The Last Jedi [spoiler alert]

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Holy crap I enjoyed that movie.

As usual I question some of the military strategies (why not blast the single x wing immediately? why put a giant target on the deck of your dreadnought? Why not leapfrog the fleeting rebels?),  but that was a really fun ride.

[MusicMan]

I think I'll be nitpicking a lot more on my second viewing, but I really enjoyed it, and I agree with those reviews that say this is the movie we needed, not the movie we wanted.

The [spoiler]fight in Snoke's throne room[/spoiler] was fucking outstanding.

[BUWebguy]

I'm probably in the minority here, but it's probably toward the bottom if I were to rank the SW movies. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either. I think that's probably just because it's the middle movie of a trilogy -- I like resolution, and there's not a lot of that here.

I really liked the storylines with Luke, Rey and Kylo Ren, and where they took those characters. But the other storylines -- and there were many, with so many main characters -- often felt like they just had to give them something to do. Finn's plotline, in particular, didn't feel like it added anything to the story.

I do give the movie credit -- there were a lot of times where I genuinely didn't know where they were going to go next. That's hard to do in a franchise film of this sort.

I'm curious to see how the movie holds up in future viewings, with the suspense removed. I also suspect it will benefit (at least in my mind) once we have the resolution that Ep. 9 will bring.

I'm disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Snoke or Phasma before they were offed.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Agree that Finn and Rose's adventure seemed out of place.  The best cinematic part of that was the kid at the end using the force to grab his broom.

As for resolution, I can take or leave it.   Part of the enjoyment I got out of the first trilogy was the time between Empire and Jedi and wondering what the heck was going to happen.  Was Han ok?  Was Vader really Luke's father?

Likewise I enjoyed Lost the most when the questions were plentiful and answers yet to be worked out by JJ and crew.

As for Phasma and Snoke, stand alone film down the road? Lots of promise for characters that only went 2/3s thru the trilogy.

[Mr. Appropriate]

Thought this one largely sucked, with some great moments (fight scene with the red guards) but overall a movie trapped in its own legacy riddled with weak, unneccesary subplots. Did like the reveal about Rey's parents. And Laura Dern...been a fan since  "Wild at Heart."

My new hope for the franchise are the stand alone movies. I enjoyed Rogue One more than the Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. Excited by the Han Solo and Boba Fett movies scheduled to come out.

I hope they follow the marvel format and do a lot more single character movies and then link them up in overarching saga stories. Think "Thor Ragnarok" is a create example of what can happen if you let a director come up with his own take and have fun with a character. I have not seen any of the other Thor movies (and don't plan to) but like the director and completely enjoyed it.

Would love to see an R-rated Sith triology that was truly frightening (like Vader in the end of Rogue One). 

[Jacksonian]

I found it mediocre.  I agree that Finn’s subplot seemed superfluous.  But Luke’s death scene killed it for me.  8 movies and not a single main character good guy dies alone.  Too, amazing force superpower then poof.  Yes he went there to die but he didn’t have to do it alone. It would have been easy to write in an emotional death scene with Rey and Leah.  After first viewing I have it just above the prequels but below all the others.

[moriartp]

I found it mediocre.  I agree that Finn’s subplot seemed superfluous.  But Luke’s death scene killed it for me.  8 movies and not a single main character good guy dies alone.  Too, amazing force superpower then poof.  Yes he went there to die but he didn’t have to do it alone. It would have been easy to write in an emotional death scene with Rey and Leah.  After first viewing I have it just above the prequels but below all the others.

I hated this part the first time I saw it, and it ruined the whole movie for me. After a few days of thinking, I realized I had mellowed on it and decided to give it another shot. Second time around, the entire Luke story came together for me. Where first I'd found it disrespectful to the character, it felt exactly the opposite on second viewing. There's a lot more thematic buildup to his death than I'd picked up on.

The entire sequence in Snoke's throne room is glorious. Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver were great through the whole movie. I share the same gripes as most people on the Finn/Rose/Poe storylines, but my change of heart on Luke's story took me from hating the movie to really enjoying it.

[Limey]

I agree with MM that this was the movie we needed.  It’s a far more artful and respectful rebooting than Abrams achieved with Star Trek.  Ep. IX was supposed to be Leia’s movie - after VII was Han’s and this was Luke’s - but Fisher’s death has scuppered those plans sadly. 

I agree that Finn’s and Rose’s subplot seemed out of place.  But now we have a tug-of-love set up between Finn, Rey and Rose a la Luke, Leia and Han.  Plus, I think del Toro”s character is going to be important going forward.

The wholesale slaughter of the Resistance got a little old.  I guess that’s all part of the plot cleansing too, but the drip-feeding of it was tiresome and lacked tension because of it. 

Having picked all those nits, that was a solid episode with some great characters and set-pieces.

Oh, and the last Jedi is Kylo...no, Luke...no, Rey...no!  The stableboy.  Fabulous!

[Limey]

Thought this one largely sucked, with some great moments (fight scene with the red guards) but overall a movie trapped in its own legacy riddled with weak, unneccesary subplots. Did like the reveal about Rey's parents. And Laura Dern...been a fan since  "Wild at Heart."

Dern's character seem really pointless to me.  They make reference to her being a badass war hero, then she's held up to be a "cut 'n' runner", then she's a tactical genius and then she's dead (heroically).  If that was the arc, they could have just as easily given it to one of the resistance leaders they otherwise obliterated in the bombing of the flagship's bridge; Admiral Ackbar being the most obvious - and deserving - candidate.  For such a cult character, his demise was a wasted opportunity; they just wanted rid of the prior trilogy's crew - which I totally get - so he had to go.  At least make it memorable!

The thing about Rey's parents is that it sets up the later reveal of the stable boy's force power: i.e. you don't need force-lineage to have the gift.  After all, it's a major chicken and egg conundrum if the gift is passed down from parentage only.  I still wonder whether Kylo will turn out to have been lying - it was to his advantage to help turn Rey that she had muggle parents - but, as I said, it set up the stable boy's reveal without the internet being overwhelmed with speculation as to by whom he was sired.

overall, though, I think it was the next step towards cleaning out the old guard so that the next trilogy can be built on Kylo, Rey, Poe and Hux.  Empire was the middle child that took a while to cement itself as the best of the entire bunch; I think this one will be better understood, too, once IX wraps up this set of three.

[Jacksonian]

Dern's character seem really pointless to me.  They make reference to her being a badass war hero, then she's held up to be a "cut 'n' runner", then she's a tactical genius and then she's dead (heroically).  If that was the arc, they could have just as easily given it to one of the resistance leaders they otherwise obliterated in the bombing of the flagship's bridge; Admiral Ackbar being the most obvious - and deserving - candidate.  For such a cult character, his demise was a wasted opportunity; they just wanted rid of the prior trilogy's crew - which I totally get - so he had to go.  At least make it memorable!

The thing about Rey's parents is that it sets up the later reveal of the stable boy's force power: i.e. you don't need force-lineage to have the gift.  After all, it's a major chicken and egg conundrum if the gift is passed down from parentage only.  I still wonder whether Kylo will turn out to have been lying - it was to his advantage to help turn Rey that she had muggle parents - but, as I said, it set up the stable boy's reveal without the internet being overwhelmed with speculation as to by whom he was sired.

overall, though, I think it was the next step towards cleaning out the old guard so that the next trilogy can be built on Kylo, Rey, Poe and Hux.  Empire was the middle child that took a while to cement itself as the best of the entire bunch; I think this one will be better understood, too, once IX wraps up this set of three.

Speaking of the prior trilogy’s crew, I thought Hamill’s performance was really terrific.  Made more so by the fact that most of his work has been voice only with a few on tv jobs sprinkled in.

[Limey]

Speaking of the prior trilogy’s crew, I thought Hamill’s performance was really terrific.  Made more so by the fact that most of his work has been voice only with a few on tv jobs sprinkled in.

Reportedly, he didn't like what they were doing with Luke, but he certainly didn't phone it in.

[Limey]

Holy crap I enjoyed that movie.

As usual I question some of the military strategies (why not blast the single x wing immediately? why put a giant target on the deck of your dreadnought? Why not leapfrog the fleeting rebels?),  but that was a really fun ride.

I enjoyed it very much too.  I'm sure the guys at "Everything Wrong With..." will have a field day with this one, but they shred most movies regardless.

[BUWebguy]

overall, though, I think it was the next step towards cleaning out the old guard so that the next trilogy can be built on Kylo, Rey, Poe and Hux.

That was my thought after Ep 7 -- that they're using this trilogy to say goodbye to the original cast, and then after that we'll really focus on Rey, Poe, Finn, etc. But Daisy Ridley has been quoted as saying she doesn't expect to keep doing SW movies after Ep 9:

"I am really, really excited to do the third thing and round it out, because ultimately, what I was signing on to was three films," Ridley said. "So in my head, it's three films. I think it will feel like the right time to round it out." ... "Who knows," Ridley said. "I honestly feel like the world may end in the next 30 years, so, if in 30 years, we are not living underground in a series of interconnected cells, then sure. Maybe. But again, it’s like, who knows.”

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/01/star-wars-daisy-ridley-says-shes-done-playing-rey-after-episode-ix

[Limey]

But Daisy Ridley has been quoted as saying she doesn't expect to keep doing SW movies after Ep 9

[Yoda Voice] Another Jedi, there is now, hmmmm?

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Watched it again yesterday and liked it even more (still not perfect,  military strategy in that galaxy is horrendous - on all sides).  Rey/Luke/Kylo were all great.


But if I had a 'change anything you want' card it would be this:
They should have done this like Marvel did. Forget Clone Wars/Rebels cartoons. Make stand alone movies that fill in time gaps,  introduce characters like Snoke, Rey, Finn, and show Luke being the Jedi Badass we always imagined him to be.  Weave these tales and have the saga movies come in to complete the trilogy the way the Marvel movies have played into the Avenger movies now set to culminate - for now- with Infinity War.  It would have been a much cleaner transition and relieved Episode VII of the nostalgia burden.

[Limey]

But if I had a 'change anything you want' card it would be this:
They should have done this like Marvel did. Forget Clone Wars/Rebels cartoons. Make stand alone movies that fill in time gaps,  introduce characters like Snoke, Rey, Finn, and show Luke being the Jedi Badass we always imagined him to be.  Weave these tales and have the saga movies come in to complete the trilogy the way the Marvel movies have played into the Avenger movies now set to culminate - for now- with Infinity War.  It would have been a much cleaner transition and relieved Episode VII of the nostalgia burden.

Rogue One connecting directly to the beginning of A New Hope is one of my favorite movie moments of all time.  Disney is making its one-off side movies, but it is doing it backwards, connecting (loosely or directly) to existing episodes rather than building the base towards new ensemble episodes as you suggest (and with which I agree wholeheartedly).

I can only think that Disney decided it didn't have the time to build the base, because they already had six three episodes out there and they wanted a "Star Wars" movie to make a splash.  Marvel was starting from (mostly) scratch, so it was much easier for them.  Imagine Disney announcing the first Star Wars movie for ten twenty-two years, and then it not have all the main characters (or any of them).  It would've been a bloodbath.

Also, they are using this new trilogy to see off the stars of the last one; one offing each per movie for Han then Luke then Leia (at least, that was the plan before Fisher passed).  How they go forward after these three will be interesting; I am looking forward to the Solo prequel, but I've never bought into the Boba Fettish so I'm not so jazzed about that one.  But, once this Star Wars trilogy is done, they will have the breathing room to expand their cinematic universe wherever they want it to go.

[das]

Rogue One connecting directly to the beginning of A New Hope is one of my favorite movie moments of all time.

Mine too. I am excited (hopeful) that the “many Bothans died to bring us this information” line in the military briefing scene from Returm of the Jedi will lead to another similar storyline like Rogue One.

[Limey]

Mine too. I am excited (hopeful) that the “many Bothans died to bring us this information” line in the military briefing scene from Returm of the Jedi will lead to another similar storyline like Rogue One.

Well, that storyline loses a little tarnish when you remember that the information for which the many Bothans died was planted to lead the rebellion into a trap.

There's a wealth of characters from the original trilogy, but Obi Wan and - to a lesser extent - Yoda have been explored in the prequels (that don't actually exist) and cartoons, I doubt a Chewie prequel would hold up on its own - I expect his backstory will be revealed somewhat in the Solo prequel, ditto Lando - and I'm not sure there is much interest in any of the other peripheral characters from the first six three episodes around whom to build a whole movie.

As I said before, I'm not a fan of Boba Fett so I don't understand why there's going to be a standalone movie for him as his backstory was dealt with in "Clones".  A whole movie about an anti-hero who hunts down good guys and at least survives the story arc (to die comedically in the Sarlac) doesn't seem like it's got much in the way of legs to me.

Solo makes sense.  For future offshoots from the main Star Wars episodes, I think they're going to have to look forward from VII onwards.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Was Shadows of the Empire not canon? I seem to recall that it dealt with the Bothans.

Also, I heard that the Boba Fett movie was nixed.

[Limey]

Was Shadows of the Empire not canon? I seem to recall that it dealt with the Bothans.

Also, I heard that the Boba Fett movie was nixed.

In JJ's world, nothing is canon.

[BUWebguy]

I doubt a Chewie prequel would hold up on its own

We already got a Chewie movie.

[Jacksonian]

We already got a Chewie movie.

I hate you.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

We already got a Chewie movie.

WTF?!?!?!?

[das]

We already got a Chewie movie.

Omg, what the heck?  That’s horrible.

[Limey]

Empire was the middle child that took a while to cement itself as the best of the entire bunch; I think this one will be better understood, too, once IX wraps up this set of three.

Things that don't age well...

Russian plot to destroy the movie aside, the internet is rife with scathing critiques of the movie:  the plot points, tonal message and basic cinematography.  Even the use of equipment comes in for justifiable criticism (with a bonus dissection of the throne room fight).  Having watched the movie again (once), and viewed some of the critique, the movie holds up about as well as my quote above.

[Jacksonian]

Things that don't age well...

Russian plot to destroy the movie aside, the internet is rife with scathing critiques of the movie:  the plot points, tonal message and basic cinematography.  Even the use of equipment comes in for justifiable criticism (with a bonus dissection of the throne room fight).  Having watched the movie again (once), and viewed some of the critique, the movie holds up about as well as my quote above.

Apparently Star Wars was the only Disney property to lose money last year.  The movie was that bad.

[Limey]

Apparently Star Wars was the only Disney property to lose money last year.  The movie was that bad.

Solo was extremely "Meh" too.  I think they made a mistake laying out the one-a-year timetable without the scripts mostly in place.  Last Jedi and Solo both had to be re-made / re-written on the fly, which rarely results in anything other than something that is, at best, acceptable.

[Jacksonian]

Solo was extremely "Meh" too.  I think they made a mistake laying out the one-a-year timetable without the scripts mostly in place.  Last Jedi and Solo both had to be re-made / re-written on the fly, which rarely results in anything other than something that is, at best, acceptable.

There's a ton more to it than that.  LucasFilm leadership is awful. 

[Limey]

There's a ton more to it than that.  LucasFilm leadership is awful.

Exactly.  Disney bought the franchise and expected LucasFilm to be able to crank out a great Star Wars movie every year for twenty years, when they hadn't even made a good one for longer than that.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Exactly.  Disney bought the franchise and expected LucasFilm to be able to crank out a great Star Wars movie every year for twenty years, when they hadn't even made a good one for longer than that.

I enjoyed Solo and definitely liked Last Jedi much better on second viewing, but the principle of scarcity has really kicked in for me re: Star Wars. I am about as bored with them now as I am with superheroes.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

The Marvel folks did it right.  Lucasfilm should have paid closer attention.

[subnuclear]

Apparently Star Wars was the only Disney property to lose money last year.  The movie was that bad.

I assume this calculation did not include merchandising and other licensing.

[Jacksonian]

I assume this calculation did not include merchandising and other licensing.

It was their SEC filing I think and actually it was a net decrease from the previous year.  Their only property to do so.

[subnuclear]

It was their SEC filing I think and actually it was a net decrease from the previous year.  Their only property to do so.

That's different from losing money, right? I had always heard the merchandising side made bonkers amount of money. 

[Limey]

The Marvel folks did it right.  Lucasfilm should have paid closer attention.

See also C, D.

[Limey]

That's different from losing money, right? I had always heard the merchandising side made bonkers amount of money.

True, but it still means that the franchise is less valuable after the recent episodes, which shouldn't be the case.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Apparently Star Wars was the only Disney property to lose money last year.  The movie was that bad.

Financially Solo suffered the most from the complete lack of momentum leading up to it.

Complete mismanagement (starting with the choice to do an origin story) being middle and end.

Thre movie itself was ok/ nothing special.

I enjoyed sulking Lando the most.

[Jacksonian]

Financially Solo suffered the most from the complete lack of momentum leading up to it.

Complete mismanagement (starting with the choice to do an origin story) being middle and end.

Thre movie itself was ok/ nothing special.

I enjoyed sulking Lando the most.

I really just have no desire to see it so I'll take your word for it.

[TeeJoe]

I really just have no desire to see it so I'll take your word for it.

I felt very much the same after watching The Last Jedi. IMO it was just an incoherent buzzkill of a plot. Although, I did watch Solo when it came out on DVD and enjoyed it. Not the best, but a good popcorn flick.   

[moriartp]

I really just have no desire to see it so I'll take your word for it.

You’re not missing anything. It’s not horrible, it’s just completely unnecessary.

[MusicMan]

You’re not missing anything. It’s not horrible, it’s just completely unnecessary.

A very good summary.


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[doyce7]

I didn't watch Solo but I think I'd rather watch a Jar-Jar Binks origin story than watch the Last Jedi again

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[Jacksonian]

I felt very much the same after watching The Last Jedi. IMO it was just an incoherent buzzkill of a plot.

My feelings about it were quite a bit stronger.

[TeeJoe]

I didn't watch Solo but I think I'd rather watch a Jar-Jar Binks origin story than watch the Last Jedi again

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I refused to play the which would you rather game with my son when he was younger.  I choose NEITHER!!!

[MusicMan]

I really enjoyed The Last Jedi, and thought it was exactly how Luke would have evolved.


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[Limey]

You’re not missing anything. It’s not horrible, it’s just completely unnecessary.

The ending appeared engineered in such a way to suggest sequels/spin offs (pre-OT rebels).

[moriartp]

I really enjoyed The Last Jedi, and thought it was exactly how Luke would have evolved.

+1

[Limey]

I really enjoyed The Last Jedi, and thought it was exactly how Luke would have evolved.

The New Hope to the Last Curmudgeon.  Natural character arc.

[MusicMan]

The New Hope to the Last Curmudgeon.  Natural character arc.

After Ben and Yoda both screwed him? Yeah.


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[Limey]

After Ben and Yoda both screwed him? Yeah.

From risking the whole galaxy because he saw a sliver of good in Vader (and being right) to killing Ben Solo in his sleep because he’s a bit naughty (and being so wrong he created the new worst person)?

[Jacksonian]

From risking the whole galaxy because he saw a sliver of good in Vader (and being right) to killing Ben Solo in his sleep because he’s a bit naughty (and being so wrong he created the new worst person)?

Not to mention having to be heavily goaded into action as a young man when the most evil being in the galaxy appears to be moments from killing everyone he loves.

[moriartp]

From risking the whole galaxy because he saw a sliver of good in Vader (and being right) to killing Ben Solo in his sleep because he’s a bit naughty (and being so wrong he created the new worst person)?

You mean when he saw the destruction of the galactic order and everything he had devoted his life to, and then didn’t actually try to kill him even though he should have?

It’s a tragic recursion. It’s a lot like Anakin having a disturbing vision of Padmé’s death in EIII and, in trying to prevent it, causing it to happen. Just one of those things that happens to the Skywalker boys.

[Jacksonian]

You mean when he saw the destruction of the galactic order and everything he had devoted his life to, and then didn’t actually try to kill him even though he should have?

It’s a tragic recursion. It’s a lot like Anakin having a disturbing vision of Padmé’s death in EIII and, in trying to prevent it, causing it to happen. Just one of those things that happens to the Skywalker boys.

That’s episode 5.  After barely surviving and not giving in, he evolves and becomes the better man in 6.

Episode 8 Luke only works if he had killed Vader then somehow escaped from the Emperor and left in the shuttle just as the DS II blows up.

Episode 6 Luke learned that resisting the dark impulses is the path to peace even in the face of utter destruction.  It’s just not reasonable that 6 Luke would “instinctively” ignite his lightsaber when sensing the dark side in Ben.  Especially when we know from episode 7 that despite years of dark side training Ben was still feeling the pull of the light side.  If Luke senses the dark how could he have not sensed the conflict and as with Vader appealed relentlessly to his light side.

If the rumors of JJ backtracking 8 in episode 9 are true fans of 8 are going to be disappointed.

[moriartp]

If Luke senses the dark how could he have not sensed the conflict and as with Vader appealed relentlessly to his light side.

If the rumors of JJ backtracking 8 in episode 9 are true fans of 8 are going to be disappointed.

IMO, it’s because Ben is fundamentally bad. Anakin was a troubled but good person. Ben has attachments to family, etc., but deep down he’s rotten. Even the worst people might love their mothers. Not every conflicted soul is a good soul. Luke tells Leia (and Ben himself) as much.

I think Abrams would be wrong to backtrack on Ben being a true villain. I’m not interested in a redemption arc for him. But this question (and the Luke debate) are part of why I like what TLJ did with the Skywalker story.

[Limey]

They’re going to be pissed because of all the good stuff that’s forever gone because E8 flushed it down the toilet for no good reason:  Snoak; Rey’s lineage; Phasma; Luke; Ackbar...

[Jacksonian]

IMO, it’s because Ben is fundamentally bad. Anakin was a troubled but good person. Ben has attachments to family, etc., but deep down he’s rotten. Even the worst people might love their mothers. Not every conflicted soul is a good soul. Luke tells Leia (and Ben himself) as much.

I think Abrams would be wrong to backtrack on Ben being a true villain. I’m not interested in a redemption arc for him. But this question (and the Luke debate) are part of why I like what TLJ did with the Skywalker story.

I'm going to stop here and just agree to disagree.  My view of the movie is particularly extreme (racist/misandrist) and don't want to get any more agitated about a franchise I've left.

[drew corleone]

Agree with the sentiment that Solo was unnecessary, but it's been the most fun of the new movies.If they do a sequel I will be there on opening day.

Also agree that Lucasfilm f'ed up royally by not developing a full outline ahead of time to ensure a cohesive story. I simply cannot believe that they paid $4B dollars for the most beloved franchise in movie history and decided to wing it. It's like that old game you'd play during your creative writing class where one person starts a story and then someone else picks it up and adds a little before throwing it to the next person.

[Limey]

It's like that old game you'd play during your creative writing class where one person starts a story and then someone else picks it up and adds a little before throwing it to the next person.

Ep IX plot leaked...

[Bench]

I'm going to stop here and just agree to disagree.  My view of the movie is particularly extreme (racist/misandrist) and don't want to get any more agitated about a franchise I've left.

Your opinion is racist/misandrist or your opinion is that the movie is racist/misandrist? Either way, don't stop.

[Limey]

Your opinion is racist/misandrist or your opinion is that the movie is racist/misandrist? Either way, don't stop.

Rose and Holdo are the two characters that generate the most discussion in this area.  Basically, they're shoe-horned into the movie seemingly for no other reason than to provide additional female characters and, in Rose's case, an Asian character, presumably to boost ticket sales in the lucrative Chinese market (it didn't, because Kelly Marie Tran is of Vietnamese heritage which - checks map - is a whole nother country).

Story-wise, Holdo's role in the plot should have gone to Ackbar, but instead we're introduced to a new character out of the blue to whom we have no emotional attachment.  She spends her time being a dick to Poe - who we do have an emotional attachment to - seemingly for absolutely no reason whatsoever.  Her withholding of the escape plan from Poe, while other officers (as we find out later) and the unconscious Leia all seem to already know, sets off Poe on his own to try save the fleet.

Poe's effort in this regard ends up with Finn and Rose going to Canto Bight in what becomes one of the most unliked sequences of the movie.  I won't dredge up all that again, but Finn's and Rose's efforts end up going absolutely nowhere and Holdo's plan goes forward with a shrug from Poe once he finds out what it is.  So Rose and Canto Bight and Maz Kanata's cameo and del Toro and Phasma's cameo and the horse-thingies and Justin Theroux' cameo and Warrick Davis' cameo and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's cameo was all completely irrelevant and only came about because Holdo is a shitty manager.

Now, I don't think all of that rises to the level of racism or misandry, but it's clearly pandering and it's awful movie-making.

[Bench]

Poe's effort in this regard ends up with Finn and Rose going to Canto Bight in what becomes one of the most unliked sequences of the movie.  I won't dredge up all that again, but Finn's and Rose's efforts end up going absolutely nowhere and Holdo's plan goes forward with a shrug from Poe once he finds out what it is.  So Rose and Canto Bight and Maz Kanata's cameo and del Toro and Phasma's cameo and the horse-thingies and Justin Theroux' cameo and Warrick Davis' cameo and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's cameo was all completely irrelevant and only came about because Holdo is a shitty manager.

I've seen the movie, but it clearly didn't make much of an impression on me as I don't even vaguely recognize most of this.  Is Canto Bight the dumb casino planet?

FWIW I thought Rose was a fine character, albeit a little overly saccharine.

[Limey]

I've seen the movie, but it clearly didn't make much of an impression on me as I don't even vaguely recognize most of this.  Is Canto Bight the dumb casino planet?

FWIW I thought Rose was a fine character, albeit a little overly saccharine.

Yep.  Stupid casino part.

Rose just struck me as "off" when I first watched it, and still more when I watched it again.  The romance angle with Finn seemed forced at first, and this doesn't get better.  The whole casino sub-plot appears to have been manufactured just to put Finn and Rose together when, in actuality, it was entirely irrelevant to the plot in the end.  I don't think anyone but Poe knew they were gone, and what they did had no impact to the main story and they got back to the fleet without anyone batting an eye.  Even Rose stopping Finn from suicide-bombing the battering ram didn't change anything.  It's all just pointless filler.

[moriartp]

Yep.  Stupid casino part.

Rose just struck me as "off" when I first watched it, and still more when I watched it again.  The romance angle with Finn seemed forced at first, and this doesn't get better.  The whole casino sub-plot appears to have been manufactured just to put Finn and Rose together when, in actuality, it was an entirely irrelevant to the plot in the end.  Even Rose stopping Finn from suicide-bombing the battering ram didn't change anything.  It's all just pointless filler.

Johnson started with his preferred arc for each character (Finn transforming from self/Rey-interested to committed freedom fighter, Poe transforming from cocky pilot to actual leader) and developed extremely clunky plots around them. As much as I like the Luke/Rey/Kylo plot, I don’t have a whole lot to say in defense of the rest. Rose is an afterthought created just because Finn needed someone to talk to. The romantic aspect is dumb as hell.

[Jacksonian]

Your opinion is racist/misandrist or your opinion is that the movie is racist/misandrist? Either way, don't stop.

The movie.

[Jacksonian]

Story-wise, Holdo's role in the plot should have gone to Ackbar, but instead we're introduced to a new character out of the blue to whom we have no emotional attachment.  She spends her time being a dick to Poe - who we do have an emotional attachment to - seemingly for absolutely no reason whatsoever.  Her withholding of the escape plan from Poe, while other officers (as we find out later) and the unconscious Leia all seem to already know, sets off Poe on his own to try save the fleet.

Poe's effort in this regard ends up with Finn and Rose going to Canto Bight in what becomes one of the most unliked sequences of the movie.  I won't dredge up all that again, but Finn's and Rose's efforts end up going absolutely nowhere and Holdo's plan goes forward with a shrug from Poe once he finds out what it is.  So Rose and Canto Bight and Maz Kanata's cameo and del Toro and Phasma's cameo and the horse-thingies and Justin Theroux' cameo and Warrick Davis' cameo and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's cameo was all completely irrelevant and only came about because Holdo is a shitty manager.

Now, I don't think all of that rises to the level of racism or misandry, but it's clearly pandering and it's awful movie-making.

Poe is the stereotypical Hispanic male who acts first and thinks second and usually makes things worse because of it.  He only needed a Three Amigos costume to round out the character.

[Limey]

Poe is the stereotypical Hispanic male who acts first and thinks second and usually makes things worse because of it.  He only needed a Three Amigos costume to round out the character.

The way you describe him, he's not much different from a young Han Solo.  I don't see any racism/pandering in that casting, especially as Oscar Isaac was somewhat of an "it" dude at the time, coming off Inside Llewyn Davis, A Most Violent Year and Ex Machina.

[Jacksonian]

The way you describe him, he's not much different from a young Han Solo.  I don't see any racism/pandering in that casting, especially as Oscar Isaac was somewhat of an "it" dude at the time, coming off Inside Llewyn Davis, A Most Violent Year and Ex Machina.

He's your only Hispanic actor, and his character wasn't like that in 7.

As you noted part of Rose's role was to pander to an Asian audience.  That's insulting if not racist.  Too, as you note she's useless to the primary plot.  They have one African actress (voice for CGI).  She's given minimal time on screen and only related to the useless subplot.  One African actor.  Let's start him off as comic relief and then send him too on the useless subplot.

Every actor of color is useless to plot resolution.

[Limey]

He's your only Hispanic actor, and his character wasn't like that in 7.

As you noted part of Rose's role was to pander to an Asian audience.  That's insulting if not racist.  Too, as you note she's useless to the primary plot.  They have one African actress (voice for CGI).  She's given minimal time on screen and only related to the useless subplot.  One African actor.  Let's start him off as comic relief and then send him too on the useless subplot.

Every actor of color is useless to plot resolution.

If you break it down, every character in this movie is handled badly:

Rey - becomes a Jedi (and beats Luke) without training, parental intrigue blown up
Kylo - ascends to the most powerful position in the galaxy while behaving like a spoiled child (oh, wait, that rings true)
Snoak - killed wastefully and stupidly (Boba Snoak?)
Leia - blown up for no reason, turned into Mary Poppins, then spends half the movie in a coma
Luke - see earlier comments
Poe - dashing pilot turned into flailing insubordinate
Finn - turned into comic relief / romantic distraction
Hux - turned into screeching fool / comic relief
Chewie - was he even in the movie?
Ackbar - off'd in such a manner as most missed it when it happened
Phasma - can't decide if she was more wasted in this movie or the previous one
Maz Kanata - shoehorned into the plot, by video, to deliver a cheesy joke

Added characters:
Holdo - see earlier comments
Rose - see earlier comments
Porgs and those fish-looking cleaning women - WTF?
del Toro - ok, this is always a good move
Force-enabled stable boy - see, no training required

[Bench]

He's your only Hispanic actor, and his character wasn't like that in 7.

As you noted part of Rose's role was to pander to an Asian audience.  That's insulting if not racist.  Too, as you note she's useless to the primary plot.  They have one African actress (voice for CGI).  She's given minimal time on screen and only related to the useless subplot.  One African actor.  Let's start him off as comic relief and then send him too on the useless subplot.

Every actor of color is useless to plot resolution.

That makes sense. I certainly felt similarly after seeing Episode 1.  Every character "of color" was an awful ethnic stereotype. 

[Limey]

That makes sense. I certainly felt similarly after seeing Episode 1.  Every character "of color" was an awful ethnic stereotype.

What is this Episode 1 of which you speak?

[das]

The way you describe him, he's not much different from a young Han Solo.  I don't see any racism/pandering in that casting, especially as Oscar Isaac was somewhat of an "it" dude at the time, coming off Inside Llewyn Davis, A Most Violent Year and Ex Machina.

Mind blown....  I never made the connection that the same Issac in Ex Machina (which I loved) was the same as Poe in SW, who was good in VII and ok in VIII.  He seems so much shorter in Ex Machina.  And, man, talk about a beard changing someone.

[MusicMan]

Mind blown....  I never made the connection that the same Issac in Ex Machina (which I loved) was the same as Poe in SW, who was good in VII and ok in VIII.  He seems so much shorter in Ex Machina.  And, man, talk about a beard changing someone.

None of Tom Cruise’s beards ever changed him.


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[Jacksonian]

If you break it down, every character in this movie is handled badly:

Rey - becomes a Jedi (and beats Luke) without training, parental intrigue blown up
Kylo - ascends to the most powerful position in the galaxy while behaving like a spoiled child (oh, wait, that rings true)
Snoak - killed wastefully and stupidly (Boba Snoak?)
Leia - blown up for no reason, turned into Mary Poppins, then spends half the movie in a coma
Luke - see earlier comments
Poe - dashing pilot turned into flailing insubordinate
Finn - turned into comic relief / romantic distraction
Hux - turned into screeching fool / comic relief
Chewie - was he even in the movie?
Ackbar - off'd in such a manner as most missed it when it happened
Phasma - can't decide if she was more wasted in this movie or the previous one
Maz Kanata - shoehorned into the plot, by video, to deliver a cheesy joke

Added characters:
Holdo - see earlier comments
Rose - see earlier comments
Porgs and those fish-looking cleaning women - WTF?
del Toro - ok, this is always a good move
Force-enabled stable boy - see, no training required

Every man is in one of four pots: Asshole (thanks Luke), Comic relief (I see you too Hux), Useless (we covered them), or bad (Kylo and Snoke).

That leaves us with the white women: 3 good, 1 bad. 
Rey - so bad ass that she can train herself to be a Jedi, resist Kylo, able to move a small avalanche, redeem Luke, save the ancient Jedi texts, and show up in time to get everyone safely off the planet.  Leia - Matron extraordinaire.   No advanced force training that we know of yet can Mary Poppins her way out of space to safety, go into a coma and still be the Resistance figurehead, then when revived is the only one to be able to control Poe, get everyone to the planet, and act as conduit for Luke to appear.  Holdo - Will of iron, able to take command during Leia's coma, keep the Resistance from being obliterated and plan the escape to the planet while having to fend off Poe, and be the grand martyr for the Resistance.  TL;DR - 3 good white women did no wrong while being the only good (vs. evil) characters necessary to the plot.

Phasma - bad white woman gets very little screen time, also useless to the plot.  There's a lot going on here.  But in the fight scene she needlessly gets her helmet broken.  (IMO, the better effect would have been to have her die with her armor completely intact). One consequence is that we're reminded she's white.  And what happens to bad white women?  I know Finn didn't technically kill her (she fell), but the one black male character beat her to the point that she was vulnerable.  They could have just as easily had Rose kill her to save Finn which would tie in to the romance angle later in the movie.

Also I didn't expect nor want the movie to hit me over the head with any political agenda.  Not that I care which side of the aisle anyone sits, but am I the only one who noticed Holdo destroyed the RIGHT wing of the First Order ship?

[Limey]

None of Tom Cruise’s beards ever changed him.

SFN

[Limey]

Also I didn't expect nor want the movie to hit me over the head with any political agenda.  Not that I care which side of the aisle anyone sits, but am I the only one who noticed Holdo destroyed the RIGHT wing of the First Order ship?

That's reading a little too much into it.  Don't look at that; and don't try to think of the times in the entire saga when being able to hyperspace through something to destroy it might have been useful...

[Jacksonian]

and don't try to think of the times in the entire saga when being able to hyperspace through something to destroy it might have been useful...

Wait.  Wha...?  Looks up old quotes, "Without precise calculations we could fly right through a supernova..."  Son.of.a.bitch.

[Jacksonian]

I think Abrams would be wrong to backtrack on Ben being a true villain. I’m not interested in a redemption arc for him. But this question (and the Luke debate) are part of why I like what TLJ did with the Skywalker story.

The one's I read, and now can't find, were about Luke and the whole let go of the past theme.  As in we're going to use him to market the hell out of 9 and see if we can generate more revenue.

[Limey]

The one's I read, and now can't find, were about Luke and the whole let go of the past theme.  As in we're going to use him to market the hell out of 9 and see if we can generate more revenue.

Rian Johnson is signed up to write and direct X, XI and XII, so I think he was kinda blowing up JJ's plot base ready for that.  At least I hope he was, otherwise it was all rather foolish.  But then JJ is doing IX, so who the hell knows what is going on.  At least the next three will be written together, the current three famously being written on the fly.

[MusicMan]

Rian Johnson is signed up to write and direct X, XI and XII, so I think he was kinda blowing up JJ's plot base ready for that.  At least I hope he was, otherwise it was all rather foolish.  But then JJ is doing IX, so who the hell knows what is going on.  At least the next three will be written together, the current three famously being written on the fly.

Johnson’s trilogy is supposed to be completely independent of the Skywalker saga.


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[Limey]

Johnson’s trilogy is supposed to be completely independent of the Skywalker saga.

Assuming that Ben doesn't make it to the end of IX, then there aren't any Skywalkers left, right?  So the next trilogy isn't "Star Wars" it's "A Star Wars Story" a la Rogue One and Solo.

Jeez this is just a clusterfuck.  Again, it's not like they haven't seen how to do it...Marvel!  Iron Man 1, 2 & 3 was Iron Man, separate and distinct from the Avengers 1 - 4, yet still connected.    They can have Solo stories and Rey and Finn stories and whatever the fuck they like, but having a numbered trilogy that's not part of the main story line - they Skywalker story line - is just bonkers.

[Jacksonian]

Assuming that Ben doesn't make it to the end of IX, then there aren't any Skywalkers left, right?  So the next trilogy isn't "Star Wars" it's "A Star Wars Story" a la Rogue One and Solo.

Jeez this is just a clusterfuck.  Again, it's not like they haven't seen how to do it...Marvel!  Iron Man 1, 2 & 3 was Iron Man, separate and distinct from the Avengers 1 - 4, yet still connected.    They can have Solo stories and Rey and Finn stories and whatever the fuck they like, but having a numbered trilogy that's not part of the main story line - they Skywalker story line - is just bonkers.

Maybe they just don’t want to understand that the family story is what made it what it is.

[Noe]

I thought the Casino part was a long-winded way (sort of like my writing here trying to say something someone else says in one to two sentences)  to introduce the next generation of Jedi's. You know, the children working the horse thingys stalls. But then again, maybe that was a veiled attempt to make a social commentary about age bias in the workplace, where older, experienced and costly employees are getting laid off for younger, cheaper and more inexperienced workers because that is the new way for the dastardly Federation... err... Corporate America runs things. They did kill off what remained of my generation's Star Wars other than Chewy and the CGed Leia for goodness sake. Probably because it's racist to lay off Wookies who symbolize... ahum... heck, I don't know... but I bet there was a conference room meeting somewhere where someone opined it was not a good idea to insult PETA or something.

There is just something wrong with our society today when you can't kill off a Wookie, but you can a Han Solo. An older, wiser, experienced Han Solo.

[chuck]

I thought the Casino part was a long-winded way

I got this far and then fell out of my chair.

[Limey]

I thought the Casino part was a long-winded way (sort of like my writing here trying to say something someone else says in one to two sentences)  to introduce the next generation of Jedi's. You know, the children working the horse thingys stalls. But then again, maybe that was a veiled attempt to make a social commentary about age bias in the workplace, where older, experienced and costly employees are getting laid off for younger, cheaper and more inexperienced workers because that is the new way for the dastardly Federation... err... Corporate America runs things. They did kill off what remained of my generation's Star Wars other than Chewy and the CGed Leia for goodness sake. Probably because it's racist to lay off Wookies who symbolize... ahum... heck, I don't know... but I bet there was a conference room meeting somewhere where someone opined it was not a good idea to insult PETA or something.

There is just something wrong with our society today when you can't kill off a Wookie, but you can a Han Solo. An older, wiser, experienced Han Solo.

The casino part was heavy-handed in every way possible.  It seems clear to me now that the schtable boy (thank you, BeerFest) is going to be the feature of Johnson’s upcoming trilogy. 

[Jacksonian]

The casino part was heavy-handed in every way possible.  It seems clear to me now that the schtable boy (thank you, BeerFest) is going to be the feature of Johnson’s upcoming trilogy.

I still don't understand why schtable boy (love that) was shoved at us so hard.

[Limey]

I still don't understand why schtable boy (love that) was shoved at us so hard.

Johnson has three movies to write - apparently about non-Skywalkers - so now we know where Ep X starts, on fucking Canto Bight, with a young Anakin schtable boy - enslaved and looking after his owner's pod racers horses - who gets the opportunity to use his innate force skills to escape from bondage.

Also Rose.

[BUWebguy]

Johnson has three movies to write - apparently about non-Skywalkers - so now we know where Ep X starts, on fucking Canto Bight, with a young Anakin schtable boy - enslaved and looking after his owner's pod racers horses - who gets the opportunity to use his innate force skills to escape from bondage.

Also Rose.

Is Johnson's trilogy going to be episodes 10-11-12? I thought the episodes part was going to end with 9 as the end of the Skywalker saga, but I can't remember if I read that expressly or just assumed it.

[Limey]

Is Johnson's trilogy going to be episodes 10-11-12? I thought the episodes part was going to end with 9 as the end of the Skywalker saga, but I can't remember if I read that expressly or just assumed it.

Perhaps they will reset to 1 if they aren't going with the "Star Wars:  Sub-Title" format. 

[moriartp]

I still don't understand why schtable boy (love that) was shoved at us so hard.

I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he has anything to do with the other trilogy. I think it was Johnson putting theme ahead of story again (the Force is eternal, it doesn’t belong to the Skywalker clan or the Jedi, and it can emerge where you least expect it). It was, of course, hamfisted. And it actually pisses me off because I thought the ending on the Falcon was perfect.

[Limey]

I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he has anything to do with the other trilogy. I think it was Johnson putting theme ahead of story again (the Force is eternal, it doesn’t belong to the Skywalker clan or the Jedi, and it can emerge where you least expect it). It was, of course, hamfisted. And it actually pisses me off because I thought the ending on the Falcon was perfect.

Of course, we're all trying to attach significance to story elements from Ep VIII when, at the time it came out, Ep IX hadn't even been outlined.

[Bench]

I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he has anything to do with the other trilogy. I think it was Johnson putting theme ahead of story again (the Force is eternal, it doesn’t belong to the Skywalker clan or the Jedi, and it can emerge where you least expect it). It was, of course, hamfisted. And it actually pisses me off because I thought the ending on the Falcon was perfect.

I too understood Johnson's next trilogy to be entirely independent of the trilogy of trilogies and spinoffs.

[Jacksonian]

I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he has anything to do with the other trilogy. I think it was Johnson putting theme ahead of story again (the Force is eternal, it doesn’t belong to the Skywalker clan or the Jedi, and it can emerge where you least expect it). It was, of course, hamfisted. And it actually pisses me off because I thought the ending on the Falcon was perfect.

I thought Lucas made it perfectly clear in the original movie that anyone can have force powers.

[Limey]

I thought Lucas made it perfectly clear in the original movie that anyone can have force powers.

The alternative - that it's only passed down through birth - puts us in a chicken-egg conundrum.

However, there's a creepy, bordering on blasphemous, element in Ep I that hints at Anakin being sired by the Force in some sort of immaculate conception.  That explains the origin of the Skywalker Force lineage, but not of all the existing Jedi.  So...yeah.  No idea.

[Jacksonian]

The alternative - that it's only passed down through birth - puts us in a chicken-egg conundrum.

However, there's a creepy, bordering on blasphemous, element in Ep I that hints at Anakin being sired by the Force in some sort of immaculate conception.  That explains the origin of the Skywalker Force lineage, but not of all the existing Jedi.  So...yeah.  No idea.

Lucas did have Obi Wan imply that because Anakin had the force then Luke had the force.  But did not talk about that being the only way.  Obi Wan had it.  No talk of passing it down to him.  1000 generations of Jedi.  That wasn't just some incestuous group.

This is really DisneyLucasFilm wanting to separate Star Wars from Skywalker.

[moriartp]

It’s always been clear the Force isn’t purely a matter of inheritance. I’m just saying Johnson was trying to reiterate the theme expressed in Luke’s little speech: “[the] Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity.”

ETA: this is perfectly consistent with Lucas’ stories. A central premise of the prequel trilogy is that the Jedi Order was a decaying institution and was out of touch with the nature of the Force.

[MusicMan]

The alternative - that it's only passed down through birth - puts us in a chicken-egg conundrum.

However, there's a creepy, bordering on blasphemous, element in Ep I that hints at Anakin being sired by the Force in some sort of immaculate conception.  That explains the origin of the Skywalker Force lineage, but not of all the existing Jedi.  So...yeah.  No idea.

I believe the implications were that Palpatine manipulated midichlorians to, essentially, breed Anakin.


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[Jacksonian]

I believe the implications were that Palpatine manipulated midichlorians to, essentially, breed Anakin.


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When was that implied within the movies?

[moriartp]

When was that implied within the movies?

Some people see the “Darth Plagueis the Wise” scene that way. It’s a fair theory, but I don’t subscribe to it myself.

[Jacksonian]

Some people see the “Darth Plagueis the Wise” scene that way. It’s a fair theory, but I don’t subscribe to it myself.

I'd have to hear it from Lucas as his intention to believe it.

[moriartp]

Same. I’ve always thought Palpatine was bullshitting there.

Here I am in 2019 talking Star Wars theories on a forum. It’s 2004 all over again. Time is a flat circle.

[Limey]

I'd have to hear it from Lucas as his intention to believe it.

It's not like he is known for the use of subtlety and nuance in his movie-making.  "Inferred", in Lucas' mind, means a character said it out loud, in front of a green screen.

[drew corleone]

It’s always been clear the Force isn’t purely a matter of inheritance. I’m just saying Johnson was trying to reiterate the theme expressed in Luke’s little speech: “[the] Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity.”

ETA: this is perfectly consistent with Lucas’ stories. A central premise of the prequel trilogy is that the Jedi Order was a decaying institution and was out of touch with the nature of the Force.

I looked at it as being similar to the Potterverse, where you had both established families with pure blood lineages that go back generations, ala the Malfoys and Blacks, as well as those filthy mudbloods that sprang up out of nowhere.

[MusicMan]

I'd have to hear it from Lucas as his intention to believe it.

Well, just wait a while. George does a good job of changing what his intentions were.


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[BUWebguy]

I believe the implications were that Palpatine manipulated midichlorians to, essentially, breed Anakin.

It's been more obviously implied in a recent comic book (which is considered to be canon):
https://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/12/21/star-wars-darth-vader-anakin-skywalker-father-palpatine/

[Tom Servo]

https://imgflip.com/i/2rhcpx

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

He's your only Hispanic actor, and his character wasn't like that in 7.

As you noted part of Rose's role was to pander to an Asian audience.  That's insulting if not racist.  Too, as you note she's useless to the primary plot.  They have one African actress (voice for CGI).  She's given minimal time on screen and only related to the useless subplot.  One African actor.  Let's start him off as comic relief and then send him too on the useless subplot.

Every actor of color is useless to plot resolution.

You have to remember it all took place before the civil rights movement.

[Jacksonian]

The next movie's peek just surfaced from Star Wars celebration.  The title will be The Rise of Skywalker.  Spoilers, maybe.

If I understood correctly what I saw it's more like Retcon of Last Jedi. 
Oh, and Palpatine is back.

[Limey]

The next movie's peek just surfaced from Star Wars celebration.  The title will be The Rise of Skywalker.  Spoilers, maybe.

If I understood correctly what I saw it's more like Retcon of Last Jedi. 
Oh, and Palpatine is back.

It also said it was the "end of the saga", which is weird, because I thought the last movie pretty much killed it.

[moriartp]

If I understood correctly what I saw it's more like Retcon of Last Jedi.

That’s how I saw it too. Looks like a complete 180.

[Jacksonian]

It also said it was the "end of the saga", which is weird, because I thought the last movie pretty much killed it.

Star Wars, Episode IX: The Search For More Money

[MusicMan]

It also said it was the "end of the saga", which is weird, because I thought the last movie pretty much killed it.

WFW


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[Limey]

Star Wars, Episode IX: The Search For More Money

The Last...Star Wars movie you’ll pay to see at a theater. 

[Limey]

FYI, the music, I believe, is Leia’s theme. 

[MusicMan]

FYI, the music, I believe, is Leia’s theme.

A form of it - I think they change it closer to the end.


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[moriartp]

A form of it - I think they change it closer to the end.

It’s definitely “trailer music”–ified like they did with the Force theme in the Force Awakens trailer and Rey’s theme in the TLJ trailer.

[Limey]

If I understood correctly what I saw it's more like Retcon of Last Jedi. 

It's still Rian Johnson, right?  So, considering he Retconned virtually the entire Star Wars universe in TLJ - notably ignoring most of the intentionally dangling plot threads from TFW - it stands to reason that he doesn't feel the need to follow straight on from the last movie (or any of them).

[Jacksonian]

It's still Rian Johnson, right?  So, considering he Retconned virtually the entire Star Wars universe in TLJ - notably ignoring most of the intentionally dangling plot threads from TFW - it stands to reason that he doesn't feel the need to follow straight on from the last movie (or any of them).

Abrams is helming this one.

[MusicMan]

It's still Rian Johnson, right?  So, considering he Retconned virtually the entire Star Wars universe in TLJ - notably ignoring most of the intentionally dangling plot threads from TFW - it stands to reason that he doesn't feel the need to follow straight on from the last movie (or any of them).

No, this ones back to JJ.


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[subnuclear]

Just watched a 10 minute to explain the teaser trailer to me. Feel like a graduate student reading Ulysses.

[Limey]

Disney has announced that this will be the last movie in the main “Star Wars” narrative for a while.  Apparently it has dawned on them that you have to, you know, plan more than no movies ahead. 

[Nate in IA]

Well, they had announced last year that they had someone working on a completely new arc...   Have to see if I can find the reference.

[Limey]

It’s so weird that Disney got the MCU mostly right, but completely shit the bed when handed an established, wildly successful franchise. 

[Nate in IA]

It’s so weird that Disney got the MCU mostly right, but completely shit the bed when handed an established, wildly successful franchise.

Yeah, I can't quite figure that one out.   Though to be honest, Episodes 1 - 3 proved that maybe George Lucas caught lightning in a bottle when he came up with the original trilogy.     I think it's that there really is nothing new in the universe.. we're just finding other details of characters we already knew.    Maybe the 'evil' wasn't big enough in the latest movies. 

That said, it appears that Disney is taking the best of Star Wars and putting it into both parks.    That looks fantastic.

[Limey]

Yeah, I can't quite figure that one out.   Though to be honest, Episodes 1 - 3 proved that maybe George Lucas caught lightning in a bottle when he came up with the original trilogy.     I think it's that there really is nothing new in the universe.. we're just finding other details of characters we already knew.    Maybe the 'evil' wasn't big enough in the latest movies. 

That said, it appears that Disney is taking the best of Star Wars and putting it into both parks.    That looks fantastic.

Well 7 was a copy of 4, which was forgivable as it had been so long since the last movie.  But then Johnson just trashed the platform that Abrams had set (arguably even trashing the platform that Lucas had set), while exacerbating far beyond the point of forgiveness the main character flaw with Rey: that’s she’s better than everyone at everything for absolutely no reason.

[TeeJoe]

It’s so weird that Disney got the MCU mostly right, but completely shit the bed when handed an established, wildly successful franchise.

Marvel had Kevin Feige to keep a vision that had already started before Disney.  Disneys contribution was to keep out of Feige's way.

[TeeJoe]

Well, they had announced last year that they had someone working on a completely new arc...   Have to see if I can find the reference.

I think the new arc is helmed by Rian Johnson. I petty much hated what he did with Last Jedi, so yay or something.
https://sciencefiction.com/2018/09/04/yes-rian-johnson-still-making-star-wars-trilogy/

[Nate in IA]

I think the new arc is helmed by Rian Johnson. I petty much hated what he did with Last Jedi, so yay or something.
https://sciencefiction.com/2018/09/04/yes-rian-johnson-still-making-star-wars-trilogy/

Yeah, that is what I was looking for.    I'm going to reserve judgement on the new story arc...   The 'cartoons' that they made DisneyXD were really good so there's hope yet.

[TeeJoe]

Yeah, that is what I was looking for.    I'm going to reserve judgement on the new story arc...   The 'cartoons' that they made DisneyXD were really good so there's hope yet.

I'm sure I'll be watching at least the 1st of the new arc. Johnson needs to do better than Last Jedi to hold my attendance for any others though.

Agreed on the cartoons...Clone Wars was for the most part was really good to great (Cartoon Network). Rebels was excellent (Disney XD). My kids are teenagers now so we've never got into Resistance.

[Limey]

So there are no more Star Wars stories (of any ilk) scheduled after Ep IX.  Johnson's new arc is still moving in theory, but there's not even a year set for it (rumors say 2021).  Yes, there are TV franchises coming soon, and it will be interesting to see if they get traction.

Meanwhile, Star Trek 4 has been cancelled, which means we may have seen the end of the Kelvin timeline at least for a while.  "Discovery" coming back underneath the original timeline doesn't help its cause either.  You could see CBS rolling up to the original series and then spinning off movies from there (I have not yet seen any of Discovery season 2, so please don't spoil any of that and forgive any incorrect assumptions here).

So JJ is struggling to not be 0-2 in his reboots of classic franchises.  Conversely, Marvel managed to reboot about a dozen franchises / characters - while making a box office smash out of a bunch of idiots that almost no one had heard of - which puts the struggles of the Star-franchises into more stark relief.  Maybe he should just call the next one "Star Trek: Cloverfield" and be done with it.

[drew corleone]

Marvel also had the foresight to develop an outline for all of these individuals to build a cohesive story and universe, as opposed to Kennedy, who told Abrams and Johnson to take the world's most valuable film franchise and essentially enact the creative writing exercise where one person starts a story and another one picks it up and so on... except it wasn't an exercise.

[TeeJoe]

Marvel also had the foresight to develop an outline for all of these individuals to build a cohesive story and universe, as opposed to Kennedy, who told Abrams and Johnson to take the world's most valuable film franchise and essentially enact the creative writing exercise where one person starts a story and another one picks it up and so on... except it wasn't an exercise.

...and ended up sounding like a Mad Libs story...

[MusicMan]

I think JJ’s lane is clearly established at this point. If you ask him to reboot something, or start up a really cool concept, you’re in good hands. If you ask him to see it any further than that first step, you’re in deep trouble.


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[Astros Fan in Big D]

I think JJ’s lane is clearly established at this point. If you ask him to reboot something, or start up a really cool concept, you’re in good hands. If you ask him to see it any further than that first step, you’re in deep trouble.


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Well it's not as though he didn't show us that in Lost.

[MusicMan]

JJ: there’s more to come on Rey’s parents

/HadesGodFuckingDammit.gif


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[Limey]

JJ: there’s more to come on Rey’s parents

/HadesGodFuckingDammit.gif

One of my contemporaneous guesses - because Rey's parents being a couple of drunk, junk traders was a little jarring after the build up from Ep VII - was that Kylo was lying just to piss her off and draw her in.  Regardless of what Johnson intended (considering he shredded pretty much everything else, one assumes his intention was the no-nothing parents thing to be true too), this is the easy fix.  It can be done with a single line of dialog...from Luke's force ghost.

They need to show us why she's instantly better at anything she touches than anyone else who may have years of training / experience.  The list of examples is endless, but she:
- flew the Falcon like she'd been born to it (eh? oh)
- fixed the Falcon when Han couldn't
- bested Kylo in Jedi mind control
- bested Kylo in a light sabre fight (Kylo was injured by a blast from Chewie's bowcaster)
- bested Luke in a light sabre fight
- resisted the dark side (somehow) when even Luke couldn't first time
- bested Snoke's guards in the throne room fight, including saving Kylo's ass
- blasted Tie fighters out of the air from the Falcon, including a three-for-one shot with her first fucking shot

Seriously.  It's annoying.  She has no arc, even through two movies.  She appeared from nowhere and proceeded simply to succeed at anything and everything to which she turned her hand.  She has never failed and her only emotional challenge has been the loss of Solo, who she barely knew and got over instantly after being consoled by Solo's ex-wife.  Again, Marvel has kicked the shit out of Lucasfilm when it comes to nuanced and challenged female characters.

[Limey]

Also, Episode IX story arc, according to the canon as laid down by Rian Johnson:

A giant, galaxy-killing First Order spaceship looms over us onto the screen.  BB-8 puts Poe's X-Wing on autopilot, and hyperspaces right through the middle of it.  Poe has a sad for his lost droid.  Chewie still doesn't get a medal.  The end.

[Jacksonian]

JJ: there’s more to come on Rey’s parents

/HadesGodFuckingDammit.gif


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The consequences of completely fucking up the franchise with a single movie.

[Jacksonian]

One of my contemporaneous guesses - because Rey's parents being a couple of drunk, junk traders was a little jarring after the build up from Ep VII - was that Kylo was lying just to piss her off and draw her in.  Regardless of what Johnson intended (considering he shredded pretty much everything else, one assumes his intention was the no-nothing parents thing to be true too), this is the easy fix.  It can be done with a single line of dialog...from Luke's force ghost.

They need to show us why she's instantly better at anything she touches than anyone else who may have years of training / experience.  The list of examples is endless, but she:
- flew the Falcon like she'd been born to it (eh? oh)
- fixed the Falcon when Han couldn't
- bested Kylo in Jedi mind control
- bested Kylo in a light sabre fight (Kylo was injured by a blast from Chewie's bowcaster)
- bested Luke in a light sabre fight
- resisted the dark side (somehow) when even Luke couldn't first time
- bested Snoke's guards in the throne room fight, including saving Kylo's ass
- blasted Tie fighters out of the air from the Falcon, including a three-for-one shot with her first fucking shot

Seriously.  It's annoying.  She has no arc, even through two movies.  She appeared from nowhere and proceeded simply to succeed at anything and everything to which she turned her hand.  She has never failed and her only emotional challenge has been the loss of Solo, who she barely knew and got over instantly after being consoled by Solo's ex-wife.  Again, Marvel has kicked the shit out of Lucasfilm when it comes to nuanced and challenged female characters.

To me they should have gone right down the middle with this trilogy.  Simple, fulfilling fanboy expectation continuation/conclusion of the Skywalker family saga.  Then used the Star Wars stories to expand and push the envelope of the story telling of this universe.  But, you're right.  Without a coherent story arc pre-planned and ready for execution, ala Marvel, it's a mess.  This would have to be something future execs and producers look at as to how to avoid a disaster in this type of movie making (add the DCEU as well) especially as compared to Marvel.

[Nate in IA]

One of my contemporaneous guesses - because Rey's parents being a couple of drunk, junk traders was a little jarring after the build up from Ep VII - was that Kylo was lying just to piss her off and draw her in.  Regardless of what Johnson intended (considering he shredded pretty much everything else, one assumes his intention was the no-nothing parents thing to be true too), this is the easy fix.  It can be done with a single line of dialog...from Luke's force ghost.

They need to show us why she's instantly better at anything she touches than anyone else who may have years of training / experience.  The list of examples is endless, but she:
- flew the Falcon like she'd been born to it (eh? oh)
- fixed the Falcon when Han couldn't
- bested Kylo in Jedi mind control
- bested Kylo in a light sabre fight (Kylo was injured by a blast from Chewie's bowcaster)
- bested Luke in a light sabre fight
- resisted the dark side (somehow) when even Luke couldn't first time
- bested Snoke's guards in the throne room fight, including saving Kylo's ass
- blasted Tie fighters out of the air from the Falcon, including a three-for-one shot with her first fucking shot

Seriously.  It's annoying.  She has no arc, even through two movies.  She appeared from nowhere and proceeded simply to succeed at anything and everything to which she turned her hand.  She has never failed and her only emotional challenge has been the loss of Solo, who she barely knew and got over instantly after being consoled by Solo's ex-wife.  Again, Marvel has kicked the shit out of Lucasfilm when it comes to nuanced and challenged female characters.

Amen.    I think the 'zietgiest' of modern storytelling bit them in the ass this time.   We simply don't care about what happens to Rey because she's SuperGirl.      Don't forget she found Luke when no other Jedi had ever even sniffed his whereabouts.    It would not bother me in the least if she were summarily dismissed from the story arc.

The initial trilogy worked because these characters were all flawed in one way or another and in that we recognized ourselves.    This is what ALL good storytelling does.   Even if the character is a superhero.. if they have human flaws, we can easily see ourselves in their place.

[drew corleone]

They should just scrap the ST and start over... scrap the PT while they're at it. Reboots are all the rage these days.

[MusicMan]

Rey found Luke because Poe gave her the map, not because of any ability.


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[Limey]

Rey found Luke because Poe gave her the map, not because of any ability.

...after R2 just magically awoke from years in a droid-coma with the other 99% of the map.  🙄

[Bench]

...after R2 just magically awoke from years in a droid-coma with the other 99% of the map.  🙄

But he actually is special

[das]

...after R2 just magically awoke from years in a droid-coma with the other 99% of the map.  🙄

With all my fanboi might, I was never able to reconcile in my mind how that happened.  Best I could come up with was Yoda and the other deceased Jedi braintrust willed it to happen to wake up the slumbering Luke. It’s a pretty unsatisfying rationale though.

[moriartp]

With all my fanboi might, I was never able to reconcile in my mind how that happened.  Best I could come up with was Yoda and the other deceased Jedi braintrust willed it to happen to wake up the slumbering Luke. It’s a pretty unsatisfying rationale though.

It's so inexplicably stupid. There were a thousand better ways to do the map thing.

[Limey]

It's so inexplicably stupid. There were a thousand better ways to do the map thing.

Like just have BB-8 carry the entire map.  Giving the bulk of it the R2 was just lazy writing and pandering; you know, like the rest of the movie (e.g. Han just showing up, along with competing creditors, and a couple of monsters that instant-kill everyone except the heroes).