Pole Tax (Non-BB)

[Limey]

Texas is introducing a $5 tax on those who frequent titty-bars, which will go to fund programs for victims of sex crimes.  If you feel this is an infringement on your first amendment rights, better get down the clubs before the law takes effect on Jan 1.  If you're feeling altruistic, keep your powder dry until the new year at which time you can have fun and support a good cause.

Me?  I stopped going to titty-bars years ago, and only now partake when it's a bachelor party (i.e. mandatory).  However, I am completely bamboozled by the moral and constitutional ambiguities of this.

[Don]

Wasn't there an attempt several years ago to institute a similar tax, but in that case case applied to help fund education?

I believe that some referred to this plan as "Tits for Tots."

[Limey]

Wasn't there an attempt several years ago to institute a similar tax, but in that case case applied to help fund education?

Yep.

I believe that some referred to this plan as "Tits for Tots."

...and that is why it failed.

Hence the moral ambiguity issue.  If it was unseemly to link schools to titty-bars, isn't it similarly unfair to link titty-bars to rape?

[Andyzipp]

I know for certain that a few years back there was a program similar to both above, but the funds were intended to assist unwanted cats. 

I forget the name.

[VirtualBob]

I know for certain that a few years back there was a program similar to both above, but the funds were intended to assist unwanted cats. 

I forget the name.

Thankfully!

[Andyzipp]

Intentionally...

[Limey]

I know for certain that a few years back there was a program similar to both above, but the funds were intended to assist unwanted cats. 

I forget the name.

At least it wasn't in support of armed outdoor sportsmen.

[kevinG]

Texas is introducing a $5 tax on those who frequent titty-bars, which will go to fund programs for victims of sex crimes.  If you feel this is an infringement on your first amendment rights, better get down the clubs before the law takes effect on Jan 1. 

I wouldn't be of the opinion that it's an infringement of constitutional rights. I would be of the opinion that it sucks and is a bunch of crap.

[Andyzipp]

Or indignent roosters.

[Arky Vaughan]

Texas is introducing a $5 tax on those who frequent titty-bars, which will go to fund programs for victims of sex crimes.  If you feel this is an infringement on your first amendment rights, better get down the clubs before the law takes effect on Jan 1.  If you're feeling altruistic, keep your powder dry until the new year at which time you can have fun and support a good cause.

Me?  I stopped going to titty-bars years ago, and only now partake when it's a bachelor party (i.e. mandatory).  However, I am completely bamboozled by the moral and constitutional ambiguities of this.

That's one of the problems with the Supreme Court issuing the ridiculous decision that nude dancing is protected as freedom of expression by the First Amendment. It's not a political statement, it's selling a product, which can be taxed.

[Limey]

That's one of the problems with the Supreme Court issuing the ridiculous decision that nude dancing is protected as freedom of expression by the First Amendment. It's not a political statement, it's selling a product, which can be taxed.

I don't have a problem with the tax per se, just that it is so specifically applied.  After all, why should strip club patrons pay for the support of crime victims and no one else?

[otterjb]

I don't have a problem with the tax per se, just that it is so specifically applied.  After all, why should strip club patrons pay for the support of crime victims and no one else?

It implies a correlation that, in reality, doesn't exist. The end result is a good one though, imo.

[tophfar]

It implies a correlation that, in reality, doesn't exist. The end result is a good one though, imo.

which generally isnt a good way of going about doing things.

[otterjb]

which generally isnt a good way of going about doing things.

Of course not. But what's exactly happening? Someone going to a strip club has the option of paying that or not paying it. If they decide to, which almost all probably will, then it means that a five dollar bill is going from that person to a sex crime victim. Oh poor, poor viewer of tits and ass. What a crime against humanity.

[Limey]

It implies a correlation that, in reality, doesn't exist. The end result is a good one though, imo.

Exactly.  But a good causecshpuld be a more widely shared expense, no?

[Limey]

Of course not. But what's exactly happening? Someone going to a strip club has the option of paying that or not paying it. If they decide to, which almost all probably will, then it means that a five dollar bill is going from that person to a sex crime victim. Oh poor, poor viewer of tits and ass. What a crime against humanity.

The reverse of your argument was one of the justifications behind the veto of S-CHIP.  It's a very horny dilemma.

[Sleepy]

It implies a correlation that, in reality, doesn't exist. The end result is a good one though, imo.

There's actually a notable correlation between sexual abuse and titty dancing.  But in that order, not the sequence in which you were implying.

[otterjb]

Exactly.  But a good causecshpuld be a more widely shared expense, no?

Yeah, for sure. I just don't have much of a problem with it because it's a minimal tax on a completely optional, extracurricular activity. When you go to a strip club, you go to spend cash, hell, beers are more than 5 bucks there and that's pissed out 30 minutes later. But, yeah, in theory, it's logic is sticky.

[The Third Man]

I know for certain that a few years back there was a program similar to both above, but the funds were intended to assist unwanted cats. 

I forget the name.

Titties for Kitties.

[Amy]

It implies a correlation that, in reality, doesn't exist.

Which makes me wonder if quite a few of those responsible for instituting this tax are unaware of that fact.  Not that I'm crying for titty bar patrons, but I do find it curious.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I'm not sure how one decides that because we have a problem with abused women that the best course of action to raise funding to support abused women is a titty bar tax. But, I think it begins with legislators and lobbyists who don't like titty bars. The camel's whole head and neck is now in the tent. 

You know I really don't care much for golf and it's priced to a point that poor people can afford to play golf. Hey how about a golf tax. Five dollars tacked on to every green fee. The money will go to build public golf courses in poor neighborhoods and buy equipment for people below the poverty line. 

[Bench]

That's one of the problems with the Supreme Court issuing the ridiculous decision that nude dancing is protected as freedom of expression by the First Amendment. It's not a political statement, it's selling a product, which can be taxed.

Only political speech should be protected?

[Limey]

Which makes me wonder if quite a few of those responsible for instituting this tax are unaware of that fact.  Not that I'm crying for titty bar patrons, but I do find it curious.

It's the easy first step on a long, slippery slope.  This move doesn't bother most people, but what happens when they pick on something that you like?

[Limey]

I'm not sure how one decides that because we have a problem with abused women that the best course of action to raise funding to support abused women is a titty bar tax. But, I think it begins with legislators and lobbyists who don't like titty bars. The camel's whole head and neck is now in the tent. 

You know I really don't care much for golf and it's priced to a point that poor people can afford to play golf. Hey how about a golf tax. Five dollars tacked on to every green fee. The money will go to build public golf courses in poor neighborhoods and buy equipment for people below the poverty line. 

Next up: a tax on beer to pay recompense to the victims of fuckheads like Jim Leyritz.

[Amy]

It's the easy first step on a long, slippery slope.  This move doesn't bother most people, but what happens when they pick on something that you like?

What will happen is what usually happens.  I will complain and I will keep voting against the fuckers and it won't make any difference.

[otterjb]

What if? Well, there'd be a real backlash that the politicians wouldn't want to deal with. The slippery slope is like a giant tub of mental vasoline.

[matadorph]

That's one of the problems with the Supreme Court issuing the ridiculous decision that nude dancing is protected as freedom of expression by the First Amendment. It's not a political statement, it's selling a product, which can be taxed.

Which decision are you referring to? The Supreme Court has issued an array of opinions involving titty bars, but those decisions don't clearly say that this kind of topless dancing falls into a category of speech warranting full First Amendment protection.

The problem here isn't the Supreme Court. The problem is the Texas Legislature's refusal to honestly confront the state's revenue problems with grownup tax plans in favor of stopgap measures that are less likely to get anyone booted out of office.

[matadorph]

Exactly.  But a good causecshpuld be a more widely shared expense, no?

Bingo. But this is what happens when voters expect a full-service government without a willingness to pay for it through higher general taxes. Solution: increased sin taxes.

[Arky Vaughan]

I don't have a problem with the tax per se, just that it is so specifically applied.  After all, why should strip club patrons pay for the support of crime victims and no one else?

I won't argue with you there, except to point out that there are lots of examples of certain activities or products being specifically targeted for taxation. My only point is that if you define stripping as free expression rather than as a money-making enterprise, it raises implications for taxing it because of the First Amendment.

[Arky Vaughan]

Only political speech should be protected?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply pointing out that if you define nude dancing for money as free expression rather than as an economic transaction, this creates constitutional problems for how it's regulated. Unfortunately, under the recent campaign finance decisions, political speech's First Amendment protection has been considerably eroded.

[Limey]

I won't argue with you there, except to point out that there are lots of examples of certain activities or products being specifically targeted for taxation. My only point is that if you define stripping as free expression rather than as a money-making enterprise, it raises implications for taxing it because of the First Amendment.

I'm not arguing whether stripping is a first amendment right - as you pointed out earlier, the Supreme Court has already decided that it is.  The issue I'm raising is that it is a slippery slope when we stand by and let a limited segment of the population be targeted for taxation to pay for unrelated services.  It's the same reason why paying for S-CHIP by taxing smokers was a bad idea.

First they came for the smokers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a smoker.
Then they came for the titty-bar patrons
and I did not speak out
because I was not a titty-bar patron.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

[Limey]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply pointing out that if you define nude dancing for money as free expression rather than as an economic transaction, this creates constitutional problems for how it's regulated. Unfortunately, under the recent campaign finance decisions, political speech's First Amendment protection has been considerably eroded.

It seems to me that it's the taking off of the clothes that's the free expression, not the getting paid for it.  It's the same situation as expressing yourself by writing a blog or pamphlet that people can read for free, or writing a book, newspaper or magazine that they buy.  The writing is the free expression and the charge to see it is irrelevant.

[Arky Vaughan]

I'm not arguing whether stripping is a first amendment right - as you pointed out earlier, the Supreme Court has already decided that it is.  The issue I'm raising is that it is a slippery slope when we stand by and let a limited segment of the population be targeted for taxation to pay for unrelated services.  It's the same reason why paying for S-CHIP by taxing smokers was a bad idea.

First they came for the smokers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a smoker.
Then they came for the titty-bar patrons
and I did not speak out
because I was not a titty-bar patron.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it happens all the time.

[Arky Vaughan]

It seems to me that it's the taking off of the clothes that's the free expression, not the getting paid for it.  It's the same situation as expressing yourself by writing a blog or pamphlet that people can read for free, or writing a book, newspaper or magazine that they buy.  The writing is the free expression and the charge to see it is irrelevant.

I'm not sure this is consistent with how the First Amendment has been interpreted. Even when it has been suggested that nude dancing is protected expression, I don't recall that it's ever been held to receive the same protection as writing and publishing a book, magazine or newspaper article containing a political argument.

And there are all kinds of speech made in a commercial context that are more highly regulated than would be permitted for other kinds of speech. A doctor or lawyer giving advice to a patient or client, for example. This is also a reason why operating a crematorium is subject to stricter regulation than burning a flag in front of city hall.

I don't think we're necessarily in disagreement here, I just don't find this case to be that much more abysmal than a lot of things the government does with taxation. And I find the free expression argument in favor of nude dancing to be somewhat suspect. The girls ain't there because they're feeling artistic or political. They're there to make money.

[Matt]

As someone that works for a stripper pole manufacturer, I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

[Lurch]

As someone that works for a stripper pole manufacturer, I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

Need an observer in Quality Control?  Marketting?  Installations?

[Matt]

Need an observer in Quality Control?  Marketting?  Installations?

Actually I'm about to strangle our marketing person right now.  I hope you like Orange County!

[Lurch]

Actually I'm about to strangle our marketing person right now.  I hope you like Orange County!

How hard could it be?

"Our Poles Keep it Up!"

"Now with Reduced Chaffing!"

or, hell, "How Hard could it Be?!"

[Limey]

How hard could it be?

"Our Poles Keep it Up!"

"Now with Reduced Chaffing!"

or, hell, "How Hard could it Be?!"

"Ride it and put it away wet"

[Bench]

The beauty of American freedom is that your rights can be protected by anyone, no matter how unlikely.

Score one for the stippers and the constituion.

[UpTooLate]

It's the easy first step on a long, slippery slope.  This move doesn't bother most people, but what happens when they pick on something that you like?

Late to this thread.  Been away for awhile.  Since I like titties and bars, I can't help but put in my two cents.

Great point Limey.  What happened to smokers is what came to mind when I read this post.

Do you remember the days when people started bitching about smokers on airplanes?  Practical solution:  Smokers sit in designated area, stewardess pulls the curtain and voila! everybody is happy.  Not so much though.  Soon that wasn't good enough.  After all an airplane is nothing but a fucking tube at 20,000 feet.  No more smoking in airplanes.

Since you could no longer smoke in airplanes it really wasn't fair to allow people to smoke anywhere they wanted to in a restaurant.  Practical solution:  Half the restaurant is for smokers, half is for non-smokers.  Not so much though.  Soon that wasn't good enough.  After all, a restaurant is nothing but an enclosed space.  No more smoking in restaurants.  But quit your crying, you can ALWAYS light up at a bar.  More on that later.

Next they went after the workplace.  It just wasn't fair for the guy in the cubical next to you to light up and stink up you airspace.  Practical solution:  Smoke in the break room or outside the back door.  Not so much though.  Soon that wasn't good enough.  After all, everybody uses the break room and a few puffs of smoke could accidently seep into the workplace if somebody opened the back door.  No more smoking at work.

Then they went after the last refuge of cancer seeking scourges of the earth; the bar.  Practical solution:  If you don't like the smell of smoke, just be the pussy that you are and buy your beverage at a liquor store and go home.  Not so much though.  Soon that wasn't good enough.  Turns out that pussies have rights and the smoke infringes on their "allergies" and their rights.  No more smoking in bars.

Here is the fun part.  The smoking ban in bars has almost killed the titty bar business in Houston.  I know this because I met my wife whilst she was serving me drinks at such an establishment in 2006 and though she no longer works there, she does have contacts (some of them are pretty hot for that matter).  Anyways, I digress.  The point is that if they would let people smoke in a FUCKING BAR, then they would improve their taxable income.

By the way, you never did say exactly how they were going to implement the tax.  My assumption is that you hit the customer at the door with a cover.  Personally, I would love it if every time the dancer rubbed her cootch on the pole, she would have to pull out five singles from her g-string and stick it in the tax jar.  That would be awesome.

Thanks.  I'll hang up an listen.

[MusicMan]

I know this because I met my wife whilst she was serving me drinks at such an establishment in 2006 and though she no longer works there, she does have contacts (some of them are pretty hot for that matter). 

In journalism, this is called "burying the lead".

[Bench]

The no smoking in bars brings up an interesting point about the role of regulation in a free market. I like to have a smoke every now and then when I'm out drinking with my buddies and a few of them light up. However, I hate hanging out in a smoky place and going home reeking of smoke to the point that if the establishment had a patio, I would always try and get me and the other smokers I'm with outside.

The liberatarian in me cringes at the legislative fiat that nobody can smoke in bars anymore, though the selfish and practical side of me is absolutely delighted. What I lament is the fact that the free market was incapable of reaching a result that is almost universally preferred by bar patrons, owners, and employees. The vast majority of people I know are much happier that they can go to a bar, have a good time, and come out smelling like they did when they went in instead of doubling as a walking (stumbling) ashtray. And that includes regular smokers as well.

If this is something most people wanted, how come the market didn't solve for that in lieu of political action? It's a classic example of the "race to the bottom" inefficiency of free markets and highlights the role of regulation in our system.

[Bench]

The smoking ban in bars has almost killed the titty bar business in Houston. 

I would have figured that the enforcement of the new 3-foot rule ruining the glorified brothel-aspect of Houston's titty bars, along with the laws geographically limiting where those establishments could be, would have had more of an effect. That being said, I haven't been to any of these places since the last Houston bachelor party I attended over a year and a half ago.

[HudsonHawk]

If this is something most people wanted, how come the market didn't solve for that in lieu of political action?

Because the free market (like the Constitution) isn't necessarily designed to blindly implement the will of the consumer majority.  It's designed to provide options for patronage and to maximize profits.  Restaurants, for example, make more money when they allow smoking.  People simply eat more and drink more when they smoke.  Smoking may have reduced the restaurants prospective client base, but it maximized profits.  Therefore, there was actually a free market incentive to allow it.

[Limey]

I would have figured that the enforcement of the new 3-foot rule ruining the glorified brothel-aspect of Houston's titty bars, along with the laws geographically limiting where those establishments could be, would have had more of an effect. That being said, I haven't been to any of these places since the last Houston bachelor party I attended over a year and a half ago.

THAT's funny!   You said "enforcement" and "3-foot rule" in the same sentence!!!

[Bench]

Because the free market (like the Constitution) isn't necessarily designed to blindly implement the will of the consumer majority.  It's designed to provide options for patronage and to maximize profits.  Restaurants, for example, make more money when they allow smoking.  People simply eat more and drink more when they smoke.  Smoking may have reduced the restaurants prospective client base, but it maximized profits.  Therefore, there was actually a free market incentive to allow it.

What is the evidence showing that allowing indoor smoking maximizes profits? That's seems like an unrealistic argument. I don't know anybody who's dining or drinking habits changed one way or the other based upon the ability to smoke indoors. Folks still need to eat; they still need to drink. I highly doubt that anyone actually drives an hour away for the pleasure of sitting inside and smoking.

[HudsonHawk]

What is the evidence showing that allowing indoor smoking maximizes profits? That's seems like an unrealistic argument.

You've obviously never been in the restaurant business. 

I don't know anybody who's dining or drinking habits changed one way or the other based upon the ability to smoke indoors.

You don't know anyone who drinks more the longer they sit there smoking?  Wow.  How much do you get out?

Folks still need to eat; they still need to drink. I highly doubt that anyone actually drives an hour away for the pleasure of sitting inside and smoking.

Of course not.  But if they can drive 5 minutes and sit and smoke indoors, they will.  That's the point.

[UpTooLate]

In journalism, this is called "burying the lead".

If so, it was not intentional.  Since you bring it up, I'll answer to it.  It was August 2006 and I had been separated from my now ex-wife for three months.  Tired of isolating and feeling sorry for myself, I decided to patronize my neighborhood titty joint and see some naked ladies that weren't my ex-wife for the first time in five years.  The service was friendly and the women were fair to hot.  On my third visit, my waitress asks me "what the hell are you doing here chasing after these skanks?".  I asked if she had a better offer.  Been together ever since.

What was interesting after meeting my current wife was learning about the sordid underbelly of the titty bar business.  Ugly.  Very ugly.  I found out there were two types of dancers.  1) Prostitutes 2) Those that lied about not being a prostitute.  The drug scene going on behind stage and in the audience was alarming.  I pretty much told her, "hey, I dig you and all, but I can't deal with this scene if you remain in it".  She quit the next day.  I was lucky that she was NOT involved in the drug or prostitution stuff.  She needed a job that she could work at night, make good money, and care for her brother (that was dying of cancer) during the daytime.  What really killed the "titty bar fantasty" for me was seeing the place with the all the lights on before they opened.  They literally had somebody with gloves on going through the chairs and couches looking for used condoms.  That pretty much did it for me.  No mas.

Wife and I get along great.  Always thought people talking about being happily married were full of shit.  Maybe not.  My ex hates her because I traded up to a way better model.  That gives me much satisfaction.

[HudsonHawk]

What was interesting after meeting my current wife was learning about the sordid underbelly of the titty bar business.  Ugly.  Very ugly. 

I asked my wife if there was a sordid underbelly of naked women in the tax accounting business.  Alas, there is not.

[Bench]

You've obviously never been in the restaurant business. 

You don't know anyone who drinks more the longer they sit there smoking?  Wow.  How much do you get out?

Of course not.  But if they can drive 5 minutes and sit and smoke indoors, they will.  That's the point.

First: True, my only experience is that I worked as a waiter a couple of years in college. I know very little about the business.

Second: I get out fairly often, and that crowd sits there drinking until they're forced to leave rather than when they're inclined to, so whether they smoke on the patio or don't smoke at all doesn't come in to it.

Third: I'm an inner loop snob and don't know anybody who can drive 5 minutes for the "privilege" of smoking indoors.

The thing is, when I was living in Boston many years ago and a regular smoker, they banned indoor smoking throughout the city. I liked it for the reasons stated earlier, despite the fact that given the urban yankee setting, no place had a porch to hang out on and going out to the street meant leaving your drink and enduring whatever hell weather Boston was treating us to. Fuckers enacted the plan in February, too, if I recall correctly. None of that matters in Houston. Virtually every bar has a porch or yard or patio where you can sit and smoke and drink and the weather is nice most of the year. It's such an easy thing to implement here. The ban here has no effect on the going-out behavior of regular smokers.

[Billy Zabka]

THAT's funny!   You said "enforcement" and "3-foot rule" in the same sentence!!!

I moved from Houston a couple of years ago, and I am hoping to move back.  But, this "3-foot rule" might have some bearing on that.

So, is it being enforced?

[HudsonHawk]

First: True, my only experience is that I worked as a waiter a couple of years in college. I know very little about the business.

Well, there is one indisputable fact about patrons in restaurants: smokers drink more than non-smokers.

Second: I get out fairly often, and that crowd sits there drinking until they're forced to leave rather than when they're inclined to, so whether they smoke on the patio or don't smoke at all doesn't come in to it.

We're not talking smoking on the patio at bars, we're talking about how much they'd drink in a restaurant if they were allowed to smoke at a table.  The crowd that likes to hang around and drink until they're forced to leave are less likely to do it in a restaurant and more likely to find a bar with a patio if they're not allowed to smoke.

Third: I'm an inner loop snob and don't know anybody who can drive 5 minutes for the "privilege" of smoking indoors.

Again, that's my point.  I'm not sure what you're getting at.  If given the opportunity to go to a restaurant 5 minutes from their house and smoke, many would.  Not only that, they would likely purchase more alcoholic beverages while doing so. 

The ban here has no effect on the going-out behavior of regular smokers.

You are dead wrong.  There has been a huge effect on the going-out behaviors of smokers, namely that they're not drinking as much in restaurants, which was my original point.

[Bench]

We're not talking smoking on the patio at bars, we're talking about how much they'd drink in a restaurant if they were allowed to smoke at a table.  The crowd that likes to hang around and drink until they're forced to leave are less likely to do it in a restaurant and more likely to find a bar with a patio if they're not allowed to smoke.

I was talking about smoking in bars being banned. Most restaurants in Houston didn't allow smoking in the dining area for a long time before the bar/anywhere inside ban was implemented last September.

[Limey]

If so, it was not intentional.  Since you bring it up, I'll answer to it.  It was August 2006 and I had been separated from my now ex-wife for three months.  Tired of isolating and feeling sorry for myself, I decided to patronize my neighborhood titty joint and see some naked ladies that weren't my ex-wife for the first time in five years.  The service was friendly and the women were fair to hot.  On my third visit, my waitress asks me "what the hell are you doing here chasing after these skanks?".  I asked if she had a better offer.  Been together ever since.

What was interesting after meeting my current wife was learning about the sordid underbelly of the titty bar business.  Ugly.  Very ugly.  I found out there were two types of dancers.  1) Prostitutes 2) Those that lied about not being a prostitute.  The drug scene going on behind stage and in the audience was alarming.  I pretty much told her, "hey, I dig you and all, but I can't deal with this scene if you remain in it".  She quit the next day.  I was lucky that she was NOT involved in the drug or prostitution stuff.  She needed a job that she could work at night, make good money, and care for her brother (that was dying of cancer) during the daytime.  What really killed the "titty bar fantasty" for me was seeing the place with the all the lights on before they opened.  They literally had somebody with gloves on going through the chairs and couches looking for used condoms.  That pretty much did it for me.  No mas.

Wife and I get along great.  Always thought people talking about being happily married were full of shit.  Maybe not.  My ex hates her because I traded up to a way better model.  That gives me much satisfaction.

Wow!  I think last time I saw you, you'd just broken up from your (now) ex.  We definitely need to have a Roeder's event...soon!

[Limey]

I moved from Houston a couple of years ago, and I am hoping to move back.  But, this "3-foot rule" might have some bearing on that.

So, is it being enforced?

Well, it's also illegal to give blowjobs and sell coke, but that happens too.  Answer your question?

[Limey]

Well, there is one indisputable fact about patrons in restaurants: smokers drink more than non-smokers.

As a non-smoking piss-head, I object to your sweeping generalisation.

[chuck]

As a non-smoking piss-head, I object to your sweeping generalisation.

Smokers have to take time to inhale exhale sometimes and light a new one and so on. Drinkers have no such distractions.

[Limey]

Smokers have to take time to inhale exhale sometimes and light a new one and so on. Drinkers have no such distractions.

Bingo.

[HudsonHawk]

I was talking about smoking in bars being banned.

Well, you originally asked the question "if the majority of people don't want smoking, how come the free market hasn't mandated non-smoking before the law did?" and you then theorized that there must be a flaw in the free market system.  I'm arguing that the flaw isn't in the free market system, but rather in your premise that the free market system will ultimately correct for the will of the majority.  It doesn't, and isn't designed that way.  It's designed to correct for the will of the people who spend the most money, and smokers, in general, simply spend more money at bars and restaurants than do non-smokers.  That's simply an economic fact, long understood. 

Most restaurants in Houston didn't allow smoking in the dining area for a long time before the bar/anywhere inside ban was implemented last September.

Not true.  Non-smoking restaurants is a recent thing.  When I say recent, I mean within the last 5-10 years.  Perhaps your going out in Houston history doesn't extend much further back than that, but it's the truth.

[UpTooLate]

Wow!  I think last time I saw you, you'd just broken up from your (now) ex.  We definitely need to have a Roeder's event...soon!

Bring it on.  The difference now is that the new Mrs. is not a party pooping shrew.  She'll hang out.  She is also not a baseball fan, but we are working on that diligently.

Also, neither of us are smokers (although I'll have the occasional cig when at a bar and legally allowed to do so).  My rant was my libertarian side being exposed over a topic that I have strong opinions on regarding the use of a legal product.

If you don't still have my phone number, just send me a PM or set up a "We need to go to Roeders post".  Thursdays and 1st, 3rd, and 5th weekends are out as those are my visitation times with my son.

As for the posting regarding the 3-foot rule and "enforcement", no need to worry.  It's been since Oct. 06 since I stepped foot in a titty club, but word has it, if you have money in your pocket, you'll have as much fun as your willing to pay for.  For those seeking the ....ummm....shall we say the full experience, I have two words.  Champagne Room.  While I personally never coughed up the cash to visit that dark den of sin, I've heard some pretty good stories about what happens inside.  There is a reason that the manager on duty is always standing in front of that room.  On the flip side, I've also been told that DEA and local law enforcement have taken an increased interest in busting said joints.  I doubt that the above agencies have problems finding volunteers to go on such raids.  I can only imagine the briefings at the station prior to the raids:  "ok men, hit 'em hard and be sure to frisk each lady down thoroughly.  You never know where they may try to stash something.".

[Rebel Jew]

If so, it was not intentional.  Since you bring it up, I'll answer to it.  It was August 2006 and I had been separated from my now ex-wife for three months.  Tired of isolating and feeling sorry for myself, I decided to patronize my neighborhood titty joint and see some naked ladies that weren't my ex-wife for the first time in five years.  The service was friendly and the women were fair to hot.  On my third visit, my waitress asks me "what the hell are you doing here chasing after these skanks?".  I asked if she had a better offer.  Been together ever since.

What was interesting after meeting my current wife was learning about the sordid underbelly of the titty bar business.  Ugly.  Very ugly.  I found out there were two types of dancers.  1) Prostitutes 2) Those that lied about not being a prostitute.  The drug scene going on behind stage and in the audience was alarming.  I pretty much told her, "hey, I dig you and all, but I can't deal with this scene if you remain in it".  She quit the next day.  I was lucky that she was NOT involved in the drug or prostitution stuff.  She needed a job that she could work at night, make good money, and care for her brother (that was dying of cancer) during the daytime.  What really killed the "titty bar fantasty" for me was seeing the place with the all the lights on before they opened.  They literally had somebody with gloves on going through the chairs and couches looking for used condoms.  That pretty much did it for me.  No mas.

Wife and I get along great.  Always thought people talking about being happily married were full of shit.  Maybe not.  My ex hates her because I traded up to a way better model.  That gives me much satisfaction.

This is probably the greatest post I've ever read in the history of this site and the last one, much less the week.  The fact that it's autobiographical and not 'tryin to be funny' pushes it over the top for me.

But since your wife knows some things about the strip club business, I have a couple of questions that I've always wondered (note:  feel free to read these as though they were being spoken in Jerry Seinfeld's accent):

1.  What's the deal with the $5 prime rib and lobster?  Is that really what you're getting?  Is it really decent quality prime rib and lobster?  Is the only catch that it's a way to draw patrons during non-peak titty-watching hours like lunchtime and weekdays (assuming there's no cover during this time), or is the catch a 3 drink minimum or something?  i guess it depends on the establishment, but when i'm listening to sports talk and there's a commercial for a strip club and it talks about how they now have "world famous chef" maurice somethingorother, is that just total b.s.?  is maurice really just the owner's brother-in-law?

2.  Are drugs (and blow jobs for that matter) in strip clubs as overpriced as the drinks?  The insane price of an alcoholic drink at a strip club is the number one reason why I can count my number of lifetime strip club visits on one hand.  But complaining about the price of drinks at strip clubs seems as pointless as complaining about the price of drinks at major league ball parks, which is why I'm wondering about the price of drugs.  Is drugs the same way as alcohol, in that strip clubs just assume that because you're lured by the tantalizing power of the breast that you'll be too hypnotized to care that you're grossly overpaying for them?  I have no idea about the going rate for BJ's these days, but are they as marked up as the other stuff?  Should I just go and assume that the goal of strip clubs is to rip you off no matter what?

3.  What's the deal with those guys who go to strip clubs just so they can have conversations with the strippers?  Do strippers have nicknames for those guys?  I have a, let's just say friend, who's one of those guys, and I very much remember one night at about 2 in the morning he excitedly drug me to a strip club in austin (i can't remember the name but i know it was up north somewhere) with free passes he got from working at a hotel.  Anyway, to my great shock, all he did the whole time we were there was get in these long, banal conversations with the strippers who came by soliciting lap dances.  He didn't buy any lap dances, just getting in these 10 minute+ chats with these strippers about the weather or whatever the hell he was talking about, and they were clearly bored but also probably used to this, and are also probably required to be flirty and polite until they get groped or whatever.  Anyway, what's the deal with these guys?  There must be some stripper lingo for them.  "Oh shit Amber, here comes another Lonely Louie?"  "Don't worry Misty, I'll take him.  You gave that lap dance to that guy with leprosy last week."

[Andyzipp]

This is probably the greatest post I've ever read in the history of this site and the last one, much less the week.  The fact that it's autobiographical and not 'tryin to be funny' pushes it over the top for me.

But since your wife knows some things about the strip club business, I have a couple of questions that I've always wondered (note:  feel free to read these as though they were being spoken in Jerry Seinfeld's accent):

1.  What's the deal with the $5 prime rib and lobster?  Is that really what you're getting?  Is it really decent quality prime rib and lobster?  Is the only catch that it's a way to draw patrons during non-peak titty-watching hours like lunchtime and weekdays (assuming there's no cover during this time), or is the catch a 3 drink minimum or something?  i guess it depends on the establishment, but when i'm listening to sports talk and there's a commercial for a strip club and it talks about how they now have "world famous chef" maurice somethingorother, is that just total b.s.?  is maurice really just the owner's brother-in-law?

2.  Are drugs (and blow jobs for that matter) in strip clubs as overpriced as the drinks?  The insane price of an alcoholic drink at a strip club is the number one reason why I can count my number of lifetime strip club visits on one hand.  But complaining about the price of drinks at strip clubs seems as pointless as complaining about the price of drinks at major league ball parks, which is why I'm wondering about the price of drugs.  Is drugs the same way as alcohol, in that strip clubs just assume that because you're lured by the tantalizing power of the breast that you'll be too hypnotized to care that you're grossly overpaying for them?  I have no idea about the going rate for BJ's these days, but are they as marked up as the other stuff?  Should I just go and assume that the goal of strip clubs is to rip you off no matter what?

3.  What's the deal with those guys who go to strip clubs just so they can have conversations with the strippers?  Do strippers have nicknames for those guys?  I have a, let's just say friend, who's one of those guys, and I very much remember one night at about 2 in the morning he excitedly drug me to a strip club in austin (i can't remember the name but i know it was up north somewhere) with free passes he got from working at a hotel.  Anyway, to my great shock, all he did the whole time we were there was get in these long, banal conversations with the strippers who came by soliciting lap dances.  He didn't buy any lap dances, just getting in these 10 minute+ chats with these strippers about the weather or whatever the hell he was talking about, and they were clearly bored but also probably used to this, and are also probably required to be flirty and polite until they get groped or whatever.  Anyway, what's the deal with these guys?  There must be some stripper lingo for them.  "Oh shit Amber, here comes another Lonely Louie?"  "Don't worry Misty, I'll take him.  You gave that lap dance to that guy with leprosy last week."

Finally, some questions Noé can't answer.

From my limited time dating a "dancer"...

1. The prime rib and lobster are as legit as Sysco can make them.  And it's really about drawing a lunch/happy hour crowd.  The best earners (lets call them the C group) work weeknights, as that's when the guys with expense accounts are bringing clients in.  The B group works weekend nights, dealing with the bachelor party crowd, which for them means less cash per head, but higher volume.  The A group is generally relegated to lunches...hence the term A-Cup lunch.  The free food becomes necessary to get guys to come in during A-Cup Lunch.  The bottom of the barrel work weekend day time.

From what I understand at the Ricks/Treasures/TMC/Centerfolds of the world, "dancers" pay to work their shift (basically starting their shift in arrears.)  The lunch shift (depending on the club) costs little to nothing for the girls to work.  Weekends cost more, and the prime time (Tuesday-Thursday nights) cost the most.  I'm pretty sure it works a little bit differently at the "Diamond Clubs" of the world...but I got that that was the general gist. 

2. Drugs aren't any more expensive from what I could tell from folks who were into that.  The "market forces" don't demand that you buy your illegal narcotics inside the club (unlike the alcohol), so that keeps the prices lower.  Blow jobs cost more than a lap dance, and less than getting laid.  But it depends how many drinks you've purchased, how high they are, and how relatively ugly you are.

3. Probably have more colorful names that I don't remember, but if you aren't paying, they have no interest in you.  So I'd hear things like..."stay away from the Arab on table 6.  He's a spectator."  On the other hand, if you're spending any money at all, you're just a mark.  Most "dancers" hate men on principle.

[UpTooLate]

Thanks for the compliment.  I'll try to handle it briefly.  To begin with, I must say that the joint I met my wife at was one of those middle of the spectrum type places.  Not top notch, but also not bottom feeder material.

1)  The food.  I saw the kitchen (in my line of work, I see a lot of kitchens and this one was piss poor).  About the only way you would get me to eat that food is if I had been locked up in a Turkish prison for a year and that was my first meal.  Now I can't speak for other clubs.  Yes, the food is a loss leader.  Over priced drinks make up for the underpriced lobster.  No, the food is not "fresh".  To me, it's like the guy who goes to IHOP and orders the filet mignon.  WTF?  Go to a steak house dipshit.

2)  Since myself and the Mrs. were not involved in the drug scene, I cannot claim expertise on pricing.  What I can tell you is that if you go to a certain joint on a regular basis, look for the guy that all the girls hang on, but he never buys any dances.  That's your man for the "goods".  He'll give you pricing, or have his posse break your knee caps behind the building.  In regards to the "special services" by the dancers, it's all free market economics.  They'll get you to pay whatever both you and they think it's worth.  Pricing will vary greatly based on both of those variables.  If the dancer is particularly hot and popular, then she has high dollar offers that you're gonna have to exceed.  Or she might be bluffing.  Another important variable is how you look and act.  The dancers are human.  If you are decent looking, well mannered, have reasonable line of bullshit, or your waitress girlfriend is popular with the dancers, you'd be surprised what you can get for near free.  If you are drunk, stinking, asshole pig, then not so much.

3)  The men you described are called cheapskates.  The women that waste time on them are called rookies.  A pro will walk away in under five minutes.  Sometimes it just so happens that a dancer digs a particular guy and is willing to waste time on him for whatever personal reasons.  Make no mistake.  When you walk in, you are at war.  Your objective is to get as much from the dancer as you can with giving up the least amount of money possible.  The dancer's objective is to get as much money out of you with giving up the least amount of "services" necessary.  Dancers also do a great amount of talking amongst themselves about who spends money and who doesn't.  If the hotties are ignoring you, it's because you've been marked.  There are some basic house rules that apply everywhere that will ensure you have a decent time if you adhere to them:

a)  Have at least 20 singles in your pocket and be willing to tip EVERY dancer at least a buck during her routine on stage.  This works wonders.  DO tell her that she's pretty.  DO NOT tell her that you want to invade her anus or grope for her tits.  Tip your waitress well.  What you are looking for is the waitress that is tight with the dancers.  Waitress puts in a good word backstage and you'll have more company than you know what to do with.

b)  It's a titty joint for chrissakes.  Buy a dance or two.  If you are worried about moral issues regarding the respect of women or church guilt, you're in the wrong place buddy.  As mentioned above, word gets around.  The girls will come visit.  Then you get to have casual conversation and call the shots.  If a dancer walks to the table and rudely says "hey, you wanna dance?" without sitting down first, tell her to fuck off.  These women are used to worse and they'll actually respect you for it.

c) So you've finally worked up the gumption to go to the back corner for your $20 dollar dance.  Good for you.  This does not give you free rein to stick your fingers in her g-string, lick her tits, or slap her ass like a race horse.  Ask before you do ANYTHING.  Better yet, negotiate what she will and will not tolerate before you agree to the dance.  IF you are cool and they dig you, you'll be surprised at what they are willing to provide for your $20.  Of course, the music is played at a faster rate than it was recorded at (not by mistake), so if you really had a good time, the pressure will be on to carry over to the next song.  This is where you can negotiate.  Some dancers will give you two fer $30 type deals and so on.  The line of bullshit and the amount of weakness you show is up to you.

d)  Do not fall for any sob stories about how some bitch back stage stole your dancers purse, so she needs you to give her a ride home.  She say's that she'll give you gas money and "make it worth your time".  You are being set up to have your car and wallet stolen, and your ass kicked by the five guys waiting at her "moms" house.  Sure there is plenty of off campus activity that goes on.  These girls are prostitutes.  But protect yourself.  Ever wonder who checks in to those random "luxury executive inns" on side streets?  Proceed at your own risk.  Never did it myself, but I've heard stories both good and bad about those who have.

So much for being brief.  Oh well.  Have fun.

[Limey]

I think this thread justifies the decision to have a separate, non-bb thread.  Highly informative and entertaining, and yet so wrong for the baseball forum.

and my 2c on the subject: 3-foot rule has never been enforced; and in the "Champagne Room" you pretty much have to beat them with sticks to stop them putting their face in your pants.

[BudGirl]

I don't know where else I could ever learn so much.  There is so much more to SnS than Astros baseball.

[otterjb]

Austin advice: the Yellow Rose and Sugars are good. Never, ever, ever go to the place once known as the Crazy Lady right on IH-35, near 38th street.

[Ty in Tampa]

They have a "6-foot rule" here. Go to the Mons Venus any Friday night and see how well it's enforced.

[chuck]

When you walk in, you are at war.  Your objective is to get as much from the dancer as you can with giving up the least amount of money possible.  The dancer's objective is to get as much money out of you with giving up the least amount of "services" necessary.

'At war.' Wow, that is brilliantly put and perfectly encapsulates why I've always been very conflicted about those places.

Now, you understand, if the consensus were to substitute Treasures for Roeder's I could probably have my arm twisted. But I would NOT enjoy myself.

[UpTooLate]

'At war.' Wow, that is brilliantly put and perfectly encapsulates why I've always been very conflicted about those places.

Now, you understand, if the consensus were to substitute Treasures for Roeder's I could probably have my arm twisted. But I would NOT enjoy myself.

Nah.  You'll really have more fun at Roeders with the SnS crowd watching a game and drinking a few brews.  You'll also spend a lot less money at Roeders.  In it's own way it's kind of sad that my area of expertise seems to be titty joints and Mexican whore houses (you'd have to dig deep into the archives for that one).  But hey, we all need to be a specialist at something.  Jim R. for baseball.  UpTooLate for all things immoral.

As previously stated, it's been darn near two years since I set foot in a titty bar, but in my short time of regular patronage back in 06, I got one hell of an education on the subject.  Great stories to go with it.  I'll admit that it's still fun to talk about, because so many guys think that they are stud/experts and they haven't a clue as to how things really work in those places or how to get what they are seeking.

Currently, the wife and I work together at my business and live pretty ordinary lives.  Life is good now.  Glad to have made it through the rough patch of divorce and child custody isssues.  Might even be able to concentrate on the Astro's this year which was really difficult the past two seasons.

[Taras Bulba]

"Mexican whorehouses?"

Is Papagayo's still kicking?

[Rebel Jew]

Nah.  You'll really have more fun at Roeders with the SnS crowd watching a game and drinking a few brews.  You'll also spend a lot less money at Roeders.  In it's own way it's kind of sad that my area of expertise seems to be titty joints and Mexican whore houses (you'd have to dig deep into the archives for that one).  But hey, we all need to be a specialist at something.  Jim R. for baseball.  UpTooLate for all things immoral.

As previously stated, it's been darn near two years since I set foot in a titty bar, but in my short time of regular patronage back in 06, I got one hell of an education on the subject.  Great stories to go with it.  I'll admit that it's still fun to talk about, because so many guys think that they are stud/experts and they haven't a clue as to how things really work in those places or how to get what they are seeking.

Currently, the wife and I work together at my business and live pretty ordinary lives.  Life is good now.  Glad to have made it through the rough patch of divorce and child custody isssues.  Might even be able to concentrate on the Astro's this year which was really difficult the past two seasons.

i can't even keep up with all the awesomeness of this thread.  zipp's war analogy and your industrial film-worthy line

So you've finally worked up the gumption to go to the back corner for your $20 dollar dance...

are probably my favorites so far, but your cautionary tale about the "ride back to mom's house" is no slouch either.  thanks for the thorough answers.  i'll stick to tony roma's for my prime ribs and lobsters.

[SaltyParker]

"Mexican whorehouses?"

Is Papagayo's still kicking?

still alive and well.

[UpTooLate]

your cautionary tale about the "ride back to mom's house" is no slouch either.  thanks for the thorough answers. 

Ok, true story.  I'd made "friends" with one of the dancers after a few weeks.  One night she comes to my table sobbing about how she got her locker ripped off and all her clothes/tips stolen.  It would really be helpful if I would give her a ride to her mothers house.  She would go inside, get $20, and pay me for the gas (she didn't live that far away[red flag]).  Being the generous soul that I am, I said "sure'.  I let my then girlfriend know about it and assured her that nothing else besides transportation would occur.  Girlfriend says "no fucking way buster".  I said "no, really, I'm not gonna do nothing out of line".  Girlfriend says "no fucking way numbskull, are you trying to get killed?".  I laugh it off, but heed her advice.

Two days later, some poor schlub gives the same dancer a ride home when her purse is once again stolen.  He ended up at Herman hospital in serious condition minus his car and his wallet.  As far as I know charges were never filed as the poor victim was married and didn't care to explain to his wife the real reason he ended up in his predicament.

One thing I can say about my wife.  She didn't go to college, but whatever she lacks in advanced education, she more than makes up for in street smarts and common sense.  She's also pretty damn hot.  Oh wait, that's two things.  Oh well.

[Billy Zabka]

As for the posting regarding the 3-foot rule and "enforcement", no need to worry.  It's been since Oct. 06 since I stepped foot in a titty club, but word has it, if you have money in your pocket, you'll have as much fun as your willing to pay for.  For those seeking the ....ummm....shall we say the full experience, I have two words.  Champagne Room.  While I personally never coughed up the cash to visit that dark den of sin, I've heard some pretty good stories about what happens inside.

Thanks.  Never been to the champagne room myself, just looking to get my $20 worth for a dance (I have some weird Puritan streak when it comes to paying for sex, paying for a lap dance, I have no trouble with).

Good to hear things haven't changed too much since I left.  DC strip clubs are terrible, they don't allow lap dances.  First time I went, I did not know that rule.  Not good. 

[Taras Bulba]

Thanks.  Never been to the champagne room myself, just looking to get my $20 worth for a dance (I have some weird Puritan streak when it comes to paying for sex, paying for a lap dance, I have no trouble with).

Good to hear things haven't changed too much since I left.  DC strip clubs are terrible, they don't allow lap dances.  First time I went, I did not know that rule.  Not good. 

A skilled prostitute in Nuevo Laredo can take care of that puritan problem.  Quickly.

[Lurch]

Life lesson for you...

I managed to get my wife to join me at a local club in Austin one night.  All is going well until she asked me to describe my ideal stripper, under the guise of identifying one to call over.  I fell for it and proceded to describe a blond bombshell.  My wife is neither.

[Ty in Tampa]

Life lesson for you...

I managed to get my wife to join me at a local club in Austin one night.  All is going well until she asked me to describe my ideal stripper, under the guise of identifying one to call over.  I fell for it and proceded to describe a blond bombshell.  My wife is neither.

Count the wrong turns, friends.

[UpTooLate]

Life lesson for you...

I managed to get my wife to join me at a local club in Austin one night.  All is going well until she asked me to describe my ideal stripper, under the guise of identifying one to call over.  I fell for it and proceded to describe a blond bombshell.  My wife is neither.

Not sure what the lesson is here.  If it is that your wife was trying to prove to herself that her husband is a cootch chasing hound, then that is bad.  If your wife is "into that kinda thing", then that is good.

One of the rules that I should have placed on my previous post was that if your wife/girlfriend is into the woman/woman thing, then that can be a definite plus and you should definitetly bring her along.  Most especially if your wife/girlfriend is hot.  I have it on good authority from a friend, that most dancers are into other women.  Especially hot women.  Play your cards right and the chances of you ending up with a free triple whammy at the end of the night are very good.  Oddly enough, that is a service that dancers will provide at no cost.  Just make sure that you have full bottles of vodka, bourbon, tequila, and rum at your hotel room (these women drink liquor like athletes chug gatorade on the sideline).  Yes, I said hotel room.  Don't take them to your house.  As soon as you fall asleep, they will take everything their sticky fingers can cram into their tacky dancer bag.  So remember, no snuggling and no slumber party.  Even if you saw stars at your special moment, your eyes are rolled to the back of your head, and you're feeling like Ron Jeremy, when the fun is over, it's time for them to leave.  This is what my friend told me.

Also, don't ever kiss a dancer on the lips.  You have no idea where that mouth has been five minutes previous.  True story:  I once saw a dancer with the cajones  to give a guy a Lewinsky in the back of the club.  Soon over the intercom you hear the D.J. announce "Alright gentlemen, right now to the main stage, give it up for Cinnamon".  The dancer dislodges her mouth from the guy's shaft and runs to the stage for her routine.  Soon enough guys are standing at the stage giving her dollar bills.  She is kissing them on the lips for their generosity.  I wanted to tell them, but it was so funny and I just didn't have the heart to make them puke up their overpriced drinks.

[Limey]

Seems to me that this thread is the appropriate place to post a YouTube link to an ode, not to titties, but to something a little lower.

Happy Friday!

[Billy Zabka]

A skilled prostitute in Nuevo Laredo can take care of that puritan problem.  Quickly.

I know this to be true, but the paying for sex...I don't know, it is just my weird problem.

Odd because I am a big fan of strip clubs (I have even been to Riviera on Westheimer multiple times).

[Billy Zabka]

Houston stripper steals autistic woman's identity to buy a Maserati

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5688308.html

Anyone recognize her?

[HudsonHawk]

Resolution...at last.

The Pole Tax will go into effect tomorrow, so get yer ya-yas out tonight boys and girls.

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-supreme-court-upholds-5-strip-club-fee-174639390.html

[Lurch]

Two Thousand Fucking Eleven.

[BudGirl]

Speed limits are going up also.

[Limey]

Resolution...at last.

The Pole Tax will go into effect tomorrow, so get yer ya-yas out tonight boys and girls.

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-supreme-court-upholds-5-strip-club-fee-174639390.html

Avoid the tx by not serving alcohol.  Genius.  Strip clubs sell more booze - and therefore generate a shitload of tax revenue - than any regular bar in Houston.   So, the court is suggesting a way of stripping (pun intended) two lucrative sources of revenue for the State.  *Golf clap*

[Bench]

Speed limits are going up also.

And noodling is legal.