Lost

[HudsonHawk]

The series finale starts in 15 minutes.  I suppose there'll be a few hours of recap and trying to explain how we got where we are, but then they'll attempt to wrap it all up.  I'm not optimistic, but I must say I'm looking forward to this series finale moreso than any show I've ever watched.  We'll see how it goes.

[Alkie]

The boat sinks, the girl dies, and they shoot the dog.

[Lurch]

The Smoking Man will return

[Limey]

Two by two with hands of blue.

[HudsonHawk]

Yep.  That sucked harder than anything has ever sucked in the history of suckdom.  I figured it would be bad, but I could have never guessed they could have fucked it up that bad.  Oh well, thems the breaks.

[Bench]

Yep.  That sucked harder than anything has ever sucked in the history of suckdom.  I figured it would be bad, but I could have never guessed they could have fucked it up that bad.  Oh well, thems the breaks.

I'm glad you watched.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm glad you watched.

Me too.  Just to confirm what I've supsected all along...that the writers had no fucking clue where to go with this after Season 1.

[Bench]

Me too.  Just to confirm what I've supsected all along...that the writers had no fucking clue where to go with this after Season 1.

I just don't get that criticism.  It's a long-term serial narrative.  Your complaint is like trying to poke holes in the various discrepancies in Crime and Punishment.  Tolstoy sure as shit didn't know what he was doing when he first started publishing installments. 

[chuck]

I just don't get that criticism.  It's a long-term serial narrative.  Your complaint is like trying to poke holes in the various discrepancies in Crime and Punishment.  Tolstoy sure as shit didn't know what he was doing when he first started publishing installments. 

Dostoevsky.

[drew corleone]

I loved it.

[matadorph]

I gave up on this shitfest of a show about three weeks into the current season and never looked back. My life is better for it because now I don't have to waste any more time trying to figure out what the hell is going on and when it's happening.

[chuck]

I gave up on this shitfest of a show about three weeks into the current season and never looked back. My life is better for it because now I don't have to waste any more time trying to figure out what the hell is going on and when it's happening.

Dude. They're talking about some TV show, not the Astros.

[subnuclear]

I just don't get that criticism.  It's a long-term serial narrative.  Your complaint is like trying to poke holes in the various discrepancies in Crime and Punishment.  Tolstoy sure as shit didn't know what he was doing when he first started publishing installments. 

I'm still putting things together in my mind and I haven't done any outside reading on the show, but I'm pretty sure they had the ending in mind from the beginning.  There are clues in the episodes that are clear to me now.  I thinking of watching the whole show over again. 

[BizidyDizidy]

I'm still putting things together in my mind and I haven't done any outside reading on the show, but I'm pretty sure they had the ending in mind from the beginning.  There are clues in the episodes that are clear to me now.  I thinking of watching the whole show over again. 

I liked the finale but had the opposite complaint - it pretty much only wrapped up season 6

[BizidyDizidy]

The most annoying thing about the finale is all the mouthbreathers who are saying "i knew they were dead the whole time." Whoosh!

[HudsonHawk]

I just don't get that criticism.  It's a long-term serial narrative.  Your complaint is like trying to poke holes in the various discrepancies in Crime and Punishment.  Tolstoy sure as shit didn't know what he was doing when he first started publishing installments.  

My complaint is that they didn't attempt to answer any of the mysteries they brought up in Season 1, or even worse, any of the mysteries they continually brought up throughout the series.  They turned it into a "who's boinking who/Grey's Anatomy" lovefest.  I guess if that's all I thought the series could be, I wouldn't complain.  It's just that it could have been the greatest series in the history of television and they let it turn to mush.  It's like this year's Astros....they're a 100-loss team.  That's just who they are.  I can't really complain because they simply do not have the talent.  Come to think of it, baseball is a pretty good analogy.  Lost had '27 Yankees talent and ended with a '61 Phillies record.

[HudsonHawk]

The most annoying thing about the finale is all the mouthbreathers who are saying "i knew they were dead the whole time." Whoosh!

They weren't dead the whole time.  That's what makes it even worse. 

[BizidyDizidy]

They weren't dead the whole time.  That's what makes it even worse. 

That's my point.

[subnuclear]

They weren't dead the whole time.  That's what makes it even worse. 

I may not be breathing through my nose, but I thought the ending implied they were dead the whole time and the island was a type of purgatory.  What am I missing?

[BizidyDizidy]

I may not be breathing through my nose, but I thought the ending implied they were dead the whole time and the island was a type of purgatory.  What am I missing?

Everything. Only strange LA was "purgatory". Everything that happened on the island happened, people died at various times (some on the show, some after what we see), and then they've all come back together to find each other. Thus my point that it only wrapped up the last season really (i.e. what's going on in LA vs. the Island).

[Andyzipp]

I may not be breathing through my nose, but I thought the ending implied they were dead the whole time and the island was a type of purgatory.  What am I missing?

Nope.

The island was real (Christian said as much, and the actors confirmed it after the show).  The chars that died on in the actual timeline (turns out there was only one and the bomb going off ALWAYS happened) died when you saw it.  The rest went on to lead lives (Hurley and Ben on the island, the folks on the plane somewhere off island.)

The flash sideways timeline was purgatory for all of them.

[Bench]

My complaint is that they didn't attempt to answer any of the mysteries they brought up in Season 1, or even worse, any of the mysteries they continually brought up throughout the series.  They turned it into a "who's boinking who/Grey's Anatomy" lovefest.  I guess if that's all I thought the series could be, I wouldn't complain.  It's just that it could have been the greatest series in the history of television and they let it turn to mush.  It's like this year's Astros....they're a 100-loss team.  That's just who they are.  I can't really complain because they simply do not have the talent.  Come to think of it, baseball is a pretty good analogy.  Lost had '27 Yankees talent and ended with a '61 Phillies record.

I think the original story they wanted to tell, and the story they in fact did end up telling, is the story of a group of flawed strangers who find in eachother and in adversity a chance at redemption.  All the mysteries dropped in were just details to the story, not the story itself.

[HudsonHawk]

Nope.

The island was real (Christian said as much, and the actors confirmed it after the show).  The chars that died on in the actual timeline (turns out there was only one and the bomb going off ALWAYS happened) died when you saw it.  The rest went on to lead lives (Hurley and Ben on the island, the folks on the plane somewhere off island.)

The flash sideways timeline was purgatory for all of them.

The various timelines were just fucked up all the way around.  And they still never answered the single most important question, the entire point of the show...what the fuck is the deal with the island?

[subnuclear]

Well, I'm glad I asked then.  So when the bomb went off it just transported them forward in time?

[HudsonHawk]

I think the original story they wanted to tell, and the story they in fact did end up telling, is the story of a group of flawed strangers who find in eachother and in adversity a chance at redemption.  All the mysteries dropped in were just details to the story, not the story itself.

The story was a mystery about the island...not a "who's sleeping with who".  Or at least it should have been.  We're all flawed.  There was nothing special about these people *other* than the island.  Everything in the story revolved around the island.  So tell me about the fucking island!!!!

[Andyzipp]

I think the original story they wanted to tell, and the story they in fact did end up telling, is the story of a group of flawed strangers who find in eachother and in adversity a chance at redemption.  All the mysteries dropped in were just details to the story, not the story itself.

And that's pretty much what Darlton have been saying since the beginning of the show, that it's a character drama, and the story was how these people are connected to one another. 

The mythology was interesting and (mostly) unanswered, but they've sworn all along that that wasn't what the show was about.

[Andyzipp]

The various timelines were just fucked up all the way around.  And they still never answered the single most important question, the entire point of the show...what the fuck is the deal with the island?

Ah, but they've been saying for a pretty long while that the island was just another character.  I completely get that you think they're lying, but they were saying that during season 1.

[Andyzipp]

The story was a mystery about the island...

Not according to Darlton or the actors, but what do they know?

We get it...you wanted a series about physics/mythology/science and Egyptian Gods doing battle.  And you'd have picked apart the physics and science part of that as well.

[Bench]

And that's pretty much what Darlton have been saying since the beginning of the show, that it's a character drama, and the story was how these people are connected to one another. 

The mythology was interesting and (mostly) unanswered, but they've sworn all along that that wasn't what the show was about.

And the finale did a great job of embracing the true "character" aspect of the show.  The connections between the characters that developed and that shape and define all of them was the most important thing.  Each moment of "going island conscious" last night was fantastic. 

[Bench]

So tell me about the fucking island!!!!

What don't you know about it?

[HudsonHawk]

Ah, but they've been saying for a pretty long while that the island was just another character.  I completely get that you think they're lying, but they were saying that during season 1.

The island is the point of the show.  There is no show without it.  If they had absolutely zero intention of actually wrapping up the story when they started, then it's worse than I thought.

[HudsonHawk]

What don't you know about it?

Why was it magical?  Why did it heal the sick?  Why did it need protecting?  Why were Ben and Widmore at odds over it?  How did it move?  Where did Jacob's mother come from?  Who was there before her?  What happened to the island?  Is it still there?  Is someone still protecting it?  Who?....

[Andyzipp]

The island is the point of the show.  There is no show without it.  If they had absolutely zero intention of actually wrapping up the story when they started, then it's worse than I thought.

The island was a setting for a story about these people.  It could have been set in a law firm or a hospital, but it was set on a freaky island.

I wanted more of the mythology answered as well, but I completely disagree with you about the show and the finale.  I thought it was incredibly well done.

[HudsonHawk]

Not according to Darlton or the actors, but what do they know?

We get it...you wanted a series about physics/mythology/science and Egyptian Gods doing battle.  And you'd have picked apart the physics and science part of that as well.

No, I'm saying if the island is simply another character, it is the single most important character in the storyline.  They need to tell the story of that character.

[HudsonHawk]

The island was a setting for a story about these people.  It could have been set in a law firm or a hospital, but it was set on a freaky island.

If it were set in a magical law firm or hospital that held supernatural powers, and the point the show was everyone was at odds over the future of the magical law firm or hospital, and they ended the show without answering any of the questions about the magical law firm/hospital or telling us what happened with it, then I'd be just as disappointed.

[Bench]

Why was it magical? Why did it heal the sick? 

It was.  See Jacob's bottle metaphor/crazy mom's light in all of us theory.

 Why did it need protecting? 

Turns out, it didn't.  That's what Hurley changed.

Why were Ben and Widmore at odds over it?  How did it move? 

Because of interpersonal power struggles and ego.  There was no good v. evil with those two, they didn't understand they were on the same side. 

Where did Jacob's mother come from?  Who was there before her? 

On the list of unanswered questions, this ranks among the ones I care least about.  It just is.

What happened to the island?  Is it still there?  Is someone still protecting it?  Who?....

Yes, it's still there.  Hurley is protecting it by sharing the "light" out in to the world, just as he did as a benefactor in the sideways world, or as distributor of the hatch pantry in the island world.  Instead of hoarding, he shares.  It's his Island Protector Style.

[HudsonHawk]

It was.  See Jacob's bottle metaphor/crazy mom's light in all of us theory.

That's not an answer.

Turns out, it didn't.  That's what Hurley changed.

Huh?  When? 

Yes, it's still there.  Hurley is protecting it by sharing the "light" out in to the world, just as he did as a benefactor in the sideways world, or as distributor of the hatch pantry in the island world.  Instead of hoarding, he shares.  It's his Island Protector Style.

Hurley is dead.

[Andyzipp]

Hurley is dead.

Or not.  That's kind of what was meant by "there is no now here." Today in 2010, Hurley and Ben could very much still be on the island.

[Bench]

Hurley is dead.

When did that happen?  Jack saved the island after MiB was killed.  Hurley is now the island protector.  Didn't you see Ben's whole "keeping people away from the island was Jacob's style, it's up to you to create your own style (or perhaps make your own kind of music?)" speech?

[Bench]

That's not an answer.

Other than latitude/longitude, what type of explanation are you looking for?

[homer]

When did that happen?  Jack saved the island after MiB was killed.  Hurley is now the island protector.  Didn't you see Ben's whole "keeping people away from the island was Jacob's style, it's up to you to create your own style (or perhaps make your own kind of music?)" speech?

No, he's dead. Ben alluded to this saying 'he was a good number 1...'

[HudsonHawk]

When did that happen?  Jack saved the island after MiB was killed.  Hurley is now the island protector.  Didn't you see Ben's whole "keeping people away from the island was Jacob's style, it's up to you to create your own style (or perhaps make your own kind of music?)" speech?

The last scene...the funeral...they're all dead.  Everybody dies.

[HudsonHawk]

Or not.  That's kind of what was meant by "there is no now here." Today in 2010, Hurley and Ben could very much still be on the island.

They're all dead.  The last scene was their own collective funeral.  Everybody dies, including Hurley. 

[Bench]

No, he's dead. Ben alluded to this saying 'he was a good number 1...'

Well, he's dead in the sense that everybody's dead eventually, which is the temporal context in which that conversation took place.  On the island, after the Ajira flight took off, both Hurley and Ben were still alive.  The "good number 2/good number 1" speech occurred after the two of them had operated the island together.

[BizidyDizidy]

When did that happen?  Jack saved the island after MiB was killed.  Hurley is now the island protector.  Didn't you see Ben's whole "keeping people away from the island was Jacob's style, it's up to you to create your own style (or perhaps make your own kind of music?)" speech?

Everyone at the church was dead. They could've died at any time (I presume Hurley and Ben lived a long time on the island based on their conversation; maybe as long as Jacob and MIB). Kate appears to have lived a while after the island at the least ("I've missed you so much").  

[Andyzipp]

No, he's dead. Ben alluded to this saying 'he was a good number 1...'

But is he dead 10 years from now, or a week after Jack died, or some other time?  We don't know.  The purgatory was reality at a point in time created by all of them to find on another.

[Bench]

They're all dead.  The last scene was their own collective funeral.  Everybody dies, including Hurley. 

Right, but WHEN was the last scene?  That's what you don't seem to get.

[Andyzipp]

They're all dead.  The last scene was their own collective funeral.  Everybody dies, including Hurley. 

But you have no idea when that takes place, relative to time on the island, or time period.

[HudsonHawk]

Other than latitude/longitude, what type of explanation are you looking for?

Why the island has magical properties.  The nature of those magical properties.  Where the island came from.  What happened to it. 

[HudsonHawk]

Right, but WHEN was the last scene?  That's what you don't seem to get.

I get that.  But that's irrelvant.  Hurley's dead.  He's not protecting the island.  Does it still need protecting?  Who's doing it?  That's what you don't seem to get.

[HudsonHawk]

But you have no idea when that takes place, relative to time on the island, or time period.

That's irrelevant.  What about the island?

[homer]

Well, he's dead in the sense that everybody's dead eventually, which is the temporal context in which that conversation took place.  On the island, after the Ajira flight took off, both Hurley and Ben were still alive.  The "good number 2/good number 1" speech occurred after the two of them had operated the island together.

But is he dead 10 years from now, or a week after Jack died, or some other time?  We don't know.  The purgatory was reality at a point in time created by all of them to find on another.

Agreed.

I also wish they would have resolved more issues with the island, the original others, the new others, etc., but over the course of the show instead of the last several episodes.

[Limey]

Dostoevsky.

Gesundheit.

[BizidyDizidy]

Other than latitude/longitude, what type of explanation are you looking for?

I think it's silly to pretend that there aren't unanswered questions - just off the top of my head I could list a ton:

1) What is the light in the middle of the island
2) What was all that time travel about
3) What happened when the bomb went off (and relatedly, why did Juliette say "It worked").
4) Why did the characters have special abilities (Hurley seeing the dead, Miles talking to the dead, Desmond electromagnetism, etc.)
5) Why couldn't MIB leave the island and what would've happened if he dead

and so on, and so on.

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

[Andyzipp]

That's irrelevant.  What about the island?

It's only irrelevant if you were more invested in the island than you were characters. Which apparently you were.

[HudsonHawk]

It's only irrelevant if you were more invested in the island than you were characters. Which apparently you were.

The island WAS a character...the central character to the story.  Everyone else was a supporting character.  The island was the reason there was a story.

[HudsonHawk]

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

I'm fine with leaving unanswered questions, as long as you tell me what happens to the protagonist.

[homer]

I think it's silly to pretend that there aren't unanswered questions - just off the top of my head I could list a ton:

1) What is the light in the middle of the island
2) What was all that time travel about
3) What happened when the bomb went off (and relatedly, why did Juliette say "It worked").
4) Why did the characters have special abilities (Hurley seeing the dead, Miles talking to the dead, Desmond electromagnetism, etc.)
5) Why couldn't MIB leave the island and what would've happened if he dead

and so on, and so on.

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

Did they ever explain the inherent danger in getting pregnant on the island?

[Limey]

And that's pretty much what Darlton have been saying since the beginning of the show, that it's a character drama, and the story was how these people are connected to one another. 

Wait...Dalton?

[Andyzipp]

I think it's silly to pretend that there aren't unanswered questions - just off the top of my head I could list a ton:

1) What is the light in the middle of the island
2) What was all that time travel about
3) What happened when the bomb went off (and relatedly, why did Juliette say "It worked").
4) Why did the characters have special abilities (Hurley seeing the dead, Miles talking to the dead, Desmond electromagnetism, etc.)
5) Why couldn't MIB leave the island and what would've happened if he dead

and so on, and so on.

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

I don't think Bench (or anyone) is trying to claim that everything (or anything, really) was answered about the island, just that ultimately, it didn't matter.

But as for Juliet, the mumbling when she died about it working was the same thing she was saying to Sawyer last night when they found each other.  She saw them getting back together at the time of her death.

And beyond the how the time travel was possible, it happened because Ben dislodged the frozen polar bear wheel.  It stopped when Locke put it back where it was supposed to be.

[Andyzipp]

The island WAS a character...the central character to the story.  Everyone else was a supporting character.  The island was the reason there was a story.

You keep saying that.  The writers think differently, obviously.  You've inferred that they're lazy, stupid and/or dishonest because of it.

[Ebby Calvin]

...it happened because Ben dislodged the frozen polar bear wheel.

Ok, now you're just making stuff up.

I guess I'm glad I never watched the show.

[subnuclear]

What did the Dharma Initiative want with Walt?

Why was Libby shown, after she died but before season six, as a patient in Hurley's clinic?  

[Andyzipp]

Ok, now you're just making stuff up.

I guess I'm glad I never watched the show.

I'm not.  Would it help to know that it was a nearly 2000-year old frozen polar bear wheel?

[Waldo]

Did they at least say whether or not Tony Soprano is dead?

[BizidyDizidy]

What did the Dharma Initiative want with Walt?

Why was Libby shown, after she died but before season six, as a patient in Hurley's clinic?  

Wasn't that only in flashbacks?

[Andyzipp]

What did the Dharma Initiative want with Walt?

Why was Libby shown, after she died but before season six, as a patient in Hurley's clinic?  

The Dharma folks had been killed in the Purge by that point.  

The Others took Walt.  Because he was special.  And no, they never laid out why.

They wanted Claire/Aaron to try and study if there was any thing they could glean from his birth to help with the whole women die giving birth thing.

And Libby had a break-down after her husband died. She also gave a the Elizabeth to Desmond.

[Limey]

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

See Matrix, The.

[Alkie]

Ok, now you're just making stuff up.

I guess I'm glad I never watched the show.

I'm so glad someone else posted this first.  I've never watched a second of this show, but I've read this entire thread waiting for the people who claim to have been following it to say they're making the entire thing up because clearly this was the most fucking bizarre shit ever put on television.  The Man In Black?   The polar bear wheel?   The bomb?   And you're angry because they won't tell you why the island has magical powers?

[Alkie]

Dostoevsky.

Cliffs.

[BizidyDizidy]

I'm fine with leaving unanswered questions, as long as you tell me what happens to the protagonist.

I don't know if this line of reasoning makes sense. The whole final episode was about your protagonist getting saved and put in the hands of a new protector. That's what happened to it. It's like complaining that at the end of Home Alone they didn't give the rest of macaulay culkin's life story.

[HudsonHawk]

You keep saying that.  The writers think differently, obviously.  You've inferred that they're lazy, stupid and/or dishonest because of it.

I've not said any of that.  I said they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know how to write themselves out of it.

[HudsonHawk]

I don't know if this line of reasoning makes sense. The whole final episode was about your protagonist getting saved and put in the hands of a new protector. That's what happened to it. It's like complaining that at the end of Home Alone they didn't give the rest of macaulay culkin's life story.

No it's not.  It's nothing like that.  That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. 

[Ebby Calvin]

It's like complaining that at the end of Home Alone they didn't give the rest of macaulay culkin's life story.

Michael Jackson was unavailable.

[BizidyDizidy]

No it's not.  It's nothing like that.  That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. 

What do you want to know about what "happened" to the island?

[Andyzipp]

I've not said any of that.  I said they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know how to write themselves out of it.

But you do get that the corner is based on your perception of what the story should have been, yes?

[HudsonHawk]

What do you want to know about what "happened" to the island?

I want to know WHY the island is the way it is.  If I'm watching Home Alone, and they show me various clips of the kid running around the house and then cut to the end when his parents come home, without any explanation as to *how* he got left home alone, what happened to him while he was home alone, and *how* his parents came to know they left him alone and got back to him, that movie would have sucked pretty fucking hard.

[HudsonHawk]

But you do get that the corner is based on your perception of what the story should have been, yes?

No, it's based on the story they started telling me in Season 1. 

[subnuclear]

The Dharma folks had been killed in the Purge by that point.  

Doh.  

And Libby had a break-down after her husband died. She also gave a the Elizabeth to Desmond.

Ok.  I imagined a much more interesting plot line, but that's clear now.

I think the show was about how people react to mystery and how their various philosophies adjusts their actions.  So while "the show was about the characters" the island was the key device in showing sides of them that wouldn't of been shown in a hospital or law firm or whatever.  

[Bench]

I think it's silly to pretend that there aren't unanswered questions - just off the top of my head I could list a ton:

1) What is the light in the middle of the island
2) What was all that time travel about
3) What happened when the bomb went off (and relatedly, why did Juliette say "It worked").
4) Why did the characters have special abilities (Hurley seeing the dead, Miles talking to the dead, Desmond electromagnetism, etc.)
5) Why couldn't MIB leave the island and what would've happened if he dead

and so on, and so on.

I think the real question is whether some mumbo-jumbo explanation would have been more enjoyable than leaving questions unanswered.

Right, but in the words of CreepyMom, those answers will only yield more questions.

Is is is, is good enough for me. 

[Bench]

The Others took Walt.  Because he was special.  And no, they never laid out why.

.

Or, even more mundane, the Others took Walt in order to get leverage on Michael to set up the situation where Jack would agree to operate on Ben's spine.  That's a fairly straightforward explanation, which was given at the time.

As for Walt being "special," well, sure.  There's plenty of "special" people on the show.  I'm sure they had grander plans for Walt at the beginning of the story, but a long-term serial narrative is an organic thing that changes and develops as it grows.

[Bench]

Did they ever explain the inherent danger in getting pregnant on the island?

I think that gets explained in the Island Protector getting to make the "rules."  When Jacob and MiB were kids playing that black/white rock game, Jacob was upset that MiB was making the rules.  MiB told him one day Jacob could find a game and then make his own rules.  That is what happened when he became Island Protector.  As almost everyone else in show has daddy issues, Jacob obviously has mommy issues.  Coupled with the fact that the DI and post-purge others may have been disappointing him, making the island infertile is classic old testament reaction.

Jack changed the rules during his brief interim leadership, and then Hurley fashioned his own rules.  Frankly, I like the thought of Hurley creating the sideways world as a place for his friends to be happy and connect with eachother, just like when he builds the golf course or shambala's the hippie van.  

[Andyzipp]

Or, even more mundane, the Others took Walt in order to get leverage on Michael to set up the situation where Jack would agree to operate on Ben's spine.  That's a fairly straightforward explanation, which was given at the time.

As for Walt being "special," well, sure.  There's plenty of "special" people on the show.  I'm sure they had grander plans for Walt at the beginning of the story, but a long-term serial narrative is an organic thing that changes and develops as it grows.

One of the interesting reveals from last season for me was that Ben had never spoken to Jacob (or vice versa).  So the "lists" that drove a lot of the first couple of seasons were likely generated by Ben based on the intel that Mikhail was able to get for him.

To bring that back to Walt, despite the idea that we knew he was special though flashbacks, was that the explanation that he was used as leverage is the most likely.

[HudsonHawk]

Frankly, I like the thought of Hurley creating the sideways world as a place for his friends to be happy and connect with eachother, just like when he builds the golf course or shambala's the hippie van.  

Hurley didn't create the sideways world.  The sideways world was the purgatory, if you want to call it , where they all met up after they all died, Hurley included.

As for Walt...the best explanation is that the actor who played him got older and they couldn't figure out how to make his character fit in the storyline, where it was supposed to be only a matter of weeks.  Which just drives home my point that the producers really didn't know where they were going when they started.  Just another example of where they couldn't figure out how to resolve something so they just left the storyline with no explanation.

[Bench]

But as for Juliet, the mumbling when she died about it working was the same thing she was saying to Sawyer last night when they found each other.  She saw them getting back together at the time of her death.

Great catch.  I totally didn't put that together last night.  I got the coffee/going dutch thing, but I would never have guessed that "it worked" at the time Juliet lay dying would refer to a candy machine.  

[Bench]

Hurley didn't create the sideways world.  The sideways world was the purgatory, if you want to call it , where they all met up after they all died, Hurley included.

I'm not married to the notion, but I think it's a nice idea to ponder. 

As for Walt...the best explanation is that the actor who played him got older and they couldn't figure out how to make his character fit in the storyline, where it was supposed to be only a matter of weeks.  Which just drives home my point that the producers really didn't know where they were going when they started.  Just another example of where they couldn't figure out how to resolve something so they just left the storyline with no explanation.

I don't understand why this bothers you so much.  The show was on from 2003 to 2010 on ever-unpredictable network television.  Do you really expect them to begin the show with a Master Plan That Shall Be Forever Followed?  Under that rationale, Ben would have been a throw-away three episode character.  Improvisation is necessary.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm not married to the notion, but I think it's a nice idea to ponder. 

I don't understand why this bothers you so much.  The show was on from 2003 to 2010 on ever-unpredictable network television.  Do you really expect them to begin the show with a Master Plan That Shall Be Forever Followed?  Under that rationale, Ben would have been a throw-away three episode character.  Improvisation is necessary.

I'm fine with improvising.  But wrap up the story you started, the story you've been telling from 2003-2009...not a new story you started just this season.  Someone on one of the Lost blogs had it right...if Lost were a novel, it'd be in the $0.99 bin at Half-Price Books.

[Ron Brand]

I'm SO glad I never watched this show.

[homer]

One of the interesting reveals from last season for me was that Ben had never spoken to Jacob (or vice versa).  So the "lists" that drove a lot of the first couple of seasons were likely generated by Ben based on the intel that Mikhail was able to get for him.

Ben was an outsider and didn't belong anywhere. He didn't belong on the island and spent every moment manipulating it to his will in order to make his place, and sacrificed everything in his life to that end. Hurley finally gave him something to belong to and he finally got a point where he could potentially move forward (i.e. get have a family with Rousseau, etc.) but he needed more time in Purgatory. Locke forgiving him was only a small part of him moving forward.

[roadrunner]

I loved every minute of it.

Then again, I've never been super insane about needing answers to the mysteries.  That was just another part of the story.  I have loved this show because of the characters, their interactions, and the storytelling.  The finale nailed all three of those.

I understand people's frustrations, but they were just different fans of the show, and unfortunately the writers didn't cater to them (like they've been saying all along).

[Bench]

I loved every minute of it.

Then again, I've never been super insane about needing answers to the mysteries.  That was just another part of the story.  I have loved this show because of the characters, their interactions, and the storytelling.  The finale nailed all three of those.

I understand people's frustrations, but they were just different fans of the show, and unfortunately the writers didn't cater to them (like they've been saying all along).

I'm with you 100%. 

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I'm with you 100%. 

I'm 99% there.  The friggin' Target commercials w/ the smoke monster were highly annoying.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm 99% there.  The friggin' Target commercials w/ the smoke monster were highly annoying.

I got three words for you...D-V-R.

[Limey]

I'm 99% there.  The friggin' Target commercials w/ the smoke monster were highly annoying.

In the 2 1/2 men hour long show, there were 45 minutes of commercials.  Towards the denouement, the commercial segments were noticeably longer than the show segments.

[Andyzipp]

In the 2 1/2 men hour long show, there were 45 minutes of commercials.  Towards the denouement, the commercial segments were noticeably longer than the show segments.

We started watching (time shifted) at 8:45.  With the predictable kids not staying in bed issues, we didn't watch a commercial.

[Limey]

We started watching (time shifted) at 8:45.  With the predictable kids not staying in bed issues, we didn't watch a commercial.

I only watched because I'd been hungover on my couch all day - and had run out of DVRd material.  Watching TV live sucks.

[Lurch]

had run out of DVRd material

How is this even possible?!  I quit trying to keep up with my DVR years ago

[MusicMan]

We started watching (time shifted)   

How else would you watch Lost?

[chuck]

I'm SO glad I never watched this show.

Dude. When the complete DVD comes out you, me, Alkie and Ebby'll get together and spend a weekend watching the whole thing and knock back a couple of co-colas. Whaddaya say?

[Limey]

How is this even possible?!  I quit trying to keep up with my DVR years ago

I clean out stuff that's a few days old - especially if it's topical.

[Ebby Calvin]

Dude. When the complete DVD comes out you, me, Alkie and Ebby'll get together and spend a weekend watching the whole thing and knock back a couple of co-colas. Whaddaya say?

I'm in.  Alkie gets to wear the polar bear costume.

[Tralfaz]

I thought the finale was pretty good, but the back and forth of this thread is even better.  Any thoughts/theories on why Mr Echo was a no show on the finale?  .

..besides they threw the character away.

[Bench]

I thought the finale was pretty good, but the back and forth of this thread is even better.  Any thoughts/theories on why Mr Echo was a no show on the finale?  .

..besides they threw the character away.

They sent Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje an invitation but the post office returned it on the grounds that the name is gibberish.

Seriously, though, they asked him to come back for it and he declined.

[Clark in Denver]

He left the show because he hated living and working in Hawaii.  Go figure. 

[Bench]

The DVD Set will feature a 12-14 minute "epilogue" showing Hurley and Ben running the island.

The Link

"For those people that want to pony up and buy the complete 'Lost' series, there is a bonus feature — you could call it an epilogue, a lost scene," Emerson said during an appearance on G4's "Attack of the Show." "It's a lot, 12 or 14 minutes, that opens a window on that gap of unknown time between Hurley becoming number one and the end of the series."

[Astroholic]

The DVD Set will feature a 12-14 minute "epilogue" showing Hurley and Ben running the island.

The Link

"For those people that want to pony up and buy the complete 'Lost' series, there is a bonus feature — you could call it an epilogue, a lost scene," Emerson said during an appearance on G4's "Attack of the Show." "It's a lot, 12 or 14 minutes, that opens a window on that gap of unknown time between Hurley becoming number one and the end of the series."

Which sets itself up nicely for the new show "Found".

[Bench]

Which sets itself up nicely for the new show "Found".

Of all the various spin-off suggestions, that sounds like the worst one.

[MusicMan]

I've all the various spin-off suggestions, that sounds like the worst one.

I liked the suggestion of Swayer and Mr. Eko as the new Crockett and Tubbs.

[Alkie]

Paypal me $50 and I'll send you a 12 minute clip of me re-enacting one of the possible endings of this show, including:

• Where the island got its powers
• What happened to Johnny Cash
• Who that other bitch was and why she was so emotional
• The three characters you didn't know about, but that would have made a shitload of sense
• Where the island is now
• Who is now in charge of protecting the gummi bear tadpole wagon wheel refrigerator
• Where the island got its powers

[Bench]

I liked the suggestion of Swayer and Mr. Eko as the new Crockett and Tubbs.

I liked the suggestion that Kate and Claire get married and raise Aaron together.  Kind of a My Two Dads meets Gilmore Girls but with more making out.

[BUWebguy]

I liked the suggestion of Swayer and Mr. Eko as the new Crockett and Tubbs.

Along the same lines -- Sawyer/Miles in a buddy cop comedy.

[Astroholic]

I've all the various spin-off suggestions, that sounds like the worst one.

Of got no idea what you are trying to say.

[Bench]

Of got no idea what you are trying to say.

With the appropriate accent, they're homonyms.

[Alkie]

With the appropriate accent, they're homonyms.

Right, so all the half retarded Swedish dwarves in here knew exactly what you meant in their mind's ear.

[Bench]

Right, so all the half retarded Swedish dwarves in here knew exactly what you meant in their mind's ear.

I read that in Hungarian.

[OregonStrosFan]

I read that it Hungarian.

??  Jogot, hogy minden fél retardált svéd törpe itt pontosan tudta, mit jelent az, hogy szem előtt fülébe.

[WakePhil]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8670609/alan-sepinwall-origins-lost

Interesting background on how the show was created. I enjoy Alan's writing on TV and will buy this book at some point. I suspect it will only reinforce both sides' views about the good/bad of the show, but interesting nonetheless.

[HudsonHawk]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8670609/alan-sepinwall-origins-lost

Interesting background on how the show was created. I enjoy Alan's writing on TV and will buy this book at some point. I suspect it will only reinforce both sides' views about the good/bad of the show, but interesting nonetheless.

It just reinforces my thoughts that they had a fabulous show with absolutely no idea where to take it. 

[Bench]

It just reinforces my thoughts that they had a fabulous show with absolutely no idea where to take it. 

I don't think "absolutely no idea" is accurate.  It just had to develop, often by the seat-of-its-pants, as it went along given various internal and external forces that occurred over time.  It's pretty clear they had the basic themes of good versus evil, redemption, destiny vs. individualism, etc... and who the characters were going to be and how they would fit in from early on in the first season.  I've never understood the criticism that every bit of plot should have been comprehensively mapped out before the pilot was in the can.  Having to change and invent new directions, and often drop other ones altogether (Walt is special!  Who was shooting from the other outrigger?!) is the nature of any serialized story telling, even harkening back to Tolstoy and Dickens.  Even more so given the unpredictability of TV show renewals.     

That being said, I too very much enjoy Sepinwall's writing, and will probably buy the book as well even if it's just (1) to support a writer who has given me years of free entertainment and (2) the sections on Deadwood, the Wire and Buffy.   

[roadrunner]

I don't think "absolutely no idea" is accurate.  It just had to develop, often by the seat-of-its-pants, as it went along given various internal and external forces that occurred over time.  It's pretty clear they had the basic themes of good versus evil, redemption, destiny vs. individualism, etc... and who the characters were going to be and how they would fit in from early on in the first season.  I've never understood the criticism that every bit of plot should have been comprehensively mapped out before the pilot was in the can.  Having to change and invent new directions, and often drop other ones altogether (Walt is special!  Who was shooting from the other outrigger?!) is the nature of any serialized story telling, even harkening back to Tolstoy and Dickens.  Even more so given the unpredictability of TV show renewals.     

That being said, I too very much enjoy Sepinwall's writing, and will probably buy the book as well even if it's just (1) to support a writer who has given me years of free entertainment and (2) the sections on Deadwood, the Wire and Buffy.   

Agreed.

I don't care if they didn't have it all mapped out from day 1.  It all worked out well enough for me and it was an incredible tv show to watch.

[subnuclear]

I can't think of any book or movie I've ever read where MAJOR plot lines were just dropped as much as Lost. Yes, I've read 19 century serial novels and they aren't as bad (at least the famous ones). Comic books which are created in serial with much less resources have much better continuity.

[HudsonHawk]

Agreed.

I don't care if they didn't have it all mapped out from day 1.  It all worked out well enough for me and it was an incredible tv show to watch.

It didn't work for me. After the first season, it was stream of conscious gibberish and ultimately just turned to mush. It's a shame because had the makings of the greatest network show of all time.

[roadrunner]

It didn't work for me. After the first season, it was stream of conscious gibberish and ultimately just turned to mush. It's a shame because had the makings of the greatest network show of all time.

See, I don't think Lost was made to be "the greatest network show of all time".  It was too ambitious.  What made a lot of people hate it (unanswered questions!!1) is part of what made people love it - the intrigue.

The only other show that I think executed characters as well as Lost is The Wire, which I think is the best show of all time.  I've argued in Lost's defense for years and understand the other side of it.  It's not perfect, but I can guarantee I will never have a viewing experience with any other show like I did with that one.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

Its easy for writers to set up an intriguing/mysterious story, but difficult to bring it to a satisfying closure.  The Lost writers were especially adept at the first part, not so much at the second. 

For me the show didn't take an unsatisfying turn until the very end, but I wasn't too dissatisfied since I figured the odds were low that the writers could pull it all together as spectacularly as we'd have liked.  I enjoyed each season, and looking back it was probably mostly because most of the characters and their back stories were compelling. 

[HudsonHawk]

See, I don't think Lost was made to be "the greatest network show of all time".  It was too ambitious. 

Whether that's what they set out to do or not, that's what they had.  I think once they realized what they had, they went "oh shit, what do we do now?"

[HudsonHawk]

Its easy for writers to set up an intriguing/mysterious story, but difficult to bring it to a satisfying closure.  The Lost writers were especially adept at the first part, not so much at the second. 

For me the show didn't take an unsatisfying turn until the very end, but I wasn't too dissatisfied since I figured the odds were low that the writers could pull it all together as spectacularly as we'd have liked.  I enjoyed each season, and looking back it was probably mostly because most of the characters and their back stories were compelling. 

I agree.  But I would have preferred a simpler storyline that wrapped up.  What made that show were the incredible writing and the characters and storylines from Season 1.  They could/should have simply continued with that and it would have been historic.

[Andyzipp]

Whether that's what they set out to do or not, that's what they had.  I think once they realized what they had, they went "oh shit, what do we do now?"

This kind of ignores the necessities of network television.  First season, you can go balls to the wall because you have no idea if you're going to be picked up beyond the original order (which these days is 11 episodes).  After you are picked up, and as wildly successful as Lost was, while you may know what the end is supposed to be, you have to fill in the story which anything that fits because you really have no idea how long you have to the tell the story.  While the art of the story is compelling, so is the billions of dollars in ad revenue you're now responsible for.

Lost certainly lost their way mid run (maybe third season, beginning of the fourth) but once they set a concrete end date for the show, the story telling, the story itself got a lot better. 

I still love the show, and still love the ending, but I get why people don't.

[Limey]

This kind of ignores the necessities of network television.  First season, you can go balls to the wall because you have no idea if you're going to be picked up beyond the original order (which these days is 11 episodes).  After you are picked up, and as wildly successful as Lost was, while you may know what the end is supposed to be, you have to fill in the story which anything that fits because you really have no idea how long you have to the tell the story.  While the art of the story is compelling, so is the billions of dollars in ad revenue you're now responsible for.

Lost certainly lost their way mid run (maybe third season, beginning of the fourth) but once they set a concrete end date for the show, the story telling, the story itself got a lot better. 

I still love the show, and still love the ending, but I get why people don't.

In this vein, I am gobsmacked about the job that the writers of "Revenge" - my current guilty pleasure show - are doing to backfill the story and loop in every character in ways you didn't see coming.  It's still cheesy as fuck (part of the charm, IMHO), but I am constantly amazed about the sheer volume of plot in this show.

[HudsonHawk]

This kind of ignores the necessities of network television. 

I'm not ignoring it, I recognize that's the way it is.  I just think they didn't deal with it very well.  A simpler, more cohesive, storyline would have not only been a better story, but would have been able to avoid much of the very problems associated with the inherent uncertainty.

[drew corleone]

Have y'all read Sepinwall's Grantland piece on it? Pretty good stuff. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8670609/alan-sepinwall-origins-lost

Also, Lindelhof spent a lot of time on LOST in a recent interview. Youtube is blocked here at work but I suspect if you'd like to spend a half-hour watching him discuss the criticisms and general post-mortem a few years after the fact then I would recommend it. I'm sure a Google search would turn it up within seconds.

Funny... this is the 3rd or 4th instance of LOST resurface that I've seen in the past week or two. I miss that show.

[HudsonHawk]

Have y'all read Sepinwall's Grantland piece on it? Pretty good stuff. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8670609/alan-sepinwall-origins-lost

No, but Sepinwall did a nice piece over at Grantland:  http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8670609/alan-sepinwall-origins-lost

[BizidyDizidy]

Kind of weird that people keep bringing up lost 2.5 years after it aired (even spookier, Sepinwall recently did a piece over on Grantland).

[Bench]

Kind of weird that people keep bringing up lost 2.5 years after it aired (even spookier, Sepinwall recently did a piece over on Grantland).

Is the Sepinwall thing over at Grantland worth reading?

[Bench]

I still love the show, and still love the ending, but I get why people don't.

It's pretty much breaks evenly along the lines of people who like the characters better and people who like the plot/mythology better. 

[drew corleone]

Shit... completely missed that on the other page. I think I skipped a page somewhere.

[NeilT]

Shit... completely missed that on the other page. I think I skipped a page somewhere.

That's exactly how I felt watching Lost.

[Bench]

That's exactly how I felt watching Lost.

Rimshot!

[austro]

That's exactly how I felt watching Lost.

Look at the title. How could you not see that coming?