Author Topic: Egypt (Read 5196 times)

Lurch · « **on:** February 11, 2011, 11:16:27 am »

Truly an amazing revolution, started on Facebook of all places. I've been watching from home all morning and seeing the tears of joy and hearing people for the first time in their lives having their voices heard, really makes you really appreciate what we have.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2011, 11:36:47 am »

Quote from: Lurch on February 11, 2011, 11:16:27 am

Truly an amazing revolution, started on Facebook of all places. I've been watching from home all morning and seeing the tears of joy and hearing people for the first time in their lives having their voices heard, really makes you really appreciate what we have.

I just hope we aren't watching a replay of Iran circa 1978.

Lurch · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:56:20 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on February 11, 2011, 11:36:47 am

I just hope we aren't watching a replay of Iran circa 1978.

We're not. The people are so much more informed and aware. It is facinating listening to them speak. They're picking random people out of the crowds to get reactions, and it's amazing how intellegent (and articulate in English!) many of them are, clearly stating what their expectations were and now are. One of them said "We're going to build a democracy you will be proud of". Should be very interesting to see what they come up with.

Lurch · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:59:24 pm »

The Facebook account that set 80 million free... Amazing

Guinness · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:07:11 pm »

I wonder if this (and Tunisia and the others) is a case of the Average Arab looking at how despotic their rulers are, how many of their clerics wish to return to the 12th century, and how the crazies make them look overseas and deciding enough is enough...It would be great if this was a "Berlin Wall" moment.

Greg M · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:19:41 pm »

As one who grew up in Cairo, I'm a truly proud of my friends and every other Egyptian who stood up for his/her rights.

This is not Iran. Egypt is a secular country and the average Egyptian is very hospitable and welcoming.

Amazing day!

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:37:41 pm »

Quote from: Greg M on February 11, 2011, 01:19:41 pm

This is not Iran. Egypt is a secular country...

So was Iran in 1979. The Islamic theocrats didn't start the revolution, they were just the only ones with enough organization to pick up the pieces after it happened. Egypt has a long way to go. I hope they do well.

BUWebguy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:42:11 pm »

I admit with some embarrassment that I don't really understand what started all this or the background or anything else about what's been going on in Egypt. Can anyone recommend a good article/link that can bring me up to speed?

Lurch · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:49:56 pm »

Quote from: BUWebguy on February 11, 2011, 01:42:11 pm

I admit with some embarrassment that I don't really understand what started all this or the background or anything else about what's been going on in Egypt. Can anyone recommend a good article/link that can bring me up to speed?

CNN did a pretty good job of it here

The back story is that some young Egyptians created a facebook account in anger over the death of another by two Egyptian police. Generally, prior to this, no one in Egypt was willing to speak out against the government because the police were so threatening and those that did often disappeared. That page became a primary location to publish grievances about the dictatorship and it blew up quickly to the point that they would post a story and 50,000 others would repost it on their facebook sites. Imagine how many eyes they were getting. They called for a rally on Jan 25 and it simply never ended. What was particularly interesting was the failed attempt by Mubarak to blame outsiders for the rally, and that only served to undermine him even more. Even members of the state media started defecting. The US-trained and supported Egyptian army also did their part by being clear that they were not going to stop the rally. It was just a matter of time once that became clear

AtascAstro · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:54:57 pm »

Quote from: BUWebguy on February 11, 2011, 01:42:11 pm

I admit with some embarrassment that I don't really understand what started all this or the background or anything else about what's been going on in Egypt. Can anyone recommend a good article/link that can bring me up to speed?

Here is the background story from the FB page linked by Lurch (warning - bottom of the page has a very real picture of the murdered Khaled Said).

http://www.elshaheeed.co.uk/home-khaled-said-full-story-background-truth-what-happened-torture-in-egypt-by-egyptian-police/

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:40:52 pm »

Quote from: Greg M on February 11, 2011, 01:19:41 pm

As one who grew up in Cairo, I'm a truly proud of my friends and every other Egyptian who stood up for his/her rights.

This is not Iran. Egypt is a secular country and the average Egyptian is very hospitable and welcoming.

Amazing day!

Yes it is an amazing day. I sincerely hope that you're correct about this not being another Iran. But I am concerned about the middle east's understanding of true democracy. For example, will women be allowed to vote?

MusicMan · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:45:25 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on February 11, 2011, 02:40:52 pm

Yes it is an amazing day. I sincerely hope that you're correct about this not being another Iran. But I am concerned about the middle east's understanding of true democracy. For example, will women be allowed to vote?

Let's not throw stones. The world's foremost democracy took 150 years to get that one straightened out.

S.P. Rodriguez · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:56:06 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Happy on February 11, 2011, 02:40:52 pm

Yes it is an amazing day. I sincerely hope that you're correct about this not being another Iran. But I am concerned about the middle east's understanding of true democracy. For example, will women be allowed to vote?

Not to be a wise ass, but Egypt is in N. Africa. While that may seem like nitpicking, I'm pretty sure that also means that they are not predominantly Arab. Obviously, I could be wrong.

eta: I realize they speak arabic. I'm looking at ethnic origin.

Guinness · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:04:41 pm »

Quote from: S.P. Rodriguez on February 11, 2011, 02:56:06 pm

Not to be a wise ass, but Egypt is in N. Africa. While that may seem like nitpicking, I'm pretty sure that also means that they are not predominantly Arab. Obviously, I could be wrong.

eta: I realize they speak arabic. I'm looking at ethnic origin.

Iranians are also not Arabs.

MusicMan · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:07:25 pm »

Quote from: PeteM on February 11, 2011, 03:04:41 pm

Iranians are also not Arabs.

And they will flat out stone your ass for implying that they are.

S.P. Rodriguez · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:09:09 pm »

Quote from: PeteM on February 11, 2011, 03:04:41 pm

Iranians are also not Arabs.

An excellent point... and considering the "secular" Iranian society that existed before the fall of the Shah, probably a better analogy than I originally thought. I'm no expert, just enjoying the moment in history. And admittedly a tad bit nervous, even if no one believes Egypt has WMDs.

subnuclear · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:27:30 pm »

Egypt's official name is the "Arab Republic of Egypt." I think its ok to include them in the broad definition of "Arab" as much as that term is useful.

S.P. Rodriguez · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:44:06 pm »

Quote from: subnuclear on February 11, 2011, 03:27:30 pm

Egypt's official name is the "Arab Republic of Egypt." I think its ok to include them in the broad definition of "Arab" as much as that term is useful.

Again, not trying to nit-pick and accepting the fact that I am not communicating my point very well. I am well aware of their affiliation with the Arab world, in so far as Hosni Mubarak, as well as his predecessor Anwar Sadat, expressed ties to the Arab world. That wasn't my question. At this point, I'm not sure if my question has any value. But the simplest way I can put it is, with the middle east dominated by tribal and ethnic loyalties, I'm curious as to how that will factor into the change in Egypt, if at all?

Bench · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:44:26 pm »

Quote from: S.P. Rodriguez on February 11, 2011, 03:09:09 pm

... even if no one believes Egypt has WMDs.

I wouldn't sweat it. If they do it would be because we gave them to them.

Guinness · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:49:02 pm »

Quote from: Bench on February 11, 2011, 03:44:26 pm

I wouldn't sweat it. If they do it would be because we gave them to them.

yeah, we did that with the guy we "deposed" too.

Greg M · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2011, 03:59:05 pm »

I couldn't imagine an Egypt without women having a vote. Many, especially in the lower classes, I'd imagine will vote like their husbands.

It's said that Coptics are the closest in ethnic origin to ancient Egyptians. Egypt has been conquered so many times that it's hard to label them as 'Arab'. I remember having a beer with some friends and getting in a drunken ruckus with an Egyptian friend who has utterly offended and very defensive when I referred to Egyptians as Arabs.

subnuclear · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2011, 04:04:14 pm »

Quote from: S.P. Rodriguez on February 11, 2011, 03:44:06 pm

But the simplest way I can put it is, with the middle east dominated by tribal and ethnic loyalties, I'm curious as to how that will factor into the change in Egypt, if at all?

I don't think its Iraq with its many tribal and ethnic and religious divisions. More like Iran, I think, in terms of being dominated by the majority ethnic group.

Lurch · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2011, 04:10:10 pm »

Iran is going to have to go on full Internet lock-down like China to survive much longer. The ball almost started rolling in 2009 after the "elections" but the protesters were eventually beaten into silence. I'd bet there are a good number more of them ready to give it another shot.

ETA: new WSJ article on just that

MusicMan · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2011, 04:39:14 pm »

Quote from: Lurch on February 11, 2011, 04:10:10 pm

Iran is going to have to go on full Internet lock-down like China to survive much longer. The ball almost started rolling in 2009 after the "elections" but the protesters were eventually beaten into silence. I'd bet there are a good number more of them ready to give it another shot.

And the absolute best thing we can do when this happens:

Stay the fuck out of the way.

Iranians want the Ayatollahs gone, but they're much more concerned about outside interference.

S.P. Rodriguez · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2011, 04:42:26 pm »

Quote from: MusicMan on February 11, 2011, 04:39:14 pm

And the absolute best thing we can do when this happens:

Stay the fuck out of the way.

Iranians want the Ayatollahs gone, but they're much more concerned about outside interference.

Where in the world did you get the idea we, The USofA, don't interfere?

Lurch · « **Reply #25 on:** February 11, 2011, 04:47:13 pm »

Quote from: MusicMan on February 11, 2011, 04:39:14 pm

And the absolute best thing we can do when this happens:

Stay the fuck out of the way.

Iranians want the Ayatollahs gone, but they're much more concerned about outside interference.

I don't know, I think they want our help. I think the Egyptians wanted our help, and we now look like stooges for not stepping up sooner. From Ghonim's Twitter today: "Dear Western Governments, You've been silent for 30 years supporting the regime that was oppressing us. Please don't get involved now" Ouch.

That said, you're right, we should probably stay our of the way at least to avoid discreting the movement as a US plot.

chuck · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2011, 08:10:59 pm »

Late to the party, but yes, Egyptians are Arabs. As Greg M points out there are surely a few (Copts or who knows what) that will claim (accurately, for all I know) not to be Arab, but the great majority of Egyptians are Arabs. In fact, Gamel Abdel Nasser, the second president of Egypt, was a (if not THE) prime force behind pan-Arab nationalism.

And I can tell you most assuredly that the inhabitants of the Maghreb nations extending west from Egypt - Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco, certainly consider themselves Arab.