McLemore outrighted to AAA

[VirtualBob]

McLemore was outrighted to Round Rock (removing him from the 40-man roster) per Astros.com.  Does anyone know if this means he has already passed through waivers, or whether it is a precursor to a potential waiver claim?

[hostros7]

Also:

Mike DeJean, who will explore free agency
Carlos Hines
Stephen Randolph
Alberto Castillo
Nick Gorneault
J.R. House

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5632951.html

[SaltyParker]

Also Victor Diaz was cut making a total of 8 players.

[HudsonHawk]

McLemore was outrighted to Round Rock (removing him from the 40-man roster) per Astros.com.  Does anyone know if this means he has already passed through waivers, or whether it is a precursor to a potential waiver claim?

In order to be outrighted, a player has to pass through waivers.  Don't know if this means that he's already cleared, or that they're hoping to send him to RR after he clears, but it reads like it's the former.

[moriartp]

Sorry to see Gorneault get cut. I was hoping he'd have more of a chance to make the club.

[HudsonHawk]

Sorry to see Gorneault get cut. I was hoping he'd have more of a chance to make the club.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think he didn't get a chance?

[SaltyParker]

That Paronto and Hernandez aren't down the road is somewhat of a surprise.

[pravata]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think he didn't get a chance?

He played in 16 games, had 23 atbats and hit .435, by the pence rule (PENCE! RULE!) he should be wearing a furry hat and waiving a baton at the head of the parade on Opening Day.

[moriartp]

Why do I think Gorneault's had less of a chance? His number of plate appearances compared to the number Cruz and Abercrombie have gotten. With the bench so power-starved, I think giving him more time to show what he's got would have been a good idea. Despite his lack of major league experience and declining numbers (and I'm completely ignorant concerning his defense), it looks to me like he could've provided some value to the team.


He played in 16 games, had 23 atbats and hit .435, by the pence rule (PENCE! RULE!) he should be wearing a furry hat and waiving a baton at the head of the parade on Opening Day.

Yes! Finally someone agrees with me.

[pravata]

Yes! Finally someone agrees with me.

You must be new here.

[moriartp]

Indeed. Facetious, too.

[pravata]

and why was McLemore outrighted? "He just didn't throw enough strikes," manager Cecil Cooper said. "We need guys to throw strikes." Link  I asked Duarte about the waiver thing and he didn't answer.

[chuck]

Gorneault has outplayed Cruz and Abercrombie thus far this spring. i am well aware that Gorneault has never stuck with any big league club throughout his career. The team is plainly looking beyond just this spring's performance in evaluating the possible fifth outfielders. Since that's the case I think it is in fact fair to say that Gorneault didn't have a real chance to make the team.

[VirtualBob]

In order to be outrighted, a player has to pass through waivers.  Don't know if this means that he's already cleared, or that they're hoping to send him to RR after he clears, but it reads like it's the former.

That's the distinction I was hoping for clarity on.  I know it has to happen, and was hoping that it already had (and that he had survived the waiver wire to remain in the Astros organization).  Looking at the walks, i could see this coming, but I really think he can pull it together and contribute in the future.

[VirtualBob]

Gorneault has outplayed Cruz and Abercrombie thus far this spring. i am well aware that Gorneault has never stuck with any big league club throughout his career. The team is plainly looking beyond just this spring's performance in evaluating the possible fifth outfielders. Since that's the case I think it is in fact fair to say that Gorneault didn't have a real chance to make the team.

He was signed to play OF at RR and provide AAAA emergency.  That is the 'chance' he was given, and if he can continue to play well at RR, it is very likely that he will see time in Houston before the year is out.  Stuff happens.

He was never in any sense in a comparable position to the one PENCE!! was in last year.

[Lefty]

How did he look in the field?  Can he play CF?  Did he get many AB's against probable big leaguers, or just ST filler? 

[chuck]

He was signed to play OF at RR and provide AAAA emergency.

Right - he wasn't really given a chance to make the team. I'm not complaining, just sort of indirectly answering HH's question (that he asked someone else).

I'm surprised that DeJean got a pink slip. In the few times I've seen him this spring he has indeed thrown strikes. I was envisioning him in perhaps the 7th inning role.

[MusicMan]

I'm surprised that DeJean got a pink slip. In the few times I've seen him this spring he has indeed thrown strikes. I was envisioning him in perhaps the 7th inning role.

If DeJean was pitching regularly in the 7th, then something would have gone way, way wrong with the pen this year.  And since they're unlikely to have great success without a strong pen, there's no reason to be filling that gap with a guy approaching 40; if things have gone that far south, we should be seeing more kids out there.

[chuck]

How did he look in the field?  Can he play CF?  Did he get many AB's against probable big leaguers, or just ST filler? 

He looked great in the field, at least relative to the others. He made every play he should have made (not at all the case with the others) and some pretty spectacular ones as well. He would not be my ideal CF, but neither would Berkman, and Berkman did OK out there. Gorneault has pretty good speed. I didn't see enough to know if he consistently gets good jumps or not. He mostly played LF. Most of his at bats were late in the game. That's not to say that they were invariably against guys with no prayer of making the big league team, but often that was the case. He never (that I recall) faced a starter. He may have started in some split squad games that I didn't see.

[VirtualBob]

If DeJean was pitching regularly in the 7th, then something would have gone way, way wrong with the pen this year.  And since they're unlikely to have great success without a strong pen, there's no reason to be filling that gap with a guy approaching 40; if things have gone that far south, we should be seeing more kids out there.

I'm surprised he was demoted to RR instead of just being released.  I guess I missed all 5 of those strikes he was supposed to have thrown.

[Bench]

I'm surprised that DeJean got a pink slip.

Me too. He was Mr. Happy's lock.

[chuck]

If DeJean was pitching regularly in the 7th, then something would have gone way, way wrong with the pen this year.  And since they're unlikely to have great success without a strong pen, there's no reason to be filling that gap with a guy approaching 40; if things have gone that far south, we should be seeing more kids out there.

I imagine this is what the team is thinking, but good lord there are very few Astros pitchers that are slated for the pen that currently are able to throw strikes consistently.

[VirtualBob]

He looked great in the field, at least relative to the others. He made every play he should have made (not at all the case with the others) and some pretty spectacular ones as well. He would not be my ideal CF, but neither would Berkman, and Berkman did OK out there. Gorneault has pretty good speed. I didn't see enough to know if he consistently gets good jumps or not. He mostly played LF. Most of his at bats were late in the game. That's not to say that they were invariably against guys with no prayer of making the big league team, but often that was the case. He never (that I recall) faced a starter. He may have started in some split squad games that I didn't see.

It sounds to me like he is "pretty good in the field for a left-fielder", which is not exactly to imply gold-glove caliber.  I predict RR will see Gorneault in LF, Ramirez in CF and Diaz in RF on a pretty regular basis.  Cruz or Abercrombie would figure in the mix if either is sent down and accepts the assignement (Cruz) or clears waivers (Abercrombie), with the DH rule giving plenty of AB's to whoever is 4th.  Of course, there is also Self (OF/1B), Niekro (1B), Newhan (IF/OF) and Saccomanno (1B and maybe 3B) to fit into the puzzle somewhere.

[Froback]

It sounds to me like he is "pretty good in the field for a left-fielder", which is not exactly to imply gold-glove caliber.  I predict RR will see Gorneault in LF, Ramirez in CF and Diaz in RF on a pretty regular basis.  Cruz or Abercrombie would figure in the mix if either is sent down and accepts the assignement (Cruz) or clears waivers (Abercrombie), with the DH rule giving plenty of AB's to whoever is 4th.  Of course, there is also Self (OF/1B), Niekro (1B), Newhan (IF/OF) and Saccomanno (1B and maybe 3B) to fit into the puzzle somewhere.

Quick guessing of the names you mentioned:
1B: Niekro
2B: Newhan (assuming Ash is at AA, otherwise might split, with Manzella manning SS)
3B: Saccomanno (yeah, I know)
LF: Gorneault
CF: Ramirez
RF: Diaz
DH: Self

[HudsonHawk]

Why do I think Gorneault's had less of a chance? His number of plate appearances compared to the number Cruz and Abercrombie have gotten.

I don't agree that a lesser number of at bats in ST necessarly equals "less of a chance".  He was signed for a specific reason, as was Cruz and Abercrombie.  He out hit both of those guys, so obviously the relative outcome of their respective ST at bats wasn't the deciding factor.  I'm not sure more at bats, even with the same outcome, would have made a difference.  I'm not arguing Gorneault could or couldn't help the team, only that it's shortsighted to look at a handful of ST games and say "Player X got hosed".

[moriartp]

I'm not arguing Gorneault could or couldn't help the team, only that it's shortsighted to look at a handful of ST games and say "Player X got hosed".

That's fair.

[MusicMan]

Quick guessing of the names you mentioned:
1B: Niekro
2B: Newhan (assuming Ash is at AA, otherwise might split, with Manzella manning SS)
3B: Saccomanno (yeah, I know)
LF: Gorneault
CF: Ramirez
RF: Diaz
DH: Self

Is Saccomanno's 3b defense that bad?  I'd presume that 3b is the only avenue he has a prayer to reach the majors on.

[HudsonHawk]

That's fair.

To elaborate....I think too often people think ST is supposed to be an audition for who's going to make the club for the regular season.  As if it were a preliminary round in a contest.  It's not.  Certain spots may be up for grabs, but it's not as if they line everyone up and say "the 14 guys who hit the best make the club".  A great or a dismal ST performance may be but one factor.

[BizidyDizidy]

To elaborate....I think too often people think ST is supposed to be an audition for who's going to make the club for the regular season.  As if it were a preliminary round in a contest.  It's not.  Certain spots may be up for grabs, but it's not as if they line everyone up and say "the 14 guys who hit the best make the club".  A great or a dismal ST performance may be but one factor.

I think you are totally right here, but I don't see how that's different than saying he didn't have a chance to make the team. If he's gonna get sent down no matter what he hits and how he plays in the field, he doesn't have a chance. You are both saying the same thing.

[VirtualBob]

Is Saccomanno's 3b defense that bad?  I'd presume that 3b is the only avenue he has a prayer to reach the majors on.

He trashed his shoulder a couple of years ago and has never really recovered.  The Astros dictated that he play everyday at 3B for a stretch last summer, and he literally could not do it due to pain in the shoulder.  I have nit heard anything on it since that experiement was abandoned last year, but I would be surprised if he spends more than spot duty at 1B.  my guess on the lineup:

1B: Niekro
2B: Garcia
SS: Manzella
3B: Klassen
LF: Gorneault
CF: Ramirez
RF: Diaz
DH: Cruz/Abernathy (if they are at AAA) or Self
1B/3B/DH backup:  Sacomanno
IF/OF backup: Newhan
C: somebody we don't know about yet
backup C: Santangelo

[Mr. Happy]

Me too. He was Mr. Happy's lock.

Wellsir, Mr. Happy was wrong. I'll defer to those who know.

[VirtualBob]

I think you are totally right here, but I don't see how that's different than saying he didn't have a chance to make the team. If he's gonna get sent down no matter what he hits and how he plays in the field, he doesn't have a chance. You are both saying the same thing.

No ... we are saying quite different things with the same starting point.

Opinion A:  Gorneault was not given a chance to make the team, which is too bad (and/or not fair), because blah blah blah.
Opinion B:  Gorneault was not given a chance to make the team, because his role in ST was to get ready to be a AAAA insurance outfielder at Round Rock.

[VirtualBob]

Wellsir, Mr. Happy was wrong. I'll defer to those who know.

Or maybe just those who knew better than to try to guess?

[pravata]

...Opinion B:  Gorneault was not given a chance to make the team, because his role in ST was to get ready to be a AAAA insurance outfielder at Round Rock.

And so that Flapjack wouldn't have to stand in the hot sun in the late innings while some AA lefthander tried to get the ball over the plate.

[VirtualBob]

And so that Flapjack wouldn't have to stand in the hot sun in the late innings while some AA lefthander tried to get the ball over the plate.

That, too.

[BizidyDizidy]

No ... we are saying quite different things with the same starting point.

Opinion A:  Gorneault was not given a chance to make the team, which is too bad (and/or not fair), because blah blah blah.
Opinion B:  Gorneault was not given a chance to make the team, because his role in ST was to get ready to be a AAAA insurance outfielder at Round Rock.

My mistake - carry on then.

[Mr. Happy]

Or maybe just those who knew better than to try to guess?

Yeah, but guessing is fun. I thought that Dejean could be an acceptable 7th inning guy.

[JimR]

Is Saccomanno's 3b defense that bad?  I'd presume that 3b is the only avenue he has a prayer to reach the majors on.

as Bob says, he cannot throw.

[Froback]

as Bob says, he cannot throw.

But if he could learn to throw with his other hand...


(Sorry, I feel dirty now, I need to go shower)

[Reuben]

If DeJean was pitching regularly in the 7th, then something would have gone way, way wrong with the pen this year.  And since they're unlikely to have great success without a strong pen, there's no reason to be filling that gap with a guy approaching 40;

...when they can use a guy over 40, like Brocail (kidding, I understand your point).

[HudsonHawk]

he's gonna get sent down no matter what he hits and how he plays in the field, he doesn't have a chance. You are both saying the same thing.

I'm not saying that.  I'm saying his ST batting average may be but one factor in the decision of whether or not he makes the team.

[VirtualBob]

But if he could learn to throw with his other hand...

... he'd be a left-handed third-baseman??

[Kent's Moustache]

He trashed his shoulder a couple of years ago and has never really recovered.  The Astros dictated that he play everyday at 3B for a stretch last summer, and he literally could not do it due to pain in the shoulder.  I have nit heard anything on it since that experiement was abandoned last year, but I would be surprised if he spends more than spot duty at 1B.  my guess on the lineup:

1B: Niekro
2B: Garcia
SS: Manzella
3B: Klassen
LF: Gorneault
CF: Ramirez
RF: Diaz
DH: Cruz/Abernathy (if they are at AAA) or Self
1B/3B/DH backup:  Sacomanno
IF/OF backup: Newhan
C: somebody we don't know about yet
backup C: Santangelo

Notably, Newhan and Self are the only LH bats on that list.

P.S.  That OF may set a RR record for strikeouts.

[Duman]

Notably, Newhan and Self are the only LH bats on that list.

P.S.  That OF may set a RR record for strikeouts.

To me the stat I am watching on Ramirez is walks.  He only struck out 1 every 6 AB in AAA last year but he only walked 1 in every 20.   That # needs to go up.

[VirtualBob]

That OF may set a RR record for strikeouts.

I'll look it up if I get a chance, but with the likes of Charleton Jimerson, Barry Wesson & Colin Porter as alumni, I expect that there is a pretty high bar for this record.

[Duman]

Notably, Newhan and Self are the only LH bats on that list.

P.S.  That OF may set a RR record for strikeouts.

Don't know about the OF but here is the record for most strike outs by 3 players in RR in a season


2006 - 428 (Jimerson 183, Conrad 135, and Gordon 110)
2007 - 389 (Conrad 144, Ransom 131, and Saccomanno 114)
2005 - 311 (Coolbaugh 111, Conrad 104 and Scott 96)

[ckutac]

I think you are totally right here, but I don't see how that's different than saying he didn't have a chance to make the team. If he's gonna get sent down no matter what he hits and how he plays in the field, he doesn't have a chance. You are both saying the same thing.

More than likely they brought Gorneault in as insurance incase Cruz or Erstad proved they could not be counted on and at the same time he preformed very well.  With both Cruz and Erstad putting up very respectable numbers at the plate, they were given the nod over Gorneault given their history.

[VirtualBob]

Don't know about the OF but here is the record for most strike outs by 3 players in RR in a season


2006 - 428 (Jimerson 183, Conrad 135, and Gordon 110)
2007 - 389 (Conrad 144, Ransom 131, and Saccomanno 114)
2005 - 311 (Coolbaugh 111, Conrad 104 and Scott 96)

Looking at the top four outfielders each year ...

2000 - 331 (Porter 130, Cole 98, Logan 71, Wesson 32)
2001 - 302 (Wesson 135, Lane 98, Logan 44, Porter 25)
2002 - 398 (Rosamond 120, Jill 105, Topolski 88, Stanley 85)
2003 - 378* (Rosamond 124, Acevedo 101, Wright 78, Landry 75)
                * Landry split time between 1B & OF about equally
2004 - 337* (Jimerson 163, Taveras 76, Rodriguez 55, Scott 43)
                * + Hill (20 in 22 games) and Topolski (64 in 81 games, about half in the OF)
2005 - 346 (Scott 96, Self 91, Wesson 84, Gipson 75)
2006 - 318* (Jimerson 183, Scott 66, Rodriguez 53, Lane 16)
                * Gordon also had 110 in 102 games, 29 in the OF
2007 - 213* (Anderson 75, Wesson 55, Raines 47, Rodriguez 36)
                * + Lane (26 in 11 games), Pence (15 in 19 games) and Torbert (21 in 16 games)