Author Topic: Palin. WTF?  (Read 381455 times)

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #500 on: September 03, 2008, 10:32:32 am »
Huh?  When did THIS happen?

20 years ago.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #501 on: September 03, 2008, 10:33:45 am »
20 years ago.

You mean about the time I stopped banging teenage girls in my '74 Nova?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

MusicMan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #502 on: September 03, 2008, 10:37:30 am »
You mean about the time I stopped banging teenage girls in my '74 Nova?

I would hope that stopped 30 years ago.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #503 on: September 03, 2008, 10:41:28 am »
You mean about the time I stopped banging teenage girls in my '74 Nova?

A '74 Nova would've been way smoother than my '78 Caprice Classic, powder blue except for a banana-yellow right front fender.

BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #504 on: September 03, 2008, 10:43:08 am »
You guys had shit for cars.  My '69 Chevy Malibu was the rage.  My best friend in high school did have a Nova though.  My car had more room.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #505 on: September 03, 2008, 10:45:10 am »
You mean about the time I stopped banging teenage girls in my '74 Nova?

You keep telling yourself that this used to happen, and maybe one day you'll think it's true.

i.e.  Don't stop...believin'
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Gizzmonic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #506 on: September 03, 2008, 10:45:30 am »
You mean about the time I stopped banging teenage girls in my '74 Nova?

At least you guys had a car.  I was stuck driving my dad's '92 Saturn (when I could wrest it away from him).
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BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #507 on: September 03, 2008, 10:46:11 am »
how old are you?
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austro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #508 on: September 03, 2008, 10:52:32 am »
You guys had shit for cars.  My '69 Chevy Malibu was the rage.  My best friend in high school did have a Nova though.  My car had more room.

You want abstinence training? Convertible Volkswagen, baby.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #509 on: September 03, 2008, 10:52:50 am »
At least you guys had a car.  I was stuck driving my dad's '92 Saturn (when I could wrest it away from him).

1892?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #510 on: September 03, 2008, 10:53:09 am »
You guys had shit for cars.  My '69 Chevy Malibu was the rage.  My best friend in high school did have a Nova though.  My car had more room.

So your Mum banning boys from your bedroom worked out well then.

Also, I used to drive my Mum's one of these, until I started work at which point I bought myself a beaten up one of these.  For very different reasons, getting laid in these cars was problematic.
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austro

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #511 on: September 03, 2008, 10:55:03 am »
Also, I used to drive my Mum's one of these, until I started work at which point I bought myself a beaten up one of these.  For very different reasons, getting laid in these cars was problematic.

Oh, close. After the Volkswagen we had an Austin Marina for a few years. It was not the most reliable vehicle I've ever dealt with.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #512 on: September 03, 2008, 10:55:14 am »
That's depressing.  I had a 79 Camaro Berlinetta (with a 350 instead of a 305).  I haven't been in the back seat of that (or any other car) with a teenage girl in 18 years.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #513 on: September 03, 2008, 10:55:27 am »
So your Mum banning boys from your bedroom worked out well then.

Also, I used to drive my Mum's one of these, until I started work at which point I bought myself a beaten up one of these.  For very different reasons, getting laid in these cars was problematic.

Did that blonde in the pictures in the latter link come with the car?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #514 on: September 03, 2008, 10:59:07 am »
At least you guys had a car.  I was stuck driving my dad's '92 Saturn (when I could wrest it away from him).

... speaking of underage.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #515 on: September 03, 2008, 11:00:16 am »
 For very different reasons, getting laid in these cars was problematic.

Problematic becasue of the car or because you could not find a gal for the right price?

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #516 on: September 03, 2008, 11:04:42 am »
There is no "explicit sex-based" sex ed program that doesn't mention the merits of abstinence.  Saying I'm "anti explicit sex-based" programs is more code for "I'm for abstinence-only" programs than "teach the debate" is code for "evolution shouldn't be taught in science classes."

The major program from the HHS to address teen pregnancy is called Abstinence Until Marriage.  It's true that it doesn't only rely on abstinence, it covers

 "a broad range of issues, from building self-esteem, to understanding and aspiring to healthy marriages and parenthood, to teaching skills that will help youth make and follow through on good decisions,
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2002pres/20020423.html

Abstinence AND self esteem training.  Done.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #517 on: September 03, 2008, 11:05:32 am »
16 year olds today do not listen to Journey

Yes they do.  During middle school announcement last year, the kids were allowed to play music behind the announcements.  #1 played band.  Journey.(as told by my son)  No kidding.

ETA:  I think band #2 was Bon Jovi.  What's up with kids these days?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #518 on: September 03, 2008, 11:05:54 am »
I would hope that stopped 30 years ago.

Jeez, I'm not THAT old dude.  I was still masturbating to National Geographic 30 years ago.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #519 on: September 03, 2008, 11:06:18 am »
The major program from the HHS to address teen pregnancy is called Abstinence Until Marriage.  It's true that it doesn't only rely on abstinence, it covers

 "a broad range of issues, from building self-esteem, to understanding and aspiring to healthy marriages and parenthood, to teaching skills that will help youth make and follow through on good decisions,
http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2002pres/20020423.html

Abstinence AND self esteem training.  Done.

On behalf of my son, I am against self-esteem training for pre-teen and teenage girls.

On behalf of my daughter, I favor chastity belts and nunneries.

HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #520 on: September 03, 2008, 11:07:04 am »
You want abstinence training? Convertible Volkswagen, baby.

My wife and I once had sex in the front seat of her Jeep Wrangler.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #521 on: September 03, 2008, 11:07:18 am »
Yes they do.  During middle school announcement last year, the kids were allowed to play music behind the announcements.  #1 played band.  Journey.(as told by my son)  No kidding.

Journey garners a fair amount of downloads on iTunes.  A good chunk of downloading on iTunes is done by teenagers.

VirtualBob

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #522 on: September 03, 2008, 11:08:21 am »
Journey garners a fair amount of downloads on iTunes.  A good chunk of downloading on iTunes is done by teenagers.
This has the makings of a really bad syllogism.
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BudGirl

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #523 on: September 03, 2008, 11:10:27 am »
Jeez, I'm not THAT old dude.  I was still masturbating to National Geographic 30 years ago.

30 years or minutes?
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Andyzipp

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #524 on: September 03, 2008, 11:10:56 am »
This has the makings of a really bad syllogism.

It's why I stopped where I did.

JaneDoe

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #525 on: September 03, 2008, 11:12:50 am »
30 years or minutes?
30 picoseconds.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #526 on: September 03, 2008, 11:15:18 am »
My wife and I once had sex in the front seat of her Jeep Wrangler.

Don't Jeep Wranglers overturn easily?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #527 on: September 03, 2008, 11:15:42 am »
Did that blonde in the pictures in the latter link come with in the car?

Yep, if you play your cards right.  Also, you have to be prepared to sacrifice elements of the car's interior, most notably the rear view mirror.
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MRaup

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #528 on: September 03, 2008, 11:15:52 am »
30 picoseconds.

A time measurement based on South of the Border chip accessories?
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #529 on: September 03, 2008, 11:16:23 am »
Problematic becasue of the car or because you could not find a gal for the right price?

Car #1 too shit.  Car #2 too small.
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Gizzmonic

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #530 on: September 03, 2008, 11:18:34 am »
Getting a little bit back the "Sarah Palin" topic...without straying too far from the "masturbation" topic: (probably NSFW
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #531 on: September 03, 2008, 11:29:34 am »
Getting a little bit back the "Sarah Palin" topic...without straying too far from the "masturbation" topic: (probably NSFW

I think the ethics investigation is going to really, really hurt.  The report is due out on Oct. 31, and the State Senator running the investigation is claiming that the McCain campaign wants it delayed until after the election.  Doesn't appear that he's going to oblige.

ETA:  Looks like there's a tape of one of her aides pressuring the Public Safety Commissioner, who she fired and which action is the subject of the investigation, to fire her douchebag brother-in-law.  She said no one in her adminstration had done this, but has now admitted to the tape and another two dozen contacts between her office and the PSC over the subject of her brother-in-law.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 11:35:59 am by Limey »
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HudsonHawk

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #532 on: September 03, 2008, 12:37:08 pm »
Don't Jeep Wranglers overturn easily?

It was not recently.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

ybbodeus

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #533 on: September 03, 2008, 12:50:50 pm »
At least you guys had a car.  I was stuck driving my dad's '92 Saturn (when I could wrest it away from him).

Luxury! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSQeMBzHR0o&feature=related
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #534 on: September 03, 2008, 01:00:15 pm »
At least you guys had a car.  I was stuck driving my dad's '92 Saturn (when I could wrest it away from him).

I guess there's little doubt where you stand on teenage abstinence?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #535 on: September 03, 2008, 01:21:23 pm »
I think the ethics investigation is going to really, really hurt. 

I don't think it will.


Quote
The report is due out on Oct. 31, and the State Senator running the investigation is claiming that the McCain campaign wants it delayed until after the election.  Doesn't appear that he's going to oblige.

Funny that the entire article is grounded on quotes from the Senator leading the investigation who just so happens to be a Democrat.  No way he'd be doing or saying anything he can to embarrass her right now.


Quote
ETA:  Looks like there's a tape of one of her aides pressuring the Public Safety Commissioner, who she fired and which action is the subject of the investigation, to fire her douchebag brother-in-law.  She said no one in her adminstration had done this, but has now admitted to the tape and another two dozen contacts between her office and the PSC over the subject of her brother-in-law.

Reads like she's insulated to me.  Overzealous administrators did the deeds.  Unless they come out and say she told them to do it (in that article they certainly don't) she comes out looking like someone who inspires passion in others.

If Glenn and McCain can survive the Keating 5 scandal and 20 years later look like beacons of responsibility, then she can survive this easily.
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Taras Bulba

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #536 on: September 03, 2008, 01:25:02 pm »
Having two teenage daughters currently and once myself having been a teenage boy, this whole thread makes me a little nauseous.

I will say that the '65 Ford Galaxy 500 had an inconvenient design flaw in that the interior door handles were flat and lifted up, so an inadvertant upward heel kick would open the door with a resulting ignition of the dome light.  A guy told me this.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 01:26:40 pm by Taras Bulba »
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #537 on: September 03, 2008, 01:36:37 pm »
I don't think it will.


Funny that the entire article is grounded on quotes from the Senator leading the investigation who just so happens to be a Democrat.  No way he'd be doing or saying anything he can to embarrass her right now.


Reads like she's insulated to me.  Overzealous administrators did the deeds.  Unless they come out and say she told them to do it (in that article they certainly don't) she comes out looking like someone who inspires passion in others.

If Glenn and McCain can survive the Keating 5 scandal and 20 years later look like beacons of responsibility, then she can survive this easily.

Besides, pushing her churlish brother in law off a bridge will just make her seem more "like one of us".  Oh who hasn't used their political connections to harass ex in-laws

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #538 on: September 03, 2008, 02:00:29 pm »
I don't think it will.


Funny that the entire article is grounded on quotes from the Senator leading the investigation who just so happens to be a Democrat.  No way he'd be doing or saying anything he can to embarrass her right now.


Reads like she's insulated to me.  Overzealous administrators did the deeds.  Unless they come out and say she told them to do it (in that article they certainly don't) she comes out looking like someone who inspires passion in others.

If Glenn and McCain can survive the Keating 5 scandal and 20 years later look like beacons of responsibility, then she can survive this easily.

The guy heading the committee is a Democrat, but he was picked to head the committee by bi-partisan agreement.  This isn't a Democratic witch hunt on the RNC's VP pick, this started long before any of that was even an inkling.  She asked her own AG to look into it, and he reckons that she's got a problem.

And, as of right now, we know that her surrogates have put inappropriate pressure on the guy she eventually fired.  If those dots are connected between now and the due date for the report - 4 days before the election (again, something determined before she became a VP candidate) - there will be no time to recover from the bad press.

And as I've said before, this isn't so much about Palin, it's about McCain's managerial skills that he would run headlong into this potential bear trap.  Does he apply the same sparse scrutiny to his appointment of the Secretary of State, Treasury, Justice etc. etc.  And up to 3 Supreme Court Justices?
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #539 on: September 03, 2008, 02:05:08 pm »
Oh who hasn't used their political connections to harass ex in-laws

Has this been "proven" yet or are we even bothering to wait for that part?
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #540 on: September 03, 2008, 02:07:24 pm »
Has this been "proven" yet or are we even bothering to wait for that part?

Not proven.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #541 on: September 03, 2008, 02:08:11 pm »
Has this been "proven" yet or are we even bothering to wait for that part?

"Proven"?  You mean is there a recorded phone call, a memo, a bloody axe?  No, I'll just wait for the butter to melt in her mouth.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #542 on: September 03, 2008, 02:22:45 pm »
The guy heading the committee is a Democrat, but he was picked to head the committee by bi-partisan agreement.  This isn't a Democratic witch hunt on the RNC's VP pick, this started long before any of that was even an inkling.  She asked her own AG to look into it, and he reckons that she's got a problem.

And, as of right now, we know that her surrogates have put inappropriate pressure on the guy she eventually fired.  If those dots are connected between now and the due date for the report - 4 days before the election (again, something determined before she became a VP candidate) - there will be no time to recover from the bad press.

And as I've said before, this isn't so much about Palin, it's about McCain's managerial skills that he would run headlong into this potential bear trap.  Does he apply the same sparse scrutiny to his appointment of the Secretary of State, Treasury, Justice etc. etc.  And up to 3 Supreme Court Justices?

As for her part, I would be surprised if it wasn't more smoke than fire.

As for McCain, I would not be surprised if he thought VP was less important than all the others you mentioned.  Even if not IMO he had a hard-on for her ethical stance against the nitwits in her own party and that's what got her selected.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #543 on: September 03, 2008, 02:34:13 pm »
Not proven.

So is this an example of push-polling?

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #544 on: September 03, 2008, 02:37:22 pm »
I think the ethics investigation is going to really, really hurt.  The report is due out on Oct. 31, and the State Senator running the investigation is claiming that the McCain campaign wants it delayed until after the election.  Doesn't appear that he's going to oblige.

ETA:  Looks like there's a tape of one of her aides pressuring the Public Safety Commissioner, who she fired and which action is the subject of the investigation, to fire her douchebag brother-in-law.  She said no one in her adminstration had done this, but has now admitted to the tape and another two dozen contacts between her office and the PSC over the subject of her brother-in-law.

It will be far worse than Tony Rezko and Bill Ayers, if for no other reason that Rezko and Ayers have been largely swept under the rug. But then to mention that is just push-polling.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #545 on: September 03, 2008, 02:45:28 pm »
So is this an example of push-polling?

Nope.  I was talking about an official investigation and statements made by those involved in an official investigation including statements made by the subject herself.  The issue with push polling, as was clearly explained in the Wikipedia article, is that it involves flinging unsubstantiated and inflammatory muck for no reason other than to make people dislike the target.  That is the polar opposite of what I have done.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #546 on: September 03, 2008, 03:09:33 pm »
It will be far worse than Tony Rezko and Bill Ayers, if for no other reason that Rezko and Ayers have been largely swept under the rug. But then to mention that is just push-polling.

It's push-polling if the mention of them is simply to tarnish the reputation of Obama.

Here's what the Chicago Sun-Times calls "8 things you need to know about Obama and Rezko".  What's not here is any suggestion that Rezko actually sought and/or received any special consideration from Obama.

As for Ayers, it appears that Obama's involvement with him is coincidental at best.

I welcome anything you may have to add as to why these two associations are an indictment of Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #547 on: September 03, 2008, 06:13:22 pm »
Warning: VERY Republican leaning link, but (I hope this is only funny and not insulting, but I don't know anything about BSG) this seems kinda funny:

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/272323.php

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #548 on: September 03, 2008, 09:39:57 pm »
Ohhh.  She's good.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #549 on: September 03, 2008, 10:01:52 pm »
Ohhh.  She's good.

Turned over to her just after the game ended. Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #550 on: September 03, 2008, 10:04:19 pm »
Do you really think that hormonal 16 year olds are thinking that rationally, sitting in the backseat of a '74 Nova with Journey playing in the background?

I don't know about a 74 Nova, but I can tell you stories about a '74 Malibu ;)
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #551 on: September 03, 2008, 10:11:39 pm »
Ohhh.  She's good.

Very impressive!
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #552 on: September 03, 2008, 10:17:42 pm »
Ohhh.  She's good.

Very well delivered speech.  The VP debate just became Must See TV.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #553 on: September 03, 2008, 10:24:50 pm »
Very well delivered speech.  The VP debate just became Must See TV.

She's saucy!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #554 on: September 03, 2008, 11:03:01 pm »
Very well delivered speech.  The VP debate just became Must See TV.

And Joe Biden no longer has to worry about "offending" the "little lady".  Joe, take off the gloves.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #555 on: September 03, 2008, 11:24:29 pm »
And Joe Biden no longer has to worry about "offending" the "little lady".  Joe, take off the gloves.

I'd put on a codpiece, as well.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #556 on: September 03, 2008, 11:32:00 pm »
I'd put on a codpiece, as well.

Exactly, but she better not start batting her eyes when she gets punched in the nose.  That little game is over.  They're going to have to hide her away and run her out to make speeches very quickly.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #557 on: September 03, 2008, 11:45:11 pm »
And Joe Biden no longer has to worry about "offending" the "little lady".  Joe, take off the gloves.

She did have some great put-down lines.  The one about the plastic pillars was especially good; after all, only an idiot would make an acceptance speech in front of a set of fake pillars.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #558 on: September 03, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »
Exactly, but she better not start batting her eyes when she gets punched in the nose.  That little game is over.  They're going to have to hide her away and run her out to make speeches very quickly.

Women are equal, she should be treated as such.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #559 on: September 03, 2008, 11:56:43 pm »
Exactly, but she better not start batting her eyes when she gets punched in the nose.  That little game is over.  They're going to have to hide her away and run her out to make speeches very quickly.

She is on record that complaining about "excess criticism" of "women in politics or women in general" is "whining".
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #560 on: September 04, 2008, 12:00:41 am »
Women are equal, she should be treated as such.

Equal pay for equal work?  She doesnt think so.  Equal control over their bodies? No.  Equal opportunity to decide what you can read or think?  Nope. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #561 on: September 04, 2008, 12:04:48 am »
Equal pay for equal work?  She doesnt think so.  Equal control over their bodies? No.  Equal opportunity to decide what you can read or think?  Nope. 

Do you REALLY want to get into a debate about abortion here Pravata.  If so, this Dallas County adoptee born 6 years before Roe v. Wade will be more than happy to go at it with you. 
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #562 on: September 04, 2008, 12:05:36 am »
Do you REALLY want to get into a debate about abortion here Pravata.  If so, this Dallas County adoptee born 6 years before Roe v. Wade will be more than happy to go at it with you. 

Yes.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #563 on: September 04, 2008, 12:14:11 am »
LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!

Actually, let's not have to waken Spack.  It's after midnight.  As entertaining as this may be to read, maybe going to PM is a better solution?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #564 on: September 04, 2008, 12:14:51 am »
LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!

Actually, let's not have to waken Spack.  It's after midnight.  As entertaining as this may be to read, maybe going to PM is a better solution?

Trust me.  It is not entertaining.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #565 on: September 04, 2008, 12:31:01 am »
Yes.

This 'Astros fan site' is not the place for discussions on abortion, which was entirely my point.  I would think given the 'rules' here, that a SnS Contributor (and 'Ferret Emeritus') would have the good sense to SHUT THE FUCK UP about this topic in its entirety.  However, since you appear not to, I'll show good sense and 'walk away.'
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #566 on: September 04, 2008, 01:44:46 am »
Republicans don't like community service/work? That's what stuck out to me. The swipe she took at Michelle and Barack at the fact that they helped establish some of the better community work services in Chicago to help people. In City year and Public Allies.

Hers speech was a good VP speech, yes. Better than Bidens? I'll say yeah since he seemed restrained.

Hopefully McCain will take the Obama route and talk about what his policies are. Palin didn't really do much of that. She was family, my stances, hockey mom, family, haha obama, family, haha democrats, oil, haha, the media...boooo, haha, my family.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #567 on: September 04, 2008, 05:11:02 am »
This 'Astros fan site' is not the place for discussions on abortion, which was entirely my point.  I would think given the 'rules' here, that a SnS Contributor (and 'Ferret Emeritus') would have the good sense to SHUT THE FUCK UP about this topic in its entirety.  However, since you appear not to, I'll show good sense and 'walk away.'

Why not? Everything else seems to be fair game. Woman's rights seems to be a major issue, given she is one and she's against them.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #568 on: September 04, 2008, 06:47:36 am »
Why not? Everything else seems to be fair game. Woman's rights seems to be a major issue, given she is one and she's against them.

It's a can of worms.

As I've been told by several Pro-Choice women friends of mine, this one particular woman's right, becomes so when a woman capable of child bearing, gets pregnant by male sperm. Also only women capable of child bearing have to deal with the choice. I was told by one such capable woman that unless one is able to become pregnant, then one has no voice in the matter. This includes the sperm donor, regardless of his degree of involvement. Also father, brother, preacher, doctor... By her determination, that would also include any woman incapable of having children--even those who might have had children or abortions but have since had a hysterectomy or other medical/physical rendering them barren. To which I disagree in terms of having a voice to influence the decision.

Ultimately it's is a decision that has to be made by one. Reluctantly, I'm pro-choice, I don't a woman to be labled a criminal for having an abortion. As a brother to an adopted sibling I realize I have a bias when I say that IMO choosing to terminate a pregnancy as a form of retroactive birth control is about the worst choice a human can make.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #569 on: September 04, 2008, 07:51:45 am »
Why not? Everything else seems to be fair game. Woman's rights seems to be a major issue, given she is one and she's against them.

i think it is one of those topics you are either pro-choice or pro-life and nothing will make you change your opinion.  And those opinions can get rather forceful when told they are wrong.

I also understand SD's friend's opinion but I don't agree with all of it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #570 on: September 04, 2008, 07:55:57 am »
I used to think things were black and white until I have worked with females who have gone through the agonizing decision and the aftermath of the decision.

BTW a great film is out on the struggle of a single female with the decision is out on video called Bella.  It won several awards at film festivals.  Check it out - you might even get brownie points with the misses because it would fall into somewhat of a chick flick category.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #571 on: September 04, 2008, 08:21:40 am »
Equal pay for equal work?  She doesnt think so. 

Ive heard this about McCain a few times.  What are we talking about here?  Is this about the lady that sued after 20+ years on the job because she found out her male peers were getting paid more all along?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #572 on: September 04, 2008, 08:35:26 am »
And Joe Biden no longer has to worry about "offending" the "little lady".  Joe, take off the gloves.

I don't recall Biden ever having gloves on.  Biden's problem is that although he's extremely knowledgable and a very able politician he too often acts the fuckwit and doesn't know when to shut up.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #573 on: September 04, 2008, 08:37:08 am »

Ultimately it's is a decision that has to be made by one. Reluctantly, I'm pro-choice, I don't a woman to be labled a criminal for having an abortion. As a brother to an adopted sibling I realize I have a bias when I say that IMO choosing to terminate a pregnancy as a form of retroactive birth control is about the worst choice a human can make.

Well said.  As an adoptee also born before R v. W I'm probably also biased, but I have tremendous difficulty reconciling how a woman must be forced to give birth under special traumatic circumstances.  It really is a can of worms.  I agree with B.G. that your friends opinion is mostly valid, but a bit too ridged.

Palin's speech was fantastic.  I've spent the past couple of days beating her up, but I love her message as it lines up with my own political leanings.  Karl Rove made an excellent point that Palin painted the Dems into a corner on criticizing small towns and their mayors, as a large percentage of America lives in small/medium size towns.  Did not escape my attention that she is very pleasant on the eyes.  Probably a sexist statement, but I'll own it.

On the topic of her criticizing Obama on community organizations:  She wasn't putting down community organizations or people that support them.  She was contrasting the difference in executive experience that a mayor/governor would have versus the leader of a community organization.

In regards to her not desiring equal pay for equal work, etc., what documentation supports this?  I've little doubt that Pravata/Limey will step up and locate dozens of links.  Please restrict them to "real news" sources as opposed to blogs, unless the blogs direct to a credible news source.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #574 on: September 04, 2008, 08:48:15 am »
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:49:46 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #575 on: September 04, 2008, 08:48:33 am »
 Karl Rove made an excellent point

only a republican would say this.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #576 on: September 04, 2008, 08:52:44 am »
I don't recall Biden ever having gloves on.  Biden's problem is that although he's extremely knowledgable and a very able politician he too often acts the fuckwit and doesn't know when to shut up.

BS. Plugs is the dumbest man in the Senate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #577 on: September 04, 2008, 08:55:45 am »
only a republican would say this.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not an absolute world. Certainly an asshole like Rove is capable of making a valid point. I think one has to be careful about the "group think" thing. It undermines the individual and free will.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #578 on: September 04, 2008, 08:57:50 am »
only a republican would say this.

Like him or not, Rove was a very successful political operative.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #579 on: September 04, 2008, 08:59:56 am »
Hopefully McCain will take the Obama route and talk about what his policies are.

What policies did Obama talk about?

Ending our dependence on oil from the Middle East in 10 years? How? More drilling? Nuclear plants? Wind farms? Solar panels?

Cutting taxes for 95 per cent of all working families? What's the cut-off? Whose taxes are going up to pay for it? How will their taxes change?

Eliminating capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups? How's that going to work? Who culls the favored companies from the unfavored companies? What's that going to do to the flow of capital in the stock market?

Tough, direct diplomacy that can prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and curb Russian aggression? What's he going to do that hasn't been tried? Iran's been refusing to deal with anyone for years on this. Is he going to talk the Russians out of Georgia?

Sounds more like a wish list than actual policies, at least in most cases.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #580 on: September 04, 2008, 09:01:29 am »
Oh, I forgot this doozie:

"Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I've laid out how I'll pay for every dime - by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don't help America grow. But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less -- because we cannot meet twenty-first century challenges with a twentieth century bureaucracy."

Good luck with that.

Next he'll tell us we can pay for universal healthcare by going paperless.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #581 on: September 04, 2008, 09:02:09 am »
Like him or not, Rove was a very successful political operative.

Rove was very successful at getting his guys elected.  Many (including myself) would argue that those he got elected didn't do a very good job with the power they were given.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #582 on: September 04, 2008, 09:03:55 am »
Oh, I forgot this doozie:

"Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I've laid out how I'll pay for every dime - by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don't help America grow. But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less -- because we cannot meet twenty-first century challenges with a twentieth century bureaucracy."

Good luck with that.

Next he'll tell us we can pay for universal healthcare by going paperless.

and keeping programs that don't work is a good idea?

there is no such thing as a paperless society.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #583 on: September 04, 2008, 09:04:00 am »
BS. Plugs is the dumbest man in the Senate.

Some guys aren't comfortable with baldness, just because Biden has ridiculous hair plugs, it doesn't mean he's not capable of making good decisions or that he's the dumbest man in the Senate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #584 on: September 04, 2008, 09:05:39 am »
Like him or not, Rove was a very successful political operative.

i didn't dispute that.  he's great at what he is paid to do.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #585 on: September 04, 2008, 09:06:23 am »
Some guys aren't comfortable with baldness, just because Biden has ridiculous hair plugs, it doesn't mean he's not capable of making good decisions or that he's the dumbest man in the Senate.

Some guys use junior high school insults and hyperbole to make their point.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #586 on: September 04, 2008, 09:06:56 am »
and keeping programs that don't work is a good idea?

there is no such thing as a paperless society.

I'm pretty sure that I'd like to see as many programs as Obama wants cut and then some. It's not the cutting of programs that I find problematic -- although this emphasizes how little time he's actually spent in Congress if he thinks it's going to be that easy. It's the notion that cutting those programs is going to pay for all the things he's looking to spend money on. Bush presided over a GOP Congress that was a mob of drunken sailors at the spending tap. I can't imagine Obama with large Democratic majorities in Congress is going to be a significant improvement.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #587 on: September 04, 2008, 09:10:15 am »
I'm pretty sure that I'd like to see as many programs as Obama wants cut and then some. It's not the cutting of programs that I find problematic -- although this emphasizes how little time he's actually spent in Congress if he thinks it's going to be that easy. It's the notion that cutting those programs is going to pay for all the things he's looking to spend money on. Bush presided over a GOP Congress that was a mob of drunken sailors at the spending tap. I can't imagine Obama with large Democratic majorities in Congress is going to be a significant improvement.

But an improvement it could be. 

And McCain is going to mention some of his policy changes tonight, but I doubt he will get into the details.  That is what debates and research is supposed to do.  The DNC and RNC are cheerleader camps, imo, to get everyone ready for putting the American people into their partisan camps for the next four years.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #588 on: September 04, 2008, 09:11:55 am »
Some guys aren't comfortable with baldness, just because Biden has ridiculous hair plugs, it doesn't mean he's not capable of making good decisions or that he's the dumbest man in the Senate.

When I lived in DC and had plenty of friends who worked and lived on the Hill, it was real well known that Joe Biden wasn't very bright. Baldness, or one's dislike of it (as a bald guy, I can't profess to be in love with it), has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #589 on: September 04, 2008, 09:12:20 am »
Some guys use junior high school insults and hyperbole to make their point.

We look for a behavior, no matter how obtuse, to support our conclusion.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #590 on: September 04, 2008, 09:14:02 am »
When I lived in DC and had plenty of friends who worked and lived on the Hill, it was real well known that Joe Biden wasn't very bright. Baldness, or one's dislike of it (as a bald guy, I can't profess to be in love with it), has nothing to do with it.

some bald guys are hot and i'll stop right there.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #591 on: September 04, 2008, 09:15:10 am »
Some guys use junior high school insults and hyperbole to make their point.

Poppycock. Joe Biden even knows that he's not real smart, and that's why one of first comments after being selected was that his IQ was higher. I look forward to the Veep debates. They'll protect both of them as well as they can, but I bet that they're more worried about Biden making a gaffe.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #592 on: September 04, 2008, 09:15:17 am »
Why not? Everything else seems to be fair game. Woman's rights seems to be a major issue, given she is one and she's against them.

It's not just women's rights. That baby with her family up there last night had just a 1 in 5 chance of being born because he's got a disability. We've got a stack of laws 10 feet high pervading every aspect of life in this country to protect and accommodate disabled people. But if you simply choose to terminate a baby before he's born because he's got a disability, as happens with 4 of 5 babies with Down syndrome, that's OK.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #593 on: September 04, 2008, 09:16:13 am »
some bald guys are hot and i'll stop right there.

Brad Ausmus wears a rug?

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #594 on: September 04, 2008, 09:17:53 am »
But an improvement it could be. 


The last time we had a Democratic President and Democratically controlled House and Senate, it took just 2 years for voters to remove the Democratic party from power in both houses of Congress.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #595 on: September 04, 2008, 09:18:21 am »
When I lived in DC and had plenty of friends who worked and lived on the Hill, it was real well known that Joe Biden wasn't very bright. Baldness, or one's dislike of it (as a bald guy, I can't profess to be in love with it), has nothing to do with it.

As a fellow bald guy I have no problem with it.  And neither does my wife.
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chuck

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #596 on: September 04, 2008, 09:20:00 am »
The last time we had a Democratic President and Democratically controlled House and Senate, it took just 2 years for voters to remove the Democratic party from power in both houses of Congress.

I expect we'll see precisely the same thing two years from now.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #597 on: September 04, 2008, 09:21:16 am »
I expect we'll see precisely the same thing two years from now.

It might be a little tougher in 2010 than it was in 1994 since the GOP shit the bed so badly the last time around.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #598 on: September 04, 2008, 09:21:46 am »
I expect we'll see precisely the same thing two years from now.

I don't think that's the kind of change Obama's seeking.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #599 on: September 04, 2008, 09:22:38 am »
As a fellow bald guy I have no problem with it.  And neither does my wife.

I can't say that I have a problem with it either, after over 20 years. But the process of going bald sucked for me. I wish that I could have gone hairless overnight. The torture of watching your hairline recede was just that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #600 on: September 04, 2008, 09:24:00 am »
Eliminating capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups? How's that going to work? Who culls the favored companies from the unfavored companies? What's that going to do to the flow of capital in the stock market?

How many small companies actually pay capital gains taxes?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #601 on: September 04, 2008, 09:24:47 am »
I thought the baldness was as a result of treatment and surgery he had to remove a brain tumor.  I think I'd investigate hair plugs too if I'd had that sort of problem.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #602 on: September 04, 2008, 09:25:34 am »
How many small companies actually pay capital gains taxes?

It's not the businesses paying the taxes, it's the owners upon sale. Raising the capital gains taxes reduces the incentive for entrepreneurship.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #603 on: September 04, 2008, 09:25:57 am »
It might be a little tougher in 2010 than it was in 1994 since the GOP shit the bed so badly the last time around.

A VERY liberal Political Science professor friend of mine told me back in 04 that the voters tend, rather strongly, to prefer the Executive branch and Legislative branch to be controlled by different parties.

Congress's approval ratings are worse than Bush's.  If they fuckup their work, the voters will send them packing.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #604 on: September 04, 2008, 09:29:03 am »
In regards to her not desiring equal pay for equal work, etc., what documentation supports this?  I've little doubt that Pravata/Limey will step up and locate dozens of links.  Please restrict them to "real news" sources as opposed to blogs, unless the blogs direct to a credible news source.

What I have heard is that this isn't an accusation against Palin, it's against McCain.  Apparently he voted against a bill that would require equal pay for equal work by women.  What, when, where or how hasn't been elaborated upon.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #605 on: September 04, 2008, 09:31:31 am »
i didn't dispute that.  he's great at what he is paid to do.

So maybe when he speaks of a campaigning issue, it might be worth listening to.  but then what does he know about what it takes to get someone elected?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #606 on: September 04, 2008, 09:32:57 am »
It's not the businesses paying the taxes, it's the owners upon sale. Raising the capital gains taxes reduces the incentive for entrepreneurship.

Sale of what?  Stocks, bonds, real estate?  How many small businesses will this actually affect?  I must be missing the point, because it seems to me the majority of small businesses produce services that don't fall under these catagories.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #607 on: September 04, 2008, 09:33:09 am »
I stared slowly losing my hair when I hit 20, it's been a slow gradual recession across the top of my head. I'm down to a hundred or less on top, I don't know really, 'cause I've been rockin' a #1 crew cut for the past 16 years or so. Larry David is Bald. Warning may be offensive.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #608 on: September 04, 2008, 09:33:59 am »
Reluctantly, I'm pro-choice, I don't a woman to be labled a criminal for having an abortion.

It's not so much the women who are labelled criminals as it is the women who die or are seriously injured when they are forced into the back alleys. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #609 on: September 04, 2008, 09:35:07 am »
Maybe, maybe not. It's not an absolute world. Certainly an asshole like Rove is capable of making a valid point. I think one has to be careful about the "group think" thing. It undermines the individual and free will.

Rove says what's expedient to his purpose, which means that everything he says is suspect.  Last night The Daily Show played a clip of him praising Palin's service as a small town mayor and then small (population) State governor, followed by a clip from a a few weeks ago when he panned Democratic VP possible Tim Kaine for having only been a mayor of a small town and governor small State.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #610 on: September 04, 2008, 09:35:38 am »
What policies did Obama talk about?

Cutting taxes for 95 per cent of all working families? What's the cut-off? Whose taxes are going up to pay for it? How will their taxes change?

The cut-off, as he has stated many,many times for anyone willing to listen, is $250,000 taxable income.  For those above that mark, marginal rates will return to pre-2001 levels (i.e., 39.6% instead of 35%).

Quote
Eliminating capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups? How's that going to work? Who culls the favored companies from the unfavored companies? What's that going to do to the flow of capital in the stock market?

Favored vs. unfavored?  You write in either a company life (i.e., first 5 years) or income test.  It's not hard.  And given that capital flowed freely in the 90's, when the LTCG rate stood at first 28%, then 20% - which, by the way, he has proposed as the cap to which he would consider raising the LTCG rate - I don't think you're likely to see a market meltdown.

The specifics are there, but as I said, you have to be willing to listen.

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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #611 on: September 04, 2008, 09:36:08 am »
Sounds more like a wish list than actual policies, at least in most cases.

Sounds like an awful lot of Palin's speech.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #612 on: September 04, 2008, 09:37:17 am »
i didn't dispute that.  he's great at what he is paid to do.

Except in '06 when he coughed up the House and the Senate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #613 on: September 04, 2008, 09:38:28 am »
Except in '06 when he coughed up the House and the Senate.

I think it was almost a victory for the GOP that they didn't give up the supermajority in the Senate, as badly as they'd shit the bed, to borrow an earlier phrase.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #614 on: September 04, 2008, 09:38:59 am »
What I have heard is that this isn't an accusation against Palin, it's against McCain.  Apparently he voted against a bill that would require equal pay for equal work by women.  What, when, where or how hasn't been elaborated upon.

In my mind those questions are critical because most bills contain unrelated issues that elected officials object to and often vote against because of.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #615 on: September 04, 2008, 09:39:24 am »
The last time we had a Democratic President and Democratically controlled House and Senate, it took just 2 years for voters to remove the Democratic party from power in both houses of Congress.

When the situation was reversed, it took 6.  One party control is usually a bad thing.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #616 on: September 04, 2008, 09:39:30 am »
By the way - if Palin's "experience" as a mayor counts because it is executive work, but the Senate does not because it is legislative, then how exactly is McCain more experienced than Obama?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #617 on: September 04, 2008, 09:39:39 am »
Karl Rove made an excellent point that Palin painted the Dems into a corner on criticizing small towns and their mayors, as a large percentage of America lives in small/medium size towns.

Watch at least the first minute and 11 seconds of this.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #618 on: September 04, 2008, 09:40:03 am »
Sale of what?  Stocks, bonds, real estate?  How many small businesses will this actually affect?  I must be missing the point, because it seems to me the majority of small businesses produce services that don't fall under these catagories.

Sorry - sell the business itself. That's the typical path for most small entrepreneurs (build a business and sell it).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #619 on: September 04, 2008, 09:41:23 am »
Sorry - sell the business itself. That's the typical path for most small entrepreneurs (build a business and sell it).

So you really think that many people are going to say, "I was going to start this business, but the taxes I may pay in 5 years just went up 5%, so fuck it"?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #620 on: September 04, 2008, 09:42:20 am »
It's not the businesses paying the taxes, it's the owners upon sale. Raising the capital gains taxes reduces the incentive for entrepreneurship.

Right.  They'd rather give up and make nothing, instead of getting 65% of something.

I think you have a very low opinion of entrepreneurs.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #621 on: September 04, 2008, 09:43:43 am »
When the situation was reversed, it took 6.  One party control is usually a bad thing.

Right.  See my comment closer to the top of page 31.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #622 on: September 04, 2008, 09:44:36 am »
So you really think that many people are going to say, "I was going to start this business, but the taxes I may pay in 5 years just went up 5%, so fuck it"?

I just explained how capital gains taxes affect small businesses and entrepreneurship. I honestly don't know anything about the details of Obama's tax plan, but I do believe there's some tax rate at which it becomes less attractive to take the risk to start a small business.

There's also a larger issue about how it will affect which capital markets investments flow into (for example, do I invest in stocks or bonds and why) that potentially has serious implications. I am the furthest thing from a macroeconomist so I have no informed opinion on what the optimal capital gains rate (or appropriate discount from ordinary income if any).

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #623 on: September 04, 2008, 09:45:49 am »
I think it was almost a victory for the GOP that they didn't give up the supermajority in the Senate, as badly as they'd shit the bed, to borrow an earlier phrase.

Actually, given the make-up of the 1/3rd of Senate seats up for grabs in '06, it was a major swing for control to shift across the aisle.  In '08, 2/3rds of the 1/3rd of Senate seats up for grabs are Republican.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #624 on: September 04, 2008, 09:46:17 am »
Just to clarify - I don't really like either candidate, so don't take anything I say as intended to support one over the other.
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« Reply #625 on: September 04, 2008, 09:47:11 am »
It might be a little tougher in 2010 than it was in 1994 since the GOP shit the bed so badly the last time around.

I can't see that being a factor at all. I do not for a minute think that Democrats are any less stupid than Republicans are. A little less snake-handling, a little less jingo, sure. But give those fuckers two years with a Democratic President and god knows what kind of idiocy those slapdicks will deliver upon us all. Obama will spend two years mending fences globally while at home congress will be dreaming up incredible ways to spend money that does not exist. That bridge to nowhere will look quaint by 2010.

My only consolation is that maybe the new administration will act like science is, you know, scientific, and that when the next SC Justice kicks off perhaps they can find someone who'll abstain from the Scalia circle jerks.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #626 on: September 04, 2008, 09:47:21 am »
In my mind those questions are critical because most bills contain unrelated issues that elected officials object to and often vote against because of.

Right.  HHence my equivocation.  I have no idea what other elements were in that bill that may have caused McCain's "no" vote.  I would ask that the same consideration be given to all candidates when accused of voting against something.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #627 on: September 04, 2008, 09:48:09 am »
Actually, given the make-up of the 1/3rd of Senate seats up for grabs in '06, it was a major swing for control to shift across the aisle.  In '08, 2/3rds of the 1/3rd of Senate seats up for grabs are Republican.

I think you'd have to look at each of those states specifically to see how much room for change there is.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #628 on: September 04, 2008, 09:48:54 am »
So you really think that many people are going to say, "I was going to start this business, but the taxes I may pay in 5 years just went up 5%, so fuck it"?
The issue is not so much the entrepreneurs themselves as the VC's and other sources of external funding that are almost always required (typically in multiple rounds of fund raising) to fuel corporate development and growth.  These guys make large, high-risk bets and consider a lot of options for how to earn the best after tax return on their gobs of cash.  And yes, they will factor the tax rate ionto their investment decisions which will affect both the amount of capital available in this regard as well as the cost ot the small businesses who need that capital.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #629 on: September 04, 2008, 09:49:02 am »
I honestly don't know anything about the details of Obama's tax plan

Shoot first, ask questions later.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #630 on: September 04, 2008, 09:49:40 am »
Brad Ausmus wears a rug?

no, but he'd be hot if he did.
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« Reply #631 on: September 04, 2008, 09:50:46 am »

My only consolation is that maybe the new administration will act like science is, you know, scientific, and that when the next SC Justice kicks off perhaps they can find someone who'll abstain from the Scalia circle jerks.

So ... does a SC Justice have the freedom to vote "present" on a ruling?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #632 on: September 04, 2008, 09:51:04 am »
Shoot first, ask questions later.

I didn't say anything pro or con Obama in my post.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #633 on: September 04, 2008, 09:51:09 am »
I think you'd have to look at each of those states specifically to see how much room for change there is.

Many Republican Senators have opted not to run for re-election this time around.  There are a lot of Republican seats "in play".
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #634 on: September 04, 2008, 09:51:48 am »
Obama will spend two years mending fences globally while at home congress will be dreaming up incredible ways to spend money that does not exist.

As opposed to spending six years pissing off everyone else in the world while dreaming up wars to spend money that does not exist.
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« Reply #635 on: September 04, 2008, 09:52:52 am »
I don't think that's the kind of change Obama's seeking.

I don't think that is the kind of change any President would be seeking.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #636 on: September 04, 2008, 09:53:18 am »
I didn't say anything pro or con Obama in my post.

I didn't accuse of same in my post.  I accused you of commenting on something that you admitted to knowing nothing about
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« Reply #637 on: September 04, 2008, 09:55:18 am »
Many Republican Senators have opted not to run for re-election this time around.  There are a lot of Republican seats "in play".

I meant you'd have to look at who's running and whether in any state one party had significant control of that state.
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« Reply #638 on: September 04, 2008, 09:55:39 am »
So ... does a SC Justice have the freedom to vote "present" on a ruling?

You have to actually be there to vote "present".
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #639 on: September 04, 2008, 09:55:49 am »
I didn't accuse of same in my post.  I accused you of commenting on something that you admitted to knowing nothing about

I explained how capital gains taxes affected small business. That is completely unrelated to anything to do with Obama's policy (which is what I admitted knowing nothing about).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #640 on: September 04, 2008, 09:56:01 am »
So maybe when he speaks of a campaigning issue, it might be worth listening to.  but then what does he know about what it takes to get someone elected?

i did listen to it.  i just don't like who he got elected.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #641 on: September 04, 2008, 09:57:01 am »
As opposed to spending six years pissing off everyone else in the world while dreaming up wars to spend money that does not exist.

Oh, and running up record budget deficits and record national debt, even if you don't count the cost of the war.

Palin accused Obama of promising to increase government and increase taxes, i.e. tax and spend liberal.  In actuality, the Bush administration has grown government to its largest size ever, while cutting taxes.  He simply borrowed the difference with no plan to pay it back.  I'll take "tax and spend" over "borrow and spend" any day.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #642 on: September 04, 2008, 10:05:21 am »
Watch at least the first minute and 11 seconds of this.

Best to watch the whole thing.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #643 on: September 04, 2008, 10:06:27 am »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #644 on: September 04, 2008, 10:08:58 am »
You have to actually be there to vote "present".

True enough.  And from that link, it looks like Tim Johnson would also be a candidate if not for the unfortunate and quite valid excuse he has.  So let's disqualify him from the competition, and you have McCain, Obama, Clinton & Biden leading the way.  If you add Obama's 130 votes of "present", he edges out McCain (420-409) in the all-important delinquency department.  But of course, we do not hvae data on other candidate's 'present' votes.

I say, a pox on both their houses.  Vote third party.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #645 on: September 04, 2008, 10:09:47 am »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #646 on: September 04, 2008, 10:12:05 am »
The issue is not so much the entrepreneurs themselves as the VC's and other sources of external funding that are almost always required (typically in multiple rounds of fund raising) to fuel corporate development and growth.  These guys make large, high-risk bets and consider a lot of options for how to earn the best after tax return on their gobs of cash.  And yes, they will factor the tax rate ionto their investment decisions which will affect both the amount of capital available in this regard as well as the cost ot the small businesses who need that capital.

I see now.  Apparently what I consider a "small business" isn't the accepted definition of the term.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #647 on: September 04, 2008, 10:13:01 am »
Oh, and running up record budget deficits and record national debt, even if you don't count the cost of the war.

Palin accused Obama of promising to increase government and increase taxes, i.e. tax and spend liberal.  In actuality, the Bush administration has grown government to its largest size ever, while cutting taxes.  He simply borrowed the difference with no plan to pay it back.  I'll take "tax and spend" over "borrow and spend" any day.

Actually, she accused *Washington* on that point, not merely Obama.  her message was that Obama would bring "more of the same" kind of fiscal irresponsibility that has characterized Washington for most or all of the past 20 years.  Bush I and Clinton were still reaping what had been sown earlier, so it was less obvious than with Bush II.  

And on a separate note, I'd consider moving to Alaska if the AIC ever successfully exercised its secession rights and then elected Palin pope or king or whathaveyou.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #648 on: September 04, 2008, 10:13:41 am »
True enough.  And from that link, it looks like Tim Johnson would also be a candidate if not for the unfortunate and quite valid excuse he has.  So let's disqualify him from the competition, and you have McCain, Obama, Clinton & Biden leading the way.  If you add Obama's 130 votes of "present", he edges out McCain (420-409) in the all-important delinquency department.  But of course, we do not hvae data on other candidate's 'present' votes.

I say, a pox on both their houses.  Vote third party.

The "present" votes were in the Illinois state senate, not the US Senate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #649 on: September 04, 2008, 10:14:38 am »
The "present" votes were in the Illinois state senate, not the US Senate.

Ready, fire, aim.

mea maxima culpa.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #650 on: September 04, 2008, 10:17:00 am »
Ready, fire, aim.

mea maxima culpa.

More on present votes:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/707/present-votes-illinois

There may be something better and more in depth, but this is what the google turned up for me.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #651 on: September 04, 2008, 10:20:07 am »
More on present votes:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/707/present-votes-illinois

There may be something better and more in depth, but this is what the google turned up for me.

"Voters don't trust details.  They trust headlines."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #652 on: September 04, 2008, 10:26:06 am »
You have to actually be there to vote "present".

Wow.  Looking at the voted with party totals, is it that Senate Republicans are mostly centrists or Senate Democrats have no intention of working with Republicans or both?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #653 on: September 04, 2008, 10:29:25 am »
Wow.  Looking at the voted with party totals, is it that Senate Republicans are mostly centrists or Senate Democrats have no intention of working with Republicans or both?

The minority party is more likely to release its members to "vote their conscience" when they see they cannot defeat a bill.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #654 on: September 04, 2008, 10:40:26 am »
Sale of what?  Stocks, bonds, real estate?  How many small businesses will this actually affect?  I must be missing the point, because it seems to me the majority of small businesses produce services that don't fall under these catagories.

I read it to mean that investors will pay no taxes on capital gains from the sale of securities in favored businesses, i.e., "the small businesses and the start-ups that will create the high-wage, high-tech jobs of tomorrow."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #655 on: September 04, 2008, 10:42:53 am »
RoveObama says what's expedient to his purpose, which means that everything he says is suspect.

FIFY.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #656 on: September 04, 2008, 10:44:55 am »
Actually, she accused *Washington* on that point, not merely Obama.  her message was that Obama would bring "more of the same" kind of fiscal irresponsibility that has characterized Washington for most or all of the past 20 years.  Bush I and Clinton were still reaping what had been sown earlier, so it was less obvious than with Bush II.

She also glossed over the fact that the fiscal responsibility had, for the 12 years up to the 2006 turnaround, been at the hands of a Republican Congress, which included her running mate (and Obama's) for that entire time.  It's very dangerous ground for anyone to tread.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #657 on: September 04, 2008, 10:45:33 am »
The minority party is more likely to release its members to "vote their conscience" when they see they cannot defeat a bill.

To that end, if you look at the 109th Congress, you'll see the Republicans and Dems about even and in the 108th the Republicans higher (91.8%)
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #658 on: September 04, 2008, 10:46:35 am »
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #659 on: September 04, 2008, 10:47:14 am »
RoveObama Pretty much everyone involved in politics today says what's expedient to his purpose, which means that everything he says is suspect should be questioned.

Let's try that one again.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #660 on: September 04, 2008, 10:49:33 am »
FIFY.

I'll gladly welcome a flip-flopping comparison between these two candidates.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #661 on: September 04, 2008, 10:50:23 am »
The cut-off, as he has stated many, many times for anyone willing to listen, is $250,000 taxable income. For those above that mark, marginal rates will return to pre-2001 levels (i.e., 39.6% instead of 35%).

He didn't say that in the speech. And my understanding is that raising the marginal federal income tax rate on filers with more than $250,000 in taxable income is not the only tax change he's proposing.

Quote
Favored vs. unfavored?  You write in either a company life (i.e., first 5 years) or income test.  It's not hard.  And given that capital flowed freely in the 90's, when the LTCG rate stood at first 28%, then 20% - which, by the way, he has proposed as the cap to which he would consider raising the LTCG rate - I don't think you're likely to see a market meltdown.

I'm not talking about a capital meltdown. I'm talking about the allocation of capital between one investment or another. If you're setting different capital gains rates between them, you're directing capital flows. Who picks the winners and losers?

Quote
The specifics are there, but as I said, you have to be willing to listen.

I listened to the whole speech. I didn't hear any of that.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #662 on: September 04, 2008, 10:51:43 am »
I'll gladly welcome a flip-flopping comparison between these two candidates.

There's plenty of ammunition on both sides, to be sure. Karl Rove (who isn't actually running for office) isn't the only one whose words vary day to day.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #663 on: September 04, 2008, 10:54:04 am »
Sounds like an awful lot of Palin's speech.

The purpose of the vice presidential candidate's speech is a bit different from the purpose of the presidential candidate's speech, isn't it?

McCain's speech may be lacking on details when he talks tonight, which if so will be disappointing. But that's the one you need to compare Obama's speech to.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #664 on: September 04, 2008, 10:55:43 am »
I think it was almost a victory for the GOP that they didn't give up the supermajority in the Senate, as badly as they'd shit the bed, to borrow an earlier phrase.

Concur. They're going to be lucky if that doesn't happen to them this time around.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #665 on: September 04, 2008, 10:56:42 am »
He didn't say that in the speech. And my understanding is that raising the marginal federal income tax rate on filers with more than $250,000 in taxable income is not the only tax change he's proposing.

No, he's also proposed reinstating the 6.2% payroll tax for earnings above $250K, treating carried interests as ordinary income rather than capital gains (which I disagree with), closing corporate tax loopholes (which is absolutely appropriate as long as it's accompanied by a cut in corporate rate), etc.

And if you think an acceptance speech is going to be the forum for such details... well, let's just say I don't think there will be a great dissection of tax policy tonight.

Quote
I'm not talking about a capital meltdown. I'm talking about the allocation of capital between one investment or another. If you're setting different capital gains rates between them, you're directing capital flows. Who picks the winners and losers?

Congress and the IRS, just as it has been since 1913.

Quote
I listened to the whole speech. I didn't hear any of that.

It takes about 0.25 seconds on Google.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #666 on: September 04, 2008, 10:59:40 am »
He didn't say that in the speech. And my understanding is that raising the marginal federal income tax rate on filers with more than $250,000 in taxable income is not the only tax change he's proposing.

CNN has a crack at decoding the rhetoric.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #667 on: September 04, 2008, 11:01:13 am »
You are reply 666.  Ergo, Limey is the devil.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #668 on: September 04, 2008, 11:01:32 am »
CNN has a crack at decoding the rhetoric.

lol, i always laugh at post 666.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #669 on: September 04, 2008, 11:03:11 am »
So you really think that many people are going to say, "I was going to start this business, but the taxes I may pay in 5 years just went up 5%, so fuck it"?

No. But you know (or should know) that people will structure their investments in accordance with the new rules, which will have effects (and unintended consequences) on how the capital flows.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 11:18:52 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #670 on: September 04, 2008, 11:04:24 am »
No. But you know (or should no) that people will structure their investments in accordance with the new rules, which will have effects (and unintended consequences) on how the capital flows.

Always.  But if the intended consequence is to flow greater capital to new businesses (as would be the case if they are to receive a more favorable LTCG rate), then I'm fine with that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #671 on: September 04, 2008, 11:07:21 am »
Right.  HHence my equivocation.  I have no idea what other elements were in that bill that may have caused McCain's "no" vote.  I would ask that the same consideration be given to all candidates when accused of voting against something.

For example, voting against something that says this?

"A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law."

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #672 on: September 04, 2008, 11:08:26 am »
I think you'd have to look at each of those states specifically to see how much room for change there is.

If the GOP is more exposed in seats up for reelection in 2008, and the Democrats pick up even more seats, that means that the Democrats will be similarly exposed in 2010 or 2012.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #673 on: September 04, 2008, 11:09:02 am »
For example, voting against something that says this?

"A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law."


I hope that bill had plenty of defined term because that is wonderfully ambiguous sentence.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #674 on: September 04, 2008, 11:10:10 am »
As opposed to spending six years pissing off everyone else in the world while dreaming up wars to spend money that does not exist.

Last time I checked, members of both parties in Congress voted in favor of those dreamt-up wars.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #675 on: September 04, 2008, 11:10:38 am »
Back to Palin's speech: the AP does a fact check.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #676 on: September 04, 2008, 11:11:07 am »
For example, voting against something that says this?

"A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law."


Exactly.  Without context, this is meaningless.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #677 on: September 04, 2008, 11:13:02 am »
Wow.  Looking at the voted with party totals, is it that Senate Republicans are mostly centrists or Senate Democrats have no intention of working with Republicans or both?

Hasn't McCain sponsored and passed more bipartisan legislation than Obama has?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #678 on: September 04, 2008, 11:14:08 am »
Back to Palin's speech: the AP does a fact check.

By the way... her assertion that Obama would "raise the death tax" is a complete falsehood, no matter how you view it.  His proposal is to lock in the 2009 law, which - wait for it - is a lower tax rate than 2008 law, and lower still than the rates for 2011 and going forward.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #679 on: September 04, 2008, 11:14:26 am »
She also glossed over the fact that the fiscal responsibility had, for the 12 years up to the 2006 turnaround, been at the hands of a Republican Congress, which included her running mate (and Obama's) for that entire time.  It's very dangerous ground for anyone to tread.

I think her actions have indicated that she's not that scared of her own party.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #680 on: September 04, 2008, 11:15:00 am »
Hasn't McCain sponsored and passed more bipartisan legislation than Obama has?

He's also sponsored and passed more total legislation, which you would expect given their respective tenures.  But as Gov. Palin told us last night that the other 3 candidates have no executive experience, I'm going to ignore that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #681 on: September 04, 2008, 11:17:33 am »
Exactly.  Without context, this is meaningless.

Really? What's the context? What sophisticated Harvard Law School analysis are we missing?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #682 on: September 04, 2008, 11:18:08 am »
I think her actions have indicated that she's not that scared of her own party.

That's fine, but many of them are also up for re-election.  If she hammers the "Washington establishment" she gives ammunition to Democratic congressional hopefuls everywhere.  It's a very narrow tightrope to walk.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #683 on: September 04, 2008, 11:18:37 am »
Really? What's the context? What sophisticated Harvard Law School analysis are we missing?

Oh dear.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #684 on: September 04, 2008, 11:19:54 am »
I hope that bill had plenty of defined term because that is wonderfully ambiguous sentence.

I think this is the text, but I'm not sure if this is the version introduced in the year that Mr. Nuance voted against it.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=09300SB1082&GA=93&SessionId=3&DocTypeId=SB&LegID=3910&DocNum=1082&GAID=3&Session

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #685 on: September 04, 2008, 11:20:31 am »
Let's try that one again.

I'll buy that.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #686 on: September 04, 2008, 11:23:23 am »
Really? What's the context? What sophisticated Harvard Law School analysis are we missing?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

But then again, I'm a guy that believes that life begins at conception, and disagree with Obama completely on this anyway.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #687 on: September 04, 2008, 11:26:00 am »
Always.  But if the intended consequence is to flow greater capital to new businesses (as would be the case if they are to receive a more favorable LTCG rate), then I'm fine with that.

Let's say you'd had this kind of capital flow manipulation (and I am not denying that there are not already existing carrots and sticks out there) in the mid-'90s, where capital flows to small businesses and high-tech businesses are favored. Wouldn't that have possibly flowed even more money into precisely the investments that inflated the tech bubble that catastrophically burst? Wouldn't that have put more money into even riskier investments and resulted in even harsher losses in 2000 and 2001?

The same people who brought you Sarbanes-Oxley, who rail against misleading investors, are the same ones who want to set up a scheme that will favor more money flowing into investments that are almost certainly higher-risk. Unless you're talking about only letting hedge funds, private equity and venture capital into it, in which case you're just giving tax breaks to the rich.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #688 on: September 04, 2008, 11:31:43 am »
But then again, I'm a guy that believes that life begins at conception, and disagree with Obama completely on this anyway.

The Bible says that life begins when God breathes air into your lungs.  I think it happens somewhere between where you say it does and where God says it does, but that's just like, my opinion, man.

Also, if life begins at conception, then the practice of in vitro fertilisation is infanticide on an industrial scale.  Most of the fertilised eggs created during the process are disguarded.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #689 on: September 04, 2008, 11:31:53 am »
He's also sponsored and passed more total legislation, which you would expect given their respective tenures.  But as Gov. Palin told us last night that the other 3 candidates have no executive experience, I'm going to ignore that.

I'm not getting at experience, I'm getting at the "uniter, not a divider" theme. Hammering McCain for voting with Bush 90% of the time but then presenting yourself as a national healer is not exactly convincing coming from someone who votes along party lines almost all the time himself.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #690 on: September 04, 2008, 11:36:44 am »
I'm not getting at experience, I'm getting at the "uniter, not a divider" theme. Hammering McCain for voting with Bush 90% of the time but then presenting yourself as a national healer is not exactly convincing coming from someone who votes along party lines almost all the time himself.

It's not about accusing McCain of being partisan, it's about wrapping McCain around Bush, and about Obama being not-Bush.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #691 on: September 04, 2008, 11:36:56 am »
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

But then again, I'm a guy that believes that life begins at conception, and disagree with Obama completely on this anyway.

In the Illinois Senate, he voted against a bill virtually identical to that passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate, including the Roe protection. Even NARAL did not oppose it at the federal level. All the nuance is hyper-sophisticated elite law school gobbledygook.

We're not talking about right-wing Bible-thumping no-abortions-now-or-ever restrictions. We're talking about living, breathing babies expelled from the womb during an abortion that are left to die on tables in the hospital. Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't see any nuance that justifices his opposition on this issue.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #692 on: September 04, 2008, 11:38:48 am »
That's fine, but many of them are also up for re-election.  If she hammers the "Washington establishment" she gives ammunition to Democratic congressional hopefuls everywhere.  It's a very narrow tightrope to walk.

True. But I'm willing to live with her on that, because I think the congressional GOP's performance has largely been abomibable. You need not even ask what I think the congressional Democrats.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #693 on: September 04, 2008, 11:43:36 am »
True. But I'm willing to live with her on that, because I think the congressional GOP's performance has largely been abomibable. You need not even ask what I think the congressional Democrats.

I'll tell you what I think of Congressional Democrats: in all but a very few cases, they've blown donkey dicks.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #694 on: September 04, 2008, 11:45:52 am »
I'll tell you what I think of Congressional Democrats: in all but a very few cases, they've blown donkey dicks.

Many Republicans feel the same way about their congressmen.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #695 on: September 04, 2008, 11:47:52 am »
It's not about accusing McCain of being partisan, it's about wrapping McCain around Bush, and about Obama being not-Bush.

Wow. That picture inspires so many inappropriate caption ideas.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #696 on: September 04, 2008, 11:52:54 am »
In the Illinois Senate, he voted against a bill virtually identical to that passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate, including the Roe protection. Even NARAL did not oppose it at the federal level. All the nuance is hyper-sophisticated elite law school gobbledygook.

We're not talking about right-wing Bible-thumping no-abortions-now-or-ever restrictions. We're talking about living, breathing babies expelled from the womb during an abortion that are left to die on tables in the hospital. Maybe I'm just slow, but I don't see any nuance that justifices his opposition on this issue.

So, either the Harvard-educated Obama saw a difference in how the Illinois bill would be applied to State law as to how the Federal bill would be applied to Federal law, or he just wants to kill babies.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 11:55:32 am by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #697 on: September 04, 2008, 12:00:42 pm »
Back to Palin's speech: the AP does a fact check.

Which is pretty piss poor in its own fact checking.  The very first item is damn near wholly incorrect and makes several erroneous implications.  She had nothing to do with the Bridge to Nowhere, that was purely Senator Ted Stevens.  As is almost all of the earmarked spending for Alaska.  To implicate her for the wrongdoings and actions of someone else is considered "Fact Checking"?

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

Dear god, it gets even worse;

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation

So basically what they said was "So what she said was true, but here's some irrelevant bullshit so we can somehow implicate that this statement is incorrect"

Yes.  Fact Checking. 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:02:43 pm by tophfar »
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #698 on: September 04, 2008, 12:04:32 pm »
Which is pretty piss poor in its own fact checking.  The very first item is damn near wholly incorrect and makes several erroneous implications.  She had nothing to do with the Bridge to Nowhere, that was purely Senator Ted Stevens.  As is almost all of the earmarked spending for Alaska.  To implicate her for the wrongdoings and actions of someone else is considered "Fact Checking"?

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

Where is the fact check wrong?  I'm not challenging, I'm interested.  She says she told the Feds to take their bridge and shove it, and the fact check says she did this only after the bridge became the poster child for pork.  Those two statements are not in conflict, one simply expands on the other.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #699 on: September 04, 2008, 12:07:48 pm »
Where is the fact check wrong?  I'm not challenging, I'm interested.  She says she told the Feds to take their bridge and shove it, and the fact check says she did this only after the bridge became the poster child for pork.  Those two statements are not in conflict, one simply expands on the other.

Quote
that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

is a direct implication that she was responsible for said bridge until it was "ridiculed".  There is no mention of Ted Stevens in regards to that monstrosity, or his penchant for earmarks and pork barrel for his state.  how is that not factually incorrect?
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #700 on: September 04, 2008, 12:08:34 pm »
Dear god, it gets even worse;

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation

So basically what they said was "So what she said was true, but here's some irrelevant bullshit so we can somehow implicate that this statement is incorrect"

Yes.  Fact Checking. 

It does look silly, if you snip off the bit where the fact check goes on to explain its position.
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tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #701 on: September 04, 2008, 12:10:50 pm »
It does look silly, if you snip off the bit where the fact check goes on to explain its position.

No it looks silly period.

"expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles"

Wow.  Way to stretch out on a limb of major policy reform there.  No one would want to help intercept shipments of nuclear/biological/chemical weapons. 

And they haven't been reducing nuclear weapons stockpiles here in the US for over 20+ years now either.

That takes a visionary.

And, it's the SINGULAR example they could come up with.

There's nothing remotely close to "fact checking" about that article.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #702 on: September 04, 2008, 12:12:32 pm »
is a direct implication that she was responsible for said bridge until it was "ridiculed".  There is no mention of Ted Stevens in regards to that monstrosity, or his penchant for earmarks and pork barrel for his state.  how is that not factually incorrect?

It's not factually incorrect.  It's a nuanced response to her statement that implied she's anti-pork, whereas she isn't anti-pork at all, she just happened to have panned Stevens' bridge after it became a political stink bomb.  If you want the fact check to explain it's position in excrutiating detail, then it's more important that you ask the same of the candidate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #703 on: September 04, 2008, 12:15:42 pm »
There's nothing remotely close to "fact checking" about that article.

Take from it what you will.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #704 on: September 04, 2008, 12:16:35 pm »
It's not factually incorrect.  It's a nuanced response to her statement...

So you're telling me accusing her of Ted Stevens actions is "factually correct", just "nuanced"?  Is that your position?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #705 on: September 04, 2008, 12:19:51 pm »
It's not factually incorrect.  It's a nuanced response to her statement that implied she's anti-pork, whereas she isn't anti-pork at all, she just happened to have panned Stevens' bridge after it became a political stink bomb.

Wrong, Limey. It's worse than that.

You see, Palin is flatly lying her ass off about that bridge, and it has nothing to do with an apparent flip-flop. Here's what she said last night:

Quote
"We suspended the state fuel tax and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress, "Thanks, but no thanks," on that Bridge to Nowhere."

How was she able to tell Congress "thanks but no thanks" and that "if our state wanted to build a bridge, we were going to build it ourselves" when Congress itself killed the earmark over a year before she became governor?


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #706 on: September 04, 2008, 12:22:19 pm »
Wrong, Limey. It's worse than that.

You see, Palin is flatly lying her ass off about that bridge, and it has nothing to do with an apparent flip-flop. Here's what she said last night:

How was she able to tell Congress "thanks but no thanks" and that "if our state wanted to build a bridge, we were going to build it ourselves" when Congress itself killed the earmark over a year before she became governor?



Not only that, when she said "thanks but not thanks", what she really meant was "thanks, I'll take the money anyway".
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #707 on: September 04, 2008, 12:26:33 pm »
How was she able to tell Congress "thanks but no thanks" and that "if our state wanted to build a bridge, we were going to build it ourselves" when Congress itself killed the earmark over a year before she became governor?

Because they never deallocated the money that had been budgeted TO Alaska even after the specific earmark had been removed.  They money was still there for transportation use until a year after she had been elected when she canceled the project.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #708 on: September 04, 2008, 12:28:07 pm »
This 'Astros fan site' is not the place for discussions on abortion, which was entirely my point.  I would think given the 'rules' here, that a SnS Contributor (and 'Ferret Emeritus') would have the good sense to SHUT THE FUCK UP about this topic in its entirety.  However, since you appear not to, I'll show good sense and 'walk away.'

You brought up.  You can look this up, challenging someone is not smart.  I brought up the point because the main reason Palin was nominated is her views on choice.  You made it personal.  So yes, it was up to you to walk away.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #709 on: September 04, 2008, 12:31:03 pm »
Where is the fact check wrong?  I'm not challenging, I'm interested.  She says she told the Feds to take their bridge and shove it, and the fact check says she did this only after the bridge became the poster child for pork.  Those two statements are not in conflict, one simply expands on the other.

I realize that I'm repeating myself, but this is an important point. The statements are in conflict. She is lying about a very basic fact and getting away with it because no one's bothered to notice or raise hell about it.

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #710 on: September 04, 2008, 12:32:48 pm »
Because they never deallocated the money that had been budgeted TO Alaska even after the specific earmark had been removed.  They money was still there for transportation use until a year after she had been elected when she canceled the project.

...and returned the money?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #711 on: September 04, 2008, 12:37:15 pm »
Here's what Gov. Palin said at the time she nixed the project:

Quote
Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer. Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island. Much of the public’s attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened.

Does this really sound like a maverick reformer who told Congress to take its money and shove it? Please.



matadorph

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #712 on: September 04, 2008, 12:40:52 pm »
Because they never deallocated the money that had been budgeted TO Alaska even after the specific earmark had been removed.  They money was still there for transportation use until a year after she had been elected when she canceled the project.

I think you're missing the point. Palin had absolutely nothing to do with that earmark, yet she went on national TV and said the exact opposite, and the conservative base ate it up. What a reformer she is!

No, she's a liar.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #713 on: September 04, 2008, 12:42:14 pm »
Not only that, when she said "thanks but not thanks", what she really meant was "thanks, I'll take the money anyway".

Eggzzactly.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #714 on: September 04, 2008, 12:44:38 pm »
...and returned the money?

It was put into its general federal transportation fund just as any other state receives to use of roadwork improvements.  You can look up there how it was used, I have no idea where or for how.  

The point of it is, Ted Stevens fought for that money to be used in a specific and singular project, refused to have those funds transferred to the Gulf Coast in 2005 as a result of Katrina.  And when those funds had their earmark for that bridge removed, and transferred to where it should have been, into the general transportation fund, it stayed there, and the bridge was canceled, because they couldn't make up the $329 million shortfall of funding, because she wouldn't put federal funds into it as Ted Stevens had fought for.

To say she is lying, or is responsible for Ted Stevens actions ignores the actual "facts" of the situation.
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tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #715 on: September 04, 2008, 12:45:19 pm »
...and returned the money?

Is any state going to return transportation funds?
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tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #716 on: September 04, 2008, 12:46:27 pm »
I think you're missing the point. Palin had absolutely nothing to do with that earmark, yet she went on national TV and said the exact opposite, and the conservative base ate it up. What a reformer she is!

No, she's a liar.

No your missing the point, She was accused of having everything to do with that earmark, when in fact it was not her.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:48:23 pm by tophfar »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #717 on: September 04, 2008, 12:48:48 pm »
No your missing the point, She was accused of having everything to do with that earmark, when in fact it was not here.

She was not a member of Congress, she could not have had stevens' level of involvement, but that doesn't meet that shde didn't lobby for it, which she did.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #718 on: September 04, 2008, 12:49:18 pm »
It was put into its general federal transportation fund just as any other state receives to use of roadwork improvements.  You can look up there how it was used, I have no idea where or for how.

So, she took the money earmarked for the bridge, and spent it however the fuck she liked.  And that's somehow better?


The point of it is, Ted Stevens fought for that money to be used in a specific and singular project, refused to have those funds transferred to the Gulf Coast in 2005 as a result of Katrina.  And when those funds had their earmark for that bridge removed, and transferred to where it should have been, into the general transportation fund, it stayed there, and the bridge was canceled, because they couldn't make up the $329 million shortfall of funding, because she wouldn't put federal funds into it as Ted Stevens had fought for.

To say she is lying, or is responsible for Ted Stevens actions ignores the actual "facts" of the situation.

To say that she's being totally honest about the situation is being willfully ignorant.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #719 on: September 04, 2008, 12:50:37 pm »
Is any state going to return transportation funds?

I don't know, but I haven't heard representatives of other states take credit for refusing Federal funding, while accepting that exact same Federal funding.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #720 on: September 04, 2008, 12:50:57 pm »
No your missing the point, She was accused of having everything to do with that earmark, when in fact it was not here.

Wrong. She lobbied for the money. She was completely and totally in favor of the project, so it's a lie to paint this picture of herself as a maverick reformer. She never told Congress anything.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #721 on: September 04, 2008, 12:51:28 pm »
No your missing the point, She was accused of having everything to do with that earmark, when in fact it was not her.

That's not what was said at all.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #722 on: September 04, 2008, 12:52:51 pm »
She was not a member of Congress, she could not have had stevens' level of involvement, but that doesn't meet that shde didn't lobby for it, which she did.

There seems to be a whole lot of implication without much proof.  Show where she says "I fought for this money", or else all this hoopla about "proven/unproven", "push-polling" garbage obviously only applies to one side of this argument.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #723 on: September 04, 2008, 12:53:23 pm »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090103148.html

Quote
In February, Palin's office sent Sen. Stevens a 70-page memo outlining almost $200 million worth of new funding requests for Alaska.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #724 on: September 04, 2008, 12:55:04 pm »
That's not what was said at all.

No that's what implied by not mentioning Ted Stevens at all in regards to this Bridge to Nowhere.  But that's just "nuanced" and not a lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #725 on: September 04, 2008, 12:55:30 pm »
There seems to be a whole lot of implication without much proof.  Show where she says "I fought for this money", or else all this hoopla about "proven/unproven", "push-polling" garbage obviously only applies to one side of this argument.

same Washington Post article linked above:

Quote
In addition, Palin has reversed course on at least one major earmark: After initially supporting the $223 million bridge, which was to connect the town of Ketchikan with a remote island, she reversed course last year and canceled the project because of cost overruns. Critics have dubbed the project the "Bridge to Nowhere."
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #726 on: September 04, 2008, 12:56:51 pm »
There seems to be a whole lot of implication without much proof.  Show where she says "I fought for this money", or else all this hoopla about "proven/unproven", "push-polling" garbage obviously only applies to one side of this argument.

more detail:

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1116208&srvc=home&position=emailed
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

tophfar

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #727 on: September 04, 2008, 12:58:51 pm »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090103148.html


And amazingly enough, it mentions nothing about said bridge except that she canceled it.  And no shit, a Governor outlining requests for federal funds, and nothing specific about what she was requesting.  
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #728 on: September 04, 2008, 12:59:52 pm »
So, either the Harvard-educated Obama saw a difference in how the Illinois bill would be applied to State law as to how the Federal bill would be applied to Federal law, or he just wants to kill babies.

Or he's so extreme in his support of Roe that he didn't want to cast a vote that would in any way be construed as weakening it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:05:21 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #729 on: September 04, 2008, 01:00:40 pm »
And amazingly enough, it mentions nothing about said bridge except that she canceled it.  And no shit, a Governor outlining requests for federal funds, and nothing specific about what she was requesting.  

That article was refuting this idea that she's some maverick telling the federal government to take their money and shove it, when she's actually doing the exact opposite.  The Boston Herald article has details, including quotes, on her support for the bridge.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #730 on: September 04, 2008, 01:01:59 pm »
No that's what implied by not mentioning Ted Stevens at all in regards to this Bridge to Nowhere.  But that's just "nuanced" and not a lie.

Of course, everything else in the world is black and white, like her plain and simple assertion that she rejected the bridge in question.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #731 on: September 04, 2008, 01:03:02 pm »
more detail:

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1116208&srvc=home&position=emailed

And neither in that article does it say she lobbied for that money for that bridge.  Other than she made a campaign promise to push forward with it, and the turned to more cost effective measures.

So to still imply that she has lobbied directly for this money, is still wrong.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #732 on: September 04, 2008, 01:03:03 pm »
Or he's so extreme in his support of Roe that he didn't want to cast a vote that would anyway be construed as weakening it.

And yet he took that exact position, on advice from Planned Parenthood no less, in voting "present" on several other bills - which we have already established that he has been criticized for that to a great extent.  I have to believe that there was at least a perceived difference in this bill that led him to vote "no".

Unfortunately, there is a marked dearth of candidates who who match my own views on social issues across the board, so you do the best with what you've got.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #733 on: September 04, 2008, 01:03:51 pm »
It was put into its general federal transportation fund just as any other state receives to use of roadwork improvements.  You can look up there how it was used, I have no idea where or for how.

It was put into the general transportation fund because Congress canceled the earmark. Sarah Palin had nothing to do with that. Zilch. Nada. She wanted the money and was in favor of the project then, but now that she's been picked to be McCain's running mate she's some sort of hero who stood up to Congress and said "we don't need your stinkin money!" Riiight.

Quote
The point of it is, Ted Stevens fought for that money to be used in a specific and singular project, refused to have those funds transferred to the Gulf Coast in 2005 as a result of Katrina.  And when those funds had their earmark for that bridge removed, and transferred to where it should have been, into the general transportation fund, it stayed there, and the bridge was canceled, because they couldn't make up the $329 million shortfall of funding, because she wouldn't put federal funds into it as Ted Stevens had fought for.

To say she is lying, or is responsible for Ted Stevens actions ignores the actual "facts" of the situation.

I don't think anyone is saying she's responsible for what Ted Stevens did. That is not the issue. The issue is her lying about the role she never actually played in the termination of that earmark.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:05:48 pm by matadorph »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #734 on: September 04, 2008, 01:04:59 pm »
Or he's so extreme in his support of Roe that he didn't want to cast a vote that would anyway be construed as weakening it.

Yes.  He's an extremist for supporting a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States of America.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #735 on: September 04, 2008, 01:07:10 pm »
more detail:

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/2008/view.bg?articleid=1116208&srvc=home&position=emailed


Quote from: the Article
The Alaska governor campaigned in 2006 on a build-the-bridge platform, telling Ketchikan residents she felt their pain when politicians called them "nowhere."


She even twisted that one.  "Nowhere" was at the other end of the bridge.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #736 on: September 04, 2008, 01:07:22 pm »
Yes.  He's an extremist for supporting a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States of America.

They've been known to make poor decisions before.  That one was a whopper.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #737 on: September 04, 2008, 01:08:45 pm »
Yes.  He's an extremist for supporting a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States of America.

Roe means that infants born alive during an abortion should be left on a table to die? Where did you get that from?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #738 on: September 04, 2008, 01:09:37 pm »
I don't think anyone is saying she's responsible for what Ted Stevens did. That is not the issue. The issue is her lying about the role she never actually played in the termination of that earmark.

No, that's exactly what Limey's "fact checking" article is exactly saying.  Without saying.  In Nuance, as it were.

Quote
In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

She had nothing to do with it, until it was canceled.  It was already being built when she ran for Governor.  There were no funds.  So she canceled it.  To imply that opposition only came later because of ridicule, and not exploding costs (original estimates went from 223 mil, to 400 mil) and a shortfall of funding, implies that she had something to do with it at the beginning.  Which she didnt.

What was this called earlier?  Push-polling I believe was the pejorative thrown around here for a while.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #739 on: September 04, 2008, 01:10:54 pm »
They've been known to make poor decisions before.  That one was a whopper.

I can think of a bad one in 2000.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #740 on: September 04, 2008, 01:11:29 pm »
They've been known to make poor decisions before.  That one was a whopper.

And it has nothing to do with the legislation at hand. I find it hard to believe that even the justices who decided Roe would find that legislation unconstitutional. What Obama and others feared was that the legislation would lead to a slippery slope of other laws that would purport to overturn Roe. But then the disclaimer was added and Obama voted against it anway.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #741 on: September 04, 2008, 01:11:57 pm »
I can think of a bad one in 2000.

Take your feelings about that, multiply x1000, and you'll start to understand the feelings of about 30% of the electorate.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #742 on: September 04, 2008, 01:12:03 pm »
Roe means that infants born alive during an abortion should be left on a table to die? Where did you get that from?

When did I say that?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #743 on: September 04, 2008, 01:12:22 pm »
And amazingly enough, it mentions nothing about said bridge except that she canceled it.  And no shit, a Governor outlining requests for federal funds, and nothing specific about what she was requesting.   

If she's such a fiscal do-gooder, if she was so against the bridge and the federal funding required to build it, explain the following quote:

"Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island."

She. wanted. the. money.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #744 on: September 04, 2008, 01:12:58 pm »
No, that's exactly what Limey's "fact checking" article is exactly saying.  Without saying.  In Nuance, as it were.

She had nothing to do with it, until it was canceled.  It was already being built when she ran for Governor.  There were no funds.  So she canceled it.  To imply that opposition only came later because of ridicule, and not exploding costs (original estimates went from 223 mil, to 400 mil) and a shortfall of funding, implies that she had something to do with it at the beginning.  Which she didnt.

What was this called earlier?  Push-polling I believe was the pejorative thrown around here for a while.

Somebody needs to go revise the Wikipedia article to reflect that the applicability of push-polling is highly dependent on who the target is.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #745 on: September 04, 2008, 01:17:28 pm »
And it has nothing to do with the legislation at hand. I find it hard to believe that even the justices who decided Roe would find that legislation unconstitutional.  What Obama and others feared was that the legislation would lead to a slippery slope of other laws that would purport to overturn Roe. But then the disclaimer was added and Obama voted against it anway.

The world would be a much better place if you would let other people share your access to the minds of every person in it, living or dead.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:19:12 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #746 on: September 04, 2008, 01:18:50 pm »
No, that's exactly what Limey's "fact checking" article is exactly saying.  Without saying.  In Nuance, as it were.

She had nothing to do with it, until it was canceled.  It was already being built when she ran for Governor.  There were no funds.  So she canceled it.  To imply that opposition only came later because of ridicule, and not exploding costs (original estimates went from 223 mil, to 400 mil) and a shortfall of funding, implies that she had something to do with it at the beginning.  Which she didnt.

What was this called earlier?  Push-polling I believe was the pejorative thrown around here for a while.

This is what the AP article says:

Quote
THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

As has been pointed out in multiple place and in multiple quotes, she was all about building this bridge.  All.  Over.  It.  Then when its budget continued to grow and pretty much everyone outside of her and Ted Stevens said "you know, this is a bad idea" and decided not to spend more money on it, she cancelled it and spent the money elsewhere.

This is hardly saying "thanks, but no thanks"
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #747 on: September 04, 2008, 01:21:00 pm »
Somebody needs to go revise the Wikipedia article to reflect that the applicability of push-polling everything is highly dependent on who the target is.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #748 on: September 04, 2008, 01:22:09 pm »
When did I say that?

I suggested that he opposed the legislation because he's so extreme in his support of Roe.

You sarcastically replied, yes, he's an extremist for supporting Roe.

Doesn't that mean that you agree with his opposition to the legislation because he claims it would undermine Roe?

And for that to be the case, doesn't that mean that you agree that the legislation would, in fact, undermine Roe?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #749 on: September 04, 2008, 01:22:23 pm »
She. wanted. the. money.

The quote means exactly what it says.  The congressional delegation (Stevens) tried hard to keep it specifically for the bridge.  Congress didnt care about the bridge.  She had the money in the general transportation funds, decided that the bridge was a waste of it, and used it elsewhere.  She had made a campaign promise about the bridge, she couched the phrase in a way to not piss off the town more than they already probably were going to be.

If she had wanted to allocate that money to that bridge she could have.  But she didn't.  

The article still is a lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #750 on: September 04, 2008, 01:23:29 pm »
The quote means exactly what it says.  The congressional delegation (Stevens) tried hard to keep it specifically for the bridge.  Congress didnt care about the bridge.  She had made a campaign promise about the bridge.  She had the money in the general transportation funds, decided that the bridge was a waste of it, and used it elsewhere.

If she had wanted to allocate that money to that bridge she could have.  But she didn't.  

The article still is a lie.

Please point out the part of the article, relating to the bridge, that is a lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #751 on: September 04, 2008, 01:25:03 pm »
Please point out the part of the article, relating to the bridge, that is a lie.

Nuance. 

The cake, it is a lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #752 on: September 04, 2008, 01:25:34 pm »

She had nothing to do with it, until it was canceled.  It was already being built when she ran for Governor.  There were no funds.  So she canceled it.

It's pretty obvious that the only reason she nixed the bridge project was not because she didn't want federal funding to pay for it (as the Republicans are trying to convince the public) but because Congress wouldn't actually give her the money she wanted. Duh.

She wasn't telling Congress shit about that bridge. On the contrary, Congress told her.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #753 on: September 04, 2008, 01:25:44 pm »
Nuance. 

The cake, it is a lie.

WTF is that supposed to mean?  You said the article is a lie.  Please point out that section that is a lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #754 on: September 04, 2008, 01:26:56 pm »
If she's such a fiscal do-gooder, if she was so against the bridge and the federal funding required to build it, explain the following quote:

"Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island."


Seriously, it looks like she tried to keep blame off of herself, show that she cares about those people in that area, and explain the fact that no one really wants to pay for this thing. Now, she could have pissed them off by saying, "Look, you idiots, no one wants to keep spending money on this silly project for you backwoods rubes," but it the way she said it could be taken either way.

Or, as a dad, I could say, "Yes, son, despite my best efforts, we are about $3k short of that big screen TV entertainment center you want in your room, and it is clear that my company has little interest in spending any more money on your special hidey-hole-from-the-troubles-of-the-world."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #755 on: September 04, 2008, 01:27:57 pm »
It's pretty obvious that the only reason she nixed the bridge project was not because she didn't want federal funding to pay for it (as the Republicans are trying to convince the public) but because Congress wouldn't actually give her the money she wanted. Duh.

SHE STILL HAD THE MONEY.

The money never left.

It simply could now be used elsewhere and not specifically on the bridge.  If she had wanted to, she could have applied it to the bridge.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #756 on: September 04, 2008, 01:29:18 pm »
Seriously, it looks like she tried to keep blame off of herself, show that she cares about those people in that area, and explain the fact that no one really wants to pay for this thing. Now, she could have pissed them off by saying, "Look, you idiots, no one wants to keep spending money on this silly project for you backwoods rubes," but it the way she said it could be taken either way.

Or, as a dad, I could say, "Yes, son, despite my best efforts, we are about $3k short of that big screen TV entertainment center you want in your room, and it is clear that my company has little interest in spending any more money on your special hidey-hole-from-the-troubles-of-the-world."

And that would be fine, unless of course, you spent what money you did get on a new DVD player went on national TV and said "I wouldn't buy that TV even though they gave me the money.  I told them no thanks."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #757 on: September 04, 2008, 01:29:44 pm »
The world would be a much better place if you would let other people share your access to the minds of every person in it, living or dead.

You have the same access as I do or anyone else does to read what they wrote. Based on what they wrote in those opinions and in subsequent opinions, there is little if anything to indicate that they would have found the legislation in question, the legislation that Obama opposed, to be a constitutional violation.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:31:30 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #758 on: September 04, 2008, 01:30:21 pm »
WTF is that supposed to mean?  You said the article is a lie.  Please point out that section that is a lie.

I'm responding to the fact that while it was pointed out that the "fact checking" article is wrong, it is not really wrong, because it was described as "nuanced" in it's responses.

It implied things that aren't necessarily true, and in fact led people to post that she in fact lobbied for money for this bridge, when it still hasnt been shown that his has happened.

Once again, i'll bring up the pejorative, push polling.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #759 on: September 04, 2008, 01:30:28 pm »
WTF is that supposed to mean?  You said the article is a lie.  Please point out that section that is a lie.

Obviously the whole fucking cake and the carton of ice cream next to it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #760 on: September 04, 2008, 01:30:58 pm »
I suggested that he opposed the legislation because he's so extreme in his support of Roe.

You sarcastically replied, yes, he's an extremist for supporting Roe.

Doesn't that mean that you agree with his opposition to the legislation because he claims it would undermine Roe?

And for that to be the case, doesn't that mean that you agree that the legislation would, in fact, undermine Roe?

So, I guess your in the "Barack just wants to kill babies" camp.  Clearly, there is no other explanation for his opposition to the Illinois bill which was later modified, in a manner which Obama said he would've supported, and passed 52-0.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #761 on: September 04, 2008, 01:31:54 pm »
I'm responding to the fact that while it was pointed out that the "fact checking" article is wrong, it is not really wrong, because it was described as "nuanced" in it's responses.

It implied things that aren't necessarily true, and in fact led people to post that she in fact lobbied for money for this bridge, when it still hasnt been shown that his has happened.

Once again, i'll bring up the pejorative, push polling.



The article said she did not oppose the bridge until it was unpopular.  What "not necessarily true" things did it imply?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #762 on: September 04, 2008, 01:33:24 pm »
If she had wanted to allocate that money to that bridge she could have.  But she didn't.

She still built the bridge access road on the "nowhere" side, even after the bridge had been cancelled, because not to do so would've meant giving back the money.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #763 on: September 04, 2008, 01:34:35 pm »
The article said she did not oppose the bridge until it was unpopular.  What "not necessarily true" things did it imply?

The fact that she had something to do with lobbying for the funding for it?  The fact that she didn't it wasnt a matter of popularity, but a matter of exploding costs and unavailable funds for it?  These things are the truth.  This implication that it was because people elsewhere were making fun of it was the reason and the cause, the direct line they drew from that to where the funding came from without mentioning Ted Stevens at all, is the Lie.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #764 on: September 04, 2008, 01:34:46 pm »
So, I guess your in the "Barack just wants to kill babies" camp.  Clearly, there is no other explanation for his opposition to the Illinois bill which was later modified, in a manner which Obama said he would've supported, and passed 52-0.

I repeat again, I think he feared voting for the legislation, notwithstanding the disclaimer, would be preceived as possibily weakening Roe. A guy gearing up to run for senator and later president as a Democrat doesn't need that perception. The vote against the legislation speaks for itself as to whether he was particularly concerned about whether the infants were dying. But as with all things Roe-related, the symbolism is more important than the substance.

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« Reply #765 on: September 04, 2008, 01:35:49 pm »
She still built the bridge access road on the "nowhere" side, even after the bridge had been cancelled, because not to do so would've meant giving back the money.

Show where that this is the case.  Considering that the funds were never de-allocated, just un earmarked would say otherwise.  

More than likely it was an appeasement to the campaign promise she had just broken.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #766 on: September 04, 2008, 01:39:17 pm »
This is what the AP article says:

As has been pointed out in multiple place and in multiple quotes, she was all about building this bridge.  All.  Over.  It.  Then when its budget continued to grow and pretty much everyone outside of her and Ted Stevens said "you know, this is a bad idea" and decided not to spend more money on it, she cancelled it and spent the money elsewhere.

This is hardly saying "thanks, but no thanks"

It could be one of those, "you know, now that we are getting into the nuts and bolts of this thing, it really does like a pretty poor way to spend this money. I've changed my mind." No politician has ever changed their mind before, have they?

I really want to get me a new truck. I have set out about picking just what I want. When I started looking at options, and even though I have money saved for it, when the price I was looking at changed from ~$25-28k and jumped up about $10-12k, I decided I would rather use that money in other ways and find another way to haul things/get back and forth to work.

In other words, this seems to be a pretty big distraction from talking about how, even with as little as McCain-Palin offer, Obama-Biden seem to have little of substance. I actually have enjoyed Obama's speeches on occasion, and Biden is experienced in the snate and entertaining to watch sometimes, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to cover them the way they do Palin's pregnant daughter.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #767 on: September 04, 2008, 01:41:38 pm »
You have the same access as I do or anyone else does to read what they wrote. Based on what they wrote in those opinions and in subsequent opinions, there is little if anything to indicate that they would have found the legislation in question, the legislation that Obama opposed, to be a constitutional violation.

Ignoring the fact that you're still claiming to have the inside track on the opinion of dead Supreme Court Justices, the mere fact that Illinois changed the language of their law as it relates to the preservation of rights as per Roe (even though Obama was gone to Washington by that time) is proof enough for me - unequipped as I am with a your insight and legal scholarship - that there was people other than Obama that felt the bill needed to be tweaked.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #768 on: September 04, 2008, 01:41:43 pm »
But as with all things Roe-related, the symbolism is more important than the substance.

To whom? What a bizarre fucking statement.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #769 on: September 04, 2008, 01:42:05 pm »
I actually have enjoyed Obama's speeches on occasion, and Biden is experienced in the snate and entertaining to watch sometimes, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to cover them the way they do Palin's pregnant daughter.

There's a Rev. Wright on line 1 for you, sir.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #770 on: September 04, 2008, 01:42:45 pm »
I repeat again, I think he feared voting for the legislation, notwithstanding the disclaimer, would be preceived as possibily weakening Roe. A guy gearing up to run for senator and later president as a Democrat doesn't need that perception. The vote against the legislation speaks for itself as to whether he was particularly concerned about whether the infants were dying. But as with all things Roe-related, the symbolism is more important than the substance.

So, you're back in Obama's head now.  You do get around.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #771 on: September 04, 2008, 01:43:55 pm »
Show where that this is the case.  Considering that the funds were never de-allocated, just un earmarked would say otherwise.  

More than likely it was an appeasement to the campaign promise she had just broken.

It's in the Boston Herald article that Trey linked.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #772 on: September 04, 2008, 01:45:47 pm »
And that would be fine, unless of course, you spent what money you did get on a new DVD player went on national TV and said "I wouldn't buy that TV even though they gave me the money.  I told them no thanks."

What if I needed the new DVD player for the family room and said what I said becaus eI had to address the conflicting sentiments of my son and the people giving me the money?

It is hard, when you are in a spotlight, to say some things in a way that will appease conflicting parties. This could definitely be read as trying to keep the support of the people in Alaska and the people in the nation at the same time. You can't tell me she will be able to ignore this issue, so why not try and put the best spin on it as possible and let idiots argue about it on the internet (yes, I meant to say I am an idiot for discussing this).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #773 on: September 04, 2008, 01:46:37 pm »
from coverage of a debate in 2006, Anchorage Daily News
she also said projects like a bridge over Knik Arm linking Anchorage and Mat-Su may be "now or never" propositions while the state's current influential congressional lineup is still in Washington, D.C.
http://www.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/217683.html

from the Governor’s office

Governor Palin. “Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it’s clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island,” Governor Palin added. “Much of the public’s attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened.”
http://gov.state.ak.us/archive-28635.html

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #774 on: September 04, 2008, 01:46:37 pm »
I really want to get me a new truck. I have set out about picking just what I want. When I started looking at options, and even though I have money saved for it, when the price I was looking at changed from ~$25-28k and jumped up about $10-12k, I decided I would rather use that money in other ways and find another way to haul things/get back and forth to work.

I hear you. But the difference is, you didn't ask for money from the bank, wind up with a loan for half of what you needed, decide not to buy a truck at all, then claim that you had told the fat cats at the bank to fuck themselves. If you had, then it wouldn't be unfair for people to pick at the accuracy of your claim. That's all.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #775 on: September 04, 2008, 01:46:50 pm »
It's in the Boston Herald article that Trey linked.

Money for that road and the bridge were not linked.  Regardless of what happened with that road, the  money for that bridge was staying in their transportation fund.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #776 on: September 04, 2008, 01:48:13 pm »
SHE STILL HAD THE MONEY.

The money never left.

It simply could now be used elsewhere and not specifically on the bridge.  If she had wanted to, she could have applied it to the bridge.


Palin last night: "We suspended the state fuel tax and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress, "Thanks, but no thanks," on that Bridge to Nowhere."

She had absolutely nothing to do with the earmark. She was never in any position to tell Congress "thanks but no thanks." Congress did it for her, well before she was governor.

Palin last night: "If our state wanted to build a bridge, we were going to build it ourselves."

So why did she lobby for the project? Why did she cite the efforts of Alaska's congressional delegation in obtaining federal funds to build it? Why did she put such emphasis on Congress's disinterest in the project?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #777 on: September 04, 2008, 01:50:22 pm »
Money for that road and the bridge were not linked.  Regardless of what happened with that road, the  money for that bridge was staying in their transportation fund.

True.  But it goes to show the duplicity of her statement.  She claims to have kyboshed the bridge to nowhere, while keeping the money thankyouverymuch, yet she went ahead with a related - and now rendered pointless - project for which the money would otherwise have been returned.  If she's so anti-pork, why not just not build the road and give the money back?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #778 on: September 04, 2008, 01:50:51 pm »
There's a Rev. Wright on line 1 for you, sir.

You are right. Palin should throw her daughter out and let everyone know she now disapproves of her because people asked questions about her.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #779 on: September 04, 2008, 01:52:20 pm »
You are right. Palin should throw her daughter out and let everyone know she now disapproves of her because people asked questions about her.

I think the point was that Obama's been around for a bit and had his share of coal-dragging.  Palin's just showed up, so she gets the limelight - good and bad.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #780 on: September 04, 2008, 01:54:51 pm »
I think the point was that Obama's been around for a bit and had his share of coal-dragging.  Palin's just showed up, so she gets the limelight - good and bad.

Right, but Huckabee nailed it last night when he "thanked" the "liberal media" for "uniting the party".  It's a manufactured outrage to amplify the original intest of the Palin pick, which was to fire up their base in ways that McCain can't.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #781 on: September 04, 2008, 01:57:01 pm »
Right, but Huckabee nailed it last night when he "thanked" the "liberal media" for "uniting the party".  It's a manufactured outrage to amplify the original intest of the Palin pick, which was to fire up their base in ways that McCain can't.

And in a stroke of irony, I think Palin has also chopped the legs out from under the PUMAs.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #782 on: September 04, 2008, 01:57:49 pm »
I hear you. But the difference is, you didn't ask for money from the bank, wind up with a loan for half of what you needed, decide not to buy a truck at all, then claim that you had told the fat cats at the bank to fuck themselves. If you had, then it wouldn't be unfair for people to pick at the accuracy of your claim. That's all.

By me a few drinks at the local pub and I might say that at some point. (The smiley that should possibly go here will never come from my bleeding fingers!)

The situation might have changed (cost vs. need). Sure, pick at the statement then, but she has to have some way to blunt the attack against her "nowhere" constituents and still support the cancelation of the project. They gave her the money and it was used in ways that might actually make more fiscal sense (I really don't know).

In other words, "you convinced me I am wrong, but gave me the money anyways. I can prove that we can be responsible and not go against your wishes."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #783 on: September 04, 2008, 01:59:17 pm »
True.  But it goes to show the duplicity of her statement.  She claims to have kyboshed the bridge to nowhere, while keeping the money thankyouverymuch, yet she went ahead with a related - and now rendered pointless - project for which the money would otherwise have been returned.  If she's so anti-pork, why not just not build the road and give the money back?

Maybe it will lead to the new ferry project instead?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #784 on: September 04, 2008, 02:01:05 pm »
Ignoring the fact that you're still claiming to have the inside track on the opinion of dead Supreme Court Justices ...

To repeat, you can read what they wrote and infer from it the same as I or anyone else can.

Quote
... the mere fact that Illinois changed the language of their law as it relates to the preservation of rights as per Roe (even though Obama was gone to Washington by that time) is proof enough for me - unequipped as I am with a your insight and legal scholarship - that there was people other than Obama that felt the bill needed to be tweaked.

The disclaimer meant to protect Roe -- "Nothing in this Section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being born alive as defined in this Section" -- was in there even when Obama was voting on it.

Go back to MM's link to the fact check. As it clearly states, "But Obama's claim is wrong. In fact, by the time the HHS Committee voted on the bill, it did contain language identical to the federal act" -- including the disclaimer.

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #785 on: September 04, 2008, 02:05:17 pm »
This moving the money around excuse is bullshit.  She wanted and actively lobbied for federal money for Alaskan projects, from the links I provided above

"...projects ...may be "now or never" propositions while the state's current influential congressional lineup is still in Washington, D.C...."

Governor Palin. “Despite the work of our congressional delegation,..."

She wanted the money, she did everything she could to get the money. 


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #786 on: September 04, 2008, 02:07:42 pm »
I think the point was that Obama's been around for a bit and had his share of coal-dragging.  Palin's just showed up, so she gets the limelight - good and bad.

Yes, and it is dragging the limelight away from Obama and McCain. I will stand up with my family for as long as I can. They are my family. I wonder that they think that it is a weekness when Palin's family is scandalized when many might see that as a strength and something they can relate to. Not all of us have had the perfect family lives and might like someone who we relate to.

Now, when I choose to be around more extreme people, I really believe that says more negative about my character than standing with my family.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #787 on: September 04, 2008, 02:14:40 pm »
She wanted the money, she did everything she could to get the money. 

Which conveniently ignores the timetable of when the funding for this bridge was earmarked.  She had nothing to do with it.  And also, she still had it.  She didnt need to ask for it, it was already there, just not specifically apportioned to a project she then deemed not worth it.

So yes, it doesn't fit what you want it to say, so it indeed is "bullshit".
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #788 on: September 04, 2008, 02:15:46 pm »
This moving the money around excuse is bullshit.  She wanted and actively lobbied for federal money for Alaskan projects, from the links I provided above

"...projects ...may be "now or never" propositions while the state's current influential congressional lineup is still in Washington, D.C...."

Governor Palin. “Despite the work of our congressional delegation,..."

She wanted the money, she did everything she could to get the money. 



I accept that, but I do wonder if her priorities changed once the increasing costs and criticism showed the project to be less feasible. Can she not change her opinions and priorities? As with my truck, it just doesn't make sense at this point, and I can present it in a way that won't piss off my wife or my employer by saying it in a carefully worded way while they are both listening to me.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #789 on: September 04, 2008, 02:17:21 pm »
Which conveniently ignores the timetable of when the funding for this bridge was earmarked.  She had nothing to do with it.  And also, she still had it.  She didnt need to ask for it, it was already there, just not specifically apportioned to a project she then deemed not worth it.

So yes, it doesn't fit what you want it to say, so it indeed is "bullshit".

In 2006? She wasnt the Governor but campaigning she sounds like she wants federal money.  And lots of it.  The quote from when she is Governor sounds like she thinks it's a shame they can't build the bridge.  But the bridge, ultimately, is a red herring. She sent lobbyists to get as much federal money as she could drag back to Alaska.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #790 on: September 04, 2008, 02:17:52 pm »
To repeat, you can read what they wrote and infer from it the same as I or anyone else can.

OR, I can infer differently from what they wrote, and here we'll be, stuck arguing who has a better understanding of what dead people would've thought about something that they never saw, let alone wrote about.


The disclaimer meant to protect Roe -- "Nothing in this Section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being born alive as defined in this Section" -- was in there even when Obama was voting on it.

Go back to MM's link to the fact check. As it clearly states, "But Obama's claim is wrong. In fact, by the time the HHS Committee voted on the bill, it did contain language identical to the federal act" -- including the disclaimer.


From MM's link:
Even with the same wording as the federal law, the Obama camp says, the state bill would have a different effect than the BAIPA would have at the federal level. It's state law, not federal law, that actually regulates the practice of abortion.

That article also provides this link to a full statement by the Obama campaign which explains, in excrutiating detail, exactly what was in play at the time.  It also details the other State Senators, Republican and Democrat alike, who similarly voted against the bills.  And, back to MM's article, where it states "And in fact, the 2005 version of the Illinois bill, which passed the Senate 52 to 0 (with four voting "present") after Obama had gone on to Washington, included an additional protective clause not included in the federal legislation"

See that?  Not once have I tried to extrapolate what anyone else was thinking.  I just used what was said and by whom.  Now, feel free to go ahead and tell me that this isn't really what they meant, and that you knew all along about Obama's little baby-killing circus going on down there in Librillinois.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:19:33 pm by Limey »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #791 on: September 04, 2008, 02:18:11 pm »
I accept that, but I do wonder if her priorities changed once the increasing costs and criticism showed the project to be less feasible. Can she not change her opinions and priorities? As with my truck, it just doesn't make sense at this point, and I can present it in a way that won't piss off my wife or my employer by saying it in a carefully worded way while they are both listening to me.



Her priority was to obtain as much federal money as she could get her hands on.  No matter what it was going to be used for. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #792 on: September 04, 2008, 02:20:34 pm »
Maybe it will lead to the new ferry project instead?

Isn't a ferry what they use already?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #793 on: September 04, 2008, 02:20:41 pm »
In 2006? She wasnt the Governor but campaigning she sounds like she wants federal money.  And lots of it.  The quote from when she is Governor sounds like she thinks it's a shame they can't build the bridge.  But the bridge, ultimately, is a red herring. She sent lobbyists to get as much federal money as she could drag back to Alaska.

Sadly, most of our representatives seem to be trying to get as much money as they can for their represented. I'm not sure why they would do that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #794 on: September 04, 2008, 02:21:35 pm »
Sadly, most of our representatives seem to be trying to get as much money as they can for their represented. I'm not sure why they would do that.

Cause we want them to.  Why pretend they dont.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #795 on: September 04, 2008, 02:23:24 pm »
Isn't a ferry what they use already?

Yes, but they have talked about upgrading/expanding it. I will try to figure out where I read about that (it has been a while), but I believe it was another option considered along with the bridge many years ago. It became a more attractive option since then.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #796 on: September 04, 2008, 02:24:50 pm »
Yes, and it is dragging the limelight away from Obama and McCain. I will stand up with my family for as long as I can. They are my family. I wonder that they think that it is a weekness when Palin's family is scandalized when many might see that as a strength and something they can relate to. Not all of us have had the perfect family lives and might like someone who we relate to.

Now, when I choose to be around more extreme people, I really believe that says more negative about my character than standing with my family.

I am not defending the media's fascination with Palin's daughter, it's ridiculous.  I was just supporting the point that Obama's personal life was also invaded, when they tried to tarnish him with the opinions of his pastor.  Of course, the attention on Bristol Palin may have helped rally the RNC, and the attention on Rev. Wright helped dispel the myth that Obama's muslim, so in a way there's a silver lining.
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« Reply #797 on: September 04, 2008, 02:25:06 pm »
Cause we want them to.  Why pretend they dont.

Then I guess I don't understand why her lobbying for money is thought of as so criminal.
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« Reply #798 on: September 04, 2008, 02:25:53 pm »
I am not defending the media's fascination with Palin's daughter, it's ridiculous.  I was just supporting the point that Obama's personal life was also invaded, when they tried to tarnish him with the opinions of his pastor.  Of course, the attention on Bristol Palin may have helped rally the RNC, and the attention on Rev. Wright helped dispel the myth that Obama's muslim, so in a way there's a silver lining.

Good points.
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« Reply #799 on: September 04, 2008, 02:26:20 pm »
Then I guess I don't understand why her lobbying for money is thought of as so criminal.

It's not.  As always (see: Clinton, Bill), it's the lying about it that will get you in trouble.
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« Reply #800 on: September 04, 2008, 02:27:11 pm »
Yes, but they have talked about upgrading/expanding it. I will try to figure out where I read about that (it has been a while), but I believe it was another option considered along with the bridge many years ago. It became a more attractive option since then.

I'm more than happy to be told that the road will now serve as access for a planned ferry service expansion - it means my tax dollars haven't been wasted.  The article said that the road dead-ended at the beach where the bridge was supposed to come in, but didn't expand on possible future uses.
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« Reply #801 on: September 04, 2008, 02:28:35 pm »
Then I guess I don't understand why her lobbying for money is thought of as so criminal.

It's not.  And it's not criminal to lie about it and say that you didn't.  It's just dishonest.
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« Reply #802 on: September 04, 2008, 02:28:43 pm »
I accept that, but I do wonder if her priorities changed once the increasing costs and criticism showed the project to be less feasible. Can she not change her opinions and priorities? As with my truck, it just doesn't make sense at this point, and I can present it in a way that won't piss off my wife or my employer by saying it in a carefully worded way while they are both listening to me.



Of course she can change her priorities.  And we can question why she changes those priorities.  And we can certainly question why she acts like she told the feds to fuck themselves when what she really said was, "Sweet!  Thanks!"
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #803 on: September 04, 2008, 02:31:50 pm »
It's not.  As always (see: Clinton, Bill), it's the lying about it that will get you in trouble.

But then again, I think there is a little wiggle room to say she initially lobbied for what she thought was a good project and almost had everything approved, but under additional scrutiny and rising costs, though Alaska received the money, she found the most diplomatic way possible to use the funds and help stop the project at the same time AND turning it into a political (possible) possitive. I DO agree that I am probably going into quite a bit of mind-reading here, though. I just think it is plausible.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #804 on: September 04, 2008, 02:34:08 pm »
Then I guess I don't understand why her lobbying for money is thought of as so criminal.

Because now she says she's campaigning against this.  Made quite a speech about it.  Just like the Republicans at the convention seem to be campaigning against the Republicans in DC.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #805 on: September 04, 2008, 02:34:41 pm »
But then again, I think there is a little wiggle room to say she initially lobbied for what she thought was a good project and almost had everything approved, but under additional scrutiny and rising costs, though Alaska received the money, she found the most diplomatic way possible to use the funds and help stop the project at the same time AND turning it into a political (possible) possitive. I DO agree that I am probably going into quite a bit of mind-reading here, though. I just think it is plausible.

So you interpret "I said 'thanks, but no thanks!'" as that?  Really?
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #806 on: September 04, 2008, 02:35:46 pm »
But then again, I think there is a little wiggle room to say she initially lobbied for what she thought was a good project and almost had everything approved, but under additional scrutiny and rising costs, though Alaska received the money, she found the most diplomatic way possible to use the funds and help stop the project at the same time AND turning it into a political (possible) possitive. I DO agree that I am probably going into quite a bit of mind-reading here, though. I just think it is plausible.

i don't think anyone is questioning the motives behind her actions surrounding the earmark. They are questioning her pep rally tale of how it went down in last night's speech.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #807 on: September 04, 2008, 02:36:09 pm »
I'm more than happy to be told that the road will now serve as access for a planned ferry service expansion - it means my tax dollars haven't been wasted.  The article said that the road dead-ended at the beach where the bridge was supposed to come in, but didn't expand on possible future uses.

Businessess and homes are supposed to spring up around the gravel road.  Apparently, there's not much suitable land for development in Alaska.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #808 on: September 04, 2008, 02:40:54 pm »
Businessess and homes are supposed to spring up around the gravel road.  Apparently, there's not much suitable land for development in Alaska.

Here's an interesting photo.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #809 on: September 04, 2008, 02:42:08 pm »
Alaska Daily News

In September, 2006, Palin showed up in Ketchikan on her gubernatorial campaign and said the bridge was essential for the town's prosperity.

and

The Alaska governor campaigned in 2006 on a build-the-bridge platform, telling Ketchikan residents she felt their pain when politicians called them "nowhere." They're still feeling pain today in Ketchikan, over Palin's subsequent decision to use the bridge funds for other projects -- and over the timing of her announcement, which they say came in a pre-dawn press release that seemed aimed at national news deadlines.

"I think that's when the campaign for national office began," said Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein on Saturday.

http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #810 on: September 04, 2008, 02:43:18 pm »
OR, I can infer differently from what they wrote, and here we'll be, stuck arguing who has a better understanding of what dead people would've thought about something that they never saw, let alone wrote about.

Can you cite any writings by them, or for that matter any other Supreme Court justice, that leaving an infant born alive to die is protected by the Constitution and Roe? I think not, since I am aware of no such writings in existence. We can judge what they thought based on what they wrote. This happens not infrequently when these matters come before the court.

Quote
From MM's link:

Even with the same wording as the federal law, the Obama camp says, the state bill would have a different effect than the BAIPA would have at the federal level. It's state law, not federal law, that actually regulates the practice of abortion.

That article also provides this link to a full statement by the Obama campaign which explains, in excrutiating detail, exactly what was in play at the time.  It also details the other State Senators, Republican and Democrat alike, who similarly voted against the bills.  And, back to MM's article, where it states "And in fact, the 2005 version of the Illinois bill, which passed the Senate 52 to 0 (with four voting "present") after Obama had gone on to Washington, included an additional protective clause not included in the federal legislation"

See that?  Not once have I tried to extrapolate what anyone else was thinking.  I just used what was said and by whom.  Now, feel free to go ahead and tell me that this isn't really what they meant, and that you knew all along about Obama's little baby-killing circus going on down there in Librillinois.

This is erroneous for at least two reasons. First, the Obama campaign itself keeps changing the reasons why he voted against the legislation. It's morphed from (a) the assertion that the legislation didn't have the Roe disclaimer to (b) the assertion that the legislation would have a different effect at the state level than at the federal level to (c) the assertion that existing law already protects infants in these circumstances. The moving target strongly suggests that they're struggling to come up with a viable excuse to justify votes way out of the mainstream on this issue.

Second, and more substantively, each of these defenses of Obama's votes is problematic: (a) turned out simply to be false; (b) is a weak excuse because it implies that he would vote for federal law because it wouldn't have any actual effect, but he wouldn't vote for a state law because it would have actual effect, which is another way of saying that he doesn't want to vote for the law if it actually does what it's intended to do; and (c) begs the question of why he should oppose the law at all, if he is content that there are already other laws that do the same thing (critics assert that these other laws have loopholes).

In the end, whatever the shifting reasons trotted out by the Obama campaign, you get back to the same place: Obama didn't want to vote for a law that would be effective in granting rights to infants born alive during an abortion because he was concerned that this would lead to a slippery slope. To repeat, I think Obama's so extreme in his support of Roe that he didn't want to cast a vote that would in any way be construed as weakening it. The fact check sustains this conclusion:

"Obama's critics are free to speculate on his motives for voting against the bills, and postulate a lack of concern for babies' welfare. But his stated reasons for opposing 'born-alive' bills have to do with preserving abortion rights, a position he is known to support and has never hidden."

The campaign should just come clean: Obama is so committed to upholding Roe that he opposes any legislation that could be used or perceived to undermine Roe.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:46:25 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #811 on: September 04, 2008, 02:44:05 pm »
i don't think anyone is questioning the motives behind her actions surrounding the earmark. They are questioning her pep rally tale of how it went down in last night's speech.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #812 on: September 04, 2008, 02:47:59 pm »
Pretty amazing how much talk about Palin is going on when this merited hardly a comment here.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #813 on: September 04, 2008, 02:48:03 pm »
The campaign should just come clean: Obama is so committed to upholding Roe that he even opposes any legislation that could be used or perceived to undermine Roe.

It seems to me that he took a law that he perceived as flawed, and opposed it, and it fixed, and it got passed, so now the rights of born alive babies and women are protected.  You seem to think that's a bad thing.  I don't.

ETA: Sorry, Limey, I pushed modify rather than quote. Please repost if you want.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:54:36 pm by Arky Vaughan »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #814 on: September 04, 2008, 02:51:59 pm »
Pretty amazing how much talk about Palin is going on when this merited hardly a comment here.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #815 on: September 04, 2008, 02:54:52 pm »
It seems to me that he took a law that he perceived as flawed, and opposed it, and it fixed, and it got passed, so now the rights of born alive babies and women are protected.  You seem to think that's a bad thing.  I don't.

He opposed the law when it already said virtually the same thing as a bill that passed the U.S. Senate unanimously. His grounds for that opposition have shifted all over the place, to the point of calling people liars when they called him on it. I think that's a bad thing, because it makes abundantly clear that upholding Roe at all costs is a higher priority for him than voting for legislation that just about everybody else in both parties thought was reasonable to protect infants born alive during an abortion. Protecting a woman's "right to choose" is more important to him politically than voting in favor of a law to curtail infanticide. I don't just think that's a bad thing. I think it's reprehensible.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:57:44 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #816 on: September 04, 2008, 02:56:07 pm »
Pretty amazing how much talk about Palin is going on when this merited hardly a comment here.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

I don't think it's surprising when you're looking at a thread called "Palin. WTF?"
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #817 on: September 04, 2008, 02:58:33 pm »
I don't think it's surprising when you're looking at a thread called "Palin. WTF?"

Just thinking while we're trying to get all the facts straight and everything ...

By the way, it looks like our tax discussion above was off the mark, according to this.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #818 on: September 04, 2008, 04:33:09 pm »
Alaska Daily News

In September, 2006, Palin showed up in Ketchikan on her gubernatorial campaign and said the bridge was essential for the town's prosperity.

and

The Alaska governor campaigned in 2006 on a build-the-bridge platform, telling Ketchikan residents she felt their pain when politicians called them "nowhere." They're still feeling pain today in Ketchikan, over Palin's subsequent decision to use the bridge funds for other projects -- and over the timing of her announcement, which they say came in a pre-dawn press release that seemed aimed at national news deadlines.

"I think that's when the campaign for national office began," said Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein on Saturday.

http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/511471.html


I think you guys covered the bridge, but re: earmarks in general..

Here's what she says:

Quote
   
In the nationally televised speech, she stood by McCain and said, "I've championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. In fact, I told Congress thanks, but no thanks, on that bridge to nowhere. If our state wanted a bridge, I said, we'd build it ourselves."

And here's her record:

Quote
Wasilla had received few if any earmarks before Palin became mayor. She actively sought federal funds -- a campaign that began to pay off only after she hired a lobbyist with close ties to Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who long controlled federal spending as chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. He made funneling money to Alaska his hallmark.

Quote
This year, Palin, who has been governor for nearly 22 months, defended earmarking as a vital part of the legislative system. "The federal budget, in its various manifestations, is incredibly important to us, and congressional earmarks are one aspect of this relationship," she wrote in a newspaper column.

Quote
This year she submitted to Congress a list of Alaska projects worth $197.8 million, including $2 million to research crab productivity in the Bering Sea and $7.4 million to improve runway lighting at eight Alaska airports. A spokesman said she cut the original list of 54 projects to 31.

"So while Sen. McCain was going after cutting earmarks in Washington," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, "Gov. Palin was going after getting earmarks."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-earmarks3-2008sep03,0,2482434.story

When you get past the fluff of ebay-auctioned jets and fired personal chefs, there's not much substance to her fiscal hawk facade.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #819 on: September 04, 2008, 05:05:23 pm »
He opposed the law when it already said virtually the same thing as a bill that passed the U.S. Senate unanimously. His grounds for that opposition have shifted all over the place, to the point of calling people liars when they called him on it. I think that's a bad thing, because it makes abundantly clear that upholding Roe at all costs is a higher priority for him than voting for legislation that just about everybody else in both parties thought was reasonable to protect infants born alive during an abortion. Protecting a woman's "right to choose" is more important to him politically than voting in favor of a law to curtail infanticide. I don't just think that's a bad thing. I think it's reprehensible.


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #820 on: September 04, 2008, 06:37:29 pm »
Like him or not, Rove was a very successful political operative crook.


Fixed.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #821 on: September 04, 2008, 06:55:48 pm »
Sorry, I meant Pelin, WTF.  Pelin.  Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #822 on: September 04, 2008, 09:24:20 pm »
OMG
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #823 on: September 05, 2008, 07:39:45 am »
"I think that's when the campaign for national office began," said Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein on Saturday.

Quite the auspicious start, huh? A rally in Ketchikan in front of seventeen Innuit and nine frozen stoners and several misspelled placards in order to demand funding for a project that she cunningly did not want all along.

Oh, you mean I'm supposed to play the anti-Washington, anti-earmark PTA mom? Shit, let me smear this lipstick off, change out of the fishnets and find a skirt that gets closer to the knees.

Fuck me, these nutjobs will do anything to get someone who hates reproductive rights on the ticket. Hate science, too? Sweet!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #824 on: September 05, 2008, 09:01:36 am »
Quite the auspicious start, huh? A rally in Ketchikan in front of seventeen Innuit and nine frozen stoners and several misspelled placards in order to demand funding for a project that she cunningly did not want all along.

Oh, you mean I'm supposed to play the anti-Washington, anti-earmark PTA mom? Shit, let me smear this lipstick off, change out of the fishnets and find a skirt that gets closer to the knees.

Fuck me, these nutjobs will do anything to get someone who hates reproductive rights on the ticket. Hate science, too? Sweet!

Chuck, don't you think it's a little early in the morning to be talking about your cross dressing thing?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #825 on: September 05, 2008, 09:06:25 am »
Chuck, don't you think it's a little early in the morning to be talking about your cross dressing thing?

He may still be in Australia. They're into that there.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #826 on: September 05, 2008, 09:29:30 am »
He may still be in Australia. They're into that there.

The only place on earth where wearing a speedo, while not in competition, is acceptable.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #827 on: September 05, 2008, 09:41:24 am »
The only place on earth where wearing a speedo, while not in competition, is acceptable.

You're leaving out Remulac, errr, France.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #828 on: September 05, 2008, 09:55:33 am »
Meanwhile, don't expect to see much of VPILF Palin over the coming weeks:

Quote from: Time's Jay Carney
According to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy. According to Wallace -- in an appearance I did with her this morning on Joe Scarborough's show -- the American people will learn all they need to know (and all they deserve to know) from Palin's scripted speeches and choreographed appearances on the campaign trail and in campaign ads.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #829 on: September 05, 2008, 09:57:51 am »
He may still be in Australia. They're into that there.

Well, Tokyo now, but I was in Thailand for a good while there and let me tell you...
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #830 on: September 05, 2008, 09:58:48 am »
Well, Tokyo now, but I was in Thailand for a good while there and let me tell you...

LBFMs?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #831 on: September 05, 2008, 10:01:06 am »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #832 on: September 05, 2008, 10:08:09 am »
Experience was important, now it's really not.

Hope and change were mocked at every chance, now they're good.

They're all over the place.  Palin has already helped raise 10 million dollars, for Obama
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 10:17:02 am by kevwun »
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #833 on: September 05, 2008, 10:14:45 am »
Quite the auspicious start, huh? A rally in Ketchikan in front of seventeen Innuit and nine frozen stoners and several misspelled placards in order to demand funding for a project that she cunningly did not want all along.

Oh, you mean I'm supposed to play the anti-Washington, anti-earmark PTA mom? Shit, let me smear this lipstick off, change out of the fishnets and find a skirt that gets closer to the knees.

Fuck me, these nutjobs will do anything to get someone who hates reproductive rights on the ticket. Hate science, too? Sweet!

C'mon, Chuck, let all that anguish out. Why, you might even refer to her as "articulate and bright and clean and nice-looking" while you're at it.

What, by the way, is a "reproductive right?" A right that reproduces itself?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 10:19:40 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #834 on: September 05, 2008, 10:18:11 am »
Experience was important, now it's really not.

Hope and change was mocked at every chance, now they're good.

They're all over the place.  Palin has already helped raise 10 million dollars, for Obama

Who mocked hope and change? Perhaps people just don't consider a return to the '60s and '70s to be change and Carternomics redux to be hope.

And you must really be worried to have to constantly defend the experience of the presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket against the experience of the vice-presidential candidate on the Republican ticket.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #835 on: September 05, 2008, 10:18:53 am »
Experience was important, now it's really not.

Hope and change was mocked at every chance, now they're good.

They're all over the place.  Palin has already helped raise 10 million dollars, for Obama

She also enunciated an energy plan that sounded exactly like Obama's (except that he's not quite so enthusiastic about drilling).  She even instigated a windfall profits tax on oil companies, which is one of the reasons why Alaska has a budget surplus (it was worth about $1.5bn).
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #836 on: September 05, 2008, 10:21:13 am »
She also enunciated an energy plan that sounded exactly like Obama's (except that he's not quite so enthusiastic about drilling).

Drilling is a pretty critical difference, isn't it?

Also, is she trying to fool people into believing that we're going to be "weaned off foreign oil" in 10 years? If so, she's as big a liar as he is on this issue.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 10:22:47 am by Arky Vaughan »

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« Reply #837 on: September 05, 2008, 10:23:24 am »
And you must really be worried to have to constantly defend the experience of the presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket against the experience of the vice-presidential candidate on the Republican ticket.

This, IMO, highlights a problem for the Obama camp.  If this thread is a window into what's going on in America then Obama needs to force a change of focus.  He cannot have undecided voters and his own camp arguing him v. Palin.  This election is Obama v. McCain.  For as long as they spend time going after Palin, McCain gets a ride on easy street.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #838 on: September 05, 2008, 10:24:21 am »
Who mocked hope and change? Perhaps people just don't consider a return to the '60s and '70s to be change and Carternomics redux to be hope.

McCain mocked Obama for talking about hope; he accused Obama of giving people "false hope".  Obama responded by saying "there's nothing false about hope".
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« Reply #839 on: September 05, 2008, 10:27:49 am »
McCain mocked Obama for talking about hope; he accused Obama of giving people "false hope".  Obama responded by saying "there's nothing false about hope".

Which is a nifty rhetorical trick but doesn't address the thrust of McCain's point which is that Obama's message of hope is mostly an empty promise.

Promising to raise taxes, expand government, socialize healthcare and appease dictators is not hope in my book.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #840 on: September 05, 2008, 10:27:54 am »
Experience was important, now it's really not.

Hope and change were mocked at every chance, now they're good.

They're all over the place.  Palin has already helped raise 10 million dollars, for Obama

I found that to be an interesting occurance.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #841 on: September 05, 2008, 10:28:45 am »
She also enunciated an energy plan that sounded exactly like Obama's (except that he's not quite so enthusiastic about drilling).  She even instigated a windfall profits tax on oil companies, which is one of the reasons why Alaska has a budget surplus (it was worth about $1.5bn).

And she's wrong on the windfall profits tax, by the way. The effect of that tax on discouraging exploration and production in Alaska should be a lesson against trying the same thing nationally.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #842 on: September 05, 2008, 10:31:32 am »
This, IMO, highlights a problem for the Obama camp.  If this thread is a window into what's going on in America then Obama needs to force a change of focus.  He cannot have undecided voters and his own camp arguing him v. Palin.  This election is Obama v. McCain.  For as long as they spend time going after Palin, McCain gets a ride on easy street.

Agreed. While I don't buy Obama's message, he's got better points to recommend his candidacy than to argue that running his campaign staff and his budget is better executive experience than running a small town in Alaska. But perhaps that's part of what Palin brings to the ticket -- it's taken the Obama campaign's eye off the ball.

And the people responding rabidly like Chuck did above just show their asses when they devolve into the fishnets stuff.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #843 on: September 05, 2008, 10:32:27 am »
This, IMO, highlights a problem for the Obama camp.  If this thread is a window into what's going on in America then Obama needs to force a change of focus.  He cannot have undecided voters and his own camp arguing him v. Palin.  This election is Obama v. McCain.  For as long as they spend time going after Palin, McCain gets a ride on easy street.

Not as long as people who were voting for McCain (disaffected Hilary supporters, for example) are scared away from voting for McCain because of Palin.  Riddle me this, what voters will Sarah Palin bring in?  The hard right?  They were already stuck with McCain or a third party.   This might win a few of them back, but I'd say it's a net loss because there is no way Hilary's supporters will vote on the ticket with Palin.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #844 on: September 05, 2008, 10:32:45 am »
I found that to be an interesting occurance.

They didn't have any reason to be worried before. Now they do, so they're opening their pocketbooks.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #845 on: September 05, 2008, 10:35:40 am »
Not as long as people who were voting for McCain (disaffected Hilary supporters, for example) are scared away from voting for McCain because of Palin.  Riddle me this, what voters will Sarah Palin bring in?  The hard right?  They were already stuck with McCain or a third party.   This might win a few of them back, but I'd say it's a net loss because there is no way Hilary's supporters will vote on the ticket with Palin.

Hillary's supporters are not a monolith. While I suspect the vast majority of them, as Democrats, will still vote for Obama, that doesn't mean some of them won't find Palin an interesting possibility.

And Hillary's supporters also don't comprise the entirety of women voters in this country. McCain needs suburban women to win the election. If Palin helps him carry that group by a large enough majority, then he doesn't have to worry as much about Hillary's key constituencies of urban professional women and working class women.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #846 on: September 05, 2008, 10:37:52 am »
Drilling is a pretty critical difference, isn't it?

On the Republican side, they claim that we have to throw open ever available piece of acreage to get oil flowing.  I'm all for that, but considering that about 80% of the existing leases awarded remain undrilled means that opening up new leases will not increase the drilling activity.  They are drilling as fast and as furiously as they can, but rigs have been running at 100% utilization for years now.  They don't have enough rigs to drill what they already have, so giving them more leases will just mean more undrilled leases on the books.

I'm a proponent of drilling and I'm not too worried about the "environmentally safe" objections.  But pushing for new leases now is a red herring.  Giving oil companies subsidies to help them drill is a red herring.  There simply aren't enough rigs  - nor experienced crews to run them - to drill any more than is currently being done.

Do you really think, with oil over $100/barrel, that there are serviceable rigs just lying around with nothing to do? I have a client who put in an order for over 100 new land rigs (from China) over the next 7 years.  They are coming off the line as fast as the Chinese can make them, and each one - included those as yet unfinished - has a long term contract waiting for it that will more than pay for its cost of manufacture...and then some!  You see, there's not enough manufacturing capabiility to build new rigs - especially offshore rigs - to keep up with demand.

So there you have it.  Not enough rigs and not enough capacity to build new ones.  Can you now see why lease acreage is not the problem?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #847 on: September 05, 2008, 10:38:48 am »
Which is a nifty rhetorical trick but doesn't address the thrust of McCain's point which is that Obama's message of hope is mostly an empty promise.

Promising to raise taxes, expand government, socialize healthcare and appease dictators is not hope in my book.

Here we are folks!  The American Dream in action!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #848 on: September 05, 2008, 10:39:24 am »
Not as long as people who were voting for McCain (disaffected Hilary supporters, for example) are scared away from voting for McCain because of Palin.  Riddle me this, what voters will Sarah Palin bring in?  The hard right?  They were already stuck with McCain or a third party.   This might win a few of them back, but I'd say it's a net loss because there is no way Hilary's supporters will vote on the ticket with Palin.

And riddle me this: how is Palin any more aligned with the hard right than Obama and Biden are aligned with the hard left? Their voting records are among the most liberal in the Senate. Obama couldn't bring himself to vote against a near-unanimously supported law banning outright infanticide. They opposed the surge in favor of arguing for withdrawal and surrender. Obama's pushing the dim-bulb enery policies of the '70s as if the solar and wind revolutions are just around the corner. These guys are McGovernites in moderate's clothing, at best.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #849 on: September 05, 2008, 10:41:38 am »
Here we are folks!  The American Dream in action!

Maybe not the American dream, but certainly Obama's dream. No wonder Michelle Obama has never been proud of her country until now.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #850 on: September 05, 2008, 10:42:03 am »
And she's wrong on the windfall profits tax, by the way. The effect of that tax on discouraging exploration and production in Alaska should be a lesson against trying the same thing nationally.

But she still did it.  Social conservative, fiscally liberal.

And the tax may have discouraged E&P in Alaska, but not elsewhere.  See my other answer about the capacity cruncn in the rig market.  There aren't rigs lying idle in Alaska because of the tax situation, they're hard at work somewhere else.  Probably Canada, which supplies over 50% of the US' foreign oil.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #851 on: September 05, 2008, 10:44:51 am »
And riddle me this: how is Palin any more aligned with the hard right than Obama and Biden are aligned with the hard left? Their voting records are among the most liberal in the Senate. Obama couldn't bring himself to vote against a near-unanimously supported law banning outright infanticide. They opposed the surge in favor of arguing for withdrawal and surrender. Obama's pushing the dim-bulb enery policies of the '70s as if the solar and wind revolutions are just around the corner. These guys are McGovernites in moderate's clothing, at best.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #852 on: September 05, 2008, 10:45:07 am »
On the Republican side, they claim that we have to throw open ever available piece of acreage to get oil flowing.  I'm all for that, but considering that about 80% of the existing leases awarded remain undrilled means that opening up new leases will not increase the drilling activity.  They are drilling as fast and as furiously as they can, but rigs have been running at 100% utilization for years now.  They don't have enough rigs to drill what they already have, so giving them more leases will just mean more undrilled leases on the books.

I'm a proponent of drilling and I'm not too worried about the "environmentally safe" objections.  But pushing for new leases now is a red herring.  Giving oil companies subsidies to help them drill is a red herring.  There simply aren't enough rigs  - nor experienced crews to run them - to drill any more than is currently being done.

Do you really think, with oil over $100/barrel, that there are serviceable rigs just lying around with nothing to do? I have a client who put in an order for over 100 new land rigs (from China) over the next 7 years.  They are coming off the line as fast as the Chinese can make them, and each one - included those as yet unfinished - has a long term contract waiting for it that will more than pay for its cost of manufacture...and then some!  You see, there's not enough manufacturing capabiility to build new rigs - especially offshore rigs - to keep up with demand.

So there you have it.  Not enough rigs and not enough capacity to build new ones.  Can you now see why lease acreage is not the problem?

This assumes that all lease acreage is equally attractive, that if some acreage is currently not under development, that means no more acreage is needed. Of course, not all acreage is equally attractive. Some acreage is more likely to contain hydrocarbons and may be more efficiently developed than other acreage.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #853 on: September 05, 2008, 10:45:20 am »
And the people responding rabidly like Chuck did above just show their asses when they devolve into the fishnets stuff.

Fuck you, Arky. I'm simply stating what anyone who's not sucking on the Republican teat (or whatever your favorite appendage may be) can plainly see. Palin's a whore. And given the fact that most politicians on the national stage are whores it would not be a noteworthy issue if she weren't masquerading as some sort of anti-establishment crusader. She's not fooling anyone.

[Sorry for the edit - my browser flipped out for a second.]
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #854 on: September 05, 2008, 10:48:00 am »
I love the smell of Hannity in the morning...it smells like...

Oh, is the Daily Kos directive today to paint everybody as Shawn Hannity? Which day does Rush Limbaugh get? Is Monday Bill O'Reilly day?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #855 on: September 05, 2008, 10:50:03 am »
Fuck you, Arky. I'm simply stating what anyone who's not sucking on the Republican teat (or whatever your favorite appendage may be) can plainly see. Palin's a whore. And given the fact that most politicians on the national stage are whores it would not be a noteworthy issue if she weren't masquerading as some sort of anti-establishment crusader. She's not fooling anyone.

[Sorry for the edit - my browser flipped out for a second.]

Stay classy there, Chuck. "Fuck you," "fishnets" and "whoring?" Is that all you got? This conversation was relatively civil until you chimed in. I'll try not to file this post as representative of everyone who opposes Palin, since most everybody else has managed to do it without showing his ass.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #856 on: September 05, 2008, 10:50:24 am »
Not as long as people who were voting for McCain (disaffected Hilary supporters, for example) are scared away from voting for McCain because of Palin.  Riddle me this, what voters will Sarah Palin bring in?  The hard right?  They were already stuck with McCain or a third party.   This might win a few of them back, but I'd say it's a net loss because there is no way Hilary's supporters will vote on the ticket with Palin.

Those who were going to vote for McCain aren't going to go away because of Palin.  They know who he is.  Palin helped him solidfy the right, no question.  There were a large enough number of righties that were going to stay home rather than vote if he had chosen a moderate that there was no way he could have won.  Palin got him that block.  Hillary supporters are mostly voting Democratic and those that aren't may or may not vote for McCain but that number won't win or lose him the election.

IMO, the voters that are undecided are mostly made up of people who aren't sure if McCain is change enough from Bush and if Obama really is ready to lead.  As long as Obama's people are nipping at Palin they aren't showing the voters that Obama is ready.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #857 on: September 05, 2008, 10:51:30 am »
Fuck you, Arky. I'm simply stating what anyone who's not sucking on the Republican teat (or whatever your favorite appendage may be) can plainly see. Palin's a whore. And given the fact that most politicians on the national stage are whores it would not be a noteworthy issue if she weren't masquerading as some sort of anti-establishment crusader. She's not fooling anyone.

[Sorry for the edit - my browser flipped out for a second.]

There's no call for fuck bombs directed at specific people. Keep some decorum, I don't care who you're for.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #858 on: September 05, 2008, 10:54:08 am »
This assumes that all lease acreage is equally attractive, that if some acreage is currently not under development, that means no more acreage is needed. Of course, not all acreage is equally attractive. Some acreage is more likely to contain hydrocarbons and may be more efficiently developed than other acreage.

I'm not "assuming" anything.  I'm telling you what I know from 25 years of working in the oil service sector.  You are "assuming" that between the government and the oil industry, they've overlooked a shitload of black gold somewhere.

The Federal government sells leases to the oil industry.  They've sold them the best ones already.  There is likely to be oil in the areas not yet opened up for drilling, but there isn't an ocean of oil under Florida or California just waiting for Jed Clampett to come along.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #859 on: September 05, 2008, 10:54:54 am »
I will fight to the death to support chuck's right to wear fishnets anytime he damn well pleases.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #860 on: September 05, 2008, 10:55:32 am »
Oh, is the Daily Kos directive today to paint everybody as Shawn Hannity? Which day does Rush Limbaugh get? Is Monday Bill O'Reilly day?

He ya go.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #861 on: September 05, 2008, 10:56:59 am »
And riddle me this: how is Palin any more aligned with the hard right than Obama and Biden are aligned with the hard left? Their voting records are among the most liberal in the Senate. Obama couldn't bring himself to vote against a near-unanimously supported law banning outright infanticide. They opposed the surge in favor of arguing for withdrawal and surrender. Obama's pushing the dim-bulb enery policies of the '70s as if the solar and wind revolutions are just around the corner. These guys are McGovernites in moderate's clothing, at best.

You can read about Palin's ascent to power if you really want to.  She ran for mayor as a Republican in a town where candidates did not previously have party affiliations.  She beat the partisan drums of abortion and gun rights, two issues largely irrelevant to stewardship of the town, and won a crushing victory.  And it's no different now-she's a cheerleader for these hard-right issues.  "Energizing the base," as it's called.  

And please, drop the faux-outrage about Obama and the "infanticide" law.  If you've never heard of a poison pill, then you probably shouldn't be discussing politics.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #862 on: September 05, 2008, 10:58:14 am »
I will fight to the death to support chuck's right to wear fishnets anytime he damn well pleases.

I'll buy a ticket.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #863 on: September 05, 2008, 10:58:51 am »
Fuck you, Arky. I'm simply stating what anyone who's not sucking on the Republican teat (or whatever your favorite appendage may be) can plainly see. Palin's a whore. And given the fact that most politicians on the national stage are whores it would not be a noteworthy issue if she weren't masquerading as some sort of anti-establishment crusader. She's not fooling anyone.

[Sorry for the edit - my browser flipped out for a second.]

So this was the edited version?  You might want to reconsider your approach.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #864 on: September 05, 2008, 10:59:54 am »
You can read about Palin's ascent to power if you really want to.  She ran for mayor as a Republican in a town where candidates did not previously have party affiliations.  She beat the partisan drums of abortion and gun rights, two issues largely irrelevant to stewardship of the town, and won a crushing victory.  And it's no different now-she's a cheerleader for these hard-right issues.  "Energizing the base," as it's called.  

She also left the mayor's office with the town $20mm in debt.  That's quite a lot for a burg of only 9,000 people.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #865 on: September 05, 2008, 11:00:10 am »
He ya go.

It vould appear you are projecting masculinity onto Arky as eef your own masculinity is unvanted or undesirable.

Zat vill be $150.00.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #866 on: September 05, 2008, 11:00:43 am »
She also left the mayor's office with the town $20mm in debt.  That's quite a lot for a burg of only 9,000 people.

I am also assuming these numbers are wrong.  Arky is welcome to correct them.  Did she spend $12 million to get elected?  And only received 1100 votes? 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #867 on: September 05, 2008, 11:02:52 am »
I'll buy a ticket.

Fuck you both. No, I mean thank you both. THANK you both! Yes. Yes, fishnets. They're quite fetching, what?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #868 on: September 05, 2008, 11:03:21 am »
I'm not "assuming" anything.  I'm telling you what I know from 25 years of working in the oil service sector.  You are "assuming" that between the government and the oil industry, they've overlooked a shitload of black gold somewhere.

The Federal government sells leases to the oil industry.  They've sold them the best ones already.  There is likely to be oil in the areas not yet opened up for drilling, but there isn't an ocean of oil under Florida or California just waiting for Jed Clampett to come along.

Right. But that doesn't mean there aren't leases currently off-limits that are better prospects than leases currently available.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #869 on: September 05, 2008, 11:04:49 am »
Right. But that doesn't mean there aren't leases currently off-limits that are better prospects than leases currently available.

Yes, of course, you know better than the professionals who've been doing this for over a century.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #870 on: September 05, 2008, 11:04:56 am »
Those who were going to vote for McCain aren't going to go away because of Palin.  They know who he is.  Palin helped him solidfy the right, no question.  There were a large enough number of righties that were going to stay home rather than vote if he had chosen a moderate that there was no way he could have won.  Palin got him that block.  Hillary supporters are mostly voting Democratic and those that aren't may or may not vote for McCain but that number won't win or lose him the election.

IMO, the voters that are undecided are mostly made up of people who aren't sure if McCain is change enough from Bush and if Obama really is ready to lead.  As long as Obama's people are nipping at Palin they aren't showing the voters that Obama is ready.

McCain used to have a lot of support from Democrats and swing voters, and he would have gotten a lot of their support in 2000.  When he started moving to the right in the last couple of years in order to make himself seem more right-wing he lost much of that support.  Still, I think there were plenty of disaffected Hillary supporters that would have voted for him based on his past record, and the experience issue.  Now that Palin is on the ticket, I think he's lost their support.  

You seem to think Palin on the ticket is a net win for McCain, we differ on that.  I think that particularly in battleground states, he has lost just about all of the Hillary supporters.  He may have gotten a few more hard-right voters to come out, but all in all it seems like a big mistake to me.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #871 on: September 05, 2008, 11:05:17 am »
I'm not "assuming" anything.  I'm telling you what I know from 25 years of working in the oil service sector.  You are "assuming" that between the government and the oil industry, they've overlooked a shitload of black gold somewhere.

The Federal government sells leases to the oil industry.  They've sold them the best ones already.  There is likely to be oil in the areas not yet opened up for drilling, but there isn't an ocean of oil under Florida or California just waiting for Jed Clampett to come along.

Over 53,000 wells were drilled, on and offshore in 2007. http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/e_ertw0_xwc0_nus_cA.htm Drill here, drill now?  We're gonna John, but you're standing on our spot.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #872 on: September 05, 2008, 11:05:41 am »
Right. But that doesn't mean there aren't leases currently off-limits that are better prospects than leases currently available.

You mean we should let them look for oil somewhere that there might actually be oil?  What a novel approach.  Sort of like looking for your car keys down the dark alley where you lost them, rather than under the lamp post where it is easier to see.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #873 on: September 05, 2008, 11:05:50 am »
He ya go.

Can we introduce a new term, wikicrutch, to describe a lame reference to Wikipedia as a substitute for an actual argument?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #874 on: September 05, 2008, 11:08:07 am »
Fuck you both. No, I mean thank you both. THANK you both! Yes. Yes, fishnets. They're quite fetching, what?

I just wanted to see your legs.  Will you also wear heels?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #875 on: September 05, 2008, 11:08:43 am »
You can read about Palin's ascent to power if you really want to.  She ran for mayor as a Republican in a town where candidates did not previously have party affiliations.  She beat the partisan drums of abortion and gun rights, two issues largely irrelevant to stewardship of the town, and won a crushing victory.  And it's no different now-she's a cheerleader for these hard-right issues.  "Energizing the base," as it's called.  

And please, drop the faux-outrage about Obama and the "infanticide" law.  If you've never heard of a poison pill, then you probably shouldn't be discussing politics.

Yes, she's right-wing. Big surprise. Whoopty-doo. Some people won't vote for her because of it. Some will. Same as Obama and Biden appeal to the left.

Obama's vote speaks for itself. There's not a better example of a more extreme vote on the abortion issue. If that doesn't bother you, that's your prerogative.


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #876 on: September 05, 2008, 11:08:55 am »
They're keeping Palin away from the media for a reason.  She starts airing her views during interviews and she's no longer the cute reformer from Alaska.  She'll turn in to Mike Huckabee without a penis.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #877 on: September 05, 2008, 11:10:38 am »
It vould appear you are projecting masculinity onto Arky as eef your own masculinity is unvanted or undesirable.

Zat vill be $150.00.

Perhaps Limey and I should have a contest to see who looks more masculine wearing fishnets.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #878 on: September 05, 2008, 11:12:12 am »
Yes, of course, you know better than the professionals who've been doing this for over a century.

If they're that old, they're probably pretty senile at this point. Do they drink my milkshake?

You're not the only one here who works in the energy industry, you know?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #879 on: September 05, 2008, 11:12:46 am »
You mean we should let them look for oil somewhere that there might actually be oil?  What a novel approach.  Sort of like looking for your car keys down the dark alley where you lost them, rather than under the lamp post where it is easier to see.

Brilliant!!  I'm amazed the folks at ExxonMobil and Chevron never thought of this.

You people are assuming that you are smarter than those who run the oil industry, while offering nothing of substance to support your claims.

They run seismic all over the fucking place, before they bid on a drilling lease.  This isn't done in the dark with a bottle of tequila, some darts and a map of the United States.  It's done using science and technology and it's done by people who know what the fuck they are doing.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #880 on: September 05, 2008, 11:12:58 am »
I just wanted to see your legs.  Will you also wear heels?

Well, shit, now it's getting sort of personal. If Arky's fit me, OK.

Would you think less of Arky if you knew he liked to drive home from work wearing a pair of clear-soled high heels?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #881 on: September 05, 2008, 11:14:41 am »
McCain used to have a lot of support from Democrats and swing voters, and he would have gotten a lot of their support in 2000.  When he started moving to the right in the last couple of years in order to make himself seem more right-wing he lost much of that support.  Still, I think there were plenty of disaffected Hillary supporters that would have voted for him based on his past record, and the experience issue.  Now that Palin is on the ticket, I think he's lost their support.  

You seem to think Palin on the ticket is a net win for McCain, we differ on that.  I think that particularly in battleground states, he has lost just about all of the Hillary supporters.  He may have gotten a few more hard-right voters to come out, but all in all it seems like a big mistake to me.

It's certainly a gamble. But then I think McCain had to gamble to even have a chance to win. I don't think Mitt Romney would help him get it done.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #882 on: September 05, 2008, 11:16:02 am »
They're keeping Palin away from the media for a reason.  She starts airing her views during interviews and she's no longer the cute reformer from Alaska.  She'll turn in to Mike Huckabee without a penis.

She's probably more conservative and less populist than Huckabee.

Since Obama and McGovern both have penises, how else do you tell the difference?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #883 on: September 05, 2008, 11:16:16 am »
Careful.  Dangerously close to getting back on topic.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #884 on: September 05, 2008, 11:17:20 am »
You people are assuming that you are smarter than those who run the oil industry, while offering nothing of substance to support your claims.
No.  Not at all.  I am quite confident that those who run the industry focus on the best available spots for exploration.  However, the politicians as a group, in whose intelligence, understanding, wisdom & integrity I have zero confidence, are the ones who determine availabilty.  

And to the thrust of your argument, if the oil companies do not want to drill where they are currently prohibited from drilling, what possible reason would there be to continue the prohibition?  They certainly are not going to spend all that money to make a political point!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #885 on: September 05, 2008, 11:17:39 am »
Well, shit, now it's getting sort of personal. If Arky's fit me, OK.

Would you think less of Arky if you knew he liked to drive home from work wearing a pair of clear-soled high heels?

I only wear that type of footwear at work, Chuck.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #886 on: September 05, 2008, 11:18:38 am »
I only wear that type of footwear at work, Chuck.

I forgot, you're a lawyer.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #887 on: September 05, 2008, 11:20:13 am »
She's probably more conservative and less populist than Huckabee.

Which is why she's not doing interviews. 

Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #888 on: September 05, 2008, 11:21:50 am »
Yes, she's right-wing. Big surprise. Whoopty-doo. Some people won't vote for her because of it. Some will. Same as Obama and Biden appeal to the left.

What I'm saying is she gets elected by repeating right-wing talking points.  She is a political opportunist that does not seem to grasp the concept of stewardship.

Quote
Obama's vote speaks for itself. There's not a better example of a more extreme vote on the abortion issue. If that doesn't bother you, that's your prerogative.

Again, either you're being disingenuous about the true motives of the bill (which were not to prevent infanticide), or you don't understand what a poison pill is.  Either way, I don't care to debate with someone who's either dishonest or ignorant of one of the oldest dirty tricks in the book.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #889 on: September 05, 2008, 11:23:56 am »
McCain used to have a lot of support from Democrats and swing voters, and he would have gotten a lot of their support in 2000.  When he started moving to the right in the last couple of years in order to make himself seem more right-wing he lost much of that support.  Still, I think there were plenty of disaffected Hillary supporters that would have voted for him based on his past record, and the experience issue.  Now that Palin is on the ticket, I think he's lost their support.  

You seem to think Palin on the ticket is a net win for McCain, we differ on that.  I think that particularly in battleground states, he has lost just about all of the Hillary supporters.  He may have gotten a few more hard-right voters to come out, but all in all it seems like a big mistake to me.

You underestimate the number of conservatives who were willing to stay home.

Hillary supporters' votes have always been more important to Obama's chances than McCain's.  Obama has plenty after the DNC last week.  There just aren't that many disaffected Hillary supporters that are open to McCain to make a difference for him.

The polls seem to say Palin is not hurting him.  Obama needs to make this Obama v. McCain/Bush and minimize the attention paid to Palin.  McCain has to show he's a better leader than Bush and that Obama is all hat no cattle.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #890 on: September 05, 2008, 11:26:24 am »
No.  Not at all.  I am quite confident that those who run the industry focus on the best available spots for exploration.  However, the politicians as a group, in whose intelligence, understanding, wisdom & integrity I have zero confidence, are the ones who determine availabilty.  

And to the thrust of your argument, if the oil companies do not want to drill where they are currently prohibited from drilling, what possible reason would there be to continue the prohibition?  They certainly are not going to spend all that money to make a political point!

Oh dear.  So you think the government, run by oil industry types as it has been for the last 8 years, has been sitting on acreage that the industry knows has money-spinning plays under it.  Do you not imagine that the oil industry might use some of its many lobbyists to ask for a crack at a solid bit of real estate?

The bottom line is that all the easy oil has been found.  What's left is hard, and they're looking as hard as they can to find as much as possible because it helps fuel those record profits.  There isn't a magical, never ending reservoir kept hidden by a secret cabal of manatees working in cahoots with Greenpeace and Nancy Pelosi.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #891 on: September 05, 2008, 11:27:08 am »
You underestimate the number of conservatives who were willing to stay home.

Hillary supporters' votes have always been more important to Obama's chances than McCain's.  Obama has plenty after the DNC last week.  There just aren't that many disaffected Hillary supporters that are open to McCain to make a difference for him.

The polls seem to say Palin is not hurting him.  Obama needs to make this Obama v. McCain/Bush and minimize the attention paid to Palin.  McCain has to show he's a better leader than Bush and that Obama is all hat no cattle.

I just don't see 'conservatives' staying home, no matter who was on the ticket. They would rather see Obama elected than get at least part of what they're hoping for?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #892 on: September 05, 2008, 11:28:49 am »
I just don't see 'conservatives' staying home, no matter who was on the ticket. They would rather see Obama elected than get at least part of what they're hoping for?

They'll get them revved up over abortion and gay marriage.  They'll show, they always do.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #893 on: September 05, 2008, 11:29:18 am »
Which is why she's not doing interviews. 



and might just be headed back to Alaska to get her affairs in order, spend time with her son (and pull all nighters with tutors)

Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #894 on: September 05, 2008, 11:32:52 am »
I just don't see 'conservatives' staying home, no matter who was on the ticket. They would rather see Obama elected than get at least part of what they're hoping for?

Yes.  Then in 4 years get the Presidential candidate they want.  I firmly believe that a great number of conservatives believe that a President Obama will fall flat on his face and lose the confidence of the vast majority of voters within 4 years.  That President Clinton couldn't win a majority of votes in 1996 despite an energized economy and no dominant foreign policy problems fuels the conservative's belief.  Combine that with the belief that Obama is all fluff, and they see a reversion in 2012 to Republicanism in the White House.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #895 on: September 05, 2008, 11:34:26 am »
They'll get them revved up over abortion and gay marriage.  They'll show, they always do.

They didn't in '92 for Bush 1 and '96 for Dole.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #896 on: September 05, 2008, 11:38:07 am »
Brilliant!!  I'm amazed the folks at ExxonMobil and Chevron never thought of this.

You people are assuming that you are smarter than those who run the oil industry, while offering nothing of substance to support your claims.

They run seismic all over the fucking place, before they bid on a drilling lease.  This isn't done in the dark with a bottle of tequila, some darts and a map of the United States.  It's done using science and technology and it's done by people who know what the fuck they are doing.

Your apparent assumption that you are the only person who works with or knows anyone in the oil and gas industry is curious given that you live in Houston, Texas.

And your contention that the oil and gas industry doesn't see a need for additional leases is flat-out wrong. The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil and gas industry, has the following to say:

http://www.api.org/policy/exploration/expanded-access.cfm


Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #897 on: September 05, 2008, 11:39:40 am »
I forgot, you're a lawyer.

I expect more than $1s in my g-string.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #898 on: September 05, 2008, 11:40:43 am »
I just don't see 'conservatives' staying home, no matter who was on the ticket. They would rather see Obama elected than get at least part of what they're hoping for?

I agree with you, but a lot of them don't. There are a lot of perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good voters out there.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #899 on: September 05, 2008, 11:43:02 am »
I agree with you, but a lot of them don't. There are a lot of perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good voters out there.

What does "perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good" mean?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #900 on: September 05, 2008, 11:43:15 am »
Careful.  Dangerously close to getting back on topic.

Yeah, stop that.  Go back to the fishnets and heels.  Preferably stilettos.  And can we add a stripper pole? 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #901 on: September 05, 2008, 11:44:20 am »
What I'm saying is she gets elected by repeating right-wing talking points.  She is a political opportunist that does not seem to grasp the concept of stewardship.

How is expressing your beliefs to get elected opportunistic? It beats hiding them like Obama has done on occasion.

Quote
Again, either you're being disingenuous about the true motives of the bill (which were not to prevent infanticide), or you don't understand what a poison pill is.  Either way, I don't care to debate with someone who's either dishonest or ignorant of one of the oldest dirty tricks in the book.

I'm being neither dishonest nor ignorant. The law passed by vast majorities. That's a pretty extreme position to vote against it, don't you think? Why is it a dirty trick to point that out?

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #902 on: September 05, 2008, 11:46:15 am »
What does "perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good" mean?

If they can't get perfection, they won't settle for good enough. If they can't get ideological purity, they won't vote for the guy. I think there's a sliding scale. McCain wasn't my first choice in the primaries, but I prefer him to Obama, so I'm willing to vote for him. Some people can't bring themselves to do that.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #903 on: September 05, 2008, 11:47:27 am »
They'll get them revved up over abortion and gay marriage.  They'll show, they always do.

Not necessarily.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #904 on: September 05, 2008, 11:47:43 am »
What does "perfect-as-the-enemy-of-the-good" mean?

It means that if you vote for Nader instead of Gore, Bush gets elected president.  (or something like that).  

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #905 on: September 05, 2008, 11:47:57 am »
If they can't get perfection, they won't settle for good enough. If they can't get ideological purity, they won't vote for the guy. I think there's a sliding scale. McCain wasn't my first choice in the primaries, but I prefer him to Obama, so I'm willing to vote for him. Some people can't bring themselves to do that.

Who was your preference, out of curiosity.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #906 on: September 05, 2008, 11:51:07 am »
Oh dear.  So you think the government, run by oil industry types as it has been for the last 8 years, has been sitting on acreage that the industry knows has money-spinning plays under it.  Do you not imagine that the oil industry might use some of its many lobbyists to ask for a crack at a solid bit of real estate?

The bottom line is that all the easy oil has been found.  What's left is hard, and they're looking as hard as they can to find as much as possible because it helps fuel those record profits.  There isn't a magical, never ending reservoir kept hidden by a secret cabal of manatees working in cahoots with Greenpeace and Nancy Pelosi.

Why is the oil and gas industry assocation pushing to open up more leases?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #907 on: September 05, 2008, 11:52:44 am »
I feel like we're really accomplishing something here. As usual, 50% of the argument in this thread is from two people. One  will not be voting, because he can't. The other will be voting McCain no matter what anyone argues (which is absolutely fine), and will be doing so in a state in which the outcome of the electoral college votes is already a foregone conclusion. But if we all keep typing forever, someone is definitely going to win this thing, I can feel it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #908 on: September 05, 2008, 11:53:59 am »
Who was your preference, out of curiosity.

I was undecided between Romney and Giuliani. Romney was too polished, too fake. I like Giuliani on national security and effective administration, but not on some other issues. Thompson appealed to me ideologically but is too comatose to be a viable candidate. I would probably put McCain behind them and by far over Huckabee, whom I think is too populist.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #909 on: September 05, 2008, 11:55:49 am »
I feel like we're really accomplishing something here. As usual, 50% of the argument in this thread is from two people. One  will not be voting, because he can't. The other will be voting McCain no matter what anyone argues (which is absolutely fine), and will be doing so in a state in which the outcome of the electoral college votes is already a foregone conclusion. But if we all keep typing forever, someone is definitely going to win this thing, I can feel it.

So, are you saying that Limey and I should simply get a room?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #910 on: September 05, 2008, 11:58:43 am »
Is Limey still a subject of the Crown?  I did not know that!

I think we should let British people vote in our elections anyway, they're close enough.  They deserve at least as many electoral votes as Puerto Rico.

I feel like we're really accomplishing something here. As usual, 50% of the argument in this thread is from two people. One  will not be voting, because he can't. The other will be voting McCain no matter what anyone argues (which is absolutely fine), and will be doing so in a state in which the outcome of the electoral college votes is already a foregone conclusion. But if we all keep typing forever, someone is definitely going to win this thing, I can feel it.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #911 on: September 05, 2008, 12:00:37 pm »
Is Limey still a subject of the Crown?  I did not know that!

I think we should let British people vote in our elections anyway, they're close enough.  They deserve at least as many electoral votes as Puerto Rico.


Are you aware Puerto Rico has no electoral votes?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #912 on: September 05, 2008, 12:02:44 pm »
So, are you saying that Limey and I should simply get a room?

No, this room's fine, it's got nice big windows. I have my popcorn and a 6-pack, and I've settled in. Let's see if can hit page 60 before quittin' time today.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #913 on: September 05, 2008, 12:14:25 pm »
Are you aware Puerto Rico has no electoral votes?

Yes, and I'm also aware that it's Progress Island!
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #914 on: September 05, 2008, 02:03:25 pm »
Brilliant!!  I'm amazed the folks at ExxonMobil and Chevron never thought of this.

You people are assuming that you are smarter than those who run the oil industry, while offering nothing of substance to support your claims.

They run seismic all over the fucking place, before they bid on a drilling lease.  This isn't done in the dark with a bottle of tequila, some darts and a map of the United States.  It's done using science and technology and it's done by people who know what the fuck they are doing.

As a matter of fact, at one time I ran some of that seismic and can attest, a good 50% don't know what the fuck they are doing.  There is alot of data processing, filtering, re-processing, re-filtering etc... before anyone even looks at the data, let alone any type of imagining from merged fold (sorry for the seismo-terminology).  That was the extent of my involvement but learned, during my time in this field there are several different standards for seismic data and a number of varying theories on interpretation of said data that, from the people I spoke to, it's a giant SWAG approach more often than not.  That's why it's so critical that when they do strike, they manage that well with absolute care. 

Not to mention, just because you can extract oil and obtain a certain yield doesn't mean that yield is constant and just because you strike a large reserve doesn't mean you'll pump most of it out.  It's a tricky business, harvesting oil...
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #915 on: September 05, 2008, 02:07:02 pm »
As a matter of fact, at one time I ran some of that seismic and can attest, a good 50% don't know what the fuck they are doing.  There is alot of data processing, filtering, re-processing, re-filtering etc... before anyone even looks at the data, let alone any type of imagining from merged fold (sorry for the seismo-terminology).  That was the extent of my involvement but learned, during my time in this field there are several different standards for seismic data and a number of varying theories on interpretation of said data that, from the people I spoke to, it's a giant SWAG approach more often than not.  That's why it's so critical that when they do strike, they manage that well with absolute care. 

Not to mention, just because you can extract oil and obtain a certain yield doesn't mean that yield is constant and just because you strike a large reserve doesn't mean you'll pump most of it out.  It's a tricky business, harvesting oil...

3D Seismic?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #916 on: September 05, 2008, 02:07:55 pm »
3D Seismic?

Yessir....  And as an IT guy having to manually build filters using monotonous amounts of sample data etc... to see a full 3D plot of months of work was pretty damn cool.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 02:10:09 pm by S.P. Rodriguez »
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #917 on: September 05, 2008, 02:11:34 pm »
Yessir....  And as an IT guy having to manually build filters using monotonous amounts of sample data etc... to see a full 3D plot of months of work was pretty damn cool.

It is cool.  Beats giving a good thump and putting your ear to the ground.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #918 on: September 05, 2008, 02:14:10 pm »
This isn't done in the dark with a bottle of tequila, some darts and a map of the United States.


Unless your name is Pickens, T. Boone.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #919 on: September 05, 2008, 02:33:09 pm »
They didn't in '92 for Bush 1 and '96 for Dole.

They came out in '92, just not for Bush or Clinton.

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #920 on: September 05, 2008, 02:34:49 pm »
It is cool.  Beats giving a good thump and putting your ear to the ground.

I worked in the gulf, not on land.  However, since you mentioned "energy source" (the thump), we had two tandem arrays of pneumatic pistons, consisting of about 16 guns each that could push anywhere from 1200psi to 2000psi (if I recall correctly, it's been about 10 yrs) to generate a syncrhonized burst of sound .  The "ear" part gets a little more complicated as we were always in motion. 

oh, and to turn the subject back to topic:  Rasmussen has stats...(take it for what it's worth)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/rasmussen/20080905/pl_rasmussen/palinpower20080905
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Jacksonian

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #921 on: September 05, 2008, 02:48:28 pm »
They came out in '92, just not for Bush or Clinton.

Right.  But the original assertion was that they would show up for the Republican ticket.  They didn't do that.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #922 on: September 05, 2008, 02:52:00 pm »
It is cool.  Beats giving a good thump and putting your ear to the ground.

It's not so cool when they set off numerous charges 500 yards from your home, causing a violent shock that muddied our water wells and cracked my fuckin' ceramic tile floor. Bastards.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #923 on: September 05, 2008, 03:19:29 pm »
Color me surprised:

McCain draws higher ratings than Obama.

I didn't think he'd come close.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #924 on: September 05, 2008, 03:24:36 pm »
I just don't see 'conservatives' staying home, no matter who was on the ticket. They would rather see Obama elected than get at least part of what they're hoping for?

Yes, but the selection of Palin and her subsequent splash onto the scene allow for more plausible options to be added to the Republican's campaign strategy than merely putting a dark hat on the opponent--a dark hat four sizes too big, it would appear from the speeches in St. Paul.  

I mean, going into Sept/Oct trying to preach John McCain and (fill in the blank) as "a ticket conservatives could believe in" would have been a very daunting task, with or without the fear-mongering.  Most of the VP options bantered about seemed to do little to stir interest, at least in terms of trying to round up undecided votes or grow critical ground support...or making the opposition sound concerned.  It would have been the '96 Bob Dole Farewell Tour all over again with just about any of the choices that McCain was alleged to be considering, including Kay B. Hutchison.  

Well, along comes the odd selection of the obscure Palin, and everything goes nuts for a weekend.  She and her family are forced to endure an onslaught of inquiries, allegations and WTF's (tip of cap to thread starter).  People in both parties start to wonder if McCain has lost his mind.....again.

When the rhetoric got damn near out of control by Sunday night, a few pundits began to speculate that the affront risked making a sympathetic character out of someone who wasn't necessarily sympathetic, a Wall Street Journal Editorial report, I'll admit, but I don't believe it was limited to them.  Dd her splash of a speech prove some of those folks "Nostradamic" or what?  

Now, the Republicans have a new star to help expand the appeal of their ticket to more conservative interests, while the Democrats have a second lightening rod to go with the "McCain=Bush" one they were already planning to hit 'til election day to comfort their constituencies.  With all these dynamics, it will be interesting to see how these two tickets go after the undecideds now.

I can't help but wonder if Hilary has already worked up her WANTS AND NEEDS list for the moment Obama decides to beg her back into this process more aggressively?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #925 on: September 05, 2008, 03:30:44 pm »
Yes, but the selection of Palin and her subsequent splash onto the scene allow for more plausible options to be added to the Republican's campaign strategy than merely putting a dark hat on the opponent--a dark hat four sizes too big, it would appear from the speeches in St. Paul.  

I mean, going into Sept/Oct trying to preach John McCain and (fill in the blank) as "a ticket conservatives could believe in" would have been a very daunting task, with or without the fear-mongering.  Most of the VP options bantered about seemed to do little to stir interest, at least in terms of trying to round up undecided votes or grow critical ground support...or making the opposition sound concerned.  It would have been the '96 Bob Dole Farewell Tour all over again with just about any of the choices that McCain was alleged to be considering, including Kay B. Hutchison.  

Well, along comes the odd selection of the obscure Palin, and everything goes nuts for a weekend.  She and her family are forced to endure an onslaught of inquiries, allegations and WTF's (tip of cap to thread starter).  People in both parties start to wonder if McCain has lost his mind.....again.

When the rhetoric got damn near out of control by Sunday night, a few pundits began to speculate that the affront risked making a sympathetic character out of someone who wasn't necessarily sympathetic, a Wall Street Journal Editorial report, I'll admit, but I don't believe it was limited to them.  Dd her splash of a speech prove some of those folks "Nostradamic" or what?  

Now, the Republicans have a new star to help expand the appeal of their ticket to more conservative interests, while the Democrats have a second lightening rod to go with the "McCain=Bush" one they were already planning to hit 'til election day to comfort their constituencies.  With all these dynamics, it will be interesting to see how these two tickets go after the undecideds now.

I can't help but wonder if Hilary has already worked up her WANTS AND NEEDS list for the moment Obama decides to beg her back into this process more aggressively?



That was astonishly coherent, with only one ellipses and CAPS spasm.  Well done.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #926 on: September 05, 2008, 03:32:09 pm »
I can't help but wonder if Hilary has already worked up her WANTS AND NEEDS list for the moment Obama decides to beg her back into this process more aggressively?

It must not have been that long: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/05/obama-camp-to-deploy-high-profile-female-surrogates/
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #927 on: September 05, 2008, 03:44:46 pm »
Color me surprised:

McCain draws higher ratings than Obama.

I didn't think he'd come close.

Having the NFL season opener as your lead-in doesn't hurt at all.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #928 on: September 05, 2008, 03:58:53 pm »
Color me surprised:

McCain draws higher ratings than Obama.

I didn't think he'd come close.

More the better I say.  I particularly like that the TV picture showed him against the green background again.  It was because he was in front of a big green lawn on the projection screen.   It was a picture of Walter Reed High School.  Looked like a big mansion behind him.  It was supposed to be Walter Reed Hospital.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #929 on: September 05, 2008, 04:03:22 pm »
Having the NFL season opener as your lead-in doesn't hurt at all.

I don't buy that.  Season opener was only on 1 network and the remote is just a spasm away.  Besides you don't think viewers didn't spend at least a few minutes during that dull second half cueing up the next program?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #930 on: September 05, 2008, 04:27:50 pm »
More the better I say.  I particularly like that the TV picture showed him against the green background again.  It was because he was in front of a big green lawn on the projection screen.   It was a picture of Walter Reed High School.  Looked like a big mansion behind him.  It was supposed to be Walter Reed Hospital.

The High School is a lot nicer looking. 

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #931 on: September 05, 2008, 04:34:09 pm »
The High School is a lot nicer looking. 

My mistake, that's a middle school, in North Hollywood. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #932 on: September 05, 2008, 04:39:48 pm »
My mistake, that's a middle school, in North Hollywood. 

In any case, WRAMC needs to borrow their landscaper.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #933 on: September 05, 2008, 05:56:52 pm »
I mean, going into Sept/Oct trying to preach John McCain and (fill in the blank) as "a ticket conservatives could believe in" would have been a very daunting task, with or without the fear-mongering.  Most of the VP options bantered about seemed to do little to stir interest, at least in terms of trying to round up undecided votes or grow critical ground support...or making the opposition sound concerned.  It would have been the '96 Bob Dole Farewell Tour all over again with just about any of the choices that McCain was alleged to be considering, including Kay B. Hutchison.


I'll just say this.  Had he picked Mitt Fucking Romney, next day I'd have been purchasing an assault rifle, and a bus ticket to the Twin Cities.

ybbodeus

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #934 on: September 05, 2008, 08:02:27 pm »
That was astonishly coherent, with only one ellipses and CAPS spasm.  Well done.

Seek the chair's permi...errrrrrr...the Bench's permission to revise but not extend my remarks to edit the "capspasm" and the two ellipses?

Regardless, I accept the backhanded compliment, given the tendency to date to receive less than glowing reviews here.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #935 on: September 05, 2008, 11:33:20 pm »
Why is the oil and gas industry assocation pushing to open up more leases?

Because more leases = greater estimated reserves = greater stock price.

Still doesn't change the fact that they've not got the rigs to drill the leases and, even if they did, it's 10 years before any oil hits the international market, not the US market, the international market.  Where it is a drop in the ocean and does fuck-all to change the price of a barrel.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #936 on: September 05, 2008, 11:35:02 pm »
I was undecided between Romney and Giuliani. Romney was too polished, too fake. I like Giuliani on national security and effective administration, but not on some other issues. Thompson appealed to me ideologically but is too comatose to be a viable candidate. I would probably put McCain behind them and by far over Huckabee, whom I think is too populist.

You're the only person I've heard who claims to have had a clue as to what Fred Thompson's ideology is/was.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #937 on: September 05, 2008, 11:37:32 pm »
Is Limey still a subject of the Crown?  I did not know that!

I think we should let British people vote in our elections anyway, they're close enough.  They deserve at least as many electoral votes as Puerto Rico.


I pay full taxes, but I can't vote because I haven't got my citizenship together because there's a question about overseas travel that I cannot answer because I travel a fuck of a lot and I don't know where I went or when I left for a couple of trips back in 1997.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #938 on: September 05, 2008, 11:40:27 pm »
As a matter of fact, at one time I ran some of that seismic and can attest, a good 50% don't know what the fuck they are doing.  There is alot of data processing, filtering, re-processing, re-filtering etc... before anyone even looks at the data, let alone any type of imagining from merged fold (sorry for the seismo-terminology).  That was the extent of my involvement but learned, during my time in this field there are several different standards for seismic data and a number of varying theories on interpretation of said data that, from the people I spoke to, it's a giant SWAG approach more often than not.  That's why it's so critical that when they do strike, they manage that well with absolute care. 

Not to mention, just because you can extract oil and obtain a certain yield doesn't mean that yield is constant and just because you strike a large reserve doesn't mean you'll pump most of it out.  It's a tricky business, harvesting oil...

I don't see how pointing out how difficult the oil game is, supports your argument that it's run by dumfucks.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #939 on: September 05, 2008, 11:50:31 pm »
3D Seismic?

3D seismic means that they pretty much always hit something.  It may not be commercial (at current prices) but it's something.  This is important to the insurance game, because, for example, the rating for well control insurance was based on a reasonable percentage of dusters, which for well control insurers is free money, but these days dusters very rarely occur.  If there's hydrocarbons under pressure, there's a risk of a blowout.  Also, they can park a rig in 10,000' of water, and drill into a cigarette packet buried 20,000' down, 5 miles to the side.

I have a client who owns the most powerful land rig in the world, and they use it to drill into an offshore reservoir...from a beach.  They drill down 5,000' and then make a 90 degree turn and go 30,000' horizontally.  You can look it up, they're very proud of themselves.  I handle insurance for Parker Drilling, the owner/operator of the rig, and for Exxon Neftegas, the operator of the field.

This isn't Daniel Day Lewis and a stack of wood, folks.  It's real science and real engineering done by really smart people (which is why I'm only in the service sector).
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #940 on: September 06, 2008, 01:06:56 am »
3D seismic means that they pretty much always hit something.  It may not be commercial (at current prices) but it's something.  This is important to the insurance game, because, for example, the rating for well control insurance was based on a reasonable percentage of dusters, which for well control insurers is free money, but these days dusters very rarely occur.  If there's hydrocarbons under pressure, there's a risk of a blowout.  Also, they can park a rig in 10,000' of water, and drill into a cigarette packet buried 20,000' down, 5 miles to the side.

I have a client who owns the most powerful land rig in the world, and they use it to drill into an offshore reservoir...from a beach.  They drill down 5,000' and then make a 90 degree turn and go 30,000' horizontally.  You can look it up, they're very proud of themselves.  I handle insurance for Parker Drilling, the owner/operator of the rig, and for Exxon Neftegas, the operator of the field.

This isn't Daniel Day Lewis and a stack of wood, folks.  It's real science and real engineering done by really smart people (which is why I'm only in the service sector).

I don't understand.  We should vote for Obama?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #941 on: September 06, 2008, 01:44:49 am »
I don't understand.  We should vote for Obama?

Vote for who you like, but don't base your decision on whether or not they support drilling in ANWR, Florida, California or anywhere else.

Actually, this whole topic is kinda moot since Palin laid out an energy plan that involves supporting all the same alternative or renewable energies as Obama.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #942 on: September 06, 2008, 07:01:45 am »
Also, they can park a rig in 10,000' of water, and drill into a cigarette packet buried 20,000' down, 5 miles to the side.


Who the fuck is going around burying cigarette packages 20,000 feet down?!?!?!?  Probably an ex-smoker. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #943 on: September 06, 2008, 10:50:31 am »
It's not so much the women who are labelled criminals as it is the women who die or are seriously injured when they are forced into the back alleys. 
Forced into back alleys? Should drugs be made legal since essentially we are forcing drug abusers into crack houses?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #944 on: September 06, 2008, 11:41:37 am »
Forced into back alleys? Should drugs be made legal since essentially we are forcing drug abusers into crack houses?

They are completely different issues and it's disingenious to create that comparison, but a lot of folks would answer your question in the affirmative.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #945 on: September 06, 2008, 01:31:42 pm »
You're the only person I've heard who claims to have had a clue as to what Fred Thompson's ideology is/was.

Limey, I would offer that it's along the lines of, "Man's Search for an Open Bar."  As a transplanted Tennesseean, I can assure you some form of that phrase to be the default ideology, the fallback position when all others are unknown.  I say "some form of", because depending upon the region (West, Central or East Tennessee), open bar could be replaced by "keg", "tailgate party" or "still."
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #946 on: September 06, 2008, 03:16:15 pm »
Forced into back alleys? Should drugs be made legal since essentially we are forcing drug abusers into crack houses?

Yes.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #947 on: September 06, 2008, 03:37:53 pm »
Because more leases = greater estimated reserves = greater stock price.

Still doesn't change the fact that they've not got the rigs to drill the leases and, even if they did, it's 10 years before any oil hits the international market, not the US market, the international market.  Where it is a drop in the ocean and does fuck-all to change the price of a barrel.

So are you arguing that none of the new leases would ever be explored or that they just wouldn't be explored in time to get oil to the market in less than 10 years? I guess their shareholders would be too stupid to realize that, right?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #948 on: September 06, 2008, 03:38:44 pm »
Vote for who you like, but don't base your decision on whether or not they support drilling in ANWR, Florida, California or anywhere else.

Actually, this whole topic is kinda moot since Palin laid out an energy plan that involves supporting all the same alternative or renewable energies as Obama.

To be done in 10 years, right?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #949 on: September 06, 2008, 03:40:52 pm »
They are completely different issues and it's disingenious to create that comparison, but a lot of folks would answer your question in the affirmative.

Why is it disingenuous, counselor? In both cases the argument is that the act shouldn't be made illegal because people will continue to commit the act and may harm themselves in doing so.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #950 on: September 06, 2008, 06:24:22 pm »
They are completely different issues and it's disingenious to create that comparison, but a lot of folks would answer your question in the affirmative.

Don't forget the aids babies born addicted to crack 'cause the mothers spent their abortion fund money on more crack instead of dry cleaning and they didn't have any spare coat hangers.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #951 on: September 06, 2008, 08:38:52 pm »
I pay full taxes, but I can't vote because I haven't got my citizenship together because there's a question about overseas travel that I cannot answer because I travel a fuck of a lot and I don't know where I went or when I left for a couple of trips back in 1997.

Isn't '97 when you went to Afghanistan?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #952 on: September 06, 2008, 08:45:16 pm »
I pay full taxes, but I can't vote because I haven't got my citizenship together because there's a question about overseas travel that I cannot answer because I travel a fuck of a lot and I don't know where I went or when I left for a couple of trips back in 1997.

You try to get access to your old credit card statements?  I had to do that a few years ago.  Citi was able to give me data from several years earlier
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #953 on: September 06, 2008, 09:11:24 pm »
I'll just say this.  Had he picked Mitt Fucking Romney, next day I'd have been purchasing an assault rifle, and a bus ticket to the Twin Cities.

And McCain and Romney would defend your right to do so!

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #954 on: September 06, 2008, 09:26:48 pm »
And McCain and Romney would defend your right to do so!

I'm sure. 

McCain, I don't care either way.  Romney, however, is Satan.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #955 on: September 06, 2008, 09:29:01 pm »
I'm sure. 

McCain, I don't care either way.  Romney, however, is Satan.

Got something against the LDS?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #956 on: September 06, 2008, 09:41:22 pm »
Don't forget the aids babies born addicted to crack 'cause the mothers spent their abortion fund money on more crack instead of dry cleaning and they didn't have any spare coat hangers.

Wow.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #957 on: September 06, 2008, 09:54:33 pm »
Got something against the LDS?


I tried it a couple of times in college, purple micro-dots I think, but it wasn't for me.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #958 on: September 07, 2008, 10:33:51 am »
Latter Day Satanists, huh?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #959 on: September 07, 2008, 12:03:12 pm »
Latter Day Satanists, huh?


Watch Romney in an interview sometime, when he is giving one of his evasive, condescendng, mealy-mouthed, duplicitious replies to whatever direct question he has been asked.  Not only can you see his eyes skimming around behind the nictitating membranes of his eyelids, but if he turns his head fast enough, a little too fast for the facade too follow, you can catch a glimpse of the lizard face behind his fake human one.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 12:05:22 pm by strosrays »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #960 on: September 07, 2008, 01:31:15 pm »
Watch Romney in an interview sometime, when he is giving one of his evasive, condescendng, mealy-mouthed, duplicitious replies to whatever direct question he has been asked.  Not only can you see his eyes skimming around behind the nictitating membranes of his eyelids, but if he turns his head fast enough, a little too fast for the facade too follow, you can catch a glimpse of the lizard face behind his fake human one.

Sounds like Hillary needs to get that same plastic surgery.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #961 on: September 07, 2008, 04:38:17 pm »
Sounds like Hillary needs to get that same plastic surgery.


Hillary, WTF?  You are now apparently entirely humorless.  Too bad. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #962 on: September 08, 2008, 09:59:01 am »
Why is it disingenuous, counselor? In both cases the argument is that the act shouldn't be made illegal because people will continue to commit the act and may harm themselves in doing so.

That's not the argument, but I suppose phrasing it that way makes you feel better about yourself.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #963 on: September 08, 2008, 10:03:54 am »
That's not the argument, but I suppose phrasing it that way makes you feel better about yourself.

Then please explain it to me.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #964 on: September 08, 2008, 10:14:08 am »
Then please explain it to me.

Basically, the criminal justice system might not be the best arena to address healthcare issues.
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Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #965 on: September 08, 2008, 10:15:00 am »
Isn't '97 when you went to Afghanistan?

That was '96.  '97 was Libya.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #966 on: September 08, 2008, 10:25:17 am »
Basically, the criminal justice system might not be the best arena to address healthcare issues.

I'm not pro-life, but can't you see that to Arky it's not a healthcare issue?
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #967 on: September 08, 2008, 11:23:55 am »
Basically, the criminal justice system might not be the best arena to address healthcare issues.

But whether you think the criminal justice system might not be the best arena to address healthcare issues has nothing to do with the validity of pointing out that our society criminalizes activities besides abortion that result in people doing harm to themselves trying to evade that criminalization.

Also, assuming it is a healthcare issue is begging the question, even if phrasing it that way makes you feel better about yourself.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #968 on: September 08, 2008, 03:28:25 pm »
Color me surprised:

McCain draws higher ratings than Obama.

I didn't think he'd come close.

I think it's pretty clear when you're looking at the right demographics.

McCain is leading the Brothers Who Own a Woodworking Business demographic, while Obama is still favored by Divorced Zookeeper Assistants, Corduroy Wearing Homosexuals, and Karoake Fishermen.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #969 on: September 09, 2008, 09:43:05 am »
Even the Wall St Journal is calling shenanigans,

At a rally today, Sen. McCain again asserted that Sen. Obama has requested nearly a billion in earmarks. In fact, the Illinois senator requested $311 million last year, according to the Associated Press, and none this year. In comparison, Gov. Palin has requested $750 million in her two years as governor -- which the AP says is the largest per-capita request in the nation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122090791901411709.html

At best, according to her partisans in regards the infamous bridge,"She did her part."    Generally though, even the WSJ is telling us that she grabbed all the pork she could get her hands on.  There's an old saying, "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #970 on: September 09, 2008, 09:45:32 am »
Even the Wall St Journal is calling shenanigans,

At a rally today, Sen. McCain again asserted that Sen. Obama has requested nearly a billion in earmarks. In fact, the Illinois senator requested $311 million last year, according to the Associated Press, and none this year. In comparison, Gov. Palin has requested $750 million in her two years as governor -- which the AP says is the largest per-capita request in the nation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122090791901411709.html

At best, according to her partisans in regards the infamous bridge,"She did her part."    Generally though, even the WSJ is telling us that she grabbed all the pork she could get her hands on.  There's an old saying, "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

Their editorial page is definitely conservative, but the WSJ news/reporting is not.  Just a few cents there.
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pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #971 on: September 09, 2008, 09:51:11 am »
Their editorial page is definitely conservative, but the WSJ news/reporting is not.  Just a few cents there.

They aint librul neither.  More "fact based" but since Rupert took over that has shifted a little too.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #972 on: September 09, 2008, 10:00:08 am »
Even the Wall St Journal is calling shenanigans,

At a rally today, Sen. McCain again asserted that Sen. Obama has requested nearly a billion in earmarks. In fact, the Illinois senator requested $311 million last year, according to the Associated Press, and none this year. In comparison, Gov. Palin has requested $750 million in her two years as governor -- which the AP says is the largest per-capita request in the nation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122090791901411709.html

At best, according to her partisans in regards the infamous bridge,"She did her part."    Generally though, even the WSJ is telling us that she grabbed all the pork she could get her hands on.  There's an old saying, "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

Apparently now there's more detailed debunking of the "thanks, but no thanks" claim which includes a YouTube clip of her, from June of this year, asking a church congregation to pray for the deliverance of the earmark money including the bridge project.  Also, the jet was put on ebay but not sold on ebay.  Twice.  She eventually offloaded it through a broker, which still means that it was sold but it doesn't carry the same punch as the half-truth about ebay.  Further, she didn't fire her chef, she transferred her to cook for the State Legislature.

Considering that she's already dissembling about her personal record, which is the only thing she's talked about so far, she may be the perfect replacement for Cheney in the VP's office.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #973 on: September 09, 2008, 10:03:17 am »
The backlash will come.  Followed by the backlash to the backlash - it's the circle of life, it's the wheel of fortune.

But it's to McCain's benefit that the comparison is no longer between him and Bush.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #974 on: September 09, 2008, 10:05:30 am »
Even the Wall St Journal is calling shenanigans,

At a rally today, Sen. McCain again asserted that Sen. Obama has requested nearly a billion in earmarks. In fact, the Illinois senator requested $311 million last year, according to the Associated Press, and none this year. In comparison, Gov. Palin has requested $750 million in her two years as governor -- which the AP says is the largest per-capita request in the nation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122090791901411709.html

At best, according to her partisans in regards the infamous bridge,"She did her part."    Generally though, even the WSJ is telling us that she grabbed all the pork she could get her hands on.  There's an old saying, "you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig".

I think, not know, that I heard or read a news report that had additional details this article lacks.  IIRC, and I might not, that the bridge cost estimate nearly doubled after she won election.  Also, I heard a report that McCain's camp was referring to Obama's work in the Illinois legislature as well when talking about the nearly $1 bil.  I could have been listening to a Republican partisan at the time though.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #975 on: September 09, 2008, 10:07:00 am »
The backlash will come.  Followed by the backlash to the backlash - it's the circle of life, it's the wheel of fortune.

But it's to McCain's benefit that the comparison is no longer between him and Bush.

They've just come out of the RNC convention, with everyone talking about Palin the same way that everyone was talking about Obama after the DNC convention.  The debates will be the next battleground, but both Obama and Biden were on the boob tube in recent days trying to reignite the McSame argument.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #976 on: September 09, 2008, 10:10:14 am »
I have foregone eating in order to dry-heave, rather than vomiting, through "The O'Reilly Factor"'s interviews of Obama.

O'Reilly stating that Obama is "not a wimp" is as close as I think he'll ever come to praising a liberal.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #977 on: September 09, 2008, 10:11:37 am »
They've just come out of the RNC convention, with everyone talking about Palin the same way that everyone was talking about Obama after the DNC convention.  The debates will be the next battleground, but both Obama and Biden were on the boob tube in recent days trying to reignite the McSame argument.

Still, as long as Obama supporters continue to spend time firing at the VP nom and not the P nom, the better for McCain.  Adding to the distraction, Obama's campaign is apparently now not pulling in the money it expects and needs.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #978 on: September 09, 2008, 10:35:09 am »
Still, as long as Obama supporters continue to spend time firing at the VP nom and not the P nom, the better for McCain.  Adding to the distraction, Obama's campaign is apparently now not pulling in the money it expects and needs.


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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #979 on: September 09, 2008, 11:20:57 am »
Apparently now there's more detailed debunking of the "thanks, but no thanks" claim which includes a YouTube clip of her, from June of this year, asking a church congregation to pray for the deliverance of the earmark money including the bridge project.  Also, the jet was put on ebay but not sold on ebay.  Twice.  She eventually offloaded it through a broker, which still means that it was sold but it doesn't carry the same punch as the half-truth about ebay.  Further, she didn't fire her chef, she transferred her to cook for the State Legislature.

Considering that she's already dissembling about her personal record, which is the only thing she's talked about so far, she may be the perfect replacement for Cheney in the VP's office.

Did she ever say she sold the plane on eBay or that she fired the chef?

From the speech:

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."

"And I thought we could muddle through without the governor's personal chef - although I've got to admit that sometimes my kids sure miss her."

It's dissembling to say she's dissembling in these two cases. The state sold off the plane, and she doesn't use the chef anymore.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:23:24 am by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #980 on: September 09, 2008, 11:50:36 am »
Did she ever say she sold the plane on eBay or that she fired the chef?

From the speech:

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."

"And I thought we could muddle through without the governor's personal chef - although I've got to admit that sometimes my kids sure miss her."

It's dissembling to say she's dissembling in these two cases. The state sold off the plane, and she doesn't use the chef anymore.

As I said, these were half-truths.  Stating that she put the plane on ebay is true, and it infers a take-charge, can-do attitude towards governance.  But the whole truth, is that she put it on ebay and it failed to sell, which suggests that she tried to sell a luxury jet without actually having the first clue about how to sell a luxury jet.  Then she did the same thing again, expecting a different result, and it didn't sell the second time either.  That suggests a cavalier, shoot first ask questions later, stubborn attitude towards governance, which might not go down so well with the public who are familiar with the attitude towards governance demonstrated by the current administration.

As for the chef, she moved the chef to another branch of government, while inferring that she saved money by getting rid of the chef.  She didn't save money at all, but she did strip away an excess of the Governor's office (a good thing).  But she chose not to say that she moved the chef to another branch of government, just the same as she chose not to say that she ended up paying a professional broker to sell the jet, because neither of those facts will get her a standing ovation at the convention.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #981 on: September 09, 2008, 11:58:17 am »
As I said, these were half-truths.  Stating that she put the plane on ebay is true, and it infers a take-charge, can-do attitude towards governance.  But the whole truth, is that she put it on ebay and it failed to sell, which suggests that she tried to sell a luxury jet without actually having the first clue about how to sell a luxury jet.  Then she did the same thing again, expecting a different result, and it didn't sell the second time either.  That suggests a cavalier, shoot first ask questions later, stubborn attitude towards governance, which might not go down so well with the public who are familiar with the attitude towards governance demonstrated by the current administration.

Oh dear lord, because no one has ever had to put an item up for auction more than once before in the history of Ebay.  Ever.  Much less large expensive items for which there would be a limited number of buyers.

I'm sure every item that goes through Sotheby's Auctions has either sold the very first time, or was never put up for auction a second time.  Because that would be crazy.

It's more of this same "well we can't really find where she's lying so we'll make shit up to make it into a lie".
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 12:00:29 pm by tophfar »
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

Limey

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #982 on: September 09, 2008, 12:00:53 pm »
Oh dear lord, because no one has ever had to put an item up for auction more than once before in the history of Ebay.  Ever.  Much less large expensive items for which there would be a limited number of buyers.

I'm sure every item that goes through Sotheby's Auctions has either sold the very first time, or was never put up for auction a second time.  Because that would be crazy.

It's more of this same "well we can't really find where she's lying so we'll make shit up to make it into a lie".

Nice job of completely missing the point.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #983 on: September 09, 2008, 12:01:31 pm »
Nice job of completely missing the point.

No it's entirely the point, putting an item up for auction twice suggest incompetence?  That stupid as all hell.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

pravata

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #984 on: September 09, 2008, 12:04:07 pm »
Oh dear lord, because no one has ever had to put an item up for auction more than once before in the history of Ebay.  Ever.  Much less large expensive items for which there would be a limited number of buyers.

I'm sure every item that goes through Sotheby's Auctions has either sold the very first time, or was never put up for auction a second time.  Because that would be crazy.

It's more of this same "well we can't really find where she's lying so we'll make shit up to make it into a lie".

Completely ignores the context.  She is supposed to be this do it all "hockey mom" whatever the fuck that means, and just like the mom next door.   And what mom hasn't put a jet on EBay?  Her smirky little "I put it on EBay!" got a cheer, but the followup, the strategy did not work, and they had to sell the thing at a loss through a broker is ignored, possibly even celebrated by her informationally and educationally challenged supporters. 

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #985 on: September 09, 2008, 12:04:31 pm »
As for the chef, she moved the chef to another branch of government, while inferring that she saved money by getting rid of the chef.  She didn't save money at all, but she did strip away an excess of the Governor's office (a good thing).  But she chose not to say that she moved the chef to another branch of government, just the same as she chose not to say that she ended up paying a professional broker to sell the jet, because neither of those facts will get her a standing ovation at the convention.

And as for this, you agree that it removed wasteful spending from her office.  Do you know how the budget may have been cut, re worked or modified to where the chef was moved?  I don't, and neither do you.  So maybe there were other wastes cut to afford to keep the employee on staff elsewhere, saving someones job and still removing wasteful spending as a whole?

Without knowing these factors you cannot claim to be expressing the "whole truth" any more than anyone else.  You are just making shit up to excuse the fact that it actually isnt a lie, in order to make it one.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #986 on: September 09, 2008, 12:06:01 pm »
Completely ignores the context.  She is supposed to be this do it all "hockey mom" whatever the fuck that means, and just like the mom next door.   And what mom hasn't put a jet on EBay?  Her smirky little "I put it on EBay!" got a cheer, but the followup, the strategy did not work, and they had to sell the thing at a loss through a broker is ignored, possibly even celebrated by her informationally and educationally challenged supporters. 

yes the only people that could possibly disagree with you are uneducated and uninformed.  because google isnt available to everyone on the intertubes.
Here are just a few of the key ingredients: dynamite, pole vaulting, laughing gas, choppers - can you see how incredible this is going to be?

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #987 on: September 09, 2008, 12:06:22 pm »
Did she ever say she sold the plane on eBay or that she fired the chef?

From the speech:

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."

"And I thought we could muddle through without the governor's personal chef - although I've got to admit that sometimes my kids sure miss her."

It's dissembling to say she's dissembling in these two cases. The state sold off the plane, and she doesn't use the chef anymore.

Someone should let McCain know the whole story:

Go to 1:00 mark for his comments.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm5jQEh7exg

Also, it sold for a loss, not a profit.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #988 on: September 09, 2008, 12:07:15 pm »
yes the only people that could possibly disagree with you are uneducated and uninformed.  because google isnt available to everyone on the intertubes.

Apparently not.  And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.  Unfortunate but true.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #989 on: September 09, 2008, 12:07:47 pm »
I am itching to shut this fucker down.

Just so you know.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #990 on: September 09, 2008, 12:10:15 pm »
Apparently not.  And yes, her supporters, for the most part are not that well educated.  Unfortunate but true.

It might do to lighten up a little. 
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #991 on: September 09, 2008, 12:11:22 pm »
It might do to lighten up a little. 

sorry but those are the facts.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #992 on: September 09, 2008, 12:12:11 pm »
Goin' for a bus ride.

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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #993 on: September 09, 2008, 12:13:45 pm »
sorry but those are the facts.

You have a odd definition of fact.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #994 on: September 09, 2008, 12:16:48 pm »
You have a odd definition of fact.

You shouldn't confuse a "fact" with a "FACT!"
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #995 on: September 09, 2008, 12:20:29 pm »
sorry but those are the facts.

Link please?  Just kidding, I wouldn't read it anyway
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #996 on: September 09, 2008, 12:21:56 pm »
I am itching to shut this fucker down.

Just so you know.

Please don't. I've been here all along, through all of the nearly 1000 messages and, as far as I know, Limey has not yet posted a revealing photo of Scarlett Johansson.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #997 on: September 09, 2008, 12:28:34 pm »
Does her speech, at her own partys convention, have to be absolutely 100% FACT? It was an opinion piece IMO, and I for one thought the jet comment and the chef comment were simply jokes, indicating she has a sense of humor.

Lighten up people, jeez.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #998 on: September 09, 2008, 12:40:40 pm »
Please don't. I've been here all along, through all of the nearly 1000 messages and, as far as I know, Limey has not yet posted a revealing photo of Scarlett Johansson.
If that's all ot would take, post away!  Then maybe Spack will lock it up.
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Re: Palin. WTF?
« Reply #999 on: September 09, 2008, 12:46:17 pm »
sorry but those are the facts.

So, her detractors, for the most part are condescending scolds?
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