Infield triple?

[MusicMan]

Infield triple.

[JackAstro]

Amazing. Good thing the catcher went back to the plate after backing up first...

[Lurch]

Holy fuck that is awesome.  How is that scored?

[EasTexAstro]

Holy fuck that is awesome.  How is that scored?

I would think a triple. There were no errors made, no fielder's choice, just players out of position.

[Lurch]

mlb.com has it as a single and I guess he just advanced to third?  No triple in the box score either

"Brendan Ryan singles on a ground ball to shortstop Eric Sogard. Brendan Ryan to 3rd."

[Limey]

mlb.com has it as a single and I guess he just advanced to third?  No triple in the box score either

"Brendan Ryan singles on a ground ball to shortstop Eric Sogard. Brendan Ryan to 3rd."

Is Mr Happy writing MLB's PBP now?

[MusicMan]

I would think a triple. There were no errors made, no fielder's choice, just players out of position.

Fielder's indifference choice error failure.

[JaneDoe]

Holy fuck that is awesome. 

Yes it is.

[MRaup]

Fielder's indifference choice error failure.

Prince Fielder is big, but blaming him for this is outright ridiculous!

[Noe]

Prince Fielder is big, but blaming him for this is outright ridiculous!

Man cast a big shadow... that's it... he caused a blackout for the A's infielders.

[MusicMan]

Prince Fielder is big, but blaming him for this is outright ridiculous!

As long as he keeps beating the Jakes, I won't blame him for anything.

[MusicMan]

Man cast a big shadow... that's it... he caused a blackout for the A's infielders.

Blackout?

THAT'S RACIST!

[EasTexAstro]

OK, question: Say there is a team of Pences out there, and there coach tells them to overload one side of the field on a pull hitter, and the hitter goes the other way and makes 3rd before anyone can GET THE BALL, GET THE BALL, GET THE BALL, BRING IT IN, BRING IT IN, BRING IT IN.....

That wouldn't be a triple? That seems to be what happened here is that everyone lost their mind on defense, and the runner didn't.

[Astroholic]

OK, question: Say there is a team of Pences out there, and there coach tells them to overload one side of the field on a pull hitter

we would all die as the earth would tilt off of its axis.

[MRaup]

OK, question: Say there is a team of Pences out there, and there coach tells them to overload one side of the field on a pull hitter, and the hitter goes the other way and makes 3rd before anyone can GET THE BALL, GET THE BALL, GET THE BALL, BRING IT IN, BRING IT IN, BRING IT IN.....

That wouldn't be a triple? That seems to be what happened here is that everyone lost their mind on defense, and the runner didn't.

That's a little different than the ball being in a player's glove less than 10 feet from you as you take off for 2nd.

[Mr. Happy]

Is Mr Happy writing MLB's PBP now?

This brightened up my day. Thanks.

[MRaup]

Blackout?

THAT'S RACIST!

By the by... This almost caused me to die laughing.

[Astroholic]

we would all die as the earth would tilt off of its axis.

oh you said pences not Princes.  nevermind.

[EasTexAstro]

That's a little different than the ball being in a player's glove less than 10 feet from you as you take off for 2nd.

Yes, but....

I watched it, but it is hard to tell exactly where everthing went wrong on defense, besides the thing about everything going wrong on defense.

The SS goes into the hole, throws off balance, and follows through into LF. The first baseman is pulled off on a throw, and doesn't have a chance of running him down from behind. The 2nd baseman seems to head towards 1st in case of an errant throw. The 3rd baseman seems to head to 2nd after it is too late, so he is out of play for the run to 3rd. The LF was probably backing up the SS, but never moved in behind, like the SS, to cover 3rd.

They all seemed to be trying to do something they thought was smart, but it put them in the exact wrong position for any play.

In a rel world, the pitcher could have covered 3rd, theCF could have headed to 2nd when it was vacated, the LF could have headed to 3rd, and the SS should have been headed back to 2nd after the throw.

Maybe that is not valid, but it is the kind of thing I did in beer league softball, so I hold that to be law.

I'm just saying, they didn't do anything wrong, but they did everything wrong. I could give the guy a triple and never think twice.

[austro]

Did the guy score after all that?

[MRaup]

And I'd have no problem saying a guy stole second even if there's no throw and nobody on the field cares, but there still is an idiotic rule called fielder's indifference.

[EasTexAstro]

And I'd have no problem saying a guy stole second even if there's no throw and nobody on the field cares, but there still is an idiotic rule called fielder's indifference.

This doesn't seem to be indifference, though. They just were not in the position to make a play. That doesn't count as an error or indifference, but inattention to detail?

I still call a triple just because the defense was absolutely Penceish.

[Lurch]

"The second baseman oftentimes is backing up first, so if you can get past the first and second basemen, you've got second base open," Ryan said. "So, I looked for it and it looked like nobody saw me, so I took off for second. Then I got to second and it looked like the closest person to third was right next to me, so I figured if I could get past him I've got third."


I like this guy

[Reuben]

I am definitely gonna have to try that in one of my softball games tomorrow.

[MusicMan]

I like this guy

Damned good stuff for a former Jake.

[Houston]

And I'd have no problem saying a guy stole second even if there's no throw and nobody on the field cares, but there still is an idiotic rule called fielder's indifference.

I agree it should be ruled as two stolen bases because nothing else seems to explain it. It wasn't fielder's indifference because they were racing him to the bases.

They can't even rule that he advanced on a throw to another base because there was no throw.

Awesome base running!

[pots]

I am definitely gonna have to try that in one of my softball games tomorrow.

Doesn't work in softball.  The ump calls time after the single if you run through first and the ball is secured.  You'd have to round first, in which case everybody is going to know something is up right away.

[Navin R Johnson]

The A's are like 20 games out of it and their infielders are too cool/lazy/stupid to do something as simple as cover a bag.  Guess that is one of the reasons they suck.

[BizidyDizidy]

The A's are like 20 games out of it and their infielders are too cool/lazy/stupid to do something as simple as cover a bag.  Guess that is one of the reasons they suck.

Moneyball!

[chuck]

"Then I got to second and it looked like the closest person to third was right next to me, so I figured if I could get past him I've got third."

I don't really know how to describe my reaction to this quotation other than to say that it fills me with great joy.

[JackAstro]

I agree it should be ruled as two stolen bases because nothing else seems to explain it. It wasn't fielder's indifference because they were racing him to the bases.

They can't even rule that he advanced on a throw to another base because there was no throw.

Awesome base running!

Can't be a steal unless the ball was dead at some point, right? And you can't have indifference without a steal attempt, can you? There has to be some kind of scoring designation for those two bases, but if it's not a triple or an error, I'm not sure what else it could be...

[JaneDoe]

Can't be a steal unless the ball was dead at some point, right? And you can't have indifference without a steal attempt, can you? There has to be some kind of scoring designation for those two bases, but if it's not a triple or an error, I'm not sure what else it could be...

Advancing on the throw?  I know it is not to another base, but that is all I can figure.

[JackAstro]

Advancing on the throw?  I know it is not to another base, but that is all I can figure.

Maybe? I guess we could just check the fucking box score, but who has that kind of time? Clearly not us.

ETA: Apparently every possibility is wrong in some way.

[EasTexAstro]

Maybe? I guess we could just check the fucking box score, but who has that kind of time? Clearly not us.

The official ruling was a single with the runner advancing to 3rd on a fielder's choice.

I guess the choice was to not do anything.

[JackAstro]

The official ruling was a single with the runner advancing to 3rd on a fielder's choice.

I guess the choice was to not do anything.

That actually makes sense, now that I read it:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

FIELDER'S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).

[EasTexAstro]

That actually makes sense, now that I read it:
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/definition_terms_2.jsp

Was it undefended steal, or did they try to cover the base after he moved forward? I actually would have agreed with a single and two steals.

[MRaup]

Was it undefended steal, or did they try to cover the base after he moved forward? I actually would have agreed with a single and two steals.

A stolen base can't happen because of a hit.

[EasTexAstro]

A stolen base can't happen because of a hit.

10.07: The official scorer shall credit a stolen base to a runner whenever the runner advances one base unaided by a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk....

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I guess the choice was to not do anything.

According to Geddy Lee Neal Pert, if you choose not to decide do anything you still have made a choice.

[Lurch]

According to Geddy Lee Neal Pert, if you choose not to decide do anything you still have made a choice.

Neil Peart, damnit.

[MusicMan]

Neil Peart, damnit.

Depends on whether you're looking for the singer or the writer.

[MRaup]

ETA:

He got to first due to a hit, though. You can't steal a base while the ball is still in play.

[EasTexAstro]

ETA:

He got to first due to a hit, though. You can't steal a base while the ball is still in play.

I'll take that.

It still seems to me that there were no errors, no indifference, no fielder's choice, it was just the way the play unfolded, the position players all ended up out of position, even though they could have been in position had they paid attention.

I don't have an answer, though. I think it is an interesting scoring question, but I'm betting the hitter has thought less about this than I have.

[sporadic]

ETA:

He got to first due to a hit, though. You can't steal a base while the ball is still in play.

I know this might be splitting hairs, but the ball is in play (or it is put in play during the SB attempt) when a base is being stolen, right?   Or is it that a SB must occur after the ball is declared dead?  If an error was not charged, I think a valid argument could be made the bases were stolen...as the extra bases were the result of crafty baserunning rather than how the ball was put into play.

Not trying to agitate, I don't really know the rules all that well.  Seems like a bit of a loophole, unless it is clearly stated in the rules that a SB must come after a dead ball.  If that is the case, then it seems this play should be ruled a triple, as nothing else really fits.

[Waldo]

I know this might be splitting hairs, but the ball is in play (or it is put in play during the SB attempt) when a base is being stolen, right?   Or is it that a SB must occur after the ball is declared dead?  If an error was not charged, I think a valid argument could be made the bases were stolen...as the extra bases were the result of crafty baserunning rather than how the ball was put into play.

Not trying to agitate, I don't really know the rules all that well.  Seems like a bit of a loophole, unless it is clearly stated in the rules that a SB must come after a dead ball.  If that is the case, then it seems this play should be ruled a triple, as nothing else really fits.

I believe he means that the umpires had not yet ruled the play over, meaning that the ball was still in play because of the original hit, and according to the rule ETA posted you cannot be awarded a stolen base on a hit.

Perhaps the better way to think about it is, you can't be awarded a stolen base on a batted ball.

[Limey]

Depends on whether you're looking for the singer or the writer.

Peart's a singer, he sings songs
For the lost and the lonely

[Limey]

It still seems to me that there were no errors, no indifference, no fielder's choice, it was just the way the play unfolded, the position players all ended up out of position, even though they could have been in position had they paid attention.

So...at the end of the day...it's an "infield triple".  Which is where this thread started.

[austro]

So...at the end of the day...it's an "infield triple".  Which is where this thread started.

And that's really what I want to see on the write-up: "Ryan triples to SS." Some day somebody is going to come across that and try to understand what it means.

[Lurch]

So...at the end of the day...it's an "infield triple".  Which is where this thread started.

Except that it's still officially a single.

[Reuben]

Doesn't work in softball.  The ump calls time after the single if you run through first and the ball is secured.  You'd have to round first, in which case everybody is going to know something is up right away.

Well, I did try. Singled to LF and went to 2B when the throw in trickled away from the SS. Didn't feel nearly as cool though.

[JackAstro]

I'll take that.

It still seems to me that there were no errors, no indifference, no fielder's choice, it was just the way the play unfolded, the position players all ended up out of position, even though they could have been in position had they paid attention.

I don't have an answer, though. I think it is an interesting scoring question, but I'm betting the hitter has thought less about this than I have.

Except I do think fielder's choice more or less fits:

to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference

He advanced while they had the ball in the infield, but no one made any attempt to throw him out. If they had thrown to third and he was safe, I think you'd have to score it a triple. But with no attempt at a put out, I can see the scorer ruling that he advanced on defensive indifference. (I could also see calling it a triple, but I think either is justifiable.)

Definitley an interesting scoring question, and we absolutely have thought about this more than Ryan has.

[HudsonHawk]

A little late here, but when I get time, I will try to make some sense of this. I'll share, if I do.

[Limey]

Except I do think fielder's choice more or less fits:

He advanced while they had the ball in the infield, but no one made any attempt to throw him out. If they had thrown to third and he was safe, I think you'd have to score it a triple. But with no attempt at a put out, I can see the scorer ruling that he advanced on defensive indifference. (I could also see calling it a triple, but I think either is justifiable.)

Definitley an interesting scoring question, and we absolutely have thought about this more than Ryan has.

So, if Lee tries to make a play off first base, the pitcher fails to cover and so when Altuve picks up the ball there's no one to throw to at 1B.  That's a hit every time - but one the above scheme, it's FC.

FC doesn't work here as the only reason there were no throws at 2B and 3B because no one was there.

[HudsonHawk]

Neil Peart, damnit.

It probably be easier for people to spell if they didn't consistently mispronounce it.

[HudsonHawk]

Ok, after having finally watched the video, the correct scoring is obvios:  a single and steals of 2b and 3b. It was in no way shape or form a three base hit.

[Waldo]

Ok, after having finally watched the video, the correct scoring is obvios:  a single and steals of 2b and 3b. It was in no way shape or form a three base hit.

The rules say that a SB can't be aided by a hit.  Would your ruling be that the play (and the hit) were "over" as soon as he reached first?

[MusicMan]

Ok, after having finally watched the video, the correct scoring is obvios:  a single and steals of 2b and 3b. It was in no way shape or form a three base hit.

The correct scoring is obvious.  The rest of us are just stupid.

Welcome back, HH.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

It probably be easier for people to spell if they didn't consistently mispronounce it.

Do you factor in how he pronounces his own name?

[HudsonHawk]

The rules say that a SB can't be aided by a hit.  Would your ruling be that the play (and the hit) were "over" as soon as he reached first?

Play doesn't "end" unless a ball is thrown out of play or a pitched ball is batted foul. The batter reached first on the hit. He stopped at first then took off for second when he realized no one was covering the bag. Same thing again going to third. The value of base hits is determined by several things,  not just where the runner ends up by the time the next pitch is thrown. I think it's clear that the batted ball itself and "ordinary effort" warrant a single. The bases after that were not due to the location of the batted ball.

[HudsonHawk]

The correct scoring is obvious.  The rest of us are just stupid.

Welcome back, HH.

Well that didn't take long.

[HudsonHawk]

Do you factor in how he pronounces his own name?

Should I factor in anything else?

[Limey]

Well that didn't take long.

TWSS

[HudsonHawk]

TWSS

What does that mean?

[Limey]

Play doesn't "end" unless a ball is thrown out of play or a pitched ball is batted foul. The batter reached first on the hit. He stopped at first then took off for second when he realized no one was covering the bag. Same thing again going to third. The value of base hits is determined by several things,  not just where the runner ends up by the time the next pitch is thrown. I think it's clear that the batted ball itself and "ordinary effort" warrant a single. The bases after that were not due to the location of the batted ball.

Actually, the location of the batted ball had everything to do with that play.  He took the extra 2 bases because the location of the ball had pulled the infield so out of position that the bases weren't covered.

[Ron Brand]

What does that mean?

That's what she said.

[HudsonHawk]

Actually, the location of the batted ball had everything to do with that play.  He took the extra 2 bases because the location of the ball had pulled the infield so out of position that the bases weren't covered.

The bases were uncovered because the fielders were lollygaggying, not because none of them could physically outrun the batter to the bag.

[Lurch]

The correct scoring is obvious.  The rest of us are just stupid.

Someone should tell the official scorer.

[JackAstro]

So, if Lee tries to make a play off first base, the pitcher fails to cover and so when Altuve picks up the ball there's no one to throw to at 1B.  That's a hit every time - but one the above scheme, it's FC.

FC doesn't work here as the only reason there were no throws at 2B and 3B because no one was there.

No, in both cases it's at least single... the question is the scoring on the clusterfuckery subsequent to the hit, which is a little out of the realm of an ordinary infield hit, right? I mean, he took two extra bases and there was no attempt to throw him out. We know why there was no throw, but it still fits the definition of indifference, doesn't it? No fielders bothering to cover and no one making an attempt on the runner seems pretty indifferent.

Of course, there are problems with that ruling, too – I don't think any scoring of this play can be 100% satisfactory, because you can find language in the rulebook that supports or calls into question every possibility.

[Bench]

Play doesn't "end" unless a ball is thrown out of play or a pitched ball is batted foul.

So what happens when an umpire calls "time" at the end of a play?  You know, something that happens after nearly every play.

[Limey]

The bases were uncovered because the fielders were lollygaggying, not because none of them could physically outrun the batter to the bag.

But when Derek Bell missed a fly ball because he was fucking asleep in RF, they called it a hit, or double, or triple...

[sporadic]

But when Derek Bell missed a fly ball because he was fucking asleep in RF, they called it a hit, or double, or triple...

Yes, but once he got to the ball there was somebody to throw the ball to.  Different situation here, IMO.

[ValpoCory]

Ok, after having finally watched the video, the correct scoring is obvios:  a single and steals of 2b and 3b.  

Should Larry Walker's similar move in the 9th inning of Game 4 of the 2005 NLCS been ruled a stolen base?  It was not ruled that way:

L. Walker    ... Single to RF (Ground Ball); Pujols to 3B
R. Sanders    ... Fielder's Choice 3B; Pujols out at Hm/3B-C; Walker to 3B

[ValpoCory]

Yes, but once he got to the ball there was somebody to throw the ball to.  Different situation here, IMO.

You're assuming Operation Shutdown actually went after the ball.

[HudsonHawk]

So what happens when an umpire calls "time" at the end of a play?  You know, something that happens after nearly every play.

Umpires don't call time after every play.

[Bench]

Umpires don't call time after every play.

It seems like they do after every play which leaves a runner on base. 

[HudsonHawk]

Should Larry Walker's similar move in the 9th inning of Game 4 of the 2005 NLCS been ruled a stolen base?  It was not ruled that way:

I don't recall the particulars of that play.

[Bench]

I don't recall the particulars of that play.

There was much confusion regarding whether or not time was called.  The Astros were wandering around getting ready for the next batter, and Walker just took off for third as everyone blankly looked at him.

Fortunately, John Mabry is a slow slow man and Bruntlett and Everett have quick quick hands, so it ended up not mattering at all. 

[HudsonHawk]

It seems like they do after every play which leaves a runner on base. 

They do, but not when runners are still advancing.  They also then immediately put the ball back in play. My point is, the ball is not "dead" until the next pitch, like it is in softball.

[chuck]

There was much confusion regarding whether or not time was called.  The Astros were wandering around getting ready for the next batter, and Walker just took off for third as everyone blankly looked at him.

I'll never forget Lidge's comment when asked about the play, a comment that was framed by the Jakes' bitching about some call or some non-call or some shit, whiny bitches that they are. Lidge said, 'The call was safe so we just went with it.'

[Bench]

I'll never forget Lidge's comment when asked about the play, a comment that was framed by the Jakes' bitching about some call or some non-call or some shit, whiny bitches that they are. Lidge said, 'The call was safe so we just went with it.'

And that the double play, of course, was FUCKING HUGE.

[chuck]

And that the double play, of course, was FUCKING HUGE.

The look of confused dismay on the face of that little weasel Lucas was awesome.

[austro]

The look of confused dismay on the face of that little weasel Lucas was awesome.

Weasel?

[chuck]

Weasel?

You don't think he has a voice like a weasel?

[austro]

You don't think he has a voice like a weasel?

I've never spoken with a weasel, so I can't say. I mistook it as a comment about his character, and I've never heard any stories that would lead to that characterization, so I was confused.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I for one am glad weasels can not actually speak in English, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

[Andyzipp]

I for one am glad weasels can not actually speak in English, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

I know at least one who can.  He is a pain in the ass.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I know at least one who can.  He is a pain in the ass.

Where is that weasel?

[ValpoCory]

I don't recall the particulars of that play.

http://www.astrosdaily.com/video/2005nlcsgm4.mpg

[JackAstro]

http://www.astrosdaily.com/video/2005nlcsgm4.mpg

Just finished watching the turn about two dozen times. I should probably get back to work.

[MusicMan]

Just finished watching the turn about two dozen times. I should probably get back to work.

The beauty of the play makes up for the horror of linking to AD.

[chuck]

Pujols' running a foot inside the baseline still pisses me off.

[geezerdonk]

Ausmus tagged him high. I am surprised that there wasn't some major whining about the call.

[roadrunner]

Wow, I'm not trying to pimp another Astros site, but the AD historic media page is fucking awesome. 

[Limey]

Pujols' running a foot inside the baseline still pisses me off.

FIFY

[Limey]

Ausmus tagged him high. I am surprised that there wasn't some major whining about the call.

Everytime I watch that sequence, I think that both Pooholes and Mabry are safe.

[chuck]

Everytime I watch that sequence, I think that both Pooholes and Mabry are safe.

You know what? Just today is the first time watching the double play that I am certain that Mabry was out.

[Waldo]

The beauty of the play makes up for the horror of linking to AD.

The same clip is still available on the MLB.com archives.

[ValpoCory]

Wow, I'm not trying to pimp another Astros site, but the AD historic media page is fucking awesome. 

It's the only reason to go to that site.    I can blow a couple hours over there easy.

[Navin R Johnson]

It's the only reason to go to that site.    I can blow a couple hours over there easy.

I can't believe the MLB Fun police haven't shut it down yet.