Author Topic: Palin. WTF?  (Read 381437 times)

EasTexAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1000 on: September 09, 2008, 12:50:03 pm »
To change the subject slightly, even though I am enjoyig the Palin stuff, this seems interesting:

Quote
While 82% of voters who support McCain believe the justices should rule on what is in the Constitution, just 29% of Barack Obama’s supporters agree. Just 11% of McCain supporters say judges should rule based on the judge’s sense of fairness, while nearly half (49%) of Obama supporters agree.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/supreme_court_ratings/supreme_court_update

I know I am uneducated, but isn't the job of the SC to rule based on the Constitution?
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

Bench

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1001 on: September 09, 2008, 12:51:54 pm »
So, her detractors, for the most part are condescending scolds?

Who also happen to commit the unimaginable sin of not limiting themselves to iceberg lettuce.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1002 on: September 09, 2008, 12:54:03 pm »
So, her detractors, for the most part are condescending scolds?

McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D92S4UQO0&apc=9008

I admit, in fact I revel in being an arrogant elitist when it comes to obtaining, processing and understanding information.  I try to do this myself and admire others who have these skills.  College is not a prerequisite for these skills.  However there is a dangerous anti-intellectualism in this country.  I am disgusted that so many people are willing to trust and vote for a person they'd never heard of 2 weeks ago. 

austro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1003 on: September 09, 2008, 12:54:24 pm »
Who also happen to commit the unimaginable sin of not limiting themselves to iceberg lettuce.

Arugulites.
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Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1004 on: September 09, 2008, 01:05:43 pm »
I am disgusted that so many people are willing to trust and vote for a person they'd never heard of 2 weeks ago. 

I am disgusted that people would vote for a man with such a liberal voting record and zero experience.

EasTexAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1005 on: September 09, 2008, 01:07:05 pm »
McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D92S4UQO0&apc=9008

I admit, in fact I revel in being an arrogant elitist when it comes to obtaining, processing and understanding information.  I try to do this myself and admire others who have these skills.  College is not a prerequisite for these skills.  However there is a dangerous anti-intellectualism in this country.  I am disgusted that so many people are willing to trust and vote for a person they'd never heard of 2 weeks ago. 

Quote
McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college, a group Obama lost badly in the Democratic primaries to Hillary Rodham Clinton

I needed the whole quote. For some reason, uneducated people just hate Obama....doesn't seem to matter who he is running against. Even Democrats seem to fall into this group.

Quote
Obama also has large leads among Hispanics and people under age 30, in both cases outdoing Kerry's 2004 performances.

Those are generally highly educated groups with lots of maturity and life experiences...

Quote
Obama and McCain are about even among white women and the Democrat leads among suburban women – both improvements over 2004.

Again, some of the highest educated people are suburban women....or not....I really have no idea.

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The survey was taken before McCain selected Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.


What? I thought this was about Palin?

Quote
Apparently not.  And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.  Unfortunate but true.

?

It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1006 on: September 09, 2008, 01:07:50 pm »
McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D92S4UQO0&apc=9008

College is not a prerequisite for these skills.

So you present a statistic for a demographic that you admit is not a pre-requisite for intelligence as proof that those that support him are unintelligent.

Do you see how your syllogism in flawed on your own, or do you need to google it to find the answer?
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1007 on: September 09, 2008, 01:10:14 pm »
McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D92S4UQO0&apc=9008

That does not support your assertion that "her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated."


Quote
I admit, in fact I revel in being an arrogant elitist when it comes to obtaining, processing and understanding information.  I try to do this myself and admire others who have these skills.  College is not a prerequisite for these skills.  However there is a dangerous anti-intellectualism in this country.  I am disgusted that so many people are willing to trust and vote for a person they'd never heard of 2 weeks ago. 

I work with a large number of the most accomplished obtainers, processors, and understanders of information anywhere.  I wouldn't trust most of them with my 7 year old.  Most consider those not as accomplished as them to be truly inferior.  Intellectualism and responsibility do not go hand in hand.  They are orthoginal.  I agree that we should strive to reach our intellectual capacity.  Unfortunately, too often, political discussions devolve to the lowest depths of anti-intellectualism.
Goin' for a bus ride.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1008 on: September 09, 2008, 01:11:59 pm »
So you present a statistic for a demographic that you admit is not a pre-requisite for intelligence as proof that those that support him are unintelligent.

Do you see how your syllogism in flawed on your own, or do you need to google it to find the answer?

No I'm pretty sure of what I'm seeing.  I hedged because nothing is 100%.  But, and I don't think this can be argued, most people made up their minds about the Republican VP nomination using very little information.  And are ignoring any further information regarding her record.   That's just not very smart.

Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1009 on: September 09, 2008, 01:15:29 pm »
No I'm pretty sure of what I'm seeing.  I hedged because nothing is 100%.  But, and I don't think this can be argued, most people made up their minds about the Republican VP nomination using very little information.  And are ignoring any further information regarding her record.   That's just not very smart.

Most people have made up there mind about the next PRESIDENT.  I do agree that the more attention givin to Palin, the easier it will be for McCain to be elected.  All within the plan.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1010 on: September 09, 2008, 01:16:45 pm »
That does not support your assertion that "her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated."


I work with a large number of the most accomplished obtainers, processors, and understanders of information anywhere.  I wouldn't trust most of them with my 7 year old.  Most consider those not as accomplished as them to be truly inferior.  Intellectualism and responsibility do not go hand in hand.  They are orthoginal.  I agree that we should strive to reach our intellectual capacity.  Unfortunately, too often, political discussions devolve to the lowest depths of anti-intellectualism.

Ok, there are other methods of becoming educated.  One could read a lot of books, one could conduct experiments in their free time, travel, talk to a lot of people who are specialists in their field.  Who does this?  Unfortunately attending college is the best indicator of an educated person.   Responsibility is admittedly not restricted to the educated.  The developers of the atomic bomb were extremely educated.  However, the process of become responsible is not automatic.  And responsible decisions about complicated topics are not made using superficial information.

Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1011 on: September 09, 2008, 01:18:18 pm »
And responsible decisions about complicated topics are not made using superficial information.

And I could use this very same statement in talking about Obama.

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1012 on: September 09, 2008, 01:22:44 pm »
Ok, there are other methods of becoming educated.  One could read a lot of books, one could conduct experiments in their free time, travel, talk to a lot of people who are specialists in their field.  Who does this?  Unfortunately attending college is the best indicator of an educated person.   Responsibility is admittedly not restricted to the educated.  The developers of the atomic bomb were extremely educated.  However, the process of become responsible is not automatic.  And responsible decisions about complicated topics are not made using superficial information.

So people's level of education is irrelevent.  What's relevent is how much they educate themselves about the candidates.

I know a lot of people who are educated, truly, about Obama and his work in the US Senate and the Illinois legislature that are convinced he would be an unmitigated disaster as President.  Of course I know many with the same level of education about McCain that believe he hasn't a clue what he'd with specific economic matters beyond handing them off to his Cabinet.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1013 on: September 09, 2008, 01:23:42 pm »
And I could use this very same statement in talking about Obama.

Not really. He has tested his ideas with people and with legislative initiatives.   And although his ideas have not been implemented yet, and we can't know that they will succeed until he tries them, (a trick lots of his critics seem to think possible) many people think that they are good ideas. 

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1014 on: September 09, 2008, 01:26:03 pm »
He has tested his ideas with people and with legislative initiatives.

And although his ideas have not been implemented yet, and we can't know that they will succeed until he tries them

One of those things don't quite follow the other.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1015 on: September 09, 2008, 01:26:24 pm »
So people's level of education is irrelevent.  What's relevent is how much they educate themselves about the candidates.

I know a lot of people who are educated, truly, about Obama and his work in the US Senate and the Illinois legislature that are convinced he would be an unmitigated disaster as President.  Of course I know many with the same level of education about McCain that believe he hasn't a clue what he'd with specific economic matters beyond handing them off to his Cabinet.

And a lot of people think the opposite.  It's why we have elections. Unfortunately most people decide their votes using very little information.

jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1016 on: September 09, 2008, 01:27:15 pm »
McCain leads by 11 points among whites who've not completed college
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D92S4UQO0&apc=9008

And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.

Because McCain/Palin is leading in that particular demographic, it means the rest of their supporters are also uneducated?
I say smorgasbord!

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1017 on: September 09, 2008, 01:27:18 pm »
One of those things don't quite follow the other.

You're one of those who wants his programs to succeed before he actually implements them aren't you.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1018 on: September 09, 2008, 01:28:05 pm »
Because McCain/Palin is leading in that particular demographic, it means the rest of their supporters are also uneducated?


Yes of course, all Republicans are uneducated.  Exactly.  That's exactly what I mean.

EasTexAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1019 on: September 09, 2008, 01:28:22 pm »
Also, it sold for a loss, not a profit.

Quote
Gov. Palin has spent far less on her personal travel than her predecessor: $93,000 on airfare in 2007, compared with $463,000 spent the year before by her predecessor, Frank Murkowski. He traveled often in an executive jet that Palin called an extravagance during her campaign. She sold it after she was sworn into office.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088_2.html?hpid=topnews&sub=AR&sid=ST2008090900325&s_pos=
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1020 on: September 09, 2008, 01:31:05 pm »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088_2.html?hpid=topnews&sub=AR&sid=ST2008090900325&s_pos=

One of the expense items on that jet was to fly Alaskan prisoners to a jail in Arizona that they had contracted with to house their inmates.  I'm unsure how those inmates were transported after the jet was sold.

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1021 on: September 09, 2008, 01:31:34 pm »
You're one of those who wants his programs to succeed before he actually implements them aren't you.

Notice the word follow, part of that whole logic thing.

You cannot claim something has been tested if it has never been implemented.

Asking some random people on the street if they think something is a good idea, doesn't exactly qualify.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1022 on: September 09, 2008, 01:32:52 pm »
Yes of course, all Republicans are uneducated.  Exactly.  That's exactly what I mean.


[pravata]
Apparently not.  And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.  Unfortunate but true.
[/pravata]
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1023 on: September 09, 2008, 01:33:47 pm »
Yes of course, all Republicans are uneducated.  Exactly.  That's exactly what I mean.

Wow, sarcasm.  Maybe you should be clearer, then.  Who are you talking about when you say "her supporters?"
I say smorgasbord!

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1024 on: September 09, 2008, 01:33:58 pm »
One of the expense items on that jet was to fly Alaskan prisoners to a jail in Arizona that they had contracted with to house their inmates.  I'm unsure how those inmates were transported after the jet was sold.

Because that has anything to do with personal travel budget?  Or the amount of money saved/spent on waste?  That the transfer or prisoner's comes out of her personal money and not some other part of the state budget?  Or that there is no other way conceivable to transfer prisoners besides on a Governor's personal jet?

This is tiresome.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1025 on: September 09, 2008, 01:35:11 pm »
Because that has anything to do with personal travel budget?  Or the amount of money saved/spent on waste?  That the transfer or prisoner's comes out of her personal money and not some other part of the state budget?  Or that there is no other way conceivable to transfer prisoners besides on a Governor's personal jet?

This is tiresome.

Yes it is.  The travel budget savings cited does not compare like items. 

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1026 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:00 pm »
Wow, sarcasm.  Maybe you should be clearer, then.  Who are you talking about when you say "her supporters?"

Typing slowly, the people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans now that she is the Vice Presidential nomination.

Ty in Tampa

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1027 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:08 pm »
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1028 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:34 pm »
And a lot of people think the opposite.  It's why we have elections. Unfortunately most people decide their votes using very little information.

And some people have too much information. I am forced to vote for one or the other if I want my vote counted. I don't really like either choice. Where does that put me?
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1029 on: September 09, 2008, 01:36:38 pm »

[pravata]
Apparently not.  And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.  Unfortunate but true.
[/pravata]


because "for the most part" means all? 

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1030 on: September 09, 2008, 01:37:25 pm »
And some people have too much information. I am forced to vote for one or the other if I want my vote counted. I don't really like either choice. Where does that put me?

The usual.  The best people wont run for office precisely because of this crap.

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1031 on: September 09, 2008, 01:39:24 pm »
And a lot of people think the opposite.  It's why we have elections. Unfortunately most people decide their votes using very little information.

And that goes sadly, in my experience, equally for both parties.
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Trey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1032 on: September 09, 2008, 01:39:58 pm »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088_2.html?hpid=topnews&sub=AR&sid=ST2008090900325&s_pos=

I'm not arguing that.  She didn't say "I spent less on travel."  McCain didn't say that either.  McCain said she sold the plane on ebay for a profit.  That was absolutely not true.  Palin parsed words in her speech that it wouldn't be false.  Either no one told McCain, or he chose to ignore that and heard what she was "not saying".
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1033 on: September 09, 2008, 01:40:41 pm »
Yes it is.  The travel budget savings cited does not compare like items. 

So you have no idea, and yet can imply that she somehow is claiming savings on something that may or may not have been in the budget.  

Push-Poller.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1034 on: September 09, 2008, 01:42:06 pm »
One of the expense items on that jet was to fly Alaskan prisoners to a jail in Arizona that they had contracted with to house their inmates.  I'm unsure how those inmates were transported after the jet was sold.

Oh! OH! I know this one!
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1035 on: September 09, 2008, 01:42:58 pm »
Typing slowly, the people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans now that she is the Vice Presidential nomination.

The poll you were citing was before she was selected...right?
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

EasTexAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1036 on: September 09, 2008, 01:46:18 pm »
I'm not arguing that.  She didn't say "I spent less on travel."  McCain didn't say that either.  McCain said she sold the plane on ebay for a profit.  That was absolutely not true.  Palin parsed words in her speech that it wouldn't be false.  Either no one told McCain, or he chose to ignore that and heard what she was "not saying".

Then McCain screwed up. I am curious as to whether the expense of keeping it and using it is more than the loss the state took selling it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1037 on: September 09, 2008, 01:48:02 pm »
Typing slowly, the people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans now that she is the Vice Presidential nomination.

Those I've talked to who are in that camp say they do they care much about her record and do not expect her to ever be president but will vote for McCain because he will have in his administration a voice for the hard right in his decision-making process.  They know he may not listen to her, but they want the voice there.
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1038 on: September 09, 2008, 01:48:28 pm »
Typing slowly, the people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans now that she is the Vice Presidential nomination.

Hmmm.  I wonder what makes up the majority of the "people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans."  And I wonder how you know that the "people who say they are going to vote for the Republicans" are, "for the most part (are) not that well educated."
I say smorgasbord!

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1039 on: September 09, 2008, 01:49:37 pm »
Then McCain screwed up. I am curious as to whether the expense of keeping it and using it is more than the loss the state took selling it.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone in his camp or Palin's camp to him it sold for a profit.  Both McCain's and Obama's camps have staffers who are quite cavalier with information.
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mihoba

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1040 on: September 09, 2008, 01:49:49 pm »
Oh! OH! I know this one!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1041 on: September 09, 2008, 01:57:32 pm »
I am disgusted that people would vote for a man with such a liberal voting record and zero experience.

I am disgusted that people would vote for a man who suffered untold amounts of torture, and yet embraces a President who approves of the use of torture.

See?  It works both ways.
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1042 on: September 09, 2008, 02:02:25 pm »
I am disgusted that people would vote for a man who suffered untold amounts of torture, and yet embraces a President who approves of the use of torture.

See?  It works both ways.

Does McCain approve of torture?  Because that seems a whole lot more relevant to me than what Bush approves of.
I say smorgasbord!

Taras Bulba

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1043 on: September 09, 2008, 02:05:12 pm »
Caesar's set the odds on this thing making sixty pages at 9-1.  Any takers?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1044 on: September 09, 2008, 02:08:34 pm »
Caesar's set the odds on this thing making sixty pages at 9-1.  Any takers?

Oh hell yeah, put me down for $5. And I'll take my free drink ticket, thanks.
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Trey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1045 on: September 09, 2008, 02:08:57 pm »
Does McCain approve of torture?  Because that seems a whole lot more relevant to me than what Bush approves of.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/09/MNBHVGLVO.DTL
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1046 on: September 09, 2008, 02:09:08 pm »
Caesar's set the odds on this thing making sixty pages at 9-1.  Any takers?

I took 80 pages at 100-1 30 pages ago.
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Trey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1047 on: September 09, 2008, 02:10:27 pm »
I took 80 pages at 100-1 30 pages ago.

Arky and Limey have been relatively quiet recently.  Did Darren Pollard come in and take them out?  It's doable, but not nearly as much of a lock as it was before then.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1048 on: September 09, 2008, 02:10:31 pm »
I love this thread.  Lots of information from both sides being shared.  As long as it does deteriorate like a rotten tomato leave it alone.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1049 on: September 09, 2008, 02:12:55 pm »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1050 on: September 09, 2008, 02:15:29 pm »
Far more nuanced than simply torture or not.

nuanced = when it serves one's needs
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1051 on: September 09, 2008, 02:16:04 pm »
Ok, there are other methods of becoming educated.  One could read a lot of books, one could conduct experiments in their free time...

I am very close to fulfulling a lifelong dream of digging a big hole in the ground, and re-creating the big bang.  I see no reason why things shouldn't go well...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1052 on: September 09, 2008, 02:16:08 pm »
Does McCain approve of torture?  Because that seems a whole lot more relevant to me than what Bush approves of.

McCain, the "original maverick", voted to eject a bill that would have imposed the Army field manual, i.e., no torture.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1053 on: September 09, 2008, 02:16:58 pm »
Far more nuanced than simply torture or not.

I'm not going to argue that there isn't some nuance to this, but there's a manual that says what you can and can't do.  This law basically said, if you don't won't to follow it, you don't have to.  Like I said, there is some nuance, but I think it's hard to argue that your anti-torture when you come out in support of a president vetoing this, once it had been passed (albeit closely) by Congress.  It would seem like if you're anti-torture, you could certainly vote against this and sit on the sidelines.  McCain actively encouraged Bush to veto it.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1054 on: September 09, 2008, 02:17:17 pm »
Far more nuanced than simply torture or not.

Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1055 on: September 09, 2008, 02:19:29 pm »
Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.

I would also like for him to explain what useful information is gained from "enhanced interrogation".  If his experience is an indicator, then we're getting the Arabic equivalent of the Green Bay offensive line.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1056 on: September 09, 2008, 02:21:38 pm »
PS: McCain knew that the veto would be upheld.  He had all the political cover he needed.  And he voted against the bill anyway.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1057 on: September 09, 2008, 02:25:26 pm »
I am very close to fulfulling a lifelong dream of digging a big hole in the ground, and re-creating the big bang.  I see no reason why things shouldn't go well...

Let's be real honest, if by some chance those guys create a black hole that goes sucking everything in a la "The Nothing" in The Neverending Story, that is going to be fucking bad ass.  For like the 11 minutes that we're all alive to witness it.  I just hope that when we come out the other side it's one of those futuristic Tron looking worlds.  That would be sweet.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1058 on: September 09, 2008, 02:27:30 pm »
Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.

I know nothing of this, but from the first link I gathered:

The vetoed bill said the CIA must follow the Army manual that listed acceptable techniques.  McCain does not believe there should be a published list of acceptable techniques, but rather a list of unacceptable techniques.  The law he convinced the President to sign forbade the military from using those techniques.  Presumably, he would support a similar law for the CIA.  I do not know why the first did not include the CIA, or why the second changed tactics and focused on the acceptable technique list rather than the previously successful tactic.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1059 on: September 09, 2008, 02:28:50 pm »
Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.

One of the nuances that struck me was that for the Army, sleep deprivation is illegal.  I wouldn't put that in the same category as waterboarding.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1060 on: September 09, 2008, 02:29:48 pm »
I know nothing of this, but from the first link I gathered:

The vetoed bill said the CIA must follow the Army manual that listed acceptable techniques.  McCain does not believe there should be a published list of acceptable techniques, but rather a list of unacceptable techniques.  The law he convinced the President to sign forbade the military from using those techniques.  Presumably, he would support a similar law for the CIA.  I do not know why the first did not include the CIA, or why the second changed tactics and focused on the acceptable technique list rather than the previously successful tactic.

So, basically, if you can think up something new that hasn't been banned, then it's good.  Or, better yet, if you get a lawyer to find a loophole in the wording, that's good, too.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1061 on: September 09, 2008, 02:30:46 pm »
Let's be real honest, if by some chance those guys create a black hole that goes sucking everything in a la "The Nothing" in The Neverending Story, that is going to be fucking bad ass. 

You son of a bitch!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1062 on: September 09, 2008, 02:32:45 pm »
Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.

This, more than any other issue about McCain makes me very worried about him as President.  Because he knows, better than anyone in Washington, that coersive interrogation does not get you good information, it gets you what you want to hear (otherwise why do you stop?).  He knows this because he famously gave the North Vietnamese the names of the Green Bay Packers starting offensive line, when they wanted the names of his fellow pilots.

The thing with torture is that the only way to get it to stop is to tell the interrogators something that will make them stop.  So, if they want to know the names of people in your terrorist cell but you unfortunately don't know any terrorists because you're not one yourself, you will give up a bunch of names, and maybe make up some terror plots, because this is the only way to get them to stop.  It doesn't matter that this may be complete bullshit - they won't figure that out for a while and in the meantime you get to keep your head above water.

And then what happens is that the FBI, CIA and DHS go off on a wild goose chase, wasting time and resources, while being convinced that they're on the right track because they're chasing down some "good intel".  Anyone picked up in this swoop will then continue the cycle as they throw out more bogus information to "make it stop".  Meanwhile, real terrorists may slip by unnoticed because the intelligence agencies are busy barking up wrong trees.

This is how torture makes us less safe.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1063 on: September 09, 2008, 02:33:14 pm »
I would also like for him to explain what useful information is gained from "enhanced interrogation".  If his experience is an indicator, then we're getting the Arabic equivalent of the Green Bay offensive line.

Dammit!  RMPL.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1064 on: September 09, 2008, 02:33:37 pm »
Then it would be nice if McCain would fully explain the nuances of his position, because I have a difficult time understanding it.

McCain's response
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1065 on: September 09, 2008, 02:35:13 pm »
So, basically, if you can think up something new that hasn't been banned, then it's good.  Or, better yet, if you get a lawyer to find a loophole in the wording, that's good, too.

That doesn't make much sense to me.  I know, stunning.  But if something is new it can't have been defined, by whoever does the defining, as torture.  Does the law require that anything new be submitted to some authority for approval before being used?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1066 on: September 09, 2008, 02:36:02 pm »
So, basically, if you can think up something new that hasn't been banned, then it's good.  Or, better yet, if you get a lawyer to find a loophole in the wording, that's good, too.

Presumably that's a little more difficult than you would like to make it sound, but granted that is a real risk.  On the flip side, limiting ourselves to documented techniques might prove less effective on a ever-changing battlefield.  I don't know the right answer here, but it appears to be a much deeper conversation than just McCain supports torture which many have implied by the vetoing of this legislation.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1067 on: September 09, 2008, 02:41:01 pm »
McCain's response

This stuff is a bit of a red herring, because the Bush Administration also had a habit of outsourcing torture to other countries, and whatever Federal regulations get enacted are unlikely to apply in, say, Syria.

The bottom line is that it is important for the candidates to come out against the U.S. using torture - as it is defined in the international sphere and/or the Geneva Conventions (which are neither quaint nor wishy-washy) - as the case used to be before Cheney set about muddying the waters.  I believe Obama has made statements along these lines but I have not seen McCain do so, but I would be very happy for someone to post something here.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1068 on: September 09, 2008, 02:41:35 pm »
One of the nuances that struck me was that for the Army, sleep deprivation is illegal.  I wouldn't put that in the same category as waterboarding.

I wonder what McCain thought then?  (see p.13:)

Quote
One of the standard methods to wear down a prisoner's resistence to their demands was the use of what could be described as "self-induced" punishment.  That is to say, prisoners being ordered to sit, kneel, or stand for long periods of time deprived of rest or sleep.  This form of torture, without laying a hand on a prisoner, was sometimes very successful in breaking his will.

John McCain of 1974 would never have voted against that bill.  John McCain of 2000 would never have voted against that bill.  Those versions of John McCain aren't running for President.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1069 on: September 09, 2008, 02:46:54 pm »
McCain's response

Thanks, this helps somewhat. I would very much like some elaboration on what techniques McCain believes that the CIA should be able to employ that are not permitted by the Army Field Manual. That, to me, is the most relevant piece in understanding McCain's support of the veto. If I've overlooked it, someone please point it out to me.
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« Reply #1070 on: September 09, 2008, 02:53:21 pm »
Thanks, this helps somewhat. I would very much like some elaboration on what techniques McCain believes that the CIA should be able to employ that are not permitted by the Army Field Manual. That, to me, is the most relevant piece in understanding McCain's support of the veto. If I've overlooked it, someone please point it out to me.

Seconded.

ED:  I find it disturbing that I'm questioning McCain on this while at the same time I'm sitting here assuming that someone else would have to tell Obama what torture is and not wondering why I was having no problem with that.  And that it did not occur to me to question Obama's wisdom in cases of interrogation until just now.  It appears I've been giving him something of a free ride.  I wonder if that has anything to do with his lack of experience in comparison to McCain?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:57:34 pm by Jacksonian »
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1071 on: September 09, 2008, 02:53:51 pm »
This stuff is a bit of a red herring, because the Bush Administration also had a habit of outsourcing torture to other countries, and whatever Federal regulations get enacted are unlikely to apply in, say, Syria.

The bottom line is that it is important for the candidates to come out against the U.S. using torture - as it is defined in the international sphere and/or the Geneva Conventions (which are neither quaint nor wishy-washy) - as the case used to be before Cheney set about muddying the waters.  I believe Obama has made statements along these lines but I have not seen McCain do so, but I would be very happy for someone to post something here.

Link

Quote
Sen. John McCain of Arizona, a former Vietnam prisoner of war, is among several powerful Republicans who have denounced Bush's proposal, which the president said is vital to winning the war on terrorism. (Watch as Bush urges clarity on Conventions -- 3:05)

McCain said after Bush's speech that he respected the president's position. But, he said, "The protection our personnel require is not limited to freedom from lawsuits and unjust criminal prosecutions. They also need -- and deserve -- the undiluted protections offered since 1949 by the Geneva Conventions.

"For this reason, I oppose unilaterally reinterpreting in law Geneva Common Article 3," McCain said.

Quote
McCain echoed Powell's sentiment after Bush's speech, saying that weakening the Geneva protections would set a poor example for "other countries with less respect for basic human rights."
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:56:23 pm by jonbloozy »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1072 on: September 09, 2008, 02:56:22 pm »
Thanks, this helps somewhat. I would very much like some elaboration on what techniques McCain believes that the CIA should be able to employ that are not permitted by the Army Field Manual. That, to me, is the most relevant piece in understanding McCain's support of the veto. If I've overlooked it, someone please point it out to me.

Unfortunately, his position (to me) seems to be that elaborating on those techniques is exactly what should NOT happen.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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« Reply #1073 on: September 09, 2008, 02:59:36 pm »
Unfortunately, his position (to me) seems to be that elaborating on those techniques is exactly what should NOT happen.

My lack of knowledge concerning interrogation, torture, and the line separating them is getting in my way.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1074 on: September 09, 2008, 03:03:05 pm »
My lack of knowledge concerning interrogation, torture, and the line separating them is getting in my way.

Which is why I'm trying to stick to McCain's knowledge.  He has out-and-out standed that these methods are torture, he has stated that the US should never torture, but has failed to support these measures that would ensure that the US never does torture.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1075 on: September 09, 2008, 03:10:42 pm »
Unfortunately, his position (to me) seems to be that elaborating on those techniques is exactly what should NOT happen.

That's the best I've been able to figure, too. What I saw was a vocalized opposition to torture based on internationally accepted standards, but an aversion to specifically legislating that for the CIA. I see that he opposes using a public military guide for a secretive non-military entity, stating that they should have additional interrogation methods available to them, but not saying what those methods might be. I assume we're not talking about telling the prisoners boring stories or withholding dessert if they don't cooperate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1076 on: September 09, 2008, 03:11:57 pm »
I love this thread.  Lots of information from both sides being shared.  As long as it does deteriorate like a rotten tomato leave it alone.

How about fuck you?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1077 on: September 09, 2008, 03:12:27 pm »
Which is why I'm trying to stick to McCain's knowledge.  He has out-and-out standed that these methods are torture, he has stated that the US should never torture, but has failed to support these measures that would ensure that the US never does torture.

I ask these questions too.  But as I navigate my vote (knowing full well that my vote will only count if I cast for either McCain or Obama) I have to ask about Obama's knowledge.  What does he know and how much will he have to rely on others to make decisions?  And, if so, who are these others?  And what do they think?  I have less than 2 months to get it sorted out.
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« Reply #1078 on: September 09, 2008, 03:16:39 pm »
That's the best I've been able to figure, too. What I saw was a vocalized opposition to torture based on internationally accepted standards, but an aversion to specifically legislating that for the CIA. I see that he opposes using a public military guide for a secretive non-military entity, stating that they should have additional interrogation methods available to them, but not saying what those methods might be. I assume we're not talking about telling the prisoners boring stories or withholding dessert if they don't cooperate.

Anyone got a copy of the Detainee Act he referenced?  I wonder if in the discussions relating to the act that McCain points out specifically left out the CIA Congress didn't discuss privately much of what we're wondering?
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jonbloozy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1079 on: September 09, 2008, 03:17:26 pm »
Time article about McCain and torture

Quote
"The field manual, a public document written for military use, is not always directly translatable to use by intelligence officers," McCain explained in February, reiterating his position from 2005. He added that the CIA should be allowed to use "alternative interrogation techniques," that are not otherwise outlawed as unduly coercive, cruel, inhumane or degrading. McCain has not publicly described the techniques that he believes fall into that category.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1080 on: September 09, 2008, 03:19:14 pm »
Obama took a lot of heat for saying that we should hit the terrorists in Pakistan if the Pakistani government was unwilling to do so.  Well, we've started doing that just now so I guess it's not a bad idea anymore.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1081 on: September 09, 2008, 03:20:49 pm »
Arky and Limey have been relatively quiet recently.  Did Darren Pollard come in and take them out?  It's doable, but not nearly as much of a lock as it was before then.

I just got back from a long lunch (not with Limey). What did I miss?!?!?!?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1082 on: September 09, 2008, 03:24:22 pm »
Anyone got a copy of the Detainee Act he referenced?  I wonder if in the discussions relating to the act that McCain points out specifically left out the CIA Congress didn't discuss privately much of what we're wondering?

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9865/

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1083 on: September 09, 2008, 03:25:02 pm »
That does not support your assertion that "her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated."


I work with a large number of the most accomplished obtainers, processors, and understanders of information anywhere.  I wouldn't trust most of them with my 7 year old.  Most consider those not as accomplished as them to be truly inferior.  Intellectualism and responsibility do not go hand in hand.  They are orthoginal.  I agree that we should strive to reach our intellectual capacity.  Unfortunately, too often, political discussions devolve to the lowest depths of anti-intellectualism.

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Palin's supporters would likely replace "Boston" with another city.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1084 on: September 09, 2008, 03:25:20 pm »
Obama took a lot of heat for saying that we should hit the terrorists in Pakistan if the Pakistani government was unwilling to do so.  Well, we've started doing that just now so I guess it's not a bad idea anymore.

To what are you referring to specifically?

Certain military operations had been ongoing to Pakistan but there were many things that Musharaf forbade that the US wanted to do.  He's no longer in power.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1085 on: September 09, 2008, 03:26:35 pm »
"I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University."

- William F. Buckley

Did a Harvard alum kill one of your relatives or something?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1086 on: September 09, 2008, 03:31:56 pm »
As I said, these were half-truths.  Stating that she put the plane on ebay is true, and it infers a take-charge, can-do attitude towards governance.  But the whole truth, is that she put it on ebay and it failed to sell, which suggests that she tried to sell a luxury jet without actually having the first clue about how to sell a luxury jet.  Then she did the same thing again, expecting a different result, and it didn't sell the second time either.  That suggests a cavalier, shoot first ask questions later, stubborn attitude towards governance, which might not go down so well with the public who are familiar with the attitude towards governance demonstrated by the current administration.

As for the chef, she moved the chef to another branch of government, while inferring that she saved money by getting rid of the chef.  She didn't save money at all, but she did strip away an excess of the Governor's office (a good thing).  But she chose not to say that she moved the chef to another branch of government, just the same as she chose not to say that she ended up paying a professional broker to sell the jet, because neither of those facts will get her a standing ovation at the convention.

No dice. A half-truth would be if she put it on eBay, it didn't sell, then she kept it. I, and I assume most of Palin's supporters, are less interested in her eBay aviation-hawking skills than in the fact that she decided to get rid of it and eventually did. But I'm pleased to see that you've been reduced to arguing about whether Palin has deficient judgment on the best way to quickly unload aircraft.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1087 on: September 09, 2008, 03:32:25 pm »
Palin's supporters would likely replace "Boston" with another city.

Are you sure that Wasilla has 400 telephones?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1088 on: September 09, 2008, 03:33:13 pm »
Did a Harvard alum kill one of your relatives or something?

Arky missed all the anti-intellectual stuff that was discussed while he was out to lunch.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1089 on: September 09, 2008, 03:33:26 pm »
Are you sure that Wasilla has 400 telephones?

Sexist push-polling hippie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1090 on: September 09, 2008, 03:33:54 pm »
No dice. A half-truth would be if she put it on eBay, it didn't sell, then she kept it. I, and I assume most of Palin's supporters, are less interested in her eBay aviation-hawking skills than in the fact that she decided to get rid of it and eventually did. But I'm pleased to see that you've been reduced to arguing about whether Palin has deficient judgment on the best way to quickly unload aircraft.

You need to keep reading beyond the above post.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1091 on: September 09, 2008, 03:34:03 pm »
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9865/

Ok, so no specifics on torture/interrogation beyond referring the reader to other documents.

I wonder then if there weren't extensive discussions amongst our legislators concerning specific actions and whether the Act should include the CIA.

I was quite taken with the fact that non-military people were reference in other parts of the bill but that only the military was subject to the limits on interrogation.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1092 on: September 09, 2008, 03:34:16 pm »
Until recently, raids in to the tribal areas of Pakistan were very rare and required cabinet level approval.  In July Central Command was given the authority to ok the raids.  In late August after Petraeus took over Central Command, the US started sending almost daily raids.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1093 on: September 09, 2008, 03:34:25 pm »
Did a Harvard alum kill one of your relatives or something?

Not to my knowledge. All of them I know are really smart people. Some of them don't have the judgment of a turnip, however.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1094 on: September 09, 2008, 03:35:55 pm »
You need to keep reading beyond the above post.

I read all of it. Nothing in there changes that using this as a "half-truth" against Palin is silly. If you want to nail McCain for uttering bullshit about it, I don't have a problem with that. It wouldn't be the first time.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1095 on: September 09, 2008, 03:36:21 pm »
Not to my knowledge. All of them I know are really smart people. Some of them don't have the judgment of a turnip, however.

You mean, pretty similar to every single other college or university in the country?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1096 on: September 09, 2008, 03:36:30 pm »
Not to my knowledge. All of them I know are really smart people. Some of them don't have the judgment of a turnip, however.


Most of the Harvard lawyers I know are insufferable nitpicks obsessed with exploiting every little technicality to keep anything from moving forward.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1097 on: September 09, 2008, 03:38:33 pm »

Most of the Harvard lawyers I know are insufferable nitpicks obsessed with exploiting every little technicality to keep anything from moving forward.

{broken record}

you mean like every other lawyer in the country?

{/broken record}
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1098 on: September 09, 2008, 03:39:02 pm »

Most of the Harvard lawyers I know are insufferable nitpicks obsessed with exploiting every little technicality to keep anything from moving forward.

So they are at the top of their profession?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1099 on: September 09, 2008, 03:39:41 pm »
I read all of it. Nothing in there changes that using this as a "half-truth" against Palin is silly. If you want to nail McCain for uttering bullshit about it, I don't have a problem with that. It wouldn't be the first time.

You're missing the point I was making.  This same misinterpretation has been made previously in this thread.  I responded to that prior misinterpretation explicitly.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1100 on: September 09, 2008, 03:44:35 pm »
McCain pulls ahead in the polls.

It's quite possible McCain could win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1101 on: September 09, 2008, 03:44:39 pm »
You mean, pretty similar to every single other college or university in the country?

Basically.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1102 on: September 09, 2008, 03:45:31 pm »
McCain pulls ahead in the polls.

It's quite possible McCain could win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.

In summer of 2000, I used to say that it was ridiculous to think this could happen in a modern election, until ...

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1103 on: September 09, 2008, 03:46:36 pm »
Let's be real honest, if by some chance those guys create a black hole that goes sucking everything in a la "The Nothing" in The Neverending Story, that is going to be fucking bad ass.  For like the 11 minutes that we're all alive to witness it.  I just hope that when we come out the other side it's one of those futuristic Tron looking worlds.  That would be sweet.

If physicists knew how to make an entrance to an awesome Tron world, do you think we would tell you about it?  

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1104 on: September 09, 2008, 03:46:56 pm »
In summer of 2000, I used to say that it was ridiculous to think this could happen in a modern election, until ...

Until the Supreme Court intervened...

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1105 on: September 09, 2008, 03:47:05 pm »
It's quite possible McCain could win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.

Imagine the outrage...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1106 on: September 09, 2008, 03:49:02 pm »
Until the Supreme Court intervened...

Systematically disproven, but whatever, dude.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1107 on: September 09, 2008, 03:49:36 pm »
In summer of 2000, I used to say that it was ridiculous to think this could happen in a modern election, until ...

The funny thing is, right up to (and including election day), I was convinced Bush would win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1108 on: September 09, 2008, 03:49:50 pm »
Until the Supreme Court intervened...

IIRC, wasn't a Florida state court, the Florida Supreme court, and the US Supreme court all involved at some point?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1109 on: September 09, 2008, 03:50:07 pm »
Imagine the outrage...

Exactly.  And the sprints out to the driveway to pull the bumper-sticker off the Prius
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1110 on: September 09, 2008, 03:50:26 pm »
Basically.

Why, it's almost as if we could simply substitute the United States Naval Academy for Harvard when making pithy remarks.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1111 on: September 09, 2008, 03:51:14 pm »
One of those things don't quite follow the other.

The bigger problem is people willfully ignoring the infeasibility of policies like an immediate drawdown in Iraq (that appears to have been abandoned), energy independence in 10 years, catching Osama bin Laden simply by trying harder, paying for his new spending with tax cuts and cutting wasteful programs, talking some sense into Iran when the Europeans have been trying to do this for years, etc.

We know a great deal about what Obama says he will do policy-wise. We know very little about he actually intends to do, or what he actually thinks he can do. In this way, he may be more of a cipher than Palin.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 03:59:53 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1112 on: September 09, 2008, 03:51:17 pm »
McCain pulls ahead in the polls.

It's quite possible McCain could win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.

Relatedly, IMO, this article implies a state of concern I had not thought the Obama campaign would ever reach.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1113 on: September 09, 2008, 03:51:39 pm »
IIRC, wasn't a Florida state court, the Florida Supreme court, and the US Supreme court all involved at some point?

All operated in secret by clones of Karl Rove.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1114 on: September 09, 2008, 03:52:06 pm »
Why, it's almost as if we could simply substitute the United States Naval Academy for Harvard when making pithy remarks.

Exactly, why would you be interested in having someone whose peers, at the most presitgious law school in the fucking world, basically said, "he's the smartest guy here"?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1115 on: September 09, 2008, 03:52:36 pm »
Why, it's almost as if we could simply substitute the United States Naval Academy for Harvard when making pithy remarks.

I suppose, although I doubt it would have the same resonance. Does cracking on Harvard hit close to home or something?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1116 on: September 09, 2008, 03:52:54 pm »
Relatedly, IMO, this article implies a state of concern I had not thought the Obama campaign would ever reach.

Really?  This level of detail has been a hallmark of the Obama campaign since the first caucuses.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1117 on: September 09, 2008, 03:53:10 pm »
The bigger problem is people willfully ignoring the infeasibility of policies like an immediate drawdown in Iraq (that appears to have been abandoned), energy independence in 10 years, catching Osama bin Laden simply by trying harder, paying for his new spending with tax cuts and cutting wasteful programs, talking some sense into Iran when the Europeans have been trying to do this for years, etc.

We know a great deal about what Obama says he will to do policy-wise. We know very little about he actually intends to do, or what he actually thinks he can do. In this way, he may be more of a cipher than Palin.

like McCain being able to reach across the aisle after having his VP belittle the Dems for an hour, cutting out all earmarks, etc
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1118 on: September 09, 2008, 03:54:04 pm »
Systematically disproven, but whatever, dude.

What?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1119 on: September 09, 2008, 03:54:24 pm »
Why, it's almost as if we could simply substitute the United States Naval Academy for Harvard when making pithy remarks.

Except that McCain wasn't one of those elite intellectuals to come out of the Academy.  He finished 894th out of 899.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1120 on: September 09, 2008, 03:54:59 pm »
Exactly, why would you be interested in having someone whose peers, at the most presitgious law school in the fucking world, basically said, "he's the smartest guy here"?

I don't think anyone doubts that he's very smart, just like Yale-educated Bill Clinton is very smart. It helps for someone to be very smart to be president. But there are plenty of people who are very smart who aren't necessarily prepared to be president, and there are plenty of people who aren't as smart who could do the job.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1121 on: September 09, 2008, 03:55:22 pm »
Except that McCain wasn't one of those elite intellectuals to come out of the Academy.  He finished 894th out of 899.

Gee, and look where he ended up.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1122 on: September 09, 2008, 03:56:44 pm »
The funny thing is, right up to (and including election day), I was convinced Bush would win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.

I thought that was more likely too. The polls indicated it. Which tells you about how much you can rely on polls.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1123 on: September 09, 2008, 03:57:25 pm »
The bigger problem is people willfully ignoring the infeasibility of policies like an immediate drawdown in Iraq (that appears to have been abandoned), energy independence in 10 years, catching Osama bin Laden simply by trying harder, paying for his new spending with tax cuts and cutting wasteful programs, talking some sense into Iran when the Europeans have been trying to do this for years, etc.

We know a great deal about what Obama says he will to do policy-wise. We know very little about he actually intends to do, or what he actually thinks he can do. In this way, he may be more of a cipher than Palin.

So, better to press ahead with what McCain calls change, but is, in respect of all the major issues such as the war, the economy and healthcare, the same as what we've had for the last eight years.  Isn't there some axiom about repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different result?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1124 on: September 09, 2008, 03:58:29 pm »
Really?  This level of detail has been a hallmark of the Obama campaign since the first caucuses.

I was referring to the concern that there could actually be a tie in the electoral college not the emphasis on electoral votes.  I have always been under the impression that the Obama camp are convinced that come election day they will win by more than 2 electoral votes.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1125 on: September 09, 2008, 03:59:05 pm »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1126 on: September 09, 2008, 03:59:36 pm »
I thought that was more likely too. The polls indicated it. Which tells you about how much you can rely on polls.

Yes, but his brother gauranteed Florida for him, and had GWB's Florida campaign manager certify the votes.  Nothing to see here people, move along...

ETA:  Stalin said that it doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes...

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1127 on: September 09, 2008, 04:00:35 pm »
I thought that was more likely too. The polls indicated it. Which tells you about how much you can rely on polls.

Not that it's ever likely to happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing an outright ban on polls for the last few weeks of the campaign. I think they wind up distorting the voting, particularly on down-ballot elections.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1128 on: September 09, 2008, 04:01:03 pm »

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« Reply #1129 on: September 09, 2008, 04:01:07 pm »
Except that McCain wasn't one of those elite intellectuals to come out of the Academy.  He finished 894th out of 899.

Your making a case for McCain from where I sit.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1130 on: September 09, 2008, 04:03:28 pm »
Your making a case for McCain from where I sit.

How so?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1131 on: September 09, 2008, 04:03:56 pm »
Yes, but his brother gauranteed Florida for him, and had GWB's Florida campaign manager certify the votes.  Nothing to see here people, move along...

ETA:  Stalin said that it doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes...

Stalin also circulated lies as noxiously baseless as the horseshit you wrote above to undermine the legitimacy of his political opponents. I think MM is referring to the multiple informal post-election recounts that indicated that the only way Gore would have won is by recounting the votes using a standard even looser than Gore's lawyers were litigating for.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1132 on: September 09, 2008, 04:04:10 pm »
Not that it's ever likely to happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing an outright ban on polls for the last few weeks of the campaign. I think they wind up distorting the voting, particularly on down-ballot elections.

IIRC (it's been a while), this is what they do in the UK.  No opinion polls in the run up to the election (last week, I think).

Also, I find it amazing that the news outlets are allowed to make calls and predictions prior to all the polls closing.  Including those in Hawaii.  The need for news ratings and the impatience of the general public are not good reasons to interfere with a clean election.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1133 on: September 09, 2008, 04:04:47 pm »
I suppose, although I doubt it would have the same resonance. Does cracking on Harvard hit close to home or something?

No, not at all - I've never even met a Harvard Law grad. I just thought it was odd that you've swiped at Harvard a few times in this thread, and it occurred to me that an alum may have done you some particularly grievous wrong.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1134 on: September 09, 2008, 04:05:54 pm »
IIRC (it's been a while), this is what they do in the UK.  No opinion polls in the run up to the election (last week, I think).

Also, I find it amazing that the news outlets are allowed to make calls and predictions prior to all the polls closing.  Including those in Hawaii.  The need for news ratings and the impatience of the general public are not good reasons to interfere with a clean election.

One problem with this that Britain doesn't have to worry about.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1135 on: September 09, 2008, 04:08:23 pm »
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/111201a.html

So the belief that Bush won is more to do with the fact that the report came out just after 9/11, when the entire nation and pretty much the entire world was rallied around the U.S. and its President (what did he do with all that goodwill?), than the fact that he didn't, in fact, win.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1136 on: September 09, 2008, 04:08:55 pm »
I just got back from a long lunch (not with Limey). What did I miss?!?!?!?

Apparently Spack doesn't like me.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1137 on: September 09, 2008, 04:09:32 pm »
Apparently Spack doesn't like me.

You still have your spleen. Be happy.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1138 on: September 09, 2008, 04:09:37 pm »
No, not at all - I've never even met a Harvard Law grad. I just thought it was odd that you've swiped at Harvard a few times in this thread, and it occurred to me that an alum may have done you some particularly grievous wrong.

Nope. It's a model example of academic rigor and excellence.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1139 on: September 09, 2008, 04:09:39 pm »
How so?

Get Wiki on it.

Quote
McCain came into conflict with higher-ranking personnel, he did not always obey the rules, and that contributed to a low class rank (894 of 899) despite a strong intelligence. He did well in academic subjects that interested him, such as literature and history, but studied only enough to pass subjects he struggled with, such as mathematics.

His father and Grandfather were both 4-star Admirals. Interesting.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1140 on: September 09, 2008, 04:09:55 pm »
Apparently Spack doesn't like me.

He doesn't like anyone.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1141 on: September 09, 2008, 04:10:17 pm »
Except that McCain wasn't one of those elite intellectuals to come out of the Academy.  He finished 894th out of 899.

You're not going for the Senator Blutarskey reset, are you?  Either way, does this make Cindy McCain a Mandy Pepperidge?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1142 on: September 09, 2008, 04:10:32 pm »
How so?

I work with hundreds, literally, of the smartest man in the room, and wouldn't trust them to mind my 7 year old for 2 hours much less run the country.  They know the stuff they were trained to know.  But, outside of their professional world their judgement erodes radically.  And, yes, that group includes lawyers.

But, my statement was more sarcasm than actual representation of my thoughts.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1143 on: September 09, 2008, 04:10:37 pm »
Get Wiki on it.

His father and Grandfather were both 4-star Admirals. Interesting.

I understand that he also had a bit of a demerit problem.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1145 on: September 09, 2008, 04:20:10 pm »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1146 on: September 09, 2008, 04:22:03 pm »
How so?

Some people prefer a President with whom they'd like to share a beer, instead of a President who's smart.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1147 on: September 09, 2008, 04:22:47 pm »
So the belief that Bush won is more to do with the fact that the report came out just after 9/11, when the entire nation and pretty much the entire world was rallied around the U.S. and its President (what did he do with all that goodwill?), than the fact that he didn't, in fact, win.

Delirious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000

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Ultimately, the Media Consortium hired the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago to examine 175,010 ballots that were discounted; these ballots contained under-votes (votes with no choice made for president) and over-votes (votes made with more than one choice marked). Their goal was not to deduce who actually won the election but to determine the reliability and accuracy of the systems used for the voting process.

In the aftermath of the election, the first independent recount was conducted by The Miami Herald and USA Today. Counting only "undervotes" (when the vote is not detected by machine), and not considering "overvotes" (when a ballot ends up with more than one indication of a vote, for example both a punch-out and hand-written name, even if both indicating the same candidate) Bush would have won in all legally requested recount scenarios. If overvotes where the intent of the voter was clear were counted, using any consistent standard for 'clear intent of the voter', Gore would have won. This was not requested by either side at the time; the independent recount therefore led to a greater awareness of the issue of 'overvotes'.

Under the recount rules initially requested by Gore, Bush would have won, and under the rules requested by Bush, Gore would have won.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/media_watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html

http://www2.norc.org/fl/articles.asp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1148 on: September 09, 2008, 04:24:36 pm »
You're not going for the Senator Blutarskey reset, are you?  Either way, does this make Cindy McCain a Mandy Pepperidge?

She picked up a married man in a bar...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1149 on: September 09, 2008, 04:25:13 pm »
Some people prefer a President with whom they'd like to share a beer, instead of a President who's smart.

I'll take that as a shot at me.  Smart is not smartest man in the room.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1150 on: September 09, 2008, 04:26:56 pm »
I'll take that as a shot at me.  Smart is not smartest man in the room.

smart <> judgment

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1151 on: September 09, 2008, 04:28:59 pm »
Delirious.

You clearly didn't read the whole article.  It mentions the limited recount methods under which Bush maintained his lead, but points out that both those methods were thrown out by the various courts brought into the fray.  Thus, citing victory under those recount methods is a total red herring as neither was legal.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1152 on: September 09, 2008, 04:30:27 pm »
smart <> judgment

While smart does not imply judgement, nor does it exclude it.  The frustration for me (at least) seems to be that we're ruling out everyone who is smart, because there's some idiotic notion that people can't be smart and make good judgements.  You may not think that's Obama, and that's fine.  But there's no need to assume that just because he's smart he doesn't have good judgement.

ETA: added "n't" because I screwed up.  I am obviously not smart.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1153 on: September 09, 2008, 04:32:04 pm »
I'll take that as a shot at me.  Smart is not smartest man in the room.

Not at you.  One of the reasons cited for Bush's (past) popularity is that he's the sort of guy you'd like to have a beer with.  As opposed to Gore or Kerry who would bore the living shit out of you.  I wouldn't use this criteria to pick, for example, a surgeon, so I don't understand why it's apparently a popular way of choosing a President.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1154 on: September 09, 2008, 04:33:48 pm »
You clearly didn't read the whole article.  It mentions the limited recount methods under which Bush maintained his lead, but points out that both those methods were thrown out by the various courts brought into the fray.  Thus, citing victory under those recount methods is a total red herring as neither was legal.

I did read the whole article. It essentially rests on the premise that almost everybody was biased against Gore. I don't find it persuasive that PBS, The Washington Post, USA Today, etc. were all part of some grand right-wing conspiracy due to 9/11.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1155 on: September 09, 2008, 04:34:23 pm »
Not at you.  One of the reasons cited for Bush's (past) popularity is that he's the sort of guy you'd like to have a beer with.  As opposed to Gore or Kerry who would bore the living shit out of you.  I wouldn't use this criteria to pick, for example, a surgeon, so I don't understand why it's apparently a popular way of choosing a President.

For the record, I wouldn't want Obama or McCain to operate on me.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1156 on: September 09, 2008, 04:35:33 pm »
While smart does not imply judgement, nor does it exclude it.  The frustration for me (at least) seems to be that we're ruling out everyone who is smart, because there's some idiotic notion that people can't be smart and make good judgements.  You may not think that's Obama, and that's fine.  But there's no need to assume that just because he's smart he doesn't have good judgement.

ETA: added "n't" because I screwed up.  I am obviously not smart.

Not at all. But I think being smart isn't a prima facie qualification to be president. Richard Nixon was highly intelligent. Look where that got him.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1157 on: September 09, 2008, 04:36:59 pm »
While smart does not imply judgement, nor does it exclude it.  The frustration for me (at least) seems to be that we're ruling out everyone who is smart, because there's some idiotic notion that people can't be smart and make good judgements.  You may not think that's Obama, and that's fine.  But there's no need to assume that just because he's smart he doesn't have good judgement.

ETA: added "n't" because I screwed up.  I am obviously not smart.

If you're referring to my assertions you need to read them again.  Smart is not smartest man in the room.  Too often, in my experience, the smartest man in the room is the last person you want doing something he wasn't trained to do.  Too we discussed the difference between being educated and having good judgement.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1158 on: September 09, 2008, 04:37:09 pm »
The bigger problem is people willfully ignoring the infeasibility of policies like an immediate drawdown in Iraq (that appears to have been abandoned), energy independence in 10 years, catching Osama bin Laden simply by trying harder, paying for his new spending with tax cuts and cutting wasteful programs, talking some sense into Iran when the Europeans have been trying to do this for years, etc.

We know a great deal about what Obama says he will do policy-wise. We know very little about he actually intends to do, or what he actually thinks he can do. In this way, he may be more of a cipher than Palin.

It actually appears that you don't. A quick, cursory run through his campaign's proposed policies - and independent comparisons with McCain's - indicates that you're blatantly misrepresenting him. So maybe people aren't willfully ignoring the feasibility of these policies, maybe they're just considering his actual proposed policies instead.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1159 on: September 09, 2008, 04:37:17 pm »
I did read the whole article. It essentially rests on the premise that almost everybody was biased against Gore. I don't find it persuasive that PBS, The Washington Post, USA Today, etc. were all part of some grand right-wing conspiracy due to 9/11.

Especially considering that the date on the pbs show was April of 2001, and the 9/11 didnt happen...until well...9.

But FACT!'s generally don't get in the way of a few well meaning conspiracy theorists.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1160 on: September 09, 2008, 04:38:45 pm »
Not at you.  One of the reasons cited for Bush's (past) popularity is that he's the sort of guy you'd like to have a beer with.  As opposed to Gore or Kerry who would bore the living shit out of you.  I wouldn't use this criteria to pick, for example, a surgeon, so I don't understand why it's apparently a popular way of choosing a President.

Ok.  His question was directed at me so I thought you were looking at me as well.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1161 on: September 09, 2008, 04:38:57 pm »
But there's no need to assume that just because he's smart he doesn't have good judgement.

Almost as silly as assuming that if you are not a college graduate you are stupid and uninformed.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1162 on: September 09, 2008, 04:39:10 pm »
Not at all. But I think being smart isn't a prima facie qualification to be president. Richard Nixon was highly intelligent. Look where that got him.

Then why all the shots at Harvard?  Why this constant hammering that "I know smart people and I wouldn't trust them with my kids."  (Not all necessarily you, Arky.)  I know smart people I wouldn't trust with my kid.  I know a lot of really stupid people, and I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with my kid.  I don't care if you've got the greatest judgement alive, you need a certain level of intelligence to do this job well.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1163 on: September 09, 2008, 04:41:09 pm »
It actually appears that you don't. A quick, cursory run through his campaign's proposed policies - and independent comparisons with McCain's - indicates that you're blatantly misrepresenting him. So maybe people aren't willfully ignoring the feasibility of these policies, maybe they're just considering his actual proposed policies instead.

See also: O'Reilly's bald-faced lies within his interview with Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1164 on: September 09, 2008, 04:41:24 pm »
If you're referring to my assertions you need to read them again.  Smart is not smartest man in the room.  Too often, in my experience, the smartest man in the room is the last person you want doing something he wasn't trained to do.  Too we discussed the difference between being educated and having good judgement.

How many times has the smartest man in the room you've been in been Obama?  Why lump him in with the "too often"?
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1165 on: September 09, 2008, 04:42:07 pm »
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1166 on: September 09, 2008, 04:42:44 pm »
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1167 on: September 09, 2008, 04:43:56 pm »
did you mean to post a link about the recount there?

Doesn't really matter. Even I wouldn't click a link to O'reilly....
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1168 on: September 09, 2008, 04:44:55 pm »
I did read the whole article. It essentially rests on the premise that almost everybody was biased against Gore. I don't find it persuasive that PBS, The Washington Post, USA Today, etc. were all part of some grand right-wing conspiracy due to 9/11.

No one said "Boo" to Bush for years after 9/11.  It took the horrors of Katrina before the press started to unshrink their nads and criticise the administration.  Neither I nor the article called it a conspiracy theory; we called it a reaction to 9/11.  If people react the same way for the same reasons, it doesn't mean that they're in cahoots.  In this case, the loony, left-wing, Bush-hating media decided it was better for the country to give him a pass on this and many other things.  I agree with them on that choice, as unity was more important at that time than stirring up the moot point of the election.

BUT, that does not mean that history should stay forever edited.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1169 on: September 09, 2008, 04:44:58 pm »
But would you click here?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1170 on: September 09, 2008, 04:45:50 pm »
Almost as silly as assuming that if you are not a college graduate you are stupid and uninformed.


Or as ridiculous as making a judgement that a person is qualified for president after knowing about them for two days.   Processing information is a learned skill. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1171 on: September 09, 2008, 04:46:22 pm »
How many times has the smartest man in the room you've been in been Obama?  Why lump him in with the "too often"?

I didn't.  I know a few smartest men in the room who can manage the hell out of an organization.  But they're in the minority.  Also, if you read, I was being sarcastic about the making a case for McCain.  Too, was Obama the smartest man in the room at Harvard?  I don't recall saying he was.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1172 on: September 09, 2008, 04:46:37 pm »
Not at all. But I think being smart isn't a prima facie qualification to be president. Richard Nixon was highly intelligent. Look where that got him.

Yes.  Because of Richard Nixon, all smart people are now suspect.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1173 on: September 09, 2008, 04:48:04 pm »
Or as ridiculous as making a judgement that a person is qualified for president after knowing about them for two days.   Processing information is a learned skill. 

That one learns from google, which still apparently doesnt know that Palin isn't being elected President.  But we won't let that FACT! get in the way.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1174 on: September 09, 2008, 04:49:11 pm »
Then why all the shots at Harvard?  Why this constant hammering that "I know smart people and I wouldn't trust them with my kids."  (Not all necessarily you, Arky.)  I know smart people I wouldn't trust with my kid.  I know a lot of really stupid people, and I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with my kid.  I don't care if you've got the greatest judgement alive, you need a certain level of intelligence to do this job well.

Did you notice that the last post about Harvard was a quote from somebody else? The quote would apply equally if you inserted any elite school. Harvard happens to be a good example of an elite school.

And I never said a certain level of intelligence is required to do the job well. I said that intelligence alone is not a sufficient qualification.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1175 on: September 09, 2008, 04:50:15 pm »
Some people prefer a President with whom they'd like to share a beer, instead of a President who's smart.

I tend to vote for the candidate whom I feel is more trustworthy. Yes, I've been disappointed many, many times. I also believe that whomever the President selects for his staff is also very, very important, and that gets back to the trust issue, and judgment. I'm not aware of either candidate announcing his choices for key staff positions before the election. Why not?

Had I known about Rumsfeld... who made my blood boil from day one.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1176 on: September 09, 2008, 04:50:40 pm »
That one learns from google, which still apparently doesnt know that Palin isn't being elected President.  But we won't let that FACT! get in the way.

If McCain wins, Palin is a heartbeat away from being President (and about 15 years away from being a great grandmother).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1177 on: September 09, 2008, 04:50:55 pm »
Yes.  Because of Richard Nixon, all smart people are now suspect.

Did you miss something in translation from American English?

The point isn't that all smart people are suspect. The point is that not all smart people have sound judgment. Do I need to spell it out with a ven diagram for you to get it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1178 on: September 09, 2008, 04:51:17 pm »
If McCain wins, Palin is a heartbeat away from being President (and about 15 years away from being a great grandmother).

Sweet!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1179 on: September 09, 2008, 04:52:41 pm »
Sweet!

I can't wait to see the bidding war on ebay for Air Force One.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1180 on: September 09, 2008, 04:53:37 pm »
Had I known about Rumsfeld... who made my blood boil from day one.

And whom nearly everyone in the nation was telling him not to choose.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1181 on: September 09, 2008, 04:53:43 pm »
Sweet!

Limey has never made a mistake in his life...ever.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1182 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:02 pm »
I can't wait to see the bidding war on ebay for Air Force One.

I'll chip in some cash if it means I don't have to fly United.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1183 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:16 pm »
If McCain wins, Palin is a heartbeat away from being President (and about 15 years away from being a great grandmother).

If, and maybe's are not the same thing as voting for the person at the top of the ticket.  Once again, if all Obama can do is claim to be is barely better than the VP nominee, then guess what?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/09/presidential.polls/index.html

will continue.

There was much harping about how big of a boost Palin was to the Democratic funding on the day of her speech.  Yet Obama is already worried about funds for the rest of the campaign.  This continued insistence that Palin is the presidiential candidate will sink his campaign.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1184 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:22 pm »
That one learns from google, which still apparently doesnt know that Palin isn't being elected President.  But we won't let that FACT! get in the way.

The people elect the president, most of the time.  The candidate for president picks who they think would be qualified to be president.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1185 on: September 09, 2008, 04:55:02 pm »
Or as ridiculous as making a judgement that a person is qualified for president after knowing about them for two days.   Processing information is a learned skill. 

Is it ridiculous to make a judgement that person is unqualified after knowing about them for two days?

She is spectacularly unqualified.  Alaska has the population of Fort Worth.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1186 on: September 09, 2008, 04:55:42 pm »
The people elect the president, most of the time.  The candidate for president picks who they think would be qualified to be president.

Who has no responsibilites, and as a rule, never actually ends up being president.

But let's worry about them, and not the actual presidential candidate.  
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1187 on: September 09, 2008, 04:55:45 pm »
This continued insistence that Palin is the presidiential candidate will sink his campaign.

I would agree with this.  The Obama campaign took its eyes way, way off the ball for a while.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1188 on: September 09, 2008, 04:55:50 pm »
Is it ridiculous to make a judgement that person is unqualified after knowing about them for two days?


Yes it is.  Which is why I keep up with the new information.  None of it promising.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1189 on: September 09, 2008, 04:56:41 pm »
Who has no responsibilites, and as a rule, never actually ends up being president.

But let's worry about them, and not the actual presidential candidate.  

No responsibilities?  Cheney, Gore, Bush, Johnson?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1190 on: September 09, 2008, 04:56:45 pm »
It actually appears that you don't. A quick, cursory run through his campaign's proposed policies - and independent comparisons with McCain's - indicates that you're blatantly misrepresenting him. So maybe people aren't willfully ignoring the feasibility of these policies, maybe they're just considering his actual proposed policies instead.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/28/225345/447

"But I will also renew the tough, direct diplomacy that can prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and curb Russian aggression."

"Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I've laid out how I'll pay for every dime -- by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don't help America grow. But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less -- because we cannot meet 21st century challenges with a 20th century bureaucracy."

"And for the sake of our economy, our security, and the future of our planet, I will set a clear goal as president: in 10 years, we will finally end our dependence on oil from the Middle East."


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1191 on: September 09, 2008, 04:58:13 pm »
Is it ridiculous to make a judgement that person is unqualified after knowing about them for two days?


No, it's not, as long as you have good information.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1192 on: September 09, 2008, 04:58:23 pm »
No responsibilities?  Cheney, Gore, Bush, Johnson?

They have what the President chooses to give them.  If the President chooses to give them nothing then they have nothing.

They only implement policy that they are told to implement, they do not formulate.

There is no inherent responsibilities defined into the role except to sit around and wait for the President to die.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1193 on: September 09, 2008, 04:58:53 pm »
Who has no responsibilites, and as a rule, never actually ends up being president.

But let's worry about them, and not the actual presidential candidate.  

9 of 46 VP's have ascended upon death/resignation of the President.  Would you say that 20% is, "as a rule", "never"?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1194 on: September 09, 2008, 04:59:49 pm »
9 of 46 VP's have ascended upon death/resignation of the President.  Would you say that 20% is, "as a rule", "never"?

Over the course of 200 years it has happened 9 times, at an 80% not happening rate.  You could come to the conclusion that its rather not likely.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1195 on: September 09, 2008, 05:00:25 pm »
Over the course of 200 years it has happened 9 times, at an 80% not happening rate.  You could come to the conclusion that its rather not likely.

20% is "rather not likely"?  Seriously??
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1196 on: September 09, 2008, 05:00:36 pm »
This continued insistence that Palin is the presidiential candidate will sink his campaign.

I agree.  However, I believe that the most focus on Palin is in this thread.  In this weekend's teevee appearances by Obama and Biden, they spent virtually the whole time (whenever possible to steer the conversation in the direction they wanted to go) going after McCain.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1197 on: September 09, 2008, 05:02:14 pm »
More trouble for Palin.  Now the union for the Trooper of TrooperGate has made a complaint that Palin illegally got hold of the trooper's workers comp records.  The woodwork is creaking in Alaska.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1198 on: September 09, 2008, 05:04:03 pm »
I agree.  However, I believe that the most focus on Palin is in this thread.

On the politics page of CNN there are 4 articles that highlight Palin specifically out of 12, so 1/3.  Plus 2 more that mention McCain and Palin both in the headline.  And the two highlighted commentary articles are Palin-centric.

So no, I don't think it's just here.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1199 on: September 09, 2008, 05:05:07 pm »
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/28/225345/447

"And for the sake of our economy, our security, and the future of our planet, I will set a clear goal as president: in 10 years, we will finally end our dependence on oil from the Middle East."



Drill baby drill!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1200 on: September 09, 2008, 05:05:37 pm »
No responsibilities?  Cheney, Gore, Bush, Johnson?

...and Ford (who wasn't necessarily bad but did become President without the hassles of a general election).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1201 on: September 09, 2008, 05:08:11 pm »
They have what the President chooses to give them.  If the President chooses to give them nothing then they have nothing.

They only implement policy that they are told to implement, they do not formulate.

There is no inherent responsibilities defined into the role except to sit around and wait for the President to die.

Given the rise in the polls of the Republican ticket it seems a good number of people in the US don't think they'll be voting for a person who will do nothing.  Or maybe they do and they're jus votin for sumun who has a knocked up daughter, jus lak dem.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1202 on: September 09, 2008, 05:09:04 pm »
...and Ford (who wasn't necessarily bad but did become President without the hassles of a general election).

Every vp since Johnson has played a significant role in governing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1203 on: September 09, 2008, 05:10:59 pm »
61 pages.  Congrats on your $45 JackAstro.  Don't spend it all in one place on hookers that look like Sarah Palin.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1204 on: September 09, 2008, 05:11:06 pm »
Every vp since Johnson has played a significant role in governing.

At the direction of the President.

Who is being elected.

Not the VP.

But keep insisting that Palin is up for election.  

What was that about repeating the same actions expecting a different outcome?  Can we keep saying the same things and expecting the truth to change?
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1205 on: September 09, 2008, 05:11:43 pm »
On the politics page of CNN there are 4 articles that highlight Palin specifically out of 12, so 1/3.  Plus 2 more that mention McCain and Palin both in the headline.  And the two highlighted commentary articles are Palin-centric.

So no, I don't think it's just here.

Okey doke.  But Obama and Biden have realised that they got distracted - as I suspect that they were intened to do - and have got back on message.  I believe the press will soon focus on Palin's lack of availability, which will tick off those egomaniacs in the media no end.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1206 on: September 09, 2008, 05:13:03 pm »
Can we keep saying the same things and expecting the truth to change?

It works at Fox News.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1207 on: September 09, 2008, 05:14:15 pm »
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/28/225345/447

"But I will also renew the tough, direct diplomacy that can prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and curb Russian aggression."

"Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I've laid out how I'll pay for every dime -- by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don't help America grow. But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less -- because we cannot meet 21st century challenges with a 20th century bureaucracy."

"And for the sake of our economy, our security, and the future of our planet, I will set a clear goal as president: in 10 years, we will finally end our dependence on oil from the Middle East."



You stated that that he had a policy of tax cuts. His tax policy is actually to return approximately $700 billion to the budget. You stated his goal of energy independence within 10 years. His policy includes a goal of reducing oil consumption by more than the combined imports of the Middle East and Venezuela. Those imports make up only 1/3 of our total crude oil imports, and do not even roughly equate to "energy independence". You dismissed diplomacy with Iran because the Europeans have tried it, which has no bearing on whether it's a feasible policy for the US. You characterize his desire to end the war in Iraq as immediately pulling out, when he has stated that he would begin drawing down immediately, but complete the drawdown over a reasonable and informed time period.

So yes, you're misrepresenting his proposed policies. I'm all for critical analysis, but get the starting point correct, or there's no substance to what you write.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1208 on: September 09, 2008, 05:15:33 pm »
Taras, I want my $45, and (cough) I believe there's still the matter of the drink ticket?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1209 on: September 09, 2008, 05:17:49 pm »
At the direction of the President.

Who is being elected.

Not the VP.

But keep insisting that Palin is up for election.  

What was that about repeating the same actions expecting a different outcome?  Can we keep saying the same things and expecting the truth to change?

Fine, that is technically true but not practically and seems a real waste and an odd argument that she is qualified because she'll be doing nothing,  but the people who are supporting the rise in the polls, the people who woke up when McCain picked Palin, do they think Palin is going to do nothing?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1210 on: September 09, 2008, 05:18:17 pm »
Taras, I want my $45, and (cough) I believe there's still the matter of the drink ticket?

Which is pretty impressive given the thread has had two Spack sightings.  And everyone still has a spleen, so far.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1211 on: September 09, 2008, 05:19:06 pm »
Which is pretty impressive given the thread has had two Spack sightings.  And everyone still has a spleen, so far.

"I woke up in my bathtub, filled with ice, to find a note signed 'Spack' that said 'Call 911'..."
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1212 on: September 09, 2008, 05:19:26 pm »
Which is pretty impressive given the thread has had two Spack sightings.  And everyone still has a spleen, so far.

Shhh. I think he fell asleep by the Victrola. Don't wake him.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1213 on: September 09, 2008, 05:21:11 pm »
Taras, I want my $45, and (cough) I believe there's still the matter of the drink ticket?

Taras don't work for no Caesar's.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1214 on: September 09, 2008, 05:21:23 pm »
Okey doke.  But Obama and Biden have realised that they got distracted - as I suspect that they were intened to do - and have got back on message.  I believe the press will soon focus on Palin's lack of availability, which will tick off those egomaniacs in the media no end.

Especially since she's bugging out to Alaska soon with a bunch of hangers on from the Bush administration as tutors.  When next we see her, everything she says about anything not directly related to Alaska will be a recitation of her tutorials.  She has admitted to having no opinion about a range of issues, including, but not limited to Iraq, education policy,  financial policy (go ahead ask her how Fannie Mae works) foreign policy in general, the list goes on.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1215 on: September 09, 2008, 05:21:54 pm »
Given the rise in the polls of the Republican ticket it seems a good number of people in the US don't think they'll be voting for a person who will do nothing.  Or maybe they do and they're jus votin for sumun who has a knocked up daughter, jus lak dem.

Please, pravata.  This is beneath you.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1216 on: September 09, 2008, 05:23:07 pm »
It works at Fox News.

But not at MSNBC, NBC, CNN, NY Times, etc. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1217 on: September 09, 2008, 05:25:08 pm »
But not at MSNBC, NBC, CNN, NY Times, etc. 

Can you point me to instances where the White House has directly provided speaking points to one of those outlets?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1218 on: September 09, 2008, 05:26:32 pm »
Please, pravata.  This is beneath you.

I don't think it is.  I am floored by this line of thought, we're voting for her because we can sympathize with her?  This is the U fucking Nited States of America and we're picking our leaders based on this crap?  It is embarrassing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1219 on: September 09, 2008, 05:26:52 pm »
Taras don't work for no Caesar's.

Woah, woah, woah. You were at the book, and you didn't place my bet for me? What the fuck? Where's my drink ticket, man??
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1220 on: September 09, 2008, 05:26:52 pm »
Can you point me to instances where the White House has directly provided speaking points to one of those outlets?


Sorry, MM, but the guys in your party have a long and proud history of furnishing talking points to the press.  It did not start, and it hasn't ended with the bogey men at Fox.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1221 on: September 09, 2008, 05:27:35 pm »
Fine, that is technically true but not practically and seems a real waste and an odd argument that she is qualified because she'll be doing nothing,  but the people who are supporting the rise in the polls, the people who woke up when McCain picked Palin, do they think Palin is going to do nothing?

I have no idea what the rest of them are thinking, I, unlike some around here cannot speak for millions of other people as to why they are doing what they are doing.

What the others have done is irrelevant to the point that those duties are undefined except by whatever McCain decides them to be.  So he can tell her to do whatever it is that he feels that she is best fit for, and implement whatever policy that he feels she will handle the best, easiest, learn from the most.

To say that there is some grand office of the VP that contains a massive amount of responsibility is simply not true.  It is as expansive, or as small as the President decides it to be.

And therefore, the issues of the hour, should be whether or not you think McCain should be president instead of Obama.  If Obama keeps harping on Palin, it will look, and it will be pointed out by many, many people, that he is avoiding McCain, and focusing on Palin because he doesn't believe he can match McCain.  And if they want to win, they better get rid of that perception fast, because right now, it is there, and it is growing.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1222 on: September 09, 2008, 05:31:03 pm »
I have no idea what the rest of them are thinking, I, unlike some around here cannot speak for millions of other people as to why they are doing what they are doing.

What the others have done is irrelevant to the point that those duties are undefined except by whatever McCain decides them to be.  So he can tell her to do whatever it is that he feels that she is best fit for, and implement whatever policy that he feels she will handle the best, easiest, learn from the most.

To say that there is some grand office of the VP that contains a massive amount of responsibility is simply not true.  It is as expansive, or as small as the President decides it to be.

And therefore, the issues of the hour, should be whether or not you think McCain should be president instead of Obama.  If Obama keeps harping on Palin, it will look, and it will be pointed out by many, many people, that he is avoiding McCain, and focusing on Palin because he doesn't believe he can match McCain.  And if they want to win, they better get rid of that perception fast, because right now, it is there, and it is growing.

The issue of this thread is Palin WTF.  The only indication I have of what people are thinking is what they say and what they do.   

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1223 on: September 09, 2008, 05:32:58 pm »
I don't think it is.  I am floored by this line of thought, we're voting for her because we can sympathize with her?  This is the U fucking Nited States of America and we're picking our leaders based on this crap?  It is embarrassing.

I think you're painting with a broad stroke, making some assumptions regarding the motivations of all of those bumpkins out there who you may not think have the good sense and breeding to understand who they should vote for.  Yes, people who push buttons for both candidates will do so for some very silly reasons.  But, probably a lot fewer than you're giving credit for.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1224 on: September 09, 2008, 05:33:52 pm »
If Obama keeps harping on Palin, it will look, and it will be pointed out by many, many people, that he is avoiding McCain, and focusing on Palin because he doesn't believe he can match McCain.  And if they want to win, they better get rid of that perception fast, because right now, it is there, and it is growing.

This is true, but it is not Obama that is harping on Palin and avoiding McCain. As Limey mentioned, Obama is back on point there, but the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy Hive Brain Media Blogosphere apparently hasn't gotten the memo about not talking all Palin, all the time.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1225 on: September 09, 2008, 05:36:33 pm »
Woah, woah, woah. You were at the book, and you didn't place my bet for me? What the fuck? Where's my drink ticket, man??

You would only squander it on some kind of free trade coffee or organic mead.  Or, maybe an anarchist prostitute.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1226 on: September 09, 2008, 05:38:43 pm »
IMO, McCain is the one avoiding Obama and the issues. Palin has been the perfect ink cloud to boost him through the convention without addressing anything of substance and he's played it through well.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1227 on: September 09, 2008, 05:44:06 pm »
No one said "Boo" to Bush for years after 9/11.  It took the horrors of Katrina before the press started to unshrink their nads and criticise the administration.  Neither I nor the article called it a conspiracy theory; we called it a reaction to 9/11.  If people react the same way for the same reasons, it doesn't mean that they're in cahoots.  In this case, the loony, left-wing, Bush-hating media decided it was better for the country to give him a pass on this and many other things.  I agree with them on that choice, as unity was more important at that time than stirring up the moot point of the election.

BUT, that does not mean that history should stay forever edited.

These are conspiracy theories:

"Yet, possibly for reasons of 'patriotism' in this time of crisis, the news organizations that financed the Florida ballot study structured their stories on the ballot review to indicate that Bush was the legitimate winner, with headlines such as 'Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush.'"

"In other words, the elite media’s judgment is in: 'Bush won, get over it.' Only 'Gore partisans' – as both the Washington Post and the New York Times called critics of the official Florida election tallies – would insist on looking at the fine print.

They allege a conspiracy among the funders of the study to underplay the results: The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, The Associated Press, The Tribune Publishing Company, The Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Tribune, The Orlando Sentinel, Cox News Service, The Palm Beach Post, The St. Petersburg Times.

And for all Consortium New's handwringing about the headlines not matching the results of the study, The New York Times conceded, "Under some methods, Mr. Gore would have emerged the winner; in others, Mr. Bush" and "the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots."

But it also observed that "a close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court" and "even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff - filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties - Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations."

It continued, "In a finding rich with irony, the results show that even if Mr. Gore had succeeded in his effort to force recounts of undervotes in the four Democratic counties, Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Volusia, he still would have lost, although by 225 votes rather than 537. An approach Mr. Gore and his lawyers rejected as impractical - a statewide recount - could have produced enough votes to tilt the election his way, no matter what standard was chosen to judge voter intent."

The article goes on to note irregularities all over the place - ballot design, absentee ballots, overvotes, etc. What it does not find is that the recount that the Supreme Court halted was going to reveal Gore as the winner or that the strategies that Gore's lawyers were pursuing would have resulted in a Gore victory. The notion that Gore was robbed is a falsehood, and the suggestion that the media covered anything up is a conspiracy theory.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 05:48:09 pm by Arky Vaughan »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1228 on: September 09, 2008, 05:53:40 pm »
I think you're painting with a broad stroke, making some assumptions regarding the motivations of all of those bumpkins out there who you may not think have the good sense and breeding to understand who they should vote for.  Yes, people who push buttons for both candidates will do so for some very silly reasons.  But, probably a lot fewer than you're giving credit for.

It's a democracy, not a noocracy. People can vote for whatever reasons they want, or for no reasons at all. The alternatives are to take away their right to vote, or to force them to educate themselves. I doubt too many people here are in favor of these two options.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1229 on: September 09, 2008, 06:20:12 pm »
I think you're painting with a broad stroke, making some assumptions regarding the motivations of all of those bumpkins out there who you may not think have the good sense and breeding to understand who they should vote for.  Yes, people who push buttons for both candidates will do so for some very silly reasons.  But, probably a lot fewer than you're giving credit for.  

I think the Palin bump (I'm talking about the McCain-Palin poll numbers, not Bristol) came from her giving a rip-snorter of a speech at a convention that, like the DNC one before it, was watched by almost 40 million people.  Much of this thread has been devoted to debating whether her best lines were true, half true or not true, and how this debate pans out nationally will determine whether the bump becomes a full blown surge.

What is clear, however, is that the public is watching.  How they process what they see is going to be all up to them individually.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:23:05 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1230 on: September 09, 2008, 06:22:28 pm »
It's a democracy, not a noocracy. People can vote for whatever reasons they want, or for no reasons at all. The alternatives are to take away their right to vote, or to force them to educate themselves. I doubt too many people here are in favor of these two options.

I'm in favour of option 2, but then I'm a communist.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1231 on: September 09, 2008, 06:41:23 pm »
I'm in favour of option 2, but then I'm a communist.

I thought you were for a brewocracy or some other adult-beverage-related form of government.

If only they could settle this by a contest of home-brewed beers.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1232 on: September 09, 2008, 06:42:48 pm »
I think the Palin bump (I'm talking about the McCain-Palin poll numbers, not Bristol) came from her giving a rip-snorter of a speech at a convention that, like the DNC one before it, was watched by almost 40 million people.  Much of this thread has been devoted to debating whether her best lines were true, half true or not true, and how this debate pans out nationally will determine whether the bump becomes a full blown surge.

What is clear, however, is that the public is watching.  How they process what they see is going to be all up to them individually.

Agreed. I suspect the polls are going to tighten up again very quickly over the next few days.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1233 on: September 09, 2008, 07:37:46 pm »
Agreed. I suspect the polls are going to tighten up again very quickly over the next few days.

Yep.  And Fuck the Cubs.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1234 on: September 09, 2008, 07:39:47 pm »
Yep.  And Fuck the Cubs.

This thread finally gets interesting. Fuck the Cubs.  A campaign slogan we can all agree with.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1235 on: September 09, 2008, 07:43:22 pm »
This thread finally gets interesting. Fuck the Cubs.  A campaign slogan we can all agree with.

That nails it.  I will vote for whichever candidate officially says "Fuck the Cubs"
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1236 on: September 09, 2008, 07:56:46 pm »
That nails it.  I will vote for whichever candidate officially says "Fuck the Cubs"

Obama earns that one, but at the same time, McCain refused to support a bill that would implicitly prohibit the CIA from forcing prisoners to watch cubsuckdom.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1237 on: September 09, 2008, 07:56:58 pm »
You would only squander it on some kind of free trade coffee or organic mead.  Or, maybe an anarchist prostitute.

You say it like caffeine, alcohol, and prostitutes without rules or boundaries are bad things.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1238 on: September 09, 2008, 09:03:33 pm »

Sorry, MM, but the guys in your party have a long and proud history of furnishing talking points to the press.  It did not start, and it hasn't ended with the bogey men at Fox.

Sorry, Taras, but you've mistaken me for a Democrat.  I'm an Obamican - his was the first vote for a Democrat on a national or state level I've cast.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1239 on: September 09, 2008, 09:22:18 pm »
IMO, McCain is the one avoiding Obama and the issues. Palin has been the perfect ink cloud to boost him through the convention without addressing anything of substance and he's played it through well.

Why, just b/c his own campaign manager has said that this election will be about character, not issues?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1240 on: September 09, 2008, 09:31:20 pm »
That nails it.  I will vote for whichever candidate officially says "Fuck the Cubs"

Aye.

Need I remind everyone that Obama is from Chicago, although more likely a White Sox than a Cubs fan.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1241 on: September 09, 2008, 09:33:21 pm »
Oh, MOTHERFUCK Keith Olbermann.

"Tomorrow night - on the eve of 9/11 - a dramatic Special Comment: Are some still politicizing America's greatest national tragedy?"

No, cocksucker, they're just exploiting it for RATINGS.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1242 on: September 09, 2008, 09:38:52 pm »
Oh, MOTHERFUCK Keith Olbermann.

"Tomorrow night - on the eve of 9/11 - a dramatic Special Comment: Are some still politicizing America's greatest national tragedy?"

No, cocksucker, they're just exploiting it for RATINGS.

I used to watch FOX, CNN, MSNBC etc... and all it did was get me hacked off at how poorly they covered all the details of news events.  Then I stopped watching all the channels parading as "news outlets".  Sure enough, I've been a much happier person since. 

I still read alot (reuters, AP, and the occassional national news on network TV, and even some PBS) but those jokes for TV news are no longer on my "watch" list.  Life's too short.

eta: had to correct myself, they don't cover all the info, only what gets them ratings
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1243 on: September 09, 2008, 10:02:48 pm »
This thread ain't worth a bucket of warm shit.  Or, spit.

Still dead in Uvalde,
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1244 on: September 09, 2008, 11:26:07 pm »
Or maybe they do and they're jus votin for sumun who has a knocked up daughter, jus lak dem.

So it's now acceptable to bust out the ol' Steppin Fetchit routine to characterize a sizable Dem voting block?  Cool.  Or not.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1245 on: September 09, 2008, 11:39:44 pm »
Oh, MOTHERFUCK Keith Olbermann.

"Tomorrow night - on the eve of 9/11 - a dramatic Special Comment: Are some still politicizing America's greatest national tragedy?"

No, cocksucker, they're just exploiting it for RATINGS.

Olbermann has jumped the shark.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1246 on: September 10, 2008, 12:47:02 am »
Aye.

Need I remind everyone that Obama is from Chicago, although more likely a White Sox than a Cubs fan.

I'm well aware that he is from Chicago and I knew what he has said previously about the Cubs.  But it still stands: If either Obama or McCain will come out and say (verbatim) "Fuck the Cubs" they have my vote.  That is all.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1247 on: September 10, 2008, 12:56:43 am »
Olbermann has jumped the shark.

olbermann's palin comparison to o'reilly
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1248 on: September 10, 2008, 10:06:31 am »
Why is it that the media actually pays attention to crap like the "Palin Truth Squad"'s manufactured outrage over "lipstick on a pig"?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1249 on: September 10, 2008, 10:08:22 am »
Why is it that the media actually pays attention to crap like the "Palin Truth Squad"'s manufactured outrage over "lipstick on a pig"?

Ignoring the deliberate misunderstanding of Obama's use of a colloquialism, she's already described herself as a pit bull with lipstick so where's the pork beef?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1250 on: September 10, 2008, 10:09:08 am »
Ignoring the deliberate misunderstanding of Obama's use of a colloquialism, she's already described herself as a pit bull with lipstick so where's the pork beef?

Also ignoring McCain's multiple uses of the colloquialism to describe Hillary's health care plan.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1251 on: September 10, 2008, 10:12:35 am »
Republican strategist hits the nail on the head:

Quote
John Feehery, a Republican strategist, said the campaign is entering a stage in which skirmishes over the facts are less important than the dominant themes that are forming voters' opinions of the candidates.

"The more the New York Times and The Washington Post go after Sarah Palin, the better off she is, because there's a bigger truth out there and the bigger truths are she's new, she's popular in Alaska and she is an insurgent," Feehery said. "As long as those are out there, these little facts don't really matter."
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1252 on: September 10, 2008, 10:14:23 am »
Why is it that the media actually pays attention to crap like the "Palin Truth Squad"'s manufactured outrage over "lipstick on a pig"?

Ratings?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1253 on: September 10, 2008, 10:14:58 am »
So it's now acceptable to bust out the ol' Steppin Fetchit routine to characterize a sizable Dem voting block?  Cool.  Or not.

That is an attempt to capture the speech of the ignorant hillbillies I grew up around.

MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1254 on: September 10, 2008, 10:15:38 am »
Ratings?

Unfortunately, yes.  The majority of American voters don't want details, they want drama.  They want an election-as-reality-show.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1255 on: September 10, 2008, 10:16:58 am »
Republican strategist hits the nail on the head:


Biden says bring it on,

“I’m not into the small bore stuff. I don’t care whether or not she built a bridge to nowhere. I don’t care if she sold a plane. What I care about is what in God’s name she [is] going to do – along with John McCain – about the thousands of people who don’t have health care.”
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/10/in-chicago-biden-previews-palin-debate.aspx

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1256 on: September 10, 2008, 10:18:37 am »
Unfortunately, yes.  The majority of American voters don't want details, they want drama.  They want an election-as-reality-show.

To borrow on a theme, they're all going to be wallowing in the mud before it's over. I still think the Obama campaign hasn't quite got their eye back on the ball yet, though.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1257 on: September 10, 2008, 10:24:44 am »
To borrow on a theme, they're all going to be wallowing in the mud before it's over.

Which greatly favors McCain.  And is greatly disappointing to me, because I honestly believed that these two would debate issues.  McCain's campaign manager clearly had other plans.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1258 on: September 10, 2008, 10:24:48 am »
Biden says bring it on,

“I’m not into the small bore stuff. I don’t care whether or not she built a bridge to nowhere. I don’t care if she sold a plane. What I care about is what in God’s name she [is] going to do – along with John McCain – about the thousands millions of people who don’t have health care.”
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/10/in-chicago-biden-previews-palin-debate.aspx

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1259 on: September 10, 2008, 10:25:56 am »
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_knocks_press_on_madeup_controversy.html

WFW. If he gets elected, is he going to whine like this about Ahmejinedad or Putin when they do something he doesn't like?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1260 on: September 10, 2008, 10:27:12 am »
Which greatly favors McCain.  And is greatly disappointing to me, because I honestly believed that these two would debate issues.  McCain's campaign manager clearly had other plans.

Obama doesn't seem so new and shiny when he gets pulled into this kind of thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1261 on: September 10, 2008, 10:27:29 am »
You know, Arky, it would be easier to just say that there is nothing the man could say or do that would make you happy.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1262 on: September 10, 2008, 10:30:21 am »
Which greatly favors McCain.  And is greatly disappointing to me, because I honestly believed that these two would debate issues.  McCain's campaign manager clearly had other plans.

Which would be Rove.  Thankfully the Obama campaign has not resorted to the tactics he used in 2000 to eliminate McCain from the Republican nomination.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1263 on: September 10, 2008, 10:33:14 am »
Obama doesn't seem so new and shiny when he gets pulled into this kind of thing.

Right.  If the issues aren't on your side, if the facts aren't on your side... change the subject.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1264 on: September 10, 2008, 10:40:58 am »
Which greatly favors McCain.  And is greatly disappointing to me, because I honestly believed that these two would debate issues.  McCain's campaign manager clearly had other plans.

You mean the lobbyist (for Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, amongst others) Rick Davis?  The lobbyist who McCain denegrates every chance he gets?  That campaign manager?

I find it incredible that McCain is allowed to claim that he's going to keep lobbyists out of Washington, when he won't even keep them out of his campaign team.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1265 on: September 10, 2008, 10:42:38 am »
Right.  If the issues aren't on your side, if the facts aren't on your side... change the subject.

Like the "celebrity" ads.  Then, when you get called on it, just reply "lighten up, it was a joke".

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1266 on: September 10, 2008, 10:50:05 am »
Right.  If the issues aren't on your side, if the facts aren't on your side... change the subject.

That's not my point. I was echoing your sentiment that a messier campaign disfavors Obama. Obama sells a very positive message using very positive rhetoric. In a positive campaign, this gives him a clear advantage. Perhaps you consider it a backhanded compliment if I say that I think he makes people feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1267 on: September 10, 2008, 10:53:38 am »
You mean the lobbyist (for Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, amongst others) Rick Davis?  The lobbyist who McCain denegrates every chance he gets?  That campaign manager?

I find it incredible that McCain is allowed to claim that he's going to keep lobbyists out of Washington, when he won't even keep them out of his campaign team.

What do you expect? McCain favored "reform" that gagged political speech in gross contempt for the First Amendment.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1268 on: September 10, 2008, 10:54:51 am »
You mean the lobbyist (for Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, amongst others) Rick Davis?  The lobbyist who McCain denegrates every chance he gets?  That campaign manager?

I find it incredible that McCain is allowed to claim that he's going to keep lobbyists out of Washington, when he won't even keep them out of his campaign team.

Speaking of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ...

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1269 on: September 10, 2008, 10:56:24 am »
What do you expect? McCain favored "reform" that gagged political speech in gross contempt for the First Amendment.

I hav never understood the argument that $=speech.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1270 on: September 10, 2008, 11:01:53 am »
I hav never understood the argument that $=speech.

It's kind of like nude dancing.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1271 on: September 10, 2008, 11:03:52 am »
Speaking of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ...

Which is the perfect contrast to Rick Davis, who lobbied for those two companies and continues unabashedly to work on McCain's campaign.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1272 on: September 10, 2008, 11:05:55 am »
I hav never understood the argument that $=speech.

Running a political advertisement is speech, isn't it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1273 on: September 10, 2008, 11:07:10 am »
Which is the perfect contrast to Rick Davis, who lobbied for those two companies and continues unabashedly to work on McCain's campaign.

So Obama was for it before he was against it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1274 on: September 10, 2008, 11:08:13 am »
So Obama was for it before he was against it?

While McCain was for it and remains for it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1275 on: September 10, 2008, 11:10:08 am »
Running a political advertisement is speech, isn't it?

The creation of a political advetisement is speech.  The purchasing of airtime is a business transaction.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1276 on: September 10, 2008, 11:12:58 am »
The creation of a political advetisement is speech.  The purchasing of airtime is a business transaction.

So restricting the purchase of the airtime to run the ad would simply be an economic regulation? That kind of cuts the legs out from under the First Amendment, doesn't it?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1277 on: September 10, 2008, 11:15:21 am »
So restricting the purchase of the airtime to run the ad would simply be an economic regulation? That kind of cuts the legs out from under the First Amendment, doesn't it?

I don't see how.  If I lack the funds to buy airtime to announce my movement to outlaw the DH, have my First Amendment rights been violated by my inability to use that particular platform for my views?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1278 on: September 10, 2008, 11:18:05 am »
I don't see how.  If I lack the funds to buy airtime to announce my movement to outlaw the DH, have my First Amendment rights been violated by my inability to use that particular platform for my views?

No, but if you have the funds to express your views (or engage in speech) and the government won't let you announce your movement to outlaw the DH, then your First Amendment rights have been impinged upon.  Same as if you were given the airtime for free.  Just as if you walked out onto the sidewalk outside MMPUS with a cardboard sign expressing the same.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1279 on: September 10, 2008, 11:20:14 am »
I don't see how.  If I lack the funds to buy airtime to announce my movement to outlaw the DH, have my First Amendment rights been violated by my inability to use that particular platform for my views?

No. Your First Amendment rights aren't violated when you can't afford to publicize your speech. They're violated when the government forbids you to publicize your speech. It's not a guarantee of financial wherewithal, it's a restriction on government action.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1280 on: September 10, 2008, 11:22:29 am »
Why is it that the media actually pays attention to crap like the "Palin Truth Squad"'s manufactured outrage over "lipstick on a pig"?

That the McCain camp went after that comment is beyond stupid.  Obama has an actual gaff or even lie, and they ignore it in favor of the old pig joke.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1281 on: September 10, 2008, 11:23:47 am »
That the McCain camp went after that comment is beyond stupid.  Obama has an actual gaff or even lie, and they ignore it in favor of the old pig joke.

I'm all for the McCain campaign letting Obama and Biden go off on this tangent as long as they want to.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1282 on: September 10, 2008, 11:23:47 am »
That the McCain camp went after that comment is beyond stupid.  Obama has an actual gaff or even lie, and they ignore it in favor of the old pig joke.

What was the gaff/lie?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1283 on: September 10, 2008, 11:24:01 am »
Just so.

And as I understand it, McCain-Feingold's only restriction on the content of paid political advertising was the disclosure of who was running the ad.

All other restrictions are on contributions, which are a purely economic transaction.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1284 on: September 10, 2008, 11:25:13 am »
That the McCain camp went after that comment is beyond stupid. 

Why?  It's very effective for them.  It's not the slightest bit honest or honorable, but it's effective.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1285 on: September 10, 2008, 11:26:03 am »
Just so.

And as I understand it, McCain-Feingold's only restriction on the content of paid political advertising was the disclosure of who was running the ad.

All other restrictions are on contributions, which are a purely economic transaction.

Certain ads are outright prohibited during certain periods, such as ads mentioning a candidate by name within a certain period of time before an election.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 11:28:00 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1286 on: September 10, 2008, 11:26:04 am »
I'm all for the McCain campaign letting baiting Obama and Biden to go off on this tangent as long as they want to.

FIFY
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1287 on: September 10, 2008, 11:26:39 am »
Just so.

And as I understand it, McCain-Feingold's only restriction on the content of paid political advertising was the disclosure of who was running the ad.

All other restrictions are on contributions, which are a purely economic transaction.

Fundamentally, it's a limitation on an individual's ability to engage in political speech in particular media.  And it is a "content" based limitation in that it limits political speech, which lies at the heart of the first amendment.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1288 on: September 10, 2008, 11:28:45 am »
Then I could understand a position that the restrictions on ads appearing in a certain timefrime might have First Amendment issues.

But the resitrictions on contributions?  Puh-lease.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1289 on: September 10, 2008, 11:31:09 am »
Fundamentally, it's a limitation on an individual's ability to engage in political speech in particular media.  And it is a "content" based limitation in that it limits political speech, which lies at the heart of the first amendment.

You ever hear the old saying "freedom of the press only applies to those who have a press"?

Or "the laws apply equally to everyone in France.  Whether you're a beggar or a noble, you're not allowed to sleep under a bridge."

The framers of the Constitution did not live in a world with mass communication.  "One message, one dollar" is dangerously close to "one vote, one dollar."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1290 on: September 10, 2008, 11:34:51 am »
What was the gaff/lie?

In a discussion about military service (that oddly sounded a bit uncomfortable to me) Obama in an interview with Stephanwhatever said he signed up for the selective service right after high school.  Gaff or lie is that there was no selective service sign up in 1979.  He had finished his first year at Columbia when that law took effect.  He would have had to do so then.  I don't know if his memory is faulty or what but what he said was wrong.  It's probably a gaff, but I remember signing up at the post office immediately after my 18th birthday in 1985 very clearly so I expect (perhaps wrongly) that other men do.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1291 on: September 10, 2008, 11:37:13 am »
In a discussion about military service (that oddly sounded a bit uncomfortable to me) Obama in an interview with Stephanwhatever said he signed up for the selective service right after high school.  Gaff or lie is that there was no selective service sign up in 1979.  He had finished his first year at Columbia when that law took effect.  He would have had to do so then.  I don't know if his memory is faulty or what but what he said was wrong.  It's probably a gaff, but I remember signing up at the post office immediately after my 18th birthday in 1985 very clearly so I expect (perhaps wrongly) that other men do.

I thought everybody had to sign up for selective service in order to be eligible for federal student loans, among other things.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1292 on: September 10, 2008, 11:51:01 am »
Why?  It's very effective for them.  It's not the slightest bit honest or honorable, but it's effective.

A response from an Obama spokesman accused McCain of not understanding the meaning of the word honor (sic.).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1293 on: September 10, 2008, 11:53:20 am »
A response from an Obama spokesman accused McCain of not understanding the meaning of the word honor (sic.).

Contrary to the whining on both sides, sadly, all's fair in politics.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1294 on: September 10, 2008, 11:55:26 am »
Contrary to the whining on both sides, sadly, all's fair in politics.

Exactly right.  The whining is simply another tactic with which to bash an opponent.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1295 on: September 10, 2008, 11:59:57 am »
Exactly right.  The whining is simply another tactic with which to bash an opponent.

Am I the only one who thinks this election, considering how close it is now, hinges entirely on the Presidental debates, and that all the mudslinging and the Vice Presidential debates will in the end have no effect?  I can't see Obama or McCain having a "Dukakis in the tank" moment to help derail their campaigns.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1296 on: September 10, 2008, 12:07:55 pm »
Am I the only one who thinks this election, considering how close it is now, hinges entirely on the Presidental debates, and that all the mudslinging and the Vice Presidential debates will in the end have no effect?  I can't see Obama or McCain having a "Dukakis in the tank" moment to help derail their campaigns.

I agree.  I think the debates will get massive ratings, and will be the last/best opportunity for the candidates to wrest control of the undecideds from each other.  NBC's Chuck Todd reckons that, with the expectations of an extraordinarily high level of early voting, the election will very likely go the way things stand on October 15, which I think is after two of the three Presidential debates.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1297 on: September 10, 2008, 12:19:22 pm »
I believe the press will soon focus on Palin's lack of availability, which will tick off those egomaniacs in the media no end.

Apparently not. Palin will be interviewed by Charlie Gibson Thursday and Friday.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1298 on: September 10, 2008, 12:47:01 pm »
Biden says bring it on,

“I’m not into the small bore stuff. I don’t care whether or not she built a bridge to nowhere. I don’t care if she sold a plane. What I care about is what in God’s name she [is] going to do – along with John McCain – about the thousands of people who don’t have health care.”
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/10/in-chicago-biden-previews-palin-debate.aspx

I ask this because I figure you have an answer, pravata, and I respect your research: with a democrat majority in congress, what has been passed and what has been rejected as far as health care goes? Open question with no ideas as to what the answer is. I know in the early 90's, the Clintons tried to get some things done. I know that the 00's seemed to bring out some increased/complicated Medicare/medicade expansions. I know there was a lot of argument about SCHIP, etc., in the last few years. There was the increased(?) drug benefit stuff going on for a while.

Who reallly has been doing what?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1299 on: September 10, 2008, 01:25:01 pm »
I ask this because I figure you have an answer, pravata, and I respect your research: with a democrat majority in congress, what has been passed and what has been rejected as far as health care goes? Open question with no ideas as to what the answer is. I know in the early 90's, the Clintons tried to get some things done. I know that the 00's seemed to bring out some increased/complicated Medicare/medicade expansions. I know there was a lot of argument about SCHIP, etc., in the last few years. There was the increased(?) drug benefit stuff going on for a while.

Who reallly has been doing what?

Picking carefully and quickly through a mass of partisan information, I've come up with this list.  Anybody chime in if I've missed a major initiative.
Medicare Prescription Drug Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/mmaupdate/

the Medicare Improvements for Patients and Providers Act of 2008.
http://www.healthassistancepartnership.org/ship-funding/2008.html

Congressional Democrats Will Not Vote on SCHIP Expansion Legislation This Session Amid Veto Threats, Increased Cost Estimates [Sep 08, 2008]
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?hint=3&DR_ID=54325

Patient Safety and Quality Improvement Act of 2005
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/532889


Most of the initiatives are at the state level, Massachusetts and California for instance, here's one article, there's many more,
http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/01/11/califs_healthcare_plan_looks_familiar/

news generally (somewhat partisan)
http://www.kaisernetwork.org/health_cast/hcast_index.cfm?display=detail&hc=1632

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1300 on: September 10, 2008, 01:33:54 pm »
Gaff or lie is that there was no selective service sign up in 1979. 

I graduated HS in '79. A few months before graduation, I had to sign up for selective service when I turned 18. So I know for a fact there was indeed a sign up in 1979.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1301 on: September 10, 2008, 01:43:22 pm »
I graduated HS in '79. A few months before graduation, I had to sign up for selective service when I turned 18. So I know for a fact there was indeed a sign up in 1979.

Are you sure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

"On March 29, 1975, Pres. Gerald Ford signed Proclamation 4360, Terminating Registration Procedures Under Military Selective Service Act, eliminating the registration requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens. Then on July 2, 1980, President Jimmy Carter signed Proclamation 4771, Registration Under the Military Selective Service Act, retroactively re-establishing the Selective Service registration requirement for all 18-26 year old male citizens born on or after January 1, 1960. Only men born between March 29, 1957, and December 31, 1959, were completely exempt from Selective Service registration.[2] The first registrations after Proclamation 4771 took place on Monday, July 21, 1980, for those men born in January, February and March 1960 at U.S. Post Offices. Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays were reserved for men born in the later quarters of the year, and registration for men born in 1961 began the following week."

http://www.sss.gov/backgr.htm

"The registration requirement was suspended in April 1975. It was resumed again in 1980 by President Carter in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1302 on: September 10, 2008, 01:44:03 pm »
I graduated HS in '79. A few months before graduation, I had to sign up for selective service when I turned 18. So I know for a fact there was indeed a sign up in 1979.

I had to sign up in '74. I still remember reading the draft lottery numbers in that year and preceding years, although I think the draft itself was suspended with the class before mine.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1303 on: September 10, 2008, 01:44:24 pm »
I registered in '80 when I turned 18.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1304 on: September 10, 2008, 01:52:41 pm »
What is this Selective Service stuff?  Was I supposed to sign a form?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1305 on: September 10, 2008, 02:04:58 pm »
Are you sure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System

"On March 29, 1975, Pres. Gerald Ford signed Proclamation 4360, Terminating Registration Procedures Under Military Selective Service Act, eliminating the registration requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens. Then on July 2, 1980, President Jimmy Carter signed Proclamation 4771, Registration Under the Military Selective Service Act, retroactively re-establishing the Selective Service registration requirement for all 18-26 year old male citizens born on or after January 1, 1960. Only men born between March 29, 1957, and December 31, 1959, were completely exempt from Selective Service registration.[2] The first registrations after Proclamation 4771 took place on Monday, July 21, 1980, for those men born in January, February and March 1960 at U.S. Post Offices. Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays were reserved for men born in the later quarters of the year, and registration for men born in 1961 began the following week."

http://www.sss.gov/backgr.htm

"The registration requirement was suspended in April 1975. It was resumed again in 1980 by President Carter in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan."

I think the key here is requirement. As mentioned, to obtain grants, etc. (I was on SSI) I had to register. It wasn't required for everyone at the time, but you could still register.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1306 on: September 10, 2008, 02:10:40 pm »
What is this Selective Service stuff?  Was I supposed to sign a form?

Yes, and you were supposed to maintain that registration until you turned 26.  You must hate America.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1307 on: September 10, 2008, 02:16:20 pm »
Yes, and you were supposed to maintain that registration until you turned 26.  You must hate America.

Kidding.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1308 on: September 10, 2008, 02:17:01 pm »
I think the key here is requirement. As mentioned, to obtain grants, etc. (I was on SSI) I had to register. It wasn't required for everyone at the time, but you could still register.

Excellent.

And if anyone questions there's a very easy registration verification including the date your registration was processed.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1309 on: September 10, 2008, 02:18:12 pm »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1310 on: September 10, 2008, 02:26:02 pm »

Ummm...so was I.

Yes, but we have people like loe on this board, so I wouldn't want them to think you were serious.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1311 on: September 10, 2008, 02:30:31 pm »
Yes, and you were supposed to maintain that registration until you turned 26.  You must hate America.

By the way, the DPS will not accept your draft card as proof of your Social Security number when you go to get your driver's license. You are hereby warned.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1312 on: September 10, 2008, 02:39:11 pm »
By the way, the DPS will not accept your draft card as proof of your Social Security number when you go to get your driver's license. You are hereby warned.

to continue with said tangential topic, if you ever happen to lose both drivers license and SS card...

The Social Security Office won't accept a Birth Certificate as proof of ID, but will accept a Drivers License.  To obtain the Drivers you can use a...Birth.....Certificate.

So it's not good enough for the Social Security office, but it is good enough for the DPS office to issue ID, which is then good enough for the.....Social Security Office.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1313 on: September 10, 2008, 02:39:28 pm »
I graduated HS in '79. A few months before graduation, I had to sign up for selective service when I turned 18. So I know for a fact there was indeed a sign up in 1979.

As I'm reading the law no male can sign up before his 18th birthday.  Is that correct?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1314 on: September 10, 2008, 02:40:32 pm »
to continue with said tangential topic, if you ever happen to lose both drivers license and SS card...

The Social Security Office won't accept a Birth Certificate as proof of ID, but will accept a Drivers License.  To obtain the Drivers you can use a...Birth.....Certificate.

So it's not good enough for the Social Security office, but it is good enough for the DPS office to issue ID, which is then good enough for the.....Social Security Office.

Put another way, there's a more stringent requirement for getting a job legally than there is for registering to vote.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1315 on: September 10, 2008, 02:41:19 pm »
to continue with said tangential topic, if you ever happen to lose both drivers license and SS card...

The Social Security Office won't accept a Birth Certificate as proof of ID, but will accept a Drivers License.  To obtain the Drivers you can use a...Birth.....Certificate.

So it's not good enough for the Social Security office, but it is good enough for the DPS office to issue ID, which is then good enough for the.....Social Security Office.

hmmm, I had that happen, I had no problem getting a new drivers license.  I still need to go to the SS Office though.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1316 on: September 10, 2008, 02:41:40 pm »
Put another way, there's a more stringent requirement for getting a job legally than there is for registering to vote.

Well said.  Arguments against voter ID laws are fairly specious to me.
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tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1317 on: September 10, 2008, 02:50:19 pm »
hmmm, I had that happen, I had no problem getting a new drivers license.  I still need to go to the SS Office though.

It shouldn't be a problem once you've gotten the new Driver's License.  I just didnt understand why there's the extra step.

It was just kind of annoying, replacing ID with no forms of ID is kind of a pain in the ass.

Put another way, there's a more stringent requirement for getting a job legally than there is for registering to vote.

Well said.  Arguments against voter ID laws are fairly specious to me.

Kinda, but if you have a fake Birth Certificate and get a False Drivers License, getting the fake Social Security Card doesn't seem like it should be that big of an obstacle.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1318 on: September 10, 2008, 03:25:33 pm »
As I'm reading the law no male can sign up before his 18th birthday.  Is that correct?

I believe so. I signed up the day I turned 18.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1319 on: September 10, 2008, 03:26:44 pm »
to continue with said tangential topic, if you ever happen to lose both drivers license and SS card...

The Social Security Office won't accept a Birth Certificate as proof of ID, but will accept a Drivers License.  To obtain the Drivers you can use a...Birth.....Certificate.

So it's not good enough for the Social Security office, but it is good enough for the DPS office to issue ID, which is then good enough for the.....Social Security Office.

Catch 22 squared, man.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1320 on: September 10, 2008, 03:32:23 pm »
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1321 on: September 10, 2008, 03:33:13 pm »
As I'm reading the law no male can sign up before his 18th birthday.  Is that correct?

Current law says you have a 60 day window, 30 days before to 30 days after your 18th birthday, at least according to the sss.gov website.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1322 on: September 10, 2008, 03:37:32 pm »
Why the hell do you need a social security number to get a driver's license?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1323 on: September 10, 2008, 03:58:21 pm »
Why the hell do you need a social security number to get a driver's license?

I guess it's supposed to prove that you're legal.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1324 on: September 10, 2008, 04:05:56 pm »
Why the hell do you need a social security number to get a driver's license?

You dont need a social security number to get a drivers license.

But the identification that is acceptable for a drivers license, is unacceptable for a social security card. 

but the identification you get with the unacceptable form of identification, is acceptable to get a social security card.

but then, the identification you get with the acceptable form of identification, that was obtained with unacceptable forms of identification, is acceptable to get the drivers license.  which can be obtained with a birth certificate, which is unacceptable.

It seems to be that you have not actually closed the security hole of the unacceptable form of identification, and just cause more headaches to people trying to get these documents replaced.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 04:09:11 pm by tophfar »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1325 on: September 10, 2008, 04:11:43 pm »
I haven't seen my Social Security card in years, I think it was in my wallet next to O.J.'s autograph. I never saw a need to have it replaced. More recently I lost my driver's license and had to use my passport to get it replaced. Does one really need a Social Security card? The number is permanently engraved in my mind.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1326 on: September 10, 2008, 04:12:38 pm »
I haven't seen my Social Security card in years, I think it was in my wallet next to O.J.'s autograph. I never saw a need to have it replaced. More recently I lost my driver's license and had to use my passport to get it replaced. Does one really need a Social Security card? The number is permanently engraved in my mind.

You need it if you don't have a passport.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1327 on: September 10, 2008, 04:15:42 pm »
I haven't seen my Social Security card in years, I think it was in my wallet next to O.J.'s autograph. I never saw a need to have it replaced. More recently I lost my driver's license and had to use my passport to get it replaced. Does one really need a Social Security card? The number is permanently engraved in my mind.

Just kind of depends really, mostly to satisfy the I-9 employment eligibility form.  But i think the passport would also suffice in that case.  Most people probably use a combination of Drivers License/SSC for it though, I would guess.

Which is what makes the bizarre rules for getting them replaced all the more mystifying to me.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1328 on: September 10, 2008, 04:36:58 pm »
I haven't seen my Social Security card in years, I think it was in my wallet next to O.J.'s autograph. I never saw a need to have it replaced. More recently I lost my driver's license and had to use my passport to get it replaced. Does one really need a Social Security card? The number is permanently engraved in my mind.

I think mine was in my wallet when it got stolen in Amsterdam in 1999.  I have never had a use for it since.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1329 on: September 10, 2008, 04:57:09 pm »
What is this Selective Service stuff?  Was I supposed to sign a form?

I sign up for selective work...every damn day.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1330 on: September 10, 2008, 04:59:47 pm »
It seems to be that you have not actually closed the security hole of the unacceptable form of identification, and just cause more headaches to people trying to get these documents replaced.

See Shoes, removal of at airport.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1331 on: September 10, 2008, 05:03:49 pm »
I think mine was in my wallet when it got stolen in Amsterdam in 1999.  I have never had a use for it since.

Or was it when you replaced your vinyl copy of Rastaman Vibration with a CD?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 05:07:36 pm by Sphinx Drummond »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1332 on: September 10, 2008, 05:04:36 pm »
I think mine was in my wallet when it got stolen in Amsterdam in 1999.  I have never had a use for it since.

Stolen?  Or left behind at Club Vandersexxx?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1333 on: September 10, 2008, 08:11:30 pm »
You may ask yourself, "How do I work this?"

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1334 on: September 11, 2008, 04:17:12 pm »
I say smorgasbord!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1335 on: September 11, 2008, 04:22:02 pm »
I haven't seen my Social Security card in years, I think it was in my wallet next to O.J.'s autograph. I never saw a need to have it replaced. More recently I lost my driver's license and had to use my passport to get it replaced. Does one really need a Social Security card? The number is permanently engraved in my mind.

I probably have to show mine 6 times a year to get access to different plants.  Rumor has it they're not supposed to use it as a form of ID, but damn near everybody does.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1336 on: September 12, 2008, 11:12:15 pm »
This one's for you, prav.  We're doomed.

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/editorial/stories/09/0910shenkman_edit.html

Friend of mine teaches government at a local college.  In his experience, young people, people who have the option to vote, are idiots.  He finds that most of his students have no idea about even the rudiments of representative democracy.  People who didnt get past civics in high school are beyond the pale, no matter if you'd trust them to babysit.  For proof you can reference the genii cavorting on the Galveston sea wall, most of whom have the right to cast a ballot.  God. Help. Us.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1337 on: September 13, 2008, 12:40:45 pm »
Friend of mine teaches government at a local college.  In his experience, young people, people who have the option to vote, are idiots.  He finds that most of his students have no idea about even the rudiments of representative democracy.  People who didnt get past civics in high school are beyond the pale, no matter if you'd trust them to babysit.  For proof you can reference the genii cavorting on the Galveston sea wall, most of whom have the right to cast a ballot.  God. Help. Us.

You know that three geniuses decided to spend the night on the 91st Street pier, yeah? Surprisingly the pier didn't hold up too well and these idiots had to be helicoptered off of the remaining stumps this morning. I certainly hope fuckwits like that are billed and forced to pay for the cost of the rescue.

I feel pretty secure in the thought that these three would be unable to locate their local polling station.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1338 on: September 18, 2008, 11:20:36 am »
You know that three geniuses decided to spend the night on the 91st Street pier, yeah? Surprisingly the pier didn't hold up too well and these idiots had to be helicoptered off of the remaining stumps this morning. I certainly hope fuckwits like that are billed and forced to pay for the cost of the rescue.

I feel pretty secure in the thought that these three would be unable to locate their local polling station.

Nothing like having to use resources to pluck these guys out of the water when there are lots of other people who acted responsibly and are in need.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1339 on: September 19, 2008, 09:08:18 am »
Nothing like having to use resources to pluck these guys out of the water when there are lots of other people who acted responsibly and are in need.

So ... you're talking about the banking system bailout, right?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1340 on: September 19, 2008, 09:30:54 am »
So ... you're talking about the banking system bailout, right?

I'm conflicted about the restrictions on short-selling. I can see the need to ease the pressure for a while to let everybody catch their breath, but on the other hand, the shorters were the canaries in the coal mine telling anybody who would listen (which was nobody else, apparently) that these companies were way over-leveraged.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1341 on: September 19, 2008, 10:42:32 am »
I'm curious to see if during W's address earlier if anyone else harkened back ever so slightly to Nixon's wage and price control decisions of the early 70's.  It seems a modest parallel here, though in each cases the government is trying to combat a different situational crisis: inflation 37 years ago and further financial market deterioration today.

It seems that trying to protect the market value of something risks a more serious market response later.  Is this move buying time or is it a more permanent intrusion?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1342 on: September 19, 2008, 11:24:31 am »
I'm curious to see if during W's address earlier if anyone else harkened back ever so slightly to Nixon's wage and price control decisions of the early 70's.  It seems a modest parallel here, though in each cases the government is trying to combat a different situational crisis: inflation 37 years ago and further financial market deterioration today.

It seems that trying to protect the market value of something risks a more serious market response later.  Is this move buying time or is it a more permanent intrusion?


And that worked *so* *well* in the 70's, too.

Who is it that has the tag line "This isn't Russia, is it?" ... Whoever you are, you might want to consider changing that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1343 on: September 19, 2008, 11:43:24 am »
That was my underlying point, if it wasn't obvious.  I'm not necessarily certain that my stated parallel is accurate or not; it's just that the rationale offered today sounded somewhat similar.

"(512) ybbodeus looks just as creepy in HD as in person."   That is a problem, and we are working on it.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1344 on: September 19, 2008, 12:06:46 pm »
What does it take to kill this thread?  It has survived topic changes, political discussion wasn't hostile enough for Spack to spleen it, a significant hurricane that knocked out power all over SE Texas was enough for it to go stale, and even the board being down for a few days. 

Oh, well might as well try to get it back on topic: Palin Baby Name Generator

Inserted my full name and got: if you were born to Sarah Palin, your name would be:
Mustache Warthog Palin

Inserted my screen name and got: Duman, if you were born to Sarah Palin, your name would be:
Buster Taint Palin


I kind of like Mustache Warthog
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1345 on: September 19, 2008, 12:46:53 pm »
Inserted my screen name and got: Duman, if you were born to Sarah Palin, your name would be:
Buster Taint Palin

mihoba = Skunk Grunt Palin
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1346 on: September 19, 2008, 12:52:13 pm »
mihoba = Skunk Grunt Palin


Jacksonian = Moose Roadster Palin
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1347 on: September 19, 2008, 12:57:34 pm »
My Real Name= Bang Walmart Palin.  No freakin' kidding.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1348 on: September 19, 2008, 01:00:36 pm »
What does it take to kill this thread?  It has survived topic changes, political discussion wasn't hostile enough for Spack to spleen it, a significant hurricane that knocked out power all over SE Texas was enough for it to go stale, and even the board being down for a few days. 

Oh, well might as well try to get it back on topic: Palin Baby Name Generator

That version is blocked here at work.  Here's another link if others are in the same boat as me.

Sincerely, Pistol Tank Palin


austro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1349 on: September 19, 2008, 01:03:26 pm »
austro = Shaver Razorback Palin
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
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But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

Craig

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1350 on: September 19, 2008, 01:03:48 pm »
You can now refer to me as Geese Whalebone Palin.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1351 on: September 19, 2008, 04:27:34 pm »
You can now refer to me as Geese Whalebone Palin.

EasTexAstro = Sport Grunt Palin...


I think I win...
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austro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1352 on: September 19, 2008, 04:29:19 pm »
You can now refer to me as Geese Whalebone Palin.

If only that were "Geezer Whalebone"...
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1353 on: September 19, 2008, 08:47:06 pm »
EasTexAstro = Sport Grunt Palin...


I think I win...

BatGirl = Gravel Blood Palin
RealName = Charcoal Sniper Palin
Daughter'sName = Missle Blunt Palin (my favorite so far)
..because chickens are decent people.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1354 on: September 20, 2008, 09:56:18 am »
Fog Piles Palin, here. Sorta rolls off the tongue.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1355 on: September 21, 2008, 06:27:04 pm »
Muzzle Mammoth Palin.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1356 on: September 21, 2008, 06:43:41 pm »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1357 on: September 21, 2008, 07:17:10 pm »
Churn Scorpion Palin
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

ybbodeus

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1358 on: September 22, 2008, 10:55:39 am »
Taupe Armageddon Palin?  Guess the sensor's flux capacitor sensed my infatuation with the movie "Dr. Strangelove."  As for the "taupe" inclusion, I suppose it could have been worse; it could have been puce or mauve.
"(512) ybbodeus looks just as creepy in HD as in person."   That is a problem, and we are working on it.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1359 on: September 22, 2008, 11:18:40 am »
Hose Hotrod Palin.

Hosed by a hot rod.  Those are the facts. 
Purity of Essence

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1360 on: September 22, 2008, 11:58:25 am »
Hose Hotrod

That's a fine porn name.

Regards,
Copper Catfish Palin
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1361 on: September 22, 2008, 04:03:23 pm »
Why am I just completely unamused by any of this?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1362 on: September 22, 2008, 04:05:32 pm »
Why am I just completely unamused by any of this?

Random-anything generators are always amusing.  That's why SnS is so popular.
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1363 on: September 22, 2008, 05:00:06 pm »
Random-anything generators are always amusing.  That's why SnS is so popular.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to old Nolan Tiberius Nacho?
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JackAstro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1364 on: September 22, 2008, 05:35:00 pm »
Why am I just completely unamused by any of this?

Because your heart is black and cold. Go kick some puppies or something.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1365 on: September 22, 2008, 08:43:53 pm »
Because your heart is black and cold. Go kick some puppies or something.

chuck is a blood relative to Bob Stoops?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1366 on: September 22, 2008, 10:42:12 pm »
BudGirl=Rankle Hiway Palin
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1367 on: September 22, 2008, 11:10:29 pm »
Speaking of which, whatever happened to old Nolan Tiberius Nacho?

He changed his name to Loin Falcon Palin.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1368 on: September 23, 2008, 08:22:08 am »
Finally had to join in the fun...
Slow Poke Rodriguez => Ripper Shook Palin

actual name => Rust Mustang Palin
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1369 on: September 23, 2008, 03:54:35 pm »
Why not.

Real name: Commando Coalfire Palin
Ebby Calvin: Charcoal Sniper Palin
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chuck

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1370 on: September 23, 2008, 05:13:45 pm »
chuck is a blood relative to Bob Stoops?

Discovery of this would elevate simmering malaise into dangerous self-loathing.

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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1371 on: September 23, 2008, 08:33:19 pm »
Why am I just completely unamused by any of this?

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otterjb

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1372 on: September 26, 2008, 11:46:57 am »

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1373 on: September 26, 2008, 03:49:55 pm »
These clips made me think of the title of this thread.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4476649n

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461

She's Chancey Gardener, without the accidental intelligence.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1374 on: September 28, 2008, 10:47:46 am »

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1375 on: September 28, 2008, 10:57:06 am »
Yeah, you'd almost think she was the vice presidential candidate who thought FDR was president during the stock market crash and got on TV to talk about it.

Classic Republican response to criticism.  Instead of addressing it, the 5-year old's response of "oh yeah, well so-in-so did this..."
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1376 on: September 28, 2008, 11:24:05 am »
Classic Republican response to criticism.  Instead of addressing it, the 5-year old's response of "oh yeah, well so-in-so did this..."

Really, how's that different than comparing a vice-presidential candidate to a more intelligent fictional simpleton? One begets the other. I like Biden and don't like Palin but if either one says something stupid, I don't think it's "Democrat" or "Republican" to respond with saying the other one says stupid things as well.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1377 on: September 28, 2008, 11:43:29 am »
Really, how's that different than comparing a vice-presidential candidate to a more intelligent fictional simpleton? One begets the other. I like Biden and don't like Palin but if either one says something stupid, I don't think it's "Democrat" or "Republican" to respond with saying the other one says stupid things as well.


Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1378 on: September 28, 2008, 11:46:11 am »

Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.

I think everyone is guilty of that. What would be the most likely democratic response right now if someone challenged Barack's experience (my guess is that Palin and "one heartbeat away") is the likely answer.

What is amazing about every presidential election cycle is how personally invested otherwise seemingly rational people get in whatever lowest common denominators have bubbled up.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1379 on: September 28, 2008, 11:52:26 am »

Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.

All Asian people are smart, all black people are good dancers and all white men can't jump.

Come on, man. If only things were that simple. Hell, maybe they are and I'm the one who is idealistic and not so cynical after all.
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BizidyDizidy

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1380 on: September 28, 2008, 11:54:01 am »
All Asian people are smart, all black people are good dancers and all white men can't jump.



I think the NBA attests to the fact that the last one is actually true.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1381 on: September 28, 2008, 11:57:36 am »

Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.

Isn't that what you are doing with this very legitimate criticsm of Biden?  Deflect and Re-direct?  Or does accusing "republicans" (I assume this applies to anyone who does not share your "democrat" views) of being unable to abide criticism not qualify as a 5 yr old response?
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1382 on: September 28, 2008, 12:42:03 pm »
All Asian people are smart, all black people are good dancers and all white men can't jump.

The difference, of course, being that people cannot choose to be Asian, black, or white.  So your analogy isn't in the ballpark.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1383 on: September 28, 2008, 12:42:47 pm »
Isn't that what you are doing with this very legitimate criticsm of Biden?

When did I ever respond either way to criticism of Biden?

The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1384 on: September 28, 2008, 12:59:47 pm »
The difference, of course, being that people cannot choose to be Asian, black, or white.  So your analogy isn't in the ballpark.

It wasn't a serious anology. And I wasn't clear. The point wasn't about being able to choose one's culture, the point was, each individual of a large political grouping does not behave the exact same as every other individual of that political grouping.
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TheWizard

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1385 on: September 28, 2008, 02:05:50 pm »
This is a really long thread.
Today seems like a good day to burn a bridge or two

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1386 on: September 28, 2008, 03:09:10 pm »
It wasn't a serious anology. And I wasn't clear. The point wasn't about being able to choose one's culture, the point was, each individual of a large political grouping does not behave the exact same as every other individual of that political grouping.


Black, white, and Asian aren't political groupings, they're racial/geographical.  I'm not sure of the point you're attempting to make, other than you're saying I used too wide of a brush. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1387 on: September 28, 2008, 03:50:07 pm »
I'm not sure of the point you're attempting to make, other than you're saying I used too wide of a brush. 

That's it. Specifically, when you said, "Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1388 on: September 29, 2008, 08:29:19 am »

Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.

On the other hand, I can't count the number of times a Democrat has tried to argue that a certain Republican idea is bad because the president can't pronounce 'nuclear' or he looks like a chimpanzee.   Though this seems to have stopped happening to me so much since I left academia . . .

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1389 on: September 29, 2008, 09:26:04 am »
Yeah, you'd almost think she was the vice presidential candidate who thought FDR was president during the stock market crash and got on TV to talk about it.

Thanks for the link to the article that's got the phrase "Biden slips" in its URL.  If such a slip is to come anywhere near some of the nonsense that McPalin is saying, this has to be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseam, despite constantly having it debunked.

BTW, I might not be participating in the site as much as I have in the past.  You see, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window, so I fully expect Bob McNair to install me as the Texans' offensive coordinator any day now.
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Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1390 on: September 29, 2008, 09:34:11 am »
Thanks for the link to the article that's got the phrase "Biden slips" in its URL.  If such a slip is to come anywhere near some of the nonsense that McPalin is saying, this has to be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseam, despite constantly having it debunked.

BTW, I might not be participating in the site as much as I have in the past.  You see, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window, so I fully expect Bob McNair to install me as the Texans' offensive coordinator any day now.

Do you know anything about Defense?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1391 on: September 29, 2008, 09:38:52 am »
Do you know anything about Defense?

As I said, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window.
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Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1392 on: September 29, 2008, 09:39:53 am »
As I said, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window.

Well then, you are as qualified as Richard Smith.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1393 on: September 29, 2008, 10:37:52 am »
I think everyone is guilty of that. What would be the most likely democratic response right now if someone challenged Barack's experience (my guess is that Palin and "one heartbeat away") is the likely answer.

What is amazing about every presidential election cycle is how personally invested otherwise seemingly rational people get in whatever lowest common denominators have bubbled up.

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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1394 on: September 29, 2008, 11:42:48 am »
Do you know anything about Defense?

Of course.  He's British, not French.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1395 on: September 29, 2008, 04:50:46 pm »
Of course.  He's British, not French.

The French know plenty about defense! Running away is a form of defense, right?
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1396 on: September 29, 2008, 04:52:56 pm »
The French know plenty about defense! Running away is a form of defense, right?

The French don't run.  They surrender.
Goin' for a bus ride.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1397 on: September 29, 2008, 05:56:09 pm »
On the other hand, I can't count the number of times a Democrat has tried to argue that a certain Republican idea is bad because the president can't pronounce 'nuclear' or he looks like a chimpanzee.   Though this seems to have stopped happening to me so much since I left academia . . .


Hmmmm...that's curious, as he's still not learned to pronounce "nuclear" and he still looks like a chimpanzee.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1398 on: September 29, 2008, 09:37:57 pm »
Classic Republican response to criticism.  Instead of addressing it, the 5-year old's response of "oh yeah, well so-in-so did this..."

Nope. I addressed the criticism that she's stupid by noting that her opponent sometimes sounds like an idiot when he speaks as well. I can't change or defend what she said, but there's nothing childish about pointing out that both candidates have weaknesses in this regard.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 10:03:43 pm by Arky Vaughan »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1399 on: September 29, 2008, 09:47:30 pm »
Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.

Nope again. I can't speak for others, but I've got plenty of criticism for Republicans. McCain's populist pose regarding the financial crisis sounds ridiculous. I'm not sure he grasps the issues much better than his opponent does.

Bush has a long list of screw-ups: allowing the dollar to plummet in value, failing to vigorously defend his decision to go to war, punting on Iran and North Korea, misjudging Putin and Russia, abandoning his principles on campaign-finance reform, nominating Harriet Myers to the Supreme Court, encouraging and signing into law the open-ended prescription drug benefit, abandoning school choice in the education bill, rolling over for big steel on trade and big agriculture on subsidies, refusing to rein in the career staffers at the State Department, the CIA and the EPA.

There are people of all political stripes who can't abide criticism, and you might better make reference to the thin-skinned Obama campaign, or even the Clinton administration, on this count. It tends to make Obama very irritable, and it tended to make the Clinton administration very defensive. It reduced the Bush administration to a bunker mentality, which undermined his presidency and left him in the predicament he and his party are in now.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 10:03:07 pm by Arky Vaughan »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1400 on: September 29, 2008, 09:56:15 pm »
As I said, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window.

Six months ago, Obama was arguing in the Democratic primaries that he has foreign policy experience because he had made speeches about the subject. Then he went to Europe and made more speeches.

So, you see, you need not even have a view of Reliant Stadium. If you were merely talking about defense to a group of coworkers around the water cooler, you would be qualified based on the Obama standard. If you did this on foreign soil, so much the better.

It's ironic that virtually every criticism you've trotted out in this epic thread about Palin is so strongly represented by the two candidates on the opposing ticket. It's even more ironic that you can't grasp the hypocrisy in this.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1401 on: September 29, 2008, 10:00:18 pm »
Thanks for the link to the article that's got the phrase "Biden slips" in its URL.  If such a slip is to come anywhere near some of the nonsense that McPalin is saying, this has to be repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseam, despite constantly having it debunked.

BTW, I might not be participating in the site as much as I have in the past.  You see, I can see Reliant Stadium from my office window, so I fully expect Bob McNair to install me as the Texans' offensive coordinator any day now.

He slipped? He was peddling a line of nonsense. And it's not a rare thing for him, either.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1402 on: September 30, 2008, 12:38:07 am »
Six months ago, Obama was arguing in the Democratic primaries that he has foreign policy experience because he had made speeches about the subject. Then he went to Europe and made more speeches.

Yes.  He just spoke, in public, about the subject.  Presumably you think he was just winging it, having never bothered to research the topic of the speech before giving it.


It's ironic that virtually every criticism you've trotted out in this epic thread about Palin is so strongly represented by the two candidates on the opposing ticket. It's even more ironic that you can't grasp the hypocrisy in this.

You make the mistake of assuming that the flaws of one candidate automatically equal the flaws of another.  Which is just silly.  Biden hasn't been getting as much criticism as Palin in this thread, not because of hypocrisy, but because, despite the occasional misstep, he's demonstrated time and time again that he has a grip on the subject.  You are trying to argue that the Rockies are the same as the Texas Hill Country, because both involve elevation changes.

BTW, did you see the SNL skit about Palin?  Large tranches of that "parody" were simply lifted verbatim from the Couric interview.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 12:53:09 am by Limey »
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1403 on: September 30, 2008, 12:38:46 am »
He slipped? He was peddling a line of nonsense. And it's not a rare thing for him, either.

He's a politician. 
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otterjb

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1404 on: September 30, 2008, 01:05:21 am »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1405 on: September 30, 2008, 08:56:02 am »
He's a politician.

Riiiiggghhhtttt.

I expect politicians to lie to me about raising my taxes, flip-flopping on their past positions, etc.

But characterizing an idiotic statement by a man whose career has been a serial case of foot-in-mouth disease as merely being a case of a politician being a politician is ludicrous.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1406 on: September 30, 2008, 09:01:47 am »
Riiiiggghhhtttt.

I expect politicians to lie to me about raising my taxes, flip-flopping on their past positions, etc.

But characterizing an idiotic statement by a man whose career has been a serial case of foot-in-mouth disease as merely being a case of a politician being a politician is ludicrous.

are you talking about Bush or Biden?
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1407 on: September 30, 2008, 09:08:42 am »
Yes.  He just spoke, in public, about the subject.  Presumably you think he was just winging it, having never bothered to research the topic of the speech before giving it.

Oh, so now he's researched foreign policy as well as given speeches about it? Well, that makes it all different. Let's put him in charge immediately!

Quote
You make the mistake of assuming that the flaws of one candidate automatically equal the flaws of another.  Which is just silly.  Biden hasn't been getting as much criticism as Palin in this thread, not because of hypocrisy, but because, despite the occasional misstep, he's demonstrated time and time again that he has a grip on the subject.  You are trying to argue that the Rockies are the same as the Texas Hill Country, because both involve elevation changes.

BTW, did you see the SNL skit about Palin?  Large tranches of that "parody" were simply lifted verbatim from the Couric interview.

This would be a nifty argument except that the candidates in question on the Democratic ticket represent the zenith of their respective weaknesses.

Joe Biden is notorious for being one of the biggest gaffe-makers in the Senate. That may be one reason that he's been in Congress since the Nixon administration and has been running for president since the Reagan administration but has never been in the leadership, much less garnered any support for his campaigns for the White House. And Obama is without parallel for inexperience in a presidential candidate in modern times. As far as thinness of resume and track record, he is Mount Everest next to any other nominee by either major party.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1408 on: September 30, 2008, 09:09:39 am »
Riiiiggghhhtttt.

I expect politicians to lie to me about raising my taxes, flip-flopping on their past positions, etc.

But characterizing an idiotic statement by a man whose career has been a serial case of foot-in-mouth disease as merely being a case of a politician being a politician is ludicrous.

Rockies - Hill Country.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1409 on: September 30, 2008, 09:10:15 am »
are you talking about Bush or Biden?

I don't think many people, even among Bush's supporters, have tried to defend him against the charge of being a tongue-tied mangler of sentences. Pretending that Biden's gaffes are par-for-the-course among politicians is really, really rich.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1410 on: September 30, 2008, 09:11:11 am »
Rockies - Hill Country.

Read the response above. Your argument is as full of it as anything ever posted on this site, and that's saying something. Minimizing Biden's serial gaffe-making and Obama's unprecedented lack of experience for the Oval Office is the political equivalent of Bagwell to third. How somebody who can't even vote can get so invested to the point of blindness is stunning.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1411 on: September 30, 2008, 09:11:43 am »
This would be a nifty argument except that the candidates in question on the Democratic ticket represent the zenith of their respective weaknesses.

While Sarah Palin is merely a State Governor.  Eh?  Oh.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1412 on: September 30, 2008, 09:12:33 am »
Read the response above. Your argument is as full of it as anything ever posted on this site, and that's saying something. How somebody who can't even vote can get so invested to the point of blindness is stunning.

WFW
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1413 on: September 30, 2008, 09:13:32 am »
While Sarah Palin is merely a State Governor.  Eh?  Oh.

Obama is the least experienced major-party candidate in modern history. Trying to ignore that while castigating the junior member of the other ticket is a sad joke.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1414 on: September 30, 2008, 09:14:08 am »
WFW

You're desperate now, aren't you?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1415 on: September 30, 2008, 09:23:53 am »
Obama is the least experienced major-party candidate in modern history. Trying to ignore that while castigating the junior member of the other ticket is a sad joke.

I have never tried to ignore Obama's relative inexperience as the candidate at the top of the ticket.  You brought it up in defense of Palin's inexperience and obvious ignorance regarding national and international affairs.  You argued that the two things are the same.  They are not.

Then you decided that my opinion is irrelevant as I am not (yet) eligible to vote.  And I'm desperate?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1416 on: September 30, 2008, 09:35:11 am »
Obama is the least experienced major-party candidate in modern history. Trying to ignore that while castigating the junior member of the other ticket is a sad joke.

Just wondering, how much experience do you think someone needs, whether Republican or Democrat?

Bush was Governor for only 5 years, was that enough?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1417 on: September 30, 2008, 09:42:10 am »
Just wondering, how much experience do you think someone needs, whether Republican or Democrat?

Bush was Governor for only 5 years, was that enough?

In hindsight, probably not.

What concerns me most about both are the choices they've made about the people they surround themselves with.
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« Reply #1418 on: September 30, 2008, 09:44:07 am »
Oh, so now he's researched foreign policy as well as given speeches about it? Well, that makes it all different. Let's put him in charge immediately!

Let me preface this by saying that I think Reagan is easily a top-10 president.  But his foreign policy credentials were equivalent to Obama's when he took office, and he was dealing with issues that were, frankly, rather equivalent to what we see today.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1419 on: September 30, 2008, 10:53:28 am »
Let me preface this by saying that I think Reagan is easily a top-10 president.  But his foreign policy credentials were equivalent to Obama's when he took office, and he was dealing with issues that were, frankly, rather equivalent to what we see today.

Reagan's track record on precisely what he thought and what he intended to do in terms of domestic and foreign policy was far, far more established than virtually any position Obama has taken. Reagan had been making his views abundantly clear on all the issues of the day for about two decades. When people elected Reagan, they knew exactly what they were getting, for better or worse.

The questions about Obama are not just about his lack of hard experience, they are also about him being a cypher in so many ways. I readily admit that Palin is even more a cypher, which is why the McCain campaign conceded the experience issue and should have stopped talking about it when they selected Palin. But if Obama supporters are going to raise that issue with Palin, then they deserve to be reminded about how green their own presidential candidate is.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1420 on: September 30, 2008, 10:55:35 am »
Reagan's track record on precisely what he thought and what he intended to do in terms of domestic and foreign policy was far, far more established than virtually any position Obama has taken. Reagan had been making his views abundantly clear on all the issues of the day for about two decades. When people elected Reagan, they knew exactly what they were getting, for better or worse.

How did he let people know what he thought and what he intended to do in terms of domestic and foreign policy?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1421 on: September 30, 2008, 10:59:15 am »
Just wondering, how much experience do you think someone needs, whether Republican or Democrat?

Bush was Governor for only 5 years, was that enough?

I don't think there's a strict measure, but voters knew more about Bill Clinton or even Jimmy Carter when they elected them, and they knew more about George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan as well.

The most "qualified" person, in terms of government service, policy-making and offices held, elected president in the past few elections was George H. W. Bush. While his foreign policy skills were fairly on display, his domestic policy was a muddle, and he was turned out of office accordingly.

As an aside, one reason running for president out of the Senate is difficult and historically not successful is that the Senate is compromise-driven, whereas a president needs to be above all decisive even if compromise is sometimes required. Both McCain and Obama have reflected this in their reactions to various issues that have arisen during the campaign. John Kerry was plagued by a similar malady in 2004.

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« Reply #1422 on: September 30, 2008, 11:01:28 am »
I don't think there's a strict measure, but voters knew more about Bill Clinton or even Jimmy Carter when they elected them, and they knew more about George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan as well.

Correction: Voters *thought* they knew more about George W. Bush - unfortunately, everything he campaigned on turned out to be a lie.  And I'm one of those that fell for it.

But I think you are severely underestimating the degree to which Obama has put forth his positions.
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« Reply #1423 on: September 30, 2008, 11:22:40 am »
Correction: Voters *thought* they knew more about George W. Bush - unfortunately, everything he campaigned on turned out to be a lie.  And I'm one of those that fell for it.

But I think you are severely underestimating the degree to which Obama has put forth his positions.

Arky believes that only Republicans are allowed to establish their bona fides by giving speeches.  When Democrats do it, they are fodder for ridicule.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1424 on: September 30, 2008, 11:23:13 am »
I have never tried to ignore Obama's relative inexperience as the candidate at the top of the ticket.  You brought it up in defense of Palin's inexperience and obvious ignorance regarding national and international affairs.  You argued that the two things are the same.  They are not.

Then you decided that my opinion is irrelevant as I am not (yet) eligible to vote.  And I'm desperate?

I don't think there's a sound defense for Palin's inexperience on international affairs, because it's not an area where she has experience, expertise or a public record. The McCain campaign conceded this issue when it selected her, and it needs to move on rather than using silly examples to pretend she does have deep experience.

That being said, for supporters of Obama and his thin foreign policy resume to assail Palin on this count is hypocritical. Obama is smarter and has talked about it for longer, since he's been running for president virtually since his election to the Senate, but he has no significant record in the Senate on these issues, especially compared to Joe Biden or John McCain. That's precisely why he picked Biden.

So granted there is a degree of difference between Palin and Obama on foreign policy experience, but there are several degrees of difference on this topic between Obama and McCain. So however you slice it, it's a piss-poor argument to point to Palin's lack of foreign policy experience while simultaneously supporting Obama.

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« Reply #1425 on: September 30, 2008, 11:28:42 am »
Arky believes that only Republicans are allowed to establish their bona fides by giving speeches.  When Democrats do it, they are fodder for ridicule.

B.S. Reagan had been active in politics for 20 years, serving as governor of California, working in campaigns, challenging and coming close to beating Ford for the nomination in 1976. He had been speaking, writing and commentating professionally on these issues for even longer. Derided though his acting career may have been, his experience with labor issues in the unions shaped his understanding. Like him or not, he had made his views abundantly clear for a long time. If you think what Obama has done is equivalent to that, then you've got no clue what you're talking about.

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« Reply #1426 on: September 30, 2008, 11:29:26 am »
Correction: Voters *thought* they knew more about George W. Bush - unfortunately, everything he campaigned on turned out to be a lie.  And I'm one of those that fell for it.

But I think you are severely underestimating the degree to which Obama has put forth his positions.

What's he going to do about Iran? North Korea? Pakistan? Russia?

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« Reply #1427 on: September 30, 2008, 11:31:00 am »
I'm not looking at Palin's inexperience on the subject.  I'm looking at her inability to put together a coherent thought on the subject.

And according to several sources, it's not just foreign policy; it an as-yet unaired portion of the Couric interview, Palin is unable to name a single significant Supreme Court case since Roe.  No uncomfortable stammering, this time - just silence.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1428 on: September 30, 2008, 11:34:26 am »
I don't think there's a sound defense for Palin's inexperience on international affairs, because it's not an area where she has experience, expertise or a public record. The McCain campaign conceded this issue when it selected her, and it needs to move on rather than using silly examples to pretend she does have deep experience.

That being said, for supporters of Obama and his thin foreign policy resume to assail Palin on this count is hypocritical. Obama is smarter and has talked about it for longer, since he's been running for president virtually since his election to the Senate, but he has no significant record in the Senate on these issues, especially compared to Joe Biden or John McCain. That's precisely why he picked Biden.

So granted there is a degree of difference between Palin and Obama on foreign policy experience, but there are several degrees of difference on this topic between Obama and McCain. So however you slice it, it's a piss-poor argument to point to Palin's lack of foreign policy experience while simultaneously supporting Obama.

The big difference, for me, is that Obama's weakness, whether perceived or real, is foreign policy, so he picked the most experienced Democrat in that field as his running mate.  McCain is strong on foreign affairs but has a weakness, whether perceived or real, on economics, so he picks...Sarah Palin?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1429 on: September 30, 2008, 11:36:06 am »
The big difference, for me, is that Obama's weakness, whether perceived or real, is foreign policy, so he picked the most experienced Democrat in that field as his running mate.  McCain is strong on foreign affairs but has a weakness, whether perceived or real, on economics, so he picks...Sarah Palin?

Why isn't the economy a weakness for Obama?
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« Reply #1430 on: September 30, 2008, 11:36:32 am »
What's he going to do about Iran? North Korea?

Offer incentives like WTO members ship, economic investment, and normalized diplomatic relations in exhange for abandonment of their nuclear programs.  Providing economic incentives, especially to North Korea, makes a whole lot of sense when you realize that regime collapse in N. Korea would likely bring down S. Korea as well.

Quote
  Pakistan? Russia?

Given that your candidate has been mocking Obama's responses on these issues, I would think you'd be more familiar with them.  To sum, he favors direct action on targets in Pakistan when they are unwilling/able to take such action, and tying our military aid to their efforts agains Al Qaeda/Taliban.

I was not happy with his wishy-washy response on Russia, so you've got that one.
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« Reply #1431 on: September 30, 2008, 11:37:13 am »
Why isn't the economy a weakness for Obama?

When people like Warren Buffet say he's a better hoice to fix the economy, I listen.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1432 on: September 30, 2008, 11:37:47 am »
B.S. Reagan had been active in politics for 20 years, serving as governor of California, working in campaigns, challenging and coming close to beating Ford for the nomination in 1976. He had been speaking, writing and commentating professionally on these issues for even longer. Derided though his acting career may have been, his experience with labor issues in the unions shaped his understanding. Like him or not, he had made his views abundantly clear for a long time. If you think what Obama has done is equivalent to that, then you've got no clue what you're talking about.

And for his entire life, prior to entering the 2008 Presidential race, Barack Obama has been cleaning toilets?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1433 on: September 30, 2008, 11:39:21 am »
When people like Warren Buffet say he's a better hoice to fix the economy, I listen.

Just meant that there is nothing in the resume or history of either candidate that gives me any confidence that they know anything about the economy. Their individual plans could be better or worse (doubtful they either of them came up with them on their own).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1434 on: September 30, 2008, 11:42:01 am »
Why isn't the economy a weakness for Obama?

If you think Obama is weak on the economy, then that's your prerogative.  Obama has never said that he believes he is weak on economics.  McCain has.  More than once.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1435 on: September 30, 2008, 11:42:40 am »
Quote
McCain is strong on foreign affairs but has a weakness, whether perceived or real, on economics, so he picks...Sarah Palin?

I think McCain is terrible on foreign affairs.  He never met a war he didn't like and he quick-tempered about America's honor which is the last thing we need now.     I'd rather take Obama who has a much more cautious disposition about all things.   Muddy is good, clarity is bad in this area.  

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« Reply #1436 on: September 30, 2008, 11:43:24 am »
Just meant that there is nothing in the resume or history of either candidate that gives me any confidence that they know anything about the economy. Their individual plans could be better or worse (doubtful they either of them came up with them on their own).

Bush has an MBA, and look where that got us.  McCain fully admits (or at least used to) that the economy is not his strong suit, but his economic advisers are headed by Phil Gramm, the deregulation champion of all time.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1437 on: September 30, 2008, 11:43:47 am »
Just meant that there is nothing in the resume or history of either candidate that gives me any confidence that they know anything about the economy. Their individual plans could be better or worse (doubtful they either of them came up with them on their own).

McCain's economic plan was written by Sen. Phil Gramm.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1438 on: September 30, 2008, 11:46:53 am »
Bush has an MBA, and look where that got us.  McCain fully admits (or at least used to) that the economy is not his strong suit, but his economic advisers are headed by Phil Gramm, the deregulation champion of all time.

A President McCain is widely expected to make Gramm his Treasury Secretary.
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« Reply #1439 on: September 30, 2008, 11:48:03 am »
When people like Warren Buffet say he's a better hoice to fix the economy, I listen.

Buffet is a dyed in the wool leftist democrat.  Of course he's for Obama.
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« Reply #1440 on: September 30, 2008, 11:49:10 am »
And for his entire life, prior to entering the 2008 Presidential race, Barack Obama has been cleaning toilets?

Metaphorically you've hit on the kind of work that goes on in the back rooms of Chicago politics.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1441 on: September 30, 2008, 11:49:46 am »
When people like Warren Buffet say he's a better hoice to fix the economy, I listen.

And you believe Warren Buffet has your best interest (mine), anybody's but his own?) at heart?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1442 on: September 30, 2008, 11:49:52 am »
Buffet is a dyed in the wool leftist democrat.  Of course he's for Obama.

Is that why he was one of Schwarzenegger's advisors?
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« Reply #1443 on: September 30, 2008, 11:50:55 am »
And you believe Warren Buffet has your best interest (mine), anybody's but his own?) at heart?

I don't think having an eonomy in the toilet is in his best interests, or mine.  Are we seriously at the point where we're going to debate whether Warren Buffet is qualified to opine on economic issues?
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« Reply #1444 on: September 30, 2008, 11:52:30 am »
Is that why he was one of Schwarzenegger's advisors?

Arnold is about as left as a registered Republican gets.

Buffet supports the candidates he likes best and thinks will be most effective.  By and large those have been on the left.
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« Reply #1445 on: September 30, 2008, 11:53:56 am »
So he's "dyed in the wool leftist Democrat", except for when he isn't.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1446 on: September 30, 2008, 11:54:56 am »
So he's "dyed in the wool leftist Democrat", except for when he isn't.

Like Ahnuld.
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« Reply #1447 on: September 30, 2008, 11:55:23 am »
So he's "dyed in the wool leftist Democrat", except for when he isn't.

No.  But he isn't stupid.  He's not going to support a left candidate that he thinks can't get the job done.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1448 on: September 30, 2008, 11:55:51 am »
I don't think having an eonomy in the toilet is in his best interests, or mine.  Are we seriously at the point where we're going to debate whether Warren Buffet is qualified to opine on economic issues?

Not at all.  I recognize his brilliance.  But I also suspect he sees opportunity while others are panicking.  That's my opinion at least.  

Has he ever stated, in exact terms, why he thinks Obama would be better for the economy?
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« Reply #1449 on: September 30, 2008, 11:56:59 am »
I don't think having an eonomy in the toilet is in his best interests, or mine.  Are we seriously at the point where we're going to debate whether Warren Buffet is qualified to opine on economic issues?

It's not about knowledge; it's about philosophy.  If it were just about knowledge then Gramm's support for McCain should be just as positive to you as Buffet's is for Obama.
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« Reply #1450 on: September 30, 2008, 11:58:55 am »
It's not about knowledge; it's about philosophy.  If it were just about knowledge then Gramm's support for McCain should be just as positive to you as Buffet's is for Obama.

Fair enough.  The idea of "Treasury Secretary Phil Gramm" terrifies me even beyond "Attorney General John Ashcroft".
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« Reply #1451 on: September 30, 2008, 12:04:37 pm »
Fair enough.  The idea of "Treasury Secretary Phil Gramm" terrifies me even beyond "Attorney General John Ashcroft".

I'm not an expert specifically on Phil Gramm, but power market deregulation was the best thing to come out of Enron. A shame that all the other nonsense put the process back.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1452 on: September 30, 2008, 12:08:14 pm »
B.S. Reagan had been active in politics for 20 years, serving as governor of California, working in campaigns, challenging and coming close to beating Ford for the nomination in 1976. He had been speaking, writing and commentating professionally on these issues for even longer. Derided though his acting career may have been, his experience with labor issues in the unions shaped his understanding. Like him or not, he had made his views abundantly clear for a long time. If you think what Obama has done is equivalent to that, then you've got no clue what you're talking about.

http://www.reaganlibrary.com/reagan/speeches/rendezvous.asp
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1453 on: September 30, 2008, 12:33:35 pm »
Getting back on the original topic, I think we can all agree that this portrait of Sarah Palin is pretty sick.  Just what the heck is going on in the North Side of Chicago?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1454 on: September 30, 2008, 12:49:14 pm »
Getting back on the original topic, I think we can all agree that this portrait of Sarah Palin is pretty sick.  Just what the heck is going on in the North Side of Chicago?

Dunno, is it weird to paint a nude portrait of someone else with your daughter as the model?
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MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1455 on: September 30, 2008, 12:53:53 pm »
Dunno, is it weird to paint a nude portrait of someone else with your daughter as the model?

There is no circumstance in which it is not weird to paint a nude portrait of your daughter.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1456 on: September 30, 2008, 01:49:33 pm »
Must See TV Thursdays is back!!!

Quote from: Sarah Palin
And I do look forward to Thursday night and debating Sen. Joe Biden. We’re gonna talk about those new ideas, new energy for America. I’m looking forward to meeting him too. I’ve never met him before, but I’ve been hearing about his Senate speeches since I was in like second grade.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1457 on: September 30, 2008, 02:04:32 pm »
Must See TV Thursdays is back!!!


I won't be watching.  I don't believe either brings much if anything to their respective tickets.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1458 on: September 30, 2008, 02:06:44 pm »
I won't be watching.  I don't believe either brings much if anything to their respective tickets.

But both have the ability to lop the legs off their respective running mates at the knees.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1459 on: September 30, 2008, 02:15:04 pm »
But both have the ability to lop the legs off their respective running mates at the knees.

Possibly.  I think though at this point Palin no longer helps McCain and is starting to hurt him on her own without the debate.  To now, no one has paid attention to Biden.  He is a trainwreck waiting to happen.  If he's on the mic long enough he could actually hurt Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1460 on: September 30, 2008, 02:33:36 pm »
Must See TV Thursdays is back!!!

Quote
And I do look forward to Thursday night and debating Sen. Joe Biden. We’re gonna talk about those new ideas, new energy for America. I’m looking forward to meeting him too. I’ve never met him before, but I’ve been hearing about his Senate speeches since I was in like second grade.

Really?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1461 on: September 30, 2008, 02:39:17 pm »
Really?

Yep.  Ridiculing her opponent for being old.  This after she proferred on Monday the same tactic (strategy, whatever) for dealing with Pakistan as was proferred by Obama, and ridiculed by McCain, on Friday.

Agent Palin.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1462 on: September 30, 2008, 02:42:01 pm »
Possibly.  I think though at this point Palin no longer helps McCain and is starting to hurt him on her own without the debate.  To now, no one has paid attention to Biden.  He is a trainwreck waiting to happen.  If he's on the mic long enough he could actually hurt Obama.

Pulling the original question back into play.  If the game was to pull in the far right, it was at least a short term success and possibly is not impacted by her poor showings.  I would venture many of those would not ever sway to the Dems, and are unlikely to not vote (as was the original concern) now, especially as they see the attacks on tv as an attack on them.  Any in the middle that she pulled in, though, are going to be hard to keep at this pace.  I've personally seen one intelligent/invested voter jump ship already, that I previously thought was a lock for McCain.  Republican strategy now may have to be to go deep into the conservative base with an all out "outrage at the liberal left" campaign with the hope that you can pull more out there than you will lose in the center.  Desperate times...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1463 on: September 30, 2008, 05:18:47 pm »
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1464 on: September 30, 2008, 05:21:30 pm »
Back to original topic:

You really can't make this stuff up.

Quote
Gov. Palin: Oh no, it's nothing negative at all. He's got a lot of experience and just stating the fact there, that we've been hearing his speeches for all these years. So he's got a tremendous amount of experience and, you know, I'm the new energy, the new face, the new ideas and he's got the experience based on many many years in the Senate and voters are gonna have a choice there of what it is that they want in these next four years.

Mrs. Palin, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1465 on: September 30, 2008, 05:27:50 pm »
Back to original topic:

You really can't make this stuff up.

Holy shit, I was embarrassed watching that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1466 on: September 30, 2008, 05:33:13 pm »
It's getting to the point where I can't even laugh any more.  You can say what you will about Hillary - and believe me, I've said a lot - but her "18 million cracks in the glass ceiling" was spot on, and Palin is now attempting to patch every damn one of them.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1467 on: September 30, 2008, 06:05:12 pm »
Both sides are playing the same dumb game.

You want Experience?  We've got it in McCain!  And that Obama guy is just a rookie!  You want new, young insight to break through old Washington politics?  We've got in Palin!  And Biden sure is old!

You want new, young insight to break through old Washington politics?  We've got it in Obama!  And McCain sure is old! You want Experience?  We've got it in Biden!  And that Palin chick is just a rookie! 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1468 on: September 30, 2008, 09:11:00 pm »
There are people of all political stripes who can't abide criticism, and you might better make reference to the thin-skinned Obama campaign, or even the Clinton administration, on this count. It tends to make Obama very irritable, and it tended to make the Clinton administration very defensive. It reduced the Bush administration to a bunker mentality, which undermined his presidency and left him in the predicament he and his party are in now.


Quod Erat Demonstratum.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1469 on: September 30, 2008, 11:01:28 pm »
Miss Teen South Carolina could have answered that better.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1470 on: September 30, 2008, 11:03:45 pm »
Quod Erat Demonstratum.

A statement that specifically criticizes the Bush administration is proof that Republican's can't abide criticism?

Reductio ad absurdum.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1471 on: October 01, 2008, 09:38:48 am »
Another day, more gibberish.


Quote
COURIC: And when it comes to establishing, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and understand the world?

PALIN: I’ve read most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media.

COURIC: Like what ones specifically?

PALIN:  Umm… all of them. Any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.

COURIC: Can you name any of them?

PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news… Alaska isn’t a foreign country where it’s kind of suggested it seems like, wow how could you keep in touch with what the rest of Washington, DC may be thinking and doing, when you live up there in Alaska. Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America.


So that would be "No, I can't name one.  Not a one.  Nada.  Nyet."

This, from someone with a degree in journalism.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 09:50:49 am by Limey »
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Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1472 on: October 01, 2008, 10:33:49 am »
Another day, more gibberish.



So that would be "No, I can't name one.  Not a one.  Nada.  Nyet."

This, from someone with a degree in journalism.

The thing is that 90% naw 99.9% of Americans can't either, so they think big deal. 


Sorry my bad, thought this was about supreme court cases.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 10:35:24 am by Astroholic »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1473 on: October 01, 2008, 10:37:54 am »
Anyone who graduated from college could name 5 Court cases without breaking a sweat.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1474 on: October 01, 2008, 10:41:03 am »
Anyone who graduated from college could name 5 Court cases without breaking a sweat.

Well, there's the Disciplinary Council of the Faber IFC versus Delta Tau Chi...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1475 on: October 01, 2008, 10:52:16 am »
Expectations are now so low for the beauty queen that pretty much all she has to do is stand there and smile and she'll be declared the winner by the fair and ballanced channel.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1476 on: October 01, 2008, 11:24:02 am »
Anyone who graduated from college could name 5 Court cases without breaking a sweat.

If you're in politics, Bush v. Gore shouldn't be too hard to remember.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1477 on: October 01, 2008, 11:31:20 am »
If you're in politics, Bush v. Gore shouldn't be too hard to remember.

Or if you're from Alaska, maybe even the governor, then I would think the Exxon Valdez settlement case might ring a bell. After all, the Supreme Court just ruled on it four months ago.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1478 on: October 01, 2008, 11:47:38 am »
And now for something completely different: McCain wants the treasury department to go ahead with bailout without congressional approval.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/30/%E2%80%9Ci%E2%80%99m-not-going-to-parse-every-answer%E2%80%9D/
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1479 on: October 01, 2008, 12:24:54 pm »
And now for something completely different: McCain wants the treasury department to go ahead with bailout without congressional approval.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/30/%E2%80%9Ci%E2%80%99m-not-going-to-parse-every-answer%E2%80%9D/

So...because he and Bush can't even get their own party to vote for the bailout package Bush himself drew up, he wants to control the treasury by fiat?  Mr. McCain might want to brush up on a little document called the Magna Carta.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1480 on: October 01, 2008, 12:39:23 pm »
Anyone who graduated from college could name 5 Court cases without breaking a sweat.

Really.  Don't think I could.  I might have been able to at one time, but the drugs and alcohol and all.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1481 on: October 01, 2008, 12:47:07 pm »
So...because he and Bush can't even get their own party to vote for the bailout package Bush himself drew up, he wants to control the treasury by fiat?  Mr. McCain might want to brush up on a little document called the Magna Carta.

It's appalling.  There's no way to sugar coat it.
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1482 on: October 01, 2008, 12:48:31 pm »
Mr. McCain might want to brush up on a little document called the Magna Carta.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1483 on: October 01, 2008, 01:38:04 pm »
Really.  Don't think I could.  I might have been able to at one time, but the drugs and alcohol and all.

 That is surprising to me.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 01:40:57 pm by Bench »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1484 on: October 01, 2008, 02:00:11 pm »
That is surprising to me.

Why?  I am not a lawyer, I am a database analyst.  It has been a long time since I studied business law or POLY SCI or anything other than SQL, SSRS, SSIS, VB, etc.

Astroholic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1485 on: October 01, 2008, 02:05:50 pm »
That is surprising to me.

Ill take it one farther.  I bet most people can't name 4 of the 9 justices.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1486 on: October 01, 2008, 02:06:04 pm »
That is surprising to me.

If someone stuck a camera in my face and asked I could get off "Brown v. Board of Education" and "Plessy v. Ferguson" and then I would start sweating.    There are cases I have vague recollections of (Miranda? Heller? Dred Scott?), but I'm not sure that counts.   On the other hand I'm not a lawyer or running for office.    

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1487 on: October 01, 2008, 02:19:05 pm »
On the other hand I'm not a lawyer or running for office.    

There's the problem.  She is, and she's been put in a position to fail.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1488 on: October 01, 2008, 02:20:17 pm »
There's the problem.  She is, and she's been put in a position to fail.

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
EXXON SHIPPING CO. et al. v. BAKER et al.

Decided June 25, 2008
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-219.ZS.html

The U.S. Supreme Court’s decision Wednesday slashing the damages Exxon Mobil (XOM) must pay as a result of the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill could have unexpectedly wide-ranging consequences. An award to Alaskan fishermen and other residents was reduced from $2.5 billion to about $500 million.
http://legalpad.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/06/25/supreme-court-slashes-25b-exxon-valdez-award/

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1489 on: October 01, 2008, 02:21:34 pm »
That is surprising to me.

not to me.

the only court cases i even try to remember are ones i work with.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1490 on: October 01, 2008, 02:24:20 pm »
i remembered some from a constitutional history class i had taken.  but i think i only remembered plessey, dred and brown because i rearranged the bookcase they were on a couple of weeks ago. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1491 on: October 01, 2008, 02:27:09 pm »
Ill take it one farther.  I bet most people can't name 4 of the 9 justices.

just for those that can not name them.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/biographiescurrent.pdf
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1492 on: October 01, 2008, 02:27:15 pm »
So...because he and Bush can't even get their own party to vote for the bailout package Bush himself drew up, he wants to control the treasury by fiat?  Mr. McCain might want to brush up on a little document called the Magna Carta.

They already eliminated Habeas Corpus with the Military Commissions Act.  Why stop there?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1493 on: October 01, 2008, 02:34:14 pm »
There's the problem.  She is, and she's been put in a position to fail.

She should have said something about Brown and Exxon..After that I am not sure it is a pre-requisite for a politician to know Supreme Court decisions.  For Gods sakes she is/was a hockey mom, whatever the hell that means.  She is a pretty face put there to entice the common guys/Hillary girls to vote for McCain.  Let’s see if the strategy works.

Bush is not a very good a public speaking genius and he got elected (allegedly) twice.  Do you think he could name 5 cases?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1494 on: October 01, 2008, 02:37:45 pm »
She should have said something about Brown and Exxon..After that I am not sure it is a pre-requisite for a politician to know Supreme Court decisions.  For Gods sakes she is/was a hockey mom, whatever the hell that means.  She is a pretty face put there to entice the common guys/Hillary girls to vote for McCain.  Let’s see if the strategy works.

Bush is not a very good a public speaking genius and he got elected (allegedly) twice.  Do you think he could name 5 cases?

I bet he can name five regarding church and state.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1495 on: October 01, 2008, 02:40:43 pm »
not to me.

the only court cases i even try to remember are ones i work with.

So Plessy is the first to come to mind for you?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1496 on: October 01, 2008, 02:42:05 pm »
They already eliminated Habeas Corpus with the Military Commissions Act.  Why stop there?

This Bush guy is kinda okay.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1497 on: October 01, 2008, 02:46:35 pm »
This Bush guy is kinda okay.

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Some say Lincoln is gay.  He's not fit for office.

Best regards,
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I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1498 on: October 01, 2008, 02:46:57 pm »
This Bush guy is kinda okay.

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He suspended it, was told he wasn't allowed to, unsuspended it and had Congress resuspended it.

The MCA eliminates it for non-citizens.  Gone.  No lawyers, no courts, no appeals, no phone call, no nothing.  Now, say you're a citizen and get picked up by mistake, and they say you're not a citizen because they think you're someone else who isn't, how do you prove them wrong?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #1499 on: October 01, 2008, 02:47:40 pm »
Why?  I am not a lawyer, I am a database analyst.  It has been a long time since I studied business law or POLY SCI or anything other than SQL, SSRS, SSIS, VB, etc.

It's an important part of our government.  Would most people not be able to name The New Deal, or the Monroe Doctrine, or other equivalent executive/legislative initiatives?
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."