Author Topic: VY  (Read 6499 times)

Alkie

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VY
« on: November 29, 2009, 10:04:35 pm »
Sorry, just wanted to get this over here and out of the Texans thread since it's completely unrelated at this point and is just pissing people off.

I'd rather the VY thread piss off people on its own.

---------------------------

I just finally got to watch the entire drive from start to finish and I can honestly say that this statement above just proves that you're willing to say anything to believe that Vince Young must be the luckiest fucker who ever walked the Earth.   

The man accounted for all 99 yards in a 2:37 drive to win the game.   How is that not, by definition, willing his fucking team to win?   

Hate him all you want.    I'm not trying to convince you haters to like Vince.   Don't care.   But making it sound like he's in the right place at the right time and that he's not somehow responsible for the insane number of wins he has at every....fucking......level is just horseshit.

And this shit about him "only" producing on 4th down today?   That's just the stupidest shit I've ever heard.   4th down conversions counts the same as 1st down conversions.  You know goddamn well that if Schaub had done the EXACT same thing, you'd be wiping his cum off your bib and babbling about how "clutch" he is or some shit.

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Re: VY
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 12:13:27 am »
He threw some nice passes today... overall his accuracy is much improved from where it was his rookie and sophomore seasons.

It was a good day overall for former Horns, including my "other" favorite alum, Ricky Williams.

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Re: VY
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 02:51:33 am »
Sorry, just wanted to get this over here and out of the Texans thread since it's completely unrelated at this point and is just pissing people off.

I'd rather the VY thread piss off people on its own.

---------------------------

I just finally got to watch the entire drive from start to finish and I can honestly say that this statement above just proves that you're willing to say anything to believe that Vince Young must be the luckiest fucker who ever walked the Earth.   

The man accounted for all 99 yards in a 2:37 drive to win the game.   How is that not, by definition, willing his fucking team to win?   

Hate him all you want.    I'm not trying to convince you haters to like Vince.   Don't care.   But making it sound like he's in the right place at the right time and that he's not somehow responsible for the insane number of wins he has at every....fucking......level is just horseshit.

And this shit about him "only" producing on 4th down today?   That's just the stupidest shit I've ever heard.   4th down conversions counts the same as 1st down conversions.  You know goddamn well that if Schaub had done the EXACT same thing, you'd be wiping his cum off your bib and babbling about how "clutch" he is or some shit.

I am a proud UT grad just like you, and I'll always be a Vince Young fan.  What I have a problem with is this idea that he just wins games or that he's so clutch or whatever.  He had to convert those 4th downs because his bad passes put them in those situations, and his receivers and the Cardinals' telegraphed blitzes bailed him out.   His team needed a 99 yard drive to win because HIS TEAM ONLY PUT 13 POINTS ON THE BOARD AGAINST A SHITTY ARIZONA DEFENSE.  But I guess it doesn't matter how he plays because he just wins and his team just wins when he's in the lineup except when they went 14-2 without him in the lineup.

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Re: VY
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 07:31:51 am »
But I guess it doesn't matter how he plays because he just wins and his team just wins when he's in the lineup except when they went 14-2 without him in the lineup.

Right, except his team was 0-6 this year without him in the lineup. That can't be ignored. This is the first time a team has won five in a row after starting a season 0-6, even if it was all luck and bad defenses, that is not meaningless. One must embrace folly to deny his impact. 
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Re: VY
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 07:48:48 am »
Right, except his team was 0-6 this year without him in the lineup. That can't be ignored. This is the first time a team has won five in a row after starting a season 0-6, even if it was all luck and bad defenses, that is not meaningless. One must embrace folly to deny his impact. 

The 14-2 without him can't be ignored either.  One must embrace folly to insist that it's all him.
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Re: VY
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 08:00:38 am »
One must embrace folly to insist that it's all him.

I don't think any one is. I was just making the point that it dishonest to not give him some credit for the positive influence he has had on his team's won-loss record. He's not hurting his team, he's not making turnovers on potential game winning drives.
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Re: VY
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 09:53:47 am »
I don't think any one is. I was just making the point that it dishonest to not give him some credit for the positive influence he has had on his team's won-loss record. He's not hurting his team, he's not making turnovers on potential game winning drives.

Those who say things like "his team just wins when he plays" are, or are very close to it.  His team wins some when he plays, loses some when he plays.  They win some when he doesn't play, lose some when he doesn't play.  He's not infallible, and he happens to be surrounded by a ton of talent.  I didn't see the last drive yesterday, but from the way it's described, he was terrific.  Good for him, good for the Titans.  He's certainly better than the current alternative.  And the only thing that matter is that his team wins.  There is no extra credit in the NFL for flashy numbers or margin of victory.  A win is a win is a win.  The final score is all that counts. 
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Re: VY
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 09:53:47 am »
I don't think any one is. I was just making the point that it dishonest to not give him some credit for the positive influence he has had on his team's won-loss record. He's not hurting his team, he's not making turnovers on potential game winning drives.

He has had a very positive influence obviously, as the team has scored a touchdown more a game with him at quarterback since the 0-6 start, and his skills and newfound discipline have balanced Chris Johnson enough to allow them to play the tough ball control style that Fisher wants.  But there's a huge difference between acknowledging his contributions to his team, and saying that he's literally willing his team to victory because he's a winner and that's what winners do.  If a healthy Kurt Warner starts at quarterback yesterday then that last drive is for a meaningless garbage touchdown-- so would that mean Vince Young is now a loser?  If that tipped pass at the line is caught by a Cardinal instead of his own teammate, would that suddenly make him a loser?  If the 4th down pass from his own 7 was deflected by the defender who was in perfect position to make the play, would that make him a loser who went 4 and out on a potential game-winning drive?

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Re: VY
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 09:57:28 am »
He has had a very positive influence obviously, as the team has scored a touchdown more a game with him at quarterback since the 0-6 start, and his skills and newfound discipline have balanced Chris Johnson enough to allow them to play the tough ball control style that Fisher wants.  But there's a huge difference between acknowledging his contributions to his team, and saying that he's literally willing his team to victory because he's a winner and that's what winners do.  If a healthy Kurt Warner starts at quarterback yesterday then that last drive is for a meaningless garbage touchdown-- so would that mean Vince Young is now a loser?  If that tipped pass at the line is caught by a Cardinal instead of his own teammate, would that suddenly make him a loser?  If the 4th down pass from his own 7 was deflected by the defender who was in perfect position to make the play, would that make him a loser who went 4 and out on a potential game-winning drive?

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Alkie

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Re: VY
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 10:12:25 am »
If
If
If

Dude, really?   What is this?   

You know, if Vince wasn't 23-11 as a starter in the NFL, 30-2 with a national title in college, and whatever the fuck he was at Madison, he'd be selling insurance in Missouri City.

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Re: VY
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 10:53:14 am »
Dude, really?   What is this?   

You know, if Vince wasn't 23-11 as a starter in the NFL, 30-2 with a national title in college, and whatever the fuck he was at Madison, he'd be selling insurance in Missouri City.

He's demonstrated borderline illiteracy and a tendency to give up at the first sign of adversity - I don't think insurance sales would be his business. His wonderlic retest puts him somewhere in the range of warehouse worker and security guard; the original result is more like court-appointed guardian level.

Out of curiosity I know he was planning to finish his degree this year -anyone know if that occurred?
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Alkie

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Re: VY
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 10:55:56 am »
He's demonstrated borderline illiteracy and a tendency to give up at the first sign of adversity - I don't think insurance sales would be his business. His wonderlic retest puts him somewhere in the range of warehouse worker and security guard; the original result is more like court-appointed guardian level.

That's actually a really good point.   As is the case with most athletes I like, no one will ever confuse Vince as a thinker.   Good at sports, not the brightest dude.

Quote
Out of curiosity I know he was planning to finish his degree this year -anyone know if that occurred?

No comment.

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Re: VY
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 11:15:30 am »
So apparently VY is a real life Forrest Gump - barely functional intelligence, continually stumbling into fortunate situations despite his lack of skills?

I suppose Leinart is Jenny - sleeping around in an attempt to find some sense of self worth?

Who is Lt. Dan in this bullcrap scenario?
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Re: VY
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 11:15:55 am »
Dude, really?   What is this?  

You know, if Vince wasn't 23-11 as a starter in the NFL, 30-2 with a national title in college, and whatever the fuck he was at Madison, he'd be selling insurance in Missouri City.

He was a great college quarterback, one of the best ever it could be argued.  He has so far shown himself to be a sometimes above average pro quarterback who can flash far below average and far above average in a given game.  He is not some superhero with magical winning powers.  Those "Ifs" I brought up aren't crazy hypotheticals.  They are what would have happened if blind luck had gone against him instead of for him, and then we'd all be talking today about his boneheaded play to end the first half instead of how he just wins games.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 11:18:08 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: VY
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 11:16:17 am »
That's actually a really good point.   As is the case with most athletes I like, no one will ever confuse Vince as a thinker.   Good at sports, not the brightest dude.

There are some athletes who are borderline idiot-savants.  They usually end up making lots of money, which other people are happy to take off them, leaving them penniless and pathetic (literally), within a few years after the end of their playing careers.

One of the most gifted soccer players I ever saw (being too young to have seen Pele or George Best in their primes) was Paul Gascoigne.  His incredible skill, speed of thought and vision on the field was matched only by his numbskullery off it.  He was barely able to verbalise his thoughts under normal circumstances and, on occasion would behave in a manner not unlike Rain Man being confronted with a plane ride.

In the 1990 World Cup, in the semi-final verses the hated Germans, he picked up his 2nd yellow card of the knockout phase (a harsh decision by the referee, by most accounts) which meant that he was automatically suspended for the final should England progress.  He spent the next 5 minutes ambling about the field with tears streaming down his face, and was this close to being hauled off by the manager.  In the end, he got his shit back together, and put on a glorious display in a thrilling match that - predictably - ended up with the Germans beating England on penalties.

The following year, his club reached the final of the FA Cup.  The teams took the field as the Band of the Coldstream Guards (the dudes with the big beehive hats) were marching off.  Unable to control or express his excitement, "Gazza" ran through the band's ranks, and knocked one of their hats off.  Shortly after the start of the match, he kicked an opponent in the solar plexus - for which he was yellow carded - and, moments later, hacked another down as if he were a Cobra Kai sweeping the leg.  He avoided ejection* purely for sympathetic reasons, as he was stretchered off the field.  He'd ruptured his cruciate ligaments.  He would later re-rupture them, days before having the cast removed, falling down the stairs during a brawl in a night club.

After recovering as best as was medically possible at that time, he made a big-money move to Italian club Lazio.  His response to the first question posed to him during his introductory press conference...was to belch into the microphone.

* His club, who remained at full strength despite a clear dismissible offense by Gascoigne, went on to win the match after extra time.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 11:53:24 am by Limey »
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Alkie

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Re: VY
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2009, 11:27:50 am »
He was a great college quarterback, one of the best ever it could be argued.  He has so far shown himself to be a sometimes above average pro quarterback who can flash far below average and far above average in a given game.  He is not some superhero with magical winning powers.  Those "Ifs" I brought up aren't crazy hypotheticals.  They are what would have happened if blind luck had gone against him instead of for him, and then we'd all be talking today about his boneheaded play to end the first half instead of how he just wins games.

Joey, what DID happen?   He drove his team 99 yards in 2:37, accounted for every yard, and converted 3 massive 4th down plays in the process.   Did some shit go his way?  Of course, it's sports; that's how it works.   You don't find it amazing that the breaks seem to go Vince's "way" a lot more often than not?   How many 99 yard game winning drives do the Texans have in their history (I don't know the answer, but I imagine it's few if not zero)?   Vince Young is 53-13 (.803) in football games that he has started since graduating high school.

That's not lucky, that's incredible.   

Limey

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Re: VY
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2009, 11:33:14 am »
How many 99 yard game winning drives do the Texans have in their history (I don't know the answer, but I imagine it's few if not zero)?

They don't have many wins, total!
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Re: VY
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2009, 11:35:43 am »
"Gazza"

I read a fascinating portrait of this nutter in Granta I think it was a couple of years ago. Even if you're quite familiar with the story the portrait is worth the time. I'll dig it up and lend it to you next time I see you. I'm sure I still have it around.
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Limey

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Re: VY
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2009, 11:42:30 am »
I read a fascinating portrait of this nutter in Granta I think it was a couple of years ago. Even if you're quite familiar with the story the portrait is worth the time. I'll dig it up and lend it to you next time I see you. I'm sure I still have it around.

Thanks, I'd like that.  In the meantime, here's a pretty good illustration of what I mean.
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Re: VY
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2009, 11:57:28 am »
Thanks, I'd like that.  In the meantime, here's a pretty good illustration of what I mean.
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Re: VY
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2009, 11:58:36 am »
Thanks, I'd like that.  In the meantime, here's a pretty good illustration of what I mean.

Hey, your soccer is in my football thread.

Limey

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Re: VY
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2009, 12:05:29 pm »
Hey, your soccer is in my football thread.


Yep, and I've added more to my original post.  Deal with it.
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Re: VY
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2009, 12:34:00 pm »
Joey, what DID happen?   He drove his team 99 yards in 2:37, accounted for every yard, and converted 3 massive 4th down plays in the process.   Did some shit go his way?  Of course, it's sports; that's how it works.   You don't find it amazing that the breaks seem to go Vince's "way" a lot more often than not?   How many 99 yard game winning drives do the Texans have in their history (I don't know the answer, but I imagine it's few if not zero)?   Vince Young is 53-13 (.803) in football games that he has started since graduating high school.

That's not lucky, that's incredible.   

On the first 4th down play, he threw right at a blanketed receiver who somehow was able to jump up and grab the ball around the defender's head.  How does his innate winnability make that break go his way?  Or how come the breaks didn't go his way when he led his offense to only 13 points (including a Chris Johnson 85 yard TD run) before the final drive, or when he ran his team out of 3 points at the end of the first half. 

The Cardinals scored more than 20 in 7 straight games with Kurt Warner starting, yet they only get 10 plus a return touchdown with Leinart starting.  Yes, Vince Young played a good game, yes his team won.  But was Vince incredible?  Did the Titans win because he's just a winner and fuck all else?

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Re: VY
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2009, 01:25:36 pm »
Well, yes.
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Re: VY
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2009, 03:26:38 pm »
As at Titans fan (ducking for cover)

VY has had a part to play in the TT's turnaround.  However here are some other factors. 

1.  I think they missed Jim Schwatz as Def. Coordinator and having two injured cornerbacks with broken arms hurt them defensively.  They have since picked up Rod Hood who filled in with solid play at the beginning of their win streak until Harper came back.

2.  Kenny Britt appears to have caught up to the speed of the pro game half way through the season.  He has 13 of his 33 pass catches in the last 3 games.  He was a prime target for VY on that 99 yard drive. 

Vince has added an element to the turn around but his mobility is helping an aging offensive line and he has been surprisingly effective throwing the ball.  Let's see how he does against the colts next week before we knight him.
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Re: VY
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2009, 04:07:58 pm »
Right now VY is doing exactly what Collins did in last year's 14-2 season, not shit the bed. The Titans allowed 33 points a game during their 0-6 start and have allowed 18 points a game while going 5-0. VY as part of the offense has played a part in that, sustained drives keeping the other team's offense off the field being one example, but to say the Titans are 5-0 just because Vince "just wins" is fucking homerism at it's best. I can appreciate being a fan of the guy, but don't pretend to have a rational discussion about him when that type of ridiculous statement is what's being presented.
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Re: VY
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 04:53:24 pm »
Right now VY is doing exactly what Collins did in last year's 14-2 season, not shit the bed. The Titans allowed 33 points a game during their 0-6 start and have allowed 18 points a game while going 5-0. VY as part of the offense has played a part in that, sustained drives keeping the other team's offense off the field being one example, but to say the Titans are 5-0 just because Vince "just wins" is fucking homerism at it's best. I can appreciate being a fan of the guy, but don't pretend to have a rational discussion about him when that type of ridiculous statement is what's being presented.

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Re: VY
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 06:18:43 pm »
Right now VY is doing exactly what Collins did in last year's 14-2 season, not shit the bed. The Titans allowed 33 points a game during their 0-6 start and have allowed 18 points a game while going 5-0. VY as part of the offense has played a part in that, sustained drives keeping the other team's offense off the field being one example, but to say the Titans are 5-0 just because Vince "just wins" is fucking homerism at it's best. I can appreciate being a fan of the guy, but don't pretend to have a rational discussion about him when that type of ridiculous statement is what's being presented.

Titans offense, first 6 games:  14.0 ppg
Titans offense, since VY took over, same RB, same WRs: 29.0 ppg

So, yeah, cram it, Aggie.

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Re: VY
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 07:03:02 pm »
Titans offense, first 6 games:  14.0 ppg
Titans offense, since VY took over, same RB, same WRs: 29.0 ppg

So, yeah, cram it, Aggie.

First 6 games:  33.67 passes per game, 26 runs per game
Last 5 games: 25.6 passes per game, 36.6 runs per game

I'm not saying that VY is *not* the catalyst behind the winning streak, because he obviously is a huge part of it.  Whether they're winning now because he's a "winner" or because the Titans adjusted their offensive philosophy is debatable. 
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Re: VY
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 07:08:27 pm »
First 6 games:  33.67 passes per game, 26 runs per game
Last 5 games: 25.6 passes per game, 36.6 runs per game

I'm not saying that VY is *not* the catalyst behind the winning streak, because he obviously is a huge part of it.  Whether they're winning now because he's a "winner" or because the Titans adjusted their offensive philosophy is debatable. 

How long before a defense decides to commit to stopping the run and disregard the pass?  If so, will VY show them they're making a huge mistake?  I say let the season play out to see if VY does what a NFL quarterback *must* do... pass the football to keep the defense... the 2009 version of NFL defense... honest. If VY keeps this up, he'll be known as the next Trent Dilfer.

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Re: VY
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 07:11:40 pm »
First 6 games:  33.67 passes per game, 26 runs per game
Last 5 games: 25.6 passes per game, 36.6 runs per game

I'm not saying that VY is *not* the catalyst behind the winning streak, because he obviously is a huge part of it.  Whether they're winning now because he's a "winner" or because the Titans adjusted their offensive philosophy is debatable. 

Has it occurred to you that those extra running plays may come from the fact that the QB is now a gazelle instead of a lead footed octogenarian?    If VY runs 4-5 more plays a game than Collins was, there's your difference right there.

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Re: VY
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 07:58:13 pm »
Has it occurred to you that those extra running plays may come from the fact that the QB is now a gazelle instead of a lead footed octogenarian?    If VY runs 4-5 more plays a game than Collins was, there's your difference right there.

Part of it is Vince running, yes, but a big part of it is the team finally realizing that they have one of the best backs in the league and actually using him a lot.  Instead of trying to pass, pass, pass to a WR corp lacking of a true #1 option, they're going back to their bread and butter.

Johnson went from 16 carries a game on average the first 6 games to over 24 carries a game the last 5. 

Like I said, don't for a second think that I'm taking *any* credit away from Vince, cause either be it from his special "winningness" ability, or from the team changing their play calling to match his (and the team's strengths) better, him being on the field *has* led to the team turning a lost season into a potential playoff team.
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Re: VY
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 08:01:37 pm »
Part of it is Vince running, yes, but a big part of it is the team finally realizing that they have one of the best backs in the league and actually using him a lot.  Instead of trying to pass, pass, pass to a WR corp lacking of a true #1 option, they're going back to their bread and butter.

Johnson went from 16 carries a game on average the first 6 games to over 24 carries a game the last 5. 

Like I said, don't for a second think that I'm taking *any* credit away from Vince, cause either be it from his special "winningness" ability, or from the team changing their play calling to match his (and the team's strengths) better, him being on the field *has* led to the team turning a lost season into a potential playoff team.

Cool.

Honestly, all the trash talking aside, I think Vince has been a little bit luckier than his NFL record suggests of course. 

But I do think that having CJ in the backfield is going to make his job a lot easier.   And don't forget, when he bothers showing up for practice, Land Whale ain't bad either.

The moral, I think, is the Titans were never really an 0-6 team, no more than they're really not a 5-0 team.   What will be interesting is that if they beat the Colts this weekend, going 10-6 is a very real possibility.   They get to play some really shitty teams.