Happy Trails.....

[JaneDoe]

Mills, Barnett, Meacham gone. Press conference 10 am tomorrow.

[Mr. Happy]

I wonder what triggered that.

[NeilT]

I'm thinking the first base coach has been the problem all season long.

[Mr. Happy]

I'm thinking the first base coach has been the problem all season long.

Precisely. Meacham and Barnett must have been closest to Millsie.

[chuck]

This is fucking bush league. Of course I'd expect nothing less from the organization.

[Mr. Happy]

This is fucking bush league. Of course I'd expect nothing less from the organization.

The timing is perplexing. Perhaps Luhnow will shed light on that at the presser.

[strosrays]

The highlights of the Brad Mills era.

[Uncle Charlie]

The timing is perplexing. Perhaps Luhnow will shed light on that at the presser.

Maybe those three had just had enough & couldn't sit through it any longer knowing they were out in 45 days anyway?

[Astros Fan in Big D]

"If we fire him/them now, we can show the fans we are really serious about having the best AAA team in the AL West next year."

[subnuclear]

Who would want to work for these these guys after this?

[SoonerJim]

"If we fire him/them now, we can show the fans we are really serious about having the best AAA team in the AL West next year."

Absolutely, it's like having putting a division II football team into division I play, and expecting a national championship. Could Mills have been used by Boston, instead of the manic Valentine?

[Reuben]

Who would want to work for these these guys after this?

In-season firings happen all the time. "Unfair" firings happen all the time. I don't understand the timing of it, but I don't believe for one second it's going to limit their choices for a replacement.

[subnuclear]

In-season firings happen all the time. "Unfair" firings happen all the time. I don't understand the timing of it, but I don't believe for one second it's going to limit their choices for a replacement.

You are more confident about this than I.

[Fredia]

maybe they went to upper management and asked to be let go. anyhow seems to be a popular decision among ummm fans

[Jose Cruz III]

I personally feel that Mills will be a good manager if he ever gets a chance to manage a team on at least close to a level playing field.

[MusicMan]

Buster Olney tweet:

@Buster_ESPN: Lots of anger around the sport this morning for the way HOU staff changes went down. The change not a surprise, but method was bloodless.

[moriartp]

As expected, Mills and Barnett show nothing but class in their reaction (no quotes from Meach).

[Ron Brand]

Tony DeFrancesco?

[moriartp]

Ty Van Burkelo (Minor League hitting coordinator) and Dan Radison (asst. Luhnow brought in over the offseason) fill the hitting coach and 1B coach positions, for now.

[Foghorn]

Who would want to work for these these guys after this?

Anyone who would want to make a kick ass salary and be the manager of a major league baseball team.

[BizidyDizidy]

Anyone who would want to make a kick ass salary and be the manager of a major league baseball team.

Consider this me formally throwing my hat into the ring.

[Ron Brand]

Minor league team, minor league manager.

[moriartp]

Minor league team, minor league manager.

Nail on the head.

[HudsonHawk]

1. I'm not sure what Mills has done to think he's a good manager

2. I'm not sure why this is surprising to anyone.

3. I don't get the outrage and the character assassinations of Crane and Luhnow  over this.

[Foghorn]

1. I'm not sure what Mills has done to think he's a good manager

2. I'm not sure why this is surprising to anyone.

3. I don't get the outrage and the character assassinations of Crane and Luhnow  over this.

agree 100%

Oooh, the heartless bastards fired a guy who hasn't done jack shit in 3 years.  How dare they.

[MusicMan]

Oooh, the heartless bastards fired a guy who hasn't done jack shit in 3 years.  How dare they.

While I'm not sure why Olney refers to this as "bloodless", saying Mills hadn't done jack ahit with this team is akin to saying that your mechanic hadn't done jack shit to make your Pinto ready for street racing.

[Ron Brand]

Jesus H. Christ couldn't win with this team.  Might be a really spiffy player-manager though.

[Savage]

Jesus H. Christ couldn't win with this team.  Might be a really spiffy player-manager though.

Who said winning was the criteria?  There's not being competitive, and there's not showing development.  Does anyone think he got the max execution out of the pieces he had?   

[jbm]

This is fucking bush league. Of course I'd expect nothing less from the organization.

I'm not a fan of Mills, but I completely agree. 

[roadrunner]

This is pro sports.  Firings like this happen all the time.  It's a new front office and a historically bad team.  Why the outrage?  What's next - are they going to cut an underperforming veteran?  Ohhh those heartless bastards.  This is as annoying as the "they didn't even call me" story about Tal Smith.

[Ron Brand]

Who said winning was the criteria?  There's not being competitive, and there's not showing development.  Does anyone think he got the max execution out of the pieces he had?   

I'll try to address this when I'm not driving.

[subnuclear]

This is pro sports.  Firings like this happen all the time.  It's a new front office and a historically bad team.  Why the outrage?  What's next - are they going to cut an unperforming veteran?  Ohhh those heartless bastards.  This is as annoying as the "they didn't even call me" story about Tal Smith.

Its not heartlessness that I care about, its the utter pointlessness.

Development and effort have been a mixed bag and I don't think Mills has been particularly bad considering he has had half his roster turn over.

[Fredia]

will new manager be able to change things

[jbm]

Who said winning was the criteria?  There's not being competitive, and there's not showing development.  Does anyone think he got the max execution out of the pieces he had?   

I understand this, and actually agree, and if this had gone down before the fire sale, I would have found it understandable for these exact reasons.  However, after completely gutting the team and filling it with rejects, it now has all the appearances of pettiness.  Bottom line for me at least, once the GM and owner had given up on the team, blaming the manager is real bad form.  But, we have seen it before.  

[Mr. Happy]

Always watch those special assistants to the general manager.

[Ron Brand]

Always watch those special assistants to the general manager.

+1.

[Savage]

I understand this, and actually agree, and if this had gone down before the fire sale, I would have found it understandable for these exact reasons.  However, after completely gutting the team and filling it with rejects, it now has all the appearances of pettiness.  Bottom line for me at least, once the GM and owner had given up on the team, blaming the manager is real bad form.  But, we have seen it before.  

I agree timing is a little odd (and the players finding out via twitter particularly sloppy).  Could have certainly been executed better but I don't object to the move.  I think I just appreciate that I don't know enough to make a firm judgment on this.  Maybe the dynamics / attitudes have shifted and a change necessary.  We've all seen situations where a difficult situation wears on all those involved and the dynamic disintegrates. Maybe Mills didn't have enough Polly-Anna left to get through to the end of the year.  maybe management felt a change now would create a better environment ahead of the September call-ups. I just don't believe the move was unfair.  I do believe criticism on the communication approach is completely warranted.

[chuck]

Who would want to work for these these guys after this?

Maybe a guy who quit on his team in the middle of the season. That would be fucking perfect.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

To me, this has nothing to do with wins/losses or player development under Mills.  This a ownership/mgmt group putting their imprint on their newly acquired team. Hoe anyone from our perspective can attribute these results is a level of arrogance I cannot appreciate.  If the current regime succeeds, most fans will forgive and forget.  If they fail, this will be viewed with absolute clarity associated with the typical hind-sighted genius we read over at the chron.  

The only question I have is about the IM.  Isn't he the guy associated  with umors regarding players turning on him in OKC?  

[Foghorn]

I understand this, and actually agree, and if this had gone down before the fire sale, I would have found it understandable for these exact reasons.  However, after completely gutting the team and filling it with rejects, it now has all the appearances of pettiness.  Bottom line for me at least, once the GM and owner had given up on the team, blaming the manager is real bad form.  But, we have seen it before.  

Has Jordan lyles developed?  Has bud Norris taken a step forward, or a step backwards?  Did mills get anything out of Schaefer? 

He was toast in 6 weeks.  He hadn't done a thing to earn the right to finish the season.

[Reuben]

Maybe they view Defrancesco as a legitimate candidate to become full-time manager and they felt like they should take the opportunity to see him actually manage Major League games.

[roadrunner]

Its not heartlessness that I care about, its the utter pointlessness.

Development and effort have been a mixed bag and I don't think Mills has been particularly bad considering he has had half his roster turn over.

It gives them more time to do a thorough search for next season and beyond.  This season is done - that was apparent months ago.  If anything I think it was considerate of Luhnow and Crane to even keep Mills around for most of the year and evaluate him.  

Anyone with a brain knows they aren't blaming the results completely on Mills.  It's the Crane/Postolos/Luhnow show and they want their guys.  I don't see anything wrong with that.

[roadrunner]

To me, this has nothing to do with wins/losses or player development under Mills.  This a ownership/mgmt group putting their imprint on their newly acquired team.   

This.  This is all it is.  I understand questioning the timing - but who really cares?  There are 6 weeks left and the season is done.  Might as well do it now.

[Mr. Happy]

Has Jordan lyles developed?  Has bud Norris taken a step forward, or a step backwards?  Did mills get anything out of Schaefer? 

He was toast in 6 weeks.  He hadn't done a thing to earn the right to finish the season.

Lyles will never develop until he finds an answer to lefties and figures out a way to reduce that butt ugly 19.02 fifth inning ERA. His stuff is there; it's just a matter of learning a bit more craftiness and pitchability.

Norris? Changeup. Changeup. Changeup. Until he develops some confidence in that changeup, he will continue to get blistered in games where he doesn't have really good command of his two plus pitches. He needs an equalizer, and that should be the changeup.

I don't think that Schreefer has any appreciable level of talent that Millsie could've coaxed out of him--that one's not on Millsie at all. He was stuck with the guy.

Millsie wasn't a bad manager. He wasn't exactly dynamic, and he was a slave to the so-called "book." But in fairness, he was a manager in the wrong place at the wrong time. This was a poor career move for him, but I think that he'll resurface as Tito's bench coach when he gets his next job. Do I think that Millsie will never manage again? Never is way too strong a word, but it would surprise me if another club gave him a chance.

[Bench]

Buster Olney tweet:

Would Buster have preferred it bloody?

[Mr. Happy]

Would Buster have preferred it bloody?

Always. Remember the press mantra: if it bleeds, it leads.

[subnuclear]

This.  This is all it is.  I understand questioning the timing - but who really cares?  There are 6 weeks left and the season is done.  Might as well do it now.

You can wait until the season is over like an organization with a plan or you can do it on a Saturday night after a 12-4 loss like a jerk. Why they chose latter is beyond me.

[jbm]

You can wait until the season is over like an organization with a plan or you can do it on a Saturday night after a 12-4 loss like a jerk. Why they chose latter is beyond me.

No doubt, and the theory it was only about inserting their own doesn't really wash, either for Mills as that would have been done a long time ago if that was the prevailing driver, and it doesn't even begin to explain the departures of the other two.  Luhnow just wanted to put his stamp on the first base coach?  

It is obvious that Crane and Luhnow have been feeling some heat and discomfort lately, and this move merely reflects that.

[Navin R Johnson]

Any and everyone who had anything to do with the previous ownership is toast, other than JD and Brownie.  It has little to do with how good/bad they are at their job.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

I don't think clearing house now will significantly affect the pool of applicants they'll go after.  The target will be a someone who either a) has never managed in the bigs before and will accept any job to have that chance or b) is a complete re-tread who is willing to go through it again with a bad team.

Either way, it'll be a low paying job on the mlb manager scale and the lucky winner will be long gone by the time this franchise fields a team that sniffs 90 wins in a season.  His successor may well be gone before that time too.

Now please excuse me while I petition someone to drop an anvil on my head so I can stop thinking about the sorry state this franchise is in.

[Bench]

You can wait until the season is over like an organization with a plan or you can do it on a Saturday night after a 12-4 loss like a jerk. Why they chose latter is beyond me.

I'm right there with you.

[Mr. Happy]

I don't think clearing house now will significantly affect the pool of applicants they'll go after.  The target will be a someone who either a) has never managed in the bigs before and will accept any job to have that chance or b) is a complete re-tread who is willing to go through it again with a bad team.

Either way, it'll be a low paying job on the mlb manager scale and the lucky winner will be long gone by the time this franchise fields a team that sniffs 90 wins in a season.  His successor may well be gone before that time too.

Now please excuse me while I petition someone to drop an anvil on my head so I can stop thinking about the sorry state this franchise is in.

I'm not nearly as cynical as you are. I think that what will hold back potentially desirable applicants is the sorry state of the club right now. Will the new skipper be a retread? It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see Riggleman in that spot.Will the new manager be a first timer? Could be. Right now, I've  got faith in Luhnow to pick a good one, and I'll hold him accountable for a poor selection.

[OregonStrosFan]

Now please excuse me while I petition someone to drop an anvil on my head so I can stop thinking about the sorry state this franchise is in.

Don't you need to create some sort of focus group to visit the issue before you begin the petitioning process?!?

[Mr. Happy]

Don't you need to create some sort of focus group to visit the issue before you begin the petitioning process?!?

No indeed. He's a cartoon character.

[geezerdonk]

The word nothing sums up Millsie's tenure. He had nothing to work with and he did nothing with it.  He demanded nothing from his players and that is exactly what they gave him.

[Mr. Happy]

The word nothing sums up Millsie's tenure. He had nothing to work with and he did nothing with it.  He demanded nothing from his players and that is exactly what they gave him.

I waited all day for that from you?

[SoonerJim]

Anyone who would want to make a kick ass salary and be the manager of a major league baseball team.

This made me LOL. Now I have Spec Richardson flashbacks.

[Mr. Happy]

This made me LOL. Now I have Spec Richardson flashbacks.

I hate when that happens.

[SoonerJim]

I hate when that happens.

One day when I got home from school, I saw my father sitting by the kitchen radio looking as if someone shot his dog, and we didn't even own one. When I inquired as to why he was so disconsolate, he said Morgan was traded,and that Cincy just got guaranteed WS victories.

My dad was a former semi-pro player, and knew the sport inside and out. He saw a host of Astro talent leave during that period.

[Mr. Happy]

One day when I got home from school, I saw my father sitting by the kitchen radio looking as if someone shot his dog, and we didn't even own one. When I inquired as to why he was so disconsolate, he said Morgan was traded,and that Cincy just got guaranteed WS victories.

My dad was a former semi-pro player, and knew the sport inside and out. He saw a host of Astro talent leave during that period.

That deal and the Cuellar debacle were the lowlights of his sorry career. I too was despondent over the trade of beloved "Little Joe."

[Astros Rising]

New manager, same result.  I can see the rationale behind Heck's departure; however, the dismissal of Brad was a desperation move.  I'm not sure what the expectations were coming into this year but it damn sure didn't take a rocket scientist to know that Astros were bad.  The Astros farm system is not very productive.  When Heck too over the reins of the Farm system, it was ranked near the bottom.  5 years later, the best parts of the system were acquired via trade. Take away those assets and the Astros farm system is just as lousy as it was in 2007.  Good luck Mr. Heck, hope you get another job touting your success as a member of the Milwaukee Brewers scouting staff.  Back to Mills, how do you expect to improve over the course of the year while the GM is auctioning off all the veterans?  The Astros are baseball's version of the Walking Dead.

[NeilT]

The Astros are baseball's version of the Walking Dead.

I never really got into the Dead all that much.  Too bad, too, I think I would have liked them.

[roadrunner]

You can wait until the season is over like an organization with a plan or you can do it on a Saturday night after a 12-4 loss like a jerk. Why they chose latter is beyond me.

Well considering they are beginning the search process immediately, I don't see any reason to wait around.  The front office has made it obvious that they are not wasting any time trying to get this thing on track. 

[chuck]

You can wait until the season is over like an organization with a plan or you can do it on a Saturday night after a 12-4 loss like a jerk. Why they chose latter is beyond me.

Mills was never going to be retained after this season. It wouldn't have mattered if he had by some miracle led the team to an almost respectable record. His contract was up and it's natural that the new GM would want his guy as manager. Everyone understands that, everyone's OK with it.

If you have a disengaged manager who's obviously in over his head, who doesn't particularly have the respect of his players, who has led an under-achieving team and who the league thinks so little of that he'll never work in professional baseball again, sure, go ahead and fire the guy at this juncture.

But if you have a totally engaged, completely dedicated, stand-up company man who has always had the players' backs in public and who has dealt with the shit soup that he's been fed by a sequence of GMs with great equanimity and consummate professionalism and who is well regarded enough around the league to where he will have another (another?) reasonably high-profile MLB job next year if he wants one then you surely show some respect by letting him finish the season.

I remember Ed Wade once told me that Mills would be in Houston for 'a long time.' I guess that's just one more thing that he was wrong about.

[austro]

Well considering they are beginning the search process immediately, I don't see any reason to wait around.  The front office has made it obvious that they are not wasting any time trying to get this thing on track. 

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

[Ron Brand]

Mills was never going to be retained after this season. It wouldn't have mattered if he had by some miracle led the team to an almost respectable record. His contract was up and it's natural that the new GM would want his guy as manager. Everyone understands that, everyone's OK with it.

If you have a disengaged manager who's obviously in over his head, who doesn't particularly have the respect of his players, who has led an under-achieving team and who the league thinks so little of that he'll never work in professional baseball again, sure, go ahead and fire the guy at this juncture.

But if you have a totally engaged, completely dedicated, stand-up company man who has always had the players' backs in public and who has dealt with the shit soup that he's been fed by a sequence of GMs with great equanimity and consummate professionalism and who is well regarded enough around the league to where he will have another (another?) reasonably high-profile MLB job next year if he wants one then you surely show some respect by letting him finish the season.

I remember Ed Wade once told me that Mills would be in Houston for 'a long time.' I guess that's just one more thing that he was wrong about.

Or you give him a couple of months' paid vacation.

[Ty in Tampa]

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

My initial reaction was, "man, that's pretty shitty" but I'm starting to see that there's not much difference between now and 6 weeks from now except the new regime getting started 6 weeks sooner.

[jbm]

Can they actually interview coaches/managers on current clubs?  I know you can't do that during the playoffs.  

Sounds like they already have someone in mind, someone who isn't currently working.  Either that or it is just panic taking over.

[roadrunner]

To the other extreme, Mills should be happy they even gave him a shot this year.  Ed Wade was fired hours after the sale finally got approved.  They gave Mills a leash so they could determine whether or not they thought he was right guy for what they want to do.  They decided he wasn't.  I think everyone would rather them move on than let Mills go 6 more weeks to make him feel better.

[Ty in Tampa]

I just can't see this as desperation or panic. What's going to happen in 6 weeks, a miraculous run? No run will make this team any more than it is. I see it as wanting to maximize the time they have to get their new blood going and Mills wasn't part of it.

[Ron Brand]

I just can't see this as desperation or panic. What's going to happen in 6 weeks, a miraculous run? No run will make this team any more than it is. I see it as wanting to maximize the time they have to get their new blood going and Mills wasn't part of it.

That's essentially what Crane said after today's game.

[austro]

My initial reaction was, "man, that's pretty shitty" but I'm starting to see that there's not much difference between now and 6 weeks from now except the new regime getting started 6 weeks sooner.

I don't have a real problem with them dropping the axe now and essentially advertising that the position is available. My problem is with the tone-deaf way they went about it. And, seriously, the first-base coach?!? You couldn't wait for the end of the season for that? He only sees a couple of guys a night anyway.

[Ron Brand]

To the other extreme, Mills should be happy they even gave him a shot this year.  Ed Wade was fired hours after the sale finally got approved.  They gave Mills a leash so they could determine whether or not they thought he was right guy for what they want to do.  They decided he wasn't.  I think everyone would rather them move on than let Mills go 6 more weeks to make him feel better.

Crane said that they didn't really have enough time to evaluate Mills et al., when they took over so they waited.

[roadrunner]

Crane said that they didn't really have enough time to evaluate Mills et al., when they took over so they waited.

Right - they gave him a fair shot instead of just cutting him immediately.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Crane et al. knew when they took over that Mills would not be long for the job.  For him to say that they didn't have enough time to evaluate Mills is nice PR, but Mills was always going to be fired, it was just a matter of when.  Why fire him in 2011 and waste a shitty 2012 season on your new guy?  Especially when the new guy is going to have his own shitty seasons in following years and eventually will be cannon fodder himself?

As for the timing, if the clubhouse atmosphere were completely poisoned and Mills was a part of it, he should be gone.  If he was insubordinate to upper mgmt, he should be gone.  If he 'lost the team' and was tuned out by players who may be a part of the organization in the next few years, gone.   Otherwise this smacks of a focus-group driven decision to try to salvage some PR heading into the offseason.

Either way, I hope Mills lands on his feet and gets a chance to manage again.  And I am hopeful that Crane et al. have the thing at least on the verge of potentially having the capacity of possibly facing the right direction.  But that doesn't mean their shit doesn't stink.

   

[subnuclear]

Right - they gave him a fair shot instead of just cutting him immediately.

Bullshit. There was no fair shot. They traded literally every major league baseball player off the team. Their best hitter has been injured most of the season. How can the team not look terrible under those conditions?

He was only going to be fired. They just didn't want to deal with it when they fired Wade. Mills was not "lucky". He would have been better off being fired at the beginning rather than treated like he "was being given a shot" when he wasn't.

If you need longer than between the end of the season and Thanksgiving to hire a coach you suck at hiring people.

[roadrunner]

Bullshit. There was no fair shot. They traded literally every major league baseball player off the team. Their best hitter has been injured most of the season. How can the team not look terrible under those conditions?

He was only going to be fired. They just didn't want to deal with it when they fired Wade. Mills was not "lucky". He would have been better off being fired at the beginning rather than treated like he "was being given a shot" when he wasn't.

If you need longer than between the end of the season and Thanksgiving to hire a coach you suck at hiring people.

The bottom line is they didn't have to keep him around for 2012 but they did for whatever reason. 

Let's not forget that Mills knew what he was getting into when he took the job in 2010.  The farm system was terrible and ownership was trying to get out.  If he didn't think there was a good chance of things playing out like they have over the last few years then he needs to work on his career decision making.  Yes it was a hopeless situation, but he signed up for it.

[Mr. Happy]

I wish nothing but happiness for Brad Mills, who's a really good baseball man, as well as Bobby Meacham and Mike Barnett.

[roadrunner]

Yeah I guess I should also clarify that I hope Mills lands on his feet.  I thought he was fine.  I'm only defending Crane/Luhnow because I have absolutely no problem with what they did and how they did it.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I think Mills wanted to be a manager anywhere more than he wanted to wait for the right opportunity. In his desire to obtain a managerial job he was impetuous in seeking and agreeing to the Astros job. It was never going to end with a parade.

[jbm]

I'm only defending Crane/Luhnow because I have absolutely no problem with what they did and how they did it.

What about the first base coach?  Approve of that too?  Just wondering if you are capable of criticizing them for anything at all.

[SoonerJim]

Well considering they are beginning the search process immediately, I don't see any reason to wait around.  The front office has made it obvious that they are not wasting any time trying to get this thing on track. 

So I can anticipate a rapid turnaround and a competitive product on the field shortly? Who will be the lucky man who takes the helm on this impending juggernaut?

More importantly, will MLB-level prices will be charged to watch AAA and some AA players flail against Texas and Los Angeles next season? Bowie Kuhn rejected an A's trade back in the day to maintain competitive balance, but this team will be cannon fodder for a while, perhaps a long while. Bud Selig witnesses all of this , and pronounces it good.

[Clark in Denver]

There's an off day on Monday, but they had to do it Saturday night? The players found out via Twitter? Chickenshit.

I haven't followed the team very closely this year, but I don't ever remember Mills making a stink about the hand he was dealt. He went out there and did his job like a professional. They at least owed him the dignity to wait until the off day. They owed it to the players too.

[Mr. Happy]

I think Mills wanted to be a manager anywhere more than he wanted to wait for the right opportunity. In his desire to obtain a managerial job he was impetuous in seeking and agreeing to the Astros job. It was never going to end with a parade.

I agree wholeheartedly. Had Millsie waited, of course, he would probably have been shitcanned with Tito Francona after the 2011 season. He gambled and lost. The world goes on.

[HudsonHawk]

New manager, same result.  I can see the rationale behind Heck's departure; however, the dismissal of Brad was a desperation move.  I'm not sure what the expectations were coming into this year but it damn sure didn't take a rocket scientist to know that Astros were bad.  The Astros farm system is not very productive.  When Heck too over the reins of the Farm system, it was ranked near the bottom.  5 years later, the best parts of the system were acquired via trade. Take away those assets and the Astros farm system is just as lousy as it was in 2007.  Good luck Mr. Heck, hope you get another job touting your success as a member of the Milwaukee Brewers scouting staff.  Back to Mills, how do you expect to improve over the course of the year while the GM is auctioning off all the veterans?  The Astros are baseball's version of the Walking Dead.

Have you not paid any attention at all to the Astros the last two years?  This had nothing to do with Mills not winning the Indy 500 in that Pinto.

[strosrays]

. . . it damn sure didn't take a rocket scientist to know that Astros were bad.

Well, I don't know exactly what it is subnuclear does for a living, but it could be rocket scientist. So I'm going with what he says.

[Noe]

Now that the house cleaning is all done, TeamCrane can now take front and center as to how they're planning to make this a competitive... or just a major league caliber... team again. Nobody left to pin it on any more.

The fun begins now!

[HudsonHawk]

He was only going to be fired. They just didn't want to deal with it when they fired Wade.

So you think the only reason they kept Mills this year is because Crane and Luhnow are two guys who are too timid to make a hiring decision?

[strosrays]

Now that the house cleaning is all done, TeamCrane can now take front and center as to how they're planning to make this a competitive... or just a major league caliber... team again. Nobody left to pin it on any more.

The fun begins now!

If they really do hire Riggelman, that would be a clear indication (to me, anyway) that they are not serious.  Or that they just don't fucking get it.

Either way, not good.

[austro]

If they really do hire Riggelman, that would be a clear indication (to me, anyway) that they are not serious.  Or that they just don't fucking get it.

Either way, not good.

I said it a few days (or weeks?) ago: the next guy is also a sacrificial lamb, and it doesn't really matter who it is. The hire that matters will take place two years from now, when the team is starting to show signs of competitiveness. Worrying about the next guy up is pointless.

[Mr. Happy]

If they really do hire Riggelman, that would be a clear indication (to me, anyway) that they are not serious.  Or that they just don't fucking get it.

Either way, not good.

I agree. Riggleman's a retread. He has had his chances and hasn't won very much. Of course, the club was improving in Washington when he was shitcanned. I want to see a creative, innovative hire-someone of whom I will say "that was unexpected and brilliant." I ain't holding out a whole lotta hope for that.

[strosrays]

I agree. Riggleman's a retread. He has had his chances and hasn't won very much. Of course, the club was improving in Washington when he was shitcanned. I want to see a creative, innovative hire-someone of whom I will say "that was unexpected and brilliant." I ain't holding out a whole lotta hope for that.

Didn't Riggleman resign mid-season in Washington last year?  If he got frustrated with a young team on the very verge of a huge step up, I cannot imagine what would happen to him with this bunch.

I said it a few days (or weeks?) ago: the next guy is also a sacrificial lamb, and it doesn't really matter who it is. The hire that matters will take place two years from now, when the team is starting to show signs of competitiveness. Worrying about the next guy up is pointless.

I understand your overall point, but I disagree that whoever the next manager is doesn't really matter, or it is pointless to worry about it.  I think it matters, in the sense that you cannot get "there" from here, otherwise.  Just throwing the managerial equivalent of raw meat out there for sacrifice will send the whole operation reeling even further backwards.  Then they have even further to go to catch up.

[roadrunner]

What about the first base coach?  Approve of that too?  Just wondering if you are capable of criticizing them for anything at all.

It's hard for me to get worked up over first base coaches one way or the other.

I've been on board with just about every decision Cranestolos and Luhnow have made with the exception of the ugly signs in left field and potentially bringing in the CF fence.  All of my beef with the state of the franchise is directed at Drayton.

[HudsonHawk]

I agree. Riggleman's a retread. He has had his chances and hasn't won very much. Of course, the club was improving in Washington when he was shitcanned. I want to see a creative, innovative hire-someone of whom I will say "that was unexpected and brilliant." I ain't holding out a whole lotta hope for that.

A manager is only as brilliant as his starting pitcher. Or something to that effect. Tired old retreads can save the day, if you have some talent. Witness Joe Torre or Bobby Cox. Or are you really hoping for the Larry Dierker kind of unexpected brilliance?  Bottom line: no one from Jim Riggleman to John McGraw is fixing anything until there is some Major League talent in the dugout.

[strosrays]

All of my beef with the state of the franchise is directed at Drayton.

Two words:  Let it go.

[HudsonHawk]

I've been on board with just about every decision Cranestolos and Luhnow have made with the exception of the ugly signs in left field...

We discussed these last night. We decided they weren't nearly as gaudy as we expected. Not sure if that's good or bad.

[roadrunner]

Two words:  Let it go.

That's three words.  And I think next season really will feel like a new direction with no remaining pieces from the Drayton-era...all the way down to the unis.

[roadrunner]

We discussed these last night. We decided they weren't nearly as gaudy as we expected. Not sure if that's good or bad.

I prefer those signs over the chick fil a fowl poles, but that is not saying much.

[Arky Vaughan]

Jesus H. Christ couldn't win with this team.  Might be a really spiffy player-manager though.

Are you trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

[MusicMan]

We discussed these last night. We decided they weren't nearly as gaudy as we expected. Not sure if that's good or bad.

When you're expecting to get kicked in the balls, that punch to the stomach doesn't feel as bad.

[austro]

We discussed these last night. We decided they weren't nearly as gaudy as we expected. Not sure if that's good or bad.

I was struck by the fact that only half of them were actually "filled". I was under the impression that all of them were already spoken for.

[roadrunner]

The players found out via Twitter? Chickenshit.

I love this.  You realize the 75% of the roster probably met Mills within the last 2 months?  It's 2012 and Twitter is Twitter.  That shit is going to happen.  
 

[austro]

It's 2012 and Twitter is Twitter.  That shit is going to happen. 

The race to the bottom continues apace.

[MusicMan]

I was struck by the fact that only half of them were actually "filled". I was under the impression that all of them were already spoken for.

They only got halfway done?  Is this an A&M job?

[jbm]

I was struck by the fact that only half of them were actually "filled". I was under the impression that all of them were already spoken for.

My guess is that all the other companies simply hate inner city kids.

[HudsonHawk]

I prefer those signs over the chick fil a fowl poles, but that is not saying much.

I don't get why everyone is down on the fowl poles. Adds on the outfield walls are as much a Major League tradition as cracker jacks and penicillin.

[MusicMan]

I don't get why everyone is down on the fowl poles. Adds on the outfield walls are as much a Major League tradition as cracker jacks and penicillin.

(a) Ads on the foul poles are not a tradition; (b) they're very tacky ads.

[roadrunner]

I don't get why everyone is down on the fowl poles. Adds on the outfield walls are as much a Major League tradition as cracker jacks and penicillin.

Yeah I am fine with general signs on walls and things of that nature.  For some reason I feel like the foul poles are more like a base or the mound than they are an outfield wall.

[austro]

Yeah I am fine with general signs on walls and things of that nature.  For some reason I feel like the foul poles are more like a base or the mound than they are an outfield wall.

I resent the glorification of misspelling. Although I fully realize that's a losing battle.

[HudsonHawk]

Yeah I am fine with general signs on walls and things of that nature.  For some reason I feel like the foul poles are more like a base or the mound than they are an outfield wall.

Why?  The poles aren't even in the field of play, unlike the walls. I guess I just chuckle at those who complain about ads at the ballpark.

[chuck]

I don't get why everyone is down on the fowl poles. Adds on the outfield walls are as much a Major League tradition as cracker jacks and penicillin.

Cracker JACK, goddam it.

[MusicMan]

Cracker JACK, goddam it.

You can't say goddam on the air!

[HudsonHawk]

Cracker JACK, goddam it.

What if I had more than one bag?

[BudGirl]

We discussed these last night. We decided they weren't nearly as gaudy as we expected. Not sure if that's good or bad.

I missed that discussion because I respectfully disagree. I HATE them.

[Mr. Happy]

A manager is only as brilliant as his starting pitcher. Or something to that effect. Tired old retreads can save the day, if you have some talent. Witness Joe Torre or Bobby Cox. Or are you really hoping for the Larry Dierker kind of unexpected brilliance?  Bottom line: no one from Jim Riggleman to John McGraw is fixing anything until there is some Major League talent in the dugout.

I agree. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. A Larry Dierker-type hire would be very much welcomed, but I don't see it happening.

[subnuclear]

I had a deep insight into something or another, but 23 replies occuried in the time I took to type it so screw it.

[juliogotay]

I heard Luhnow being interviewed by Milo on the radio pre-game. Luhnow said all the right things about Mills being a good baseball man, he'll be fine and land on his feet,etc...but closed with a comment about expecting the team to cut down on the mental mistakes like baserunning errors and throwing to the wrong base.

[MusicMan]

I heard Luhnow being interviewed by Milo on the radio pre-game. Luhnow said all the right things about Mills being a good baseball man, he'll be fine and land on his feet,etc...but closed with a comment about expecting the team to cut down on the mental mistakes like baserunning errors and throwing to the wrong base.

So we need a good teacher, a sacrificial lamb, someone who won't care if the fans boo him every game.

Bring back Jimy.

[chuck]

What if I had more than one bag?

Crackers Jack.

[Ron Brand]

You can't say goddam on the air!

It's goddamn, goddamnit!

[Mr. Happy]

It's goddamn, goddamnit!

We are all testy tonight.

[moriartp]

It's goddamn, goddamnit!

It's goddammit, goddammit.

[Noe]

I heard Luhnow being interviewed by Milo on the radio pre-game. Luhnow said all the right things about Mills being a good baseball man, he'll be fine and land on his feet,etc...but closed with a comment about expecting the team to cut down on the mental mistakes like baserunning errors and throwing to the wrong base.

Cue Justin Maxwell!

[Noe]

I missed that discussion because I respectfully disagree. I HATE them.

They weren't that bad... but then again, they weren't expected to be anything to marvel at either.

[strosrays]

I had a deep insight into something or another, but 23 replies occuried in the time I took to type it so screw it.

The question is:  Are you, or are you not, a rocket scientist?

And if you are, then ... um ... well, I forgot.

[strosrays]

I resent the glorification of misspelling. Although I fully realize that's a losing battle.

It's okay to misspell shit intentionally on a public message board in an increasingly desperate attempt to get laughs, though.  Right?

[Mr. Happy]

The question is:  Are you, or are you not, a rocket scientist?

And if you are, then ... um ... well, I forgot.

He may not be, but he plays one in real life.

[VirtualBob]

It's okay to misspell shit intentionally on a public message board in an increasingly desperate attempt to get laughs, though.  Right?

How does one misspell "shit"?  It is pretty easy to spell.

[Ron Brand]

How does one misspell "shit"?  It is pretty easy to spell.

Shite.

[Gizzmonic]

How does one misspell "shit"?  It is pretty easy to spell.

S-E-L-I-G

[geezerdonk]

It's okay to misspell shit intentionally on a public message board in an increasingly desperate attempt to get laughs, though.  Right?

That role has been filled for quite some time.

[geezerdonk]

If they really do hire Riggelman, that would be a clear indication (to me, anyway) that they are not serious.  Or that they just don't fucking get it.

Either way, not good.

Or both.

[juliogotay]

Or both.

I don't know if this management team will get it right but they do have  a plan. To say they don't have a clue is ridiculous. Luhnow has a track record.

[subnuclear]

I don't know if this management team will get it right but they do have  a plan. To say they don't have a clue is ridiculous. Luhnow has a track record.

To be precise, Luhnow has a baseball track record, though not at GM. Postolos has a professional sports track record. The ownership does not have a track record.

[jbm]

I don't know if this management team will get it right but they do have  a plan. To say they don't have a clue is ridiculous. Luhnow has a track record.

I agree that he has a plan.  I expect it will bear fruit, but how much is still uncertain.  

However, Luhnow does not have a track record, for this endevour at least.  He was a scouting director and head of player development, IIRC; he wasn't the GM who constructed the Cardinal championship teams, or the GM who acquired the core talent there.  

Just saying that completely gutting a club and building a club from the ground up is not something on his resume.  

[Limey]

I resent the glorification of misspelling. Although I fully realize that's a losing battle.

I resent the glorification of Miss Spelling too.

[Reuben]

Cue Justin Maxwell nearly every player on the team!

FIFY

[Mr. Happy]

I agree that he has a plan.  I expect it will bear fruit, but how much is still uncertain.  

However, Luhnow does not have a track record, for this endevour at least.  He was a scouting director and head of player development, IIRC; he wasn't the GM who constructed the Cardinal championship teams, or the GM who acquired the core talent there.  

Just saying that completely gutting a club and building a club from the ground up is not something on his resume.  

But not too many folks in the game have that in their resumes either. I like his talent evaluation and acquisition skills and believe that he can do it.

[Bench]

Why?  The poles aren't even in the field of play, unlike the walls. I guess I just chuckle at those who complain about ads at the ballpark.

The poles aren't in the field of play?  How come when somebody hits them it's a home run and not a fowl ball (just merely a foul pun)?

[VirtualBob]

S-E-L-I-G

Now that I think about it, you may actually have the correct spelling.  Sorry for my confusion.

[HudsonHawk]

The poles aren't in the field of play?  How come when somebody hits them it's a home run and not a fowl ball (just merely a foul pun)?

Because hitting them means the ball left the field of play in fair territory.  That's their purpose.

[Bench]

Because hitting them means the ball left the field of play in fair territory.  That's their purpose.

I thought promoting illiteracy and homophobia was the purpose.  Two great tastes that taste great together!

[SoonerJim]

I agree. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. A Larry Dierker-type hire would be very much welcomed, but I don't see it happening.

Larry Dierker was quoted in today's lengthy USA Today article on how long the turnaround would take. He replied, "three to 20 years".

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/astros/story/2012-08-19/woeful-astros-in-long-haul-rebuild/57148082/1

[EasTexAstro]

Larry Dierker was quoted in today's lengthy USA Today article on how long the turnaround would take. He replied, "three to 20 years".

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/astros/story/2012-08-19/woeful-astros-in-long-haul-rebuild/57148082/1

So, there's a chance?

[Mr. Happy]

Because hitting them means the ball left the field of play in fair territory.  That's their purpose.

As Warner Wolf is fond of saying, they should call them the "fair poles."

[ferret]

Crane said he lost the clubhouse.  Mills didn't lose the clubhouse, you fucking traded it.   How are you surprised when the stated plan is to trade everyone so you can "stock pile" "talent" (Dierker's comment, if they were prospects they wouldnt be trading 3 of them is perfect.) so the team can compete in 2 or 3 years?  Go ahead and fire the guy but don't complain that he couldn't get the placeholders he's been given to fill out a lineup to have a team cheer before every game(loss).

[Andyzipp]

With full acknowledgement that there isn't a single talented player on the major league roster at this point, and all of them have been rushed to this point, who, exactly is responsible for teaching the players and/or holding them accountable for base running?

[HudsonHawk]

With full acknowledgement that there isn't a single talented player on the major league roster at this point, and all of them have been rushed to this point, who, exactly is responsible for teaching the players and/or holding them accountable for base running?

Their Little League coaches.

[Andyzipp]

Their Little League coaches.

So no one at any level of pro ball, then?

[Limey]

So no one at any level of pro ball, then?

I'll say it:  the AAA coaches.

[MusicMan]

I'll say it:  the AAA coaches.

Counting on auto mechanics is a questionable approach.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I'm getting a Cecil Cooper vibe from the new guy.  This should be fun. 

[Mr. Happy]

Crane said he lost the clubhouse.  Mills didn't lose the clubhouse, you fucking traded it.   How are you surprised when the stated plan is to trade everyone so you can "stock pile" "talent" (Dierker's comment, if they were prospects they wouldnt be trading 3 of them is perfect.) so the team can compete in 2 or 3 years?  Go ahead and fire the guy but don't complain that he couldn't get the placeholders he's been given to fill out a lineup to have a team cheer before every game(loss).

Did Crane really say that? If so, that's pretty tacky and chicken shit.

[ferret]

With full acknowledgement that there isn't a single talented player on the major league roster at this point, and all of them have been rushed to this point, who, exactly is responsible for teaching the players and/or holding them accountable for base running?

During which season?  You could ask Larry Dierker.

[ferret]

Did Crane really say that? If so, that's pretty tacky and chicken shit.

I try not to make things up.  Reality is pretty shitty as it is without me inventing more of it.

Randy Harvey wrote,

Some close to Crane, who don’t want to be identified because they want to remain close to him, say he is sincere about that ("...creating a culture of winning from the bottom up.”) but, meantime, can hardly bear the losing. He did, after all, make his money in overnight shipping. He prefers results sooner than later. The thing he really couldn’t bear, they said, was the seeming nonchalance in Mills’ clubhouse.
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2012/08/20/harvey-for-astros-not-everything-can-change-overnight/?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:9bd62d73-15cb-4ce1-80ff-2099a391567e

Not sure yet if Harvey is in the same league as Richard Justice in printing complete bullshit.

[subnuclear]

It's weird that they said they made the decision a week ago, which is when they were on their big 2-game win streak against the Brewers. Maybe it was the Nationals series and the publicity from the improvisational dance trio. I dunno.

[Mr. Happy]

I try not to make things up.  Reality is pretty shitty as it is without me inventing more of it.

Randy Harvey wrote,

Some close to Crane, who don’t want to be identified because they want to remain close to him, say he is sincere about that ("...creating a culture of winning from the bottom up.”) but, meantime, can hardly bear the losing. He did, after all, make his money in overnight shipping. He prefers results sooner than later. The thing he really couldn’t bear, they said, was the seeming nonchalance in Mills’ clubhouse.
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2012/08/20/harvey-for-astros-not-everything-can-change-overnight/?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:9bd62d73-15cb-4ce1-80ff-2099a391567e

Not sure yet if Harvey is in the same league as Richard Justice in printing complete bullshit.

Well, some of those players have appeared too comfortable wearing big league unis and playing like the minor leaguers that just about all of them are. Millsie probably was numb to the losing since the club lost so often. However, the club is losing right now as much if not moreso because of the systematic dismantling of any semblance of big league players (Altuve and Harrell belong--the rest, I'm not so sure) via trades.

[subnuclear]

Some close to Crane, who don’t want to be identified because they want to remain close to him, say he is sincere about that ("...creating a culture of winning from the bottom up.”) but, meantime, can hardly bear the losing. He did, after all, make his money in overnight shipping. He prefers results sooner than later. The thing he really couldn’t bear, they said, was the seeming nonchalance in Mills’ clubhouse.
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2012/08/20/harvey-for-astros-not-everything-can-change-overnight/?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:9bd62d73-15cb-4ce1-80ff-2099a391567e

Ok I hadn't read that before my previous post. Harvey's source seems to agree that it was the Nationals series and the owner just got mad and fired him. Great.

[HudsonHawk]

So no one at any level of pro ball, then?

Well holding them accountable is certainly the manager.  But I don't agree that they should be learning basic baseball fundementals at the Major League level. 

[Taras Bulba]

I thought promoting illiteracy and homophobia was the purpose.  Two great tastes that taste great together!

I didn't notice that.  I thought the owner was asked what he thought about gay marriage and he said he and the other owners were against it.  But, I could have missed the other.

[Limey]

I didn't notice that.  I thought the owner was asked what he thought about gay marriage and he said he and the other owners were against it.  But, I could have missed the other.

"Eet moor chikin"

[Bench]

I didn't notice that.  I thought the owner was asked what he thought about gay marriage and he said he and the other owners were against it.  But, I could have missed the other.

And yet they get hung up on war profiteering.  An odd bunch.

[strosrays]

Today, Jim Bowden (yeah, I know, Jim Bowden) said that few if any of the young minor leaguers (or, if you must, prospects) recently acquired are anywhere near ready to make their MLB debuts, much less become regulars.  Many are at A ball level or less.  He said it might be 3-5 years before anyone can even tell if Luhnow, et al, made decent trades, or not.

He also said the move to the AL means the next few years are going to be even worse than 2011-2012.  Whether he is right about that or not, I don't know ... but he is speaking to my worst fears here.  The AL West is much stronger than the non-Houston teams in the NL Central. Texas and LAAoA are powerhouses, Oakland is getting good, and Seattle is quietly improving.  No Humpty's in the division like the FTCs and Brewers.  I would add that most of the rest of the AL is likely to feast on the Astros, too; especially if they keep running wannabes and has-beens and never-wases out there in lieu of a real MLB pitching staff.

I hope Bowden (and I) is/am wrong.  But it is possible we will look back on 2012 as relatively pleasant compared to what is coming up.

[Reuben]

Today, Jim Bowden (yeah, I know, Jim Bowden) said that few if any of the young minor leaguers (or, if you must, prospects) recently acquired are anywhere near ready to make their MLB debuts, much less become regulars.  Many are at A ball level or less.  He said it might be 3-5 years before anyone can even tell if Luhnow, et al, made decent trades, or not.

He also said the move to the AL means the next few years are going to be even worse than 2011-2012.  Whether he is right about that or not, I don't know ... but he is speaking to my worst fears here.  The AL West is much stronger than the non-Houston teams in the NL Central. Texas and LAAoA are powerhouses, Oakland is getting good, and Seattle is quietly improving.  No Humpty's in the division like the FTCs and Brewers.  I would add that most of the rest of the AL is likely to feast on the Astros, too; especially if they keep running wannabes and has-beens and never-wases out there in lieu of a real MLB pitching staff.

I hope Bowden (and I) is/am wrong.  But it is possible we will look back on 2012 as relatively pleasant compared to what is coming up.

This is my fear too. The AL West teams are considerably better than the current NL Central foes. But I also have a (perhaps foolish) hope that Luhnow will spend a little bit of cash to grab a few decent pitchers this winter. Other than Cosart, there's not really anyone that you worry about "blocking" in the next year, and, if recent quotes (the USA Today article maybe?) are to be believed, Luhnow would've preferred to let Lyles and Keuchel both spend the whole year in AAA this year, but for the lack of depth.

Basically, if they spend a little money to bring in a few decent veterans, it could help prevent a 120+ loss season. Fingers crossed.

[Mr. Happy]

Today, Jim Bowden (yeah, I know, Jim Bowden) said that few if any of the young minor leaguers (or, if you must, prospects) recently acquired are anywhere near ready to make their MLB debuts, much less become regulars.  Many are at A ball level or less.  He said it might be 3-5 years before anyone can even tell if Luhnow, et al, made decent trades, or not.

He also said the move to the AL means the next few years are going to be even worse than 2011-2012.  Whether he is right about that or not, I don't know ... but he is speaking to my worst fears here.  The AL West is much stronger than the non-Houston teams in the NL Central. Texas and LAAoA are powerhouses, Oakland is getting good, and Seattle is quietly improving.  No Humpty's in the division like the FTCs and Brewers.  I would add that most of the rest of the AL is likely to feast on the Astros, too; especially if they keep running wannabes and has-beens and never-wases out there in lieu of a real MLB pitching staff.

I hope Bowden (and I) is/am wrong.  But it is possible we will look back on 2012 as relatively pleasant compared to what is coming up.

Bowden is a far better peanut gallery guy than he was a GM. This is worrisome to be sure. Could 30 wins be a possibility next season?

[chuck]

Not sure yet if Harvey is in the same league as Richard Justice in printing complete bullshit.

Me either but he is certainly dumber than Justice. That reminds me, McTaggart's email got hacked and his account has been sending me spam all day.

[VirtualBob]

Bowden is a far better peanut gallery guy than he was a GM. This is worrisome to be sure. Could 30 wins be a possibility next season?

I'll take the "over" (but I had to think about it some).

[SoonerJim]

I'll take the "over" (but I had to think about it some).

The Spiders are too remote to draw any comparisons. The '62 Mets went 40-120, so that's the benchmark upon which the baseball world will be fixated in 2013.

[Andyzipp]

The Spiders are too remote to draw any comparisons. The '62 Mets went 40-120, so that's the benchmark upon which the baseball world will be fixated in 2013.

Can the Astros win two more games this season?  The drama is...dramatic.

[austro]

Can the Astros win two more games this season?  The drama is...dramatic.

The close with 3 at the Cubs, right?

[SoonerJim]

The close with 3 at the Cubs, right?

Well that's a sweep right there!

[juliogotay]

Well that's a sweep right there!

For who?

[SoonerJim]

For who?

LOL, I'm still deciding! My dilemma is, will the 2013 Astros be more lovable than the '62 Mets? They had Casey Stengel, who is  unavailable, but Don Zimmer is comfortably in retirement and could rise to the challenge.

[juliogotay]

LOL, I'm still deciding! My dilemma is, will the 2013 Astros be more lovable than the '62 Mets? They had Casey Stengel, who is  unavailable, but Don Zimmer is comfortably in retirement and could rise to the challenge.

I'm not sure Houston has won a game at Wrigley this year.

[JackAstro]

I'm not sure Houston has won a game at Wrigley this year.

Yep, beat them 10-1 there last week. PS fuck them.