Author Topic: After giving the benefit of doubt...  (Read 17359 times)

otterj

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After giving the benefit of doubt...
« on: December 22, 2005, 04:18:40 am »
Purpura appears to be a sweaty puppet of McLane, the exact reason that Hunsicker left.

Puppet being the operative word.

The exact reason that Hunsicker left.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2005, 10:16:59 am »
i kinda had a wait and see attitude but is funny a team that made it to the world series keeps moaning bout the deals that are not out there or those that cant be made yet there seems to be deals flying out the wazoo for every other team in baseball..
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2005, 10:33:39 am »
Purpula wants to make a trade, it's just that the double chin won't let him....gets in the way.


but no, seriously, I think part of it might be that Purpula is a yes man, and the other half is his roots as a system guy.  I think he was perfectly content to call up some of his minor leaguers and see what they were capable of after we got shut out of the market b/c of Beltran(see 2005).  On that same token, I think this year's FA market has been decidedly mediocre, and Purpula decided not to overpay.

I think it is a smart move, since Bagwell's money comes off the books after this season, we'll have about 18M to play with next offseason when some more premium FA's become available.  Let's not roast him quite yet....what is he supposed to do when the Cubs are throwing 16M at Jacque Jones for 3 years?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2005, 11:22:27 am »
You get no such benefit. You're full of shit.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2005, 11:25:04 am »
No, he has to do something.  Even something stupid, just for the sake of saying he's done something. Only constant activity will make him a better than shitty GM.  Stupid puppet.

On the other hand, he is "fucking useless."

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2005, 11:37:50 am »
Quote:

I think it is a smart move, since Bagwell's money comes off the books after this season, we'll have about 18M to play with next offseason when some more premium FA's become available.  Let's not roast him quite yet....what is he supposed to do when the Cubs are throwing 16M at Jacque Jones for 3 years?



As this point, I'm wondering if the Astros would not be better off seeing how things stand at the trade deadline next year.  There's often better value to be had, and at that point they'll know where Bagwell stands (or sits).  His ability to play 1B is a huge question mark that won't be answered until ST or later.  It's hard to fill gaps when you don't know where your gaps are!
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2005, 11:44:12 am »
Quote:

No, he has to do something.  Even something stupid, just for the sake of saying he's done something. Only constant activity will make him a better than shitty GM.  Stupid puppet.

On the other hand, he is "fucking useless."





Thanks for agreeing with me.

No but seriously, out of curiosity, since Purpura has taken over, how may players have been added to the MLB roster
25 or 40 from outside the organization?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2005, 11:48:07 am »
Quote:

Quote:

No, he has to do something.  Even something stupid, just for the sake of saying he's done something. Only constant activity will make him a better than shitty GM.  Stupid puppet.

On the other hand, he is "fucking useless."





Thanks for agreeing with me.

No but seriously, out of curiosity, since Purpura has taken over, how may players have been added to the MLB roster
25 or 40 from outside the organization?




I believe the answer is 1, John Franco.  Of what significance is that little factoid?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2005, 12:20:41 pm »
I think we just did this.  I can think of a number of things that Mclane did that Hunsicker didn't agree with.   I can also think of a couple of transactons where Mclane gave Hunsicker a free hand. Did Hunsicker all of a sudden  feel stiffled in pre season 05?  I can think of one public incident that went completely against what Hunsicker wanted, it didnt happen in 05.  Can you? (no, not Clemens)  Why didnt Hunsicker quit earlier?

otterj

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2005, 12:49:02 pm »
Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2005, 12:55:16 pm »
Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2005, 01:09:41 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.






Just curious again. What is your idea of a stupid move?

For me almost any move that requires Lidge to be involved.
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pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2005, 01:20:30 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.





Just curious again. What is your idea of a stupid move?

For me almost any move that requires Lidge to be involved.




Any move done merely to appease witless fans who think trades and signings are what wins ballgames.  Also, any deal done purely to prove some macho bullshit of "who's in charge".

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2005, 01:27:19 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.





Just curious again. What is your idea of a stupid move?

For me almost any move that requires Lidge to be involved.




Any move done merely to appease witless fans who think trades and signings are what wins ballgames.  Also, any deal done purely to prove some macho bullshit of "who's in charge".




Come on you can do it...

I'll go first, Lidge for Tejada is a stupid move, in my opinion.

Now your turn...
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2005, 01:34:59 pm »
How about any move that harms the team more than it helps it?

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2005, 01:37:03 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.





Just curious again. What is your idea of a stupid move?

For me almost any move that requires Lidge to be involved.




Any move done merely to appease witless fans who think trades and signings are what wins ballgames.  Also, any deal done purely to prove some macho bullshit of "who's in charge".




Come on you can do it...

I'll go first, Lidge for Tejada is a stupid move, in my opinion.

Now your turn...




Nope, I dont play this game.  The Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2005, 01:39:43 pm »


Nope, I dont play this game.  The Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.




Because it's easier to blast other people's ideas and opinions?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2005, 01:43:57 pm »
Quote:

Just curious again. What is your idea of a stupid move?

For me almost any move that requires Lidge to be involved.





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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2005, 01:46:15 pm »
Quote:

How about any move that harms the team more than it helps it?




ooh, you really put yourself out there.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2005, 01:47:28 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.





The extension doesn't look like such a bad deal now... It's hindsight, of course, but the addition of Moyer and Winn would make this club ready for 2006, IMO at least...
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otterj

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2005, 01:47:46 pm »
[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.




Tow that company line.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2005, 01:48:16 pm »
Because it's more appropriate, actually.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2005, 02:24:10 pm »
Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.




Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2005, 02:29:39 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok, so the 'puppet' part was dramatic hyberbole.

Purpura's non-moves last year had virtually nothing to do with a World Series birth. The manager and the players did.

When the GM of the clan gets attacked, the reactions will be as such.

Just waiting on the, "exciting things" to come.





The non move that Purpura made was to not give Jamie Moyer an extension when he had the deal done, for Moyer and Winn. Not exactly sure what the Astros were giving up.  But the deal would have happened if Moyer hadnt nixed it.  He has since re-signed with Seattle for 1 year, 5.5.  Everyone is waiting to see what the Astros do, I think everyone is also hoping it's not something stupid.  This cult of the GM as star that has grown up is silly.  It has always been the players that win.




The extension doesn't look like such a bad deal now... It's hindsight, of course, but the addition of Moyer and Winn would make this club ready for 2006, IMO at least...




No, it doesn't.  5.5 is cheap in this market and he's gone 200 or more innings in 7 of the past 9 seasons.  Winn provided a lot of offense for the Giants after he settled.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 02:32:51 pm »
Quote:



Nope, I dont play this game.  The Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.





Because it's easier to blast other people's ideas and opinions?




It's very easy to "blast" stupid opinions.  And the opinion that a GM is worth only who he trades for is a stupid opinion.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2005, 03:04:33 pm »
Just thought of another non-move, not signing Jeremy Burnitz to play center.  And a move, trading Tim Redding for Humberto Quintero.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2005, 03:09:37 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

How about any move that harms the team more than it helps it?




ooh, you really put yourself out there.





What exactly are you trying to do here?  I'm don't understand the point of speculating which trades would be stupid for the Astros to make.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2005, 03:10:16 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.





Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.




Blind support of anything (except maybe family) is never
a good thing. And it does not make you a better fan.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2005, 03:17:57 pm »
I see. Once you woo this internet board to your way of thinking (which is going well, by the way), we'll all storm over to the Astros front office with torches and demand Pup's head on a stick.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2005, 03:20:24 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.





Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.




Blind support of anything (except maybe family) is never
a good thing. And it does not make you a better fan.




Blind support?  You're assuming quite a bit.  And, I never pretended to be a "better fan".  Is this what you aspire to?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2005, 03:26:19 pm »
Quote:

I see. Once you woo this internet board to your way of thinking (which is going well, by the way), we'll all storm over to the Astros front office with torches and demand Pup's head on a stick.




No, but if we start having a debate about who the best fan is, then what's next cock size? It's about as ridiculous as: I have more Astros jerseys and baseball cards, so I'm the better fan!
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2005, 03:27:51 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

I see. Once you woo this internet board to your way of thinking (which is going well, by the way), we'll all storm over to the Astros front office with torches and demand Pup's head on a stick.




No, but if we start having a debate about who the best fan is, then what's next cock size? It's about as ridiculous as: I have more Astros jerseys and baseball cards, so I'm the better fan!





Where is this debate you're referring to?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2005, 03:28:20 pm »
...Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.





You're NOT trying to say you're a better fan?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2005, 03:28:55 pm »
Quote:

...Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.





You're NOT trying to say you a better fan?




Read it again... he's saying he's a fan of the Astros, not a fan of you.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2005, 03:31:55 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.





Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.




That's comical. Did I ask you to be a fan of me? Absurd also.

This is a MESSAGE BOARD. People can post whatever opinion they have at the time. If it's stupid it gets shot down, ouila, the process continues. To stick your nose up in the air, pompously declaring yourself above all fan opinions and lead the charge in the Houston Astro Chamber of Commerce movement is funny. You provide great info to this board, but the perception you have of yourself is funny.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2005, 03:32:18 pm »
Quote:

...Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.





You're NOT trying to say you're a better fan?




No. How would you even measure something like that?  I think I pay more attention to the Astros than some.  I try to keep my fantasies in check and focus on what the Astros are doing instead of what I wish they would do.  I try to watch the game for what it is. Better fan?  That's ridiculous.  Smarter and more informed fan than some? Oh hell yes.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2005, 03:34:20 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

...Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.






You're NOT trying to say you a better fan?




Read it again... he's saying he's a fan of the Astros, not a fan of you.




Oh! Ok edit that to say... Blind support is never good.
Which was my main point anyway.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2005, 03:37:56 pm »
Blind faith or support isn't the issue. The irrationality of people whining about Tim Purpura just two months after the Astros made the World Series for the first time is the issue.

Like it or not, Purpura was general manager of the Astros for the 11 months proceeding that first World Series berth. The team may have borne Hunsicker's imprint, but it bore Purpura's as well.

Purpura was in charge when Beltran left and the Astros promoted Taveras to take his place. Purpura was in charge when Kent left and the Astros moved Biggio back to second to take his place.

Purpura was in charge when the Astros decided to give Lane the full-time started job in right field. Purpura was in charge when the Astros signed Oswalt through 2006 and Berkman through 2010.

Purpura was in charge when the Astros did not acquire another bat when Berkman missed the first month and Bagwell missed the middle four months of 2005. Purpura was in charge when the Astros stuck with starting Ensberg full-time instead of reverting to a platoon when Ensberg struggled in April.

Purpura was in charge when the Astros kept the team together after a 15-30 start and did not make a move when they had reached the wild card lead by the trade deadline. Purpura was in charge when the Astros beat the Braves and the Cardinals to get to the White Sox, and he was in charge when they got swept when the offense shut down.

If you want to deny Purpura credit for having anything to do with the Astros winning the pennant, fine, but then it's irrational to complain and fault him for anything he did last season while the Astros made that playoff run. You can't deny him credit on one hand and then bitch about him on the other hand.

And it's irrational to complain about this off-season so far, since we're only half-way into it. If opening day rolls around and you want to piss and moan because Bagwell can't play and Berkman is at first base and Luke Scott and Chris Burke are sharing left field, fine. If you want to complain because Clemens signs somewhere else and the back of the rotation is Astacio and Rodriguez, fine.

But I'd rather that the Astros go into next season with the team as presently constituted than do something stupid that would cost the team in the long run, like trading away a valuable commodity or signing middle-of-the-rotation pitchers and bullpen help to contracts approaching $10 million per year.

And I'm realistic enough to understand that not every good free agent signing or trade out there was a missed opportunity that the Astros could've converted were Purpura not incompetent. Every time any desirable free agent goes on the market or sexy trade rumor is dangled, somebody here will post a "how come the Astros don't get him?" thread, as if there aren't 29 other teams in baseball vying to build their teams too.

Regardless of the opinions on Purpura or the impatience expressed in here, on talk radio and in the pages of the Chronicle, none of us, from McLane to Purpura to Garner on down to the biggest whining fan, will know until opening day precisely what the roster is going to look like, and we're not going to know until next fall whether it worked or whether it fell short.

The day somebody comes in here with a report that there was a good trade or signing on the table for the Astros and Purpura somehow blew it, I'll be willing to concede that it's something more than whining. Until then, that's all it is, so don't expect people to be sympathetic to it.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2005, 03:38:53 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.





Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.




That's comical. Did I ask you to be a fan of me? Absurd also.

This is a MESSAGE BOARD. People can post whatever opinion they have at the time. If it's stupid it gets shot down, ouila, the process continues. To stick your nose up in the air, pompously declaring yourself above all fan opinions and lead the charge in the Houston Astro Chamber of Commerce movement is funny. You provide great info to this board, but the perception you have of yourself is funny.




Have I stifled your ability to write your opinion?  What's funny is that you're so attached to your own opinions that being presented with information that contradicts them you feel threatened.  You wrote your opinion, I detailed why it was wrong, now is the moving on part.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2005, 03:39:56 pm »
...Smarter and more informed fan than some? Oh hell yes.





Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.

Baseball is a game, it should be fun.
Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2005, 03:47:16 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

[quoteThe Astros are trying to obtain a leftfielder and a starting pitcher.  I dont need to whine and spin until they do, or not, either way.




Tow that company line.




Is that how you think? Really? We all have a choice to make, keep up with and try to understand what the Astros are doing and why; or create fantasies in our head and prefer those to reality.  Since I'm a fan of the Astros and not you, or anyone like you, I prefer to follow the Astros.




That's comical. Did I ask you to be a fan of me? Absurd also.

This is a MESSAGE BOARD. People can post whatever opinion they have at the time. If it's stupid it gets shot down, ouila, the process continues. To stick your nose up in the air, pompously declaring yourself above all fan opinions and lead the charge in the Houston Astro Chamber of Commerce movement is funny. You provide great info to this board, but the perception you have of yourself is funny.




Have I stifled your ability to write your opinion?  What's funny is that you're so attached to your own opinions that being presented with information that contradicts them you feel threatened.  You wrote your opinion, I detailed why it was wrong, now is the moving on part.




Wowza. Way to distort the point. Moving on...

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2005, 03:48:58 pm »
Quote:

...Smarter and more informed fan than some? Oh hell yes.





Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.

Baseball is a game, it should be fun.




expect to hear:

They should do whatever it is they end up doing.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2005, 03:48:59 pm »
Quote:

...Smarter and more informed fan than some? Oh hell yes.





Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.

Baseball is a game, it should be fun.




Anything specific I would say on that would be misinformed.  I don't know the details nor the constraints.  What did the Astros see in Rondell White's x-rays that didnt bother the Twins?  I have no idea.  That's what I mean by smarter, I dont write about things I have no idea about.  I would like for the Astros to put players on the field who arent jerks.  I think I would find a different hobby if they had guys like M.Bradley and Piazza out there, no matter how many games they win.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2005, 03:50:10 pm »
Quote:

Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.

Baseball is a game, it should be fun.





True, and that's why this isn't about who's the best fan, but about what's perceived as unreasonable and incessant complaining about the team.

I don't doubt that you're upset precisely because you want the Astros to win, just like everyone else here does.  But I just can't see how gnashing your teeth halfway into the offseason is doing anybody any good.  It gets that way during the season when the team starts losing.  The frontrunners come in and start wailing that the sky is falling.

There is nothing less fun about following baseball than coming to a community of fans and hearing them piss and moan.  This isn't a matter of my team, right or wrong!  It's a matter of having reasonable expectations and appreciating your team enough not to villify the general manager because two months after the making its first World Series, the team hasn't remedied all its deficiencies.

Blue Jays, Mets and Dodgers fans may have a lot to be pleased about thus far this offseason, but would you trade places with them given what the Astros did last season and could still do next season?

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2005, 03:52:23 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

...Smarter and more informed fan than some? Oh hell yes.






Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.

Baseball is a game, it should be fun.




expect to hear:

They should do whatever it is they end up doing.




Not very likely.  I'm not as enamoured of my own opinion as some.  How about asking instead of, what would I do?, (as if that sheds any light) why did they do what they did?

Andyzipp

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2005, 03:54:44 pm »
Quote:



Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.






Perhaps this needs to be an FAQ somewhere.  pravata doesn't deal in his own opinion on this board. (Or I should say, rarely does.)  
He does focus on what's going on and the reasoning behind it.  He will, from time to time, post factual evidence to counter ridiculous opinions.  And more often, he will chastize individuals for thinking their opinions are more informed, valuable, or just plain correct than that of Astros management.

He operates not under the illusion that the Astros Front Office is infalable, but under the reality that they are indeed the decision makers.  Understanding why they're doing what they do, rather than contemplating what they should be doing is his self-appointed role on this board.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2005, 03:56:23 pm »
Quote:

Expect to hear:

They should do whatever it is they end up doing.





Let me ask you why you gave the benefit of the doubt up until you started this thread, leading to a re-hash of arguments that have erupted the last few weeks?  What is it that's different about right now, or last week, or a month ago, or three months from now, that has all of a sudden made you withdraw your previous forbearance?

That's what I don't get.  Geez, we're not even to Christmas yet, and the offseason's already being declared a failure. Why? Because they haven't signed B.J. Ryan or A.J. Burnett for $9 million?  Because they didn't nab Garciaparra or White in case they need a spare left fielder?  Because they got swept by the White Sox two months ago?

I would think that was when the bitching would commence, blaming Purpura for not bolstering the offense leading into the postseason.  Or that the bitching would wait until the start of the season, when Burke and Scott share left field again with Bagwell on the bench and Berkman at first, or Clemens having signed elsewhere, leaving Astacio and Rodriguez in the rotation.

What is it about the week or two before Christmas that out of nowhere became the litmus test for Purpura's competence as a general manager?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2005, 03:58:11 pm »
Quote:

Blind faith or support isn't the issue. The irrationality of people whining about Tim Purpura just two months after the Astros made the World Series for the first time is the issue.

..........................................................

What the Astros did last year has nothing to do with this year.

Astros needed more offense last year AND this year.

Now, Clemens may be gone for good, you can't replace him,
so where can you improve? Left field. And if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.

In any business a manager is expected to improve on the
current situation, if he doesn't he is labeled useless
and is replaced.

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get
something done.
Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2005, 03:59:44 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



Probably true, so it might benefit those of us who are
less inform (I mean me) to hear your opinions on what
the Astros should do or not do to put the best team
on the field. All things considered.






Perhaps this needs to be an FAQ somewhere.  pravata doesn't deal in his own opinion on this board. (Or I should say, rarely does.)  
He does focus on what's going on and the reasoning behind it.  He will, from time to time, post factual evidence to counter ridiculous opinions.  And more often, he will chastize individuals for thinking their opinions are more informed, valuable, or just plain correct than that of Astros management.

He operates not under the illusion that the Astros Front Office is infalable, but under the reality that they are indeed the decision makers.  Understanding why they're doing what they do, rather than contemplating what they should be doing is his self-appointed role on this board.





Better be self appointed cause if someone gave me the job I wouldnt take it.  I can't help myself, when I come to board about the Astros I have this overwhelming urge to follow the Astros, not the fantasies of the fans of the Astros.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2005, 03:59:58 pm »
He also understands that our bitching about it isn't going to affect what they do, nor should it.

Andyzipp

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2005, 04:02:25 pm »
Quote:



..........................................................

What the Astros did last year has nothing to do with this year.

Astros needed more offense last year AND this year.

Now, Clemens may be gone for good, you can't replace him,
so where can you improve? Left field. And if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.

In any business a manager is expected to improve on the
current situation, if he doesn't he is labeled useless
and is replaced.

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get
something done.





If I may, the umbrage that some are taking with your supposition is that because you seem to be implying that because Purpura hasn't signed a left fielder to this point, he will never sign a left fielder.  So he's worthless, because you believe that left field should be the easiest spot to improve, based on the lack of talent at that spot in 2005 and currently.

Many of us believe that Purpura has a timeline with an enddate that is much further out than yours.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2005, 04:03:13 pm »
I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get something done.

Fine. Finished?
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I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2005, 04:04:40 pm »
Quote:

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get something done.

Fine. Finished?





I was going to say "Or What?"
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2005, 04:09:29 pm »
Quote:

What the Astros did last year has nothing to do with this year.

Astros needed more offense last year AND this year.

Now, Clemens may be gone for good, you can't replace him,
so where can you improve? Left field. And if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.

In any business a manager is expected to improve on the
current situation, if he doesn't he is labeled useless
and is replaced.

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get
something done.





But last year the lack of offense didn't prevent them from making the World Series, although you might argue that it prevented them from winning the World Series. But then you've got to figure out what they would've given up to bolster the offense last season, and whether that would've prevented them from making the World Series.

Point being, the criticisms you're now deploying against Purpura as so fatal to his competence and performance could've just as easily been used against him last offseason, and in fact were used against him last offseason and all last season, and yet they won the pennant.

Now, I'm a big believer in the statitical probabilities that lightning won't strike twice, but I think you do have to consider whether Purpura's non-moves are not incompetence or unwillingness to improve, but rather a strategy different from Hunsicker's of relying on what you've got to get you through rather than taking the risk of making things worse unless you're sure a move is a good one.

We already recognize that Purpura is much more willing than Hunsicker to depend on young talent than on moves for veterans to produce results.  Maybe Purpura will be burned by that approach, but he's done OK so far with it.

By the way, why does the fire need to be lit at this moment?  Is there something that makes a move in December necessarily better than a move in February?  Is there something wrong with taking a more cautious approach rather than a rasher one?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2005, 04:10:06 pm »
Quote:

... if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.





But what if the best way to improve LF were to trade Lidge for... I don't know... Bobby Abreu?

You've already defined "stupid move" as anything involving Brad Lidge as a non-Astro... so if the only better options out there are horribly overpriced (ie Jones) or require giving up Lidge via trade, then is objective reality making Purpura useless to you?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2005, 04:11:39 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Expect to hear:

They should do whatever it is they end up doing.





Let me ask you why you gave the benefit of the doubt up until you started this thread, leading to a re-hash of arguments that have erupted the last few weeks?  What is it that's different about right now, or last week, or a month ago, or three months from now, that has all of a sudden made you withdraw your previous forbearance?

That's what I don't get.  Geez, we're not even to Christmas yet, and the offseason's already being declared a failure. Why? Because they haven't signed B.J. Ryan or A.J. Burnett for $9 million?  Because they didn't nab Garciaparra or White in case they need a spare left fielder?  Because they got swept by the White Sox two months ago?

I would think that was when the bitching would commence, blaming Purpura for not bolstering the offense leading into the postseason.  Or that the bitching would wait until the start of the season, when Burke and Scott share left field again with Bagwell on the bench and Berkman at first, or Clemens having signed elsewhere, leaving Astacio and Rodriguez in the rotation.

What is it about the week or two before Christmas that out of nowhere became the litmus test for Purpura's competence as a general manager?





Purpura has done a good job of not messing up. He just hasn't done anything constructive yet to add the offense, which McLane himself said was the top priority and that money was not an issue.

There was no specific timing reason for the post, I'm just getting frustrated as a fan.

moving on...

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2005, 04:11:44 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Blind faith or support isn't the issue. The irrationality of people whining about Tim Purpura just two months after the Astros made the World Series for the first time is the issue.

..........................................................

What the Astros did last year has nothing to do with this year.

Astros needed more offense last year AND this year.

Now, Clemens may be gone for good, you can't replace him,
so where can you improve? Left field. And if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.

In any business a manager is expected to improve on the
current situation, if he doesn't he is labeled useless
and is replaced.

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get
something done.








Are you ignoring the part where they are trying to?  Are you ignoring that everyone in the organization (except Garner, who is polishing his own version of the St Crispian's day) has publicly said that they are excited about deals in progress?  If they don't get something done it wont be for lack of trying.  And, I havent seen anyone promising more than that.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2005, 04:14:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:



..........................................................

What the Astros did last year has nothing to do with this year.

Astros needed more offense last year AND this year.

Now, Clemens may be gone for good, you can't replace him,
so where can you improve? Left field. And if Purpura
can't figure out a way to improve last season's feeble
excuse for a Left field, then YES he is useless AS A GM.

In any business a manager is expected to improve on the
current situation, if he doesn't he is labeled useless
and is replaced.

I'm not saying replace him now. But get in gear and get
something done.





If I may, the umbrage that some are taking with your supposition is that because you seem to be implying that because Purpura hasn't signed a left fielder to this point, he will never sign a left fielder.  So he's worthless, because you believe that left field should be the easiest spot to improve, based on the lack of talent at that spot in 2005 and currently.

Many of us believe that Purpura has a timeline with an enddate that is much further out than yours.






Thankyou! This is the most rational and intellegent
post yet. Although it is a little conservative for
my taste, but, I can see that.

AND just to re-iderate I do NOT want to see the
Astros make a big splash that may hurt the future.

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving
up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.
Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2005, 04:15:12 pm »
Quote:

He also understands that our bitching about it isn't going to affect what they do, nor should it.




Pray god.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2005, 04:18:08 pm »
Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





To address the first part... reports have the Rangers asking for top pitching in exchange for Mench or Wilkerson.

Jason Hirsh for Kevin Mench... deal or no deal?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2005, 04:19:00 pm »
Quote:

Purpura has done a good job of not messing up. He just hasn't done anything constructive yet to add the offense, which McLane himself said was the top priority and that money was not an issue.




If you do a good job of not messing up, and, voila, there's a pennant, I would say there's something to that.  Maybe his thought process is different than yours about constructively improving the offense.  He's got to compare at least the following possibilities:

(1) Bagwell can play. Berkman in left.

(2) Bagwell can't play. Lamb at first. Berkman in left.

(3) Bagwell can't play. Berkman at first. Burke/Scott in left.

(4) Bagwell can't play. Berkman at first. Free agent in left (weigh salary costs detracting from club's other priorities).

(5) Bagwell can't play. Berkman at first. Trade acquisition in left (weigh player and salary costs detracting from club's other priorities).

And on top of that, he's got to consider competing against 29 other teams for (4) and (5).  It's not like he can just take any potential free agent or trade acquisition in left field, do the analysis against (1), (2) and (3), and then say, "OK, I'll take that one right there," and then it's just done.

Quote:

There was no specific timing reason for the post, I'm just getting frustrated as a fan.




Thanks for sharing that frustration with the rest of us.  Don't be surprised if we're more patient and thus can't understand where you're coming from.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2005, 04:26:55 pm »
Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





You state this as fact.  It isn't.  As a matter of fact, there is solid documentation of Toronto backing out of talks with Texas over Mench or Wilkerson, with the parting comments indicate Texas is looking at only PREMIUM pitching for either of those guys.  

Tampa is no longer run by Lamar, although you'd have a hard time believing that given the lack of movement on Tampa's side.  I suspect someone realized how much talent they got and how young it is.  They have all the time in the world and no reason to move Gomes or Huff until they feel damn certain their young'uns (Young and Upton) are ready.  Until then, they don't know what pieces they can use in a trade.  The only thing lacking on the Rays is pitching....
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2005, 04:28:01 pm »
Quote:

Thankyou! This is the most rational and intellegent
post yet. Although it is a little conservative for
my taste, but, I can see that.

AND just to re-iderate I do NOT want to see the
Astros make a big splash that may hurt the future.

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving
up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





The Rangers are supposedly asking for frontline (and I mean Backe or better) starting pitching for Mench & Wilkerson.

I wasn't personally aware that Huff or Gomes were available.  What do we have that TB should want?  I'm curious because I don't see a match.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2005, 04:30:11 pm »
Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





Are you proposing to trade Lane for Mench or Wilkerson?  Because I don't see that as an improvement.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2005, 04:37:33 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





Are you proposing to trade Lane for Mench or Wilkerson?  Because I don't see that as an improvement.





No. If they traded for one of these guys and Bagwell
can play, Lane may be the odd man out.

Gomes has the most up-side, but for Backe?
How about Qualls, Astacio and one of the top pitching
prospects.
Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress.

pravata

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2005, 04:37:34 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





You state this as fact.  It isn't.  As a matter of fact, there is solid documentation of Toronto backing out of talks with Texas over Mench or Wilkerson, with the parting comments indicate Texas is looking at only PREMIUM pitching for either of those guys.  

Tampa is no longer run by Lamar, although you'd have a hard time believing that given the lack of movement on Tampa's side.  I suspect someone realized how much talent they got and how young it is.  They have all the time in the world and no reason to move Gomes or Huff until they feel damn certain their young'uns (Young and Upton) are ready.  Until then, they don't know what pieces they can use in a trade.  The only thing lacking on the Rays is pitching....





They got that Hunsicker guy over there now. He's useless.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2005, 04:49:43 pm »
Quote:

No. If they traded for one of these guys and Bagwell
can play, Lane may be the odd man out.

Gomes has the most up-side, but for Backe?
How about Qualls, Astacio and one of the top pitching
prospects.





I doubt the Devil Rays would trade him.  Why would they?

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2005, 04:53:59 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





You state this as fact.  It isn't.  As a matter of fact, there is solid documentation of Toronto backing out of talks with Texas over Mench or Wilkerson, with the parting comments indicate Texas is looking at only PREMIUM pitching for either of those guys.  

Tampa is no longer run by Lamar, although you'd have a hard time believing that given the lack of movement on Tampa's side.  I suspect someone realized how much talent they got and how young it is.  They have all the time in the world and no reason to move Gomes or Huff until they feel damn certain their young'uns (Young and Upton) are ready.  Until then, they don't know what pieces they can use in a trade.  The only thing lacking on the Rays is pitching....




They got that Hunsicker guy over there now. He's useless.




I left that out as Friedman is, officially, running the show.  I'd stay away from any deal with Tampa given Hunsicker's knowledge of the Houston organization.  That level of knowledge, alone, weakens Houston's position.

Besides, isn't Hunsicker the guy who took advantage of his son in-law while he was in Detroit (the infamous Ausmus + pitching for Melusky + pieces and then the return trade)?  If he'll do that to family, there's no telling what he'd try to do to Houston, assuming there's any substance to the claims of hard feelings between Hunsicker and the current mgmt.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2005, 05:02:16 pm »
If you guys would like to blame someone, since it is such a popular sentiment around here, blame the owners for losing their minds this offseason.

You can say everyone is doing it, we should too, but eventually these overpaid contracts to non star players will have to correct themselves or teams will have serious budget issues.

Rondell White is coming off a 2 year 6 million dollar contract(3 mil per), and an injury that allowed him to only play 97 games last season.   He should get a salary decline right? Nope, he gets a bump to 3.25 million, with another 3 mil plus based on 400 plate appearances, and other incentives in a 2nd year vesting option.   He also gets to DH in minnesota, which he can't do here.

Reggie Sanders at age 38, gets a 2 year 10 million dollar contract.   I don't know about you, but 2 years for a 38 year old is really iffy at best.  

Kenny Lofton got a 1 year 3.85 million dollar contract.   With all these contracts, it seems the Nomar deal was beyond reasonable, and that's depressingly sad.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2005, 05:04:14 pm »
Quote:

Reggie Sanders at age 38, gets a 2 year 10 million dollar contract.   I don't know about you, but 2 years for a 38 year old is really iffy at best.  






I agree.

Love,
Craig Biggio

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2005, 05:09:30 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mench/Wilkerson/Huff/Gomes can help you NOW, without giving up TOO much and help you down the road. I just don't
see Lane getting much better.





You state this as fact.  It isn't.  As a matter of fact, there is solid documentation of Toronto backing out of talks with Texas over Mench or Wilkerson, with the parting comments indicate Texas is looking at only PREMIUM pitching for either of those guys.  

Tampa is no longer run by Lamar, although you'd have a hard time believing that given the lack of movement on Tampa's side.  I suspect someone realized how much talent they got and how young it is.  They have all the time in the world and no reason to move Gomes or Huff until they feel damn certain their young'uns (Young and Upton) are ready.  Until then, they don't know what pieces they can use in a trade.  The only thing lacking on the Rays is pitching....




They got that Hunsicker guy over there now. He's useless.




I left that out as Friedman is, officially, running the show.  I'd stay away from any deal with Tampa given Hunsicker's knowledge of the Houston organization.  That level of knowledge, alone, weakens Houston's position.

Besides, isn't Hunsicker the guy who took advantage of his son in-law while he was in Detroit (the infamous Ausmus + pitching for Melusky + pieces and then the return trade)?  If he'll do that to family, there's no telling what he'd try to do to Houston, assuming there's any substance to the claims of hard feelings between Hunsicker and the current mgmt.




That was Tal Smith and son Randy that created the Tigers-Astros connection.   All these young GMs have their minders, Hunsicker is the Senior VP of Baseball Operations and works "closely" with Friedman.  Hunsicker's knowledge of the Astros system might work in the Astros favor.  It's sometimes hard to convince another team of a minor league players ability if they havent studied them for awhile.  Especially pitchers.  However, Rays rumors aren't mentioning Astros deals. see The Link

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2005, 05:09:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Reggie Sanders at age 38, gets a 2 year 10 million dollar contract.   I don't know about you, but 2 years for a 38 year old is really iffy at best.  






I agree.

Love,
Craig Biggio





Well it was iffy for Craig at the time, but he also was a franchise icon and we know how Drayton feels about that.  Reggie Sanders is not.  Sanders also really wanted a 3 year deal, but thankfully the GM's around baseball had some modicum of common sense not to grant it to him.   I also ignored all the hideous pitching deals, and Jacque Jones getting 3 years 16 million dollars as well.  

I thought things couldn't get worse after last year when the DBacks threw out all that money at Glaus.  Boy, I was wrong.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2005, 05:50:55 pm »
It is dificult for me to criticize the Astros for their moves. I did so last year and they go to the World Series. I do however, wonder if Drayton is getting unrealistic in what they want to accomplish this year.

Is the fact that we just went to a World Series hurting us? I know this sounds crazy but, is it possible to try too hard to improve on this accomplishment. I think Astrocreep is correct in his point to do something, rather than nothing.

I am not a big fan of White, Burnitz, Alfonseca, Bernie Williams, Paul Quantrill, or even Sosa. but getting one of these players doesnt cost us a prospect or much money. So as much as I agree with Pravata about letting the Astros take care of the Astros, or the examples of good and bad choices of the last offseason from Arky. I have to wonder, now that most of the good choices (relative term) are gone. What can they do without losing their coveted players.

So far it is Ashby for 2 minor league prospects. Not exactly what I had in mind AS A FAN.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2005, 06:06:51 pm »
I would have liked White, but he got 3.25 mil with a lucrative vesting option if he gets 400 Plate appearances.  

Not to mention, he can DH in Minnesota, but can't here.   I didn't expect a guy coming off a major injury and a 3 mil contract to get a raise, and an easily attainable vesting option considering the twins will use him at DH.

And you do not make moves just to say we made moves.   If the move is not right, I'd rather not have to correct that mistake later than to just win the PR battle.

Right now, I don't know how much Burnitz, Encarnacion, Wilson or even lower options like Corky will cost, but the fact that kenny lofton got 3.85 million dollars from the dodgers is a bad sign for teams pursuing those players.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2005, 06:08:54 pm »
Quote:

It is dificult for me to criticize the Astros for their moves. I did so last year and they go to the World Series. I do however, wonder if Drayton is getting unrealistic in what they want to accomplish this year.

Is the fact that we just went to a World Series hurting us? I know this sounds crazy but, is it possible to try too hard to improve on this accomplishment. I think Astrocreep is correct in his point to do something, rather than nothing.

I am not a big fan of White, Burnitz, Alfonseca, Bernie Williams, Paul Quantrill, or even Sosa. but getting one of these players doesnt cost us a prospect or much money. So as much as I agree with Pravata about letting the Astros take care of the Astros, or the examples of good and bad choices of the last offseason from Arky. I have to wonder, now that most of the good choices (relative term) are gone. What can they do without losing their coveted players.

So far it is Ashby for 2 minor league prospects. Not exactly what I had in mind AS A FAN.





How is that Mclane is unrealistic, and we as a fan aren't?  The money is there, the effort is there, the choices, as you mention, aren't very good.  At this point there is probably no acquisition that will have an impact in which the Astros dont lose a player we think essential.  It's how it works.  How is it that not having produced an acquisition, in this climate, is cause for undue criticism?  (As opposed to speculation.)

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2005, 06:12:39 pm »
Quote:

Right now, I don't know how much Burnitz, Encarnacion, Wilson or even lower options like Corky will cost, but the fact that kenny lofton got 3.85 million dollars from the dodgers is a bad sign for teams pursuing those players.




At least $6 million for any of them, I'd guess.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2005, 06:17:33 pm »
Quote:

How is that Mclane is unrealistic, and we as a fan aren't?  The money is there, the effort is there, the choices, as you mention, aren't very good.  At this point there is probably no acquisition that will have an impact in which the Astros dont lose a player we think essential.  It's how it works.  How is it that not having produced an acquisition, in this climate, is cause for undue criticism?  (As opposed to speculation.)




Remaining free-agent outfielders:

Jeff Conine, 39
Denny Hocking, 35
Todd Hollandsworth, 32
Brian Jordan, 38
Eli Marrero, 32
B.J. Surhoff, 41
Preston Wilson, 31
Danny Bautista, 33
Jeromy Burnitz, 36
Juan Encarnacion, 29
Juan Gonzalez, 36
Jeffrey Hammonds, 34
Richard Hidalgo, 30
Bobby Higginson, 35
Matt Lawton, 34
Sammy Sosa, 37
Michael Tucket, 34
Gerald Williams, 39

There's a lot of old guys on that list.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2005, 06:27:36 pm »
What I was trying to say was that maybe the team cant be improved this year via a trade. We have to give up something good to get something good. It might be different come All Star break time but right now, all teams are in first place.

Where I agree with Astrocreep is, getting a Burnitz or someone like him through free agency does not hurt us and IMO, though some would disagree, I think Burnitz would be an upgrade to Lane.

At this point getting rid of Lidge to fix another area may not be the solution we want.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2005, 06:31:28 pm »
Quote:

What I was trying to say was that maybe the team cant be improved this year via a trade. We have to give up something good to get something good. It might be different come All Star break time but right now, all teams are in first place.

Where I agree with Astrocreep is, getting a Burnitz or someone like him through free agency does not hurt us and IMO, though some would disagree, I think Burnitz would be an upgrade to Lane.

At this point getting rid of Lidge to fix another area may not be the solution we want.





Burnitz is as bad at getting on base as Lane, and Lane hits for more power.  Burnitz will cost more than 10, maybe 20 times more than Lane.  I can't see how Burnitz is a better option.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2005, 06:39:53 pm »
Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better. And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2005, 06:44:02 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Right now, I don't know how much Burnitz, Encarnacion, Wilson or even lower options like Corky will cost, but the fact that kenny lofton got 3.85 million dollars from the dodgers is a bad sign for teams pursuing those players.




At least $6 million for any of them, I'd guess.





If that is the case, I hope Bagwell can contribute and see if trade prices come down by ST/midseason.   The only one I'd even maybe consider at that price is Wilson, because he is the best hitter of the bunch, but again I wouldn't pay 6 mil for him.  The others aren't appreciably better than Mike Lamb to make it worth it.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2005, 06:44:41 pm »
3 things:

(1)  Lane can get better if he doesn't have a horrid 1st half.  He's a 270/320/510 hitter.  I'll take that on the cheap for the next 3 years.

(2)  Eric Byrnes?  Anyone want to take a chance on him?

(3)  How about moving Bagwell back to 3B and Biggio back to Catcher?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2005, 06:46:55 pm »
Quote:

Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better. And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.




Lane outperformed Burnitz last season.   Burnitz would only be an option to replace Burke or Lamb, and that makes no sense.   Lamb at 1.7 mil is a better option than Burnitz.  The ideal thing would be either a cheap platoon option, or a hitter better than burnitz.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2005, 06:48:43 pm »
Quote:

(3)  How about moving Bagwell back to 3B and Biggio back to Catcher?




No, Willy to catcher and Biggio back to CF so that Burke can play 2b.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2005, 06:48:44 pm »
Quote:

3 things:

(2)  Eric Byrnes?  Anyone want to take a chance on him?
 





I would take him as a cheap platoon player vs LHP only.   I could live with a lamb/byrnes platoon if Bagwell can't play, with Berkman at 1B if the price is right.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2005, 06:51:47 pm »
Quote:

Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better.




This isn't about upside and about what Lane might do.  It is about what Burnitz and Lane did do last season. If Lane doesn't get any better and plays just as he did last season, he'll still play better than Burnitz did last seaosn. And who's got the better chance of improvement? The 28-year-old or the 36-year-old?  Whose legs are going to be better in the field and on the basepaths?
Player    Avg   OBP   Slg   AB  2B  HR   R  RBI  BB
---------------------------------------------------
Lane     .267  .316  .499  517  34  26  65   78  32
Burnitz  .258  .322  .435  605  31  24  84   87  57
Quote:

And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.




Sure, but if Lance doesn't move to first, then you're stuck with playing Burnitz or Lane part-time.

Edited to fix HR column.  Lane did not hit 65 homers last year.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2005, 06:54:49 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better. And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.




Lane outperformed Burnitz last season.   Burnitz would only be an option to replace Burke or Lamb, and that makes no sense.   Lamb at 1.7 mil is a better option than Burnitz.  The ideal thing would be either a cheap platoon option, or a hitter better than burnitz.





I disagree, it doesnt have to be Burnitz, it could be him or someoone like him. I would rather pay a little more and have a better chance at winning than going with Lamb because he is cheaper. Like I said before, and I hope I am wrong, I dont see Lane improving on this season.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2005, 06:55:07 pm »
Quote:

If that is the case, I hope Bagwell can contribute and see if trade prices come down by ST/midseason.   The only one I'd even maybe consider at that price is Wilson, because he is the best hitter of the bunch, but again I wouldn't pay 6 mil for him.  The others aren't appreciably better than Mike Lamb to make it worth it.




Wilson made $12.5 million last year. He's a 31-year-old center fielder who hit 25 homers and drove in 90 runs last year.  That was Coors-aided, as was his $12.5-million contract in the first place, but I suspect he's going to go higher than $6 million.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2005, 06:56:15 pm »
Quote:

I disagree, it doesnt have to be Burnitz, it could be him or someoone like him. I would rather pay a little more and have a better chance at winning than going with Lamb because he is cheaper. Like I said before, and I hope I am wrong, I dont see Lane improving on this season.




WHAT DOES LANE IMPROVING ON LAST SEASON HAVE TO DO WITH IT? HE ALREADY OUT-HIT BURNITZ LAST YEAR AT THE LEVEL'S HE'S AT.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2005, 06:56:30 pm »
Quote:

What I was trying to say was that maybe the team cant be improved this year via a trade. We have to give up something good to get something good. It might be different come All Star break time but right now, all teams are in first place.

Where I agree with Astrocreep is, getting a Burnitz or someone like him through free agency does not hurt us and IMO, though some would disagree, I think Burnitz would be an upgrade to Lane.

At this point getting rid of Lidge to fix another area may not be the solution we want.






I'm hoping the Astros can find a LF with some future.
Burnitz wouldn't fall into that catagory.

Eric Bynes? I really like his enthusiasn for the game
could Garner and Cooper and Big/Bag help mold him into
a productive player? Might be worth a shot.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2005, 06:56:48 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better.




This isn't about upside and about what Lane might do.  It is about what Burnitz and Lane did do last season. If Lane doesn't get any better and plays just as he did last season, he'll still play better than Burnitz did last seaosn. And who's got the better chance of improvement? The 28-year-old or the 36-year-old?  Whose legs are going to be better in the field and on the basepaths?
Player    Avg   OBP   Slg   AB  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB
---------------------------------------------------
Lane     .267  .316  .499  517  34  26  65   78  32
Burnitz  .258  .322  .435  605  31  24  84   87  57
Quote:

And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.




Sure, but if Lance doesn't move to first, then you're stuck with playing Burnitz or Lane part-time.





Lane hit 65 HRs?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2005, 06:57:43 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

If that is the case, I hope Bagwell can contribute and see if trade prices come down by ST/midseason.   The only one I'd even maybe consider at that price is Wilson, because he is the best hitter of the bunch, but again I wouldn't pay 6 mil for him.  The others aren't appreciably better than Mike Lamb to make it worth it.




Wilson made $12.5 million last year. He's a 31-year-old center fielder who hit 25 homers and drove in 90 runs last year.  That was Coors-aided, as was his $12.5-million contract in the first place, but I suspect he's going to go higher than $6 million.





I wouldn't be expecting him to end up in Houston then, for good reason in my opinion.   If he gets a contract above 6 mil, more power to him, but he won't be worth it.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2005, 06:58:02 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Lane's upside is better and the salary is better, but I am not convinced Lane is going to get much better.




This isn't about upside and about what Lane might do.  It is about what Burnitz and Lane did do last season. If Lane doesn't get any better and plays just as he did last season, he'll still play better than Burnitz did last seaosn. And who's got the better chance of improvement? The 28-year-old or the 36-year-old?  Whose legs are going to be better in the field and on the basepaths?
Player    Avg   OBP   Slg   AB  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB
---------------------------------------------------
Lane     .267  .316  .499  517  34  26  65   78  32
Burnitz  .258  .322  .435  605  31  24  84   87  57
Quote:

And if Lance moves to first, I would rather have Burnitz in left than Burke.




Sure, but if Lance doesn't move to first, then you're stuck with playing Burnitz or Lane part-time.





All, good points... I hope you are right and Lane improves.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2005, 06:58:12 pm »
Lane batted .305/.354/.536 after the All-Star break last season.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2005, 07:00:15 pm »
Quote:

Lane hit 65 HRs?




I wish.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2005, 07:06:09 pm »
Lane had a fine year in 2005.  Pretty good defense.  Nice offense. Cheap.  Upgrading the production from RF is just about the last place I'd start when looking for things to do for the 2006 team.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2005, 07:09:36 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

What I was trying to say was that maybe the team cant be improved this year via a trade. We have to give up something good to get something good. It might be different come All Star break time but right now, all teams are in first place.

Where I agree with Astrocreep is, getting a Burnitz or someone like him through free agency does not hurt us and IMO, though some would disagree, I think Burnitz would be an upgrade to Lane.

At this point getting rid of Lidge to fix another area may not be the solution we want.






I'm hoping the Astros can find a LF with some future.
Burnitz wouldn't fall into that catagory.

Eric Bynes? I really like his enthusiasn for the game
could Garner and Cooper and Big/Bag help mold him into
a productive player? Might be worth a shot.





Why would a free-agent outfielder who expects to start want to sign with Houston when at this point the Astros cannot guarantee that player a starting spot?
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2005, 07:13:28 pm »
I would be looking for someone to start.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2005, 07:16:33 pm »
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I would be looking for someone to start.




Perhaps, but, if Bagwell can play, you'd have to play him.

Also, if you were the free agent, you'd see Bagwell there and KNOW that if he's able play come April, you won't.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2005, 11:55:28 pm »
you are full of shit, and you cannot spell either.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2005, 08:07:05 am »
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you are full of shit, and you cannot spell either.




So are you recommending in the future he use a laxative AND a spell checker?
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #101 on: December 23, 2005, 02:11:24 pm »
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Purpura appears to be a sweaty puppet of McLane, the exact reason that Hunsicker left. Puppet being the operative word.




People can call me ignorant if they want, but I'm a huge believer in Purpura. Seeing as how I probably can't defend that in detail riht now, I will ask otterj this question:

How can you say that you've given Purpura the benefit of the doubt, as your subject line implies?

 Can you honestly say at this point that you?ve given Purpura the benefit of the doubt after 1+ year (a year in which we made the Series)? Besides that, wouldn?t giving Purpura the benefit of the doubt include assuming that Purpura had something to do with the good moves Hun made?

I can only think of one unequivocal criticism I would have for the ?Stros ownership/general management over the past 1+, and that is that anyone who played a part in failing to get Kent back made a mistake in that one area. But even that criticism 1) is very old news and 2) must be mitigated by the fact that we made the World Series without JK.  

But the bottom line is, we have no basis to complain or criticize Purpura yet. If we tank in 2006 and slide into routine mediocrity, I?ll complain. But we?re not close to there yet. And you are certainly not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #102 on: December 23, 2005, 07:11:57 pm »
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you are full of shit, and you cannot spell either.




I know, and, I gnow.

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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #103 on: December 23, 2005, 09:09:35 pm »
I was OK with Kent leaving, Biggio back to second needed to be done, but the way everything turned out, it sure would have been nice to have Kent at 1st.

Would he have made the difference against Chicago?
I would have loved to find out.
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Re: After giving the benefit of doubt...
« Reply #104 on: December 23, 2005, 09:18:36 pm »
Quote:


But the bottom line is, we have no basis to complain or criticize Purpura yet. If we tank in 2006 and slide into routine mediocrity, I?ll complain. But we?re not close to there yet. And you are certainly not giving him the benefit of the doubt.





I would have to agree, there is no basis for us to complain. I know he is aware of the lack of offense. I'm sure he is trying to do something about it. I'm also sure that he is trying to construct and evaluate trades.

I agree with some of those who said, we should not trade just for the sake of trading.

I would say Lane is more efficient in terms of output per cost then a lot of the available free agents. And also, they are quite old as well. And given Astros budget constraint, they should be efficient in spending it on a player.

There is really no FA out there that could have an imediate impact for a reasonable price either.

Like another poster said, we should wait and see and perhaps we can snag an OFer near the trade deadline.