Rule Changes

[Bench]

It appears that MLB and the MLBPA might actually agree to do away with having to actually throw four balls for an intentional walk as a way to "speed up the game."  I haven't followed the story exhaustively, but of the articles I've read I haven't seen any actual data regarding how much time would be saved.  It seems negligible to me based on nothing but reckoning; a solution in search of a problem.  Has anyone found in actual data regarding the potential benefit?

I have a vague recollection of Mike Gallo losing a tie game in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings on a wild pitch on an intentional walk to load the bases.  Mostly my recollection is of bewildered rage, but I think that's what it traces back to.  It would be a shame to rob fans of such great emotional moments - like Gallo fucking up the unfuckable or the classic fake IBB strike which is also a lot of fun - just to shave a few meaningless seconds. 

[Fredia]

no actual data but if i recall a few hits have come from the intentional walk.

[chuck]

Or Cabrera slapping an RBI single into right center.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

It appears that MLB and the MLBPA might actually agree to do away with having to actually throw four balls for an intentional walk as a way to "speed up the game."  I haven't followed the story exhaustively, but of the articles I've read I haven't seen any actual data regarding how much time would be saved.  It seems negligible to me based on nothing but reckoning; a solution in search of a problem.  Has anyone found in actual data regarding the potential benefit?

I have a vague recollection of Mike Gallo losing a tie game in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings on a wild pitch on an intentional walk to load the bases.  Mostly my recollection is of bewildered rage, but I think that's what it traces back to.  It would be a shame to rob fans of such great emotional moments - like Gallo fucking up the unfuckable or the classic fake IBB strike which is also a lot of fun - just to shave a few meaningless seconds.

I believe this falls under "pace of game" rather than "speed of game" adjustments. I don't like it, myself. Particularly  with a runner on third or if a reliever's just come into a game.

[Duke]

I vaguely remember Johnny Bench striking out on a IBB in the world series.  I think it was against the A's and he had worked a full count with ducks on.  The A's acted like they would put him on then threw a strike and he went down swinging.  I loved it because I hated the Reds.  Anyone else recall the details?

[BUWebguy]

From this story:

932 intentional walks in 2,428 games last season. A baseball game is now, on average, 1.5 pitches shorter.

Intentional walks took an estimated 1410 minutes in 2016.  That is 35 seconds per game.

[Fredia]

I can not begin to imagine what I would do with all that time

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Games do drag on but mainly due to longer and more frequent commercial breaks, followed by indecisive replay reviewers,  and not so much due to players fidgeting around on the mound or at the plate.

[austro]

I vaguely remember Johnny Bench striking out on a IBB in the world series.  I think it was against the A's and he had worked a full count with ducks on.  The A's acted like they would put him on then threw a strike and he went down swinging.  I loved it because I hated the Reds.  Anyone else recall the details?

That is how I remember it. Except that I don't even think he swung at it.

[austro]

Games do drag on but mainly due to longer and more frequent commercial breaks, followed by indecisive replay reviewers,  and not so much due to players fidgeting around on the mound or at the plate.

Yeah, the only way they make a significant impact is by cutting down on commercials. Good luck with that.

[JimR]

A solution without a problem.

Anyone who thinks a baseball game is too slow or too long does not like baseball.

[Fredia]

AMEN  preaching to the chior

[VirtualBob]

A solution without a problem.

Anyone who thinks a baseball game is too slow or too long does not like baseball.

Could be worse. Could be cricket.

[Tonywatson]

A solution without a problem.

Anyone who thinks a baseball game is too slow or too long does not like baseball.

Jim, with all due respect, I would disagree, at least from a tv aspect. I watch 140 plus Astros games a year and have been a fan since 1975. I rarely watch one live on TV because it just takes way too long. I'll start a night game about 830 or 9 and fast forward through pitching changes, commercials and long scratch and sniffs off the mound and batters box.

Changing IBB isn't going to help speed much up but I can appreciate they are trying something. Keeping the batters in the box and the pitchers on the mound are the only real ways to make progress, and that's hard to get accomplished.

Watch an old game on MLB network or something from the 70's or 60's and you'll see the pace of the game much quicker.


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[juliogotay]

Jim, with all due respect, I would disagree, at least from a tv aspect. I watch 140 plus Astros games a year and have been a fan since 1975. I rarely watch one live on TV because it just takes way too long. I'll start a night game about 830 or 9 and fast forward through pitching changes, commercials and long scratch and sniffs off the mound and batters box.

Changing IBB isn't going to help speed much up but I can appreciate they are trying something. Keeping the batters in the box and the pitchers on the mound are the only real ways to make progress, and that's hard to get accomplished.

Watch an old game on MLB network or something from the 70's or 60's and you'll see the pace of the game much quicker.


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I liked baseball as much in the '60s and '70s. What do they have to do to get back there w/o enacting legislative non-sense? Obviously the IBB change is window dressing. They have enacted a clock on the pitchers. I think there is much more offense now and batters taking more pitches.
Astros games began at 7:30 when I was a kid and ended around 10.

[Tonywatson]

Yes and now they start at 7:05 and get through after 10. I have to add an hour to my DVR every night and part of it is almost always used it seems.


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[bubba]

If you think baseball games are too long, watch basketball or football. The lack of timing is the magic of baseball and separates from other sports.

[JimR]

I have been watching baseball almost 25 years longer than you, Tony. You are describing the effects of time zone difference, start time, TV, commercials, and replay more than the pace of the game. No doubt the proliferation of relief pitchers and elaborate between pitch routines slow the game down, but the suggestion the IBB change is a time-saving measure is ludicrous.

[Tonywatson]

I never said the IBB was going to change anything. I couldn't care less if they eliminate the pitches or not. You can call it what you want, but the games are definitely longer and move slower than 30-40 years ago. It's part of why it's harder to get newer fans. Football games are longer too with more commercials but there's more action so that appeals to many. As for me, I'm the biggest Astros fan I know and I will watch every game I can on tv (I don't live near Houston), but I will seldom watch a game (or any TV program period) live because it moves too slow.


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[MusicMan]

I never said the IBB was going to change anything. I couldn't care less if they eliminate the pitches or not. You can call it what you want, but the games are definitely longer and move slower than 30-40 years ago. It's part of why it's harder to get newer fans. Football games are longer too with more commercials but there's more action so that appeals to many. As for me, I'm the biggest Astros fan I know and I will watch every game I can on tv (I don't live near Houston), but I will seldom watch a game (or any TV program period) live because it moves too slow.


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There is not more action in a football game. Its popularity soared because it requires less attention, appeals to basic instincts toward violence, and is easy to gamble on.


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[Navin R Johnson]

Toe the rubber and pitch.  Get in the fucking box and hit.   THAT is the issue.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Toe the rubber and pitch.  Get in the fucking box and hit.   THAT is the issue.

One of the reasons I was a fan of Mark Buehrle was cause he didn't fuck around. In 2014 he averaged 15.8 seconds between pitches--2.1 seconds quicker than the next guy. Games under 2 hours were commonplace when he pitched.

[Aussie Astro]

Could be worse. Could be cricket.

Cricket has been described as organized loafing.

[Nate Colbert]

Toe the rubber and pitch.  Get in the fucking box and hit.   THAT is the issue.

Agreed. I have zero problem with a pitch clock.

[Reuben]

Agreed. I have zero problem with a pitch clock.

They were testing the 20-second pitch clock in AAA two years ago. What's become of that?

[moriartp]

I'm curious—not that MLB should go anywhere near it—about Bill James's theorized "active baseball" without a balk rule. If the Skeeters played a game or two like that, you can bet I'd buy tickets.

I'm very much in the "don't fuck with baseball" camp for MLB, but the semi-pro leagues should be as creative as they can. I'd also like to see a game under Massachusetts Rules at some point, but that might be a pipe dream.

[Nate Colbert]

They were testing the 20-second pitch clock in AAA two years ago. What's become of that?

It's still in use.

[Mr. Happy]

There is not more action in a football game. Its popularity soared because it requires less attention, appeals to basic instincts toward violence, and is easy to gamble on.


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This. Is. Spot. On. I used to piss off the football players at LSU by telling them that football really was an easy game. All you have to do is eat and run forward. And the one that eats the most wins. That really chapped their asses.

[JimR]

I never said the IBB was going to change anything. I couldn't care less if they eliminate the pitches or not. You can call it what you want, but the games are definitely longer and move slower than 30-40 years ago. It's part of why it's harder to get newer fans. Football games are longer too with more commercials but there's more action so that appeals to many. As for me, I'm the biggest Astros fan I know and I will watch every game I can on tv (I don't live near Houston), but I will seldom watch a game (or any TV program period) live because it moves too slow.


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If you will not actually go to a game and watch it live, you are not a fan of the game.

[Tonywatson]

If you will not actually go to a game and watch it live, you are not a fan of the game.

I would go to a bunch of games if I lived anywhere near Houston. We make the journey to Houston about once a year and a time or two to Arlington when Astros are in town. Being at the game is definitely different, as I've already stated.


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[juliogotay]

One of the reasons I was a fan of Mark Buehrle was cause he didn't fuck around. In 2014 he averaged 15.8 seconds between pitches--2.1 seconds quicker than the next guy. Games under 2 hours were commonplace when he pitched.

so, if Buerhle threw 100 pitches he saved less than four minutes over the average bear. So I am not sure where the sub 2-hr. game came from unless his pace caused every other pitcher, on both sides, to work faster.

[Ty in Tampa]

If they shorten the games, it will only be to add more commercials. They don't care to shorten the 3-4 hour window, they care to make more money.

[chuck]

If you will not actually go to a game and watch it live, you are not a fan of the game.

I myself am most certainly a fan of the game which is precisely why I find it so difficult to attend major league games in person anymore.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

so, if Buerhle threw 100 pitches he saved less than four minutes over the average bear. So I am not sure where the sub 2-hr. game came from unless his pace caused every other pitcher, on both sides, to work faster.

The average bear was not mentioned, just the gap between fastest bear and the second fastest bear.

[Fredia]

did the cubs finally reach puberty?

[JimR]

Many of you and I are very different. Surprise, surprise. I do not look at my watch during games. There is no clock. Games last 9 innings.

[bubba]

Thank you, Jim. You either love baseball or you don't. The pace of the game is all part of it.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I think it's is possible to love baseball and still want the other team's pitchers and hitters to step it up a bit.

[chuck]

I could give a fuck how long the games last.

[JimR]

I think it's is possible to love baseball and still want the other team's pitchers and hitters to step it up a bit.

Why? Do you have a train to catch or someplace more important to be? If you are in a hurry, go. Baseball is not for you.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Why? Do you have a train to catch or someplace more important to be? If you are in a hurry, go. Baseball is not for you.

I never realized my favoring a quicker paced ballgame over a slower pace was indicative of baseball not being for me. Thanks for pointing that out. I must make an effort to not favor a style of play over another.

[VirtualBob]

I never realized my favoring a quicker paced ballgame over a slower pace was indicative of baseball not being for me. Thanks for pointing that out. I must make an effort to not favor a style of play over another.

Why can't we all be more like Jim?

[VirtualBob]

Why? Do you have a train to catch or someplace more important to be? If you are in a hurry, go. Baseball is not for you.

WFW

[HudsonHawk]

There is not more action in a football game. Its popularity soared because it requires less attention, appeals to basic instincts toward violence, and is easy to gamble on.


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The average NFL game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes. The average length of time the ball is actually in play is just under 11 minutes. That means of the 192 minutes of "game time", about 6% of it is "action".

[JimR]

Why can't we all be more like Jim?

Because no one wants to be.

[MusicMan]

That means of the 192 minutes of "game time", about 6% of it is "action".

High school boys are impressed by this.

[Waldo]

Why? Do you have a train to catch or someplace more important to be? If you are in a hurry, go. Baseball is not for you.

I don't mind the length of baseball games.  I am more exhausted by 3-hour basketball games and 4-hour football games.  But if there is inaction merely for inaction's sake during a baseball game, what's the harm in trying to reduce it?  (BTW, I don't think the IBB rule is the right answer to that.)

[Navin R Johnson]

Football is different.  It is a once a week event.  If the Astros only played once a week I'd be lobbying for 18 inning games.

The length of the game isn't bothersome to me, it is all the dicking around they let pitchers and hitters get away with, and the back to back to back to back pitching changes. 

[BlownRanger]

I vaguely remember Johnny Bench striking out on a IBB in the world series.  I think it was against the A's and he had worked a full count with ducks on.  The A's acted like they would put him on then threw a strike and he went down swinging.  I loved it because I hated the Reds.  Anyone else recall the details?

It was Game 3 of the '72 Series, and Austro is correct that Bench looked at strike three.

What is rarely mentioned is what transpired in the TV broadcast booth.  Monte Moore was the A's pbp guy and was sitting in with Curt Gowdy and Tony Kubek.  When Dick Williams went to the mound and gestured toward first base, Kubek said "Monte, don't the A's have a play where they act like they're going to walk the batter, then try to sneak a strike by him?"   Moore and Gowdy chuckled, and Moore said "If they do, Tony, I'm unaware of it".  After the A's pulled it off, there was prolonged silence in the booth until Gowdy said "Tony, you can now mount up and ride triumphantly into the sunset".

[HudsonHawk]

High school boys are impressed by this.

11 minutes of "action" may translate to the greatest night of your life.

[HudsonHawk]

Football is different.  It is a once a week event.  If the Astros only played once a week I'd be lobbying for 18 inning games.

The length of the game isn't bothersome to me, it is all the dicking around they let pitchers and hitters get away with, and the back to back to back to back pitching changes.

I enjoy a nice crisp 1 hr and 56 minute 2-1 game as much as the next guy, but I don't obsess over the length of games. If intentionally walking a batter or two extends the game by four minutes, it doesnt lessen my enjoyment. I agree about all the fussing between pitches. Get the ball and toe the rubber. If you're at bat, get in the fucking box and hit. I still wonder why modern science can't invent Velcro that will stay attached for more than one pitch, especially if you don't swing the bat.

[BlownRanger]

I enjoy a nice crisp 1 hr and 56 minute 2-1 game as much as the next guy, but I don't obsess over the length of games. If intentionally walking a batter or two extends the game by four minutes, it doesnt lessen my enjoyment. I agree about all the fussing between pitches. Get the ball and toe the rubber. If you're at bat, get in the fucking box and hit. I still wonder why modern science can't invent Velcro that will stay attached for more than one pitch, especially if you don't swing the bat.

Hitters would tell you that it's all part of the pre-pitch mental preparation, similar to a golfer's pre-swing routine.  That's bullshit of course, but that's what they'd say.

I've always thought that a factor that has greatly lengthened games (and for which there is no "fix") is the increased emphasis on "defensive" hitting.  Hitters are much more adept than they used to be at fighting off nasty pitches, resulting in WAY more foul balls than there used to be.  You see a lot more at-bats with double-digit pitch counts than you used to.

[HudsonHawk]

I've always thought that a factor that has greatly lengthened games (and for which there is no "fix") is the increased emphasis on "defensive" hitting.  Hitters are much more adept than they used to be at fighting off nasty pitches, resulting in WAY more foul balls than there used to be.  You see a lot more at-bats with double-digit pitch counts than you used to.

I agree that higher counts are more common, but I'm not sure it's a result of hitters getting too good at making contact. I think it's the opposite. More swings and misses and more strikeouts because there is *less* emphasis on being a good defensive hitter.

[Duke]

It was Game 3 of the '72 Series, and Austro is correct that Bench looked at strike three.

What is rarely mentioned is what transpired in the TV broadcast booth.  Monte Moore was the A's pbp guy and was sitting in with Curt Gowdy and Tony Kubek.  When Dick Williams went to the mound and gestured toward first base, Kubek said "Monte, don't the A's have a play where they act like they're going to walk the batter, then try to sneak a strike by him?"   Moore and Gowdy chuckled, and Moore said "If they do, Tony, I'm unaware of it".  After the A's pulled it off, there was prolonged silence in the booth until Gowdy said "Tony, you can now mount up and ride triumphantly into the sunset".

I remember that I freakin loved it.  I hated the Reds.

[Navin R Johnson]

It was Game 3 of the '72 Series, and Austro is correct that Bench looked at strike three.

What is rarely mentioned is what transpired in the TV broadcast booth.  Monte Moore was the A's pbp guy and was sitting in with Curt Gowdy and Tony Kubek.  When Dick Williams went to the mound and gestured toward first base, Kubek said "Monte, don't the A's have a play where they act like they're going to walk the batter, then try to sneak a strike by him?"   Moore and Gowdy chuckled, and Moore said "If they do, Tony, I'm unaware of it".  After the A's pulled it off, there was prolonged silence in the booth until Gowdy said "Tony, you can now mount up and ride triumphantly into the sunset".

I remember Tony Pena pulling this off something similar for the Astros one year.   

[Navin R Johnson]

I remember Tony Pena pulling this off something similar for the Astros one year.   

God I love the internet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYnNRLll310

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Heard the other day on the YES broadcast that one third of at bats in 2016 ended in either a K or a BB. This is the stuff that's yawn-inducing for me: the miles of minutes that stack up watching a game of catch. It's not about time but about how it's spent--whether the innings are soporific or stimulating.

It would not surprise me if Steve Trachsel's starts didn't end up being substantively longer than Oswalt's, but it was undeniably true that one was more likely to put you to sleep. Ditto a Keuchel start vs. a Fiers start.

I am excited to watch an Astros team this year that doesn't strike out as much as they have been lately, and I'm all about tightening and enforcing the pitch clock.

[Lefty]

The length of the game isn't bothersome to me, it is all the dicking around they let pitchers and hitters get away with, and the back to back to back to back pitching changes. 

It's not the length of the game, it's the pace.

Also, to me at least, slow moving games are a ton more noticeable when I'm watching on tv versus at the park.

[Navin R Johnson]

It's not the length of the game, it's the pace.

100% agree.

[roadrunner]

I really wish MLB and the players would figure out how to modify the process of pitching changes.  These are easily the slowest and most aggravating party of any game.  Bring back the bullpen carts and give the pitcher 3 warm-up pitches, tops.  There's no need for a slow 150 yard jog and then 7-10 warm-up pitches all for a commercial break.  I'm sure that screws up some of the TV contracts, but if they can figure out a way to make advertisers whole while cutting down the slow transition from one pitcher to another, I think you will immediately see a 10 minute change in average game time.

What other sport allows a player to substitute in, stop the game, and warm-up?