Author Topic: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.  (Read 33799 times)

UpTooLate

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1089
    • View Profile
"Go with Christ" - Eric "The Dawg" Cartman

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 08:23:16 am »
Stars... they're just like us.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 09:40:06 am by Bench »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Grab another Coke and let's die

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 10:10:58 am »
are y'all making light of this?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 10:17:10 am »
It's sad that pot is against the law, but it's pretty stupid of someone in that position to put himself in that situation. Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 10:20:33 am »
It's sad that pot is against the law, but it's pretty stupid of someone in that position to put himself in that situation. Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last.

Phelps is dumb for uneccesarily putting his career in jeopardy by placing himself in a position where such a photo could be taken.  Beyond that, it's a yawner of a story.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 10:21:46 am »
I don't think it is sad that pot is against the law. 

It is stupid of anyone to put themself in those situations.

Seriously, what good comes of lighting up?
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 10:22:03 am »
It's sad that pot is against the law, but it's pretty stupid of someone in that position to put himself in that situation. Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last.

no, it is not "sad." not everyone can handle as well as maybe you can. i have seen more than one kid ruined by it.


"Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last." please. does this work when your kids use it?

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2009, 10:22:59 am »
"Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last." please. does this work when your kids use it?


practice what I preach, not what I do?
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

TheWizard

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1072
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 10:26:22 am »
From some of the accounts I read, Phelps seems like he likes to party.
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two

VirtualBob

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5630
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 10:28:07 am »
Phelps is dumb ...

What?  After all those Olympic interviews this comes as a surprise?  He's an amazing athlete with a great work ethic, but what on earth led you to believe he was a mental giant?
Up in the Air

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 10:29:24 am »
From some of the accounts I read, Phelps seems like he likes to party.

He got a DUI after the '04 Olympics.  I guess he needs a little more guidance and maturity regarding appropriate ways to blow off steam after all the intense focus required to prepare for and compete in the Olympics.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:31:06 am by Bench »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 10:29:33 am »
Wow! Didn't mean to open a can o' worms. I don't think smoking pot should be a crime. I'm a libertarian. Simple as that. I agree it's a yawner of a story.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 10:31:09 am »
Wow! Didn't mean to open a can o' worms. I don't think smoking pot should be a crime. I'm a libertarian. Simple as that. I agree it's a yawner of a story.

oh, you're a libertarian. big fucking deal. let me know which drug laws are ok with your group.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 10:31:54 am »
He got a DUI after the '04 Olympics. 

I think that is far more pernicious behavior.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 10:35:21 am »
no, it is not "sad." not everyone can handle as well as maybe you can. i have seen more than one kid ruined by it.



Is alcohol any different?
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

TheWizard

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1072
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 10:36:36 am »
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 10:36:58 am »
I think that is far more pernicious behavior.

Absolutely. 

I guess you could say that he is improving.  Slowly, but nevertheless.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 10:38:54 am »
oh, you're a libertarian. big fucking deal. let me know which drug laws are ok with your group.

If you don't like or can't accept that someone might have a slightly different sense of propriety than your group, that's not my problem.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 10:39:07 am »
Wow! Didn't mean to open a can o' worms. I don't think smoking pot should be a crime. I'm a libertarian. Simple as that. I agree it's a yawner of a story.

I wouldn't call myself a libertarian, but I agree that the costs/benefits of outlawing pot weigh heavily in favor of legalization.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 10:43:06 am »
Is alcohol any different?


Yes.  Alcohol's a lot worse from a health standpoint (although obviously not from a legal standpoint).  Still, this was a stupid thing for Phelps to do.  Strangers are going to get starstruck and snap as many camera phone pics as they can.  Now it's hurting his reputation and his ability to be a sponsor.  That will be a very expensive bong hit (although it will probably enhance his cred as a KFC/Guitar Hero pitchman).
Grab another Coke and let's die

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 10:49:11 am »
Yes.  Alcohol's a lot worse from a health standpoint (although obviously not from a legal standpoint).  Still, this was a stupid thing for Phelps to do.  Strangers are going to get starstruck and snap as many camera phone pics as they can.  Now it's hurting his reputation and his ability to be a sponsor.  That will be a very expensive bong hit (although it will probably enhance his cred as a KFC/Guitar Hero pitchman).

I agree that Phelp's is an idiot. Just think that Jim's point is silly (I've known a lot of youth smokers and a lot of youth drinkers, and it's probably just about as easy for someone to get messed up either way).

ETA: Unless he thinks the best course of action is criminalizing alcohol, which would be a coherent if rare view.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:54:49 am by BizidyDizidy »
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

geezerdonk

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3342
  • a long tradition of existence
    • View Profile
Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 10:49:42 am »
Wow! Didn't mean to open a can o' worms. I don't think smoking pot should be a crime. I'm a libertarian. Simple as that. I agree it's a yawner of a story.
What's your job got to do with anything? Nobody cares what you do for a living.
Go put some books back on the shelves.
E come vivo? Vivo.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 10:51:45 am »
What's your job got to do with anything? Nobody cares what you do for a living.
Go put some books back on the shelves.

Tell me you are kidding.  Libertarian and Librarian are two different things.
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2009, 10:53:32 am »
What's your job got to do with anything? Nobody cares what you do for a living.
Go put some books back on the shelves.


Well, this explains the fucking Dewey Decimal system.

VirtualBob

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5630
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 10:56:21 am »
Tell me you are kidding.  Libertarian and Librarian are two different things.

Please tell me you knew he was kidding.  This whole thread was taking itself too serously before that comment.
Up in the Air

Rebel Jew

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3469
    • View Profile
    • Rebel Jew
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 10:58:17 am »
no, it is not "sad." not everyone can handle as well as maybe you can. i have seen more than one kid ruined by it.


"Still, he ain't the first and wont be the last." please. does this work when your kids use it?


the issue isn't whether marijuana is good or bad for children, but whether making it illegal for everyone is the best way to address this problem.  i know that when i was a kid, and this is true for kids i currently know as well, it is A LOT easier to get marijuana (and other drugs to a lesser extent) than it is to get alcohol, cigarettes, or prescription drugs.

still, phelps should have known better.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:11:53 am by Joey Trum »

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2009, 12:14:17 pm »
the issue isn't whether marijuana is good or bad for children, but whether making it illegal for everyone is the best way to address this problem.  i know that when i was a kid, and this is true for kids i currently know as well, it is A LOT easier to get marijuana (and other drugs to a lesser extent) than it is to get alcohol, cigarettes, or prescription drugs.

still, phelps should have known better.

It's the illegality of it that, ironically, makes it more easily obtainable by those underage.

RE: Phelps, he should be careful if he ever wants to compete in the Olympics again.  They are beyond rigourous in their drug screening.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 12:26:30 pm »

Seriously, what good comes of lighting up?


That pint of Cherry Garcia gets a helluva a lot tastier...

UpTooLate

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1089
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 12:33:47 pm »
are y'all making light of this?

I suppose to some extent I was.  I'm also of the libertarian ilk that thinks the stuff should be legal.  Been awhile since I've had any, but that's beside the point.

Phelps get's a DUI.  Serious shit, but not unheard of from a youngster.  The guy likes to chase titty dancers.  I can't throw stones at that glass house.  But showing up at a college party and taking bong hits is outright idiotic for a guy that has the resources to pay people to make sure that he doesn't do stupid shit like going to college parties and publicly smoke pot.  He needs to be investing in somebody that keeps him OUT of trouble as opposed to being part of the enabling entourage.

As somebody mentioned, that is going to be a VERY expensive bong hit.  My interest in the story is a young guy that can turn a good performance at the Olympics into millions of dollars and he pisses it away in ONE picture.

Your question as to where the line is drawn as to what should and should not be legal is a damn good one.  However, it seems that back a hundred years or so ago when you could go to the pharmacy and legally pick up laudanum, cocaine, and just about anything else your dollar could buy, there was no rampant abuse problem.  At least not on the scale as we see today.  Prohibition was a failure and the legalization of alcohol has had it's downsides.  However, are the downsides greater than the organized crime and other issues that accompanied the item being illegal?
"Go with Christ" - Eric "The Dawg" Cartman

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 12:40:04 pm »
Your question as to where the line is drawn as to what should and should not be legal is a damn good one.  However, it seems that back a hundred years or so ago when you could go to the pharmacy and legally pick up laudanum, cocaine, and just about anything else your dollar could buy, there was no rampant abuse problem.  At least not on the scale as we see today.  Prohibition was a failure and the legalization of alcohol has had it's downsides.  However, are the downsides greater than the organized crime and other issues that accompanied the item being illegal?

Pharmacy?  There was actual coke in the Coke!
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2009, 02:11:48 pm »
I saw a ESPN update at lunch.  Speedo has publicly stated it will not drop Phelps over this incident.
Grab another Coke and let's die

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 02:19:23 pm »
I saw a ESPN update at lunch.  Speedo has publicly stated it will not drop Phelps over this incident.

Phelps may or may not have dropped his Speedo during the incident.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 02:20:51 pm »
Pot is so commonly accepted as a rite of youth passage that I don't think a pic of Phelps huffing on a bong will have a hugely negative effect on his endorsement earnings.

Lurch

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5931
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 02:32:13 pm »
Pot is so commonly accepted as a rite of youth passage that I don't think a pic of Phelps huffing on a bong will have a hugely negative effect on his endorsement earnings.

I'm willing to bet Visa and/or McDonald's disagrees
I wish the first word I had said when I was born was 'quote'. Then before I die, I could say, 'unquote.' --Steven Wright

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 02:43:48 pm »
Pot is so commonly accepted as a rite of youth passage

This takes me completely by surprise.  Do you have a child?  If so, are you OK with this "rite of passage"?  I would have gotten my ass kicked if my dad had ever caught me with or heard of me smoking pot...and I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances.  I do not know of anyone who accepts an illegal drug of any kind as a rite of passage.  Guess out here in the sticks folks are not as sophisticated...but I will never condone something that could land my child in jail.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 02:48:10 pm »
This takes me completely by surprise.  Do you have a child?  If so, are you OK with this "rite of passage"?  I would have gotten my ass kicked if my dad had ever caught me with or heard of me smoking pot...and I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances.  I do not know of anyone who accepts an illegal drug of any kind as a rite of passage.  Guess out here in the sticks folks are not as sophisticated...but I will never condone something that could land my child in jail.

Again, underage drinking could get a child thrown in jail but it's almost certainly a common right of passage. That's not to say you shouldn't kick the kids ass; that's what parents do. What your kids do is try and not let you find out about it.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2009, 02:48:32 pm »
Nope, I don't have a kid. Yes, I do think it's a rite of passage, just like sex and alcohol.

Underage drinking and underage fucking are far more worrisome to me than kids experimenting with marijuana.  

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2009, 02:48:42 pm »
This takes me completely by surprise.  Do you have a child?  If so, are you OK with this "rite of passage"?  I would have gotten my ass kicked if my dad had ever caught me with or heard of me smoking pot...and I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances.  I do not know of anyone who accepts an illegal drug of any kind as a rite of passage.  Guess out here in the sticks folks are not as sophisticated...but I will never condone something that could land my child in jail.

Wouldn't you do the same thing for your kid speeding, drinking underage, having sex, vandalizing, etc?  These are all considered rites of passage.  Risky behavior.  It's supposed to piss off parents.
Grab another Coke and let's die

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2009, 02:49:49 pm »
I do not know of anyone who accepts an illegal drug of any kind as a rite of passage. 

Actually, this statement is 100% false...I do know a a few that probably think this way, but they would be the last people I would use as parenting role models

JackAstro

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3824
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2009, 02:53:49 pm »
Actually, this statement is 100% false...I do know a a few that probably think this way, but they would be the last people I would use as parenting role models

Are you arguing with yourself?
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
Say hi on the Twitter

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2009, 03:01:25 pm »
Wouldn't you do the same thing for your kid speeding, drinking underage, having sex, vandalizing, etc?  These are all considered rites of passage.  Risky behavior.  It's supposed to piss off parents.

I guess I fail to understand "rite of passage".  None of those things have to be done in order to become a man (even the sex part if you intend to be a priest).  I will take my kids car away if he speeds, ground his ass if he drinks, try to educate him the best I can about sex, and just kick his ass if he vandalizes something.  Illegal behavior cannot be condoned or acepted in a functional family, IMO.  I have a feeling any argument to this will be like pissing into the wind...

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2009, 03:02:44 pm »
Are you arguing with yourself?

No, I just thought about it more carefully after I posted and wanted to clarify.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2009, 03:03:56 pm »
I guess I fail to understand "rite of passage".  None of those things have to be done in order to become a man (even the sex part if you intend to be a priest).  I will take my kids car away if he speeds, ground his ass if he drinks, try to educate him the best I can about sex, and just kick his ass if he vandalizes something.  Illegal behavior cannot be condoned or acepted in a functional family, IMO.  I have a feeling any argument to this will be like pissing into the wind...

How old are your kids?
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

geezerdonk

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3342
  • a long tradition of existence
    • View Profile
Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2009, 03:07:47 pm »
Nope, I don't have a kid. Yes, I do think it's a rite of passage, just like sex and alcohol.

Underage drinking and underage fucking are far more worrisome to me than kids experimenting with marijuana.  

To my way of thinking, getting a driver's license, getting your first job, getting confirmed, going to college, joining the military, doing missionary or charity work are rites of passage. Drinking, smoking dope and screwing is just plain old fucking up.  
E come vivo? Vivo.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2009, 03:09:18 pm »
I guess I fail to understand "rite of passage".  None of those things have to be done in order to become a man (even the sex part if you intend to be a priest).  I will take my kids car away if he speeds, ground his ass if he drinks, try to educate him the best I can about sex, and just kick his ass if he vandalizes something.  Illegal behavior cannot be condoned or acepted in a functional family, IMO.  I have a feeling any argument to this will be like pissing into the wind...

I see what you're saying. I'm using the phrase loosely and not injecting any positive meaning into it like a baptism or a bar mitzvah. I'm simply being realistic--most kids today will experiment with sex, alcohol, and drugs. Not unlike my high school years...

JaneDoe

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 8603
  • Missing in Action
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2009, 03:10:04 pm »
To my way of thinking, getting a driver's license, getting your first job, getting confirmed, going to college, joining the military, doing missionary or charity work are rites of passage. Drinking, smoking dope and screwing is just plain old fucking up.  

well said
"My hammy is a little tight. I wish I was like Ausmus. He's Jewish and isn't allowed to have a pulled hamstring."

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2009, 03:11:37 pm »
How old are your kids?

I have only a 3 & 1/2 year old, but him aging will not change my opinion.  And nobody here will, either, so saying that my opinion will change or any other like argument will fall on deaf ears.  I use my parents as role models and none of the stated behaviors were condoned, and they sure as hell were not viewed as any kind of "rite of passage".

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2009, 03:13:23 pm »
Underage drinking and underage fucking are far more worrisome to me than kids experimenting with marijuana.  

This is like saying that a pitcher's high numbers of hits and walks allowed are far more worrisome than his total lack of command of his breaking ball.  It's not like they're unrelated.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2009, 03:18:17 pm »
I have only a 3 & 1/2 year old, but him aging will not change my opinion.  And nobody here will, either, so saying that my opinion will change or any other like argument will fall on deaf ears.  I use my parents as role models and none of the stated behaviors were condoned, and they sure as hell were not viewed as any kind of "rite of passage".

I don't know that anyone is saying parent's should condone it - I would just say that you should be aware that no matter how good of a job you do, there is a very high likelihood that your son will probably engage in one or more of the aforementioned "rites of passage" at some point. 95% of the time, when parents think there kids don't do any of that, they are just naive (and probably at least half of the exceptions involve some pretty socially awkward kids).

Granted, this is just from my experience on the youth side of it...
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2009, 03:22:43 pm »
Are you arguing with yourself?

Rebuttal, Part 1

Part 2

(Can't find the entire thing.)

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2009, 03:24:38 pm »
I guess I fail to understand "rite of passage".  None of those things have to be done in order to become a man (even the sex part if you intend to be a priest).  I will take my kids car away if he speeds, ground his ass if he drinks, try to educate him the best I can about sex, and just kick his ass if he vandalizes something.  Illegal behavior cannot be condoned or acepted in a functional family, IMO.  I have a feeling any argument to this will be like pissing into the wind...

Yeah, I'm not saying any of those things are required or advised to "become a man."   You should be keeping your kid in line, definitely.  Regardless, risky behavior is part of becoming a man in all cultures...
Grab another Coke and let's die

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2009, 03:32:06 pm »
Yeah, I'm not saying any of those things are required or advised to "become a man."   You should be keeping your kid in line, definitely.  Regardless, risky behavior is part of becoming a man in all cultures...

See 00, 3
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2009, 03:45:46 pm »
Yeah, I'm not saying any of those things are required or advised to "become a man."   You should be keeping your kid in line, definitely.  Regardless, risky behavior is part of becoming a man in all cultures...

You know, I thouht about a long response and decided to take a different tact.  That is pure macho BULLSHIT!!!  Sorry, but that's what it is....
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

EasTexAstro

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5748
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2009, 04:18:47 pm »
You know, I thouht about a long response and decided to take a different tact.  That is pure macho BULLSHIT!!!  Sorry, but that's what it is....

Long response...yeah....

I'll just say "Amen" to this comment.
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2009, 04:33:39 pm »
That is pure macho BULLSHIT!!!  Sorry, but that's what it is....

As opposed to, "I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances."
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2009, 04:36:22 pm »
You know, I thouht about a long response and decided to take a different tact.  That is pure macho BULLSHIT!!!  Sorry, but that's what it is....

I agree.  However, pure macho bullshit is and has always been celebrated in our society.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.  On the positive side, at least we don't have to repeatedly subject ourselves to the most painful insect sting on the planet to earn our Man-wings.
Grab another Coke and let's die

Rebel Jew

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3469
    • View Profile
    • Rebel Jew
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2009, 04:40:19 pm »
ground his ass if he drinks, try to educate him the best I can about sex, and just kick his ass if he vandalizes something.  

yeah, that'll learn him not to drink.  just ground his ass.  he'll never want to drink again!

and i agree.  kick his ass all day if he vandalizes something.  whatever urge he had will be ass-kicked right out of him.
 

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2009, 04:52:10 pm »
no, it is not "sad." not everyone can handle as well as maybe you can. i have seen more than one kid ruined by it.


Every kid I ever knew who got carried away by the drug culture and had his/her life vastly altered by it, and there were a few, was going to get fucked up anyway.  If there wasn't any weed, they would have found something else.  Because a lot of the time the root of the problem had little to do with whatever substance was being abused, and a whole lot to do with a seriously fucked up home life.  If you want to keep your kid off of drugs, don't spend all your energy focusing on the drugs.  Give them a solid, secure base to operate from, as loving a home as you can, and they'll probably be all right.  There will always be exceptions, but for the most part, from what I've seen, it works.

Also, anyone who thinks they can keep a teenager from doing anything either forgets being a teenager themselves, and or has never raised one.  You have to start early with them.  Once they are 13 or 14, they are pretty much what they are going to be.

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2009, 04:55:27 pm »
yeah, that'll learn him not to drink.  just ground his ass.  he'll never want to drink again!

and i agree.  kick his ass all day if he vandalizes something.  whatever urge he had will be ass-kicked right out of him.
 

You can make fun all you want, but I had a certain amount of fear of my parents growing up.  Getting caught drinking or smoking not so much (groundable offenses...cant really drink or smoke when you are confined to your house), but if I were to steal, vandalize, do drugs or the like (criminal activities)...I was afraid of how my dad would react.  I never did those things.  I am not sure my dad would have ever done anything violent to me, no matter what I did.  Actually, now that I am older I am pretty much 100% sure he would have never "kicked my ass", and I will nto ever do that to my boy...but the fear of that possibility is not always a terrible thing.  I guess you send your children to time out when they come home high as a kite or steal a car.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2009, 04:55:47 pm »
There's nothing wrong with good old fear instilled by a parent in a child.

I didn't (and still haven't) tried one illegal substance, be it pot, coke, ludes, mushrooms, et al, while I was living under my parents roof. 

I didn't drink until college.

It was all because I really did believe that my mother might kill me. 

She was raised by carneys.  They know how to kill a man slowly.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2009, 04:57:34 pm »

I didn't (and still haven't) tried one illegal substance, be it pot, coke, ludes, mushrooms, et al, while I was living under my parents roof. 

I didn't drink until college.


Do "ludes" really exist?  Do they come in pill form? 
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

BatGirl

  • Contributor
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2009, 04:59:50 pm »
yeah, that'll learn him not to drink.  just ground his ass.  he'll never want to drink again!

and i agree.  kick his ass all day if he vandalizes something.  whatever urge he had will be ass-kicked right out of him.
 

you're probably right
but the kid will likely learn two lessons:
vandalism = wrong
and
purposely hurting people that you love = okay
..because chickens are decent people.

UpTooLate

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1089
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2009, 05:00:12 pm »
Yeah, I'm not saying any of those things are required or advised to "become a man."   You should be keeping your kid in line, definitely.  Regardless, risky behavior is part of becoming a man in all cultures...

I have to agree with this statement.  Boys (children) have and always will likely engage in more risky behavior than girls.  It is prevalent in almost all cultures.  It's also encouraged.  "Walk it off, don't cry"...... "If that bully lays a hand on you, punch his lights out"....etc.  Not to be too flippant here, but parents aren't worried that their son is a slut, they are worried if he is wrapping the package and not starting a family at age 15 or catching a STD.

Where this argument got off track was with the statement "right of passage".  Life is just a cafeteria line. You make your choices and live with the consequences of those choices.  Those choices will be influenced mostly by parental role models, education, religion, and the crowd you  run with.  The only right of passage in this country is turning 18.  Or 21 if you want to drink and gamble.

It's tough to raise a child in a society that largely glorifies all the negative aforementioned behavior in movies, television, and internet.  Sending your kid to private school only provides him/her access to to more expensive drugs and more lavish parties.  I salute any parent that can navigate their child through the rough waters without getting wet, but I can't completely blame them for not being able to shield their kids from all the crap that is so readily available at every public or private school in every village, town, or city in this county.
"Go with Christ" - Eric "The Dawg" Cartman

Taras Bulba

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3988
    • View Profile
    • Wing Attack Plan R
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2009, 05:01:04 pm »
There's nothing wrong with good old fear instilled by a parent in a child.

I didn't (and still haven't) tried one illegal substance, be it pot, coke, ludes, mushrooms, et al, while I was living under my parents roof. 

I didn't drink until college.

It was all because I really did believe that my mother might kill me. 

She was raised by carneys.  They know how to kill a man slowly.

Art Carney was one mean bastard.  Always carried a knife and never gave reach arounds.
Purity of Essence

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2009, 05:02:07 pm »
Has Michael Phelps' helicopter mom weighed in yet?

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2009, 05:05:58 pm »
It's tough to raise a child in a society that largely glorifies all the negative aforementioned behavior in movies, television, and internet.  Sending your kid to private school only provides him/her access to to more expensive drugs and more lavish parties.  I salute any parent that can navigate their child through the rough waters without getting wet, but I can't completely blame them for not being able to shield their kids from all the crap that is so readily available at every public or private school in every village, town, or city in this county.

You do the best you can to teach them and then hope they make the right decisions when the time comes.  It's all you really can do, short of homeschooling.

GreatBagwellsBeard

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2990
  • The damn paterfamilias
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2009, 05:12:47 pm »
You do the best you can to teach them and then hope they make the right decisions when the time comes.  It's all you really can do, short of homeschooling.

Speaking as a former homeschooler, when kids raised with that kind of sheltering start acting up (and I'm not saying that all do, or even most) it's 10X worse than their public or private school counterparts.  I do agree with your setup statement, though, Andy.
Drinking for two.

“I want to paint a mural of Houston for the kids, but I’m terrible at drawing swamp humidity"

juliogotay

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8738
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2009, 05:31:13 pm »

Well, this explains the fucking Dewey Decimal system.





That is funny. Thanks, I needed that.

Rebel Jew

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3469
    • View Profile
    • Rebel Jew
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2009, 05:39:49 pm »
You can make fun all you want, but I had a certain amount of fear of my parents growing up.  Getting caught drinking or smoking not so much (groundable offenses...cant really drink or smoke when you are confined to your house), but if I were to steal, vandalize, do drugs or the like (criminal activities)...I was afraid of how my dad would react.  I never did those things.  I am not sure my dad would have ever done anything violent to me, no matter what I did.  Actually, now that I am older I am pretty much 100% sure he would have never "kicked my ass", and I will nto ever do that to my boy...but the fear of that possibility is not always a terrible thing.  I guess you send your children to time out when they come home high as a kite or steal a car.

sorry about my earlier sarcasm.  what i disagree with is the idea that you can just punish a negative behavior right out of a child, whether the punishment is time out or a belt-lashing.  i think it's misguided to assume that all teenaged misbehavior is the result of limit-testing or disrespect for law and authority, which is what i think is being assumed if you go wholly with the fear-instilling strategy.  obviously limit-setting and respect for authority are important things to instill, but the reasons behind behaviors like drug use and vandalism are more complex than that, or at least they were for me and seem to be for most kids i know and teach. 


chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2009, 07:18:17 pm »

Every kid I ever knew who got carried away by the drug culture and had his/her life vastly altered by it, and there were a few, was going to get fucked up anyway.  If there wasn't any weed, they would have found something else.  Because a lot of the time the root of the problem had little to do with whatever substance was being abused, and a whole lot to do with a seriously fucked up home life.  If you want to keep your kid off of drugs, don't spend all your energy focusing on the drugs.  Give them a solid, secure base to operate from, as loving a home as you can, and they'll probably be all right.  There will always be exceptions, but for the most part, from what I've seen, it works.

Also, anyone who thinks they can keep a teenager from doing anything either forgets being a teenager themselves, and or has never raised one.  You have to start early with them.  Once they are 13 or 14, they are pretty much what they are going to be.

In a thread that contains some truly idiotic thinking I would like to commend the post above for containing, so far as I can tell, no idiocy whatever. Quite the opposite, actually.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2009, 10:03:21 pm »
As opposed to, "I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances."

I didn't say that but if that's what my son happens to think under that circumstance, I could probably live with it.  More than anything, he will know what it means to disappoint a parent.  I'm not one who believes my child must have full knowledge of every mistake I made to not make the same mistake himself.  And I expect that he will know when I set a boundary for him, it's done with his well being in mind.  I haven't bullied him yet and I have no intention of starting but he will know consequences to his actions and from there, he'll have to figure it out for himself when he's on his own.

There will always be kids who will find ways to fill that void that comes from bad home life etc... I'm no expert and by no means can I speak in detail about the vast and varied roots of addiction.  There are just far too many reasons.  But we aren't talking about addictive behavior, we're discussing smart decisions.  And if you are a million dollar endorsement athlete, decision number one is don't jeopardize these endorsements unless you are willing to accept the consequence of losing them and that comfy lifestyle it buys. 

Sadly, that lesson will not be learned here because Speedo isn't giving up on a cash cow!  Hell no!  What's a little dubage?  All the kids do it these days.  We'll see what his other backers have to say shortly.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2009, 12:03:22 am »
You guys realize that swimmers are international stars, right? Like, most other countries idolize swimmers more than the US does? And you do realize that most other developed nations, for example those of western Europe as well as Australia and New Zealand and, of course, Canada have far less restrictive attitudes towards marijuana consumption than does the US? In other words, most countries that care about swimmers are not likely to care about a swimmer taking a bong hit. You know that, right?

I do not, as Barbara Walters might say, smoke weed. But you Puritans need to get a grip. Seriously. I sincerely believe that your anti-drug hysteria is contributing more to the problem than it is contributing to any sort of solution.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2009, 05:45:07 am »
I didn't say that but if that's what my son happens to think under that circumstance, I could probably live with it.  More than anything, he will know what it means to disappoint a parent.  I'm not one who believes my child must have full knowledge of every mistake I made to not make the same mistake himself.  And I expect that he will know when I set a boundary for him, it's done with his well being in mind.  I haven't bullied him yet and I have no intention of starting but he will know consequences to his actions and from there, he'll have to figure it out for himself when he's on his own.


How is instilling fear of physical punishment in your son not "pure macho BULLSHIT!!!"?
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2009, 08:28:45 am »
How is instilling fear of physical punishment in your son not "pure macho BULLSHIT!!!"?

Where do you get "instilling fear of physical punishment?"  Do us both a favor and drop the "physical".  There will be punishment, but whether it's a spanking, grounding, loss of privilege, or whatever.  I'm pretty sure spanking stops being effective around the time it no longer imparts any shame, and yes I want them ashamed of bad behavior.  Just to be clear, I've spanked my 5 yr old maybe 4 or 5 times in his entire life. 

If you think behavior that violates the law is a "rite of passage" or "is just something kids do" then we really have no way of coming to an agreement on this subject.  Will my son know there are consequences to his actions?  The simple answer is yes.  Whether that consequence comes from me, my wife, a family member, a family friend, a teacher, or even a law enforcement official.  My plan may seem simplistic or naive, I suppose.  But his ability to make decisions and take risks when appropriate, beyond "having a good time", is my goal.  If that strikes you as macho bullshit, then so be it. 

I do want to make clear that I have no intention of "controlling" his every move or constantly hovering over him.  As he gets older, I have to trust he will do the right thing and behave in the manner he was raised.  I also know that he will make mistakes.   But I will ask him to learn from those mistakes, preferably before any lasting harm is done.  The same goes for his younger brother, needless to say.  If any of these goals are achieved as a result of them being afraid of my response, as I said before, I can live with that.  Just don't assume my response will be a beating, if you don't mind. 
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2009, 08:39:42 am »
Where do you get "instilling fear of physical punishment?"  Do us both a favor and drop the "physical".  There will be punishment, but whether it's a spanking, grounding, loss of privilege, or whatever.  I'm pretty sure spanking stops being effective around the time it no longer imparts any shame, and yes I want them ashamed of bad behavior.  Just to be clear, I've spanked my 5 yr old maybe 4 or 5 times in his entire life. 

If you think behavior that violates the law is a "rite of passage" or "is just something kids do" then we really have no way of coming to an agreement on this subject.  Will my son know there are consequences to his actions?  The simple answer is yes.  Whether that consequence comes from me, my wife, a family member, a family friend, a teacher, or even a law enforcement official.  My plan may seem simplistic or naive, I suppose.  But his ability to make decisions and take risks when appropriate, beyond "having a good time", is my goal.  If that strikes you as macho bullshit, then so be it. 

I do want to make clear that I have no intention of "controlling" his every move or constantly hovering over him.  As he gets older, I have to trust he will do the right thing and behave in the manner he was raised.  I also know that he will make mistakes.   But I will ask him to learn from those mistakes, preferably before any lasting harm is done.  The same goes for his younger brother, needless to say.  If any of these goals are achieved as a result of them being afraid of my response, as I said before, I can live with that.  Just don't assume my response will be a beating, if you don't mind. 

I just found it odd that you would attack a somewhat general, and subjective cultural statement as pure macho bullshit, but ignore, and eventually kind of condone a threat of an ass-kicking against someone's child. It just didn't fit, that's all.
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2009, 09:34:22 am »
I just found it odd that you would attack a somewhat general, and subjective cultural statement as pure macho bullshit, but ignore, and eventually kind of condone a threat of an ass-kicking against someone's child. It just didn't fit, that's all.

Because I don't think taking drugs or underage alcohol consumption have anything to do with becoming a man other than they are common mistakes by young males on their way to becoming a man.  The key is respecting rules, even if you object to them and knowing the correct way to voice that objection instead of just rationalizing bad decisions (i.e. Pot isn't as bad as alcohol so it should be legal, therefore it's okay if I smoke it.  That logic is more than a little self-serving, even if I happen to agree with the legality question). 

As for ass-kicking, my parents didn't beat me.  But I did get a belt taken to me, and on a few occassions it was in public.  By all rights, I had defied my parents and was behaving badly.  I don't think that's something I would ever do, personally, but I suspect if I did, the cops would be at my door.  I don't think the public whipping is a good idea on the whole, but neither is the over-sensitivity to spanking etc...   
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2009, 09:49:39 am »
As for ass-kicking, my parents didn't beat me.  But I did get a belt taken to me, and on a few occassions it was in public.  

Really, really not understanding these two statements together.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2009, 09:50:00 am »
Because I don't think taking drugs or underage alcohol consumption have anything to do with becoming a man other than they are common mistakes by young males on their way to becoming a man.

I agree. But, all Gizzmonic said was risky behavior was a part of becoming a man. That is a very general statement, and I would say true, for the most part. Now, he was eluding to the subject of illegal behaviors, but he did not specify, and you jumped on it. sporadic said flat-out he would kick his son's ass if he was caught just taking a bong hit but you passed on that. That's all I'm addressing.
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2009, 11:31:40 am »
Really, really not understanding these two statements together.

Different times I suppose.  I don't see that as abuse or a beating.  If it had been more than one or two whacks, maybe.  Or if it was done to inflict lasting harm or out of anger.  I know that's hard to fathom but my parents were always measured and if it got that far, you can be certain they tried a number of alternatives before resorting to that.
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2009, 11:36:07 am »

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a teenager to not get into things he/she shouldn't; but either way, a parent should probably have it worked out ahead of time what the response will be, if they do.  And if it is a two-parent home, both should absolutely be on the same page and be steadfast about staying there.  The very first thing a teenager will do in that situation, and they are very good at it, is look for a chink in the armor, and then start playing one parent against the other, in hopes of a better outcome for himself.  That's one reason why I think disciplinary decisions made on the fly are usually the ones that turn out the worst; if there is no coherent outline of what is right and wrong and a consistent pattern of how various transgressions will be addressed, a kid will just get confused.  And who can blame them?

How someone disciplines their child is their own business.  Not only is there little concensus on precisely what the methods should be, but the results vary widely regardless of child-rearing style.  I think the latter is because there are a lot of factors influencing a child outside of whatever their parents are trying to impart to them; that is a whole other subject, but one thing I would advocate is paying a lot of attention to who they hang out with, because at that age their peers have a lot more influence on them than their parents do.

Anyway, I think it would be crazy to say, "This is the right way to discipline a kid, that is the wrong way," beyond the most general characterizations.

But again, whether one hits one's kids or not, the important thing is to start with them when they are young, and be as consistent and judicious and fair meting out the punishment after that as you can be.  If you are still trying to kick a teenager's ass to get him/her to do right, I don't think your approach is working.

. . .the key is respecting rules, even if you object to them and knowing the correct way to voice that objection instead of just rationalizing bad decisions. . .

I agree with this, mostly.  I would probably say the key is not so much respecting the rules, but respecting what might happen to you if you break them.  I don't have a lot of respect for rules myself, beyond the basic, universal, perhaps God-given ones; and I think it would be a disservice to my kids to teach them to follow rules blindly.  Understand what they are for, follow them if you will, and if you decide to break them, don't expect to get away with it; because people like enforcing rules on other people, whether either personally believes in them or not.

The one thing I am really hard core about is making them understand that when they fuck up, blaming anyone or anything else is not an option.  That kind of self-delusion drives me crazy.  At least be big enough to accept the responsibilty for your actions.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2009, 11:41:03 am »
Gizzmonic said was risky behavior was a part of becoming a man. That is a very general statement, and I would say true, for the most part.

this is BS, imo, and some of the stuff on this thread implying that illegal drug use is just part of being a man is very disturbing to me, especially when persons whom i otherwise respect say it. marijuana is an illegal drug, and i have seen it ruin kids. it had a powerful negative effect on one of mine. calling it "weed" may demonstrate that the writers are hip and cool, but i think you are neither, not that you care. i think you are condoning illegal behavior, and i think that is reprehensible.

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2009, 11:52:33 am »
this is BS, imo, and some of the stuff on this thread implying that illegal drug use is just part of being a man is very disturbing to me, especially when persons whom i otherwise respect say it. marijuana is an illegal drug, and i have seen it ruin kids. it had a powerful negative effect on one of mine. calling it "weed" may demonstrate that the writers are hip and cool, but i think you are neither, not that you care. i think you are condoning illegal behavior, and i think that is reprehensible.


I'm not condoning illegal behavior. If the implication is there then I want to clarify. I was merely trying to point out that a parent stating he will kick his son's ass, regardless of it's intended meaning, is reprehensible in my book.

There are all types of 'risky' behavior and all do not involve illegal acts. IMO, risk-taking is a large part of becoming a man.
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2009, 12:02:53 pm »
Really, really not understanding these two statements together.

Not that it could happen any longer, but a spanking with a belt or a strap, is hardly a beating.  And it's one of those "I know it when I see it things".

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2009, 12:18:16 pm »
Not that it could happen any longer, but a spanking with a belt or a strap, is hardly a beating.  And it's one of those "I know it when I see it things".

Depends on which end of the belt you get hit with, and where.  And how in control of their anger the person doing the "spanking" is.

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2009, 12:26:56 pm »
Not that it could happen any longer, but a spanking with a belt or a strap, is hardly a beating.  And it's one of those "I know it when I see it things".

You must be right on the "not that it could happen any longer", because if I saw someone taking a belt or strap to their child in public, I would be intervening, forcefully.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2009, 12:27:45 pm »
I'm not going to touch the whole child-rearing issue, I don't have kids and even if I did, it's none of my business.

What I will say is that every society has rituals for passing in to manhood.  Even if they are a little more sublimated than the Peruvian tribe  I linked to earlier.  Risky behavior-including speeding, fighting, drinking, smoking, sex etc are encouraged as ways to prove maturity and masculinity.  We celebrate football despite the fact that every year it ends up crippling and/or killing boys.  We let 16-year-olds get behind the wheel, even though the highway is probably the most dangerous place you can be in a stable, modern country.

I'm not advocating any of the behaviors I described, I'm just pointing out that right or wrong, they are a part of growing up.  Good kids can do stupid things, I know I did (although smoking weed wasn't one of them).  Marijuana, in and of itself, is not the assassin of youth.  Kids shouldn't be doing it (no matter what your views on legalization) but doesn't ruin people ex nihilo. Yes, we all know somebody from high school that seemed bright, then was "smart, but hanging with the wrong crowd," and eventually just became a part of the wrong crowd.  You could say that about the hard drinkers, the street racing guys (I know one who's no longer with us because of his racing habit), the "stud" who's now a teenage father as well.  The drug is just another avenue for risky behavior. 
Grab another Coke and let's die

Ebby Calvin

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3595
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2009, 01:42:19 pm »
I'm not going to touch the whole child-rearing issue, I don't have kids and even if I did, it's none of my business.

What I will say is that every society has rituals for passing in to manhood.  Even if they are a little more sublimated than the Peruvian tribe  I linked to earlier.  Risky behavior-including speeding, fighting, drinking, smoking, sex etc are encouraged as ways to prove maturity and masculinity.  We celebrate football despite the fact that every year it ends up crippling and/or killing boys.  We let 16-year-olds get behind the wheel, even though the highway is probably the most dangerous place you can be in a stable, modern country.

I'm not advocating any of the behaviors I described, I'm just pointing out that right or wrong, they are a part of growing up.  Good kids can do stupid things, I know I did (although smoking weed wasn't one of them).  Marijuana, in and of itself, is not the assassin of youth.  Kids shouldn't be doing it (no matter what your views on legalization) but doesn't ruin people ex nihilo. Yes, we all know somebody from high school that seemed bright, then was "smart, but hanging with the wrong crowd," and eventually just became a part of the wrong crowd.  You could say that about the hard drinkers, the street racing guys (I know one who's no longer with us because of his racing habit), the "stud" who's now a teenage father as well.  The drug is just another avenue for risky behavior. 

I'm reluctant to get in on this conversation, but a few thoughts on this post.  I think where people (people meaning "I" in this context) get hung up on statements like this is where you say, "Risky behavior...are encouraged as ways to prove maturity and masculinity."  I wasn't encouraged to do anything of the sort when I was growing up.  That doesn't mean I didn't do them, or still do them, but I hardly try to pass any risky behavior off as an attempt to prove masculinity or maturity.

I did my fair share of stupid things, and I paid for them, in one way or another.  That, to me, is part of growing up.

And, for what it's worth, I could care less what a famous athlete does off the court (or out of the pool), as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else or steer kids to a dangerous path.  When I read about Phelps toking it up, I thought, "What an idiot," not, "what a tortured soul."
Don't think twice, it's alright.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2009, 02:02:51 pm »
You must be right on the "not that it could happen any longer", because if I saw someone taking a belt or strap to their child in public, I would be intervening, forcefully.

Then you'd be getting a serious ass-whipping from many people I know.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2009, 02:06:45 pm »
Then you'd be getting a serious ass-whipping from many people I know.

Possibly.  But at least they'd be hitting someone who was hitting back.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Taras Bulba

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3988
    • View Profile
    • Wing Attack Plan R
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2009, 02:22:15 pm »
You must be right on the "not that it could happen any longer", because if I saw someone taking a belt or strap to their child in public, I would be intervening, forcefully.

Was a common sight in any grocery store during my youth long ago.  People, including other kids, thought nothing of it and figured the little shit deserved it.
Purity of Essence

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2009, 02:30:24 pm »
Possibly.  But at least they'd be hitting someone who was hitting back.

you would go to jail.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #92 on: February 03, 2009, 02:33:09 pm »
Was a common sight in any grocery store during my youth long ago.  People, including other kids, thought nothing of it and figured the little shit deserved it.

"Daddy's going to kill Ralphie!"
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

Ebby Calvin

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3595
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #93 on: February 03, 2009, 02:38:24 pm »
you would go to jail.

Phelps might, too.
Link
Don't think twice, it's alright.

JackAstro

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3824
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #94 on: February 03, 2009, 02:38:43 pm »
This is a weird discussion. I find that I don't give a shit that Michael Phelps smokes weed, but I would be pretty put off by a picture of him hitting a kid with a belt. I'm not sure how those things got related, but here we are.
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
Say hi on the Twitter

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #95 on: February 03, 2009, 03:13:58 pm »
you would go to jail.

I'm not saying it would be a rational decision.  I think that reasonable people could disagree as to whether it would be a proper decision.  I'm just sayin', knowing myself - it would happen.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2009, 03:27:54 pm »
Possibly.  But at least they'd be hitting someone who was hitting back.


Well with the people I'm thinking of, you woudn't be doing much hitting back.  You'd be lying unconscious with a broken jaw on your way to jail.  Not sure if that would make you feel better about yourself or not.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2009, 03:33:45 pm »

Well with the people I'm thinking of, you woudn't be doing much hitting back.  You'd be lying unconscious with a broken jaw on your way to jail.  Not sure if that would make you feel better about yourself or not.

I think you'd have to classify that as a moral victory at best.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2009, 03:50:00 pm »
This is a weird discussion. I find that I don't give a shit that Michael Phelps smokes weed, but I would be pretty put off by a picture of him hitting a kid with a belt. I'm not sure how those things got related, but here we are.

And that kid would have to be a boy, to bring in the bizarre gender-norms angle the conversation followed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:52:33 pm by Bench »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2009, 03:52:13 pm »
Phelps might, too.
Link

At first, I figured it must be an election year, but then I clicked on your link and read this about the sheriff:

"The Richland County sheriff has long sought to fight drug crimes. He rose from patrol officer to captain of the narcotics division in the early 1990s, after the television series Miami Vice made its splash.

Lott played the part well. He wore stylish suits and had long hair then. He drove a Porsche seized from a drug dealer and even worked undercover with federal agents in Florida."

I wonder whether he was beaten as a child?

"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2009, 04:11:26 pm »
I've known a couple young people who had their lives negatively changed by pot.  It wasn't the effects of the drug so much as the effect of getting caught violating the law. I think as a society we should find better ways of treating users than making them criminals and perpetuating an underworld black-market distribution system, that is growing in size, sophistication, political influence, and violence. Does anyone think these drug cartels want to see drugs decriminalized? The fuck, they love the fact that it's illegal. It's their business. And if you are for users being criminalized, than indirectly you support the existence drug cartels.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2009, 04:17:58 pm »
I'm not saying it would be a rational decision.  I think that reasonable people could disagree as to whether it would be a proper decision.  I'm just sayin', knowing myself - it would happen.


The Swinging AccountantÂź

BTW, what the hell are you doing screwing around on an internet message board this time of year?

jonbloozy

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1077
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2009, 04:18:44 pm »
I've known a couple young people who had their lives negatively changed by pot.  It wasn't the effects of the drug so much as the effect of getting caught violating the law. I think as a society we should find better ways of treating users than making them criminals and perpetuating an underworld black-market distribution system, that is growing in size, sophistication, political influence, and violence. Does anyone think these drug cartels want to see drugs decriminalized? The fuck, they love the fact that it's illegal. It's their business. And if you are for users being criminalized, than indirectly you support the existence drug cartels.

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but Texas' pot laws are a lot stricter than in California.  One of my good friends got caught with a small amount of ganja (a ticket in CA).  Couple days later, the cop showed up at his house and tore up the ticket.  Said it wasn't worth going to court for.  
I say smorgasbord!

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2009, 04:21:15 pm »
BTW, what the hell are you doing screwing around on an internet message board this time of year?

The shit hasn't started hitting the fan yet.

Besides, this is may method of staying sane.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #104 on: February 03, 2009, 04:23:52 pm »
I've known a couple young people who had their lives negatively changed by pot.  It wasn't the effects of the drug so much as the effect of getting caught violating the law. I think as a society we should find better ways of treating users than making them criminals and perpetuating an underworld black-market distribution system, that is growing in size, sophistication, political influence, and violence. Does anyone think these drug cartels want to see drugs decriminalized? The fuck, they love the fact that it's illegal. It's their business. And if you are for users being criminalized, than indirectly you support the existence drug cartels.

Agreed. The only people I know whose lives have been screwed up by pot got screwed up by the government, and not the plant.  Whereas I know plenty of people who have screwed up their lives with alcohol without any government involvement.


"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #105 on: February 03, 2009, 04:32:50 pm »
I know people who have pretty much smoked themselves retarded - I don't think it's fair to say that you can't get in trouble with marijuana alone (but it's not more likely than alcohol, in my experience).
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #106 on: February 03, 2009, 05:47:15 pm »
I know people who have pretty much smoked themselves retarded...

Cheech and Chong?
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #107 on: February 03, 2009, 05:54:46 pm »
This takes me completely by surprise.  Do you have a child?  If so, are you OK with this "rite of passage"?  I would have gotten my ass kicked if my dad had ever caught me with or heard of me smoking pot...and I will kick my son's ass as well under the same circumstances.  I do not know of anyone who accepts an illegal drug of any kind as a rite of passage.  Guess out here in the sticks folks are not as sophisticated...but I will never condone something that could land my child in jail.

I agree wholehearedly with this, and this comes from one who was hopelessly addicted to that drug for a very long time. Its use is pernicious, and it should remain illegal. It took me four rehabs to beat that thing (and a few other equally pernicious prescription drugs). It is not okay to break the law.

Phelps obviously needs some substance abuse help. However, we are all responsible for our choices, and if he loses endorsements, oh well, it is the price of playing a very costly game.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #108 on: February 03, 2009, 05:57:17 pm »
Besides, this is may method of staying sane.


If THIS is the place you come to find sanity in your life, your life is fucked up.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #109 on: February 03, 2009, 06:14:11 pm »
I agree wholehearedly with this, and this comes from one who was hopelessly addicted to that drug for a very long time. Its use is pernicious, and it should remain illegal. It took me four rehabs to beat that thing (and a few other equally pernicious prescription drugs). It is not okay to break the law.

Phelps obviously needs some substance abuse help. However, we are all responsible for our choices, and if he loses endorsements, oh well, it is the price of playing a very costly game.

Do you think alcohol should be illegal?
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #110 on: February 03, 2009, 07:24:54 pm »
I agree wholehearedly with this, and this comes from one who was hopelessly addicted to that drug for a very long time. Its use is pernicious, and it should remain illegal. It took me four rehabs to beat that thing (and a few other equally pernicious prescription drugs). It is not okay to break the law.

So according to your logic you should be have been charged with at least four counts. It's the law, man. Or are you saying the only reason you did it was because you didn't know it was illegal, or that it was okay because of your addictive disease, which has been revisited multiple times with multiple other substances? Anyway, even though you seem to think Willie Nelson belongs in jail, I'm glad your at a better place in your life now and I wish you well.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2009, 07:29:07 pm »
So according to your logic you should be have been charged with at least four counts. It's the law, man. Or are you saying the only reason you did it was because you didn't know it was illegal, or that it was okay because of your addictive disease, which has been revisited multiple times with multiple other substances? Anyway, even though you seem to think Willie Nelson belongs in jail, I'm glad your at a better place in your life now and I wish you well.

I estimate that I drove impaired at least 2000 times. However, I was never charged. Should I have been? Certainly. I was a public hazard. My disease didn't make it okay for me to do what I did, and it took jail time for me to finally admit that I couldn't stop on my own. I don't believe that Willie Nelson belongs in jail.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2009, 07:30:55 pm »
I estimate that I drove impaired at least 2000 times. However, I was never charged. Should I have been? Certainly. I was a public hazard. My disease didn't make it okay for me to do what I did, and it took jail time for me to finally admit that I couldn't stop on my own. I don't believe that Willie Nelson belongs in jail.

 Do you think drug cartels are better at distribution and administration of a diseased addict's addiction, than say a doctors office, a hospital, or a clinic?
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2009, 07:36:12 pm »
Do you think alcohol should be illegal?

No I don't. Alcohol was illegal at one time, but the public voted to legalize it again via constitutional amendment. Vox populi may not be the brightest way to go, but it is the best way I know. If the public voted to decriminalize marijuana, then it would be legal, and I'd be okay with that. With that said, though, many people underestimate and minimize the damage done by marijuana by comparing it to other drugs, including alcohol. That's sad and unfortunate. I was mesmerized by this argument for over 30 years of heavy usage, that, and the "God made marijuana, so it's natural" bromide. It is an addictive substance. I proved to myself that I couldn't control its use, or that of alcohol. So that is why I now abstain from all such substances. I can't handle them.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2009, 07:41:17 pm »
Do you think drug cartels are better at distribution and administration of a diseased addict's addiction, than say a doctors office, a hospital, or a clinic?

Given my personal preference, I'd easily opt for doctors and control over the drug cartels. However, I was just as addicted to Xanax, which is a controlled prescription medication that I hoodwinked a doctor into prescribing for me. The bottom line: Mr. Happy was a liar to the doctor who first prescribed it for me. Then I took over and hit the internet pharmacies and overseas pharmacies for it. Those are just as dangerous as the drug cartels, because you didn't need a prescription--I was a VIP customer because of the amounts that I was buying at a time. Xanax caused me to forget large portions of time. It is very powerful, even taken as prescribed (which I never did).
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

UpTooLate

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1089
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2009, 10:51:31 pm »
Then I took over and hit the internet pharmacies and overseas pharmacies for it.

I can't see how this would be a good idea or any form of good outcome. 

Quote
I was a VIP customer because of the amounts that I was buying at a time.

Just a shot in the dark here, but I'm guessing that they told all their customers that they were VIP's. 
"Go with Christ" - Eric "The Dawg" Cartman

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2009, 11:26:06 pm »
I agree wholehearedly with this, and this comes from one who was hopelessly addicted to that drug for a very long time. Its use is pernicious, and it should remain illegal. It took me four rehabs to beat that thing (and a few other equally pernicious prescription drugs). It is not okay to break the law.

Phelps obviously needs some substance abuse help. However, we are all responsible for our choices, and if he loses endorsements, oh well, it is the price of playing a very costly game.

No I don't. Alcohol was illegal at one time, but the public voted to legalize it again via constitutional amendment. Vox populi may not be the brightest way to go, but it is the best way I know. If the public voted to decriminalize marijuana, then it would be legal, and I'd be okay with that. With that said, though, many people underestimate and minimize the damage done by marijuana by comparing it to other drugs, including alcohol. That's sad and unfortunate. I was mesmerized by this argument for over 30 years of heavy usage, that, and the "God made marijuana, so it's natural" bromide. It is an addictive substance. I proved to myself that I couldn't control its use, or that of alcohol. So that is why I now abstain from all such substances. I can't handle them.

I am a little confused by the logical swings in the above quoted posts, but no matter.

Marijuana use is a negative, but it is not even in the same league as alcohol abuse, on any level (except legal.)  It would be misleading to equate the two.  People focus on the relatively rare casualties, but in my experience even worse are those who made it through and are still functioning, but at a much lower capacity than their original potential.  Their involvement with weed and the whole sort of stoner lifestyle surrounding its use at a tender age altered their trajectory, and in the end they wasted their promise.  I knows guys who are roofers now, for example. . . and I have nothing against roofers at all, but in high school these guys had it all, the brains, the discpline, etc.  They could have been anything, a doctor, a scientist, whatever.  I played with a guy, a great RH pitcher, who threw 90+ with control and was drafted by the Dickities after we graduated. But he was a big-time stoner, and within three years, he was out of baseball.  He is a laborer, last time I saw him.  Now that, to me, is a real tragedy.  The terminally self-destructive don't interest me, or elicit anything more than generic sympathy; on the other hand, the weed-addled underachievers are the best advertisement I know of against advocating the easy and/or regular use of marijuana.

It is not apparent to me that Michael Phelps needs drug abuse treatment.  He may, he may not.  I don't know him well enough to say.  I do know recovering alcoholics/addicts think they know what is good for everyone else, and tend to project their own shortcomings on others.

Alcoholics are also known to play up their cross-addictions to prescription drugs and the like, and soft-peddle the alcoholism.  I suppose a prescription drug addiction is an easier failing to cop to.  On the other hand, there is still considerable social shame involved in not being able to hold one's liquor.  It just sounds better to say one is a prescription drug addict, it's almost respectable.  A lot better than being a hopeless drunk.  Just another way of dodging the full truth.

Regardless, like Sphinx, I wish you well in your recovery.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2009, 03:05:10 am »
Strosrays:

Logic often has little to do with positions on issues. I was simply providing an explanation for why I think that marijuana and alcohol are treated differently by the law. Unlike alcohol, the public has never had the chance to vote on the legalization of marijuana. I personally wouldn't vote for it, but I'd probably vote against alcohol being legal today too. I've just seen too much wreckage that both create in the rooms of AA and NA as well as in the rehab facilities that I was in.

As for Michael Phelps, he's had a DUI in the past as well, so this wasn't his first brush with substance abuse. I was simply saying that I feared that he might need some help. He may not. He may have been simply caught up in the moment of his unbelievable good fortune. I wish him all the best, and I hope that his sponsors stick with him. It appears that most are. I'm not aware that any have deserted him yet.

It was a hard road back, and my addiction cost me a lot. However, I've come through it a hopefully better, more empathetic person.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2009, 06:55:45 am »
People focus on the relatively rare casualties, but in my experience even worse are those who made it through and are still functioning, but at a much lower capacity than their original potential.  Their involvement with weed and the whole sort of stoner lifestyle surrounding its use at a tender age altered their trajectory, and in the end they wasted their promise.  I knows guys who are roofers now, for example. . . and I have nothing against roofers at all, but in high school these guys had it all, the brains, the discpline, etc.  They could have been anything, a doctor, a scientist, whatever.  I played with a guy, a great RH pitcher, who threw 90+ with control and was drafted by the Dickities after we graduated. But he was a big-time stoner, and within three years, he was out of baseball.  He is a laborer, last time I saw him.  Now that, to me, is a real tragedy.  The terminally self-destructive don't interest me, or elicit anything more than generic sympathy; on the other hand, the weed-addled underachievers are the best advertisement I know of against advocating the easy and/or regular use of marijuana.

I totally agree to a point but was it the pot that turned them in to apathetic underachievers, or was it just a factor, a crutch? I think life is too complex to say that they simply smoked too much pot. I knew a guy who was cruising through MBA grad school at Wharton when he got the news the love of his life was getting married to someone else. It broke his heart, he was never the same, he lost it, left school, became a recluse for a few years. He's working at Home Depot, nothing wrong with that, he's a department manager, but he could have gone farther with an MBA from Penn.  He never smoked or drank. At some point he was prescribed prozac, but that was later on. Sometimes it could be an undiagnosed  bi-polar or other mental issue that wrecks the havoc. Certainly there others you knew with an "involvement with weed and the whole sort of stoner lifestyle surrounding its use at a tender age" who at some point matured and rejected that lifestyle. If it were regulated by the government instead of rebuked, there should and would be age restrictions as there are with booze and tobacco. Underage kids should not be allowed to smoke marijuana.

Quote
According to the author Chris Conrad:

President George Washington made specific written references to Indian hemp, or cannabis indica, and hoped to "have disseminated the seed to others."   His August 7, 1765 diary entry, "began to separate the male from the female (hemp) plants," describes a harvesting technique favored to enhance the potency of smoking cannabis, among other reasons.  Hemp farmer Thomas Jefferson and paper maker Ben Franklin were ambassadors to France during the initial surge of the hashish vogue. Their celebrity status and progressive revolutionary image afforded them ample opportunities to try new experiences. Jefferson smuggled Chinese hemp seeds to America and is credited with the phrase in the Declaration of Independence, "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Did the Founding Fathers of the United States of America smoke cannabis? Some researchers think so. Dr. Burke, president of the American Historical Reference Society and a consultant for the Smithsonian Institute, counted seven early presidents as cannabis smokers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor and Franklin Pierce. 41 "Early letters from our founding fathers refer to the pleasures of hemp smoking," said Burke. Pierce, Taylor and Jackson, all military men, smoked it with their troops. Cannabis was twice as popular among American soldiers in the Mexican War as in Vietnam: Pierce wrote to his family that it was "about the only good thing" about that war. "

Add Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Barrack Obama; Not you typical underachievers.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Outlawscotty

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2009, 06:56:07 am »
So punish everyone for the foolish acts of a few huh?  Responsibility and consequence are huge words to this conversation and their definitions should be keyed into the hoods of the cars of our youths' minds as a reminder.  As far as punishment goes, being doled out by your parents in any legal manner, and this includes spanking, is ten times better than anything to do with the law.  The good old days of 'our' youth are gone, and 'our youts' will be punished by their 'criminal' record for a good portion of their lives.  So, in my view, you do what it takes to get your point across your way, before you have no say, or money left to help.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2009, 07:02:49 am »
FWIW, one of the smartest people I know personally, and my best friend, is a marijuana user.  He's also an unabashed smoker and heavy drinker.  He and I plus another mate of ours (also a smoker) went to Jamaica last summer as our mate is from there and was going to see his folks.  We just went along for the ride.  The point of this comment is to say this: sitting in a bar on the beach in Negril, with all of us drinking Red Stripe, one of us smoking a cigarette and one of us smoking a joint, was very enjoyable and sociable and casual.

As with anything else, it's all about moderation.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 07:25:01 am by Limey »
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2009, 07:56:45 am »


As with anything else, it's all about moderation.

As an addict, my problem was that I couldn't moderate shit. Still have trouble doing that more than three years into recovery. I envy those who can do so. I tried. Hell, you folks endured some of my lunacy from the time I got here back in the mid 90's until December 5, 2005, when I finally stopped. I'm still looney sometimes.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2009, 09:04:58 am »
As an addict, my problem was that I couldn't moderate shit.

As a non-addict, your inability to control yourself is not my problem.  And I'm not trying to be a dick about that, my point is that banning alcohol or marijuana because some people cannot handle it is not a good reason.  Not that I'm condoning marijuana usage or even alcohol usage.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2009, 09:12:05 am »
Logic often has little to do with positions on issues. I was simply providing an explanation for why I think that marijuana and alcohol are treated differently by the law. Unlike alcohol, the public has never had the chance to vote on the legalization of marijuana.

Marijuana hasn't always been illegal you know.  Marijuana was criminalized mainly due to racist politics of the 1920's rather than actual physical harm it caused.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2009, 09:15:13 am »
As a non-addict, your inability to control yourself is not my problem.  And I'm not trying to be a dick about that, my point is that banning alcohol or marijuana because some people cannot handle it is not a good reason.  Not that I'm condoning marijuana usage or even alcohol usage.

I believe that 50% of the drivers out there shouldn't be on the road when sober/straight!  But I would hate it if their inability to pay attention/keep up/get off the fucking phone/use their turn signal/be in the lane they need would impinge upon my privilege to drive.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2009, 09:17:58 am »
As a non-addict, your inability to control yourself is not my problem.  And I'm not trying to be a dick about that, my point is that banning alcohol or marijuana because some people cannot handle it is not a good reason.  Not that I'm condoning marijuana usage or even alcohol usage.

No offense taken. I wasn't calling for the ban of either substance. If they gave me a vote, I'd vote against both. But I'm just one soul.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #126 on: February 04, 2009, 09:18:04 am »
Marijuana hasn't always been illegal you know.  Marijuana was criminalized mainly due to racist politics of the 1920's rather than actual physical harm it caused.

Massachussets just voted to decriminalize possession of less than an ounce.  Now, all possession of that amount gets you is a $100 civil fine (plus, of course, confiscation). 

"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #127 on: February 04, 2009, 09:19:13 am »
Marijuana hasn't always been illegal you know.  Marijuana was criminalized mainly due to racist politics of the 1920's rather than actual physical harm it caused.

Still, if you've got money or a decent health plan, you can still get hold of some good shit that'll fuck you up, but that turns the wheels of the medical and pharmaceutical industries so it's ok.  Well, it's ok as long as you're not Heath Ledger or Anna Nicole Smith or Elvis.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #128 on: February 04, 2009, 09:21:03 am »
I believe that 50% of the drivers out there shouldn't be on the road when sober/straight!  But I would hate it if their inability to pay attention/keep up/get off the fucking phone/use their turn signal/be in the lane they need would impinge upon my privilege to drive.


To quote our illustrious former president, I feel your pain. There are all sorts of distractions in today's vehicle, from farding to fiddling with the radio/CD-DVD player or GPS.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #129 on: February 04, 2009, 09:23:03 am »
Marijuana hasn't always been illegal you know.  Marijuana was criminalized mainly due to racist politics of the 1920's rather than actual physical harm it caused.

There are all sorts of theories as to why marijuana was banned, which also includes some type of black helicopter conspiracy with the breweries and liquor distilleries.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #130 on: February 04, 2009, 09:24:00 am »
No offense taken. I wasn't calling for the ban of either substance. If they gave me a vote, I'd vote against both. But I'm just one soul.


I think banning substance usage is a slippery slope, and I have mixed feelings.  On one hand, I'm glad that your average joe out there is not drunk or stoned at any given moment he's driving his car, operating a forklift, flying my plane, removing my spleen, or counting my change at WalMart.  There should be both deterrent and punishment for those who violate the rights of others because they can't control themselves.  On the other hand, I'm getting more of a libertarian bent as I get older, and I don't want the government telling me what I cannot do in the privacy of my own home in ways that affect no one but myself.  I'd hate to think of passing laws that say I can't come home after a long day and have a glass of scotch and hand-rolled cigar.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #131 on: February 04, 2009, 09:25:12 am »
To quote our illustrious former president, I feel your pain. There are all sorts of distractions in today's vehicle, from farding to fiddling with the radio/CD-DVD player or GPS.


OK, I gotsta know...is this a typo, or is there yet another new word out there of which I'm unaware?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #132 on: February 04, 2009, 09:25:15 am »
To quote our illustrious former president, I feel your pain. There are all sorts of distractions in today's vehicle, from farding to fiddling with the radio/CD-DVD player or GPS.

Not to hijack this thread, but I learned to drive in a country where it is illegal to take your hands off the wheel for anything unless it has to do with the safe driving of the vehicle (changing gear, applying the handbrake etc.).  Thus, back in those days prior to steering wheel controls, even changing the radio was against the law.  Never saw a car with a cup holder until I came to the States.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Ebby Calvin

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3595
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #133 on: February 04, 2009, 09:27:35 am »
Never saw a car with a cup holder until I came to the States.

Then where'd you put your beer?
Don't think twice, it's alright.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #134 on: February 04, 2009, 09:28:52 am »
Still, if you've got money or a decent health plan, you can still get hold of some good shit that'll fuck you up, but that turns the wheels of the medical and pharmaceutical industries so it's ok.  Well, it's ok as long as you're not Heath Ledger or Anna Nicole Smith or Elvis.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the USSC has ruled numerous times that neither they nor Congress should be in the business of practicing medicine.  There are rules and regulations, but the general feeling among the courts is that doctors should be allowed to practice medicine how they see fit, and if that involves the prescription of certain drugs to treat legitimate medical maladies, then so be it.  Not that there aren't abuses, but in general, the courts give a wide berth to physicians, wider than they give Joe Sixpack or Sally Housecoat.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2009, 09:36:12 am »

I think banning substance usage is a slippery slope, and I have mixed feelings.  On one hand, I'm glad that your average joe out there is not drunk or stoned at any given moment he's driving his car, operating a forklift, flying my plane, removing my spleen, or counting my change at WalMart.  There should be both deterrent and punishment for those who violate the rights of others because they can't control themselves.  On the other hand, I'm getting more of a libertarian bent as I get older, and I don't want the government telling me what I cannot do in the privacy of my own home in ways that affect no one but myself.  I'd hate to think of passing laws that say I can't come home after a long day and have a glass of scotch and hand-rolled cigar.

It's all about where you choose to legislate.  You can ban a substance (and see how far that gets you), or you can decriminalise it and regulate around it.  By this I mean regulate who, where and when can purchase it, make it illegal to drive whilst imbibing it, or whilst impaired by it.  Further, most workplaces regulate behaviour, and will ban it and its related shenanigans.  Thus there are legal and social controls in place to ensure that the majority of people who can moderate their enjoyment of it can do so legally and without impinging on other people's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

By the way, I'm talking about beer in the above paragraph.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2009, 09:40:02 am »
Marijuana was criminalized mainly due to racist politics of the 1920's rather than actual physical harm it caused.

See also: Federal sentencing guidelines for cocaine vs. crack.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2009, 09:40:26 am »
Well, if I'm not mistaken, the USSC has ruled numerous times that neither they nor Congress should be in the business of practicing medicine.  There are rules and regulations, but the general feeling among the courts is that doctors should be allowed to practice medicine how they see fit, and if that involves the prescription of certain drugs to treat legitimate medical maladies, then so be it.  Not that there aren't abuses, but in general, the courts give a wide berth to physicians, wider than they give Joe Sixpack or Sally Housecoat.

I agree.  Yet most doctors are not allowed to prescribe marijuana to those whom much of the medical industry claims will benefit from it.

Also, re: Joe Sixpack, a little while ago Bill Maher was interviewing a gay blogger about CA's Prop 8.  He asked him for his thoughts on what this means to the average gay guy on the street.  "Let's call him Joe Fudgepack," he said with a mischievous twinkle in his eye.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2009, 09:41:58 am »

OK, I gotsta know...is this a typo, or is there yet another new word out there of which I'm unaware?

The application of makeup is referred to as farding.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2009, 09:46:24 am »
I'm willing to bet Visa and/or McDonald's disagrees

Hmm, looks like Visa stands by their man.


Outlawscotty

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2009, 09:50:01 am »
The application of makeup is referred to as farding.

I really thought this might be a Fredian gaseous expulsion.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #141 on: February 04, 2009, 09:53:02 am »
pitchers and catchers in Florida yet?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #142 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:26 am »
Bradley's not. 
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:45 am »
Bradley's not. 

But you know he'd be in on any such philosophical debate.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2009, 09:55:54 am »
I agree.  Yet most doctors are not allowed to prescribe marijuana to those whom much of the medical industry claims will benefit from it.

I was referring to abuses of current prescription drugs, but yeah, there is a disconnect on what physicians and what Congress considers "legitimate medical benefits".  In general, Congress bans things that they consider to be of no medicinal benefit.  Many in the medical community have argued for years that marijuana has legitimate medical benefit, and given its depression of the central nervous system, similar to other narcotics such as morphine, I would think there would be.  However, due to the the social stigma of marijuana and its prevalence as a recreational drug, Congress has been reluctant to accept the benefit.

The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2009, 09:56:25 am »
The application of makeup is referred to as farding.

I learn something new every day.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2009, 09:56:49 am »
I think you meant to say "due to the fear of appearing soft on crime, Congress has been reluctant..."
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #147 on: February 04, 2009, 09:58:07 am »
I think you meant to say "due to the fear of appearing soft on crime, Congress has been reluctant..."

"Social stigma" = "fear of being soft on crime".  Euphemistically.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #148 on: February 04, 2009, 09:59:19 am »
Then where'd you put your beer?

Between his legs. You know they like warm beer.

I do know recovering alcoholics/addicts think they know what is good for everyone else, and tend to project their own shortcomings on others.

I have to say that I have several very close friends in various recovery programs and I have categorically not found this to be the case with them. Quite the opposite, really. I'm not arguing your experience, just providing additional input.

And Paul, I don't mean to pile on, but I really, really do not understand the urge by so many people to legislate the prohibition of behaviors that they personally do not like. I was always under the impression that US Americans are free to do more or less whatever they want unless there is some sort of urgent social imperative to restrict or prohibit a certain freedom. There is obviously an urgent social imperative to prohibit my freedom to break into your house and steal your shit. Or the freedom someone may feel to drink a 12-pack and go tool around town.

But I find very puzzling your enthusiasm to prohibit legally certain things to others simply because you personally have a difficult relationship with them.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2009, 10:07:28 am »
Between his legs. You know they like warm beer.

I have to say that I have several very close friends in various recovery programs and I have categorically not found this to be the case with them. Quite the opposite, really. I'm not arguing your experience, just providing additional input.

And Paul, I don't mean to pile on, but I really, really do not understand the urge by so many people to legislate the prohibition of behaviors that they personally do not like. I was always under the impression that US Americans are free to do more or less whatever they want unless there is some sort of urgent social imperative to restrict or prohibit a certain freedom. There is obviously an urgent social imperative to prohibit my freedom to break into your house and steal your shit. Or the freedom someone may feel to drink a 12-pack and go tool around town.

But I find very puzzling your enthusiasm to prohibit legally certain things to others simply because you personally have a difficult relationship with them.

I am not enthusiastically endorsing the abolition of either substance, one of which happens to be presently illegal already anyway. I'm not encouraging any sort of prohibition of alcohol. I was simply providing my own experience as a barometer to what I'd do if I got a vote (I feel the same way about gambling). I don't have such a vote, and I'm not actively looking for one either. I used to really enjoy alcohol. I see no reason why people can't drink if they want to do so. It is legal. However, I do favor strict enforcement of DUI laws because that is endangering behavior. I'm just lucky that I never killed anyone or even myself in driving while impaired.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2009, 10:24:19 am »
It's all about where you choose to legislate.  You can ban a substance (and see how far that gets you), or you can decriminalise it and regulate around it.  By this I mean regulate who, where and when can purchase it, make it illegal to drive whilst imbibing it, or whilst impaired by it.  Further, most workplaces regulate behaviour, and will ban it and its related shenanigans.  Thus there are legal and social controls in place to ensure that the majority of people who can moderate their enjoyment of it can do so legally and without impinging on other people's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

By the way, I'm talking about beer in the above paragraph.

A perfect example of this, as far as I am concerned, is smoking.

I smoked for 25 years.  If smoking had been made illegal, I would probably have quit, eventually.  But if smoking was made illegal, it would not only cost a lot of tax revenue, but of course then you'd have to spend all this extra money chasing down smokers like me and prosecuting us and throwing us in the penitentary and then incurring the costs associated with keeping us there.  But of course, smoking has not been made illegal.  It has been regulated up the yin-yang, and taxed all to hell, but you can still legally do it.  I quit anyway; partly for health reasons, but mostly because it had become a pain in the ass to maintain the habit, and expensive, too.  Social and economic pressure can be more effective in changing behavior than punitive threats.

One positive if marijuana were legalized - once the spectre of indulging in criminal activity is removed, maybe people will begin to look at some of the empirical evidence about its effects on a user's health.  Like the fact marijuana smoke is even more harmful to the body than cigarette smoke; the smoke from a typical blunt contains four times the tar a cigarette does, and many of the same toxins.  Regular use supresses the immune system, including killing T-cells.  And there are suggestions that regular use will cause problems with mental health.  It is a stoner's in-joke, but in fact there is evidence that even short term use affects memory.  There is also evidence that marijuana use triggers pre-existing but dormant mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bi-polar psychosis.

If nothing else, marijuana is a serious health hazard.

   

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2009, 10:42:50 am »
A perfect example of this, as far as I am concerned, is smoking.

I smoked for 25 years.  If smoking had been made illegal, I would probably have quit, eventually.  But if smoking was made illegal, it would not only cost a lot of tax revenue, but of course then you'd have to spend all this extra money chasing down smokers like me and prosecuting us and throwing us in the penitentary and then incurring the costs associated with keeping us there.  But of course, smoking has not been made illegal.  It has been regulated up the yin-yang, and taxed all to hell, but you can still legally do it.  I quit anyway; partly for health reasons, but mostly because it had become a pain in the ass to maintain the habit, and expensive, too.  Social and economic pressure can be more effective in changing behavior than punitive threats.

One positive if marijuana were legalized - once the spectre of indulging in criminal activity is removed, maybe people will begin to look at some of the empirical evidence about its effects on a user's health.  Like the fact marijuana smoke is even more harmful to the body than cigarette smoke; the smoke from a typical blunt contains four times the tar a cigarette does, and many of the same toxins.  Regular use supresses the immune system, including killing T-cells.  And there are suggestions that regular use will cause problems with mental health.  It is a stoner's in-joke, but in fact there is evidence that even short term use affects memory.  There is also evidence that marijuana use triggers pre-existing but dormant mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bi-polar psychosis.

If nothing else, marijuana is a serious health hazard.   

As is smoking and alcohol and trans fat and hunting with Dick Cheney (which, ironically, also involves at least two and maybe three of the others).  It all comes down to where we draw the line between liberty and protecting those who cannot/will not protect themselves.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2009, 11:06:30 am »
I have to say that I have several very close friends in various recovery programs and I have categorically not found this to be the case with them. Quite the opposite, really. I'm not arguing your experience, just providing additional input.

Well, you are lucky, then.

Actually, it was wrong for me to paint all alcoholics with one broad brush.  I think some of what I was talking about has to do with how long one was an abuser before entering rehab, and how far into recovery one is at the time.

Most of the recovering alcoholics I've met so far (my wife and I volunteer in a parish outreach program) were long-term abusers; many were what you call your high-functioning drunks for many years before they crashed and burned and ended up in rehab.  They spent years deflecting away attention to and accusations of their addiction by claiming it was others who had a problem.  I have one guy now, a once successful professional, who came home from work late and loaded almost every night for 25 years, but had his wife and kids convinced they were dysfunctional, not him.  He had them in a couseling program, while he went on his merry way.  This is not uncommon, from what I've seen.

The more time I spend around drunks, I think I am more compassionate about it now than I was when I started.  A lot of these people have messed up pretty good lives, and have lost a lot becuase of their alcoholism.  And, of course, there is tremendous ancillary damage done to their families and those around them.  At the same time, I've grown weary and way less tolerant of listening to their bullshit, that's for sure.  One of the professional counselors told me he has to constantly deflect fantasy and self-delusion and keep whacking the alcoholic patient over the head with the naked truth, especially early on.  If everything goes right, they eventually get it.

As is smoking and alcohol and trans fat and hunting with Dick Cheney (which, ironically, also involves at least two and maybe three of the others).  It all comes down to where we draw the line between liberty and protecting those who cannot/will not protect themselves.

True.  Though with regard to protecting one's right to do what they want if whatever they are doing only effects themselves, there is this old argument:  If what they are doing harmful to their health and they are covered by health insurance, is that going to affect me, too?  Will my premiums be higher than they would be otherwise?  Where does one draw the line between my right to not have to pay to cover someone else's bad habits, and their right to indulge in those bad habits?  Or vice versa, for that matter?

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #153 on: February 04, 2009, 11:33:24 am »
True.  Though with regard to protecting one's right to do what they want if whatever they are doing only effects themselves, there is this old argument:  If what they are doing harmful to their health and they are covered by health insurance, is that going to affect me, too?  Will my premiums be higher than they would be otherwise?  Where does one draw the line between my right to not have to pay to cover someone else's bad habits, and their right to indulge in those bad habits?  Or vice versa, for that matter?

Actually, this is more of an argument if the health insurance in question is provided by the State, through taxes instead of premiums, and not a private company.  But it is a valid point and it is why many people find full-blown libertarians a little scary.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #154 on: February 04, 2009, 11:39:23 am »
Actually, this is more of an argument if the health insurance in question is provided by the State, through taxes instead of premiums, and not a private company.  But it is a valid point and it is why many people find full-blown libertarians a little scary.

It also leads to a ridiculously slippery slope - maybe we should have mandatory nationwide excercise programs....
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Col. Sphinx Drummond

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16760
  • art is a bulwark against the irrationality of man
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #155 on: February 04, 2009, 11:43:31 am »
We can encourage people to eat better, then the government can bail out the fast food industry when their profits go to hell.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
And if there's a message I guess this is it
Truth isn't easy, the easy part's shit

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #156 on: February 04, 2009, 11:46:26 am »
It also leads to a ridiculously slippery slope - maybe we should have mandatory nationwide excercise programs....

And breeding programs.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2009, 02:32:23 pm »
We can encourage people to eat better, then the government can bail out the fast food industry when their profits go to hell.

My employer is already doing this.  And my wife, the former insurance consultant, informed me that this is something the insurance companies are doing to collect information about individuals to start assessing more individualized premiums based on respective health risk.  That's gonna suck for those living an unhealthy life-style but will reward those who take better care of themselves.  In the middle will be those who's health is failing but through no fault or act of their own (born with a health problem/defect etc...). 

So far, the primary way to reward the healthy lifestyles is via rebates for recording exercise activity and maintaining regular bloodwork/cholesterol checks.  We also received a rebate for not smoking but that expired last year.  Now there's a penalty if you smoke. 
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2009, 02:50:44 pm »
So far, the primary way to reward the healthy lifestyles is via rebates for recording exercise activity and maintaining regular bloodwork/cholesterol checks.  We also received a rebate for not smoking but that expired last year.  Now there's a penalty if you smoke. 

And here's my vote for denying/reducing payouts for at-fault drivers in auto accidents in which it can be determined that the at-fault driver was using his damn cell phone at the time of the accident.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2009, 03:22:52 pm »
Why use weed when you can just go to the dentist?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #160 on: February 04, 2009, 04:07:33 pm »
And Paul, I don't mean to pile on, but I really, really do not understand the urge by so many people to legislate the prohibition of behaviors that they personally do not like. I was always under the impression that US Americans are free to do more or less whatever they want unless there is some sort of urgent social imperative to restrict or prohibit a certain freedom. There is obviously an urgent social imperative to prohibit my freedom to break into your house and steal your shit. Or the freedom someone may feel to drink a 12-pack and go tool around town.

So are you advocating repeal of the minimum wage statutes? The Fair Housing Act? Many of the OSHA regulations?

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #161 on: February 04, 2009, 04:13:41 pm »
So are you advocating repeal of the minimum wage statutes? The Fair Housing Act? Many of the OSHA regulations?

Those aren't urgent social imperatives?
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #162 on: February 04, 2009, 04:23:40 pm »
Those aren't urgent social imperatives?

In some cases, perhaps, in other cases not necessarily.

Is it really a social imperative to you which person your neighbor chooses to rent his spare room to? Or how much he and his employee agree an hour's work is worth?

And, in any event, isn't the line rather blurry between "behaviors that they personally do not like" and "some sort of urgent social imperative." In either event, one group of people is deciding whether there is cause to tell another group of people what they can and can't do.

To pretend one is just moralizing while the other is attending to urgent social imperatives is often simply a matter of opinion, isn't it?

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #163 on: February 04, 2009, 04:39:05 pm »
You see that full-blown libertarian?  That full-blown libertarian right there?
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #164 on: February 04, 2009, 04:45:29 pm »
In some cases, perhaps, in other cases not necessarily.

Is it really a social imperative to you which person your neighbor chooses to rent his spare room to? Or how much he and his employee agree an hour's work is worth?

And, in any event, isn't the line rather blurry between "behaviors that they personally do not like" and "some sort of urgent social imperative." In either event, one group of people is deciding whether there is cause to tell another group of people what they can and can't do.

To pretend one is just moralizing while the other is attending to urgent social imperatives is often simply a matter of opinion, isn't it?

Integration was/is a social imperative, yes.  Would it be okay with you not to be able to travel freely around the country because some hotels wouldn't allow people of your color?  It goes far beyond whether or not your neighbor will rent to minorities.

Having a minimum wage is a social imperative as well.  All first world countries have them.  Before the minimum wage, there was widespread exploitation of the working class and heavy tensions between capital and labor.  How quickly we forget.

On the other hand, preventing adults from taking a certain substance because of its euphoric effects does not help society one bit.  In fact it has a very negative effect, because it creates black markets and prevents accurate measuring and labeling of the drugs.  Why are most drugs illegal?  If you actually read the history, you'll find out it was normally due to bureaucrats looking for reasons to expand their authority and justify their ballooning budgets. 
Grab another Coke and let's die

Ebby Calvin

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3595
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2009, 05:07:39 pm »
Why use weed when you can just go to the dentist?

Awesome.  Thanks for that.
Don't think twice, it's alright.

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #166 on: February 04, 2009, 10:49:51 pm »
So are you advocating repeal of the minimum wage statutes? The Fair Housing Act? Many of the OSHA regulations?

You know what? I am indeed an advocate of small government, free markets and free trade. Conversely, how about you? Are you an advocate of personal liberties?
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #167 on: February 04, 2009, 11:06:41 pm »
Integration was/is a social imperative, yes.  Would it be okay with you not to be able to travel freely around the country because some hotels wouldn't allow people of your color?  It goes far beyond whether or not your neighbor will rent to minorities.

Having a minimum wage is a social imperative as well.  All first world countries have them.  Before the minimum wage, there was widespread exploitation of the working class and heavy tensions between capital and labor.  How quickly we forget.

On the other hand, preventing adults from taking a certain substance because of its euphoric effects does not help society one bit.  In fact it has a very negative effect, because it creates black markets and prevents accurate measuring and labeling of the drugs.  Why are most drugs illegal?  If you actually read the history, you'll find out it was normally due to bureaucrats looking for reasons to expand their authority and justify their ballooning budgets. 

Can you establish that the abuses described above exist in every case where state authority is imposed via anti-discrimination laws, labor laws or health and safety laws? Surely there are thousands of situations where they apply but where an urgent social imperative doesn't necessarily exist.

And, as already noted, isn't the line blurry between urgent social imperatives and moral imperatives? Aren't they, in fact, the same thing in many cases? It would be extremely difficult to argue that the momentum behind the labor movements in the early part of the last century and behind the civil rights movement in the middle of the last century were merely a result of urgent social imperatives. People also acted because, in fact in many cases primarily because, they perceived what was going on to be immoral.

I'm not picking an argument with anybody thinking racial discrimination is immoral. The question is whether dressing up someone's moral code as urgent social imperatives isn't just a pretext to legislate people's behavior in some cases while decrying attempts to legislate people's behavior in other cases.

Your statement that "preventing adults from taking a certain substance because of its euphoric effects does not help society one bit" is simply begging the question. You may think that, but there are many people who disagree and think that mitigating the results of substance abuse is an urgent social imperative.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #168 on: February 04, 2009, 11:11:24 pm »
You know what? I am indeed an advocate of small government, free markets and free trade. Conversely, how about you? Are you an advocate of personal liberties?

Absolutely. I disagree entirely that drug use should be criminalized for moral reasons. I may think drug use is stupid and immoral, but if someone wants to fry his brain, that's his business as long as he's left to rot in private and I'm not asked to pick up the tab for treating him or supporting him.

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #169 on: February 05, 2009, 12:23:33 am »
Absolutely. I disagree entirely that drug use should be criminalized for moral reasons. I may think drug use is stupid and immoral, but if someone wants to fry his brain, that's his business as long as he's left to rot in private and I'm not asked to pick up the tab for treating him or supporting him.

Good. What else?
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #170 on: February 05, 2009, 02:13:42 am »

Stop The Presses

In the hierarchy of life forms on this, our earth, the British tabloid journalist lies somewhere between the hagfish and the dung beetle. However, a story Sunday in the News of the World (proprietor: Keith Rupert Murdoch) has made me scratch my chin and wonder whether we are, in fact, being a tad unkind to the dung beetle. . . The paper's great coup was to lay its grubby, Little-England hands on a photograph of Phelps with his mouth pressed firmly into a glass pipe, or "bong." The story's pseudo-declamatory opening line (a tabloid art form, in itself) was: "This is the astonishing picture which could destroy the career of the greatest competitor in Olympic history." Given that Michael Phelps' career would have remained blissfully undestroyed had the paper chosen not to publish the photograph, one has to marvel at the amoral audacity of the News of the World: in purporting to report on the potential harm to Phelps' image and career from his having smoked cannabis, the newspaper was, in fact, perpetrating that very harm.

geezerdonk

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3342
  • a long tradition of existence
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #171 on: February 05, 2009, 08:30:14 am »
E come vivo? Vivo.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #172 on: February 05, 2009, 08:37:25 am »
Stop The Presses

What the hell kind of name is Varadarjan?

Samiiiiir...Naga...Naga....Nagonna work here anymore anyway.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

JaneDoe

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 8603
  • Missing in Action
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #173 on: February 05, 2009, 08:09:23 pm »
"My hammy is a little tight. I wish I was like Ausmus. He's Jewish and isn't allowed to have a pulled hamstring."

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #174 on: February 06, 2009, 11:34:02 am »
Good. What else?

What else you got in mind? Are you looking for a manifesto?

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #175 on: February 06, 2009, 12:06:50 pm »
What else you got in mind? Are you looking for a manifesto?

No, but I'd love a categorical declaration that you are in support of all forms of personal liberties for all US Americans. You've indicated a support for decriminalization of drugs that are currently illegal. Again, that is an encouraging start.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #176 on: February 06, 2009, 01:01:43 pm »
No, but I'd love a categorical declaration that you are in support of all forms of personal liberties for all US Americans.

"Like masturbating in porn theaters?"
 - Paul Reubens
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2009, 02:12:53 pm »
No, but I'd love a categorical declaration that you are in support of all forms of personal liberties for all US Americans. You've indicated a support for decriminalization of drugs that are currently illegal. Again, that is an encouraging start.

To what effect? Am I auditioning for you? Are you going to nominate me for office?

As a general rule, personal liberties are paramount to the interests of the state and of society as a whole and should be unfettered except as necessary to preserve the life, liberty or property of other individuals.

Did you have some preconceived notion that I'd say something else?

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #178 on: February 06, 2009, 02:19:37 pm »
To what effect? Am I auditioning for you? Are you going to nominate me for office?

As a general rule, personal liberties are paramount to the interests of the state and of society as a whole and should be unfettered except as necessary to preserve the life, liberty or property of other individuals.

Did you have some preconceived notion that I'd say something else?


Yeah, he thought you were a Republican.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #179 on: February 06, 2009, 02:28:23 pm »

Yeah, he thought you were a Republican.

I am. But that's not determinative, is it?

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2009, 02:36:31 pm »
I am. But that's not determinative, is it?

Considering the "Republican" position on individual liberties over the last seven years (e.g., they don't exist when we don't want them to), you can appreciate the confusion.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2009, 02:42:23 pm »
I would like it noted for the record that, in this thread and many others currently active on the board, I have been posting nothing but YouTube clips and made-up cricket gibberish.

Thank you.  That is all.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2009, 03:18:39 pm »
Considering the "Republican" position on individual liberties over the last seven years (e.g., they don't exist when we don't want them to), you can appreciate the confusion.

I must've missed the memo on the unified Republican position, since last time I checked, there was a range of opinion in both parties and among independents on a host of issues having to do with individual liberties.

Are individual liberties not implicated by card-check legislation? Gun control? Campaign contribution limits? Weath redistribution? Mandatory Social Security and Medicare contributions? Emissions standards? Lead-content restrictions? Lawsuit abuse?

Individual liberties is more than just having the right to call Osama Bin Laden in Waziristan with the assurance that the government must obtain a warrant to listen in.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2009, 03:23:59 pm »
I must've missed the memo on the unified Republican position, since last time I checked, there was a range of opinion in both parties and among independents on a host of issues having to do with individual liberties.

Are individual liberties not implicated by card-check legislation? Gun control? Campaign contribution limits? Weath redistribution? Mandatory Social Security and Medicare contributions? Emissions standards? Lead-content restrictions? Lawsuit abuse?

Individual liberties is more than just having the right to call Osama Bin Laden in Waziristan with the assurance that the government must obtain a warrant to listen in.

My fault for egging you on.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2009, 03:37:42 pm »
Individual liberties is more than just having the right to call Osama Bin Laden in Waziristan anyone with the assurance that the government must obtain a warrant to listen in.

FIFY
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2009, 03:43:25 pm »
Always ready to go to a game.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2009, 03:45:45 pm »
That ain't youtube or cricket

Whoops.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

homer

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6509
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2009, 03:54:32 pm »
FIFY

Tice doesn't know all the details. Collecting the metadata is arguably the province of the NSA, which Tice alludes to, but he admits that the agency was compartmentalized and he can't say for sure that the collected metadata was abused in any way.

The abuse of the data, or the targeting of an individual that is not calling Osama, would be the 'wiretapping everyone'.
Oye. Vamos, vamos.

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2009, 04:00:17 pm »
That ain't youtube or cricket

I would imagine the chances would be quite high of Limey's talking about youtube or cricket whilst the feds were surreptitiously listening in to his conversations, so it really isn't that much of a stretch.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregĂșntale a Pedro Navaja

Guinness

  • Guest
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2009, 04:02:08 pm »
I would imagine the chances would be quite high of Limey's talking about youtube or cricket whilst the feds were surreptitiously listening in to his conversations, so it really isn't that much of a stretch.

Maybe it's actually a very clever code he's posting in, sending messages to..um..people who watch cricket on youtube?

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #190 on: February 06, 2009, 06:23:02 pm »
I would imagine the chances would be quite high of Limey's talking about youtube or cricket whilst the feds were surreptitiously listening in to his conversations, so it really isn't that much of a stretch.

The trouble was that they didn't know what I was saying, because they fired all the translators for being gay.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #191 on: February 11, 2009, 12:19:24 pm »
Apparently, marijuana use increases your risk of testicular cancer.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

sporadic

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1954
    • View Profile
Re: Michael Phelps is back in the news. Not in a good way.
« Reply #192 on: February 13, 2009, 11:53:28 am »
Minor League Hockey team has "don't be like Mike night"...pretty funny stuff

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Minor-league-team-tokes-the-line-with-Michael-Ph?urn=nhl,140741