Author Topic: Paulino to Rockies  (Read 12900 times)

astrosfan76

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Paulino to Rockies
« on: November 18, 2010, 12:32:24 pm »
Footer tweets that Wade sent Felipe to the Rockies for Clint Barmes. 

Quote
Wade: "We're excited to add Clint to our club. He's a plus defensive player at two positions, has gap and some home run power and has great makeup. It's tough to give up a power arm like Felipe's, but Clint fits a need that we had to address."

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2010, 12:38:33 pm »
Oh. 
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 12:42:49 pm »
I like it.
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astrosfan76

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2010, 12:43:13 pm »
Splits over the past 3 seasons:

'10-Home:  178 AB  .236/.327/.348 4 doubles 4 HR
Away:  209 AB  .234/.285/.354 13 doubles 4 HR

'09-Home:  279 AB  .283/.336/.498 19 doubles 13 HR
Away:  271 AB  .207/.251/.380 13 doubles 10 HR

'08-Home:  200 AB  .330/.362/.570 14 doubles 8 HR
Away:  193 AB  .249/.281/.363 11 doubles 3 HR

BudGirl

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 12:43:21 pm »
I thought he only traded with the Phillies?
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 12:44:02 pm »
I'd ask if he has a ranch, but I'd be too worried that he'd go hunting on it and trip again.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 12:44:11 pm »
If he's a good defender it makes sense.  Maybe they are thinking of signing a pitcher FA?

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 12:45:01 pm »
I liked it until I saw the splits. Jeez.
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astrosfan76

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 12:48:52 pm »
If he's a good defender it makes sense.  Maybe they are thinking of signing a pitcher FA?

Wade thinks he's a good defender.  I was thinking the same thing about pitching.  They could always trade for a starter, but they have reportedly shown interest in a couple of FA starters, like Jeff Francis.  Either way, I imagine they'll get someone unless they're comfortable with Lyles or Figueroa as the 5th starter.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 12:49:29 pm »
I see it as a matter of cutting their losses on Paulino, who has had a penchant for injury. I thought that Wade could have done better than Barmes for Paulino with some pitching starved team who fell in love with Paulino's admittedly plus stuff, but I guess not.
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astrosfan76

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 12:50:38 pm »
I thought he only traded with the Phillies?

He had good luck last time he brought in a Rockie.  

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 12:58:21 pm »
He had good luck last time he brought in a Rockie.  
uh... Jennings?
Matsui?
was Arias a Rockie?

So, does this mean Kepp is not going to be a starter anymore? Is his defense at 2B really that bad? He seems like a better hitter than Barmes. Or does Barmes displace Manzella/Sanchez?
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 12:58:59 pm »
With Wade, this seems like the first domino.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 12:59:55 pm »
uh... Jennings?
Matsui?
was Arias a Rockie?

So, does this mean Kepp is not going to be a starter anymore? Is his defense at 2B really that bad? He seems like a better hitter than Barmes. Or does Barmes displace Manzella/Sanchez?

I thought Pup brought in Jennings.

I was thinking his comment was a bit sarcastic.
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astrosfan76

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2010, 01:02:48 pm »
uh... Jennings?
Matsui?
was Arias a Rockie?

So, does this mean Kepp is not going to be a starter anymore? Is his defense at 2B really that bad? He seems like a better hitter than Barmes. Or does Barmes displace Manzella/Sanchez?

Chacon choke, I mean joke.  

More Footer tweets:

Quote
Barmes, who turns 32 in March, gives Astros another option at 2 infield positions where they're looking to upgrade.  This doesn't mean Manzella and Keppinger are not in the mix. Playing time will sort itself out next year.

Sounds like he's the favorite to get one of the spots, but not a lock for 500 AB.

astrosfan76

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 01:05:08 pm »
With Wade, this seems like the first domino.

I would agree.  Maybe not today, but I doubt this is his only significant move this off-season.

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Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2010, 01:07:09 pm »
In Ed We Trust
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2010, 01:09:00 pm »
I know very little about Barmes, but it would've been nice to see Paulino stick around for at least one more season.

His health has obviously been a huge problem (along with any game involving the SF Giants), but it seems a little premature to cut bait on a 27 year-old with that much potential just to get a mid-grade utility player who was probably gonna be non-tendered.

The move makes more sense if Wade intends to sign a reliable back-end starting pitcher, but Paulino still might've been a solid bullpen contributor even if that is the strategy.

pots

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2010, 01:12:27 pm »
It solves the question of what to do with Paulino next year. 

JimR

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2010, 01:13:01 pm »
an Astros GM could trade for Mantle in his prime and this board would bitch and moan.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 01:13:42 pm »
Barmes would still be at SS if not for Tulowitzki.  Barmes was no slouch at SS.  At the very least, they have their super-utility guy.  

 Paulino looks like a top tier closer in the making, if he stays healthy enough for even that role.  That is a big IF, however.  We have no idea what other issues there were, or if middle infield is viewed as a bigger problem than a simple question mark.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 01:17:30 pm »
an Astros GM could trade for Mantle in his prime and this board would bitch and moan.

Mantle was a bum.  We should have gotten Tulowitzki, straight up, for Paulino.  Any real GM could have gotten that done. 
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pots

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 01:23:56 pm »
I liked it until I saw the splits. Jeez.


Then this will make you happy:
2008-2010 @Minute Maid:  36 AB  .306/.342/.556  4 doubles, 1 triple, HR

Houston

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 01:28:44 pm »
an Astros GM could trade for Mantle in his prime and this board would bitch and moan.
We have Mantle. We just like to call him "Thunder Pants."
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2010, 01:32:37 pm »

Then this will make you happy:
2008-2010 @Minute Maid:  36 AB  .306/.342/.556  4 doubles, 1 triple, HR


If only the 2008 and 2009 astros pitching staffs pitched against the Astros at MMPUS.

pots

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2010, 01:32:47 pm »
I liked it until I saw the splits. Jeez.

Or these: (2008-2010)
Busch Stadium 18 AB  .500/.550/.722
Busch Stadium II 22 AB .500/.542/.727  

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2010, 01:39:22 pm »
Something tells me that Barmes just made Manzella stand up and notice (especially after being dropped in the Winter Leagues because of poor hitting).

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2010, 01:40:07 pm »
Or these: (2008-2010)
Busch Stadium 18 AB  .500/.550/.722
Busch Stadium II 22 AB .500/.542/.727  

Maybe we're going to now flip Barmes to the Cards for Pujols and Wainright.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

JimR

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2010, 01:41:26 pm »
no Belisle in this deal? oh, wait--he's a FA.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2010, 01:42:55 pm »
Something tells me that Barmes just made Manzella stand up and notice (especially after being dropped in the Winter Leagues because of poor hitting).
Wade decided to do this instead of sticking the head of Tommy's favorite horse in bed with him.
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JimR

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2010, 01:43:44 pm »
I know very little about Barmes, but it would've been nice to see Paulino stick around for at least one more season.

His health has obviously been a huge problem (along with any game involving the SF Giants), but it seems a little premature to cut bait on a 27 year-old with that much potential just to get a mid-grade utility player who was probably gonna be non-tendered.

The move makes more sense if Wade intends to sign a reliable back-end starting pitcher, but Paulino still might've been a solid bullpen contributor even if that is the strategy.


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Ron Brand

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2010, 01:52:50 pm »
We have Mantle. We just like to call him "Thunder Pants."

Mid-70s Mantle, maybe.
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pots

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2010, 01:54:51 pm »
but Paulino still might've been a solid bullpen contributor
Don't need another right handed reliever.  Plus Paulino has not faired well out of the bullpen so far. 

ValpoCory

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2010, 02:29:12 pm »
Barmes made $3.325M in 2010.    Any guesses on how much will he get this time in arbitration?

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2010, 02:34:39 pm »
MLBTR predicts $4MM.

Quote
Barmes was a non-tender candidate heading into his final season of arbitration eligibility. After hitting 23 homers in 2009, he hit just 8 homers this year and his batting line fell to .235/.305/.351. Barmes earned $3.33MM in 2010 and figures to pocket $4MM or so in 2011.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/astros-rockies-swap-paulino-barmes.html


ValpoCory

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2010, 02:40:35 pm »
MLBTR predicts $4MM.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/astros-rockies-swap-paulino-barmes.html



So this plus-defender is a middle infield version of Pedro Feliz?  It seems almost every year since the World Series, the Astros have had on their roster some $4-5 million per year infielder, and every time it is a clusterfuck.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 02:44:26 pm by ValpoCory »

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2010, 02:42:25 pm »
So this plus-defender is a middle infield version of Pedro Feliz?  It seems almost every year since the World Series, the Astros add some $4-5 million per year infielder, and every time it is a clusterfuck.

see what i mean? bitch, piss and moan.
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dirty steve

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2010, 02:47:15 pm »
With Wade, this seems like the first domino.
i though the same thing, too.  the valverde trade with arizona came a couple of days after the tejada trade, IIRC. 

i'd like to see if there are any takers for Lee's remaining deal, but that seems remote at best. 

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2010, 03:02:38 pm »
an Astros GM could trade for Mantle in his prime and this board would bitch and moan.

Why the hell are we trading for a guy with a bum knee and off-the-field problems?
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2010, 03:06:57 pm »
Why the hell are we trading for a guy with a bum knee and off-the-field problems?

Well, if he'd just settle down and hit from the left side all of the time I might be ok with it.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2010, 03:08:03 pm »
i though the same thing, too.  the valverde trade with arizona came a couple of days after the tejada trade, IIRC. 

i'd like to see if there are any takers for Lee's remaining deal, but that seems remote at best. 

As much as I dislike Lee's play in LF, I don't see anyone on this roster than provides the offense he can provide.  That said, I think we will see Lee at 1B far more than LF, if they can find a solid left handed bat to platoon with Michaels.  
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2010, 03:50:31 pm »
Maybe we're going to now flip Barmes to the Cards for Pujols and Wainright.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2010, 04:20:22 pm »
From Levine:

Quote
"Millsie thinks that he's more than capable of playing shortstop every day, and he's a plus defender at second," Wade said. "Where that all plays out depends on what else we do during the offseason and it could depend on what guys do at spring training.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2010, 04:59:32 pm »
Double Jeff Keppingers across the sky!
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strosrays

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2010, 05:04:48 pm »
We have Mantle. We just like to call him "Thunder Pants."

Okay.  I realize it's about the same as pissing down a black hole in a solar storm, but . . . nominated.

dirty steve

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2010, 05:14:21 pm »
As much as I dislike Lee's play in LF, I don't see anyone on this roster than provides the offense he can provide.  That said, I think we will see Lee at 1B far more than LF, if they can find a solid left handed bat to platoon with Michaels.  
so what about wallace?  not saying he is the second coming of 5, but he seems like he doesn't need to be in AAA anymore.  if you knew you were planning on going with the 1B platoon with lee, why did you make wallace a centerpiece of the oswalt trade if he won't see regular at bats until 2013 (if lee plays the balance of this contract with the astros).

i know there is more to offense than home runs and runs batted in, but pence hit more and drove in more of both than lee last year while striking out about 50 more times.  his batting average was 36 points higher even with those strikeouts.  at this point in their careers, i think they are similar players performance wise.  both are 25/90 offensively and below average in the field.  i don't see lee's bat as being completely irreplaceable, especially with continued development of johnson, castro and wallace and whoever would replace lee in the outfield.  
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 05:21:29 pm by dirty steve »

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2010, 07:16:57 pm »
Why the hell are we trading for a guy with a bum knee and off-the-field problems?

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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2010, 07:06:39 am »
so what about wallace?  not saying he is the second coming of 5, but he seems like he doesn't need to be in AAA anymore.  if you knew you were planning on going with the 1B platoon with lee, why did you make wallace a centerpiece of the oswalt trade if he won't see regular at bats until 2013 (if lee plays the balance of this contract with the astros).

i know there is more to offense than home runs and runs batted in, but pence hit more and drove in more of both than lee last year while striking out about 50 more times.  his batting average was 36 points higher even with those strikeouts.  at this point in their careers, i think they are similar players performance wise.  both are 25/90 offensively and below average in the field.  i don't see lee's bat as being completely irreplaceable, especially with continued development of johnson, castro and wallace and whoever would replace lee in the outfield.  

Wallace is 23 and under club control.  I know it's unfair, tragic, and mean.  However, it happens all the time in MLB.  Great prospects are blocked by MLB Vets routinely.  As to what happens to Wallace, I have no idea.  He could spend his time in OKC, or they could use him in a future trade.  There's no added burden because of who else was involved in that trade.  The only burden is to put a winning team on the field, period. 

As for your other statement, it's simply a bad idea to leave the success of your offense on the bats of 3 second year players.  Some will regress, some will improve.  Betting on all three coming through on the plus side, highly unlikely.   
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2010, 10:37:42 am »
an Astros GM could trade for Mantle in his prime and this board would bitch and moan.

Because Mantle in his prime and Barmes aren't that far apart.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2010, 10:52:48 am »
So, does this mean Kepp is not going to be a starter anymore? Is his defense at 2B really that bad? He seems like a better hitter than Barmes. Or does Barmes displace Manzella/Sanchez?

What they need is a middle infielder who can hit righties.

            ----vs. Left----   ---vs. Right----
Player       Avg   OBP   Slg    Avg   OBP   Slg
Barmes      .275  .329  .503   .248  .296  .391
Keppinger   .327  .382  .459   .249  .307  .339
Manzella    .296  .342  .352   .198  .263  .256
Sanchez     .284  .321  .311   .274  .309  .358


(Three-year splits)

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2010, 10:57:27 am »
What they need is a middle infielder who can hit righties.

            ----vs. Left----   ---vs. Right----
Player       Avg   OBP   Slg    Avg   OBP   Slg
Barmes      .275  .329  .503   .248  .296  .391
Keppinger   .327  .382  .459   .249  .307  .339
Manzella    .296  .342  .352   .198  .263  .256
Sanchez     .284  .321  .311   .274  .309  .358


(Three-year splits)

YOu know, if you want to play that game, look at Barmes when he plays SS.  For whatever reason, he hits better when playing SS.  You can blame it on sample size yada yada yada... but given the options the Astros actually have, versus what we wish they had or think they should have, Barmes is a nice combo of Manzella's defense and Sanchez' hitting.  To me, that screams UPGRADE!
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2010, 10:58:14 am »
What they need is a middle infielder who can hit righties.

            ----vs. Left----   ---vs. Right----
Player       Avg   OBP   Slg    Avg   OBP   Slg
Barmes      .275  .329  .503   .248  .296  .391
Keppinger   .327  .382  .459   .249  .307  .339
Manzella    .296  .342  .352   .198  .263  .256
Sanchez     .284  .321  .311   .274  .309  .358


(Three-year splits)

Sanchez can hit righties; he just chooses not to.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2010, 11:05:00 am »
YOu know, if you want to play that game, look at Barmes when he plays SS.  For whatever reason, he hits better when playing SS.  You can blame it on sample size yada yada yada... but given the options the Astros actually have, versus what we wish they had or think they should have, Barmes is a nice combo of Manzella's defense and Sanchez' hitting.  To me, that screams UPGRADE!

Want to play that game?

The difference being that batters do bat right- or left-handed against pitchers who are right- or left-handed. Nobody bats while standing out in the shortstop position.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2010, 11:42:53 am »
Want to play that game?

The difference being that batters do bat right- or left-handed against pitchers who are right- or left-handed. Nobody bats while standing out in the shortstop position.

I'm not intending to get snippy over this.  I'm just pointing out that the splits by position are available and indicate significant difference in performance.  I have no idea how you can make any judgements or form an opinion on that, without going further.  As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter until you see how THIS Astros lineup is constructed and watch how well Barmes executes the roll/situation he is in.

eta: well this a poorly written response... so I corrected it.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2010, 11:53:44 am »
Just so I follow this correctly, when we say "hit's righties", we're talking about the art of putting a bat on a ball and making contact somewhere, somehow against a right handed pitcher (starter or reliever).... correct?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 12:15:22 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2010, 01:54:58 pm »
Just so I follow this correctly, when we say "hit's righties", we're talking about the art of putting a bat on a ball and making contact somewhere, somehow against a right handed pitcher (starter or reliever).... correct?

I LOL'd.

Still scratching my head at this move though, a live young arm for another backup infielder?
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2010, 01:58:38 pm »
I would insist he changes the m to n and become Barnes.  Milo will call him that all year anyway.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2010, 01:59:40 pm »
I LOL'd.

Still scratching my head at this move though, a live young arm for another backup infielder?

A live young arm that gets injured every year.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2010, 02:01:47 pm »
I LOL'd.

Still scratching my head at this move though, a live young arm for another backup infielder?

a young live arm who hardly ever is available for one reason or another. i was ready for him to move on.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2010, 02:02:16 pm »
Double Jeff Keppingers across the sky!

but what does it mean??
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2010, 02:02:50 pm »
a young live arm who hardly ever is available for one reason or another. i was ready for him to move on.

indeed.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2010, 02:19:58 pm »
a young live arm who hardly ever is available for one reason or another. i was ready for him to move on.

I wouldn't go that far.  But he was definitely trade bait.  And I really don't see what all the griping is about.  Barmes is a ball player from what I have seen. 
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2010, 03:09:22 pm »
I wouldn't go that far.  But he was definitely trade bait.  And I really don't see what all the griping is about.  Barmes is a ball player from what I have seen. 
So, you (and others) are ready to give up on Manzella? The Astros have told Barmes he will mostly play SS... from my understanding, nobody here is arguing that Barmes is a great hitter. His best asset is his defense, but I get the impression (maybe I'm mistaken) that while he is a much better 2B than Keppinger, he's not as good as Manzella at SS. So, while I don't hate the trade, I'm having trouble understanding it. It seems like the Astros are going with an older, more expensive SS who can't field as good but hits more HRs. And, he'll be a FA after one year.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2010, 03:17:47 pm »
So, you (and others) are ready to give up on Manzella? The Astros have told Barmes he will mostly play SS... from my understanding, nobody here is arguing that Barmes is a great hitter. His best asset is his defense, but I get the impression (maybe I'm mistaken) that while he is a much better 2B than Keppinger, he's not as good as Manzella at SS. So, while I don't hate the trade, I'm having trouble understanding it. It seems like the Astros are going with an older, more expensive SS who can't field as good but hits more HRs. And, he'll be a FA after one year.

I have no idea where you read that Barmes is not as good as Manzella, defensively.  I have not watched him regularly, but I have watched him play SS.  And he was better than Sanchez and I'd say as good as Manzella.  I'm no expert, obviously, so take that with a grain of salt. 

However, as far as Manzella, his "high noon" was last year as well.  His last year in AAA, the org had to do the same thing to light a fire under his ass.  Something tells me that the Astros taking this effort is a good confirmation that every possible effort was taken to let Manzella earn the job and he didn't.  I am reading into it but, to me, this trade is a clear indication they are not willing to go into ST with Manzella and Sanchez as the only two options.  That's as much of an indictment against a player as you will get.  Will Manzella ride the pine?  No clue.  But there is now experienced SS on the roster who poses a very serious challenge to both Manzella and Sanchez's playing time. 
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2010, 03:26:02 pm »
Always try to see the other side's gripes. "wow, we traded something for more than likely a perennial DL candidate. I don't get it.".

My only recollection of Barmes was one game at Coors this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't an upgrade at short for the club. Every year of Paulino (in my memory at least) is marked by the DL. The trade certainly is understandable.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2010, 03:28:19 pm »
I am reading into it but, to me, this trade is a clear indication they are not willing to go into ST with Manzella and Sanchez as the only two options.  That's as much of an indictment against a player as you will get.  Will Manzella ride the pine?  No clue.  But there is now experienced SS on the roster who poses a very serious challenge to both Manzella and Sanchez's playing time. 

This is what I took from it as well. It is an upgrade to what they'll have to make their decisions on next season.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2010, 03:28:24 pm »
I have no idea where you read that Barmes is not as good as Manzella, defensively.  I have not watched him regularly, but I have watched him play SS.  And he was better than Sanchez and I'd say as good as Manzella.  I'm no expert, obviously, so take that with a grain of salt. 

However, as far as Manzella, his "high noon" was last year as well.  His last year in AAA, the org had to do the same thing to light a fire under his ass.  Something tells me that the Astros taking this effort is a good confirmation that every possible effort was taken to let Manzella earn the job and he didn't.  I am reading into it but, to me, this trade is a clear indication they are not willing to go into ST with Manzella and Sanchez as the only two options.  That's as much of an indictment against a player as you will get.  Will Manzella ride the pine?  No clue.  But there is now experienced SS on the roster who poses a very serious challenge to both Manzella and Sanchez's playing time. 

Manzella hasn't impressed me (because he needs to!) but I hope that Sanchez sticks with the club.  He is an all around better option than Manzella.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2010, 03:34:11 pm »
Manzella hasn't impressed me (because he needs to!) but I hope that Sanchez sticks with the club.  He is an all around better option than Manzella.

Agreed... of the Keppinger, Barmes, Sanchez, and Manzella candidaetes, I like the mix with Sanchez.   I was a Manzella fan going into the year.  He was just a disappointment to me.  And I don't mean at the plate.  Reports that he was anywhere near to Adam Everett, defensively, were way off base.  He was solid, no doubt, but that was not a good comparison.  Sanchez reminds me of Vizcaino. 

Btw, back to the splits discussion, Barmes has done a pretty solid job filling in that 7 spot in the Rockies lineup, over the last few years.  He does even better in the 2.  Imagine having someone like Bourn in front of him.  Or, having the ability to leave Keppinger in the 2-spot, where he too does a fine job, instead of needing to move him down for the simple fact he was the most consistent hitter last year. 
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2010, 03:34:39 pm »
Manzella hasn't impressed me (because he needs to!) but I hope that Sanchez sticks with the club.  He is an all around better option than Manzella doesn't always drink beer.  But when he does, he drinks Dos Equiis.

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2010, 03:36:17 pm »
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2010, 03:45:04 pm »
Agreed... of the Keppinger, Barmes, Sanchez, and Manzella candidaetes, I like the mix with Sanchez.   I was a Manzella fan going into the year.  He was just a disappointment to me.  And I don't mean at the plate.  Reports that he was anywhere near to Adam Everett, defensively, were way off base.  He was solid, no doubt, but that was not a good comparison.  Sanchez reminds me of Vizcaino. 

I thought it took Manzella some time to get untracked, but by mid-season he was clearly superior in the field and was hitting a little better before he was hurt. Sanchez had a hot start but everything I read referenced a management belief that he was obviously inferior at short, both from a range and an arm standpoint. That would make the Vizcaino comparison apt, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to go into a season with Viz as my starting shortstop.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2010, 03:54:33 pm »
I thought it took Manzella some time to get untracked, but by mid-season he was clearly superior in the field and was hitting a little better before he was hurt. Sanchez had a hot start but everything I read referenced a management belief that he was obviously inferior at short, both from a range and an arm standpoint. That would make the Vizcaino comparison apt, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to go into a season with Viz as my starting shortstop.

No, but he sure did a hell of a job over a short period.  Between that and giving some really solid PH at-bats, I would love to see a Viz type bench player on the Astros. 

As for Manzella, he had moments where he looked like he was going to hit just enough to stay in the lineup.  Whatever the reason, health or ability, I just don't think the Astros see him as their answer at SS.  What bothered me was earlier in the season when he was really struggling at the plate, he seemed to carry that into the field.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2010, 04:07:12 pm »
As for Manzella, he had moments where he looked like he was going to hit just enough to stay in the lineup.  Whatever the reason, health or ability, I just don't think the Astros see him as their answer at SS.  What bothered me was earlier in the season when he was really struggling at the plate, he seemed to carry that into the field.

I think the Barmes pickup definitely reinforces that they aren't sold on Manzella, at least not right now.

He did have a rough early part of the season but seemed to get his head on straight after some time. I hope he pulls through and does well, but I'd be happy if Barmes hit .290 with 30 home runs, too.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2010, 04:13:02 pm »
And, he'll be a FA after one year.

Personally i think this could be a good thing....the fact that Barmes will be playing for the Stros in a contract year
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2010, 04:13:48 pm »
Btw, back to the splits discussion, Barmes has done a pretty solid job filling in that 7 spot in the Rockies lineup, over the last few years.  He does even better in the 2.  Imagine having someone like Bourn in front of him.  Or, having the ability to leave Keppinger in the 2-spot, where he too does a fine job, instead of needing to move him down for the simple fact he was the most consistent hitter last year. 

*DING, DING, DING*

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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2010, 05:36:16 pm »
I have no idea where you read that Barmes is not as good as Manzella, defensively.  I have not watched him regularly, but I have watched him play SS.  And he was better than Sanchez and I'd say as good as Manzella.  I'm no expert, obviously, so take that with a grain of salt. 

However, as far as Manzella, his "high noon" was last year as well.  His last year in AAA, the org had to do the same thing to light a fire under his ass.  Something tells me that the Astros taking this effort is a good confirmation that every possible effort was taken to let Manzella earn the job and he didn't.  I am reading into it but, to me, this trade is a clear indication they are not willing to go into ST with Manzella and Sanchez as the only two options.  That's as much of an indictment against a player as you will get.  Will Manzella ride the pine?  No clue.  But there is now experienced SS on the roster who poses a very serious challenge to both Manzella and Sanchez's playing time. 
I didn't read a direct comparison between Manzella and Barmes anywhere- its just the impression I got, mainly from:

1. the way Astros brass have praised Manzella's defense, consistently

2. Mills told Wade (paraphrasing here) he thought Barmes could play SS every day, but that he is a plus defender at 2B.

But admittedly, that is fairly vague info to go on. I haven't seen Barmes play SS myself (not that my judgement would matter at all).

When did Astros brass say that 2010 was Manzella's "high noon"? Don't forget he was injured for a good part of the year, and, as Ron Brand pointed out, played better after he came back. I'm not saying he's Adam Everett, or even that I'm convinced he's a MLB starter. It just seems sort of strange to give up on him now, when they are committed to a youth movement.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2010, 05:23:41 am »
a young live arm who hardly ever is available for one reason or another. i was ready for him to move on.

... and one whose arm does not seem as suited to the bullpen as his stuff.  He seems to get hurt more quickly with more frequent use rather than benefiting from fewer innings.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2010, 10:46:11 am »
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2010, 01:48:28 pm »
what far?

I wasn't ready for him to leave, not that it matters.  I was concerned they would be selling low.  Some may argue that the Astros did sell low on Paulino.  I think the Astros got a great deal in exchange for an unknown or questionable talent.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2010, 08:53:11 pm »
I wasn't ready for him to leave, not that it matters.  I was concerned they would be selling low.  Some may argue that the Astros did sell low on Paulino.  I think the Astros got a great deal in exchange for an unknown or questionable talent.

In the end, I think that we got the best deal that we could.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #80 on: November 22, 2010, 12:11:59 pm »
In related SS news, Tampa is reportedly shopping Jason Bartlett (mlbtraderumors).  Nothing shocking in that, only noticed stat wise, he's comparable to Barmes.  I've never seen him play, so if anyone else can speak to that, please do.  I'm interested to see if they actually move him and for what return.... 
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #81 on: November 22, 2010, 12:16:42 pm »
In related SS news, Tampa is reportedly shopping Jason Bartlett (mlbtraderumors).  Nothing shocking in that, only noticed stat wise, he's comparable to Barmes.  I've never seen him play, so if anyone else can speak to that, please do.  I'm interested to see if they actually move him and for what return.... 

Barltett's peak came more recently in 2009, so he'll probably command a higher return.  The assumption would be that Bartlett is more likely than Barmes to return to form.  Whoever gets Bartlett will probably give up more than a Paulino.
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Re: Paulino to Rockies
« Reply #82 on: November 22, 2010, 01:45:01 pm »
Barltett's peak came more recently in 2009, so he'll probably command a higher return.  The assumption would be that Bartlett is more likely than Barmes to return to form.  Whoever gets Bartlett will probably give up more than a Paulino.

I can't argue perception.  But if that's so, it would seem as questionable as Barmes.  Looking at Bartlett, he's had one year where he hit like a champ.  You can say this past season was a minor blip in a career on the rise.  Either way, I think it's a crapshoot.  But I will add, Bartlett has typically hit leadoff or 9th (I would assume that makes him 8th on an NL roster).  I don't see that as a particular need for the Astros. 

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