Author Topic: New closer for the Good Guys.  (Read 17510 times)

Jose Cruz III

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New closer for the Good Guys.
« on: December 09, 2009, 04:31:35 pm »
Unga bungaed by the BBGs.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 04:39:12 pm »
Cabrera can close?
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Limey

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 04:39:37 pm »
Now waiting for the other shoe to drop...what was given up in trade.
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Jose Cruz III

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 04:45:12 pm »
Now waiting for the other shoe to drop...what was given up in trade.
Couldn't be much.
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OregonStrosFan

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 04:46:24 pm »
Shouldn't be much.

FIFY.

FWIW, Astros seem to still be pursuing Soriano from ATL.
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 04:47:39 pm »
I'm all for a guy with a .309 ERA.

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David in Jackson

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 04:51:22 pm »
We're about to see what happens when a bad team loses some of its best players.  Not that I disagree with that.

Did someone finally say "rebuild"?
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Ron Brand

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:02 pm »
We're about to see what happens when a bad team loses some of its best players.  Not that I disagree with that.

Did someone finally say "rebuild"?

That's not "rebuilding." That's having your players move on because of your economic hardship. I know the brain trust is still focused on putting a competitive team out there in these difficult times.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 04:58:01 pm »
Nice piece on Lindstrom over at Baseball Daily Digest (h/t to Astros County)

Excerpt: Lindstrom has two main pitches in his arsenal: a four-seam fastball that averages 96 MPH and an 82 MPH slider. He seems like a natural fit at the back end of any bullpen, but his poor showing in ‘09 should cause hesitation in awarding him high-leverage innings.
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Ron Brand

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:24 pm »
That's a pretty hopeful article, maybe he'll pan out. The defense should be better at SS, anyway.
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ferret

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:58 pm »
Couldn't be much.


Checking the Marlins info sources I found nothing listed.  They don't seem excited but they likely wouldn't know who the minor leaguer was anyway.

Noe

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 05:46:43 pm »
Checking the Marlins info sources I found nothing listed.  They don't seem excited but they likely wouldn't know who the minor leaguer was anyway.

RHP Bono and SS Bryan

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 05:49:11 pm »
RHP Bono and SS Bryan

Works for me.

Who are those guys?
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Noe

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 06:05:53 pm »
Works for me.

Who are those guys?

A Ball players.  This is really about the Marlins getting rid of a guy who is iffy on the injury front, stands to make 1.5 million or so next year.  Houston can take a flyer on the guy, the Marlins don't want to since they're going with Nunez as their closer.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 06:09:59 pm »
A Ball players.  This is really about the Marlins getting rid of a guy who is iffy on the injury front, stands to make 1.5 million or so next year.  Houston can take a flyer on the guy, the Marlins don't want to since they're going with Nunez as their closer.

Sounds like a good swap for both teams.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 06:22:10 pm »
sigh. i want something big and wonderful to happen. an a plus plus ball player to fall right in draytons lap. i mean tis the season of giving. let him give some money.
if the astros put a sub crappy organization on the field does anyone think that attendance will go back to the dome days of 2000 or so and how would that affect things
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 06:30:24 pm »
RHP Bono and SS Bryan

Footer's article says plus a PTBNL. She notes that Stark says the PTBNL will be the Astros 1st pick in the Rule 5 draft on Thursday.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 06:32:35 pm »
Sounds like a good swap for both teams.

Actually, it's pretty close to a win-win for both teams.  Ed Wade is a well known bullpen tinkerer.  Last year, he made changes with guys like Fulchino and Arias as well as bring up Gervacio who all performed well.  He also acquired Villareal and Hawkins hoping to restock the pen.  Some moves worked, others not so much.  The bottomline on Lindstrom is that he throws hard and that is a good thing.  The bad thing is control and injury, but if you're going to replace a LaTroy Hawkins and Doug Brocail, Matt Linstrom is exactly the type of pitcher you want.  Wade has more work to do, I really don't see how Lindstrom is it, or even the default closer per se (although he may work out to be just that).

For now, you have to think that guys who may close are Chris Sampson or someone else while you stockpile arms for the crucial 7th-8th inning work.  One or two more power arms might make things very interesting for Houston and new pitching coach Arnsberger (sp?)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:35:11 pm by Noe in Austin »

Noe

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 06:34:03 pm »
Footer's article says plus a PTBNL. She notes that Stark says the PTBNL will be the Astros 1st pick in the Rule 5 draft on Thursday.

Yup, Houston will draft whoever Florida wants and ship him out.  It will be incumbent on Florida to keep that guy on the 25 man roster at that point.

Noe

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 06:36:56 pm »
sigh. i want something big and wonderful to happen. an a plus plus ball player to fall right in draytons lap. i mean tis the season of giving. let him give some money.
if the astros put a sub crappy organization on the field does anyone think that attendance will go back to the dome days of 2000 or so and how would that affect things

I've read this several times to try and decipher it... and I failed miserably.  Sorry, don't know how to provide an opinion to your question other than to say... huh?

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 06:41:36 pm »
I've read this several times to try and decipher it... and I failed miserably.  Sorry, don't know how to provide an opinion to your question other than to say... huh?


I think it's roughly "why won't Santa magically turn the Astros into the 27 Yankees?"
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OregonStrosFan

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 06:42:39 pm »
Tweet from Ben Badler at BA: "Neither Robert Bono nor Luis Bryan, the two guys the Marlins got from Houston for Lindstrom, would have made the Astros top 30"
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

strosrays

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 07:36:35 pm »

I think it's roughly "why won't Santa magically turn the Astros into the 27 Yankees?"

On TV, they call this the Nostradamus Effect.  The Astros are smart not to look to the future.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 08:42:06 pm »

I think it's roughly "why won't Santa magically turn the Astros into the 27 Yankees?"

Ooohhhhh... got it!

I was stuck on the "crappy organization" part, meaning I had no idea what she meant and it only got worse after that.  Then out of left field (pun intended), comes the question if fan attendance will drop if they don't win.  Well... duh?  Fans are fans.  Okay, basically there are two kinds of fans, those who want to go see a professional baseball team and if they understand and believe in the direction a team is going in terms of either reloading or the dreaded rebuilding (more of this at another time because the word "rebuilding" has been vilified lately only because it is so misunderstood), these fans will understand and keep coming to the ballpark to see the kids develop.  Then there is the fair weather, I want to see the '27 Yankees and the owner should spend a billizion dollars to make it happen.  Yeah, me kind of nolikey those kind of fans, so why should I give a rat's patootey if they show up or not?  I don't actually.  They can show up or not, don't really care and for the record they will show up again when this team wins again... guaranteed.

For example, how many folks knew that the 1991 Houston Astros were going to turn out to be the cornerstone of the great Astros teams of the 90s and Aughts?  That 1991 team went 69-93 after a miserable 1990 veteran ladden team (re: old ballclub) went no better than 75 wins.  The difference was that in 1991, you had all kids playing for the 'Stros.  Kids named Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzales, Craig Biggio, Ken Caminiti, Pete Harnish, Curt Schilling, Steve Finley, Daryl Kile and my personal favorite Ryan Bowen.  If fans stayed away from watching these kids learn how to be a major league ballclub that's on them.  If the Astros go with Manzella, Paulino, Norris and others, they may gel or the may take their lumps, but they won't be an old team struggling to hold it together in the dog days of August with no hope of making a stretch run.  Meanwhile, the other kids like Lyles, Castro and others get more seasoning in the minors.  Bad plan?  Nope, sound one.  If Wade trades for players, be aware he's probably not going to go for older, almost washed up veterans... they tried that last year and it was miserable because in those cases, you can't figure out how in heaven's name this team will get better.  Losing with youngsters means you can see where they're going to be better or where the organization needs to fill a gap.

Same as 1991.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 08:44:01 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 08:42:48 pm »
Tweet from Ben Badler at BA: "Neither Robert Bono nor Luis Bryan, the two guys the Marlins got from Houston for Lindstrom, would have made the Astros top 30"

Bono's a reasonable arm but behind Lyles, Seaton, and Dydalewicz from the Lex team and others like Abad as far as ceiling goes.

The Astros have several of reasonable shortstops in the system (Manzella, Mier, Sutil, and Wikoff for example) so losing Bryan shouldn't bother them at all.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 08:44:48 pm »
Bono's a reasonable arm but behind Lyles, Seaton, and Dydalewicz from the Lex team and others like Abad as far as ceiling goes.

The Astros have several of reasonable shortstops in the system (Manzella, Mier, Sutil, and Wikoff for example) so losing Bryan shouldn't bother them at all.

This is why Wade said they dealt from an area of strength.  He was right.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 09:35:37 pm »
Kids named Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzales, Craig Biggio, Ken Caminiti, Pete Harnish, Curt Schilling, Steve Finley, Daryl Kile and my personal favorite Ryan Bowen. 

All those options, and you chose Ryan Bowen???
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 10:25:36 pm »

GreatBagwellsBeard

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 10:39:08 pm »
Moehler 2.0? Or the younger, non-All Star Russ Ortiz?
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 10:40:20 pm »
New closer indeed. Welcome to Houston, Brandon Lyon.

I'm surprised at the 3 year deal, but Lyon's always been a pitcher I liked.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 10:57:00 pm »
3 years, $15 million. More money committed than you'd like to see (as with any signing), but it's a bargain if he continues pitch like he did in '09. From a brief glance at his Fangraphs page it looks like his effectiveness last season was a result of his using his slider much more often. I'll wait til I've seen him pitch to make any kind of judgment, but the deal looks fine on paper.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2009, 12:23:53 am »
It is completely baffling to give Lyon 3/15 when we could have presumably had Hawkins at 2/7.5. Was Hawkins' age that much of an issue?

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2009, 07:40:48 am »
Something seems a bit "right" about the bullpen. 
Arias
Fulchino
Gervacio
Sampson
Lindstrom
Lyon

Byrdak better be ready to pitch in a ton of games this year.

If Palino or Moehler doesn't make the starting rotation that's 7 righties and 1 lefty. Seems like a reliever swap with another team might be in order.

Of course the Cubs weakness is the lack of lefthanded hitters.  And Pujols is righthanded.  Maybe Wade is designing the pen for th NL Central.

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2009, 08:04:38 am »
Something seems a bit "right" about the bullpen. 
Arias
Fulchino
Gervacio
Sampson
Lindstrom
Lyon

Byrdak better be ready to pitch in a ton of games this year.

If Palino or Moehler doesn't make the starting rotation that's 7 righties and 1 lefty. Seems like a reliever swap with another team might be in order.

Of course the Cubs weakness is the lack of lefthanded hitters.  And Pujols is righthanded.  Maybe Wade is designing the pen for th NL Central.


You forgot about Wes Wright
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2009, 08:14:38 am »
You forgot about Wes Wright

I thought they were trying him as a starter in ST?

pots

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2009, 08:15:35 am »
You forgot about Wes Wright

I didn't.  I assume they are going to give the starter thing a complete shot and not scrap it because of who they've signed.  But maybe they've seen something that says the starter thing won't work.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2009, 08:17:29 am »
It is completely baffling to give Lyon 3/15 when we could have presumably had Hawkins at 2/7.5. Was Hawkins' age that much of an issue?

Me, too.  What am I missing?
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2009, 08:33:15 am »
Me, too.  What am I missing?

Age 30 vs Age 36?  

Honestly, I'm looking at this as an all around win.  Hawkins was a good reliever but has a history of being a so-so closer.  Lyons and Lindstrom may not be better, but they have more upside/potential.  I still wish they could have kept Hawkins, and that might have been the plan, but with these two added I don't see a huge void created by Hawkins departure. 

I'm still impressed with Wade in what he's gotten done this off-season.  Only way he could do more is go land DeRosa at 3B, now that Tejada is off the table.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 08:36:02 am by S.P. Rodriguez »
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2009, 08:38:07 am »
Me, too.  What am I missing?

Just speculation, of course, but the club may have had their hand forced a little after Hawkins signed.  Out of the guys who remained, he may end up being one of the cheapest, decent options.  It doesn't make him a better pitcher, but his Type-B status would give him some leverage in negotiations, as well.  If Lyon was marketing himself as a closer, and he stays in that role, the deal isn't that bad and sets up our bullpen for the next 3 seasons with a fair amount of cost certainty.  The money saved by the two acquisitions could mean the difference between a Feliz-type at 3B and a Blum & Kepp/Johnson platoon. 

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2009, 08:53:19 am »
Me, too.  What am I missing?
I agree, I would've rather had Hawkins for two years. Maybe the Astros know something we don't.

For 3B, what about Troy Glaus on a 1-year make-good deal?
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2009, 08:59:38 am »
Also, surely to get lost in the "stupid Drayton, why not pay Hawkins what he wanted?" drumbeat from the Chronic was Footer's tweet last night:

Quote from: Footer via Twitter
Wade: "Hawk called me and had me in tears. He said some nice things."

Didn't see that quote anywhere in JdJO's article today.  I guess it didn't fit the party line of Wade being a fight-provoking jackass.
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pots

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2009, 09:01:16 am »
An oddity in Lyon's last year numbers.  9 IBB.  5% of his teams' innings pitched and 21% of his teams' IBBs.  Seemed pretty odd but looking back at 2008, Detroit was the intentional walk kings (63 IBBs, 18 more then the next AL team).

At a reasonable 3 IBB, his WHIP was 1.03.  Which would be 7th among AL relievers last year with minimum 60 IP.

So he makes 4.25 million last year.  Has a career year.  Still 30.  Not understanding why people are thinking 5 million per is so far over the top. 

Another cool stat:  Only 2 baserunners allowed in 6 innings of post season play.


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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2009, 09:04:14 am »
I've read this several times to try and decipher it... and I failed miserably.  Sorry, don't know how to provide an opinion to your question other than to say... huh?
There was a question?
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pots

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2009, 09:05:36 am »
Only way he could do more is go land DeRosa at 3B

Not at what he is asking for.  Rumor has it at 27 over 3 years.


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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2009, 09:13:06 am »
With the logjam of potential starters, wouldn't you assume that if WW is to continue to be looked at in that role that he'd spend at least half a season in RR working on it, or will his winter ball plus ST be enough to make a decision?
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2009, 09:15:13 am »
With the logjam of potential starters, wouldn't you assume that if WW is to continue to be looked at in that role that he'd spend at least half a season in RR working on it, ...
That is pretty much what I had assumed all along.  When Moehler's arm falls off in June or July, maybe WW will be ready.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2009, 09:32:24 am »

I think it's roughly "why won't Santa magically turn the Astros into the 27 Yankees?"

i thought the roster was only 25. do the Yankees get 2 extra?
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2009, 09:32:41 am »
With the logjam of potential starters, wouldn't you assume that if WW is to continue to be looked at in that role that he'd spend at least half a season in RR working on it, or will his winter ball plus ST be enough to make a decision?

Seems reasonable.  If he can help the team out the pen or in the rotation, I don't care.  I just hope he's on the roster, if he can.  When that happens, I don't care.  One lefty in the pen would not be a first.  
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2009, 09:35:24 am »
I agree, I would've rather had Hawkins for two years. Maybe the Astros know something we don't.



what a fucking revolutionary idea.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2009, 10:34:55 am »
Age 30 vs Age 36?  

Honestly, I'm looking at this as an all around win.  Hawkins was a good reliever but has a history of being a so-so closer.  Lyons and Lindstrom may not be better, but they have more upside/potential.  I still wish they could have kept Hawkins, and that might have been the plan, but with these two added I don't see a huge void created by Hawkins departure. 

I'm still impressed with Wade in what he's gotten done this off-season.  Only way he could do more is go land DeRosa at 3B, now that Tejada is off the table.


Tejada's off the table?  Where did he end up?  I couldn't find anything on SI.
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Ron Brand

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2009, 10:37:59 am »
Wade's said that a deal with Tejada won't get done, if I remember right because he wants too many years.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2009, 10:38:15 am »

Tejada's off the table?  Where did he end up?  I couldn't find anything on SI.

from Wade, via McTaggart blog:
Quote
Tejada likely done with Astros

Astros general manager Ed Wade met Tuesday morning with Diego Bentz, the agent for free-agent infielder Miguel Tejada, and expressed doubt his club would be able to sign the former American League Most Valuable Player.

"I'm not optimistic we're going to be able to get anything done on Miggy," Wade said. "We love him death and everything he's brought to the organization, but I don't necessarily see a common ground."

Wade said the sticking point is length of terms of the contract. Tejada made about $14 million last season, but the Astros told him he'd had to have a large pay cut and play third base if he was going to return for a third season in Houston. That return now seems very unlikely.

http://brianmctaggart.mlblogs.com/

eta:  Length of is mentioned as primary disconnect.  Reading between the lines, Wade is making this club younger.  He has not ruled out any older players (35 seems to be the qualifier) but they won't be getting anything other than 2 yr, or 1yr w/ vesting option for yr 2 type contracts.  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:41:04 am by S.P. Rodriguez »
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2009, 10:41:29 am »
i thought the roster was only 25. do the Yankees get 2 extra?

Drayton would get them if he weren't too cheap/racist/uncompetitive/whatever-the-hel--JdJO-is-throwing-out-today to bend the rules.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2009, 11:08:57 am »
A good summary of Keith Law's incredible lack of firing neurons:

Quote
keithlaw: Analysis - Ed Wade sees a shiny reliever, can't help himself:
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2009, 11:14:13 am »
A good summary of Keith Law's incredible lack of firing neurons:


Keith Law is a smug, condescending prick who has no respect for the fact that his attempts to mock and ridicule those who do what he could never hope to do (i.e. run a team, as a former asst to GM) make him seem small, petty, and insignificant.  His quips in the Wintermeeting chat have been almost exclusive to blurbs about cold weather/geographic based whining, foodie chat, and the previously mentioned bashing. 
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2009, 11:20:14 am »
Add Gary Majewski to the list of righthanded options in the bullpen

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2009, 11:30:01 am »
All those options, and you chose Ryan Bowen???

Yup.  Silly me!  I even went to spring training that year (excited about the young kids finally getting a chance to play).  I wanted Bowen's signature on a baseball because I knew for a fact he would become the ACE and a future superstar.  I got his name along with others like Jeff Bagwell, Luis Gonzales, etc.... just in case.  I also got Yogi Berra's signature on a baseball for my friend who flipped out that I got him a Hall of Famer to sign his kid's baseball.  Funniest encounter was with Steve Finley who brushed me off and said he was late for a golf game.  I said "No problem Chuck, thank you".  He stopped, screamed "CHUCK?  Did you just call me CHUCK?!?!".  I blushed a little realizing my mistake, he laughed and came back and signed the ball.

Later on Denny Walling told me to... well, you know the rest of the story.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2009, 10:59:02 pm »
I think it's roughly "why won't Santa magically turn the Astros into the 27 Yankees?"

They get all the other advantages, so why shouldn't they get two extra roster spots?



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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2009, 01:13:33 pm »
I think the three years is the more striking part.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2009, 01:17:43 pm »
The average salary in 2009 was $3.26 million

It would be more interesting to know the median or geometric mean.  

/statistics geek

yeah, I don't really get the signing either but am willing to trust those actually paid to make said decisions, Kaz Matsui be damned.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2009, 01:25:16 pm »
It would be more interesting to know the median or geometric mean.  

/statistics geek

yeah, I don't really get the signing either but am willing to trust those actually paid to make said decisions, Kaz Matsui be damned.

True, I would like that number also, but couldn't find it in the 2.1 seconds it took me to find the average.  Reporters are digging up all kinds of scenarios of shock and consternation regarding GM Wade.  In addition to the brace of GMs with their mouths hanging open, the JO discovered a vast savanna, in fact "a majority of scouts, general managers and agents were shocked that (Valverde) turned (arbitration) down."  Ed Wade is clearly the one celled organism of GMs.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2009, 02:24:19 pm »
The average salary in 2009 was $3.26 million

Maybe it's the amount of years that soured them?  Or maybe someone else just wants to take a shot at Ed Wade by putting words in someone's mouth.  Notice he also finds occasion to rip the 2005 Astros in the same article because they didn't come close to winning the NL Central.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2009, 02:37:19 pm »
Maybe it's the amount of years that soured them?  Or maybe someone else just wants to take a shot at Ed Wade by putting words in someone's mouth.  Notice he also finds occasion to rip the 2005 Astros in the same article because they didn't come close to winning the NL Central.

And didn't play a meaningful game in their division all year. I didn't remember that 35-10 closing stretch having been entirely against Eastern Division and Western Division teams, but I'm probably just mistaken. (Actually, I probably am mistaken, but in a different way: 35-10 probably was the year before, wasn't it?)
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2009, 02:39:12 pm »
Maybe it's the amount of years that soured them?  Or maybe someone else just wants to take a shot at Ed Wade by putting words in someone's mouth.  Notice he also finds occasion to rip the 2005 Astros in the same article because they didn't come close to winning the NL Central.

I don't see how.  Is there a no trade clause?  In 3 years, $5 million will likely be below the average (or mean).  The only argument against the contract is that they think Lyons will not be an effective pitcher.  Fair enough but that's a judgment call.  These GMs are "aghast" because they think they know more about Lyons than Wade?  Is that surprising?  I like the idea that Rosenthal is taking a shot at Wade, possibly by exaggerating the reaction.  Wade is not a sympathetic figure.  It's all about the "feelings" with these guys, as Zipp noted in the HoF thread.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2009, 02:41:39 pm »
True, I would like that number also, but couldn't find it in the 2.1 seconds it took me to find the average.  Reporters are digging up all kinds of scenarios of shock and consternation regarding GM Wade.  In addition to the brace of GMs with their mouths hanging open, the JO discovered a vast savanna, in fact "a majority of scouts, general managers and agents were shocked that (Valverde) turned (arbitration) down."  Ed Wade is clearly the one celled organism of GMs.
Perhaps even more shocking than all that is noted Wade-hater Jon Heyman, listing the Astros among his "winners" of the Meetings.

"Astros: While they overpaid for Lyon, he still makes the ballclub better and will cover the Astros if they don't get closer Jose Valverde back (though Lyon's better as a setup man than closer). Pedro Feliz is dependable at third base (not to mention very reasonable at $4.5 million)."

He also printed this earlier in the article, '"It's about supply and demand," explained Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr., who admitted to being in the bidding for Lyon almost until the bitter end.'
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 02:45:30 pm by Reuben »
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2009, 03:24:05 pm »
I don't see how.  Is there a no trade clause?  In 3 years, $5 million will likely be below the average (or mean).  The only argument against the contract is that they think Lyons will not be an effective pitcher.  Fair enough but that's a judgment call.  These GMs are "aghast" because they think they know more about Lyons than Wade?  Is that surprising?  I like the idea that Rosenthal is taking a shot at Wade, possibly by exaggerating the reaction.  Wade is not a sympathetic figure.  It's all about the "feelings" with these guys, as Zipp noted in the HoF thread.

Verducci, not Rosenthal, but your points stand.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2009, 03:31:47 pm »
Verducci, not Rosenthal, but your points stand.

Thanks for the correction.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2009, 03:54:25 pm »
Putz signed to a 1-year, $3mm deal with an additional $3.25mm in incentives.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4734682&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2009, 03:58:13 pm »
Putz signed to a 1-year, $3mm deal with an additional $3.25mm in incentives.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4734682&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

Warning: prominent Colin Cowherd ad on linked page.
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ferret

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2009, 04:38:10 pm »
Astros DOOOOOOOMED! without DOOOOOMED! without LaTroy Hawkins, Ed Wade complete idiot,

Richard Justice
July 30, 2008
Astros get LaTroy Hawkins, and I'm just more confused than ever.
I've never been so popular. I'm hearing from friends I haven't heard from in years. I'm even hearing from people I've never met. Some of these people are in the media. Some work for major league clubs. They call me because they think I should know why the local baseball team is doing these things.

What is Ed Wade up to?

What's the plan down there?

Is Drayton ordering him to do this stuff?

Who's next on his list? Omar Vizquel? Moises Alou?

I have to tell them that I have no idea what Ed Wade is doing. I pretend I do, but I really don't.

Maybe there's a large plan here that I can't comprehend. Maybe it'll be revealed in bits and pieces. Or maybe the guy is bonkers.

I don't know what I don't know anymore. That was my reaction when the Astros acquired 35-year-old LaTroy Hawkins from the Yankees. He's a 14-year veteran with a 5.71 ERA. He'd been designated for assignment by the Yankees. He may make the Astros better, but not by a lot. Why bother?
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2008/07/the_astros_get.html

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LaTroy Hawkins? Really?
When I heard the Astros made a trade before Wednesday's game I was excited. I was waiting for announcement about an impact player coming to the Astros and injecting some life. Then they announced they had acquired LaTroy Hawkins. Huh? ...In essence, it appears the Astros just traded for an average middle reliever. The LaTroy Hawkins of the early 2000s would have been great, but now? I don't get it.
http://blogs.chron.com/gamedayastros/2008/07/latroy_hawkins_really.html

Here's the article from the Chron when Hawkins was acquired, comments are still attached,
http://www.chron.com/disp/discuss.mpl/sports/5916632.html

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2009, 06:06:12 pm »
Putz signed to a 1-year, $3mm deal with an additional $3.25mm in incentives.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4734682&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines


An incentive-laden contract?  I guess ol' Putz'll be singing for his supper this coming season.  (Whenever I latch onto a new bon mot, I like to beat the hell out of somebody else's dead horse with it, until it's even deader.)

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2009, 06:17:41 pm »
Someone help me out here.  Putz, a guy with injury questions, gets 3+mil yet a healthy Lyon at 5mil is outrageous.

I still think the aghast GMs were merely shocked they got out-bid by Houston w/ their "money problems".
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2009, 02:02:50 am »
Footer weighs in on the Lyon signing: LINK

The Lindstrom and Feliz deals were largely met with approval from the so-called "industry insiders," but the Lyon deal was roundly criticized, both for the length of the deal (three years) and the dollars committed ($15 million).

A couple of thoughts immediately came to mind when I read some of the media reports. "Disbelief" from "rival GMs" can also be interpreted as "disgust" from "GMs desperately looking for relief pitching," because the Lyon signing helped to set the market for late-inning relievers. The hefty price tag will make it that much more difficult for teams to find affordable relief help. That makes GMs grumpy.

The sentiment is completely understandable. Normally, it's the big-market teams -- Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, etc., that heap large dollars on top free agents and make it nearly impossible for any of the mid to small market teams to compete monetarily, because it's similar to grading on the curve -- once one player's price tag skyrockets, everyone else's increases as well.

That said, let's not pretend that Lyon was among the very elite in this year's free agent class, or that the dollars allotted to him are going to irreparably mess up the market for everyone else. This isn't a $252-million A-Rod deal.

Lyon's contract is without question on the generous side, and I admit I was surprised when I heard the dollar figure. But after reading some of the comments from GMs who were also in heavy pursuit of Lyon, I started to see Ed Wade's logic on this one.

Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. flatly told reporters he was "in pretty deep" in the Lyon negotiations, and "Ed stole him from us." One report suggested the Phillies offered two years at $9 million.

Lyon's 2009 employer, the Tigers, also wanted to retain the right-hander, but they were not interested in trumping the Astros' three-year offer.So to eliminate the competition, obviously, the Astros had to go a little higher and longer than they normally would for a pitcher whose role -- setup or closer -- has yet to be defined. That is where the criticism is stemming from -- $15 million for someone who might not even close? Why?

It comes down to three possible outcomes. Lyon could work himself into a setup role with Lindstrom closing, which would mean the Astros are paying more than a setup man is worth. Or, Lyon becomes the closer, and the Astros get a relative bargain at $5 mill a year. Or, Lyon is ineffective in setup and closing roles, in which case the contract will be lambasted. And understandably so.

But to me, it comes down to this: If the Astros are going to overpay, I'd rather it be for pitching.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2009, 09:55:18 am »
As usual, a dose of sanity from Footer.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2009, 10:10:09 am »
That is where the criticism is stemming from -- $15 million for someone who might not even close?

This -and three years - is the reason I think this isn't a good signing.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2009, 10:39:58 am »

But to me, it comes down to this: If the Astros are going to overpay, I'd rather it be for pitching.[/i]

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2009, 11:32:59 am »
That is where the criticism is stemming from -- $15 million for someone who might not even close?

This -and three years - is the reason I think this isn't a good signing.

That's all well and good.  I see this as Wade (and probably Smith to a large degree) assessing the team's neads, prioritizing for purposes of budgeting, laying out a plan based on a number of contingencies, and then executing that plan.

They needed back of the bullpen relievers.  They landed two.  They needed a quality 3B (as I'm seeing this as a move toward previous stated goals of pitching and defense) that can hit for some power, especially with runners on (a key issue last year, if I recall correctly) and found one. 

Lindstrom is a power reliever, in every sense of the word.  There is lots of upside to this guy.  Will he lose time to injury?  Possibly.  But you don't land someone with his "stuff", for what the Astros gave up, and not have some health questions attached.  If none, why would that team see a 1.5mil price tag as too hefty?  Lyons was bought at the current market.  That's the cost of building using FA's.  They go at a premium, if they are a quality option, and only come at a discount if, again, there are health questions attached.  After the results of last year's health-risk additions, you'd think fans would appreciate the Astros staying away from such players.  I guess Wade is damned if he does, damned if doesn't.  Shitty situation to find oneself in, if you ask me. 

Feliz is be no means a "balanced" player, as he is no where near as strong at the plate as he is in the field.  However, a balanced player of that quality would not come for 4.5mil on a 1 yr deal.  And given the long standing trend of placing a premium on offense at 3B, they got a cheaper option by emphasizing defense over offense (which they can do because they have Berkman, Lee, and Pence - to a much lesser degree).  And, imo, I actually like Feliz in this lineup - assuming Berkman rebounds and Lee maintains - batting 5th.  Hitting 5-7 should be a whole different ball game if Berkman returns to form.  Those guys hitting 5, 6, and 7 should see a significant increase in FB's.  Think Wigginton, only better in the field, if that helps. 

The only other move I would like to see is going after a better catching option.  Buck was non-tendered, which makes me giddy at the thought of him playing for Houston.  He is a solid defensive player w/ an average stick.  If they could land Buck, he would be my OD starter over the current options.  If he's hitting 7th, that's a nice player to have in that role. 

It allows you to slide Manzella into the 8-hole, with little pressure to contribute offensively.  If he hits, you can flip him and Matsui, if Matsui struggles again.  I'm not a fan of Matsui, due to his injury issues, but I'm not knocking that signing.  At the time, it was the best option they had, addressing a need they had with the roster at the time.  In my opinion, this lineup and bullpen has shaped up better than I expected. 

Bourn
Matsui
Berkman
Lee
Feliz
Pence
Quinterro/Rodeo Clown - or Buck, in my baseball dreams
Manzella

Bullpen
Lyons
Lindstrom
Fulchino - Who I anticipate nailing down that 7-8 inning gig
Bazardo - Middle Long, but another guy I think has a big future in the late innings.  Nasty stuff, control issues, but if allowed to focus on one inning at a time, might be able to blow away batters.
Sampson - Middle/long guy, maybe 7/8 guy.
Byrdak
Gervacio - with expectation that Wright Will start in AAA as a starter option




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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2009, 11:45:17 am »
It is completely baffling to give Lyon 3/15 when we could have presumably had Hawkins at 2/7.5. Was Hawkins' age that much of an issue?

Exactly what I was thinking.  By not offering arbitration to Hawkins, you were saying no to a 1 year $4.5 million contract.  And then this 3 year $15million contract comes.  Seems incongruous.   There goes 2 draft picks that were just sitting there.

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2009, 12:14:38 pm »
Exactly what I was thinking.  By not offering arbitration to Hawkins, you were saying no to a 1 year $4.5 million contract.  And then this 3 year $15million contract comes.  Seems incongruous.   There goes 2 draft picks that were just sitting there.

How do you know what Hawkins would get in arbitration?  He made 4mil on his last contract, has strung together 2 very good years.  It's likely he gets 6mil in arbitration, not 4.5mil, if not even more.  And, the inescapable fact that he's going to be 37 next season.

Help me understand, what is so hard to understand about passing that up?

Astros offered 1yr with a vesting option for a 2nd year.  That's a smart contract.  What I don't get is why no one questions Milwaukee for having Hoffman age 42 and Hawkins age 37 (as of 12/21) at the back of their bullpen.  Anyone care to explain how that's a great plan?

Seriously, I liked Hawkins but this sure seems like folks falling in love with their own team's FA's.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2009, 01:27:58 pm »
How do you know what Hawkins would get in arbitration?  He made 4mil on his last contract, has strung together 2 very good years.  It's likely he gets 6mil in arbitration, not 4.5mil, if not even more.  And, the inescapable fact that he's going to be 37 next season.

Help me understand, what is so hard to understand about passing that up?

Astros offered 1yr with a vesting option for a 2nd year.  That's a smart contract.  What I don't get is why no one questions Milwaukee for having Hoffman age 42 and Hawkins age 37 (as of 12/21) at the back of their bullpen.  Anyone care to explain how that's a great plan?

Seriously, I liked Hawkins but this sure seems like folks falling in love with their own team's FA's.

Not to mention the uncertainty around whether Valverde would have accepted arbitration and how that would have impacted payroll. 

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2009, 01:39:16 pm »
Not to mention the uncertainty around whether Valverde would have accepted arbitration and how that would have impacted payroll. 

Bingo. The Astros knew they'd have been fairly screwed payroll-room-wise if Valverde accepted arb, but they were willing to take that risk to try to get the two draft picks. If BOTH Valverde and Hawkins accepted, they would've been REALLY screwed. (Val getting about $10 mil, Hawkins about $5 mil).

Also, Valpo - I really doubt the Brewers, or any team, would've signed Hawkins if he were going to cost them a 1st-round pick (see Juan Cruz and others last year). Hawkins' agent knew this and would've almost certainly had him accept arb if offered. So, effectively, there was no point in offering Hawkins arb. Unless you're the Yankees and payroll budget is not a concept you have to think about.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2009, 12:50:01 pm »
I'm trusting in Ed Wade for now. I'm liking the pickups under the budget constraints and other baseball moving parts issues that he faces. He's proven out to have made some strong bullpen pickups.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2009, 01:06:50 pm »
That's all well and good.  I see this as Wade (and probably Smith to a large degree) assessing the team's neads, prioritizing for purposes of budgeting, laying out a plan based on a number of contingencies, and then executing that plan.

They needed back of the bullpen relievers.  They landed two.  They needed a quality 3B (as I'm seeing this as a move toward previous stated goals of pitching and defense) that can hit for some power, especially with runners on (a key issue last year, if I recall correctly) and found one. 

Lindstrom is a power reliever, in every sense of the word.  There is lots of upside to this guy.  Will he lose time to injury?  Possibly.  But you don't land someone with his "stuff", for what the Astros gave up, and not have some health questions attached.  If none, why would that team see a 1.5mil price tag as too hefty?  Lyons was bought at the current market.  That's the cost of building using FA's.  They go at a premium, if they are a quality option, and only come at a discount if, again, there are health questions attached.  After the results of last year's health-risk additions, you'd think fans would appreciate the Astros staying away from such players.  I guess Wade is damned if he does, damned if doesn't.  Shitty situation to find oneself in, if you ask me. 

Feliz is be no means a "balanced" player, as he is no where near as strong at the plate as he is in the field.  However, a balanced player of that quality would not come for 4.5mil on a 1 yr deal.  And given the long standing trend of placing a premium on offense at 3B, they got a cheaper option by emphasizing defense over offense (which they can do because they have Berkman, Lee, and Pence - to a much lesser degree).  And, imo, I actually like Feliz in this lineup - assuming Berkman rebounds and Lee maintains - batting 5th.  Hitting 5-7 should be a whole different ball game if Berkman returns to form.  Those guys hitting 5, 6, and 7 should see a significant increase in FB's.  Think Wigginton, only better in the field, if that helps. 

The only other move I would like to see is going after a better catching option.  Buck was non-tendered, which makes me giddy at the thought of him playing for Houston.  He is a solid defensive player w/ an average stick.  If they could land Buck, he would be my OD starter over the current options.  If he's hitting 7th, that's a nice player to have in that role. 

It allows you to slide Manzella into the 8-hole, with little pressure to contribute offensively.  If he hits, you can flip him and Matsui, if Matsui struggles again.  I'm not a fan of Matsui, due to his injury issues, but I'm not knocking that signing.  At the time, it was the best option they had, addressing a need they had with the roster at the time.  In my opinion, this lineup and bullpen has shaped up better than I expected. 

Bourn
Matsui
Berkman
Lee
Feliz
Pence
Quinterro/Rodeo Clown - or Buck, in my baseball dreams
Manzella

Bullpen
Lyons
Lindstrom
Fulchino - Who I anticipate nailing down that 7-8 inning gig
Bazardo - Middle Long, but another guy I think has a big future in the late innings.  Nasty stuff, control issues, but if allowed to focus on one inning at a time, might be able to blow away batters.
Sampson - Middle/long guy, maybe 7/8 guy.
Byrdak
Gervacio - with expectation that Wright Will start in AAA as a starter option






Just wondering, what's got you so high on Buck?

Mr. Happy

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2009, 01:18:14 pm »
Just wondering, what's got you so high on Buck?

I doubt that he's real high on Buck; I suspect that his point is that Buck would be a vast improvement over the Rodeo Clown. And I agree with that.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2009, 05:01:16 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there also appears to be some gamesmanship in Footer's description of Wade's logic in the Lyons signing.  That is, if Lyons gets 3 yr/15MM, then the bar is set for a healthy veteran.  Someone like Putz signs for less because of injury history and the need to prove himself deserving of a longer deal. But if I were someone like Valverde, I'd be putting Wade and Lyons on my Christmas card list, because they just drove up the market price for the mid- and top-tier guys who don't have glaring defects like Putz.  If Valverde was worth $10-11MM before this signing, he might sign for $12-13 now, which leaves clubs with fewer resources to sign other pieces.  Good show, Ed.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2009, 05:23:02 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there also appears to be some gamesmanship in Footer's description of Wade's logic in the Lyons signing.  That is, if Lyons gets 3 yr/15MM, then the bar is set for a healthy veteran.  Someone like Putz signs for less because of injury history and the need to prove himself deserving of a longer deal. But if I were someone like Valverde, I'd be putting Wade and Lyons on my Christmas card list, because they just drove up the market price for the mid- and top-tier guys who don't have glaring defects like Putz.  If Valverde was worth $10-11MM before this signing, he might sign for $12-13 now, which leaves clubs with fewer resources to sign other pieces.  Good show, Ed.

I think you're overthinking this.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2009, 05:41:22 pm »
I think you're overthinking this.

Boy Howdy. It was the result of negotiations, pure and simple.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2009, 06:30:42 pm »
I've been accused of worse.

I'm not going to belabor the point, just re-read the Footer article and see if that's not there.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2009, 06:44:50 pm »
Just wondering, what's got you so high on Buck?

Not all that high on Buck.  But he is far more proven than the two options Houston currently have on hand.  He's a solid player, capable of starting, more so that Rodeo Clown and Quinterro.
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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2009, 04:08:49 pm »
Rodney signs for 2 years, $11mm

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=4768668&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

He had some strange stats from last year. 37/38 saves but an ERA well over 4. The article says his ERA in non-save situations was over 6.

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Re: New closer for the Good Guys.
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2009, 04:33:47 pm »
Rodney was the closer on my roto team last year so I followed him over the year.  He was very inconsistent.  Gave up a lot of runs even in his saves.  And he was terrible in non-closing situations.
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