Author Topic: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!  (Read 21356 times)

Noe

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I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« on: May 22, 2012, 11:16:33 pm »
Actually, I went to go watch the little leaguers play tonight. And truth be told, I didn't really go watch the little leaguers play, I was walking my dog and decided to watch the tykes play. What attracted me to the games being played in the eight *(yes, count'em... 8 friggin fields)* fields was the amount of whoppin' and hollerin' going on. My dog was interested too, so off we went.

I got there in time to catch the end of a 7 year old game going on, last inning, the Cubs *(yes, THE CUBS!)* are up by one run in the last inning, the Yankees are batting. I overheard a couple talking near my dog and I that this was the playoff elimination games and the next night, winners play on, losers go home. BTW - my dog was not allowed into the park, so he and I had to hang out by the fence outside the park. No problem, like the view from out there any way. We're situated near the first base line, with a clear view of the first base bag. This is going to be important later on.

Bases loaded, two outs, down by one and the pitcher for the Cubs, a big, barrel chested kid that looks more like 14 than 7, is throwing heat... but with not much control. He strikes out two kids already who dared to swing at his heat, while the other three kids get on by bases on balls. Manager calls time out and tells the kid to calm down and throw strikes... even if the kid hits the ball, trust your fielders to make the play. I can hear the instruction and nod in agreement with coach.  So the next kid comes up to bat and he looks like maybe he's the best player on the other team, a tall, lanky kid who just looks like he's already a ballplayer. First pitch is a heater down the middle of the plate and the kid fouls the ball back. Next pitch is another heater, swinganamiss. Now you can hear all the chatter from the Cubs on the field and the parents in the stands... "One more! One more! Come on Buddy, one more!".

Next pitch is a fastball right down broadway and the kid takes a hack but is late with his swing. It's a bouncing ball to second base, and the second baseman fields the ball easily... but...

OH NO! First baseman is asleep, and doesn't run to the bag... so the second baseman double clutches... then throws the ball to let the first baseman catch and run to the bag at the same time. Nice play by little second baseman, and the first baseman is now in full possession of the ball and from my view, he can beat the runner to the bag easily. But just like his unfortunate panic move of freezing on the ground ball, he freezes as he runs to the bag. I mean he is right next to the bag but he's not stomping his foot on the pillow at all. He is looking, instead, at the runner barreling towards him, and he's clutching the ball in his glove out in front of him waiting, waiting, waiting.... (I turn to my dog and say "oh-oh, this is not good Slinkerfink!") So the runner arrives and with a deft move, he sticks his long right leg out to touch the bag and then veer to the outside, contortionist would have been proud of the somewhat Matrix move the kid makes to avoid the tag! But the tag is made, but high about chest level... while you can clearly see the foot well out in front of the body already on the base. "SAFE!!!!" yells the umpire and the kids start to go crazy, the tying run has scored. But...

No one is calling time out and the umpire isn't going to just stop play for nothing. Kid who is sitting on third on his own (because his third base coach is looking towards the on-deck circle to see who is next to bat). All of a sudden the kid on third breaks for home. Everyone screams for the first baseman to throw home, which he does... it's going to be close. "SAFE!!!" yells the home plate umpire. This time I disagree with the call, he looked out to me. Game over, the young Cubbies are out of the playoffs in the most cruel manner to lose a game... when you have your head up your arse and worry about umpires more than you do the play at hand. Kids start to cry, some throw their gloves in a temper tantrum, the coach is arguing with the first base umpire and the parents are going absolutely nuts.

"Slinks, we better go, it's going to get ugly" I say to my doggie, who is sniffing around the nearest tree from some reason. Sure enough, the coach is satisfied his team lost the other team won and he needs to control his kids and get them to buck up and go shake hands with the winners. Which they do, and all seems to be coming back in order. But one particular angry Dad is not appeased. He starts to yell so loud, even where I was situated, I could hear every curse word uttered... in front of the kids and all other smaller tykes there to watch big brother play baseball. So you think maybe some other parent or even the coach will tell the guy to shut up. Well, they didn't. In fact, they join in (not the coach, he's now trying to sit his guys on the grass to explain to them that sometimes this is just the way it happens in baseball... especially to any team that dares call themselves "Cubs". Okay, the last part he didn't say, I added that myself in my own head. So here is the very eerire scene, coach is sitting with kids trying to teach them about winning/losing, while a few feet to the left of the kids is a gang of parents now chasing the umpires towards the concession stand yelling all sorts of things. The umpires decide they had enough and make a beeline to their cars to just leave. Well, unfortunately for me, they are parked near where I'm standing. In particular nastiness, one mother was just unstoppable in her tirade against the umpire at first. A guy who made the right call. The home plate umpire was not really attacked because for some reason all the blame was being placed on the first base umpire for some reason.

I remind myself again that this is what I hate about little league baseball. Kids being put in emotionally charged situations as if they're major leaguers and the fans.... errr... parents acting like it's game seven of the World Series... just too much. So Slinky and I walk away from it all, but in our trek through a path from the park to our community, I notice now that the vitrolic Mom has now parked her car with her kid away from everyone and in a darker area of the parking lot. Said darker area is one my dog and I must pass. What I witnessed next was surreal. Mom is berating her kid, who upon closer inspection is the big, burly kid who was pitching for the Cubs. Mom has finger pointing right in his barrel chest saying things like "You cost us that game. Why didn't you strike him out? Huh? What's the matter with you?" All the kid could say in return was "It was the umpire's fault, not mine!" And Dad is in the passenger side smoking a cigarette. I glance his way as Slinks and I walk by, and he has this grin on his face like he's got some sort of sick pleasure out of the whole messy situation. I control my gestures so as not to show the man how utterly amazed I am at all this, but it was hard. I came home and thought "I'll never, ever, ever, ever volunteer to coach a little league team that plays in that league!" I'm going to keep that promise too. Every week they have an overflow crowd filling up all 8 fields with all these major league wannabe, parent pleasers and their sick parents.

There is something very unhealthy going on, but no one would dare call the police and say "Can you arrest them all for being stupid?"
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:18:59 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 12:19:44 am »
Wow. Not surprising. But wow all the same.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 06:09:37 am »
7 year old kid pitch?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 07:44:13 am »
7 year old kid pitch?

We threw to each other at that age.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 08:10:14 am »
Are you sure it wasn't a Sam Bass league?  I had that exact experience in a league now affiliated with Sam Bass Baseball.  My experience with the area LL, was the complete opposite.  There was a clear line developing between the two leagues. You went to LL if you just wanted to have fun. Sam Bass is where the real players went because (and I quote) "If you aren't select league by 11, you suck."  - Coach on team I was assisting with...  I may have mentioned this before, my kid quit organized baseball after that season.  I still throw the nerf ball to him for hitting practice, which he loves, but he has no desire to ever play in a league.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 08:21:09 am »
Are you sure it wasn't a Sam Bass league?  I had that exact experience in a league now affiliated with Sam Bass Baseball.  My experience with the area LL, was the complete opposite.  There was a clear line developing between the two leagues. You went to LL if you just wanted to have fun. Sam Bass is where the real players went because (and I quote) "If you aren't select league by 11, you suck."  - Coach on team I was assisting with...  I may have mentioned this before, my kid quit organized baseball after that season.  I still throw the nerf ball to him for hitting practice, which he loves, but he has no desire to ever play in a league.

A guy I work with rambles on about how "select leagues" are for the kids who can't play. The real kids play "premier".  And how if you're not "premier" by the time you're 8, you have no shot at pro ball. I just roll my eyes and think "8-year olds , dude?"
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 08:46:08 am »
Ramble, ramble,ramble..... I came home and thought "I'll never, ever, ever, ever volunteer to coach a little league team that plays in that league!" Truth.

I'm already there.  Trying to appease the parents' wishes and have them control their emotions concerning something they know little to nothing about, just doesn't appeal to me anymore.  It causes unease in the community, since the community is smaller in my case.  Poor kids.

Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 08:50:29 am »
A guy I work with rambles on about how "select leagues" are for the kids who can't play. The real kids play "premier".  And how if you're not "premier" by the time you're 8, you have no shot at pro ball. I just roll my eyes and think "8-year olds , dude?"

This league is considered a "premiere" league. It is very, very, very exclusive, so even if I sauntered over and told them I'd like to volunteer, I doubt they'd take me. I just don't look the part. Each and every coach looks like a former ball player, either professional or college. One family I know had their kid in that league (and it didn't surprise me at all). Their coach was a guy who was playing in the Independent League trying to catch on with a major league club.

The parents are intense over there. In fact, when I told my wife this story, she laughed and said two things to me:

1. "Was Theresa there tonight? Wasn't she banned from attending games for a month because she cussed out an umpire?" (My answers were "No" and "Oh yeah, you're right!")
2. "Didn't you get suspended for two games for cussing out an umpire?" (My answer: "Yes, but that was only one time in my 25 years of playing ball. The guy was a jerk and baited me into the fight... and I was wrong to do it too, so I deserved the suspension. But honey, that was an adult league acting like children. These are children trying to act like bad adults and adults acting even worse! All in the somewhat name of baseball. Makes me sick!")
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 09:09:54 am by Noe in Austin »

Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 08:51:21 am »
7 year old kid pitch?

Surprising, eh? There were even smaller kids than this one field and there was no coach pitch.

Andyzipp

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 09:12:02 am »
My kids (Jake is 9 now, and Claire, born during the 2005 World Series, is 6) play in what is mostly a rec league at Oaks Dads' Club.  I don't care for the concept of select/premier/traveling/etc. ball, and so it's never occurred to put my kids in that type of environment.  I like the idea that the teams are all made up from kids in the neighborhood, most of which are just as pleased with the idea of getting a sno-cone after the game as they are to play in the game.  And that outside of 2 contract players (the coaches' kids, usually) everyone gets placed on teams via a draft.

Because of that, most of the kids have played on or against the other kids in the league since T-Ball, and the parents have been know to openly root for kids on the other teams.  Yelling at or taunting a kid that doesn't belong to you gets you thrown out.   I'm also on the Board of Directors for said league.  Most of the "parenting" issues we have are around the all-star team selections, and general hatred of one particular umpire (who invites the attention).  That and bounced registration checks.  On the other hand, we have been known to run off coaches and families who cause problems.

Whatever the reason, it's still competitive and the boys and girls still want to win, but it's a little bit more peaceful than what I've seen/heard of other leagues.  The kids have time to learn and grow to love the game, and that's what we're shooting for.

And in the (somewhat) opposite spirit of what I just posted, [parentbrag] Claire made the All-Star team for 6U softball. After the first practice yesterday, she asked for the coach for the catchers' gear.  As I overheard, she explained that there was another girl who played second base (Claire's position this season) and the team might be "stronger" if that girl played second and Claire learned catcher. [/parentbrag]


Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 09:36:09 am »
Nice!

I have to share my coach stories now. I volunteered to coach my oldest when he was in Y-ball. He hated every minute of playing ball. Two years of torture for him (so he says now to me any chance he can get). I was the assistant coach actually and the guy who was the coach was an extremely nice guy. My son could care less about baseball, but he loved the snacks and juice and running the parent tunnel after every game. Then I volunteered to coach my youngest son in the same league. We thought for a few moments about checking out the league near my house (the premiere little league), but decided he should play y-Ball first and see if he even likes playing baseball. He did, although through his time in Y-Ball, my son was never the best hitter on the team. In fact, no amount of coaching on my part could get him to hit the ball any better than he did. My oldest, unfortunately, could hit a baseball a mile, even if I was pitching and threw him some heat. No problem, hand/eye coordination, everything needed to hit a baseball... and he just didn't want to play ball. The youngest tried hard, but never mastered it. But he loved playing baseball, donning a uni, sitting on the bench,  carrying his glove around, running around with his "pals".

So by the time I was a lead coach of a team, my son was in his last year. I had my first practice and noticed I had two kids on my team that could play. One was a shortstop and one was a first baseman. Both could field, throw, hit, and run well. I asked the parents about them and both told me (independent of each other) that they pulled their kids out of the premiere league and wanted to have them play Y-Ball one year to get them in a less intense environment. No playoffs, no nothing, just having fun playing baseball again. The kid who was the shortstop was good and the Dad told me his son sat the bench almost the entire season last year because the coach on that premiere team said he was not that good.

I could not believe my ears, this kid was amazingly good. But he was constantly told he was the worse player on his team. So that season, my own pride would not allow me to keep from pumping this kid up with encouragement, even when he made a mistake (which all kids do). So by the time the season was winding down, this kid was playing free and clear of looking over his shoulder thinking I was going to get on him for a mistake... and that in turn let his natural ability to shine and he played great. I overheard the Dad telling some other parents how proud he was of his son because they'd all come up to him and encourage him as well that his son was just a great little player. He would tell them "I learn something from Coach Noe this season... my son, Alonso, loves that Coach never gets angry or looks mad at me... Coach is so quiet and nice to the kids, always clapping his hands and telling them how good they're playing and when he wants to teach them something, he doesn't embarrass them in front of others. He tells them they are capable of catching a ball and they all do it!"

One other kid I will always remember is the one who had no skills whatsoever, but he wanted to play so badly. In fact, it was his next door neighbor's kid (a girl) who invited him to come play on my team at the Y. I put the kid in centerfield and then left and this was not to hide him at all. Kids were hitting some shots out to those fields. One time, a ball was roped out to left where he was playing. He screamed and with mouth wide open and eyes closed shut, he stuck his glove up hoping the ball would land in there. It didn't and rolled all the way to the wall. We had a rule in Y-Ball that the coaches could decide if kids were allowed to take more than two bases at a time. The other coach wanted to allow full base running and I conceded. So this was an inside the park homerun. My kid looked dejected out there in left, so from the bench I yelled out "Hey Brian!", "Yeah coach!", "Try to keep your mouth closed next time, we can't afford to have you eat a baseball, we only have a few in reserve" "Okay coach... thanks!" And that day, Brian had a smile on his face and parents were laughing behind me. A few patted me on the back. Brian then hit the game winning hit that day a couple of innings later.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 10:01:56 am »
A guy I work with rambles on about how "select leagues" are for the kids who can't play. The real kids play "premier".  And how if you're not "premier" by the time you're 8, you have no shot at pro ball. I just roll my eyes and think "8-year olds , dude?"

The first year a team can qualify to play as Premier is 10U. The pro ball comment is too stupid to address.

The perception of lunacy associated with "select" or "travel" teams is blown way out of proportion. There just as many batshit crazy parents that exist in local Little League or "Rec" leagues. My son has played in both and the biggest difference between the two is instead of 1 or 2 good players there are 10 or 11 good players on a "select" team. I will say the chaos gets less and less as my son gets older (currently 10U). The emotion displayed from Parents seems to be worse when the kids are younger. Plus as the kids get older most of the batshit crazt parents are r-u-n-o-f-t.
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Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 10:05:44 am »
The first year a team can qualify to play as Premier is 10U. The pro ball comment is too stupid to address.

The perception of lunacy associated with "select" or "travel" teams is blown way out of proportion. There just as many batshit crazy parents that exist in local Little League or "Rec" leagues. My son has played in both and the biggest difference between the two is instead of 1 or 2 good players there are 10 or 11 good players on a "select" team. I will say the chaos gets less and less as my son gets older (currently 10U). The emotion displayed from Parents seems to be worse when the kids are younger. Plus as the kids get older most of the batshit crazt parents are r-u-n-o-f-t.

I thought the league near my house considered itself as "premier", but these kids looked a lot smaller than 10. I saw the 10 year olds playing in an adjacent field. Maybe they run a permier league for the 10U and the rest is a regular little league for the smaller kids.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 10:08:46 am »
The first year a team can qualify to play as Premier is 10U. The pro ball comment is too stupid to address.

The perception of lunacy associated with "select" or "travel" teams is blown way out of proportion. There just as many batshit crazy parents that exist in local Little League or "Rec" leagues. My son has played in both and the biggest difference between the two is instead of 1 or 2 good players there are 10 or 11 good players on a "select" team. I will say the chaos gets less and less as my son gets older (currently 10U). The emotion displayed from Parents seems to be worse when the kids are younger. Plus as the kids get older most of the batshit crazt parents are r-u-n-o-f-t.

Certainly there are bad parents/coaches at every league.  And I will echo that the level of of insanity is inversely proportional to the age of the children involved.  T-Ball parents are the devil.

Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 10:15:38 am »
Certainly there are bad parents/coaches at every league.  And I will echo that the level of of insanity is inversely proportional to the age of the children involved.  T-Ball parents are the devil.

One t-ball parent on my youngest son's team (that I was an assistant coach for) was particularly nasty. He lasted all of two games before he was run off... by the other parents. Felt sorry for his son though, nice kid who just wanted to play ball.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 10:37:25 am »
I thought the league near my house considered itself as "premier", but these kids looked a lot smaller than 10. I saw the 10 year olds playing in an adjacent field. Maybe they run a permier league for the 10U and the rest is a regular little league for the smaller kids.

Noe, that may be, I was specifically refering to the levels of baseball associated with Nations Baseball, which is the largest (at least in the Houston area) organization that governs tournaments for youth baseball. There are three levels, Select, Elite, and Premier. Most leagues that play under Nations rules are "open" meaning a team from any of the three levels can participate. The tournaments have specific divisions for the different levels and a team can play "up", but not down a level depending on the team's classification.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 12:29:04 pm »
And in the (somewhat) opposite spirit of what I just posted, [parentbrag] Claire made the All-Star team for 6U softball. After the first practice yesterday, she asked for the coach for the catchers' gear.  As I overheard, she explained that there was another girl who played second base (Claire's position this season) and the team might be "stronger" if that girl played second and Claire learned catcher. [/parentbrag]

Someone must have told her catching was the quickest way to the big leagues.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 12:32:00 pm »
This league is considered a "premiere" league. It is very, very, very exclusive, so even if I sauntered over and told them I'd like to volunteer, I doubt they'd take me.

The funniest thing is, another guys claimed that "premier" league was for the losers...the real ballplayers played "elite league".  Ah...I see.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 12:34:22 pm »
The first year a team can qualify to play as Premier is 10U.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't 8 younger than 10?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 12:42:53 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't 8 younger than 10?

Yes, but 10U Premier is all 10 year olds and a lot of them are 5th graders with Summer birthdays, i.e. the oldest 10 year olds possible. There are zero 8 year olds playing Premier baseball under Nations Baseball.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 12:50:37 pm »
Yes, but 10U Premier is all 10 year olds and a lot of them are 5th graders with Summer birthdays, i.e. the oldest 10 year olds possible. There are zero 8 year olds playing Premier baseball under Nations Baseball.

So then it's just "10", not "10U".  The whole thing is just too ridiculous for words.

On a side note, when I played LL, summer birthdays usually made you younger in your age group, as the cutoff was August 1st.  Being that my birthday is July 28th, I was always the youngest player for my "age", and usually was playing with kids a full year older and grade ahead of me.  I understand they've changed that cutoff date, and I would now have a "Little League age" more in line with my actual age.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 12:52:34 pm by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 03:29:33 pm »
So, by the time they are in high school, the kids have never really played together in the summer as they were spread out amongst select, elite, premier, etc?  Do they even have legion ball for the older high schoolers anymore, or is it only for the scrubs?

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 05:36:22 pm »
Meanwhile there's some kid in San Pedro de Macoris fucking around in his grandmother's front yard playing with a broom handle and the top of a Pringles can who is going to smoke all these chalkies in about ten years.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 08:02:04 pm »
"chalkies"

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 11:14:00 pm »
Meanwhile there's some kid in San Pedro de Macoris fucking around in his grandmother's front yard playing with a broom handle and the top of a Pringles can who is going to smoke all these chalkies in about ten years.

And an old oven mitt for a glove! (ahem... yeah, from personal experience? You decide).

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2012, 07:23:29 am »
So, by the time they are in high school, the kids have never really played together in the summer as they were spread out amongst select, elite, premier, etc?  Do they even have legion ball for the older high schoolers anymore, or is it only for the scrubs?

The high school kids play something called Gold Gloves in the Summer. It's not mandatory, but strongly suggested. Especially, for the incoming Freshmen through incoming Juniors. After that, if the player is good enough, they play on "select" teams that act as showcase teams and go to individual showcase camps where scouts are present. The select, elite, premier thing is mainly for 8-14.

From what I have seen, Parents at the youth level "select" baseball are fueled primarily by two things, (1) ego, my kid is better than yours and he plays on X team, and (2) preparing the kid to make the high school team (mainly 12-14). Baseball in the Houston area is huge, bigger than you can probably imagine. The Gold Glove team for the incoming Freshmen at Seven Lakes High School in Katy had 77 kids tryout for a 12 man roster. All of which had at least 2-3 years of elite/premier experience. The Varsity team had 96 kids try out for a 30 man roster. The margin between these kids is razor thin and they all have years of advanced baseball experience. Unless a kid has Bryce Harper type talent, there is no way they are making the high school team without being prepared. Maybe in other parts of the US or even Texas, but not in the Houston metro area, it's just too competitive.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2012, 08:12:51 am »
The high school kids play something called Gold Gloves in the Summer. It's not mandatory, but strongly suggested. Especially, for the incoming Freshmen through incoming Juniors. After that, if the player is good enough, they play on "select" teams that act as showcase teams and go to individual showcase camps where scouts are present. The select, elite, premier thing is mainly for 8-14.

From what I have seen, Parents at the youth level "select" baseball are fueled primarily by two things, (1) ego, my kid is better than yours and he plays on X team, and (2) preparing the kid to make the high school team (mainly 12-14). Baseball in the Houston area is huge, bigger than you can probably imagine. The Gold Glove team for the incoming Freshmen at Seven Lakes High School in Katy had 77 kids tryout for a 12 man roster. All of which had at least 2-3 years of elite/premier experience. The Varsity team had 96 kids try out for a 30 man roster. The margin between these kids is razor thin and they all have years of advanced baseball experience. Unless a kid has Bryce Harper type talent, there is no way they are making the high school team without being prepared. Maybe in other parts of the US or even Texas, but not in the Houston metro area, it's just too competitive.

Kids make the high school team because they have talent, not because they played on X Select team when they were 12. Granted, it was 20 years ago but I remember my high school tryouts. I had just moved to Houston two days before the first day of tryouts. No one had ever seen me. There were probably 150 kids trying out for maybe 15 spots. Of course I made the team, displacing a kid who had played the year before. I think 99% of the "you have to play on X select team or attend showcase camps" to make the high school team is parents who refuse to accept that their kid just ain't that good.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 08:14:49 am by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2012, 08:16:49 am »
The high school kids play something called Gold Gloves in the Summer. It's not mandatory, but strongly suggested. Especially, for the incoming Freshmen through incoming Juniors. After that, if the player is good enough, they play on "select" teams that act as showcase teams and go to individual showcase camps where scouts are present. The select, elite, premier thing is mainly for 8-14.

From what I have seen, Parents at the youth level "select" baseball are fueled primarily by two things, (1) ego, my kid is better than yours and he plays on X team, and (2) preparing the kid to make the high school team (mainly 12-14). Baseball in the Houston area is huge, bigger than you can probably imagine. The Gold Glove team for the incoming Freshmen at Seven Lakes High School in Katy had 77 kids tryout for a 12 man roster. All of which had at least 2-3 years of elite/premier experience. The Varsity team had 96 kids try out for a 30 man roster. The margin between these kids is razor thin and they all have years of advanced baseball experience. Unless a kid has Bryce Harper type talent, there is no way they are making the high school team without being prepared. Maybe in other parts of the US or even Texas, but not in the Houston metro area, it's just too competitive.

Thanks for the info.  Didn't realize baseball had become that much more competitive.  We never had that interest when I was that age. 

So, if a kid doesn't make the Gold Glove team, what are their options for summer ball, in the Katy area for example?

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2012, 08:20:40 am »
Kids make the high school team because they have talent, not because they played on X Select team when they were 12.

I'm not saying that at all. But when you have so many kids trying out and the talent margin between them is so small, that the preperation of playing the at the "select" level is perceived to be an advantage.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2012, 08:23:15 am »
Thanks for the info.  Didn't realize baseball had become that much more competitive.  We never had that interest when I was that age. 

So, if a kid doesn't make the Gold Glove team, what are their options for summer ball, in the Katy area for example?

Playing on a "select" team.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2012, 08:27:20 am »
I'm not saying that at all. But when you have so many kids trying out and the talent margin between them is so small, that the preperation of playing the at the "select" level is perceived to be an advantage.

Of course it is. I'm not saying polish doesn't help, or that there isn't a thin line.  I'm saying 99% of the time, select ball isn't what provides it. I've seen plenty of select elite premier what have you kids play. The vast majority simply don't have the talent, and even more of the coaches don't know what the hell they're doing, they're just frustrated jock sniffers.  The lack of fundementals in most select/elite/premier is embarassing.

That, and most of the "perception" is with parents of kids who don't have the talent.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 08:28:55 am by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2012, 08:31:24 am »
Playing on a "select" team.

Sorry, I am braindead.  The stars go select, Golden Gloves is for the rest.

So, my question is: with so many kids interested in playing, is there enough room in the Golden Gloves league for all that want to play?

Also, are the "select" teams chosen by the coaches of the teams exclusively, or can kids just pay to join, even if they are not "select-level" talent? 

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2012, 08:37:53 am »
Sorry, I am braindead.  The stars go select, Golden Gloves is for the rest.

So, my question is: with so many kids interested in playing, is there enough room in the Golden Gloves league for all that want to play?

Also, are the "select" teams chosen by the coaches of the teams exclusively, or can kids just pay to join, even if they are not "select-level" talent? 

Don't know how much it's changed, but when I was in school, if you didn't make the high school team, that was pretty much it. There were no summer leagues for the rest. We bad Legion, but that was all high school team players.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2012, 08:40:07 am »
Sorry, I am braindead.  The stars go select, Golden Gloves is for the rest.

So, my question is: with so many kids interested in playing, is there enough room in the Golden Gloves league for all that want to play?

Also, are the "select" teams chosen by the coaches of the teams exclusively, or can kids just pay to join, even if they are not "select-level" talent? 

No, if you don't make your high school team, you should probably just kill yourself.

My issue with "select" baseball is that for a large number of the teams, the only thing select about them is their parents' willingness to pay the expenses to play on the team.  I have no doubt it can be beneficial for honing skills, but if the goal is making the high school team, it's another avenue.  The most talented kids are the ones who are going to get and all the tournament play in the world isn't going to change that.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2012, 08:41:01 am »
Don't know how much it's changed, but when I was in school, if you didn't make the high school team, that was pretty much it. There were no summer leagues for the rest. We bad Legion, but that was all high school team players.

Karl Young was in theory open to anyone, but everyone who played was on a high school team.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2012, 08:51:42 am »
.... and even more of the coaches don't know what the hell they're doing, they're just frustrated jock sniffers.  

You know the old saying about basketball coaches who have a loaded team of talented players, the elite... "All they have to do is roll the ball out to them and let them play!". Somehow that perception is common in the fields near my house. The coaches all look like major league ballplayers, or at least dress and act like them. Heck, if I saw one of them on the street, I'd say they were either former minor or major league players or guys who coach on a professional level (or college or high school ball).

I've noticed that they want kids who know how to play and have talent oozing out of them. Coach? Hardly, it is the closest thing I've seen to "roll the ball out to them and let them play". What is sad to me is there are kids that remind me of me so much. I had to work hard to play at a good enough level to hang with some pretty darn good players. Naturally talented was not a label I carried. However, with hard work, drills, and some real coaching from some players and my Dad, I became better than most of those "naturally" talented guys. I've seen some kids ride the bench on this league who, with a little bit of encouragement and coaching can play some darn good baseball. When I go and just watch the coaching that they do at practice, it sickens me. Lots of field practice for the guys who are the starting nine, lots of carrying bags, shagging baseballs, and wait your turn for the rest. Nothing in terms of showing a kid how to hold his hands, how to throw more accurately, nothing. Small little things that help those kids "get it" and become really good.

Really sad.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2012, 08:54:16 am »
Don't know how much it's changed, but when I was in school, if you didn't make the high school team, that was pretty much it. There were no summer leagues for the rest. We bad Legion, but that was all high school team players.
We had legion, and a summer league which had two levels.  I am pretty sure that any kid wanting to play baseball in the summer, up to their senior year, had a place to play, even if they were not going to make the high school team.   

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2012, 08:56:59 am »
Karl Young was in theory open to anyone, but everyone who played was on a high school team.

I was playing amateur ball at a young age, so the older guys I played with also had kids who played Karl Young ball (out near Northline Mall if I remember correctly). They'd ask me why I didn't play there, I was good enough. I would always remind them I went to a high school that did not have a baseball team, so there was no way they'd let me play. They'd shake their head in disbelief, but it was true.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2012, 08:57:46 am »
What happened to playing because it was fun?  Perhaps I was late to mature as I failed realize as someone lacking talent, I should quit what I wasn't good at.  Silly me...
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2012, 08:59:28 am »
We had legion, and a summer league which had two levels.  I am pretty sure that any kid wanting to play baseball in the summer, up to their senior year, had a place to play, even if they were not going to make the high school team.   

Amateur ball, but that won't help you at all in terms of getting noticed by anyone. It is strictly recreational. However, if you're trying to learn some things and apply them, this sort of league can help you work on your game. Not something I'd tell anyone to do nowadays though. Later, the Mens Senior Baseball League became the most fun time playing baseball for me and really where I met a lot of good players who still loved to play the game.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2012, 09:08:37 am »
I'm not saying that at all. But when you have so many kids trying out and the talent margin between them is so small, that the preperation of playing the at the "select" level is perceived to be an advantage.

I have two nephews who are coaching at the high school level right now. I think next time I see them I will ask them about how players are evaluated. One of those nephews played on select teams and then went on to be on a tournament elite team that was coached by Doug Drabek. Kyle Drabek was the star of the team, but my nephew was holding his own as the starting shortstop on the team when Kyle pitched (when Kyle did not pitch, he played shortstop). I never understood all the hoopla about that team, but later found out that my cousin's son was also playing on that team as the starting center fielder. He had high hopes to play for the University of Texas and when that did not happen, unfortunately for my cousin, his son became very disenchanted with life and went on to become a bum for a good long while. Now he's in the military getting his priorities straight, but this whole notion some kids get that they will easily get what they want from baseball simply because adults keep stroking their ego to squeeze the talent out of them for some sort of tournament glory is really sad sometimes.

This is where parents should be better influences than what a coach or elite team owner will ever be for the kid. But sadly, some parents just believe everything these guys will tell them about the kid and his chances to make it big!

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2012, 09:48:20 am »
Of course it is. I'm not saying polish doesn't help, or that there isn't a thin line.  I'm saying 99% of the time, select ball isn't what provides it. I've seen plenty of select elite premier what have you kids play. The vast majority simply don't have the talent, and even more of the coaches don't know what the hell they're doing, they're just frustrated jock sniffers.  The lack of fundementals in most select/elite/premier is embarassing.

That, and most of the "perception" is with parents of kids who don't have the talent.

I agree with you 100%. But the kids with talent are playing along side the no talent kids that are there becasue of mommy and daddy. In this day and age, a kid making the high school team doesn't play 10 games of LL during the Spring and then hit tennis balls with broomsticks with the boys next door during the Summer. Select, Elite, Premier and showcase are as ingrained in youth baseball as LL and sandlot was when we were kids.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2012, 09:57:14 am »
Sorry, I am braindead.  The stars go select, Golden Gloves is for the rest.

Gold Gloves is more eclusive than select at the high school level. In most cases, the kids that play on the GG teams are on the HS team, the rest can play select just to keep playing. Pony has a league that goes up 16 as well.

Quote
So, my question is: with so many kids interested in playing, is there enough room in the Golden Gloves league for all that want to play?

See above. There are a lot of select type teams.

Quote
Also, are the "select" teams chosen by the coaches of the teams exclusively, or can kids just pay to join, even if they are not "select-level" talent? 

Yes. The teams are selected by the coaches. There are a lot of kids that aren't good enough that have made their way onto the team somehow, especially at the select level. The kids that have little talent are fewer at the elite and premier levels. If a team at the higher levels has kids that don't belong, then they will get their ass kicked and the good players will just go to a different team.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2012, 10:00:29 am »
I have two nephews who are coaching at the high school level right now. I think next time I see them I will ask them about how players are evaluated. One of those nephews played on select teams and then went on to be on a tournament elite team that was coached by Doug Drabek. Kyle Drabek was the star of the team, but my nephew was holding his own as the starting shortstop on the team when Kyle pitched (when Kyle did not pitch, he played shortstop). I never understood all the hoopla about that team, but later found out that my cousin's son was also playing on that team as the starting center fielder. He had high hopes to play for the University of Texas and when that did not happen, unfortunately for my cousin, his son became very disenchanted with life and went on to become a bum for a good long while. Now he's in the military getting his priorities straight, but this whole notion some kids get that they will easily get what they want from baseball simply because adults keep stroking their ego to squeeze the talent out of them for some sort of tournament glory is really sad sometimes.

This is where parents should be better influences than what a coach or elite team owner will ever be for the kid. But sadly, some parents just believe everything these guys will tell them about the kid and his chances to make it big!

Your nephews played for the Heat, which is about as exclusive as it gets. Most of the kids on those teams are either drafted or go to D1 schools.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2012, 10:11:34 am »
a kid making the high school team doesn't play 10 games of LL during the Spring and then hit tennis balls with broomsticks with the boys next door during the Summer.

Understood. But it's not because he can't. As chuck points out, there are kids playing pickup games in a gravel yard, using tuna cans for balls and paper plates for gloves that get signed to pro contracts while the vast majority of select and showcase team kids are struggling to make the local JV squad.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2012, 10:24:25 am »
Your nephews played for the Heat, which is about as exclusive as it gets. Most of the kids on those teams are either drafted or go to D1 schools.

That's what I heard, which is why Jacob (my cousin's kid) was so distraught that the University of Texas wasn't interested. My nephew went on to play for TSU and when that program shut down, he went to HBU, where he really loved to go to study and get his degree. He is coaching high school ball right now but doesn't think he'll be in that profession very long (as far I can tell from talking to him at a wedding I attended a month ago). Another nephew coaches in Conroe (I think). He also plays in the MSBL, like I did.

Oh, and both my nephew and my cousin's son played on the first Houston Astros sponsored high school team. They made it to the championship game at Minute Maid their first year and lost to the LA Dodgers sponsored team. My nephew's proudest moment in that tourney was getting to meet Bagwell and take a picture with him while in full uniform warming up on the field (my nephew, not Baggy).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 10:28:40 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2012, 10:43:22 am »
Understood. But it's not because he can't. As chuck points out, there are kids playing pickup games in a gravel yard, using tuna cans for balls and paper plates for gloves that get signed to pro contracts while the vast majority of select and showcase team kids are struggling to make the local JV squad.

on my '97 team, there were two select players and all the rest were neighborhood league kids. the two select kids had the most talent, but did not come through any better in crucial situations than the neighborhood league kids did. our two select kids were not very good in our State Tournament loss.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2012, 11:09:44 am »
on my '97 team, there were two select players and all the rest were neighborhood league kids. the two select kids had the most talent, but did not come through any better in crucial situations than the neighborhood league kids did. our two select kids were not very good in our State Tournament loss.

My problem with "select" is twofold:

1.  Overbearing parents who want to separate kids into the "winners" and "losers" before the kids can even hold their gloves up.

2.  Kids who do nothing *but* baseball, all the time.  Playing 300+ games a year is not helping your 10 year old.  What *is* good is being well rounded.  Doing other things in the summer...going on a family trip to Wallyworld, going to another friend's birthday party, reading a book, going fishing...etc.  I also think kids who play multiple sports become better all-around athletes.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2012, 11:30:27 am »
There is something very unhealthy going on, but no one would dare call the police and say "Can you arrest them all for being stupid?"

Looks like pretty much every aspect of the evils of youth baseball have been touched on here.  I have seen some if not all of this myself over the years.  One thing that startled me that I've not seen mentioned has to do with fan (parent) decorum, but not so much with how parents scream and yell and berate their kids and generally conduct themselves as assholes at games (which, BTW, is nothing new. I remember as kids laughing at all the stupid-ass 1960s-70s dads who got way too wrapped up in games that even the kids playing didn't care that much about, when you got down to it.)

I think it was around the time my youngest son was playing "kid pitch" 7-8 years ago (at age eight) that I noticed a lot of the moms were coming to games dressed for comfort, shall we say.  Their comfort, I suppose, on the hot early summer evenings.  Like I assume a lot of the other post-adolescent to adult males in attendance, I remember being distinctly uncomfortable, trying not to be caught by my wife (or myself) overtly ogling the lovely, 30-something Ms. Smith down there, dressed in a halter top with plenty of boobage visible, and a pair of shorts she must have borrowed from her middle school age daughter.  She always seemed to have to bend over a lot, from the front or back, in front of the rest of the crowd.  (Oh darn, she dropped her keys again!)  Ms. Smith was the coach's wife (he was a really nice guy, a young attorney as I recall), and it seemed like she must have set the tone; for as the season went on, I noticed more and more moms, aunts, whatever, came to the games wearing less and less.

I started making sure not to miss any of those games, which was unhealthy, okay; but, hey - I was a grown-ass man. What I started to wonder was how distracting it was for the kids, on the field and the older brothers, cousins, etc. in the stands.  And what were these women thinking, dressing like 1970s porn stars to attend little league games?  I never was able to decide if this was just sick, or really, really sick.  My oversexed mind stayed too hot and bothered to think very clearly about it at all.

Maybe the kids noticed.  Maybe they did not.  I do know ... I am pretty sure in my LL days we never had to worry if somebody's mom was "hot" or not.  Gross!  Never even came up.

Talk about something unhealthy going on.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2012, 01:31:00 pm »
Maybe the kids noticed.  Maybe they did not.  I do know ... I am pretty sure in my LL days we never had to worry if somebody's mom was "hot" or not.  Gross!  Never even came up.

I can tell a story from my own LL days.  I was 9 (playing as a 10 year old), and a kid named Jack Diaz was on the team.  Now Jack wasn't a particularly good baseball player, nor a particularly memorable guy.  His mom, however, was another story.  I'm guessing she was probably 30-ish, tall, blond, tan, huge rack and wore white shorts everywhere she went.  She looked like she walked off the set of Three's Company.  Now we didn't use terms like "MILF" and "cougar" back in the day, especially when you were 10, and we weren't really sure what it was.  We just knew that Jack's mom was different than everyone else's mom.  Even as a 10 year old it was impossible not follow every move she made in the stands.  I cannot imagine what it did to the coaches or the dads.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2012, 02:30:45 pm »
All I remember about the parents was hating them all. They'd scream and yell at me the whole game, asking to see my birth certificate, shit like that, even in All-Stars. If I knew who their kid was, I'd throw behind their head because I thought I'd shut them up that way. I was a good player, but I had a lot to learn and a ton of anger issues. Those years took a lot of tread from my tires.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2012, 02:46:10 pm »
They'd scream and yell at me the whole game, asking to see my birth certificate, shit like that,

So, are you running for president soon?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2012, 02:47:18 pm »
So, are you running for president soon?

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2012, 02:48:42 pm »
I cannot imagine what it did to the coaches or the dads.

then your imagination sucks something fierce

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2012, 03:18:03 pm »
I was a product of your good ol' neighborhood little league. Settegast Park was literally one block from my house and that park was smack dab in the middle of the second ward. Every kid walked to the park to play. I knew every Mom and Dad and they knew me. I lived in the day that anyone in the neighborhood was given permission to smack me around if they saw me doing mischief. If I played badly, they were allowed to yell at me to do better and keep my head in the game. I never once had any idea to look at anyone's mother in any other way than respectful. Plus none of them were anywhere near the types that jump out of a magazine or television set.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2012, 03:48:46 pm »
My brothers and I played at Walnut Creek LL which was owned by the Optimists.  It was at the corner of Braker and North Lamar back when Braker T-boned into North Lamar.  It was two blocks from my house on Hornsby. Across Lamar was the Syline Club, home of the over 29 dance club.  Three fields were built around a stand of fine old live oaks.  We played ball there pretty much all year.  The Optimists sold Christmas trees there.  I cried when the Optimists sold it and they tore down the trees and the fields and built a Randall's.  Poetic justice that the store failed and has been empty for years.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2012, 03:51:36 pm »
My brothers and I played at Walnut Creek LL which was owned by the Optimists.  It was at the corner of Braker and North Lamar back when Braker T-boned into North Lamar.  It was two blocks from my house on Hornsby. Across Lamar was the Syline Club, home of the over 29 dance club.  Three fields were built around a stand of fine old live oaks.  We played ball there pretty much all year.  The Optimists sold Christmas trees there.  I cried when the Optimists sold it and they tore down the trees and the fields and built a Randall's.  Poetic justice that the store failed and has been empty for years.

I played at Oaks Dads' Club from 7 to 11, played at Candlelight until I was 14, and then played one Pony Season at Inwood Dads' Club.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2012, 03:54:45 pm »
My brothers and I played at Walnut Creek LL which was owned by the Optimists.  It was at the corner of Braker and North Lamar back when Braker T-boned into North Lamar.  It was two blocks from my house on Hornsby. Across Lamar was the Syline Club, home of the over 29 dance club.  Three fields were built around a stand of fine old live oaks.  We played ball there pretty much all year.  The Optimists sold Christmas trees there.  I cried when the Optimists sold it and they tore down the trees and the fields and built a Randall's.  Poetic justice that the store failed and has been empty for years.

I know that area well. While in high school I worked at the Bonanza on Research and a lot of my coworkers (and girlfriends) went to Lanier.

I played baseball and football at Bartholomew, grew up near 51st and Manor Road. There's a lot of ghosts in that complex for me.

When we moved to Pflugerville, there were no Little League teams but the nearest big town, Taylor, wanted me so I played there and when that season ended I got picked up by teams in Round Rock. Finally the high school started a team but that was another Adventure in Suck.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2012, 04:01:28 pm »
I know that area well. While in high school I worked at the Bonanza on Research and a lot of my coworkers (and girlfriends) went to Lanier.

I played baseball and football at Bartholomew, grew up near 51st and Manor Road. There's a lot of ghosts in that complex for me.

When we moved to Pflugerville, there were no Little League teams but the nearest big town, Taylor, wanted me so I played there and when that season ended I got picked up by teams in Round Rock. Finally the high school started a team but that was another Adventure in Suck.

We lived on Corona Drive, and my brother played baseball at Bartholomew.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 04:14:55 pm by JimR »
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2012, 04:02:38 pm »
I know that area well. While in high school I worked at the Bonanza on Research and a lot of my coworkers (and girlfriends) went to Lanier.

I played baseball and football at Bartholomew, grew up near 51st and Manor Road. There's a lot of ghosts in that complex for me.

When we moved to Pflugerville, there were no Little League teams but the nearest big town, Taylor, wanted me so I played there and when that season ended I got picked up by teams in Round Rock. Finally the high school started a team but that was another Adventure in Suck.

After I went to school my folks moved across Lamar and that put them in the P-ville district.  3 brothers and a sister were all Panthers.  There was one in school there pretty much from '77 to '89

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2012, 04:13:26 pm »
We lived on Corona Drive, and my brother played baseball at Batholomew.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2012, 04:23:20 pm »
We didn't have baseball where I grew up.  it was a small Amish community, and I really never saw baseball on tv until I went away to college.  We did play rounders though, at community picnics, and sometimes we raised barns.  Sometimes you would go to a barn raising and all the dads would be screaming at their kids about how worthless they were with hand planes, and how they sucked at lifting roof beams.  It was very disturbing, and I know a lot of kids like me ended up leaving the community and going into the wider world just because of how their dad's treated them during the threshing.

You've never seen dad's pushing their kids until you see two Amish dad's arguing about who's kid got out of bed first to milk the cows.  They didn't even have digital clocks, so how would they even know?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2012, 04:24:02 pm »
We didn't have baseball where I grew up.  it was a small Amish community, and I really never saw baseball on tv until I went away to college.  We did play rounders though, at community picnics, and sometimes we raised barns.  Sometimes you would go to a barn raising and all the dads would be screaming at their kids about how worthless they were with hand planes, and how they sucked at lifting roof beams.  It was very disturbing, and I know a lot of kids like me ended up leaving the community and going into the wider world just because of how their dad's treated them during the threshing.

You've never seen dad's pushing their kids until you see two Amish dad's arguing about who's kid got out of bed first to milk the cows.  They didn't even have digital clocks, so how would they even know?

dad's what?

this is hilarious, btw.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2012, 04:25:14 pm »
dad's what?

this is hilarious, btw.

We didn't have apostrophes either.  I never have learned the rules.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2012, 04:26:36 pm »
Thou haulest hay like a Shaker.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2012, 04:53:37 pm »
I think I found a picture of Neil and friends in their rumspringa season!

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2012, 04:56:41 pm »
One thing I think I remember from when I played LL, etc ... most of the kids' parents were supportive and all.  But not obsessively so.  I think my parents were typical, they came to games, but not ALL the games, let alone all the practices.  I don't remember thinking this was some act of parental dereliction on their part.  They were grown ups, they had things to do.  They came to the games when they could (which was a majority of the time); they were happy when we succeeded, and not hyper-critical when we didn't.

When my kids played, there was this idea prevalent among the parents that a "good" mom and/or dad was there for every game, every pitch. Some felt every minute of every practice, too.  One was thought to have shortcomings as a parent if one missed a single inning, much less a whole game.

I've said this before, but it was my generation - the one that had it so good growing up in the relatively free-wheeling 1960s-1970s -  and the ones who came after, who screwed everything up for kids.  I'll never understand it.

I remember at age 12, my best friend Rocky's LL team was playing mine one early evening. I was catching and Rocky - a LH hitter - was at the plate. Our pitcher was a lefty who threw a ball that moved a lot, just naturally; one of 'em came up and in on Rocky and glanced off of his cheek, splitting open the skin, like a cut on a boxer. He went face down on the plate, and there was blood everywhere.

The injury wasn't nearly as bad as it looked at first, thank goodness.  But the thing I really remember is that Rocky's mom and dad were not at the park. A couple of kids ran the two blocks or so to his house to get them.  No one thought twice about the fact they weren't in attendance at a middle of the week game of no special import.  It was a normal thing.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2012, 05:05:46 pm »
My parents missed my in-the park-error-assisted homerun.  I've never hit one again because of it.

I was always pleasantly surprised when they were able to go to a sporting event.  One of my favorite sporting memories was finishing a cross-country meet and seeing my dad and uncle at the finish line.  I didn't event think they knew we had a race that morning.  Thankfully I finished in the top 5 not sure how my cousin did.

The only time my mom made all of my softball games was when she coached the team.

My sister is close to what you described though.

Oh, and the baseball field we played at was a street over from my parents at our church.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2012, 06:51:41 am »
We didn't have baseball where I grew up.  it was a small Amish community, and I really never saw baseball on tv until I went away to college.  We did play rounders though, at community picnics, and sometimes we raised barns.  Sometimes you would go to a barn raising and all the dads would be screaming at their kids about how worthless they were with hand planes, and how they sucked at lifting roof beams.  It was very disturbing, and I know a lot of kids like me ended up leaving the community and going into the wider world just because of how their dad's treated them during the threshing.

You've never seen dad's pushing their kids until you see two Amish dad's arguing about who's kid got out of bed first to milk the cows.  They didn't even have digital clocks, so how would they even know?

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2012, 06:37:09 pm »
Kids make the high school team because they have talent, not because they played on X Select team when they were 12. Granted, it was 20 years ago but I remember my high school tryouts. I had just moved to Houston two days before the first day of tryouts. No one had ever seen me. There were probably 150 kids trying out for maybe 15 spots. Of course I made the team, displacing a kid who had played the year before. I think 99% of the "you have to play on X select team or attend showcase camps" to make the high school team is parents who refuse to accept that their kid just ain't that good.

This is absolutely spot on. Both of my sons are very good left-handed pitchers and were highly sought after by the select travelling teams, but my ex-wife and I turned them all down because of the toxic atmosphere around these teams that I experienced while serving as a pitching coach. That was probably the only thing that woman and I ever agreed upon. Go figure.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2012, 07:33:52 am »
Kids make the high school team because they have talent, not because they played on X Select team when they were 12. Granted, it was 20 years ago but I remember my high school tryouts. I had just moved to Houston two days before the first day of tryouts. No one had ever seen me. There were probably 150 kids trying out for maybe 15 spots. Of course I made the team, displacing a kid who had played the year before. I think 99% of the "you have to play on X select team or attend showcase camps" to make the high school team is parents who refuse to accept that their kid just ain't that good.


this is so true.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2012, 09:43:34 am »
We didn't have baseball where I grew up.  it was a small Amish community, and I really never saw baseball on tv until I went away to college.  We did play rounders though, at community picnics, and sometimes we raised barns.  Sometimes you would go to a barn raising and all the dads would be screaming at their kids about how worthless they were with hand planes, and how they sucked at lifting roof beams.  It was very disturbing, and I know a lot of kids like me ended up leaving the community and going into the wider world just because of how their dad's treated them during the threshing.

You've never seen dad's pushing their kids until you see two Amish dad's arguing about who's kid got out of bed first to milk the cows.  They didn't even have digital clocks, so how would they even know?


Fuck that.  Did any of the Mom's dresses ever lift up to show a flash of ankle?!!!!
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2012, 01:56:17 pm »
I have typed and deleted several responses here and have finally decided to add my two cents.   

My son this year has played on three teams:  Middle school ball, Little League and a travel team.  Not at the same time mind you.  Feb - mid April was Middle school ball.  Little league and travel do overlap.

Parents are parents in all three - some great - some horrible.  Little league parents are the most likely to have the police called to the game.  Travel ball parents are the most likely to treat their kids like mercenaries (at 12U - we are seeing teams pick up kids from other teams for tourneys - kids from other STATES!). Middle school parents are most likely to have a short term view and encourage to coach the give Johnny the ball when Johnny pitched over 80 pitches a few days ago. 

Kids are kids in all three - Their intensity is higher in travel but mostly concerned about where we going to eat after the game is over.  Middle school ball also had it's fair share of girlfriends coming to watch the games which brings a new element.

And coaches are coaches in all three - some outstanding - some adequate (I fall in this category as my son's little league coach) and some need ethics training.  Our middle school coach was teaching our kids how to cheat.  With runners at 2nd & 3rd with less than two out - he would call a squeeze bunt and have the runner at 2nd cut the corner at 3rd.  With a two ump crew - they would never be watching 3rd - so there would be no way to over turn it on appeal.  He called that play at least 6 times during the season.  It worked all but one.  That time, a heads up first baseman rifled a throw back home and the trailing runner was tagged out.  I have to say I wasn't sad the kid was out. 

All three experiences have been good for my son. 

Little league - he gets to be a star. If it weren't for all stars - he wouldn't want to play LL.
Travel ball - he gets to be challenged.  This is his favorite team.  Six of these boys are zoned for the same high school and have been playing together for several years.
Middle School - he got the chance to have to earn his spot and learn to ride the bench.  While other 1st year players were complaining to parents about playing time, he never complained - yes I am very proud of that.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2012, 01:59:13 pm »
I have typed and deleted several responses here and have finally decided to add my two cents.   

My son this year has played on three teams:  Middle school ball, Little League and a travel team.  Not at the same time mind you.  Feb - mid April was Middle school ball.  Little league and travel do overlap.

Parents are parents in all three - some great - some horrible.  Little league parents are the most likely to have the police called to the game.  Travel ball parents are the most likely to treat their kids like mercenaries (at 12U - we are seeing teams pick up kids from other teams for tourneys - kids from other STATES!). Middle school parents are most likely to have a short term view and encourage to coach the give Johnny the ball when Johnny pitched over 80 pitches a few days ago. 

Kids are kids in all three - Their intensity is higher in travel but mostly concerned about where we going to eat after the game is over.  Middle school ball also had it's fair share of girlfriends coming to watch the games which brings a new element.

And coaches are coaches in all three - some outstanding - some adequate (I fall in this category as my son's little league coach) and some need ethics training.  Our middle school coach was teaching our kids how to cheat.  With runners at 2nd & 3rd with less than two out - he would call a squeeze bunt and have the runner at 2nd cut the corner at 3rd.  With a two ump crew - they would never be watching 3rd - so there would be no way to over turn it on appeal.  He called that play at least 6 times during the season.  It worked all but one.  That time, a heads up first baseman rifled a throw back home and the trailing runner was tagged out.  I have to say I wasn't sad the kid was out. 

All three experiences have been good for my son. 

Little league - he gets to be a star. If it weren't for all stars - he wouldn't want to play LL.
Travel ball - he gets to be challenged.  This is his favorite team.  Six of these boys are zoned for the same high school and have been playing together for several years.
Middle School - he got the chance to have to earn his spot and learn to ride the bench.  While other 1st year players were complaining to parents about playing time, he never complained - yes I am very proud of that.





did you talk to the coach about cheating? if not, why not?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2012, 04:27:27 pm »
I have typed and deleted several responses here and have finally decided to add my two cents.   

My son this year has played on three teams:  Middle school ball, Little League and a travel team.  Not at the same time mind you.  Feb - mid April was Middle school ball.  Little league and travel do overlap.

Parents are parents in all three - some great - some horrible.  Little league parents are the most likely to have the police called to the game.  Travel ball parents are the most likely to treat their kids like mercenaries (at 12U - we are seeing teams pick up kids from other teams for tourneys - kids from other STATES!). Middle school parents are most likely to have a short term view and encourage to coach the give Johnny the ball when Johnny pitched over 80 pitches a few days ago. 

Kids are kids in all three - Their intensity is higher in travel but mostly concerned about where we going to eat after the game is over.  Middle school ball also had it's fair share of girlfriends coming to watch the games which brings a new element.

And coaches are coaches in all three - some outstanding - some adequate (I fall in this category as my son's little league coach) and some need ethics training.  Our middle school coach was teaching our kids how to cheat.  With runners at 2nd & 3rd with less than two out - he would call a squeeze bunt and have the runner at 2nd cut the corner at 3rd.  With a two ump crew - they would never be watching 3rd - so there would be no way to over turn it on appeal.  He called that play at least 6 times during the season.  It worked all but one.  That time, a heads up first baseman rifled a throw back home and the trailing runner was tagged out.  I have to say I wasn't sad the kid was out. 

All three experiences have been good for my son. 

Little league - he gets to be a star. If it weren't for all stars - he wouldn't want to play LL.
Travel ball - he gets to be challenged.  This is his favorite team.  Six of these boys are zoned for the same high school and have been playing together for several years.
Middle School - he got the chance to have to earn his spot and learn to ride the bench.  While other 1st year players were complaining to parents about playing time, he never complained - yes I am very proud of that.



That middle school coach should be watched very carefully. If he's teaching questionable ethics to the children, and he is, then he has no business in the classroom or in the coach's box. He'd have heard from me if he was teaching my boys to cheat, because my boys would have told me immediately, being good boy scouts and all.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2012, 09:24:58 am »
his response was "it's not cheating, it's beating the system" with a chuckle.  It - that play - apparently is a common practice among some of the high school coaches in the area. I have a close eye on this coach. Otherwise, I have found him to be a good man who has taught the kids good work ethic.  I think he just has a blind spot here.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2012, 01:53:34 pm »
his response was "it's not cheating, it's beating the system" with a chuckle.  It - that play - apparently is a common practice among some of the high school coaches in the area. I have a close eye on this coach. Otherwise, I have found him to be a good man who has taught the kids good work ethic.  I think he just has a blind spot here.


just like McGwire had a blind spot about steroids?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2012, 05:10:07 pm »
his response was "it's not cheating, it's beating the system" with a chuckle.  It - that play - apparently is a common practice among some of the high school coaches in the area. I have a close eye on this coach. Otherwise, I have found him to be a good man who has taught the kids good work ethic.  I think he just has a blind spot here.


Then I'd be watching those high school coaches too. It's one thing to teach a youth how to be aggressive. It's quite another to outwardly encourage cheating. That's what is wrong with our society today. The moral compass is off kilter and always points toward victory at all costs and through all available means.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2012, 09:26:06 am »
Then I'd be watching those high school coaches too. It's one thing to teach a youth how to be aggressive. It's quite another to outwardly encourage cheating. That's what is wrong with our society today. The moral compass is off kilter and always points toward victory at all costs and through all available means.

Just thinking back to my own HS coach...he was the most intense man I ever met.  He once pulled his own tooth out in front of us he was so mad.  He was as hard-nosed a baseball man as you could meet, and I never had any coach who wanted to win as bad as he did.  But he never instructed us, or encouraged us, to break the rules, or even "beat the system".  He was the kind of guy who would chew your ass up one end and down the other on the field and then after the game come sit beside you, put his arm around you and ask how your family was, were you keeping your grades up, etc.  I didn't especially like playing for him, but I respected his respect for the game and his desire to win.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2012, 09:45:47 am »
"beat the system" is bullshit. he was cheating and teaching his players to cheat. no good man does that.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2012, 10:03:46 am »
That's what is wrong with our society today. The moral compass is off kilter and always points toward victory at all costs and through all available means.

When has this never been the case in society?

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2012, 10:46:33 am »
"beat the system" is bullshit. he was cheating and teaching his players to cheat. no good man does that.

Agree 1000%
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2012, 03:11:33 pm »
"beat the system" is bullshit. he was cheating and teaching his players to cheat. no good man does that.

Jim, didn't you throw a spitball?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2012, 03:19:05 pm »
Jim, didn't you throw a spitball?

in HS, occasionally yes. Whitey Ford taught me how in Life Magazine. i never taught it to my players, though.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2012, 04:52:20 pm »
in HS, occasionally yes. Whitey Ford taught me how in Life Magazine. i never taught it to my players, though.

I think you're right about adults teaching kids to cut corners:  it's not a good life lesson.  Baseball does have a bit of a tradition of questionable acts, from not volunteering to the umpire what you may actually know happened to a tolerance of hitting a batter in certain situations.  I bet there's some college philosophy professor who's written a pretty good article on the morality of spitballs.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2012, 05:15:10 pm »
I think you're right about adults teaching kids to cut corners:  it's not a good life lesson.  Baseball does have a bit of a tradition of questionable acts, from not volunteering to the umpire what you may actually know happened to a tolerance of hitting a batter in certain situations.  I bet there's some college philosophy professor who's written a pretty good article on the morality of spitballs.

my issue was teaching kids to cheat.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2012, 06:43:30 pm »
my issue was teaching kids to cheat.

Mine too.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2012, 06:47:31 pm »
Jim, didn't you throw a spitball?

I occasionally scuffed a ball or put a little vaseline or glove balm on it from inside of my glove, but I never taught a single young man how to do this or that it was okay to do as long as you got away with it. I have lots of personal shortcomings, and you people know most of them. But I'm not a cheater and don't condone it at all.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2012, 09:03:33 pm »
I occasionally scuffed a ball or put a little vaseline or glove balm on it from inside of my glove, but I never taught a single young man how to do this or that it was okay to do as long as you got away with it. I have lots of personal shortcomings, and you people know most of them. But I'm not a cheater and don't condone it at all.

I cheated, but I'm not a cheater.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2012, 09:18:03 pm »
I cheated, but I'm not a cheater.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2012, 09:19:54 pm »
Thank you, John Edwards.

That's "I cheated but I'm not a criminal", aka the Clinton defense.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2012, 01:10:43 am »
I cheated, but I'm not a cheater.

When I played I was the catcher mostly. I was not blessed with the prototypical catcher's build unlike, say, Hudson. I became the catcher on my first kid-pitch team, 8 years old, the Owls, because I was literally one of the two kids on the team who could throw and catch. Our one and only win that season came against the Aggies, satisfyingly enough.

I remained the catcher on later teams with more to choose from in terms of kids who could catch mainly because I was too stupid to demand a move to a more sheltered position such as second base. I was a born second baseman. But I am also a born contrarian.

Anyway, when I was eleven or twelve I began the practice of vigorously kicking dirt over home plate when it seemed that there might be a play at the plate or at least a runner possibly heading to the plate. The umpire's attention would invariably be elsewhere and I would quickly cover the plate with dirt. I realized that if some fucker was rounding third and looking for home and couldn't see it that might cost him a crucial step. Also, if there was a play at the plate and the umpire couldn't actually see the plate how the hell could he call the runner safe?

Many times I would hear an ump muttering to himself as he swept the plate after the play or after no play at all, How the hell did all this dirt get on the plate???

No one coached me to do this. It just occurred to me and I started doing it.

I think that there is a clear difference between a player's attempting to get an edge on his own and his being taught to cheat by a coach. I was never, ever taught to cheat and would not have responded if I had been. And I played for some serious psychopaths, some guys who were legendary in Houston youth baseball for being lunatics. And lunatics they were, but they never taught us to cheat.

I think players understand that if a pitcher is smart enough to get away with the occasional scuff or spit or whatever then good for them. I sincerely miss watching Gaylord Perry pitch, knowing that every time he touched the bill of his cap or his back pocket or stepped off the mound or really did anything at all he was fucking with the batter's mind. That's not cheating; it's artistry.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2012, 07:15:24 am »
So would you teach a catcher how to frame a pitch to deceive the umpire?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2012, 08:01:18 am »
So would you teach a catcher how to frame a pitch to deceive the umpire?


Or not to touch 2nd when turning DP

Or not to get out of the way of a pitch?

Or to hold up a ball that short hopped in the OF?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2012, 08:48:12 am »
So would you teach a catcher how to frame a pitch to deceive the umpire?


Neil, you have to be fucking kidding me. deceive? it is the umpire's judgment no matter what the catcher does. i taught my catchers to try to receive each pitch in towards their bodies without snatching at it and pulling it in. catch high pitches down, low pitches up, and wide pitches in. that is to give the pitcher the best chance to get a strike call on a close pitch. deceive? come on.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2012, 08:50:36 am »
Or not to touch 2nd when turning DP

Or not to get out of the way of a pitch?

Or to hold up a ball that short hopped in the OF?

never

turn shoulder in on inside pitch to protect the head/face. never told them to get hit deliberately. the pain is theirs, not mine, and they made the decision when the ball wass coming at them.

never

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2012, 09:53:19 am »
Anyway, when I was eleven or twelve I began the practice of vigorously kicking dirt over home plate when it seemed that there might be a play at the plate or at least a runner possibly heading to the plate. The umpire's attention would invariably be elsewhere and I would quickly cover the plate with dirt. I realized that if some fucker was rounding third and looking for home and couldn't see it that might cost him a crucial step. Also, if there was a play at the plate and the umpire couldn't actually see the plate how the hell could he call the runner safe?

Many times I would hear an ump muttering to himself as he swept the plate after the play or after no play at all, How the hell did all this dirt get on the plate???

No one coached me to do this. It just occurred to me and I started doing it.

One reason you were never coached this is because it's not smart baseball. In little league there may be some advantage do to the timidity and inexperience of the runner, but getting higher up , it's not good for numerous reasons.

On a side note, you were a sneaky little bastard.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2012, 10:30:42 am »
Ever been called a cheater during an actual game? That is one sure fire way to start a fight in my book. Baseball is played by a certain set of rules and then what you both (opponent and yourself) perceive to be the best way to work within those rules. But to be blatant about cheating is not a good way to play the game.

Not cheating
Close play at home, runner and ball are arriving at home around the same time. Catcher gets the ball, does a swipe tag on the runner who slides away from the plate. Catcher knows he has only one chance to make the play because if he doesn't the runner will touch home plate with his hand after he avoids the initial tag.  So the catcher misses the tag, but it's close. Catcher jumps up immediately after the swipe and shows the ball to the umpire who yells "OUT!" and the inning is over and the run does not score. Runner jumps up angry knowing the tag was not applied and his manager runs out into the field too and both go after the... catcher?  No. The umpire who is supposed to be in the right position to make a call. They will get angry not at the catcher because he did his job within the confines of the rules... try to apply the tag. The operative word is try, the rest is up to the umpire to decide.

Cheating
Batter is in the box and you, as a catcher, notice right before each pitch, he looks back to you to try to steal the sign and where you're setting up (inside or outside). The guy has had three hits this day, all solid contact, all lead to runs. You catch his "cheating" and call time out to go talk to your pitcher. First thing you say to your pitcher is.... "Next pitch dots him on the back... got it?" Your pitcher complies and as the guy gets ready to walk over to first base, you tell him "Next time we won't be so kind if you keep trying to cheat us". If he gets in your face, get ready to fight back... stand your ground and throw down if you must, but cheating cannot be tolerated on the field. Not as long as you can have a say in the matter.

I was involved in both of these situations as a catcher. And anyone who plays the game knows when one is a matter of playing within the confines of the rules and one is blatantly about taking an unfair advantage. BTW - the problem with cheating is that you basically are saying you cannot beat the other guy so you have to resort to deceit and treachery. Really? Is that what you want to say about yourself... that you cannot hang or compete on the field? That you suck, so you cheat?  I can't believe that anyone who steps on the field wants to say that about themselves.


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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2012, 10:38:20 am »
Cheating
Batter is in the box and you, as a catcher, notice right before each pitch, he looks back to you to try to steal the sign and where you're setting up (inside or outside). The guy has had three hits this day, all solid contact, all lead to runs. You catch his "cheating" and call time out to go talk to your pitcher. First thing you say to your pitcher is.... "Next pitch dots him on the back... got it?" Your pitcher complies and as the guy gets ready to walk over to first base, you tell him "Next time we won't be so kind if you keep trying to cheat us". If he gets in your face, get ready to fight back... stand your ground and throw down if you must, but cheating cannot be tolerated on the field. Not as long as you can have a say in the matter.


I've never told a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter, but I used to tell my pitchers "if I give you the old' Number One with my middle finger, that means the hitter is looking back at the sign. I'll leave it up to you".  The hitter who was peaking typically got the message. Nowadays I'll just tell the hitter "dude...do you mind?"
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2012, 10:58:37 am »
I've never told a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter, but I used to tell my pitchers "if I give you the old' Number One with my middle finger, that means the hitter is looking back at the sign. I'll leave it up to you".  The hitter who was peaking typically got the message. Nowadays I'll just tell the hitter "dude...do you mind?"

I did. In fact, if I told the pitcher the guy was looking back, they may go for the head, so I always thought it best to control the retribution if you will. Point is, if you're caught cheating *during* a game... I mean you purposely are trying to take an unfair advantage... you shouldn't be surprised at being either ridiculed (like A-Rod yelling "HA") or even dotted.

The biggest thing is never teach kids to cheat, they're going to learn how to cheat later by peers who have no boundaries. It is better for you as an adult to teach how to play the game right and let them then figure out that cheating isn't very pleasant... at least not in baseball.  Best way to get yourself ostracized by the brotherhood. The same guy I almost had a throw down with that day several years later tried out for the team I was playing on. We didn't get along and I was a bit taken aback by his attitude about how he played the game. I was glad when they cut him during the season because the guy running the team couldn't stand him after awhile. Loud mouth blowhard cheater is all I can remember him by, and that's too bad, he probably was a nice guy but we never knew about it.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 11:02:42 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2012, 08:19:14 am »
I cheated, but I'm not a cheater.

Okay. You got me, Biz. I cheated, but I didn't teach cheating. Like I said before, I'm not pristine.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2012, 12:53:00 pm »

I remained the catcher on later teams with more to choose from in terms of kids who could catch mainly because I was too stupid to demand a move to a more sheltered position such as second base. I was a born second baseman. But I am also a born contrarian.


My first couple of seasons I caught merely because my coach thought it would be cool to have a catcher named Bench.  Then I demanded the move to second base.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2012, 01:23:26 pm »
My first couple of seasons I caught merely because my coach thought it would be cool to have a catcher named Bench.  Then I demanded the move to second base.

Didn't Bench also play 3B late in his career? I don't know why I seem to remember that, but I do.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2012, 10:34:21 am »
What about teaching kids ways to spot cheating and how to prevent the other team of taking advantage? Don't tell them to cheat, but tell them to watch and see if the runner cuts inside 3rd and never touches the bag.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2012, 12:30:18 pm »
What about teaching kids ways to spot cheating and how to prevent the other team of taking advantage? Don't tell them to cheat, but tell them to watch and see if the runner cuts inside 3rd and never touches the bag.

Absolutely. That's just good heady baseball.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2012, 01:12:35 pm »
What about teaching kids ways to spot cheating and how to prevent the other team of taking advantage? Don't tell them to cheat, but tell them to watch and see if the runner cuts inside 3rd and never touches the bag.

The whole jist of the play, though, is the lack of umpires watching the bag.  Does not matter if your guy sees the runner miss the bag if blue don't, right?  I never heard of such practice in the first place, so I could be way the hell off...

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2012, 05:31:54 pm »
What about teaching kids ways to spot cheating and how to prevent the other team of taking advantage? Don't tell them to cheat, but tell them to watch and see if the runner cuts inside 3rd and never touches the bag.

that is standard coaching.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2012, 09:49:22 am »
I cheated, but I'm not a cheater.

It's interesting how some people use being right to justify being a prick...
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2012, 09:52:43 am »
It's interesting how some people use being right to justify being a prick...

Why do I need to justify it
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2012, 10:36:18 am »
Why do I need to justify it

Old habit for you, I'm sure, but I think he was referring to Mr. Happy.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2012, 10:52:07 am »
Old habit for you, I'm sure, but I think he was referring to Mr. Happy.

uh... no.  Happy is who Happy is...
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2012, 11:03:32 am »
uh... no.  Happy is who Happy is...

Gotcha.  BD is a prick.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2012, 10:22:06 am »
The whole jist of the play, though, is the lack of umpires watching the bag.  Does not matter if your guy sees the runner miss the bag if blue don't, right?  I never heard of such practice in the first place, so I could be way the hell off...

You got it - one umpire saw the corner cut and later said he thought about calling the runner out for leaving the baseline.  Another ump said - call that if you want but you probably wont call anymore games for that team. 

Eventually - because the coach does it so much and other parents talking about it after the game - the other coaches and the umps will be aware of it and start watching it. I believe he will start getting caught very soon.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2012, 01:51:17 pm »
You got it - one umpire saw the corner cut and later said he thought about calling the runner out for leaving the baseline.  Another ump said - call that if you want but you probably wont call anymore games for that team. 

Eventually - because the coach does it so much and other parents talking about it after the game - the other coaches and the umps will be aware of it and start watching it. I believe he will start getting caught very soon.

Isn't that a play the other team would properly need to react to by sending the ball back to third?  Do umpires call it if there's no action by the other team?
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2012, 02:57:50 pm »
Isn't that a play the other team would properly need to react to by sending the ball back to third?  Do umpires call it if there's no action by the other team?

No.  This would have to be an appeal play.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2012, 03:51:33 pm »
No.  This would have to be an appeal play.

That's what I thought.
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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2012, 06:27:15 pm »
Gotcha.  BD is a prick.

But I'm a prick too!!! Biz just nailed me on something over which I was vulnerable. I didn't take offense and quickly apologized for the misstep. I did cheat from time to time. While I never got caught (and I only did it when my arm was really hurting-almost always in denial league play), it doesn't matter. I'm not pristine and cheated. You all know me. I'll take my lumps like a man.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

BizidyDizidy

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2012, 06:52:38 am »
I just like fucking with you Hap, nothing personal
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Andyzipp

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2012, 08:06:14 am »
I just like fucking with you Hap, nothing personal

Could you guys let the rest of us know when this California Sissy Slap Fight is over?

HudsonHawk

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2012, 11:06:15 am »
Could you guys let the rest of us know when this California Sissy Slap Fight is over?

Or at least one of you punch the other in the junk. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #120 on: June 08, 2012, 11:07:16 am »
Or at least one of you punch the other in the junk. 

what junk?
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Duman

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2012, 11:36:31 am »
Last night my little league had to forfeit due to vacations in two families and a death in a third.  The other team had plenty of kids and we decided to just play a for fun game.  The kids chose up sides and we played four innings.  One of the coaches called balls & strikes and two coaches filled in the extra outfield spots.  I think it was the most fun those kids had had this year.  It is amazing how fun baseball can be when the adults aren't screwing it up.

Always ready to go to a game.

Noe

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2012, 11:51:43 am »
Last night my little league had to forfeit due to vacations in two families and a death in a third.  The other team had plenty of kids and we decided to just play a for fun game.  The kids chose up sides and we played four innings.  One of the coaches called balls & strikes and two coaches filled in the extra outfield spots.  I think it was the most fun those kids had had this year.  It is amazing how fun baseball can be when the adults aren't screwing it up.

One year, after the Y-Ball season was over, I called all the parents and asked them to meet me at the field the following Saturday for one final game. "One more game? Really?" they asked. "Yup, be there... please" says I. They all showed up but there was no other team to play. "What's up?" asks the parents. "Well, grab your gloves and hit the field, it's a parents versus kids game!". I have never seen more parents and kids have that much fun on the field. The kids got to coach themselves, set their own lineups. cheer for each other. The Dads and Moms just had fun trying to chase down the balls and in some cases even throw a kid or two out. We even faked a mound charge (we told a Dad to charge at his own son and give him a huge hug... it was nice!).

Then my wife showed up with the ice cream and cake to finish off the hour. Great time!

Mr. Happy

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Re: I went to see a fight and a little league game broke out!
« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2012, 04:45:41 pm »
what junk?

You got that right, Coach. And now I'm so old that mine doesn't always work without a little medicine!
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius