Author Topic: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?  (Read 3095 times)

Duman

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Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« on: January 10, 2008, 01:31:18 pm »
Ever since I watched Roger on 60 minutes.  I have been thinking about about how similar Clemens sounded and acted to Pete Rose when the gambling stuff first broke.  Anyone else thought about this?
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matadorph

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 01:34:55 pm »
Yes. And, of course, Rafael Palmeiro.

MusicMan

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 01:44:35 pm »
You mean beyond a pathological obsession with competing and winning, a quality which first drove them to the top of their field and then drove them to public humiliation?
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Duman

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 01:47:57 pm »
You mean beyond a pathological obsession with competing and winning, a quality which first drove them to the top of their field and then drove them to public humiliation?

That is exactly what I am talking about and what I see different from R. Palmero
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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 01:48:27 pm »
Ever since I watched Roger on 60 minutes.  I have been thinking about about how similar Clemens sounded and acted to Pete Rose when the gambling stuff first broke.  Anyone else thought about this?

Yes.  They sounded exactly alike.  But then again, Pete Rose signed an agreement with the commissioner stating his guilt and then recanted when he felt the commissioner violated the agreement the next day when the story broke to national public.  That's when Petey went on the defensive, but he did have to explain away why he signed the paper admitting to guilt and that wasn't too pleasant. 

I don't think Clemens has yet admitted to anything nor should he be given the "guilty until proven innocent" status either.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 03:45:03 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 02:31:48 pm »
Yes.  They sounded exactly alike.  But then again, Pete Rose signed a agreement with the commissioner stating his guilt and then recanted when he felt the commissioner violated the agreement.  I don't think Clemens has yet admitted to anything nor should he be given the "guilty until proven innocent" status either.
Ok, Noe, this seems like a bit of a double standard here for you.  Not meaning to pick too much, but you hold McNamee accountable for the sexual misconduct/rape issue he was questioned about, when no charges were even filed against him, yet you want Roger to be "innocent until proven guilty".

I understand the magnitude of the differences and that McNamee is a slime of the sort you don't ever want to be associated with, but supposedly in our country everyone in all situations should be treated "innocent until proven guilty".  Doesn't work that way in the public eyes, even though it should.  Just thought it odd that you are using a double standard here... Not normally your style.

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 02:48:27 pm »
Ok, Noe, this seems like a bit of a double standard here for you.  Not meaning to pick too much, but you hold McNamee accountable for the sexual misconduct/rape issue he was questioned about, when no charges were even filed against him, yet you want Roger to be "innocent until proven guilty".

I understand the magnitude of the differences and that McNamee is a slime of the sort you don't ever want to be associated with, but supposedly in our country everyone in all situations should be treated "innocent until proven guilty".  Doesn't work that way in the public eyes, even though it should.  Just thought it odd that you are using a double standard here... Not normally your style.

The opinion of the police detective swayed my opinion on the matter with McNamee in St. Petersburg.  Go read the article and then get back to me.

Froback

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 03:08:38 pm »
The opinion of the police detective swayed my opinion on the matter with McNamee in St. Petersburg.  Go read the article and then get back to me.
I have read the article (or at least the one from Yahoo, which is what I assume you are referring to).

While it seems very damning to McNamee, you then have to question if they have that much evidence, why was he not charged?  Rape is taken very seriously no matter who is involved.  Even though he was working for the Yankees, I doubt him being charged would have damaged any situation with the Yankees.  McNamee was a virtual nobody to the Yankee's, as evidence by them firing him over the issue.

Even with all this, because he was not charge, in theory should be considered innocent, by the innocent until proved guilty comment you mention in regard to Clemens.

All this does prove is that while that is a legal distinction it is not the true method the public (or people) use to classify people.  When you hear of situations like this, (most times) people form an instant opinion of guilt or innocence.  It just seems in this case you are doing that for McNamee and chastising others for doing it to Clemens, thus my comment about you having a double standard here.

Seems like they are both shady in their own ways.  Rape obviously being more serious than taking steroids, but still both seem more likely to be guilty than innocent.  And there is just about nothing they can do to change that, just ask OJ.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 03:11:17 pm by Froback »

Noe

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 03:30:23 pm »
I have read the article (or at least the one from Yahoo, which is what I assume you are referring to).

While it seems very damning to McNamee, you then have to question if they have that much evidence, why was he not charged?

Burden of proof is the biggest reason.  The lack of a charge is not a clear cut indictment of innocence.  It is a decision by a prosecutor that his/her job to get a guilty conviction is not clear enough for them to proceed.  In a similar case (but with a different twist), the prosecutor in the Duke LaCrosse team rape allegation carried through with his plans to prosecute because he had a victim willing to testify.  From what I read, the victim in this case is not jumping up and down wanting justice like the Duke LaCrosse victim.  For all I know she told the prosecutor "I want it to be over, I don't want to sit in front of jury and be blasted by a defense attorney... no thanks".

End of case, cannot prosecute well enough without the victim (speculation on my part).

So while the prosecutor in the Duke case was more than willing to go into a court fight with a star witness (who later turned out to be a very unreliable victim at that and his case fell apart and led to his disbarment), this particular prosecutor one can only summize felt that the burden of proof was not met so no sense in wasting the taxpayer money.

That did not change the opinion of the witnesses and law enforcement people in the case (security guard, hotel manager, police detectives) that McNamee did take advantage of a woman.  That is highly despicable and something I cannot personally turn a blind eye towards.

Quote
Rape is taken very seriously no matter who is involved.  Even though he was working for the Yankees, I doubt him being charged would have damaged any situation with the Yankees.  McNamee was a virtual nobody to the Yankee's, as evidence by them firing him over the issue.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Can you clarify this because the article stated the Yankees did not comment on the allegation and the firing as being tied in together.  But if it were and McNamee felt damaged by the organization, he then had an actionable case... no?  I'm asking because I'm no legal expert.

Quote
Even with all this, because he was not charge, in theory should be considered innocent, by the innocent until proved guilty comment you mention in regard to Clemens.

I go with the police detective opinion primarily who has no problem saying McNamee lied about his involvement in this rape.  There is no doubt in his mind that McNamee is not innocent, I have little doubt because of it too.

And Roger Clemens is being indicted for using steriods or comparing him to Pete Rose in guilt.  One, no one can prove he used steroids, it's up to believeability at this point in the "he said he said" case.  Two Pete Rose has made no bones about being guilty as charged.  So until Clemens comes clean like Pete, he has to be given the benefit of the doubt.  Bring out checks paid for the steroids, bring out witnesses to the injections, bring out a police detective who interviewed Clemens at the time and found him guilty because he went through his apartment and found syringes and empty bottles that contained XXX steroids and HGH.  Guess what, I'm ready to say Clemens is guilty.  The reason I was ready and willing now to ascribe lack of character to McNamee now is that the detective's assertion plus witnesses speak to cupability.  The found evidence at the poolside of the date rape drug that someone used on the woman and that was in a water bottle owned by McNamee.  They found the same date rape drug in the woman's blood when tested at the hospital. 

A lack of prosecution charge is not about lack of cupability, but lack of enough evidence to convict in a court of law.

Quote
All this does prove is that while that is a legal distinction it is not the true method the public (or people) use to classify people.  When you hear of situations like this, (most times) people form an instant opinion of guilt or innocence.  It just seems in this case you are doing that for McNamee and chastising others for doing it to Clemens, thus my comment about you having a double standard here.

Duly noted, however I beg to differ on "instant" when it comes to McNamee.

Quote
Seems like they are both shady in their own ways.  Rape obviously being more serious than taking steroids, but still both seem more likely to be guilty than innocent.  And there is just about nothing they can do to change that, just ask OJ.

OJ was convicted in a civil court.  He was found guilty.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 03:41:59 pm by Noe in Austin »

JimR

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 04:08:02 pm »
The opinion of the police detective swayed my opinion on the matter with McNamee in St. Petersburg.  Go read the article and then get back to me.

oh, right. police detectives are unbiased observers. i'm with pravata. Hardin needs you on the jury bad. because the detective said what he said, innocent until proven guilty--which actually has some relevance in a criminal matter--does not apply?
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Noe

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 04:13:43 pm »
oh, right. police detectives are unbiased observers. i'm with pravata. Hardin needs you on the jury bad. because the detective said what he said, innocent until proven guilty--which actually has some relevance in a criminal matter--does not apply?

*sigh*

Court. Of. Public. Opinion. (and you left out the water bottle and date rape found it in and also the woman's  blood stream... that shaped the detective's opinion)

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matadorph

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 06:47:48 pm »
Noe, OJ was found liable. Findings of guilt are reserved for criminal courts.

(Just a minor nit, carry on).

Noe

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 08:55:38 pm »
Noe, OJ was found liable. Findings of guilt are reserved for criminal courts.

(Just a minor nit, carry on).

Thanks, however the point remains he was not exonerated of wrong doing entirely.

Noe

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 09:05:52 pm »
Speaking of Pete Rose and Roger Clemens, well John O'Dowd, the man who lead the investigation on Rose and provided the O'Dowd report, has come out with his opinions on the Mitchell Report and Roger Clemens.

Withheld evidence hurts Mitchell Report

Interesting.

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 09:51:35 pm »
Speaking of Pete Rose and Roger Clemens, well John O'Dowd, the man who lead the investigation on Rose and provided the O'Dowd report, has come out with his opinions on the Mitchell Report and Roger Clemens.
Withheld evidence hurts Mitchell Report
Interesting.
Considering the current state of the Mitchell Report -- the repercussions and Congress getting involved -- I can see why Mitchell's staff might tell the AP to "direct your request for copies of the documents to the parties who provided them to us."

I'd bet after Congress is done with the whole matter George Mitchell might be more accommodating.

Maybe John O'Dowd's opinion is as premature as any of ours, here....  :D

Noe

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 10:10:11 pm »
Considering the current state of the Mitchell Report -- the repercussions and Congress getting involved -- I can see why Mitchell's staff might tell the AP to "direct your request for copies of the documents to the parties who provided them to us."

I'd bet after Congress is done with the whole matter George Mitchell might be more accommodating.

Maybe John O'Dowd's opinion is as premature as any of ours, here....  :D

Perhaps, but to date no one has ever criticized Mitchell's work (except a few mediots who thought they could do better for 2 million dollars.  Whatev!).  Hardin, Emery... no one is critical of the work and go to pains to say Mitchell did a good job and is an honorable man.

John O'Dowd's criticism is out of left field and one wonders where that is coming from and why.

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2008, 05:50:24 am »
Ever since I watched Roger on 60 minutes.  I have been thinking about about how similar Clemens sounded and acted to Pete Rose when the gambling stuff first broke.  Anyone else thought about this?


Pete Rose sort of reminds me more of Charlie Parker, while Clemens is more like George Armstrong Custer. Either way it ends badly.
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2008, 08:36:16 am »
BTW I'm not saying that Pete is going to O.D. on smack, or that Roger is going to be killed by Indians. At least not metaphorically...
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Duman

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2008, 09:09:01 am »
BTW I'm not saying that Pete is going to O.D. on smack, or that Roger is going to be killed by Indians. At least not metaphorically...

Clemens is 6-6 with a 4.18 ERA against Cleveland, so it doesn't look like he does great against the Indians. 


I thought I was getting vs. team splits but I got his season stats instead. Sorry
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 09:16:26 am by Duman »
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Limey

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Re: Does anyone else see similarities between Clemens & Rose?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2008, 09:20:09 am »

Clemens is 6-6 with a 4.18 ERA against Cleveland, so it doesn't look like he does great against the Indians. 


I thought I was getting vs. team splits but I got his season stats instead. Sorry

Since 1987, he's 24-8 with a 3.21 ERA, 10 complete games and 4 shut-outs.  276 hits vs. 312 Ks.  96 walks and 23 injections in the butt.
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