A night of bad calls

[HudsonHawk]

So in addition to the controversy in Seattle last night, we got royally fucked in Denial League.  Twice.

1.  We have the bases loaded and one out.  Guy hits a little flair over the SS's head...runners think it's going to drop and advance, the one from 3B scoring.  However, the LF makes a shoestring catch.  He then flips to second base to double off the runner from 2B.  But it's after the runner from 3B scores.  As we're switching sides, I'm reminding the other team that the run counts.  They all start laughing, and one guy bets me $1,000 that I'm wrong.  We're talking to the ump, but he's a slapdick (more on that later) and says he doesn't know the rule.  So in the end, they decide not to count the run.

2.  A few innings later, they have runner on 1B and 2 out.  Batter hits a deep fly ball down the LF line.  I'm watching it, and I thought it hit foul, but regardless, it then bounces over the outfield fence, several feet foul of the pole.  The LF who was chasing it, and only a few feet away immediately throws his hands up to signal the ball went out of play.  The batter stops at 2B, but the umpire signals home run.  Huh?  So I'm arguing with the ump that even if it was a fair ball, it bounced 10 feet in front of the warning track.  His counter is "the ball is over the fence; home run".  We ask the other umpire, and he says he wasn't watching.  The batter shrugs his shoulders and trots in.  The next batter grounds out to end the inning, two runs on the board where no runs should have scored.

So with those two plays, we're three runs in the hole.  We end up losing 7-6.  I show the other team the rule book after the game, and loudmouth refuses to look at it yelling "it's a force out!", quickly grabs his gear runs.  I never did get my thousand bucks. 

[ValpoCory]

His counter is "the ball is over the fence; home run". 

Did he think the ball went over the fence on the fly, or did he think it bounced over?

Sorry about those 2 calls.  Perhaps you can file a formal protest to get the game replayed from the point of the first bad call since the umpire acknowledged the situation but didn't know the rule.

[BizidyDizidy]

Really surprised you don't have high IQ individuals choose umping denial league games as a profession.

[Uncle Charlie]

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.
Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

Your situation is basically within the MLB rules as an example.  However, the question unanswered by your description of the play is if your runner from 3B tagged - as noted in the example?  If he didn't, I'm not really sure how the other team would appeal that play as there are already 3 outs.

[ValpoCory]

Your situation is basically within the MLB rules as an example.  However, the question unanswered by your description of the play is if your runner from 3B tagged - as noted in the example?  If he didn't, I'm not really sure how the other team would appeal that play as there are already 3 outs.

Example: A missed fourth out

On April 12, 2009, in a game between the Los Angeles Dodgers and the Arizona Diamondbacks, the Dodgers scored a run because the Diamondbacks failed to record a fourth out. There were runners on second and third with one out when the batter hit a line drive back to the pitcher. The runner on third scored without tagging up before the runner at second was tagged out. The Diamondbacks left the field, thinking that the inning was over and the run did not count. However, tagging the runner at second, who failed to tag up, was not a force out so the run was not canceled. After all the defensive players had left fair territory, Dodgers manager Joe Torre talked to the umpire and claimed the run. There were no Arizona players left on the field, so nobody could tag third base and appeal that the runner had not tagged up. If they had made the appeal before leaving the field, it would have become the actual third out and the run would not have scored.[2]

So that's what the other team should have done.  Thrown to 3rd to get a 4th out, superseding the 3rd out.

[jbm]

Is an appeal always necessary.  Can an umpire just rule that the runner from third didn't tag and the run therefore does not count?

[ValpoCory]

Is an appeal always necessary.  Can an umpire just rule that the runner from third didn't tag and the run therefore does not count?

Rule 7.10 implies the runner is only called out on appeal.

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --

[HudsonHawk]

Did he think the ball went over the fence on the fly, or did he think it bounced over?

He never really said other than "ball over fence = home run".  Everyone, including the hitter knew it bounced.

Sorry about those 2 calls.  Perhaps you can file a formal protest to get the game replayed from the point of the first bad call since the umpire acknowledged the situation but didn't know the rule.

We don't get *that* worked up about it.

Also, what is the MLB rule number that allows runners on 3rd to score on a fly out without having to tag up?    I wanted to get the exact verbiage on it.

It's Rule 5.08 in the new version.  Doubling off a runner who has not tagged up is not a force, it's an appeal, and it's not automatic.  You have to make the appeal.  If you don't the runner advances, and if that means a runs scores, the run counts.

[HudsonHawk]

Really surprised you don't have high IQ individuals choose umping denial league games as a profession.

Would it make you feel any better to know that they're members of Texas Association of Sports Officials, and they also are the ones doing high school and college games?  Besides, we're paying them $60...the least they can do is know the rules.

[HudsonHawk]

Your situation is basically within the MLB rules as an example.  However, the question unanswered by your description of the play is if your runner from 3B tagged - as noted in the example?  If he didn't, I'm not really sure how the other team would appeal that play as there are already 3 outs.

You have to appeal the runner at 3B, even if that means recognizing a "fourth out".

[HudsonHawk]

Is an appeal always necessary.  Can an umpire just rule that the runner from third didn't tag and the run therefore does not count?

No.

[Knoxbanedoodle]

You have to appeal the runner at 3B, even if that means recognizing a "fourth out".

So the defense could have appealed for a fourth out and the run wouldn't have counted? I would think that once the 3rd out was recorded, the opportunity to appeal would be nullified.

[HudsonHawk]

So the defense could have appealed for a fourth out and the run wouldn't have counted? I would think that once the 3rd out was recorded, the opportunity to appeal would be nullified.

Nope.  You can appeal more than one out and then take whichever one is most advantageous. 

[Uncle Charlie]

So that's what the other team should have done.  Thrown to 3rd to get a 4th out, superseding the 3rd out.

You learn something everyday...