Golf Club Fitting

[Lurch]

Went to Golf Tec today to redeem a gift card I recieved last December.  I've reached a point where I'm overloaded on swing thoughts/theory, so I've been avoiding taking any more lessons and just learning while I play.  I just saw that they do an 'unbiased' club fitting, though, so I thought I'd give that a shot. 

I bought some Callaway Big Birtha Fusions 2-3 years ago and let the Golfsmith sales guy fit me.  He suggested and ordered 2 degree upright and 1" (I think) addl length.  I'm pretty sure I liked them when I first got them, but I've really not felt good about my irons for a long time now.

I walk into my hour-long fitting session and start taking some warm up swings.  Not more than 5 swings in, the instructor grabs my club, puts tape on it and has me hit off a lie board.  SON OF A BITCH.  Everything off the heal.  Lie is right, but the clubs are only 1/2" longer, rather than an inch.  I've been swinging and compensating for short irons for 2-3 years!  If you ever take the time to invest in a proper fitting, be sure to check the clubs once you recieve them...

I liked the Golf Tec setup a lot, though it's pretty damn expensive.  In the fitting, besides the now obvious length issue, he showed me how my clubs were producing far too much spin and put me on several different clubs that each reduced it by 800+ rpm (6 iron).  I've also got an issue to address where I'm casting the club head before I get to the ball sapping power and creating too much loft, which the numbers show, and the video confirmed.

I enjoyed telling the wife that her $100 birthday gift just resulted in me buying some new clubs!  Looking for the UPS truck in 10 days...

[austro]

I enjoyed telling the wife that her $100 birthday gift just resulted in me buying some new clubs!  Looking for the UPS truck in 10 days...

Yeah, distance has always been your problem. Not.

What are the new sticks? More Callaways?

[Lurch]

Yeah, distance has always been your problem. Not.

What are the new sticks? More Callaways?

Though this does address distance, too, the real problem is accuracy.  Tossing the ball up high with a ton of spin is the last thing I need.  They suggest a back spin rate of 5900 RPM (+/- 300) and I was at 7100!  Not even close.

Calloway X-22 Tour.  He suggested it was time to give up on the game improvement irons which sacrifice control for forgiveness.

[austro]

Interesting. I may give that a shot at some point. My irons are Golfsmith XPCs that I built 15 years ago. Of course, after getting some hybrids and replacing my wedges, there are only four of them left (6 through 9).

[Lurch]

Interesting. I may give that a shot at some point. My irons are Golfsmith XPCs that I built 15 years ago. Of course, after getting some hybrids and replacing my wedges, there are only four of them left (6 through 9).

Yeah, I didn't buy a full set.  Just 5-PW since I use 2 3 and 4 hybrids.  I'm going back again Wed to get fitted for those and a driver.

There's no doubt your game would be improved with new irons.  The technology change in 15 years is quite significant.

[Limey]

I've signed up for a series of lessons at GolfTec.  I really like the set up too.  I'm a stubborn idiot, so even though I may trust the instructor, if I don't feel what he's telling me, it's hard for me to make the adjustment.  Watching swing after swing repeat the same flaw is more evidence than I need.  

What's cool is that it's indoors, and they have a repeater screen at the tee box, so you don't have to run back and forth to the instructor's screen.  He can telestrate how crap you are while you stand there basking in your own craptitude.  They obviously coach like normal, so there's the usual NAMBLA Pro-Student interaction.

One thing I like is that they can put you side-by-side, frame-by-frame with a tour pro - in my case they're using Appleby - and it's cool to see.  Apparently, my follow though and finish is as good as anyone on the tour - they have all the stats on shoulder turn etc. and I'm as good as anyone and better than most at holding full extension down the target line.  It's just everything before that which is fucked.    

I'm shortly going in for a fitting as this was always part of my strategy to get better. My irons are old, and two have "fallen" in battle.  Ive still got a long way to go, but I really think this will help me a lot.

FWIW, my instructor is a former PGA tour player, Zoran Zorkic, so you're not necessarily getting a "mall" instructor.  I can already tell that he's getting bored telling me to do the same thing over and over and over...

The package is not cheap.  I signed up for 15 half-hour lessons over a 6 month period.  That includes a bag evaluation, indoor lessons, outdoor lessons and playing lessons, plus 90 minutes of in-bay practice each week, where you can still use the video equipment, but there's no instructor.  

I recommend GolfTec for those of us who don't have the chance to get out to the driving range during the week.  It's indoors and air conditioned, so you can go at lunch for a half-hour lesson and go back to work without looking like you've been swimming...in sweat.  Of course, a lot depends on your instructor too, so YMMV.  Zoran is at the 59 & Kirby location, in case anyone was interested.    

[HudsonHawk]

Out of curiosity, how much *are* golf lessons?  Should I expect to pay $20 for a half hour or $200?  I'm considering taking some lessons, as I think I can be a pretty good golfer should I apply myself to it.  I'm just not sure how much I'm willing to commit.

[Limey]

Out of curiosity, how much *are* golf lessons?  Should I expect to pay $20 for a half hour or $200?  I'm considering taking some lessons, as I think I can be a pretty good golfer should I apply myself to it.  I'm just not sure how much I'm willing to commit.

15 1/2-hour lesson package, including all of the practice, evaluations etc., plus tax is $1500, payable over the course of your lessons.  That seems like a lot in isolation, but when you compare it to the cost of green fees, carts, clubs and balls, and the fact that it should make golfing more rewarding, it's quite reasonable IMHO.

They have shorter packages at GolfTec, and can tailor your program to your needs and budget.

FWIW, at my club, the pro would charge $80 for an hour, but I rarely got a full hour of instruction.

[Lurch]

Out of curiosity, how much *are* golf lessons?  Should I expect to pay $20 for a half hour or $200?  I'm considering taking some lessons, as I think I can be a pretty good golfer should I apply myself to it.  I'm just not sure how much I'm willing to commit.

Right now (through end of Aug) you can get 10 Golf Tec lessons for $585.  Limey's has the practice time, etc. included which is why it's so much higher.

I've typically paid $40-60 for 30 mins with a pga pro teacher at the local courses, but some are as much as $150.  I'll tell you what's also a lot of fun, though.  Get a teacher at a local course that will take you out on a playing lesson.  Typically that's 9 holes for ~$150.  They'll work on a lot of the mental game that you don't get on the driving range.  Plus, you get to watch them play at the same time, which I really liked.

[HudsonHawk]

Right now (through end of Aug) you can get 10 Golf Tec lessons for $585.  Limey's has the practice time, etc. included which is why it's so much higher.

I've typically paid $40-60 for 30 mins with a pga pro teacher at the local courses, but some are as much as $150.  I'll tell you what's also a lot of fun, though.  Get a teacher at a local course that will take you out on a playing lesson.  Typically that's 9 holes for ~$150.  They'll work on a lot of the mental game that you don't get on the driving range.  Plus, you get to watch them play at the same time, which I really liked.

Sweet.  That sounds more than reasonable.  I've recently started to play more golf, and there are times when I swing really well and times when I'm a mess.  I feel like if I can get more consistent, my scores will drop dramatically.  Of course there is no substitute for actually getting out and hitting balls, but the lessons will hopefully rid me of bad habits and get me to where I'm swinging the same every time.

[Lurch]

Of course there is no substitute for actually getting out and hitting balls, but the lessons will hopefully rid me of bad habits and get me to where I'm swinging the same every time.

Keep in mind, though, hitting balls on the range incorrectly does more harm than good.  Get some instructions and then go out to hit balls with those lessons fresh on your mind, working in the drills, etc.  Always practice with a purpose...

[gleach]

I'm out on a week long golf trip this week and I am playing with two golfers that are outstanding. It's a lot of fun to go out and watch them tear up the same courses as the pros and then realize that as good as these guys are, they can't get a sniff at the tour.

Even better, as they watch me hack my way around the history of golf, they are continuously giving me small bits of help to hang my hat on. The first day we played I shot 98. Today, on day four of half-hearted instruction, I shot 90. My recommendation is to play with people better than you and listen to them when they give you suggestions. You get to see what it's like to watch great players and you also get to work on your game.

Also, get with Sporadic if you get a chance. I didn't know how good a golfer he really was until I played a full round with him. That guy can help you with your swing and show you how to do it while holding a beer in one hand.

[HudsonHawk]

Keep in mind, though, hitting balls on the range incorrectly does more harm than good.  Get some instructions and then go out to hit balls with those lessons fresh on your mind, working in the drills, etc.  Always practice with a purpose...

Right.  "Cementing the suck" is not a good game plan.  And I'm sure that's what I'm doing to my game.

[HudsonHawk]

Even better, as they watch me hack my way around the history of golf, they are continuously giving me small bits of help to hang my hat on. The first day we played I shot 98. Today, on day four of half-hearted instruction, I shot 90. My recommendation is to play with people better than you and listen to them when they give you suggestions. You get to see what it's like to watch great players and you also get to work on your game.

I've always suggested this with playing music as well.  Playing with people better than you will really elevate your game.  If they can get past the fact that you suck.

Also, get with Sporadic if you get a chance. I didn't know how good a golfer he really was until I played a full round with him. That guy can help you with your swing and show you how to do it while holding a beer in one hand.

From what I've seen, he does everything while holding a beer in one hand, not just give golf advice.

[MusicMan]

Right.  "Cementing the suck" is not a good game plan.  And I'm sure that's what I'm doing to my game.

You and Pence would get along well.

[Limey]

Keep in mind, though, hitting balls on the range incorrectly does more harm than good.  Get some instructions and then go out to hit balls with those lessons fresh on your mind, working in the drills, etc.  Always practice with a purpose...

I tried self-medicating my swing for a while, which is now why I'm spending so much on lessons. 

[Limey]

Also, get with Sporadic if you get a chance. I didn't know how good a golfer he really was until I played a full round with him. That guy can help you with your swing and show you how to do it while holding a beer in one hand.

+1.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The value of lessons is highly under-rated.  Even if all you do is attend a group clinic at the nearby course, you'll get some good tips on fundamentals and practice techniques. 

Everyone I know who has been fitted has had their lie altered to be more upright.  I wouldn't be surprised if  OEM clubmakers intentionally make clubs so they cannot be hit cleanly by your average player.  That way, when the frustration level gets high enough, you'll go out and buy a new set of clubs that supposedly fix all the issues you had with your old clubs.  It's marketing genius.  If not for the fact that a bending machine costs as much as a mid-line set of clubs, I'd buy one and do it myself (as I make my own clubs). 

At one point, I thought custom fitting was just for experienced golfers with a solid, consistent swing.  After discussing it with the golf pro at the local course (during the clinic I took), I have to agree that it can help any golfer at any level of skill, and is well worth the money. 

[sporadic]

I bought some Callaway Big Birtha Fusions 2-3 years ago and let the Golfsmith sales guy fit me.  He suggested and ordered 2 degree upright and 1" (I think) addl length.  I'm pretty sure I liked them when I first got them, but I've really not felt good about my irons for a long time now.

HOLY CRAP...no wonder you were all over the heel.  I fiitted Ping and Titleist years ago and I never put anybody (that was not 6'6" or taller) in anything that upright.  That is effectively 4 degrees upright, which a novice fitter will put somebody that has a tendency to slice in clubs too upright as a quck fix.  problem is, if you ever swing the club correctly you will come closer to hitting yourself in the left shin than hitting the green...until you start compensating for that, then the ball goes pretty much everywhere.

[Lurch]

HOLY CRAP...no wonder you were all over the heel.  I fiitted Ping and Titleist years ago and I never put anybody (that was not 6'6" or taller) in anything that upright.  That is effectively 4 degrees upright, which a novice fitter will put somebody that has a tendency to slice in clubs too upright as a quck fix.  problem is, if you ever swing the club correctly you will come closer to hitting yourself in the left shin than hitting the green...until you start compensating for that, then the ball goes pretty much everywhere.

I'm 6'6"

[sporadic]

I'm 6'6"

no need to brag about it

[Lurch]

no need to brag about it

It sure as hell hasnt helped my golf game...

So, +1" and +2 degrees doesnt surprise you then, right?

[sporadic]

It sure as hell hasnt helped my golf game...

So, +1" and +2 degrees doesnt surprise you then, right?

not at all, although height is not a good measure of trying to guess lie angle.  Example...my brother and I are both 6'2".  I am 1 degree upright and he is 2 degrees flat.  It is just uncommon for normal sized human beings to be that far off of standard.  Now that I know that you are not normal size, it does not shock me in the least.  What is not shocking, though, is a bad fitter throwing you in something off the grid to fix a swing issue.  If any of you kids out there ever have a fitter tell you you need a club more upright or flat in order to fix your hook or slice, run for it!!  All that amounts to is a quick fix, and not a very good one - ball contact will eventually suffer and your body will start making adjustments to compensate for the poor fit.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

not at all, although height is not a good measure of trying to guess lie angle.  Example...my brother and I are both 6'2".  I am 1 degree upright and he is 2 degrees flat.  It is just uncommon for normal sized human beings to be that far off of standard.  Now that I know that you are not normal size, it does not shock me in the least.  What is not shocking, though, is a bad fitter throwing you in something off the grid to fix a swing issue.  If any of you kids out there ever have a fitter tell you you need a club more upright or flat in order to fix your hook or slice, run for it!!  All that amounts to is a quick fix, and not a very good one - ball contact will eventually suffer and your body will start making adjustments to compensate for the poor fit.

Hold up, that was exactly the reason these custom fitters have given me for such a change.  Care to explain the proper reason for adjusting lie angle?  I've had to work on my address and swing path for these issues, but I hear a lot of folks making this change to fix the same issues. 

I've never adjusted lie angle.  I limit my changes to swing weighting, certain club face attributes (forgiveness, reduced spin etc..), shaft flex and bend point, and overall club weight.  I even tried a purr'd shaft, just for fun.  But I have to admit, I was considering lie angle adjustments as part of the solution. 

[Lurch]

Hold up, that was exactly the reason these custom fitters have given me for such a change.  Care to explain the proper reason for adjusting lie angle?  I've had to work on my address and swing path for these issues, but I hear a lot of folks making this change to fix the same issues. 

I've never adjusted lie angle.  I limit my changes to swing weighting, certain club face attributes (forgiveness, reduced spin etc..), shaft flex and bend point, and overall club weight.  I even tried a purr'd shaft, just for fun.  But I have to admit, I was considering lie angle adjustments as part of the solution. 

Here's the chart. Lie should be based solely on your height and arm length.  Fix swing problems with technique and training

[HudsonHawk]

At one point, I thought custom fitting was just for experienced golfers with a solid, consistent swing.  After discussing it with the golf pro at the local course (during the clinic I took), I have to agree that it can help any golfer at any level of skill, and is well worth the money. 

This is exactly the opposite of what I've heard from pros.  They say that until you swing is reasonably consistent, it's pointless to have your clubs altered.  Get your swing down THEN get your clubs fitted.  No sense in fitting clubs when you might be making significant changes to your swing.

[sporadic]

Hold up, that was exactly the reason these custom fitters have given me for such a change.  Care to explain the proper reason for adjusting lie angle?  I've had to work on my address and swing path for these issues, but I hear a lot of folks making this change to fix the same issues. 

I've never adjusted lie angle.  I limit my changes to swing weighting, certain club face attributes (forgiveness, reduced spin etc..), shaft flex and bend point, and overall club weight.  I even tried a purr'd shaft, just for fun.  But I have to admit, I was considering lie angle adjustments as part of the solution. 

That is crap, pure and simple.  You want to swing the club properly (or as "properly" as your body and athleticism will allow).  If you get a club that is too upright or flat it causes the heel or toe to drag in the ground (the divot is not uniform through the turf)...this causes ball contact to be all over the face of the club, which will lead to loss of distance...and crappy feel at impact.  If you get on a lie board and tape shows the impact centered, the last thing you want to do is adjust lie angle.  That Bush league of golf instruction, IMO.

[sporadic]

Here's the chart. Lie should be based solely on your height and arm length.  Fix swing problems with technique and training

This pisses me off.  Static fitting is bullshit.  The only way you get it correct is by shear luck.  Liek I said earlier, my bro and I are three degrees off and the same height - and both scratch golfers, one of which is the Director of Instruction at one of Houstons finest golf courses.

[sporadic]

This is exactly the opposite of what I've heard from pros.  They say that until you swing is reasonably consistent, it's pointless to have your clubs altered.  Get your swing down THEN get your clubs fitted.  No sense in fitting clubs when you might be making significant changes to your swing.

There is not much reason to change anything other than shaft flex and loft until you can make some sort of balanced move to a target (unless you are really, really tall or short, where the club in question will impede you doing so).  Lessons and club fitting should go hand in hand.

[gleach]

one of Houstons finest golf courses.

Kingwood Cove?

[HudsonHawk]

There is not much reason to change anything other than shaft flex and loft until you can make some sort of balanced move to a target (unless you are really, really tall or short, where the club in question will impede you doing so).  Lessons and club fitting should go hand in hand.

This is essentially what I've been told.  Unless you're over about 6'4" or under 5'5" or so, no need to change anything until you can swing and *not* look like a drunk monkey.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

That is crap, pure and simple.  You want to swing the club properly (or as "properly" as your body and athleticism will allow).  If you get a club that is too upright or flat it causes the heel or toe to drag in the ground (the divot is not uniform through the turf)...this causes ball contact to be all over the face of the club, which will lead to loss of distance...and crappy feel at impact.  If you get on a lie board and tape shows the impact centered, the last thing you want to do is adjust lie angle.  That Bush league of golf instruction, IMO.

Well, that's sort of where I was coming from on the subject.  But it's become so prevalent that I started to think there was some validity to it.  

The last clinic I took was good.  I have a decent swing, although I tend to fall back in to some old patterns with the longer clubs.  It took a couple classes, but the pro then took me aside and gave me the head-cover under the arm drill.  He simply said, you have a good swing, with a little bit of sway at times.  But your biggest issue is too much separate between your arms and chest.  Do this and get "the feel" of where your arms should be.   He watched me hit a dozen balls, give or take, and just gave me a nod and moved to another student.  It was a significantly different feel for me, requiring far less effort to swing consistently.  And the ball flight was a pleasant reward as well.  

Then I started a huge home improvement project.  But I'm getting back to golf...

[Lurch]

This is exactly the opposite of what I've heard from pros.  They say that until you swing is reasonably consistent, it's pointless to have your clubs altered.  Get your swing down THEN get your clubs fitted.  No sense in fitting clubs when you might be making significant changes to your swing.

I've heard the exact opposite.  Regarding length and lie, at least.  Now, your skill level WILL impact the type of clubs you want (game improvment, etc) but you don't want to try to learn the game with clubs that don't properly reach and lie on the ground

[HudsonHawk]

This pisses me off.  Static fitting is bullshit.  The only way you get it correct is by shear luck.  Liek I said earlier, my bro and I are three degrees off and the same height - and both scratch golfers, one of which is the Director of Instruction at one of Houstons finest golf courses.

Just for argument's sake...a friend of mine is a scratch golfer and has never had clubs fitted.  I could give him my clubs, your clubs or a set of 10 different clubs, and he could still go out and shoot a 75 without really thinking too much about it.  I'm not sure what that means for the chart.

[Lurch]

This pisses me off.  Static fitting is bullshit.  The only way you get it correct is by shear luck.  Liek I said earlier, my bro and I are three degrees off and the same height - and both scratch golfers, one of which is the Director of Instruction at one of Houstons finest golf courses.

And your wrists are the same distance to the ground?  I assumed that this was simply a geometry question.

[HudsonHawk]

I've heard the exact opposite.  Regarding length and lie, at least.  Now, your skill level WILL impact the type of clubs you want (game improvment, etc) but you don't want to try to learn the game with clubs that don't properly reach and lie on the ground

I think the point was, if you're not unusually tall or short, your clubs *will* reach and lie on the ground just fine for you to learn basic swing technique.  Since I am only 6'1", the standard length seems work fine.  How much difference in length should there be between someone who is 5"11 and 6'1"?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I think the point was, if you're not unusually tall or short, your clubs *will* reach and lie on the ground just fine for you to learn basic swing technique.  Since I am only 6'1", the standard length seems work fine.  How much difference in length should there be between someone who is 5"11 and 6'1"?

No way to tell. It's not about your overall height but the height from your wrist to the floor.

eta: Specifically, you use distance from wrist to floor of the lead arm. 

[HudsonHawk]

No way to tell. It's not about your overall height but the height from your wrist to the floor.

So what's the typical height of someone who needs standard length?

[MusicMan]

Just for argument's sake...a friend of mine is a scratch golfer and has never had clubs fitted.  I could give him my clubs, your clubs or a set of 10 different clubs, and he could still go out and shoot a 75 without really thinking too much about it.  I'm not sure what that means for the chart.

Would he take his hat off?

[HudsonHawk]

Would he take his hat off?

He does in the clubhouse and at the dinner table.  Of course, he's an Aggie, so he knows to.

[Lurch]

So what's the typical height of someone who needs standard length?

The length chart

Still can't answer without knowing arm length.  I guess it would help if we had a chart of typical wrist to floor measurements by height!

[Bench]

Just choke up a bit, Herve Villechaize.

[sporadic]

Just for argument's sake...a friend of mine is a scratch golfer and has never had clubs fitted.  I could give him my clubs, your clubs or a set of 10 different clubs, and he could still go out and shoot a 75 without really thinking too much about it.  I'm not sure what that means for the chart.

He is a feel player, will adjust to anything...probably an above average athlete.

[sporadic]

And your wrists are the same distance to the ground?  I assumed that this was simply a geometry question.

Yes, but they are not when we get to impact.  Static psoition of the hands can be far different than position at impact.  He moves to his left side more than I do...I stay behind the ball more

[sporadic]

Kingwood Cove?

how'd you guess??

[HudsonHawk]

The length chart

Still can't answer without knowing arm length.  I guess it would help if we had a chart of typical wrist to floor measurements by height!

So the standard club length is for anyone with a 34-35 inch wrist height, irrespective of whether you're a 5-ft tall alligator arms or a 7-ft knuckle dragger.

[Limey]

Everyone I know who has been fitted has had their lie altered to be more upright.  I wouldn't be surprised if  OEM clubmakers intentionally make clubs so they cannot be hit cleanly by your average player.

Your average player never breaks 90.  I've heard tell that your average player never breaks 100, but I don't know for sure.  My instructor's eyes lit up when I said that my best round was 77 (off the tips), and then he saw me swing, and then reality crashed down upon him.

Club makers aren't out there to scupper your game to make more money.  They're business plan is to keep you interested so that you'll buy more shit.  Making you play worse doesn't further that plan.

[HudsonHawk]

He is a feel player, will adjust to anything...probably an above average athlete.

Not really.  He's kind of a dumpy little fellow who looks pretty soft.  He doesn't hit the ball long either, but he can practically put it in a shot glass from 150 yards.

[sporadic]

So what's the typical height of someone who needs standard length?

my clubs are standard (driver is about 1.5" shorter than standard)...and I am over 6' tall.  My little brother is 5'9" and his clubs are .5" over standard, older bro is 1" over.  There is no rule of thumb...at whatever length you hit the center of the face is your "standard"

[Lurch]

So the standard club length is for anyone with a 34-35 inch wrist height, irrespective of whether you're a 5-ft tall alligator arms or a 7-ft knuckle dragger.

Other way around, but, yeah

[Limey]

 I am 1 degree upright and he is 2 degrees flat.  

Presumably, you got more dates.

[HudsonHawk]

Your average player never breaks 90.  I've heard tell that your average player never breaks 100, but I don't know for sure.  My instructor's eyes lit up when I said that my best round was 77 (off the tips), and then he saw me swing, and then reality crashed down upon him..

OK, I've broken 100 and no fucking way am I an above-average golfer.

[Limey]

This is exactly the opposite of what I've heard from pros.  They say that until you swing is reasonably consistent, it's pointless to have your clubs altered.  Get your swing down THEN get your clubs fitted.  No sense in fitting clubs when you might be making significant changes to your swing.

+1

[sporadic]

Other way around, but, yeah

goddammit, no.  There is no chart anywhere that can accurately tell you what length and lie angle your clubs should be.

[HudsonHawk]

Other way around, but, yeah

Well, if you're only 5 feet tall and your wrists are still 35 inches from the ground, you've got short fucking arms.  If you're 7 feet tall and your wrists are still only 35 inches from the ground, your elbows are probably at your knees.

[HudsonHawk]

goddammit, no.  There is no chart anywhere that can accurately tell you what length and lie angle your clubs should be.

So how can I tell?  Is there a standard chart I can look at?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

So what's the typical height of someone who needs standard length?

Standard floor to wrist measurement for "standard clubs" is 36"-38" for woods and 34"-37" for irons, according to the Golfsmith docs.  But that doesn't take in to consideration any swing path attributes based on the player.  

Also, you really don't see a significant change, unless you are outside the 5'6" to 6'6" range as standard increment steps are 1/2".  For your mid to short irons, that's not significant.  Your long irons might give you some grief, but if you are playing a 2 you can probably manage the extra half inch.

I've seen the added 1/2" ruin my friends ability (plays to a 78) ability to hit his driver, because it wasn't done correctly.  Adding or reducing club length changes the swing weight, more than than most realize, as it shifts the balance point of the club. The result is the club "feels" lighter or heavier (depending on which way you go), even if the overall club weight is essentially the same (+/- 5g).    So, unless you make further adjustments to the club, adding length may fix one issue while causing some other issues if you can't adapt to the feel of the altered club.   This is probably more to the point Sporadic is raising about there being no such thing as "standard".  

[S.P. Rodriguez]

OK, I've broken 100 and no fucking way am I an above-average golfer.

You need to play more golf.  It sounds like you and I are comparable in playing skill.  But I have played with some friends who "play all the time" (which I don't, maybe 4-5 times a year) and it was misery.  I was ecstatic to get off the course in 5 hrs. 

[HudsonHawk]

You need to play more golf.  It sounds like you and I are comparable in playing skill.  But I have played with some friends who "play all the time" (which I don't, maybe 4-5 times a year) and it was misery.  I was ecstatic to get off the course in 5 hrs. 

I definitely need to play more.  I played with some co-workers earlier this year, and had been afraid because they play all the time and I didn't want to embarass myself.  Then I saw them play and felt sorry for them.  I said "I know I suck, I've played 10 times in my life.  You guys play 10 times a month and suck just as bad."  I used to be a pretty good athlete, and can swing a baseball bat better than most fellows.  I think if I work at it, my golf game could improve significantly.

[sporadic]

So how can I tell?  Is there a standard chart I can look at?

you hit multiple clubs and the length of the one that you hit the best is your standard

[sporadic]

and can swing a baseball bat better than most fellows.  I think if I work at it, my golf game could improve significantly.

absofuckinglutely.  there is a lot more that can be transferred to golf from baseball than many realize.  Impact in golf is close to BB impact on a liner right over the 2nd base bag

[Ron Brand]

So if I went back to my 1975 bats I'd have warning track power?

[sporadic]

So if I went back to my 1975 bats I'd have warning track power?

dude, you have power to burn...your problem is the fair pole in left field ain't far enough left!!

[HudsonHawk]

you hit multiple clubs and the length of the one that you hit the best is your standard

I'll need a chart though.

[Ron Brand]

Maybe if I close my stance a little more...

[sporadic]

Maybe if I close my stance a little more...

RB's sarcasm brings up another fine point...usually you are better off moving in the direction of your miss (just like in bowling).  Aiming right for a hook and left for a slice generally just compounds the mistake.

[BudGirl]

how'd you guess??

he might have known, but i'd look for your last name in a search.

[sporadic]

he might have known, but i'd look for your last name in a search.

if ya did, you would know he was kidding.  Gleach knows whats up...my bro is kind of a big deal.  People know him.  He has many leather bound books and his apartment smells of rich mohogany.

[BudGirl]

if ya did, you would know he was kidding.  Gleach knows whats up...my bro is kind of a big deal.  People know him.  He has many leather bound books and his apartment smells of rich mohogany.

I have looked for your dad before, because I was telling a friend about you.  Your whole family seems to be golf freaks.

[sporadic]

I have looked for your dad before, because I was telling a friend about you.  Your whole family seems to be golf freaks.

go to yahoo, type in Herridge Golf and this is the first thing that pops up:

http://classroom.misd.org/webs/rherridge/mhs_coaches.htm

[Limey]

OK, I've broken 100 and no fucking way am I an above-average golfer.

Never said you were.  It's all relative and mostly about the "now".  As I pointed out (self-servingly), I have broken 80 (more than once), and I'm dogshit.

[Limey]

absofuckinglutely.  there is a lot more that can be transferred to golf from baseball than many realize.  Impact in golf is close to BB impact on a liner right over the 2nd base bag

...er Pence...Paging Hunt...

[austro]

The Google is an amazing thing. In this story about the 2009 Conroe Country Club Invitational we find this little nugget:

When Frankhouser put his drive on the first hole in the right rough and then hit his second shot off a tree, it appeared that Brad Herridge, the son of longtime Montgomery High School golf coach Rusty Herridge, would win the match on the 19th hole. But Herridge’s second shot found the water in front of the green leaving the door open.

[sporadic]

The Google is an amazing thing. In this story about the 2009 Conroe Country Club Invitational we find this little nugget:

yeah, that sucked.  It actually found the water right of the green.  I don't lay up from 200 yards...ever!!!!!!!

[Limey]

yeah, that sucked.  It actually found the water right of the green.  I don't lay up from 200 yards...ever!!!!!!!

See Cup, Tin.

[Lurch]

Sweet.  That sounds more than reasonable.  I've recently started to play more golf, and there are times when I swing really well and times when I'm a mess.  I feel like if I can get more consistent, my scores will drop dramatically.  Of course there is no substitute for actually getting out and hitting balls, but the lessons will hopefully rid me of bad habits and get me to where I'm swinging the same every time.

You have a Golf Tec nearby?  I just went in today and did a swing evaluation session.  They'll get a bunch of video and pics of your swing using sensors on your hips and shoulders, overlay some guidelines (using comparable pros) on-screen and give you a pretty good feel of what different areas you'll need to do most work on.  All of it is saved and viewable online (including audio of the instructor as he talked to you).  They'll also present you with a road-map, which of course is the tie-in to getting you to signing up for a package.  It feels a bit like being sold a time-share, but it does seem logical that they'll need a fairly long series of sessions with me so I suppose a package deal is warranted.

My instructor said I was going to get worse before I got better and the roadmap was for 15-20 weekly lessons.  I've got some pretty serious flaws to work on.  It was pretty frustrating to find that areas I thought I had fixed on my own (over-swinging at the top, collapsing of the arms at the top, straightening of my back leg on the back-swing, a below plane back-swing and an above plane forward swing, and ultimately an outside in path) were still quite bad, and it was painfully obvious on video.  But, I've got a great finish, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

You have a Golf Tec nearby?  I just went in today and did a swing evaluation session.  They'll get a bunch of video and pics of your swing using sensors on your hips and shoulders, overlay some guidelines (using comparable pros) on-screen and give you a pretty good feel of what different areas you'll need to do most work on.  All of it is saved and viewable online (including audio of the instructor as he talked to you).  They'll also present you with a road-map, which of course is the tie-in to getting you to signing up for a package.  It feels a bit like being sold a time-share, but it does seem logical that they'll need a fairly long series of sessions with me so I suppose a package deal is warranted.

My instructor said I was going to get worse before I got better and the roadmap was for 15-20 weekly lessons.  I've got some pretty serious flaws to work on.  It was pretty frustrating to find that areas I thought I had fixed on my own (over-swinging at the top, collapsing of the arms at the top, straightening of my back leg on the back-swing, a below plane back-swing and an above plane forward swing, and ultimately an outside in path) were still quite bad, and it was painfully obvious on video.  But, I've got a great finish, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

I think you just described my swing as well as that of half the golfers I know. 

[sporadic]

You have a Golf Tec nearby?  I just went in today and did a swing evaluation session.  They'll get a bunch of video and pics of your swing using sensors on your hips and shoulders, overlay some guidelines (using comparable pros) on-screen and give you a pretty good feel of what different areas you'll need to do most work on.  All of it is saved and viewable online (including audio of the instructor as he talked to you).  They'll also present you with a road-map, which of course is the tie-in to getting you to signing up for a package.  It feels a bit like being sold a time-share, but it does seem logical that they'll need a fairly long series of sessions with me so I suppose a package deal is warranted.

My instructor said I was going to get worse before I got better and the roadmap was for 15-20 weekly lessons.  I've got some pretty serious flaws to work on.  It was pretty frustrating to find that areas I thought I had fixed on my own (over-swinging at the top, collapsing of the arms at the top, straightening of my back leg on the back-swing, a below plane back-swing and an above plane forward swing, and ultimately an outside in path) were still quite bad, and it was painfully obvious on video.  But, I've got a great finish, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

Good god.   Good thing Lee Trevino or Jim Furyk never went to a place like that.

[sporadic]

I would like to add that I am all for taking lessons, but I feel like instruction is getting way too complicated.  Start simple.  Get your hands on the club properly.  Get to your right side on the backswing and swing your arms with your body to your target on the downswing.  It really ain't rocket science.  As you progress, the finer points can be taught.  Unless you are making drastic changes to your grip, "it will get worse before it gets better" often does not apply.  Actually, that philosophy generally applies to pros re-tooling their swings.  They are so in sync with their flaws that correcting them will make them worse...albeit for a while.  Lessons should yield results...and not a clouded mind.

[HudsonHawk]

I would like to add that I am all for taking lessons, but I feel like instruction is getting way too complicated.  Start simple.  Get your hands on the club properly.  Get to your right side on the backswing and swing your arms with your body to your target on the downswing.  It really ain't rocket science.  As you progress, the finer points can be taught.  Unless you are making drastic changes to your grip, "it will get worse before it gets better" often does not apply.  Actually, that philosophy generally applies to pros re-tooling their swings.  They are so in sync with their flaws that correcting them will make them worse...albeit for a while.  Lessons should yield results...and not a clouded mind.

I was just gonna ask...what if I just want to put the ball in the cup using fewer stroke?  All of that sounds really complicated, and it reminds me of the old baseball hitting lesson; "see the ball, hit the ball".  I know there are a lot of finer points to a great golf swing, but really...I'm 43 years old and am just now really thinking about taking up the game on any sort of regular basis.  I don't want to be Tiger Woods, I just want to a) not embarass myself and b) enjoy a few hours on the course.  Does that make mean I shouldn't even bother?

[sporadic]

I was just gonna ask...what if I just want to put the ball in the cup using fewer stroke?  All of that sounds really complicated, and it reminds me of the old baseball hitting lesson; "see the ball, hit the ball".  I know there are a lot of finer points to a great golf swing, but really...I'm 43 years old and am just now really thinking about taking up the game on any sort of regular basis.  I don't want to be Tiger Woods, I just want to a) not embarass myself and b) enjoy a few hours on the course.  Does that make mean I shouldn't even bother?

You absolutely should bother.  I have an appointment to get to in H-town, but will most assuredly get back with on this later.

[Lurch]

I would like to add that I am all for taking lessons, but I feel like instruction is getting way too complicated.  Start simple.  Get your hands on the club properly.  Get to your right side on the backswing and swing your arms with your body to your target on the downswing.  It really ain't rocket science.  As you progress, the finer points can be taught.  Unless you are making drastic changes to your grip, "it will get worse before it gets better" often does not apply.  Actually, that philosophy generally applies to pros re-tooling their swings.  They are so in sync with their flaws that correcting them will make them worse...albeit for a while.  Lessons should yield results...and not a clouded mind.

For me, I feel like I'm doing what you describe and play pretty good golf.  Just not as good as I'd like to be.  I can hit the ball fairly straight, fairly long, but not accurately and consistantly enough to be on the green in regulation more than 8 holes per round.  I want to be that guy, and I'll happily start over on some of these areas if it will be the foundation I need to get there.  I'm not going to consistantly break 80 with this swing path.

[Lurch]

I was just gonna ask...what if I just want to put the ball in the cup using fewer stroke?  All of that sounds really complicated, and it reminds me of the old baseball hitting lesson; "see the ball, hit the ball".  I know there are a lot of finer points to a great golf swing, but really...I'm 43 years old and am just now really thinking about taking up the game on any sort of regular basis.  I don't want to be Tiger Woods, I just want to a) not embarass myself and b) enjoy a few hours on the course.  Does that make mean I shouldn't even bother?

See my comment above.  You're probably athletic enough to do 'good enough' with just a little work.  I've taken a handful of lessons a year for 15 years and you see how mental I am still!  Doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy golf without investing any more time in lessons.  Austro will tell you (I think) that even on my really bad days, I love being out there.  I just want to be much better.  That feeling of hitting the ball crisp and seeing it do what you wanted it to do is addictive, and for me, fucking allusive.

[Bench]

Definitely take a few lessons.  What you shouldn't do is read all the philosophy crap in Golf Magazine and buy all the ridiculous gadgets being hocked at 3:00am on the Golf Channel.

Best golf advice I ever received was from a pro named Scott who retired for a short time to open my favorite local pizza place by my apartment in college.  I was just getting back into the game after a three year self-imposed hiatus, and had no idea what I was doing.  The next time I was getting a slice, I started telling Scott about my swing problems.  He cut me short, glared at me, and said "It's simple fucking game.  There's a ball on the ground.  There's a stick in your hand.  Hit the fucking ball."

Six months later he was divorced, his restaurant bankrupt, and he was looking to get on the Nike tour.    

[Limey]

You have a Golf Tec nearby?  I just went in today and did a swing evaluation session.  They'll get a bunch of video and pics of your swing using sensors on your hips and shoulders, overlay some guidelines (using comparable pros) on-screen and give you a pretty good feel of what different areas you'll need to do most work on.  All of it is saved and viewable online (including audio of the instructor as he talked to you).  They'll also present you with a road-map, which of course is the tie-in to getting you to signing up for a package.  It feels a bit like being sold a time-share, but it does seem logical that they'll need a fairly long series of sessions with me so I suppose a package deal is warranted.

My instructor said I was going to get worse before I got better and the roadmap was for 15-20 weekly lessons.  I've got some pretty serious flaws to work on.  It was pretty frustrating to find that areas I thought I had fixed on my own (over-swinging at the top, collapsing of the arms at the top, straightening of my back leg on the back-swing, a below plane back-swing and an above plane forward swing, and ultimately an outside in path) were still quite bad, and it was painfully obvious on video.  But, I've got a great finish, so I've got that going for me.  Which is nice.

Pluuuuuuuus 1

[Limey]

I would like to add that I am all for taking lessons, but I feel like instruction is getting way too complicated.  Start simple.  Get your hands on the club properly.  Get to your right side on the backswing and swing your arms with your body to your target on the downswing.  It really ain't rocket science.  As you progress, the finer points can be taught.  Unless you are making drastic changes to your grip, "it will get worse before it gets better" often does not apply.  Actually, that philosophy generally applies to pros re-tooling their swings.  They are so in sync with their flaws that correcting them will make them worse...albeit for a while.  Lessons should yield results...and not a clouded mind.

Natural talent > Forced talent.

You are ahead of the curve, Sir.

[Lurch]

Natural talent > Forced talent.

You are ahead of the curve, Sir.

My thoughts, too.  Not to take anything from Sporadic, because he probably worked his ass off to get to where he is, but some of us need a fuckload of specific technical help to overcome the obsticals our natural 'just hit the ball with the stick' swing puts in front of us.

[HudsonHawk]

My thoughts, too.  Not to take anything from Sporadic, because he probably worked his ass off to get to where he is, but some of us need a fuckload of specific technical help to overcome the obsticals our natural 'just hit the ball with the stick' swing puts in front of us.

I mean, I get that there is a lot to a golf swing.  But I've coached some baseball (and I think there are lots of parallels to a golf swing) and I definitely think that sometimes simple instruction is more benefitial.  When it comes to hitting, I could go on and on about arm angles, hand height, feet width, weight shift, bat angles, etc...but sometimes if a guy is struggling, a simple "relax...keep your hands up, see the ball, hit the ball, let the bat do the work" is really what's the most helpful.  I don't know, perhaps I'm naive.  At any rate, I'm definitely going to take some lessons.  Even if I only get the simple version, I'm sure it will be enormously helpful for someone at my skill level.  And that in turn should make the game more enjoyable, which is what it's all about anyway.

[Lurch]

I mean, I get that there is a lot to a golf swing.  But I've coached some baseball (and I think there are lots of parallels to a golf swing) and I definitely think that sometimes simple instruction is more benefitial.  When it comes to hitting, I could go on and on about arm angles, hand height, feet width, weight shift, bat angles, etc...but sometimes if a guy is struggling, a simple "relax...keep your hands up, see the ball, hit the ball, let the bat do the work" is really what's the most helpful.  I don't know, perhaps I'm naive.  At any rate, I'm definitely going to take some lessons.  Even if I only get the simple version, I'm sure it will be enormously helpful for someone at my skill level.  And that in turn should make the game more enjoyable, which is what it's all about anyway.

I agree with you.  Simple is probably most beneficial for most people.  When you want to take it to the next level, that's probably where the angles, etc. come into play.  The instructor talked to me today, in fact, about bringing my wife in, and he made the specific point that he wouldn't approach her the same way at all, instead focusing on posture, balance, rhythm, etc., as she's played very little.

I'm probably guilty of projecting too much of myself and what I'm looking for on your questions, so Ill stfu now!

[HudsonHawk]

I'm probably guilty of projecting too much of myself and what I'm looking for on your questions, so Ill stfu now!

I just don't want to get overwhelmed and subsequently discouraged.  But I appreciate all perspectives.

[sporadic]

I just don't want to get overwhelmed and subsequently discouraged.  But I appreciate all perspectives.

Start with a wedge.  ball slightly up of center in your stance in an athletic starting position.  Swing your arms and torso in a half while shifting weight slightly to your right side (let your wrists hinge naturally to get the club pointing skyward at the back of your half swing, but do not hinge them forcefully).  Swing your arms and torso through contact towards your target...do not hit the ball, let it get in the way.  Try and time your arms moving through impact with your belt buckle.  Once you feel farily comfortable with that, lengthen your swing and at the same time gradually move the ball up more in your stance and shift your weight more to your right side on the backswing, as the more force you create the more room you need to work your arms and body through the shot going to your target.  Most golfers try to tie themselves to the golf ball...they turn in a barrell and never really get off the ball.  Every athletic swinging motion starts with weight away from the target and moving target side while swinging (think groundstroke in tennis or setting up with your weight back hitting a baseball).  Cannot stress this enough.  The "keep your head down" teachers have fucked up more golfers than you can imagine.  You cannot turn towards a target without your head naturally moving up and to the target as you rotate forward.  Tennis players keep their head down?  baseball players?  now I am on a tangent...my point is learning to swing a golf club properly is not such a technical process.  It is about learning to coordinate body movements in relation to a target, not a little white ball.  There are many drills to help practice the body movement without actually hitting golf balls, and you do not have to hit balls 4 hours a week to get better.  If you commit to learning the above (or somthing thereabouts as prescribed by a PGA professional) and don't go out and just wail away, you will immediately see yourself hitting some pretty dang good shots and enjoying the game more.

[HudsonHawk]

do not hit the ball, let it get in the way. 

I like this way of looking at it.  Thanks for the advice.

[austro]

I can vouch for the approach that sporadic is suggesting. A couple of months ago, I had grown so frustrated with my inconsistent wedge play that I spent a couple of days at the range and hit nothing but 1/2 and 3/4 wedges. Somewhere in the middle of my Saturday session something clicked, and I really started to feel the motion he's talking about: turning the torso, then swinging my arms (still in, not breaking away from the body) in concert with my turn on the downswing, so that hands and belt buckle were coming through the hitting area at the same time. It's hard to describe, but when that start happening, it feels very effortless but powerful. I find that I do better now with a shorter backswing because it makes it more likely that I'll keep the swing pieces together, and the benefits from that outweigh whatever I thought I was getting from the longer backswing.

For me, the two most important things that I think about now are a) getting my backswing on plane (my mental model is of a disc with the center at my neck and circumference tangent to the target line, and clubhead following the circumference of the disc), and b) starting my downswing gently enough that I don't cause the parts to separate (which leads to the casting that Lurch was talking about, and which is my #1 problem). If I do those things, my right side stays inside, and it becomes a lot easier to release the club properly so that I get that in-out-in path in the contact area.

Now I keep a 7-iron in the living room, and between innings I get up and take half a dozen 3/4 swings with it just to reinforce the things I'm trying to feel. I think that helps too.

Finally, one other thing that sporadic mentioned, and many others have mentioned too: youl do a lot better if you just try to swing the club rather than try to hit the ball. Easy to say, but really hard to do (at least for me). It's even harder when you're out on the course and have to carry some hazard.

[Limey]

The instructor talked to me today, in fact, about bringing my wife in, and he made the specific point that he wouldn't approach her the same way at all, instead focusing on posture, balance, rhythm, etc.

We still talking about golf?

[Limey]

One thing I have learned is that, contrary to what I've been doing my whole golfing life, I need to clear out my lower body before hitting the ball.   I've always tried to stay closed, thinking that it improves distance which, as it turns out, is complete crap.   

Turning my body prior to impact is my white whale, it seems.   

[Lurch]

We still talking about golf?

Well played

[Bench]

One thing I have learned is that, contrary to what I've been doing my whole golfing life, I need to clear out my lower body before hitting the ball. 

I recommend metamucil.

[MRaup]

 

Turning my body prior to impact is my white whale, it seems.   

What does HH have to do with your golf swing?

[Limey]

All this shit flying leads me to believe that we need another SnS golf day.  If we could get on somewhere near-town, like Memorial, I'd be happy to host an after-party, including rolling out the yet-to-be-purchased margarita machine.

Who's in?

[Guinness]

What does HH have to do with your golf swing?

Wow, HH has sure been on the sharp end lately.  NTTAWWT.

[Ron Brand]

All this shit flying leads me to believe that we need another SnS golf day.  If we could get on somewhere near-town, like Memorial, I'd be happy to host an after-party, including rolling out the yet-to-be-purchased margarita machine.

Who's in?

I might show my ass again up for that.

[sporadic]

All this shit flying leads me to believe that we need another SnS golf day.  If we could get on somewhere near-town, like Memorial, I'd be happy to host an after-party, including rolling out the yet-to-be-purchased margarita machine.

Who's in?

I'm in.  You live over on Briar right?  You have a pool over there?

[Bench]

All this shit flying leads me to believe that we need another SnS golf day.  If we could get on somewhere near-town, like Memorial, I'd be happy to host an after-party, including rolling out the yet-to-be-purchased margarita machine.

Who's in?

I'm in.

[Limey]

I'm in.  You live over on Briar right?  You have a pool over there?

Shepherd and 59.  "Ding" on the pool.

[Ebby Calvin]

You have a pool over there?

Pool and a pond.  Pond would be good for you.

[Lurch]

When are you bastards coming to Austin? Thought we had a home and home arrangement?  Even UT travels to Rice (sort of)

[MusicMan]

Some guy named Tiger got his swing figured out a little better.  -2 through 9.

[chuck]

All this shit flying leads me to believe that we need another SnS golf day.  If we could get on somewhere near-town, like Memorial, I'd be happy to host an after-party, including rolling out the yet-to-be-purchased margarita machine.

Who's in?

I'm in.

[Lurch]

Some guy named Tiger got his swing figured out a little better.  -2 through 9.

Sent him the charts.

[gleach]

I'm in, but be warned. I birdied 18 on both the Old Course and Carnoustie this week, so I've already had my fill of birdies for the year.

[Limey]

I'm in, but be warned. I birdied 18 on both the Old Course and Carnoustie this week, so I've already had my fill of birdies for the year.

Did you put one in the Road Hole Bunker?  You're exploits on Old Course #17 are notably absent from your crowing report.

[austro]

Did you put one in the Road Hole Bunker?  You're exploits on Old Course #17 are notably absent from your crowing report.

Probably beaned some hotel guest out on their veranda watching the proceedings.

[Limey]

Probably beaned some hotel guest out on their veranda watching the proceedings.

It's Scotland in August.  No way anyone was outside on the veranda without a survival suit.

[hostros7]

Shepherd and 59.  "Ding" on the pool.

I could be up for this.  I live a couple blocks away.

[Lurch]

To address the over swinging and collapsing the left arm, I'm doing the ball between the arms drill.  Put a ~10" ball (think kids size soccer ball) between your arms and take full swings without letting it drop.  Previously I would get to the top (which I was treating as maybe the 2/3rds point!) then let the right elbow fly out and the left arm bend, brining my hands right next to my head.  This just felt like a full swing needed for full power.  Now, while holding the ball, I can't swing really any further than about shoulder high with my hands.  It's crazy to see the ball fly just as far with this "short" swing.  I don't think the club is getting much past vertical at the top of my swing.  Whole new respect for those that somehow get it back to parallel.

[austro]

Now, while holding the ball, I can't swing really any further than about shoulder high with my hands.  It's crazy to see the ball fly just as far with this "short" swing.

Isn't that amazing? And still the brain is back there saying "if you just take it back a little further and swing a little harder, it will go even further!". Fucking brain.

[gleach]

Did you put one in the Road Hole Bunker?  You're exploits on Old Course #17 are notably absent from your crowing report.

Actually, on the Road Hole I banged my best drive of the day over the hotel, pushed a 5 iron into the the rough on the right, shanked a chip, and 2 putted for bogey. One of the guys I was traveling with went birdie-birdie to finish with a cool 74. It was nice to play with no wind. I can see how that could be a completely different course with wind, but we had a nice calm day.