.  Bagwell is taking up the 25th spot on the roster right now.

EXACTLY.  They were willing to pay Tejada.  Given the chance they'll sign Clemens at 12:01 on 5/2, for whatever he wants.  Why are we worried about saving Mclane money?  Who's out there to buy?

Thanks for getting this out there so concisely, because this is precisely what's been going through my head. I mean honestly, why should I care? It's not my money, it's not money that's being held away from a pivotal free agent, and if Rocket or a pricey trade option comes up as available later in the year, Drayton has historically shown willingness to expand the payroll. One way or the other, next year's free agent crop will be more useful, and the money will be there to throw at the group. Until then, it just doesn't matter to me whether the Astros are unprofitable, very profitable or break-even. Whether Bagwell retires or not seems to have more to do with Lane's playing time than anything. If there's no other important place to be spending the money, then let Drayton's accountants worry about it.

[astro pete]

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Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again.  It may be inevitable though.

Bagwell is different from Albert Belle in that Bagwell can hit.  At a minimum, he can be the most expensive pinch hitter in history.  How can he possibly be deemed "physically unable to perform?"

[rdkapp]

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I think the Joey Belle situation comes into play here. Baggs cannot retire, because if he does, he walks away from the money (see: McGwire, Mark). Of course, in McGwire's case, he walked away, the Cardinals collected the insurance policy that was different in this case and paid Big Mac a lump sum of it. In the case of Joey Belle, he didn't retire, he simply was deemed by doctors as "physically unable to perform" his baseball duty. Because of that, Belle was paid by the insurance company the lum sum of his remaining contract while the Indians kept him on the books as a "physicall unable to perform" player (as sort of permanent disabled list). Belle had to remain on the roster for the duration for the insurance to pay off.

Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again. It may be inevitable though.

I believe No? is right.  It is my understanding that the insurance policy covering Bags will only pay if Bagwell is unable to play baseball, period.  Since he's already claiming and as recently as the 2005 WS, he could hit, then I believe the Astros have an uphill battle claiming the insurance proceeds.  Because if Bagwell can hit, he can play in the AL as a DH.  Of course, if this is accurate, I'm sure the Astros' are going through the Insurance policy with a fine toothed comb looking for some loophole.  But I believe that the Albert Belle policy was exactly like that.

[HudsonHawk]

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But the realist in me knows there are limits.

There are limits.  But you're stating that the money sunk into Bagwell will prevent them from signing some other worthwhile player.  This argument would have some merit if there was any evidence whatsoever that this is the way Mclane operates and not nearly so much evidence to the contrary.  This scenario about which you seem worried has just never happened, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it will, your handwringing and consternation aside.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

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I think the Joey Belle situation comes into play here. Baggs cannot retire, because if he does, he walks away from the money (see: McGwire, Mark). Of course, in McGwire's case, he walked away, the Cardinals collected the insurance policy that was different in this case and paid Big Mac a lump sum of it. In the case of Joey Belle, he didn't retire, he simply was deemed by doctors as "physically unable to perform" his baseball duty. Because of that, Belle was paid by the insurance company the lum sum of his remaining contract while the Indians kept him on the books as a "physicall unable to perform" player (as sort of permanent disabled list). Belle had to remain on the roster for the duration for the insurance to pay off.

Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again. It may be inevitable though.

I believe No? is right.  It is my understanding that the insurance policy covering Bags will only pay if Bagwell is unable to play baseball, period.  Since he's already claiming and as recently as the 2005 WS, he could hit, then I believe the Astros have an uphill battle claiming the insurance proceeds.  Because if Bagwell can hit, he can play in the AL as a DH.  Of course, if this is accurate, I'm sure the Astros' are going through the Insurance policy with a fine toothed comb looking for some loophole.  But I believe that the Albert Belle policy was exactly like that.

I was talking to my wife, who until recently was an insurance consultant and is now a stay at home mother, and she said the "all or nothing" type policies were usually more expensive as the liability of a full value payout off-set the lower risk of the higher probability of a partial disability compared to a fully disabled claimant.  

Despite that, though, she said there is always the option to re-negotiate an insurance contract, especially when the insurance company could potentially reduce it's liability, that would allow for partial compensation to the Astros should Bagwell only be capable of PH or otherwise part time play.  

I don't know if that applies to professional sports contracts, and the applicable insurance, but it seems reasonable to assume it would.  From what she said, it would seem that unless the Astros were only interested in full compensation, they should be able to find some middle ground with the insurer who now stands to pay out nearly $17mil, or whatever the insured amount may be.

[lc_db]

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Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again.  It may be inevitable though.

My thoughts exactly.  The cliche "Going out on his own terms" comes to mind.

[rdkapp]

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I don't know if that applies to professional sports contracts, and the applicable insurance, but it seems reasonable to assume it would. From what she said, it would seem that unless the Astros were only interested in full compensation, they should be able to find some middle ground with the insurer who now stands to pay out nearly $17mil, or whatever the insured amount may be.

From the Richard Justice article in the Houston Chronicle  Richard Justice article, the policy amount is around $15.6 million.

[Andyzipp]

Which he very likely made up.

[No? in Austin]

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Something tells me that Baggs is looking at putting off being deemed "physically unable to perform" for fear it will permanently remove him from being a baseball player (active) ever again.  It may be inevitable though.

Bagwell is different from Albert Belle in that Bagwell can hit.  At a minimum, he can be the most expensive pinch hitter in history.  How can he possibly be deemed "physically unable to perform?"

He plays in the NL and must be able to throw a baseball.  However, if he is just a pinch-hitter, his power is all but gone now.  He is not only the most expensive pinch hitter in history, he is the most expensive singles pinch hitter in history.

Mo Vaughn and Albert Belle were deemed physically unable to perform and I'm sure they could hit singles as well, although neither one of them could run.  Your point is well taken, however I think the Astros want more from Bagwell than just being a singles pinch hitter and a doctor visit may just provide enough information for the Astros to request a "physical unable to perform" call from the insurance company itself.

And it would end Bagwell's career too if that happens.

[jwhudson]

51 Home Runs - It is certainly doable in two years.  His friend Biggio is hanging around for another year.  The guarentee to the HOF is that WS they will win this year.  If it was me those would be my two goals, and I wouldn't let anyone stop me from being on the this team, it's my team.  Bagwell will be playing somewhere, but I think he would rather be in Houston.