vp debate train wreck

[Fredia]

too many  speak overs  with each other to few facts and the monitor was not in control

[Knoxbanedoodle]

My wife and I didn't tune in until about halfway through, and we both thought it was a total ass-kicking on the part of Kaine. The autopsies were illuminating. It reads like he was someone else in the first half.

Also: we were listening to it in the car at first. I am struck again and again by how different the experience of a debate is when you remove the distraction of lights and faces. The old story about radio listeners vs. TV viewers of the Nixon/Kennedy debate makes so much sense to me.

[HudsonHawk]

My wife and I didn't tune in until about halfway through, and we both thought it was a total ass-kicking on the part of Kaine. The autopsies were illuminating. It reads like he was someone else in the first half.

Post-debate chest beating is just that.  Look at the Presidential debate...Trump supporters were bowled over at how he destroyed Hillary, so much so that it wasn't even a contest, and that even they were shocked at the heights of wisdom and "presidentialness"  the Donald was able to reach (we call this the "North Korea Effect").

[Knoxbanedoodle]

I don't mean the spin room bullshit. I mean the write-ups in NYT, Politico, fivethirtyeight etc. that gave Pence the edge on style points, for whatever that's worth.

[Jacksonian]

As someone who won't vote for either candidate, I thought Pence won.  But neither was bad.  Pence seemed to be better ready to debate.  Kaine seemed better ready to do an interview.  Not that this debate mattered at all.

At the same time if Kaine were at the top of the ticket I think he'd be leading by 20 points.

Too if Pence were at the top he'd be winning by 20 points.

[Limey]

PolitiFact evaluated 32 statements made by Kaine and Pence last night during the VP debate. Of 19 Kaine statements checked by PolitiFact, 15 were True or Mostly True (79%); Four of Pence's 13 statements were True or Mostly True (31%)

Link

[BudGirl]

Not sure why there is any fact checking.  People believe what they want. 

I'm ready to vote but early voting does not start until October 24.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

Not sure why there is any fact checking.  People believe what they want. 

Not everybody is in thrall to partisan divides.

Fact-checking is all the more important in the "post-fact" world.

And yeah, I can't vote against the carrot demon fast enough.

[Bench]

PolitiFact evaluated 32 statements made by Kaine and Pence last night during the VP debate. Of 19 Kaine statements checked by PolitiFact, 15 were True or Mostly True (79%); Four of Pence's 13 statements were True or Mostly True (31%)

Link

The problem with that PolitiFact evaluation is that Pence never said those statements that we all saw him say and were recorded for playback anytime.  By reading his statements back to him, you are engaging in insult-driven politics.   

[Limey]

The problem with that PolitiFact evaluation is that Pence never said those statements that we all saw him say and were recorded for playback anytime.  By reading his statements back to him, you are engaging in insult-driven politics.   

Apparently, Trump was tweeting insults at about the same time that Pence was denying that their campaign is insult-based.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I hate Hillary. I fear Trump.

[Limey]

I hate Hillary. I fear Trump.

You (actually, everyone) might want to read this piece from The Atlantic.  They have endorsed a candidate for President for only the third time in their 150-year history.

Hillary Rodham Clinton has more than earned, through her service to the country as first lady, as a senator from New York, and as secretary of state, the right to be taken seriously as a White House contender. She has flaws (some legitimately troubling, some exaggerated by her opponents), but she is among the most prepared candidates ever to seek the presidency. We are confident that she understands the role of the United States in the world; we have no doubt that she will apply herself assiduously to the problems confronting this country; and she has demonstrated an aptitude for analysis and hard work.

Donald Trump, on the other hand, has no record of public service and no qualifications for public office. His affect is that of an infomercial huckster; he traffics in conspiracy theories and racist invective; he is appallingly sexist; he is erratic, secretive, and xenophobic; he expresses admiration for authoritarian rulers, and evinces authoritarian tendencies himself. He is easily goaded, a poor quality for someone seeking control of America’s nuclear arsenal. He is an enemy of fact-based discourse; he is ignorant of, and indifferent to, the Constitution; he appears not to read.

Harumph!

[BudGirl]

I hate Hillary. I fear Trump.

I find you to be a reasonable person and I like you.  I'm just wondering why you hate Hillary. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I find you to be a reasonable person and I like you.  I'm just wondering why you hate Hillary.

I'm more reasonable than Hillary, but 'm still pretty unreasonable. I believe Hillary is a gifted opportunist that flails about haphazardly with poor to disastrous results. That just the tip. But I've never cared for the Clintons. Or the Bushes. Or the Obamas. Or the Trumps. Or the Cubans (not the People, the asshole). I find politics to be insipid but I'm still amused by the behavior that politics inspires. I have mentioned before I am sort of an enlightened anarchist.

[Phil_in_CS]

As someone who won't vote for either candidate, I thought Pence won.  But neither was bad.  Pence seemed to be better ready to debate.  Kaine seemed better ready to do an interview.  Not that this debate mattered at all.

At the same time if Kaine were at the top of the ticket I think he'd be leading by 20 points.

Too if Pence were at the top he'd be winning by 20 points.

As someone that won't vote for Trump or Clinton I didn't bother with their veep choices. I agree that just about anyone else in the nation would be leading by 20 points if they were on one of the two major party tickets.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

You (actually, everyone) might want to read this piece from The Atlantic.  They have endorsed a candidate for President for only the third time in their 150-year history.

Harumph!

Although it's been around 150 years the Atlantic has slightly less than 500,000 subscribers and 1.5 million Twitter followers.  Bruce Caitlyn Jenner has almost 4 million Twitter followers and he she supports Trump. That is fucked up and fucking indicative of the state of things. I was born here but you choose to live here you poor bastard.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

I was born here but you choose to live here you poor bastard.

I admire anyone who describes himself as "enlightened."

[MusicMan]

As someone that won't vote for Trump or Clinton I didn't bother with their veep choices.

Sure, why concern yourself with the VP choices of 2 candidates who are in their 70s AND extremely prone to scandal?


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[Limey]

Although it's been around 150 years the Atlantic has slightly less than 500,000 subscribers and 1.5 million Twitter followers.  Bruce Caitlyn Jenner has almost 4 million Twitter followers and he she supports Trump. That is fucked up and fucking indicative of the state of things. I was born here but you choose to live here you poor bastard.

Clearly, you haven't been following UK politics...

[Limey]

Sure, why concern yourself with the VP choices of 2 candidates who are in their 70s AND extremely prone to scandal?

Quite.  Clinton is so close to death that she may expire before Republicans have been able to impeach her (which is why they're already working on it).

[Bench]

You (actually, everyone) might want to read this piece from The Atlantic.  They have endorsed a candidate for President for only the third time in their 150-year history.

Harumph!

With just a little over a month until election day, Donald Trump has racked up zero major newspaper endorsements, a first for any major party nominee in American history.

But so far Trump has gotten no general election endorsements, a stunning development considering even Libertarian presidential candidate Gary Johnson, known best for his head-scratching “Aleppo moment,” has scored a few.

[chuck]

I'm just wondering why you hate Hillary.

I've been asking people this and oddly enough I have never received anything approximating a response. I know why I don't care for her. She's a hawkish, Wall Street conservative. I can't wait to see what sort of fucked up war she gets us into. The silver lining is she'll likely reshape the Supreme Court and maybe we'll see some much needed sanity over there for the next twenty years or so.

I read a thing a while back that demonstrated that any time she runs for anything (or any time her husband ran for anything) she generates an awful lot of antipathy. But once the dust clears and she gets down to work people recognize that she's a hard worker and generally a good one. I imagine that's what will happen when she becomes president. She'll do a pretty good job while annoying people on either extreme and things will carry right along.

But I would like someone to explain their hatred, if they truly harbor hatred. Is it because she killed Vince Foster, Ron Brown, those kids in Mena? I'd really like to know.

[Ron Brand]

I've been asking people this and oddly enough I have never received anything approximating a response.

But I would like someone to explain their hatred, if they truly harbor hatred.

I've asked this for years, beginning with her husband. I never got an answer other than hyperbole and bullshit talking points that were beaten into shivs, no matter how fevered and agitated the answerers were, or how convinced of the validity they held in their hard-trod path. More experienced folk might have finer-edged points to bring, but hair-splitting arguments of wonk work doesn't explain the frothing hatred.

[Phil_in_CS]

Sure, why concern yourself with the VP choices of 2 candidates who are in their 70s AND extremely prone to scandal?


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I practice stoicism, and this falls into the category of don't worry too much about things you can't change. Either of the replacements would be a large improvement, and either would be an at least average president rather than a disaster.  Neither one's performance could possibly make me want to vote for their boss.

[MusicMan]

I practice stoicism

This goes without saying for any longtime Astros fan.


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[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I've asked this for years, beginning with her husband. I never got an answer other than hyperbole and bullshit talking points that were beaten into shivs, no matter how fevered and agitated the answerers were, or how convinced of the validity they held in their hard-trod path. More experienced folk might have finer-edged points to bring, but hair-splitting arguments of wonk work doesn't explain the frothing hatred.

It's 2016. Just Google it do a generic web search for "why people hate Hillary," man. Then use your inherent built-in crap detector and turn off you life long any ol' democrat supporter mode.

[chuck]

It's 2016. Just Google it do a generic web search for "why people hate Hillary," man. Then use your inherent built-in crap detector and turn off you life long any ol' democrat supporter mode.

First of all, when I google 'why people hate Hillary' all I get are articles talking about why the Hillary hate is stupid.

Second and more importantly, Brandy and I are talking about people we know and have interaction with, real human interaction, not some random group of jackoffs on the internet. When someone I know says 'I hate Hillary' I want to know why. I sincerely do. This is not some sort of elaborate setup. I really want to know why. I can well understand someone who does not care for her policies or does not share her outlook on many important things.

But to me there is quite a gap between being opposed to her candidacy and actual hate. And, as usual, no one is willing to specify why they hate her. All I get is, Well, look it up yourself. Or, It's obvious, everyone knows.

The more I ask and get no answer the more I realize that the hate simply does not exist or that people's thoughts are so incoherent that they cannot express them, even in a rudimentary way.

I hate her, but I'm not going to tell you why. You either should know or you should look it up. That stance is incredibly feckless. I'm replying to you, Marty, but not necessarily speaking to you and certainly not singling you out, but if someone wants to play this game I want to know why or I want them to shut the fuck up about it. Otherwise it's just fucking noise and there is more than enough of that already.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Oh Chuck, i apologize for my flippant remark regarding Hillary hate. Would it be sufficient to say it is a gut feeling? Because, I do not want to go into a lengthy back and forth discussion on this forum attempting to explain or justify my well founded feelings toward the Clintons. In this regard, i'm not feckless, I'm lazy and apathetic. There is no game being played. Whether hate is anecdotal, irrational, or fact based, what difference does it make at this point anyway? Bill is still dicking bimbos while Hillary is getting paid a paltry $250,000 per speech on Wall Street. I guess I should feel sorry for Hillary. Poor ol' Hillary. She means good, she's just misunderstood. Nothing is her fault. Nor will it ever be because next to the younger Bush president, she is the most enabled politician in history.

Wait, am I just another bitter old fart?

I've always loved this quote: "The real hell of life is everyone has his reasons." - Jean Renoir

[Waldo]

My parents are moderate Republicans and their dislike of the Clintons is largely based on policy, but my extended family and in-laws are very conservative.

My aunts and in-laws are convinced that the Clintons are "crooks" who have tens of murders to their name and have skirted punishment from the law since Bill was a governor.  I guess the best way to describe them would be Clinton conspiracy theorists.  Every whackjob theory out there about the Clintons and the "mysterious" deaths of people tenuously associated with them is absolutely their doing despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  When the Clintons say things that are half-true, they are false; when right-wing bloggers say mostly-false things about the Clintons, they are true.  The authorities never even remotely implicating them for any crimes is just a testament to the massive power they wield.

I should get them to hang out with the Flat Earth Society folks sometime.