Attn: Youth League Baseball Coaches of Past and Present

[MikeyBoy]

I'm seeking your feedback on the topic of base running. A little background; I coach my son's Pinto 8 coach pitch team and our division is in the middle of a league rule clusterfuck surounding base running, specifically, when and how to stop the lead runner. In the rule book for the league/division, the rule states that on balls hit to the outfield; once the infilder is in control of the ball, as long as he is in the infield, the play is dead and the runner has to go back to the base unless they are over half way to the next base, the umpire determines which base the runner is allowed, after calling the play dead. Basically, on any play, the base runner doesn't advance if an infielder is in control of the ball. This is the rule we played by last season in Pinto 7 and the rule we taught according to all the way up to our second game of Pinto 8, last Saturday.

On that day, the umpire states prior to the game that the lead runner will have to be stopped by the opposing team, that time will not be called until the baserunner is not advancing anymore. This created a track meet, as the majority of the coaches instructed the kids to run until they were put out or stopped by the base coaches. The third base coaches looked like windmills and the baserunning got away from good, sound baseball. The coaches were even sending kids on infield hits, just trying to entice a throw, knowing that 80% of the throw/catches wouldn't be made. Fast forward to our third game last night and the umpires go back to calling the play dead when an infielder is in control of the ball. However, the damage has been done, as the kids now think they have to make every throw to try and get the runners out, leading to lots of over throws and give away runs.

We now have a meeting scheduled between all 15 managers and a bunch of league officials that takes place tomorrow night. The league has to decide which direction to take and get all the umpires on the same page. I'm not really sure what the right decision is at this point, something in between would probably be best, but not sure how it can be written clearly in the rules.

My question to you is; how was this handled when you or your son/daughter was an eight year old?

[94CougarGrad]

In the rule book for the league/division, the rule states that on balls hit to the outfield; once the infilder is in control of the ball, as long as he is in the infield, the play is dead and the runner has to go back to the base unless they are over half way to the next base, the umpire determines which base the runner is allowed, after calling the play dead. Basically, on any play, the base runner doesn't advance if an infielder is in control of the ball.

This is the rule presently in place for 8U at our current league. At our league back in Houston, the ump called the play dead when the pitcher had the ball on the mound- not an infielder. That's actually the rule I prefer. The only track event we had in most games was the pitcher's race to the mound to keep the runner from getting over that halfway point to the next base.

From your description, it doesn't sound like the rule is written vaguely. I wonder if the umpire remembered the rules for that age level. Back at NASA Little League, we had quite a few rules re-clarified due to umpire mistakes or rogue attitudes.

[Duman]

Our rule was an infielder had to get the ball and hold it up in the infield.  Then it was the halfway line.  We then spent the next year teaching kids to get the ball to the pitcher instead of holding it up.

[Ron Brand]

Jesus Christ. When I played, you played baseball. The only thong you couldn't do was steal until the pitch crossed the plate. What the hell has happened?

[94CougarGrad]

The only thong you couldn't do

What kind of baseball league was this? 

[Andyzipp]

8 year olds play in Coach Pitch.

Play is dead when the umpire says the play is dead.  We teach them to get the ball to the infielder ahead of the first baserunner, "show" the ball in front of that base runner and wait for the ump.

[Taras Bulba]

What kind of baseball league was this? 

The Northwest NAMBLA.

[Ron Brand]

Damn. Outed by my weak Blackberry skills.

[94CougarGrad]

Damn. Outed by my weak Blackberry skills.

If it's any consolation, I agree with your first sentiment. We just played baseball.

[JimR]

I'm seeking your feedback on the topic of base running. A little background; I coach my son's Pinto 8 coach pitch team and our division is in the middle of a league rule clusterfuck surounding base running, specifically, when and how to stop the lead runner. In the rule book for the league/division, the rule states that on balls hit to the outfield; once the infilder is in control of the ball, as long as he is in the infield, the play is dead and the runner has to go back to the base unless they are over half way to the next base, the umpire determines which base the runner is allowed, after calling the play dead. Basically, on any play, the base runner doesn't advance if an infielder is in control of the ball. This is the rule we played by last season in Pinto 7 and the rule we taught according to all the way up to our second game of Pinto 8, last Saturday.

On that day, the umpire states prior to the game that the lead runner will have to be stopped by the opposing team, that time will not be called until the baserunner is not advancing anymore. This created a track meet, as the majority of the coaches instructed the kids to run until they were put out or stopped by the base coaches. The third base coaches looked like windmills and the baserunning got away from good, sound baseball. The coaches were even sending kids on infield hits, just trying to entice a throw, knowing that 80% of the throw/catches wouldn't be made. Fast forward to our third game last night and the umpires go back to calling the play dead when an infielder is in control of the ball. However, the damage has been done, as the kids now think they have to make every throw to try and get the runners out, leading to lots of over throws and give away runs.

We now have a meeting scheduled between all 15 managers and a bunch of league officials that takes place tomorrow night. The league has to decide which direction to take and get all the umpires on the same page. I'm not really sure what the right decision is at this point, something in between would probably be best, but not sure how it can be written clearly in the rules.

My question to you is; how was this handled when you or your son/daughter was an eight year old?

that is a chickenshit rule that rewards chickenshit coaches who will (literally) stop at nothing to win. there is nothing you can do to stop it effectively because throwing ahead of the runner works only if the fielder catches the ball. the first rule must be established by executive fiat or the classless win-crazy coaches will do just what they did.

[Jacksonian]

8U here is that play is stopped when an infielder controls the ball on the infield dirt.  Umpires do enforce the rule.

On a related matter, thanks to all for responding to my request for help coaching 8U for the first time, esp Mikey.  First game was Saturday.  We won 2-0.  Windy as all hell and the kids were miserable.  I had a hell of time throwing strikes as the ball was dancing all over the place.  Our kids made some nice plays defensively. 2 times with 2 outs and a runner on third we scooped a grounder and tagged the correct bag to end the inning.  I could not have been prouder at how well they hung in there with wind and dirt blowing in their faces and still managing to do some things on the field and still they said they had fun.

Side note.  The team we played was my son's team last year.  Their coach is a win first/ coaches kids first guy.  Only his kid plays SS, other coaches kids man the other infield positions.  He never changes that nor the batting order.  Before the game one of the kids new to that team was telling my son that his team was going to win and that my son's team were losers.  That was the only time my son has ever told me he really wanted to beat another team.  After the game my son tells me he doesn't care whether we win or lose the rest of the year.  We talked about talking the talk vs letting your play talk for you / good attitudes vs bad attitudes.  Great real life example.  I love baseball.

[Noe]

I instructed my coaches (third base to be exact) to "NOT" wave kids around the bases just because the other kids are fumbling the ball.  That was the first thing I did, the second thing I did was go tell the opposing team's head coach what I just told my base coach.  It was incredible how many opposing managers were 1) surprised at what I was doing and 2) appreciative of what I was doing and 3) decided to follow the same strategy.  We all agreed that at this age, we are trying to teach fundamentals of baseball, which is hitting, running and catching... not scoring.

Then both managers would go tell the umpire how *WE* wanted the game called, and some were swarmy and smug about it, but all did exactly as we requested.  There was only one manager who also had his son on the team (as did I) who refused to do what I was doing (which was entirely his choice to do so).  I was there to teach the game and have it be fun (first and foremost) for the kids.  The coach that refused would yell and scream at his kids for making mistakes, not running around the bases (instead, as most kids do, stop at a base and smile thinking they have accomplished something special!), etc.  His kids were more miserable doing as he was instructing (as the third base coach) except his own son, who followed his Dad's instruction lock-step and made sure if Daddy was happy, he was happy (it was the only way to get a high-five from this jerk).

I really didn't care what any rule book said, it was dumb in my view to even have a rule book.  I used games to extend the learning experience, not to make it about scoring and beating someone else.  Plenty of time for that later, when they're older and in leagues who care more about that sort of stuff.  I had kids graduate from my team to go on and be really good players for older leagues because they learned to catch, throw to the right base, listen to coaches (it is as important to hear a coach yell "STAY" as it is to hear him/her say "RUN! RUN! RUN!" while waving their arms like mad people), hit the baseball consistently, cheer for your teammates and those sort of things.

[Lurch]

I instructed my coaches (third base to be exact) to "NOT" wave kids around the bases just because the other kids are fumbling the ball.  That was the first thing I did, the second thing I did was go tell the opposing team's head coach what I just told my base coach.  It was incredible how many opposing managers were 1) surprised at what I was doing and 2) appreciative of what I was doing and 3) decided to follow the same strategy.  We all agreed that at this age, we are trying to teach fundamentals of baseball, which is hitting, running and catching... not scoring.

Then both managers would go tell the umpire how *WE* wanted the game called, and some were swarmy and smug about it, but all did exactly as we requested.  There was only one manager who also had his son on the team (as did I) who refused to do what I was doing (which was entirely his choice to do so).  I was there to teach the game and have it be fun (first and foremost) for the kids.  The coach that refused would yell and scream at his kids for making mistakes, not running around the bases (instead, as most kids do, stop at a base and smile thinking they have accomplished something special!), etc.  His kids were more miserable doing as he was instructing (as the third base coach) except his own son, who followed his Dad's instruction lock-step and made sure if Daddy was happy, he was happy (it was the only way to get a high-five from this jerk).

I really didn't care what any rule book said, it was dumb in my view to even have a rule book.  I used games to extend the learning experience, not to make it about scoring and beating someone else.  Plenty of time for that later, when they're older and in leagues who care more about that sort of stuff.  I had kids graduate from my team to go on and be really good players for older leagues because they learned to catch, throw to the right base, listen to coaches (it is as important to hear a coach yell "STAY" as it is to hear him/her say "RUN! RUN! RUN!" while waving their arms like mad people), hit the baseball consistently, cheer for your teammates and those sort of things.

Well done.

[Outlawscotty]

It was incredible how many opposing managers were 1) surprised at what I was doing and 2) appreciative of what I was doing and 3) decided to follow the same strategy. 

I'll tell you what is incredible - how many opposing managers didn't care.

[Noe]

I'll tell you what is incredible - how many opposing managers didn't care.

What managers of 8 year old teams really care about is how to keep parents from going crazy on you.  I mean they may want to scream things at you or provide unsolicited opinions very strongly and even walk into your dugout uninvited to ask for a private meeting right then and there during the third inning.  That is why I would talk to managers with an understanding and not a disdain nor hard feelings.  I know what they were going through and I think most of the time they saw the suggestion as a good way to 1) tell parents to sit down and shut up (politely) and 2) really get back to teach baseball instead of worrying about scoring runs and "beating" the other team (which is what parents actually think is the object of the game at this stage).  I don't disagree with playing to win, that is a part of baseball.

But 8 year olds?  We dress them up as little major leaguers and scream at them like they're MoBerg standing there with the bat on his shoulder.  Something just doesn't seem right to me at that point.  And many, many, many people, both parents I've had in my teams and opposing team parents agreed that they just want their children to have fun.  It's always the one parent that everyone fears or hate that makes it very much an angst situation.  I guess that is why rules are in place to put parameters around those parents.  But if you can accomplish the same thing as a manager in agreement with the opposing manager, you can even do better than a rule book.

IMHO of course.

[JimR]

my rule was that parents could not even come to the dugout during a game, much less walk into it. i only had one parent try me on the "approach" rule, and she only did it once.

[MRaup]

my rule was that parents could not even come to the dugout during a game, much less walk into it. i only had one parent try me on the "approach" rule, and she only did it once.

After which you told the media it would "never happen again!"?

[MusicMan]

i only had one parent try me on the "approach" rule, and she only did it once.

My mother hung me on a hook once.

Once.

[94CougarGrad]

My mother hung me on a hook once.

Once.

She wiolated your farging rights.

[robinson]

We now have a meeting scheduled between all 15 managers and a bunch of league officials that takes place tomorrow night. The league has to decide which direction to take and get all the umpires on the same page. I'm not really sure what the right decision is at this point, something in between would probably be best, but not sure how it can be written clearly in the rules.

My question to you is; how was this handled when you or your son/daughter was an eight year old?

My sons team experienced a coach who was all about aggressive running - the defense would request time, the ump would grant time, and the coach would continue to yell at his players to run and then the coach would expect his runners to be granted the next base.

Our league rules state "when the ball is in the possession of an infielder and, in the umpires judgement, all play on the runner or runners has ceased, the umpire shall call Time"   meaning it is the umps responsibility to call time, but all play on the runner sure seems subjective.

What exactly did your league come up with?

[MikeyBoy]

What exactly did your league come up with?

The league basically put it back on the coaches and umpires, which is what I didn't want. It was decided that the ball was dead when the infielder gained control of the throw from the outfield and, this is the subjective part, "addressed" the runner. Meaning, the infielder had to basically look the runners direction and appear to be acknowledging his existence. The next subjective part of this scenario is once the infielder addressed the runner and the umpire calls the ball dead, what does the umpire allow the base runner to do? The suggestion from the division director was as long as the runner was advancing to the base then he gets to take the base after the ball is dead, but fortunately the umpires went more with the halfway rule. The problem was there were still some coaches that looked like windmills at first and third and sent the kids no matter what, forcing the opposing team to either make a play or the umpires stop the runner, but they never stopped the runner on their own. Now, if the infielder gained control of the ball and decided to throw the ball to make a play on the runner and over threw the base, then the runner was free to continue advancing until the next infielder gained control of the ball and addressed the runner. Overall, the rule worked fine as long as the coaches advanced the runners when appropriate according to basic baseball logic and the umpires were consistent. This happened most of the time, with a handful of jackass coaches being the exception.

[robinson]

Overall, the rule worked fine as long as the coaches advanced the runners when appropriate according to basic baseball logic and the umpires were consistent. This happened most of the time, with a handful of jackass coaches being the exception.

The coach we went up against last night fit the jackass role well.  IMO the over aggressive baserunning is not in the spirit of the game - certainly not for 8 yr olds who are supposed to be learning fundamentals and sportsmanship.     Coaches like that have no business being coaches - you shouldn't be instructing players to 'expect' that plays will not to be made - having runners come off the base and dance around trying to provoke a bad throw is ridiculous.   Best part of the game was the outcome - we won, no doubt Mr Gung-ho coach prolly went home and cried that the umps screwed his team out of a win by stopping his runners after time was declared.

[Jacksonian]

The coach we went up against last night fit the jackass role well.  IMO the over aggressive baserunning is not in the spirit of the game - certainly not for 8 yr olds who are supposed to be learning fundamentals and sportsmanship.     Coaches like that have no business being coaches - you shouldn't be instructing players to 'expect' that plays will not to be made - having runners come off the base and dance around trying to provoke a bad throw is ridiculous.   Best part of the game was the outcome - we won, no doubt Mr Gung-ho coach prolly went home and cried that the umps screwed his team out of a win by stopping his runners after time was declared.

We had coaches like that.  They were using 8U as a tryout for their 10 and up select team.

[JimR]

The coach we went up against last night fit the jackass role well.  IMO the over aggressive baserunning is not in the spirit of the game - certainly not for 8 yr olds who are supposed to be learning fundamentals and sportsmanship.     Coaches like that have no business being coaches - you shouldn't be instructing players to 'expect' that plays will not to be made - having runners come off the base and dance around trying to provoke a bad throw is ridiculous.   Best part of the game was the outcome - we won, no doubt Mr Gung-ho coach prolly went home and cried that the umps screwed his team out of a win by stopping his runners after time was declared.

i coached against jerks like that in coach-pitch. pathetic.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

i coached against jerks like that in coach-pitch. pathetic.

Try T-Ball.  But in his defense, he really wanted to win the division so he could pick the <wait for it....> T-Ball ALL STAR team.  It gets better.  Two teams were picked, so they could represent our area in the T-Ball ALL STAR tournaments and fill out the brackets.  Of course, that tournament didn't exist originally.  They set it up so they could play more games.  As I understand it, half the kids hated baseball by the time that finished.  I give the guy a big thumbs up every time I see him at church.  What a douche.