Empire State Building Shooting

[Bench]

So all the victims were shot accidentally by the police?  The "gunman" didn't actually shoot anyone?  (Edit:  It appears he shot one of the victims.  But still, nice shooting NYPD).

You've got to be kidding me.  

[Limey]

"I believe it was handled well."
 - Police Commissioner Kelly.

[Uncle Charlie]

"I believe it was handled well."
 - Police Commissioner Kelly.

Wonder if these will be some of the last words he says in that capacity...

[austro]

So all the victims were shot accidentally by the police?  The "gunman" didn't actually shoot anyone?  (Edit:  It appears he shot one of the victims.  But still, nice shooting NYPD).

You've got to be kidding me. 

I hope the idiots who claim that gun-toting patrons would have lessened the carnage in the movie-theater incident study this one.

[das]

So all the victims were shot accidentally by the police?  The "gunman" didn't actually shoot anyone?  (Edit:  It appears he shot one of the victims.  But still, nice shooting NYPD).

You've got to be kidding me.  

Those in the Law Enforcement community are saying the department needs to be "Barney Fifed".  That's usually a term for police academy cadets that are about to wash out for por sharpsmanship reasons.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Those in the Law Enforcement community are saying the department needs to be "Barney Fifed".  That's usually a term for police academy cadets that are about to wash out for por sharpsmanship reasons.

I thought that meant they were only allowed one bullet.

[mrpink]

I hope the idiots who claim that gun-toting patrons would have lessened the carnage in the movie-theater incident study this one.

I fail to see the connection.  Feel free to explain to this idiot.

[das]

I thought that meant they were only allowed one bullet.

One bullet but only dispersed from the armory in a time of crisis.

[chuck]

I fail to see the connection.  Feel free to explain to this idiot.

Explain it to me, too. I can't see the problem with a bunch of rednecks firing off rounds across public spaces and at close quarters. Hell, it sounds about like a decent wedding.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Explain it to me, too. I can't see the problem with a bunch of rednecks firing off rounds across public spaces and at close quarters. Hell, it sounds about like a decent wedding.

Or a damn fine NYC wedding morning. It's like once a NYC cop starts shooting his gun, he can't stop 'til he empties the chamber.

[austro]

I fail to see the connection.  Feel free to explain to this idiot.

Confusion? Limited sightlines? Elevated adrenalin? These guys are (ostensibly) trained, and they fucked it up in clear daylight. And you fail to see the connection?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Other than a shotgun, which was stolen from me in a burglary, I've never owned a gun. But if I went to the movies and some son of a bitch started firing away, I'd regret not to have been packing. Just saying.

[austro]

Other than a shotgun, which was stolen from me in a burglary, I've never owned a gun. But if I went to the movies and some son of a bitch started firing away, I'd regret not to have been packing. Just saying.

I'm sure you would. I would too. But it's still a bad idea, because there's going to be a lot of collateral damage. Maybe not in the case where there's an antagonist that you can actually identify and target, but in the myriad other cases where things aren't so clear-cut. And I don't have much confidence that most people (even those bestowed with a concealed-carry permit) are able to understand that difference.

[Noe]

A man has got to know his limitations.

[mrpink]

Confusion? Limited sightlines? Elevated adrenalin? These guys are (ostensibly) trained, and they fucked it up in clear daylight. And you fail to see the connection?

Yeah, I do.  All shooting incidents are not the same.  It's likely you've never talked with a CHL holder who actually carries (not that many do on a regular basis).  If you had you might discover that many train better than your average policeman is required to.
I just can't see how there would be more casualties with one crazy asshole shooting fish in a barrell when one or two of the fish can actually return fire.

[Bench]

Yeah, I do.  All shooting incidents are not the same.  It's likely you've never talked with a CHL holder who actually carries (not that many do on a regular basis).  If you had you might discover that many train better than your average policeman is required to.
I just can't see how there would be more casualties with one crazy asshole shooting fish in a barrell when one or two of the fish can actually return fire.

The only crazy assholes shooting fish in a barrel this time was the NYPD.

[Limey]

Yeah, I do.  All shooting incidents are not the same.  It's likely you've never talked with a CHL holder who actually carries (not that many do on a regular basis).  If you had you might discover that many train better than your average policeman is required to.
I just can't see how there would be more casualties with one crazy asshole shooting fish in a barrell when one or two of the fish can actually return fire.

One crazy asshole went on a shooting spree in gun-crazy Arizona a couple of years ago.  In an open mall.  He was only stopped once his magazine ran out.  No one got a shot off at him at all, although one gun owner said that he came this close to shooting one of the people who was helping the victims.

[Phil_in_CS]

The only crazy assholes shooting fish in a barrel this time was the NYPD.

Give them a break. They didn't dump their entire mags, and didn't reload and dump those mags too. That puts them way above the average NYPD street cop.

[Bench]

Give them a break. They didn't dump their entire mags, and didn't reload and dump those mags too. That puts them way above the average NYPD street cop.

True.  And also, this time the guy actually did have a gun and actually did kill someone, so they are way above the curve in NYPD police shootings. 

[mrpink]

One crazy asshole went on a shooting spree in gun-crazy Arizona a couple of years ago.  In an open mall.  He was only stopped once his magazine ran out.  No one got a shot off at him at all, although one gun owner said that he came this close to shooting one of the people who was helping the victims.

What shooting are you talking about?

[geezerdonk]

I blame New York's laissez faire, wild west statutory scheme concerning gun possession and ownership.  

[geezerdonk]

This is another example of NYC cops overreacting. The original shooter, who was on Ambien and had been molested as a child, was in the process of surrendering his weapon and delivering a heart felt apology when he was interrupted by the barrage from the trigger happy boys in blue.   

[Bench]

What shooting are you talking about?

Giffords.

There was an interesting anecdote from a CHL guy who was carrying a gun at the time. He ran out of the grocery store when he heard the shooting.  His training and judgment were good enough that he didn't pull out his gun (lest he be mistaken for the shooter) but nearly did when he saw another person with a gun next to people on the ground.  That person, of course, was not the Loughner but someone who had helped disarm Loughner and was now holding the gun.   

I frankly don't trust most people to have that kind of judgment and restraint in that situation.

[Limey]

What shooting are you talking about?

The nutter who shot Gabby Giffords.

What Bench said.

[mrpink]

That shooting's an example of what I'm talking about.  Had the CHL holder been in the vicinity of the shooter there's a good chance he would have stopped him before he started firing into the crowd.

[BizidyDizidy]

In the ESB shooting, maybe a CHL holder could've taken out the police before they did any more damage.

[Limey]

That shooting's an example of what I'm talking about.  Had the CHL holder been in the vicinity of the shooter there's a good chance he would have stopped him before he started firing into the crowd.

Using his spider sense?

[mrpink]

Using his spider sense?

I think once Giffords got shot in the head he might have had an idea that Loughner might be a danger to others.

[MusicMan]

That shooting's an example of what I'm talking about.  Had the CHL holder been in the vicinity of the shooter there's a good chance he would have stopped him before he started firing into the crowd.

Had a CHL holder been in the vicinity of Minute Maid Park, there's a similarly good chance the 2012 Astros would have made the playoffs.

[Limey]

I think once Giffords got shot in the head he might have had an idea that Loughner might be a danger to others.

You said before he started shooting.  Once he started shooting, everyone had to keep their head down until he stopped to reload.  Many of those who couldn't make cover got shot too.

I am not arguing for the repeal of the 2nd amendment.  I intend to get my CHL and, once she get her real estate license, Miss Limey will most definitely be packing.  But the argument that more guns means less people getting shot is a fallacy.  If it were true, Texas would be nearly devoid of gun deaths.  The issue is what armaments are available, and to whom.

Loughner had a banana clip that had been illegal a few years earlier until the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire.  He was tackled as soon as he stopped to reload.  Had he had to stop to reload after 10 shots, instead of 30, fewer people would've been shot/killed.

[mrpink]

I said "before he started firing into the crowd".  Obviously I wasn't there, but I assume Giffords was in front facing the crowd.  She was shot first then he started firing randomly.  If everyone kept their head down during the shooting I believe a CHL holder in the crowd would have prevented casualties.  Also, had he not been able to get a 30 round clip he may have just carried two guns.

I hope both you and Miss Limey do get CHLs and practice often in the rare case that it helps save your life.

My original objection is due to Austro calling people who think that a CHL holder in Aurora would have lessened the carnage idiots.

[BUWebguy]

once she get her real estate license, Miss Limey will most definitely be packing.

What's the connection between these two events? (Why one, then the other?)

[Ty in Tampa]

What's the connection between these two events? (Why one, then the other?)

I imagine it would have something to do with showing houses to relative strangers.

[geezerdonk]

I imagine it would have something to do with showing houses to relative strangers perverted homicidal maniacs.

[chuck]

I imagine it would have something to do with showing houses to relative strangers.

My first thought was a coercive sales technique but I guess that's the born salesman in me.

[EasTexAstro]

I thought it had to do with the messy neighbors.

[MusicMan]

I imagine it would have something to do with showing houses to perverted homicidal maniacs.

Well, then how the hell is anyone here supposed to buy a house?!?!

[Ty in Tampa]

Well, then how the hell is anyone here supposed to buy a house?!?!

"OK, were going to walk through the house, here...nice and quietly. Just do as your told and no one will get hurt. What do you think of the open format living space?"

[Limey]

I said "before he started firing into the crowd".  Obviously I wasn't there, but I assume Giffords was in front facing the crowd.  She was shot first then he started firing randomly.  If everyone kept their head down during the shooting I believe a CHL holder in the crowd would have prevented casualties.  Also, had he not been able to get a 30 round clip he may have just carried two guns.

Each with only a 10-round clip...

It's a question of degrees:  the Supreme Court has allowed that limits can be put on what arms can be born, so it's just a question of where the line is drawn.

[Limey]

I imagine it would have something to do with showing houses to relative strangers.

Bingo.

And Miss Limey is definitely a shoot first, collect business cards later kinda gal.  When I go out drinking, I will come home wearing kevlar.

[Bench]

Each with only a 10-round clip...

It's a question of degrees:  the Supreme Court has allowed that limits can be put on what arms can be born, so it's just a question of where the line is drawn.

The phrase "well regulated" is right there in the amendment.

[Gizzmonic]

Bingo.

And Miss Limey is definitely a shoot first, collect business cards later kinda gal.  When I go out drinking, I will come home wearing kevlar.

Doesn't that reduce the sensation?

[MusicMan]

Doesn't that reduce the sensation?

Miss Limey prefers this for stamina-related reasons, apparently.

[Limey]

Miss Limey prefers this for stamina-related reasons, apparently.

"When you come home, I want you to be hard".

[mrpink]

It's a question of degrees:  the Supreme Court has allowed that limits can be put on what arms can be born, so it's just a question of where the line is drawn.

True, but why would you assume that a law declaring 30-round mags illegal would mean that a nutjob intent on killing people wouldn't have 30-round mags anyway?

[Limey]

True, but why would you assume that a law declaring 30-round mags illegal would mean that a nutjob intent on killing people wouldn't have 30-round mags anyway?

Harder for him to get them.  Most of these shooting sprees are performed by people who acquired all their kit legally. 

[Phil_in_CS]

Harder for him to get them.  Most of these shooting sprees are performed by people who acquired all their kit legally. 

Folks don't seem to have many problems getting drugs. I'm sure the Chinese would be happy to sell as many AK's as folks want to buy.

[Limey]

Folks don't seem to have many problems getting drugs. I'm sure the Chinese would be happy to sell as many AK's as folks want to buy.

So why bother making drugs illegal?

Give everyone an oozie and an 8-ball, and watch crime disappear.

[subnuclear]

Folks don't seem to have many problems getting drugs. I'm sure the Chinese would be happy to sell as many AK's as folks want to buy.

Demand for drugs is way higher and the distribution networks are much larger. The demand for illegal weapons is smaller and would be more difficult to find for someone who wanted them (the same way it would be pretty hard to score some cocaine by googling on the internet (I've never tried this, so if you can do this then fine I'm wrong.)).

On the other hand, the argument is mostly symbolic and will have little impact on the homicide rate either way.

[HudsonHawk]

True, but why would you assume that a law declaring 30-round mags illegal would mean that a nutjob intent on killing people wouldn't have 30-round mags anyway?

Why outlaw nuclear missiles?  The nutjobs will still have them, right?

[Andyzipp]

Give everyone an oozie and an 8-ball, and watch crime disappear.

oozie?

[HudsonHawk]

oozie?

Apparently we backwoods Americans butcher the spelling of everything...including Israeli gunmakers.

[Bench]

oozie?

The bullets just drip right out.

[Limey]

oozie?

I was typing from the hip.

[Andyzipp]

I was typing from the hip.

It sounds like something you'd need ED meds for.

[MusicMan]

It sounds like something you'd need ED meds for.

If you have not passed gun control legislation in four hours, consult your lobbyist.

[Andyzipp]

If you have not passed gun control legislation in four hours, consult your lobbyist.

If you limit the ability of honest hard-working citizens to get ED meds, only the criminals...will...never mind.

[MusicMan]

If you limit the ability of honest hard-working citizens to get ED meds, only the criminals...will...never mind.

...sit on a beach in separate claw-foot bathtubs?

[mrpink]

Harder for him to get them.  Most of these shooting sprees are performed by people who acquired all their kit legally. 

You want a 30-round mag? I can get you a 30-round mag, believe me.  There are ways, Limey.  You don't wanna know about it, believe me.  Hell, I can get you a 30-round by 3:00 this afternoon...with hollow points.

[Phil_in_CS]

So why bother making drugs illegal?

Give everyone an oozie and an 8-ball, and watch crime disappear.

I'm with you on that. NYT had a study recently that despite the billions spent on enforcement, the price of cocaine was down 75% over a 30 year period. Supply is very high and we're making criminals rich.

[NeilT]

You want a 30-round mag? I can get you a 30-round mag, believe me.  There are ways, Limey.  You don't wanna know about it, believe me.  Hell, I can get you a 30-round by 3:00 this afternoon...with hollow points.

Don't you have to wait until this weekend's gunshow?

[Limey]

I'm with you on that. NYT had a study recently that despite the billions spent on enforcement, the price of cocaine was down 75% over a 30 year period. Supply is very high and we're making criminals rich.

[Ali G]  75% off?  I can get you some for less than that.  [Ali G]

[ybbodeus]

The phrase "well regulated" is right there in the amendment.

Was the regulation to be for the arms or the militia? Just trying to add nine more pages to this thread.

Chuck/salesman respnse--got me chuckling anyway. GeBlChucklehead. 

[Bench]

Was the regulation to be for the arms or the militia? Just trying to add nine more pages to this thread.

Chuck/salesman respnse--got me chuckling anyway. GeBlChucklehead. 

Are the arms for the militia?

[ybbodeus]

Didn't realize I hit the post button. Had to catch a call while rewording my initial question and must have posted in the process.  Was going to redo it to change "regulation" to "regulating". Subtle change.

[mrpink]

Not sure if you're serious about this, but just in case you are here's the amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

"Well regulated" really has nothing do do with anything besides presenting an assumption.  As ripped off from wikipedia:

The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.

[BizidyDizidy]

I read it to imply we should get tanks, nukes, etc. - pretty shitty militia otherwise.

[NeilT]

I read it to imply we should get tanks, nukes, etc. - pretty shitty militia otherwise.

How else will Lubbock protect itself?

[Bench]

Not sure if you're serious about this, but just in case you are here's the amendment:

"Well regulated" really has nothing do do with anything besides presenting an assumption.  As ripped off from wikipedia:

But commas were used differently in 1789!

[94CougarGrad]

But commas were used differently in 1789!

The difference between

"Let's eat, Grandpa!"

and

"Let's eat Grandpa!"

Commas. They save lives.