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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Baseball HOF
« on: November 27, 2009, 02:35:45 pm »
Roberto Alomar, Edgar Martinez, Barry Larkin and Fred McGriff are new to the ballot this year's Hall of Fame ballot.
Prominent holdovers  are Mark McGwire, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven.

Also on the ballot for the first time are Kevin Appier, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura and Todd Zeile.

Other holdovers on the list include Harold Baines, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Lee Smith and Alan Trammell.

I think Alomar has a decent chance, Martinez is a long shot. Would like to see Blyleven and Trammell. McGwire... maybe someday.
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Fredia

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 02:47:49 pm »
mcguire is getting his name back in the game. sadly might happen someday

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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 08:06:15 pm »
Alomar and Larkin will get in because they played middle IF positions (well).

If Edgar gets in (he won't) it sets an interesting precedent.   

That Blyleven isn't in is a fucking joke.   Especially with all the ridiculous fucking Yankees that are in from years gone by because they happened to play in the only town with a newspaper for the first 50 years of baseball.
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Limey

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 08:17:22 pm »
They should induct Robin Ventura's face.
 - Nolan Ryan
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 09:05:59 pm »
Quote from: Sphinx Drummond on November 27, 2009, 02:35:45 pm
Roberto Alomar, Edgar Martinez, Barry Larkin and Fred McGriff are new to the ballot this year's Hall of Fame ballot.
Prominent holdovers  are Mark McGwire, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven.

Also on the ballot for the first time are Kevin Appier, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura and Todd Zeile.

Other holdovers on the list include Harold Baines, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Lee Smith and Alan Trammell.

I think Alomar has a decent chance, Martinez is a long shot. Would like to see Blyleven and Trammell. McGwire... maybe someday.

Larkin and Alomar should be elected on the first ballot.
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 10:06:12 pm »
Quote from: Arky Vaughan on November 27, 2009, 09:05:59 pm
Larkin and Alomar should be elected on the first ballot.

Bert should have been elected a decade ago.   

But I think you're right.
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Reuben

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 11:35:05 pm »
Larkin, Alomar, Raines, Trammell, Blyleven all seem worthy to me. Maybe Edgar Martinez?
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Tralfaz

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 01:17:32 am »
Quote from: Limey on November 27, 2009, 08:17:22 pm
They should induct Robin Ventura's face.
 - Nolan Ryan

Brilliniant!

My vote goes to all of the hold overs except maybe Baines.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 09:30:18 am »
Trammell will likely never get in, and it will be a much bigger injustice than Blyleven.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 10:04:24 am »
I don't know why Trammell doesn't get more support either. It'll be interesting to see how much play Alomar's umpire incident gets, and whether that gets lumped in with McGwire's steroid issues in some sort of morality convolution.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 05:12:48 pm »
Quote from: Ron Brand on November 28, 2009, 10:04:24 am
I don't know why Trammell doesn't get more support either. It'll be interesting to see how much play Alomar's umpire incident gets, and whether that gets lumped in with McGwire's steroid issues in some sort of morality convolution.

You can be absolutely ammoral and still question whether someone whose accomplishments were obtained by cheating deserves induction in the Hall of Fame.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 05:17:02 pm »
Quote from: Arky Vaughan on November 28, 2009, 05:12:48 pm
You can be absolutely ammoral and still question whether someone whose accomplishments were obtained by cheating deserves induction in the Hall of Fame.

Exactly, which is why I'll be interested in seeing if the public play is to equate Alomar's behavior with McGwire's, or if there will be some separation that shows up in the voting totals.
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2009, 07:20:39 pm »
Quote from: Ron Brand on November 28, 2009, 05:17:02 pm
Exactly, which is why I'll be interested in seeing if the public play is to equate Alomar's behavior with McGwire's, or if there will be some separation that shows up in the voting totals.

I seriously don't see it.  I think most Americans felt deceived by McGwire, who was always a one trick pony anyway.

Alomar was one of the best all around 2B of the last 50 years (if not ever). 
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Ron Brand

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2009, 07:40:45 pm »
Quote from: Alkie on November 28, 2009, 07:20:39 pm
I seriously don't see it.  I think most Americans felt deceived by McGwire, who was always a one trick pony anyway.

Alomar was one of the best all around 2B of the last 50 years (if not ever).  

He was, but he was also universally reviled at the end of his career, which has been pretty much forgotten in the wake of steroids and that smear attempt by an ex-girlfriend a few months ago.

He'd get my vote if I had one to give, but until I find that Golden Ticket in a Bud! Bar that's not gonna happen.
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2009, 07:47:10 pm »
I really don't think it's even close to the same thing.

Alomar was always kind of a minor prick, so I don't think the general feeling on him was altered as much as you think it was.

Also, he gave me herpes.
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strosrays

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2009, 09:20:25 pm »
Quote from: Reuben on November 27, 2009, 11:35:05 pm
Larkin, Alomar, Raines, Trammell, Blyleven all seem worthy to me. Maybe Edgar Martinez?

I guess Raines is being held up by his involvement with cocaine for awhile there.  That's the only reason I can think of why he isn't already in.
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SaltyParker

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2009, 09:26:21 pm »
Quote from: strosrays on November 28, 2009, 09:20:25 pm
I guess Raines is being held up by his involvement with cocaine for awhile there.  That's the only reason I can think of why he isn't already in.
Raines would be my vote.
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Lefty

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 10:59:02 pm »
Quote from: Sphinx Drummond on November 27, 2009, 02:35:45 pm
Roberto Alomar, Edgar Martinez, Barry Larkin and Fred McGriff Mark McGwire, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven Harold Baines, Don Mattingly, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Lee Smith and Alan Trammell
Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, No, No, No, No, Yes, Yes, Yes
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 11:14:10 pm »
Why McGwire yes but Hawk no?
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Reuben

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2009, 12:31:15 am »
Quote from: strosrays on November 28, 2009, 09:20:25 pm
I guess Raines is being held up by his involvement with cocaine for awhile there.  That's the only reason I can think of why he isn't already in.
I'd be very surprised if the writers still thought about that. It just seems like there's not much "hype" about Tim Raines, and he was overshadowed last year by Rickey Henderson. The voters lately don't seem to know what to do with position players, like Trammell and Raines, who didn't get 500 homers or 3,000 hits but were just great all-around players.
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MusicMan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2009, 04:33:18 pm »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on November 28, 2009, 09:30:18 am
Trammell will likely never get in, and it will be a much bigger injustice than Blyleven.

Unfortunately, you're right on both counts.
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VirtualBob

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 06:22:13 pm »
Quote from: Lefty on November 28, 2009, 10:59:02 pm
Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, Yes, No, No, No, No, No, Yes No, Yes, Yes

Only one change.
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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2009, 08:26:52 am »
Edgar Martinez was the best-hitting DH and will probably get into the Hall of Fame, though not on the first ballot. He had a .312 BA with a .933 OPS. He won 2 batting titles and was named to 7 All-Star games. That's a strong resume.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2009, 10:00:08 am »
Quote from: Houston on November 30, 2009, 08:26:52 am
Edgar Martinez was the best-hitting DH and will probably get into the Hall of Fame, though not on the first ballot. He had a .312 BA with a .933 OPS. He won 2 batting titles and was named to 7 All-Star games. That's a strong resume.

Like it or not, DH's are/have been part of the game for nearly 40 years now.  It was just a matter of time before there was a true DH who put up true HOF numbers.  I think you're right...Martinez eventually gets in.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2009, 11:43:21 am »
I never stopped to think how long it has been around but you're right, it has been 36 years. It took a while for the writers to figure out how to put a value on relief pitchers and I suspect the same will be true for DH's, and I can't think of someone with a better case to make as a DH than Martinez.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2009, 11:58:42 am »
Quote from: Ron Brand on November 30, 2009, 11:43:21 am
I never stopped to think how long it has been around but you're right, it has been 36 years. It took a while for the writers to figure out how to put a value on relief pitchers and I suspect the same will be true for DH's, and I can't think of someone with a better case to make as a DH than Martinez.

Exactly.  If you can make make a spot for a closer, you make a spot for a DH.  Sure they'll have to sort out a new standard, but they will.
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strosrays

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 09:18:41 pm »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on November 30, 2009, 11:58:42 am
Exactly.  If you can make make a spot for a closer, you make a spot for a DH.  Sure they'll have to sort out a new standard, but they will.

I agree with this, grudgingly; but while Martinez and any future DH candidates will be judged largely on the same stats as other non-DH hitters up for election, I assume the main standard/criteria for closers is/will be an exclusive to closers, often misleading, and in some ways an arbitrary made-up stat.  Namely, saves.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 09:50:47 pm »
Quote from: strosrays on November 30, 2009, 09:18:41 pm
I agree with this, grudgingly; but while Martinez and any future DH candidates will be judged largely on the same stats as other non-DH hitters up for election, I assume the main standard/criteria for closers is/will be an exclusive to closers, often misleading, and in some ways an arbitrary made-up stat.  Namely, saves.

Just wait until they start accepting the stat for 'holds' so the middle relievers can get their glory too.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2009, 04:04:13 pm »
Quote from: HudsonHawk on November 30, 2009, 10:00:08 am
Like it or not, DH's are/have been part of the game for nearly 40 years now.  It was just a matter of time before there was a true DH who put up true HOF numbers.  I think you're right...Martinez eventually gets in.

Indeed, if he played 40 years ago, it's not like they wouldn't have found a place for Martinez in the field in order to get him into the line-up. And a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame for their batting records were butchers in the field and would DH quite a bit today. What's worse, taking the field and doing an awful job, or DH-ing?
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2009, 04:06:52 pm »
Quote from: Alkie on November 28, 2009, 07:20:39 pm
I seriously don't see it.  I think most Americans felt deceived by McGwire, who was always a one trick pony anyway.

Hitting a ton of home runs and drawing a ton of walks is two tricks and is more worthy of recognition, if done cleanly, than a guy who has a whole bag of lesser tricks.

Quote
Alomar was one of the best all around 2B of the last 50 years (if not ever).

Joe Morgan?
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homer

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2009, 06:24:50 pm »
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2009, 06:49:40 pm »
Quote from: Arky Vaughan on December 01, 2009, 04:06:52 pm
Joe Morgan?

Hence the use of the phrase "one of".
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2009, 08:37:55 am »
Quote from: Alkie on December 01, 2009, 06:49:40 pm
Hence the use of the phrase "one of".

Well, duh.
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Alkie

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Re: Baseball HOF
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2009, 01:01:22 pm »
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