Are you FUCKING kidding me?

[pravata]

Here's how Phil Rogers of the Stinkeye Tribune chooses to lead off the day,

Wouldn't it be something if Zambrano could give the whining Houston Astros a second helping of no-hit stuff, this time in their own backyard?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-06-rogers-baseball-apr06,0,1807721.column

[Clark in Denver]

You mean Milwaukee isn't the Astros own back yard?

Fuck the fucking Cubs.

[MusicMan]

Rogers' point that McLane fucked up is not without merit.  But that doesn't mean that Selig & Co. did not fuck up by putting this in MIL, nor does it make the Astros' players whiners.

[Andyzipp]

I don't root for injury, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if Zambrano took a line drive from Carlos Lee off his forehead today.

And if it could pinball it's way around the Cubs infield, all the better.

[billemite]

He even had the balls to refer to Miller park as "Wrigley North".

[pravata]

Rogers' point that McLane fucked up is not without merit.  But that doesn't mean that Selig & Co. did not fuck up by putting this in MIL, nor does it make the Astros' players whiners.

What was happening 36 hours before Monday 9/15/2008?  Who would have left their family?

[Gizzmonic]

Here's how Phil Rogers of the Stinkeye Tribune chooses to lead off the day,

Wouldn't it be something if Zambrano could give the whining Houston Astros a second helping of no-hit stuff, this time in their own backyard?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-06-rogers-baseball-apr06,0,1807721.column

Wouldn't it be something if the "Whining" Houston Astros could give Carlos Zambrano a flashback to his pathetic playoff performance in 2008, leaving him sobbing like a little girl behind a towel in the dugout?

[Señor Stan]

Let me get this straight....a team/fanbase/city that blames all of their woes on a goat or a dork wearing oversized headphones is calling somebody a whiner?

[billemite]

Wouldn't it be something if the "Whining" Houston Astros could give Carlos Zambrano a flashback to his pathetic playoff performance in 2008, leaving him sobbing like a little girl behind a towel in the dugout?

It's more likely he would punch a little girl in the dugout.

[Bench]

Let me get this straight....a team/fanbase/city that blames all of their woes on a goat or a dork wearing oversized headphones is calling somebody a whiner?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Gizzmonic]

Let me get this straight....a team/fanbase/city that blames all of their woes on a goat or a dork wearing oversized headphones is calling somebody a whiner?

Speaking of, is anyone going to the game dressed as Steve Bartman?  'Cause that would be awesome!

[MusicMan]

What was happening 36 hours before Monday 9/15/2008?  Who would have left their family?

Right.  Which is why McLane could have canceled the games then.

[pravata]

Right.  Which is why McLane could have canceled the games then.

If you recall, because of Selig's concern about the post season, he was only going to allow one game to be postponed.

[MusicMan]

If you recall, because of Selig's concern about the post season, he was only going to allow one game to be postponed.

I suck.  I did not recall that.

[pravata]

I suck.  I did not recall that.

You don't suck.  That fact was in the insufferable, condescending, self serving "Open Letter" that Selig sent out.  Anyone who got past the first smarmy paragraph was bleeding from the eyes.

[Tralfaz]

Speaking of, is anyone going to the game dressed as Steve Bartman?  'Cause that would be awesome!

I would really like to see a BUNCH of this!

[Noe]

Wouldn't it be something if the "Whining" Houston Astros could give Carlos Zambrano a flashback to his pathetic playoff performance in 2008, leaving him sobbing like a little girl behind a towel in the dugout?

The three games leading up to his no-no, the Chicago faithful (not anyone in Houston) were whining that Cubs, Zambrano especially, were playing horribly and not ready for the playoffs.  The hitters were pathetic, Zambrano looked like he could not throw a breaking pitch to save his life and had no life on his fastball, he look extremely tentative on the mound and very hittable. 

Then Hurrican Ike happened.

And all of a sudden, even Ted Lilly, who is not know for having stuff but is a modern day Bob Knepper, can hold down the Houston Astros to levels of dominance.  So it's really all about the Cub faithful taking a gift from heavens located at the MLB home office and then acting like they had resolved their ills.  I knew there were toast and should have had the cap put into them *before* the playoffs to spare them the humiliation.  But no, they act like they earned it and if you go by 2/3rds of the season, they did.  But if you go by the entire season, they didn't.  They had no business representing anyone or anything in the playoffs.  They were going to be bounced out easily and every one of us could see it coming... a sweep and not a nice one at that.

And it happened.

Now they're acting like the days before and after their infamous Milwaukee series never happened?  Give me a break.

[Astros Fan in Big D]

The excuse of needing to start the postseason on time rings hollow when you look at how MLB handled the playoff schedules once they started.  The real goal seems to have been to preserve the *start* of the playoffs and keep TV/Advertisers happy with a solid date. 

To wit (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/schedule/ps.jsp):
The Dojers wrapped up their series with the Fuckwads on Oct 4, the Phillies finished their first rounder on October 5.  Game 1 of the NLCS took place on Oct 9.

In the AL, both divisional series were finished on Oct 6; the ALCS started on Oct 10. 

3 days off between the end of the divisional rounds and the LCS, including 2 days of no baseball of any kind.  There were also 2 days between the LCS and the WS. 

Where were the worried schedule makers during those off days? 

Bud caved to his moneymakers, and Drayton in turned caved to Bud.  Both of them did a disservice to the Astros and their fans.  For this episode, I hold Drayton in more disdain simply because its not possible for me to have a lower opinion of Bud that I already do. 


 

[pravata]

The excuse of needing to start the postseason on time rings hollow when you look at how MLB handled the playoff schedules once they started.  The real goal seems to have been to preserve the *start* of the playoffs and keep TV/Advertisers happy with a solid date. 

To wit (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/schedule/ps.jsp):
The Dojers wrapped up their series with the Fuckwads on Oct 4, the Phillies finished their first rounder on October 5.  Game 1 of the NLCS took place on Oct 9.

In the AL, both divisional series were finished on Oct 6; the ALCS started on Oct 10. 

3 days off between the end of the divisional rounds and the LCS, including 2 days of no baseball of any kind.  There were also 2 days between the LCS and the WS. 

Where were the worried schedule makers during those off days? 

Bud caved to his moneymakers, and Drayton in turned caved to Bud.  Both of them did a disservice to the Astros and their fans.  For this episode, I hold Drayton in more disdain simply because its not possible for me to have a lower opinion of Bud that I already do. 


 

It seems a confluence of stupid created an unavoidable situation.  What did not have to happen was the Astros being booed as they took the field in Milwaukee.  That is what is inexcusable.

[BlownRanger]

Bud caved to his moneymakers, and Drayton in turned caved to Bud.  Both of them did a disservice to the Astros and their fans.  For this episode, I hold Drayton in more disdain simply because its not possible for me to have a lower opinion of Bud that I already do. 
 

The NFL does a lot to earn the No Fun League nickname, but I've always respected the fact that when the commish or another NFL exec is asked "Aren't you just doing this to make more money?", the reply is always along the lines of "You bet!"

[BizidyDizidy]

The worst part I recall is that Drayton eventually agreed to it after a negotiation on which revenue he got to keep.

[BudGirl]

The worst part I recall is that Drayton eventually agreed to it after a negotiation on which revenue he got to keep.

From what JD told me, Drayton didn't have a choice.  Should he have given the revenue to the Cubs?

[BizidyDizidy]

From what JD told me, Drayton didn't have a choice.  Should he have given the revenue to the Cubs?

He had a ton of choices. The hardest one would've been to tell Bud to fuck himself and declare it a forfeit if he had the balls, they weren't coming to Milwaukee. An easier one would've been to donate the entire gate to hurricane relief. The best thing at the very least would to avoid any appearance that you were selling your team down the river.

[pravata]

He had a ton of choices. The hardest one would've been to tell Bud to fuck himself and declare it a forfeit if he had the balls, they weren't coming to Milwaukee. An easier one would've been to donate the entire gate to hurricane relief. The best thing at the very least would to avoid any appearance that you were selling your team down the river.

Besides your 2 airy fantasies, name 2 out of the "ton" of choices the Astros had for getting the games played. 

[BizidyDizidy]

Besides your 2 airy fantasies, name 2 out of the "ton" of choices the Astros had for getting the games played. 

Why is the second one even close to a fantasy?

ETA: I see the Astros donated $1MM to Ike relief (didn't remember seeing that), so net-net it's way more than whatever revenue they got from that game. No reason not to make the gesture of saying that revenue was all going to relief (vs. having a story come out that you were negotiating revenue before agreeing).

[pravata]

Why is the second one even close to a fantasy?

Because the revenue belonged to the Brewers.  Anyway, your second scenario contradicts the first.  The games had to be played, and it is not reasonable to imagine an MLB team forfeiting 2 games.

[BizidyDizidy]

Because the revenue belonged to the Brewers.  Anyway, your second scenario contradicts the first.  The games had to be played, and it is not reasonable to imagine an MLB team forfeiting 2 games.

Yes, they were obviously separate scenarios.

[pravata]

Why is the second one even close to a fantasy?

ETA: I see the Astros donated $1MM to Ike relief (didn't remember seeing that), so net-net it's way more than whatever revenue they got from that game. No reason not to make the gesture of saying that revenue was all going to relief (vs. having a story come out that you were negotiating revenue before agreeing).

Right, so it doesn't solve the issue of actually playing the games, nor where they were played.

[BizidyDizidy]

Right, so it doesn't solve the issue of actually playing the games, nor where they were played.

My point was that it looked terrible when that factoid came out and he had choices to avoid that.

[BizidyDizidy]

Because the revenue belonged to the Brewers.  Anyway, your second scenario contradicts the first.  The games had to be played, and it is not reasonable to imagine an MLB team forfeiting 2 games.

I seriously doubt Bud would have had the fortitude to actually make them forfeit if Drayton went public saying "The players can't make the games because they need to be with their families."

There were also other options besides playing in Milwaukee; they could've played in another empty stadium (SF, Seattle both have beautiful stadiums that were vacant).

All I disputed was that he had no choices whatsoever.

[BudGirl]

It was either play the games in Milwaukee or forfeit them.  That is what the choices were.

[BizidyDizidy]

It was either play the games in Milwaukee or forfeit them.  That is what the choices were.

I don't doubt Bud said that.

[pravata]

My point was that it looked terrible when that factoid came out and he had choices to avoid that.

It only looked terrible to those with a predisposed attitude towards Mclane.

[BizidyDizidy]

There are two separate but intertwined issues.

1) Should Drayton have allowed the games to be played as he did and did he have any choices.

I don't the right answer about whether he should have; I'm not even sure he could've anticipated how flat the good guys were (the whole thing could've ended up being a polarizing experience that brought them together, who knew for sure). I do think he had choices, but it depended on whether he was willing to stand up to and/or burn bridges with Selig over the issue (see slot money). I know that the outcome was shitty, but I'm open to the possibility that it was the least shitty of a range of terrible outcomes.

2) Should he have let it come out that he was bartering over the gate before agreeing?

I think this is a clear no and was a bad PR mistake (I remember being outraged about this and don't remember the $1MM at all, which is the exact opposite of what should have been).

[pravata]

I seriously doubt Bud would have had the fortitude to actually make them forfeit if Drayton went public saying "The players can't make the games because they need to be with their families."

There were also other options besides playing in Milwaukee; they could've played in another empty stadium (SF, Seattle both have beautiful stadiums that were vacant).

All I disputed was that he had no choices whatsoever.

What were the choices?  Because the options of playing in other ballparks was discussed.   

[BizidyDizidy]

It only looked terrible to those with a predisposed attitude towards Mclane.

I had no pre-existing attitude towards McLane at all and it looked terrible to me. The only real attitude I have towards him now is that he shouldn't give a fuck about fan opinions on how to build a ballclub.

[BizidyDizidy]

What were the choices?  Because the options of playing in other ballparks was discussed.   

My point is that just because it wasn't one of the option Selig offered him, doesn't mean it wasn't a "choice". We are talking about a man who went from loading delivery trucks to building a $1 billion business. I'm pretty sure he knows how to play hardball with people if he wants to.

[pravata]

My point is that just because it wasn't one of the option Selig offered him, doesn't mean it wasn't a "choice". We are talking about a man who went from loading delivery trucks to building a $1 billion business. I'm pretty sure he knows how to play hardball with people if he wants to.

And I'm just as sure he realizes when he has no options.  So you're back to fantasies, the things you seriously doubt and the points  you're trying to make.  Meanwhile these "tons" of other options, name 2.

[BizidyDizidy]

And I'm just as sure he realizes when he has no options.  So you're back to fantasies, the things you seriously doubt and the points  you're trying to make.  Meanwhile these "tons" of other options, name 2.

Remind me why SF and Seattle weren't real options?

[MusicMan]

SF - Weather concerns
SEA - too far to get to FLA for the next series

[pravata]

Remind me why SF and Seattle weren't real options?

Look it up.  These options were considered and rejected. 

[Bench]

SF - Weather concerns
SEA - too far to get to FLA for the next series

What was wrong with Tampa Bay?  Did Kool & the Gang have an encore performance?

[BizidyDizidy]

Look it up.  These options were considered and rejected. 

By Bud Selig? San Francisco was great weather both those days.

What was his plan to make up the games if the A's-Angels or A's-Ranger's series got rained out?

[pravata]

By Bud Selig? San Francisco was great weather both those days.

What was his plan to make up the games if the A's-Angels or A's-Ranger's series got rained out?

Several games were rained out and they were postponed.  Are you just spit balling? 

[BizidyDizidy]

Several games were rained out and they were postponed.  Are you just spit balling? 

No, I just think it's ridiculous to say that Drayton had no choice whatsoever (even if he made the right one).

[pravata]

No, I just think it's ridiculous to say that Drayton had no choice whatsoever (even if he made the right one).

And bringing up choices which were considered and discarded does not advance your argument.  They considered alternate sites, go look up why they were rejected.  The choice, from MLB, was to play the game at a neutral site, they picked the site.  What's ridiculous is to say they had "tons" of options and not be able to come up with one that had not been considered.

[Bench]

And bringing up choices which were considered and discarded does not advance your argument.  They considered alternate sites, go look up why they were rejected.  The choice, from MLB, was to play the game at a neutral site, they picked the site.  What's ridiculous is to say they had "tons" of options and not be able to come up with one that had not been considered.

Same with Round Rock.  They didn't know if the storm would pass through the Austin area, so didn't want to make it the backup plan.  If I recall, UT cancelled its game that weekend too (against Arkansas, maybe?).

[BizidyDizidy]

And bringing up choices which were considered and discarded does not advance your argument.  They considered alternate sites, go look up why they were rejected.  The choice, from MLB, was to play the game at a neutral site, they picked the site.  What's ridiculous is to say they had "tons" of options and not be able to come up with one that had not been considered.

Here is a (partial) list of alternate choices Drayton had:

1) Say they were not going to be able to play at all for the next 2 days and they'll make up the games later if they matter (possible delaying the playoffs)
2) Insist that Milwaukee is not an acceptable site and they will be flying to SF to play the game (As far as I can tell, nowhere on the west coast had bad weather that week).
3) Agree to Milwaukee and play without fans, only television.

Whatever you want to believe, those were all real choices, not fantasies for Drayton. Obviously 1 and 2 ran the risk of forfeit (turns out that wouldn't have been any worse), but I still believe it would've been politically impossible for Selig to do in the wake of a devastating hurricane. Now, I might agree with you that it's a fantasy that Drayton would ever play the kind of hardball required to make these choices, but what do you think a jackass like Mark Cuban would've done in this situation?

[pravata]

Here is a (partial) list of alternate choices Drayton had:

1) Say they were not going to be able to play at all for the next 2 days and they'll make up the games later if they matter (possible delaying the playoffs)
2) Insist that Milwaukee is not an acceptable site and they will be flying to SF to play the game (As far as I can tell, nowhere on the west coast had bad weather that week).
3) Agree to Milwaukee and play without fans, only television.

Whatever you want to believe, those were all real choices, not fantasies for Drayton. Obviously 1 and 2 ran the risk of forfeit (turns out that wouldn't have been any worse), but I still believe it would've been politically impossible for Selig to do in the wake of a devastating hurricane. Now, I might agree with you that it's a fantasy that Drayton would ever play the kind of hardball required to make these choices, but what do you think a jackass like Mark Cuban would've done in this situation?

1, Defy the league? Not playing the games, postponing, was an option.  It was considered and rejected.  Unless Mclane is the Commissioner and has control of the Cubs, not an option.
2, SF, no roof, which was a criteria set by the league for the neutral site.  Dont suggest another site until you look up the criteria.
3. Break a national broadcast contract.  That sounds smart.

You're making shit up, Mark Cuban had nothing to do with the situation as it occured in the real world.

[BizidyDizidy]

1, Defy the league? Not playing the games, postponing, was an option.  It was considered and rejected.  Unless Mclane is the Commissioner and has control of the Cubs, not an option.
2, SF, no roof, which was a criteria set by the league for the neutral site.  Dont suggest another site until you look up the criteria.
3. Break a national broadcast contract.  That sounds smart.

You're making shit up, Mark Cuban had nothing to do with the situation as it occured in the real world.

If your point is that Selig only offered them one option, then we are in agreement

[Filo]

what do you think a jackass like Mark Cuban would've done in this situation?

Woulda whined about it in his blog like a 13 year old girl with a diary

[pravata]

If your point is that Selig only offered them one option, then we are in agreement

My point is that everything youre pretending they didnt think of, they thought of, except the forfeiting ridiculousness of course.  Your issue is you dont agree with what they did.  Neither do I.  I think there was precedent to postpone the series.  But they didnt.  The present thread was started because the media in Chicago think the Astros and their fans whined about what happened.  Far from whining, we were pissed.  Hopefully the fans at the game will remind the league how pissed.

[BizidyDizidy]

My point is that everything youre pretending they didnt think of, they thought of, except the forfeiting ridiculousness of course.  Your issue is you dont agree with what they did.  Neither do I.  I think there was precedent to postpone the series.  But they didnt.  The present thread was started because the media in Chicago think the Astros and their fans whined about what happened.  Far from whining, we were pissed.  Hopefully the fans at the game will remind the league how pissed.

I don't think I thought of anything they didn't. If I came across that way, I didn't intend to. I think there is no question the league office fucked it up. I think there is at least some question Drayton could've done something different, although it would've been a very tough decision (and I think he could've handled the PR side a little better with no cost to him).

I also think that the cubs fans and media are nitwits and assholes, but that doesn't distinguish them from any other fans and media.

[pravata]

I don't think I thought of anything they didn't. If I came across that way, I didn't intend to. I think there is no question the league office fucked it up. I think there is at least some question Drayton could've done something different, although it would've been a very tough decision (and I think he could've handled the PR side a little better with no cost to him).

I also think that the cubs fans and media are nitwits and assholes, but that doesn't distinguish them from any other fans and media.

You typed all that other just to conclude this?  That's a waste of a lot of words and you never explained your first point "He had a ton of choices."  No. He didn't.   Saying you "think" that doesn't make it so.

[BizidyDizidy]

You typed all that other just to conclude this?  That's a waste of a lot of words and you never explained your first point "He had a ton of choices."  No. He didn't.   Saying you "think" that doesn't make it so.

Just because you can't read it somewhere doesn't make it not so.

[pravata]

Just because you can't read it somewhere doesn't make it not so.

Oh fuck off.  Just because you prefer sitting around making shit up to reality doesn't mean anyone should listen to you.

[EasTexAstro]

I don't think I thought of anything they didn't. If I came across that way, I didn't intend to. I think there is no question the league office fucked it up. I think there is at least some question Drayton could've done something different, although it would've been a very tough decision (and I think he could've handled the PR side a little better with no cost to him).

I also think that the cubs fans and media are nitwits and assholes, but that doesn't distinguish them from any other fans and media.

I think it was sad they had to play under the cicumstances, but I think they could have won, too. I think they could have had something happen earlier in the season that made them win a few more games and make those games not matter as much. It didn't happen. Nothing will change. People might have proffitted due to an unfortunate situation. It happens.

I do believe, though, that no one should critisize the Astros or their fans for feeling "unlucky", or whatever you want to call it, for having been through the series of events that seemed to break up a rather good, exciting run. If they want to call it whining, they seem to be the ones bringing up the past in an unfortunate way. "We won, but the Astros and their fans whined about it, so wahwahwah."

As much as I would like to think the worst thing in my life is whether the Astros were treated fairly, I seem to remember worrying about how to take care of my family, my neighbors, my community, and my city first. If the Astros were underperforming for the same reason, good for them. If someone wants to make fun of them for that, they have already lost.

[VirtualBob]

Just because you can't read it somewhere doesn't make it not so.

Amazingly insightful point.  Pretty much supports any wild-eyed conspiracy theory, too.  Very convenient.  Do you think Bud had anything to do with rigging the election?  Or was that Drayton failing to stand up for his home boy, McCain?

[BizidyDizidy]

Amazingly insightful point.  Pretty much supports any wild-eyed conspiracy theory, too.  Very convenient.  Do you think Bud had anything to do with rigging the election?  Or was that Drayton failing to stand up for his home boy, McCain?

What fucking conspiracy theory? All I've said is that Drayton could've told Bud to fuck himself if he wanted to (and accepted the consequences). How anyone can argue with that is beyond me.

[pravata]

What fucking conspiracy theory? All I've said is that Drayton could've told Bud to fuck himself if he wanted to (and accepted the consequences). How anyone can argue with that is beyond me.

You're an infant.

[VirtualBob]

What fucking conspiracy theory? All I've said is that Drayton could've told Bud to fuck himself if he wanted to (and accepted the consequences). How anyone can argue with that is beyond me.

What have you said that even constitutes an argument to respond to?? Go ahead and make stuff up all you want.  You have not even come close to exhausting all the logical possibilities ... just the fools like me who keep seeing the thread pop up to the top of the list and keep forgetting it is all BS.

[Jacksonian]

... just the fools like me who keep seeing the thread pop up to the top of the list and keep forgetting it is all BS.

We're mining for gold.  You have to dig through the useless to get the good stuff.

[BizidyDizidy]

You're an infant.

Edited to remove pointless catty comment.

I honestly couldn't care less about this issue; apologies for wasting so many words on it.

[MusicMan]

All I've said is that Drayton could've told Bud to fuck himself if he wanted to (and accepted the consequences). How anyone can argue with that is beyond me.

Drayton could have seceded entirely from MLB and joined the Independent League.
Drayton could have insisted that the games be played in MMPUS during the hurricane.
Drayton could have hired Jack Bauer to torture Selig until he agreed to his demands.

How anyone could argue with any of these things is beyond me.

[pravata]

Better than librarian I guess.

If you want to think that fine with me.  Be stupid what do I care.

[Jacksonian]

Drayton could have seceded entirely from MLB and joined the Independent League.
Drayton could have insisted that the games be played in MMPUS during the hurricane.
Drayton could have hired Jack Bauer to torture Selig until he agreed to his demands.

How anyone could argue with any of these things is beyond me.

Wait, Jack Bauer's a mercenary?

[MusicMan]

Wait, Jack Bauer's a mercenary?

My bad.

Season 7 SPOLIER:







Drayton could have hired Tony Almeda to torture Selig until he agreed to his demands.

[Jacksonian]

My bad.

Season 7 SPOLIER:







Drayton could have hired Tony Almeda to torture Selig until he agreed to his demands.

Bauer makes sense to me.  Not as a merc, but it's what's best for the country.

Jack Bauer could have tortured Selig into retirement.  Now that's hard to argue with.