Mario Williams is a f***ing stud.

[matadorph]

I apologize for interrupting the Mitchell Report/Tejada talk, but this has to be said.

Fuck you Bill Simmons. Fuck you ESPN.

What a game for the 2006 #1 draft pick. The Texans made the right call.

[Colt 45]

Good game tonight, good season.

[jasonact]

Good game tonight, good season.

What? Football? That's still around?

[Fredia]

What? Football? That's still around?

they have to have something between baseball season. for some unknown reason they feel the need to do things other than hot stove, pay attention to spring training, and wait for the magical wonderful most special ooening day. who cann account for taste

[ValpoCory]

I apologize for interrupting the Mitchell Report/Tejada talk, but this has to be said.

Fuck you Bill Simmons. Fuck you ESPN.

What a game for the 2006 #1 draft pick. The Texans made the right call.

Dick Justice, Jr., aka Kirk Bohls, gave the Texans an F, not just for Williams, but for the entire 2006 draft.

[headhunter]

I apologize for interrupting the Mitchell Report/Tejada talk, but this has to be said.

Fuck you Bill Simmons. Fuck you ESPN.

What a game for the 2006 #1 draft pick. The Texans made the right call.

what's vince's record against the texans?

[legs_of_eggs]

what's vince's record against the texans?

what's vince's td-interception ratio this year? face it, Mario is the man and the right pick. Go Texans!

[Amorican_Idol]

Bush is out for the year and couldn't be an every down back when needed, Vince Young has been the worst regular QB in the NFL, and Mario is a Pro Bowler, to be sure.

Also, Lienert is out for the year and was splitting time with Kurt Warner before that. And bitching about it in the press.

So yeah, Williams is looking good.

Good for the Texans.

[matadorph]

what's vince's record against the texans?

This year it's the same as Kerry Collins'.

Fuck Vince Young and his jocksniffers.

[matadorph]

Why is it that when the Titans win it's because of Vince Young, but when they lose it's because of his shitty offensive teammates?

Vince Young isn't even the best player on his own team.

[jasonact]

Why is it that when the Titans win it's because of Vince Young, but when they lose it's because of his shitty offensive teammates?

Vince Young isn't even the best player on his own team.

Bitter much?

[matadorph]

Yes, very. But that's what happens when you live in Austin and have to suffer through clueless Longhorn football fans who affect your ability to watch your team on the local CBS affiliate. (And I say this as a UT alum and former diehard Oiler fan).

[Randy Watson]

Most that dislike are bitter aggys who haven't won a title since the Third Reich or finished in the top 5 since the Eisenhower Administration.  Vince will be fine....2 years from now people will wonder when he learned to pass so well.  He has a real good game and then a real bad game now (look at his gamelog -- his QB rating will be 90+ or around 50).  He is passing much better, he messes up mostly from making bad decisions.  This is much like his soph year at Texas.

Mario is a stud.  I am happy for him.

[DVauthrin]

I'll admit I still wouldn't have taken him if I was the texans front office, but he has earned his props this year.   Why is it that you couldn't just praise your guy and leave young(And yes i'm biased towards VY since I am a UT grad) out of it?   

Lastly, since it was stated that vince's rating blows do to poor decisions, I think it's only fair to point out the titans have the worst combination of offensive skill players both at RB/WR in the league surrounding Young.     Their only saving grace is they have a very solid OL.   

[matadorph]

I am not an Aggie. I am a UT grad. When it comes to sports, I identify with the Astros, Rockets, and Texans. I couldn't care less about the Longhorn football program. I have defended Vince in the past because I think a lot of the criticism has been overstated, but his delusional fans in Austin have made me sick of hearing about him. They cannot let him go and their refusal to do so means the only AFC team in the state of Texas gets repeatedly dissed by KEYE 42.

[matadorph]

I'll admit I still wouldn't have taken him if I was the texans front office, but he has earned his props this year.   Why is it that you couldn't just praise your guy and leave young(And yes i'm biased towards VY since I am a UT grad) out of it?   

Lastly, since it was stated that vince's rating blows do to poor decisions, I think it's only fair to point out the titans have the worst combination of offensive skill players both at RB/WR in the league surrounding Young.     Their only saving grace is they have a very solid OL.   

"Albert Haynesworth, all he does is win baby."

(He's a shitbag, however).

[Tuffguy]

Well, I live in louisiana, and had to deal with all the BS hype of "Thank god the Texans passed on Bush, hes gonna be the greatest player ever" and I couldent stand it.  Bush can't run inbetween the tackles, he's essentially a glorified 3rd down back.  I dont know that I'd have taken Williams, but I know for sure that I woulden't have taken Bush.

[DVauthrin]

I am not an Aggie. I am a UT grad. When it comes to sports, I identify with the Astros, Rockets, and Texans. I couldn't care less about the Longhorn football program. I have defended Vince in the past because I think a lot of the criticism has been overstated, but his delusional fans in Austin have made me sick of hearing about him. They cannot let him go and their refusal to do so means the only AFC team in the state of Texas gets repeatedly dissed by KEYE 42.

That's fine that you feel that way, but Austin isn't obligated to show Texans games as it isn't their hometown.   It's UT first, then pro, so if the majority of viewers want to watch arguably the greatest talent the University has ever had play for them, then that is what gets televised.   I wasn't happy either when I was in college and I always had to watch the Spurs because of SA's proximity to Austin, but I lived with it.

I'll also be up front and say I'm from Katy, a suburb of Houston, and while I identify with the stros and rockets, I do not identify with the texans.    I was an oilers fan as a kid, but after they left I became fans of teams with players I liked to watch, and when the texans returned I never was drawn in.    I would casually pay attention to them at best.   Then after the 2005-2006 drafts when they needed a linebacker and the best one available(Derrick Johnson, yes a Horn which is why it angered me more) fell in their lap at pick 13 but they trade down, while the next year you have Carr at QB, and the hometown potential franchise QB(which is hard to find, plus he played for texas obviously) is sitting there for you at number 1 and you pass on him to take a DE?   I never thought Mario Williams was a bad player, but they needed a franchise QB most, and I obviously wanted Vince, not to mention the houston connection.  

Thus I follow the titans along with the other teams with players I like to watch plus former Horns.   I'll admit the texans have improved this year, and schaub was a good pick up.   But they still need OL help, and a lot of work in the secondary along with a better running back.

As far as haynesworth goes, I was saying their only saving grace other than Vince offensively is their line play.

[DVauthrin]

Well, I live in louisiana, and had to deal with all the BS hype of "Thank god the Texans passed on Bush, hes gonna be the greatest player ever" and I couldent stand it.  Bush can't run inbetween the tackles, he's essentially a glorified 3rd down back.  I dont know that I'd have taken Williams, but I know for sure that I woulden't have taken Bush.

The fact reggie bush won the heisman in 2005 in the largest margin of victory ever was probably the biggest sham in Heisman history.   He got the award basically because he lit up a mediocre fresno state team and ESPN hyped him to death.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's UT first, then pro, so if the majority of viewers want to watch arguably the greatest talent the University has ever had play for them, then that is what gets televised...

You get the Sonics games?

Or maybe I've got the wrong sport.  Do they have a Womens Pro Softball television package?

[Ty in Tampa]

I can't understand how anyone who was an Oilers fan would have anything but contempt for the Titans, VY or no.

[MikeyBoy]

I can't understand how anyone who was an Oilers fan would have anything but contempt for the Titans, VY or no.

You underestimate the power of the VY love.

[Trey]

Most that dislike are bitter aggys who haven't won a title since the Third Reich

This is hilarious.  Isn't this basically true of Texas before two years ago?

[MusicMan]

This is hilarious.  Isn't this basically true of Texas before two years ago?

Not so much.  They had won 3 since A&M's last top 5 appearance.

[Rebel Jew]

Why is it that when the Titans win it's because of Vince Young, but when they lose it's because of his shitty offensive teammates?

Vince Young isn't even the best player on his own team.

Mario isn't even the best player on his team.  Or second best.  Or third best.

[jbm]

I am not an Aggie. I am a UT grad. When it comes to sports, I identify with the Astros, Rockets, and Texans. I couldn't care less about the Longhorn football program. I have defended Vince in the past because I think a lot of the criticism has been overstated, but his delusional fans in Austin have made me sick of hearing about him. They cannot let him go and their refusal to do so means the only AFC team in the state of Texas gets repeatedly dissed by KEYE 42.

This pretty much describes me also.  I like Vince, but it amazes me that up until six weeks ago, the Titans won because Vince had "it."  "He just wins baby."  Well, that theory, as naive as is was, is conveniently set aside for the moment while these same people blame his receivers/Chow/Fisher/etc.  In their minds, he wins even when he loses. 

Congrats to Williams and Kubiak for their present success. They have earned it.

[Trey]

Not so much.  They had won 3 since A&M's last top 5 appearance.

Not so much "who's had been longer" but just that it had been a long time for either one.  It just seems of all the things you could trot out, that's not a real good one.

[ybbodeus]

This year it's the same as Kerry Collins'.

Fuck Vince Young and his jocksniffers.

I'll bet you become very popular with that one!  Fuck the jocksniffers, I agree, but Vince Young's done nothing wrong here.  He's still a local boy done good; it's just that now he works out of town for some ol' son of a bit<h who left his city high and dry for another opportunity.....thank God!

Had a blast at the game last night.  I hadn't been to a game in a couple of years...got to entertain some out of towners from Okie land.  Drayton and Wade were two suites over.  They appeared to argue quite a bit over whose hot dog was whose and whether or not Wade should be allowed to sit up front with the kids.  They kept brigning Drayton's iced tea with lemons instead of limes; I'm betting McPhail was behind that.  Drayton left in the 3rd quarter....they ran out of cotton candy.

EDIT:  I should add that Mario's success suddenly has a rather large chorus of, "I told you so's" phoning into the radio stations.  Success has a 1,000 fathers and all that David Copperfield kind of crap.

[Rebel Jew]

This pretty much describes me also.  I like Vince, but it amazes me that up until six weeks ago, the Titans won because Vince had "it."  "He just wins baby."  Well, that theory, as naive as is was, is conveniently set aside for the moment while these same people blame his receivers/Chow/Fisher/etc.  In their minds, he wins even when he loses. 

this is pretty much the problem with the majority of football commentary and fandom in general.  despite the increasingly technical and complicated nature of what is as much of a team sport as there is, the commentary continues to fixate on the overpraise of intangibles ("VY just wins," "Brett Favre is like a little kid out there," etc.) and tunnel visioned praise of an obvious skill ("Warren Sapp's still got it" after making a sack, while ignoring that the opposing team is racking up ten yard runs up the gut on nearly every play). 

ironically, baseball commentary is developing the opposite problem, fixating too much on an overly detailed analysis of what causes a team to win, while seeming to ignore and often have an outright disdain for the impact of intangibles, mental makeup, and the significance of a player who does one thing really well.

[astrox]

I've only been in Houston since 1998, but in those nearly 10 years I'll still never understand the middle school mentality of the A&M vs. UT rivalry and how it spills over to everyday life.  I find it both incredibly funny and incredibly sad all at the same time.

[ybbodeus]

I've only been in Houston since 1998, but in those nearly 10 years I'll still never understand the middle school mentality of the A&M vs. UT rivalry and how it spills over to everyday life.  I find it both incredibly funny and incredibly sad all at the same time.

It's not THAT unique an issue to Texas; it's kind of a southern thing....Alabama, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia and even lil' o'Mississippi have it, too.  And that's just for football, meaning Kentrucky just joined this party in the last two or three years, now that the 'ville and the cats have learned the game.  If Vandy should get ITS act together, Tennessee might join the hate show, but it would take a sustained decade of Vandy excellence (ain't happenin') to get THAT one up there.

[Froback]

Most that dislike are bitter aggys who haven't won a title since the Third Reich or finished in the top 5 since the Eisenhower Administration.  Vince will be fine....2 years from now people will wonder when he learned to pass so well.  He has a real good game and then a real bad game now (look at his gamelog -- his QB rating will be 90+ or around 50).  He is passing much better, he messes up mostly from making bad decisions.  This is much like his soph year at Texas.

Mario is a stud.  I am happy for him.

I am an Aggie, and everything you say is true about A&M.  And while I would like them to do better, I hold no ill will to any player from Texas, except on the specific day they play, and even then it is more a matter of hoping the Aggies play better.

That being said, your comments on Vince and where he will be in 2 years, I would remind you that a ton of people said the same thing about Michael Vick.  Heck I just heard a Cowboy player on a radio show (yes I live in Dallas) actually claim if he was starting a franchise today, Vick would be his 1st pick.  I hope Vince does discover how to harness all his obvious talent and make it work to his benefit in the NFL (although I wish death upon the Titans because of Bud Adams).  I have just noticed that it is very rare that a player "suddenly" figures it out in the NFL.  Most show either the ability day 1, or a stead progress toward "figuring it out".  There was a time when QBs didn't play much in the early part of their career because the coaching knew they needed time to learn and adjust.  So what Tony Romo has done the last couple of seasons was more the norm, but in today's NFL if you are drafted high you are expected to come in and almost right away produce.  Vince has enjoyed a great deal of success winning games, but I think you are hard pressed to say he was a big reason for most of those wins.  Heck, even Rex Grossman went to the Superbowl, and I doubt anyone thinks he is a good QB.  So wins don't always tell the story with QBs, but I will say that QBs are rated more than any other position based on their teams wins and losses.

But as for the Texans and Mario Williams, I think they made the right choice.  I think if you are building a team, yes it is nice to have a good QB, good RB, good WR and such, but you want to build a team that will win consistently, you need to start with the DL and OL.  You work from there first, and then build the other parts.  The last things I think you add are the QB and RB, not that you don't look to add them, but what good is a QB if you can't protect them, and what good is a good offense if you can't stop the opponents.

Much like baseball where if you are building a team, you should focus as WadeSmith have preached, with pitching, defense and speed.  Having hitting is nice for show, and you will need it to win it all, but if you want consistent success, you need the others more.  In Football you need quality play in the trenches to win consistently.

And as for Mario not being the best, 2nd best or 3rd best on his team...  Give him some time.  He may not be one of them yet, but I bet you he will be soon.  He may never be "better" than AJ, but if I were to guess, he looks like he will be better than anyone else very soon.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I've only been in Houston since 1998, but in those nearly 10 years I'll still never understand the middle school mentality of the A&M vs. UT rivalry and how it spills over to everyday life.  I find it both incredibly funny and incredibly sad all at the same time.

Ever heard of Michigan and Ohio State?

[headhunter]

Fuck Vince Young and his jocksniffers.
[/quote]

I am not an Aggie. I am a UT grad. When it comes to sports, I identify with the Astros, Rockets, and Texans. I couldn't care less about the Longhorn football program. I have defended Vince in the past because I think a lot of the criticism has been overstated, but his delusional fans in Austin have made me sick of hearing about him. They cannot let him go and their refusal to do so means the only AFC team in the state of Texas gets repeatedly dissed by KEYE 42.

you might not be an aggie but you're grouchier than a nutsqueezing coreman who sees a ut student steppin on kyle field after a loss.

My kids have a five month old english springer spaniel who definitely is into jocksniffing. Maybe you could get a puppy too--you could play in the laundry together and relax. you know, tranquillo.

Though we are both UT alums and Astros fans, that's were it ends. The first 8 spots on my fan list are occupied by the Astros. The final two are UT and Nebraska football (fans of both teams a long time before the big twelve). The NFL really doesn't exist for me except that sometimes I hear good things about some of the players who played for the horns or cornhuskers--which makes me happy for them. Watching Vince Young lead the team to victory all those many years ago made me happy. I thought it might be a cool thing for the Texans to hire the local kid who went to college a short drive away and did well. It didn't happen and life went on. But when I hear that Vince Young is doing well, I'm happy for him. I hope he wins a few superbowls, and if he plays in one I would watch it, which I usually don't.

Now what I really don't understand about you is why you're so pissy about austin dwellers being longhorn fans and why they should give a fuck about the Texans?

[jasonact]

Ever heard of Michigan and Ohio State?

Have you? I lived in Michigan for 4 years. The media like to make a lot of Michigan/OSU, and there is definitely something to it, but it's nothing compared to the petty trash that happens every year between UT and TAMU. Although I don't really care much about either, for whatever reason, it seems that TAMU throws the most trash in a middle-school sort of way.

[Rebel Jew]

I've only been in Houston since 1998, but in those nearly 10 years I'll still never understand the middle school mentality of the A&M vs. UT rivalry and how it spills over to everyday life.  I find it both incredibly funny and incredibly sad all at the same time.

having grown up in texas, the thing i don't get is the suddenly crazy texas-ou rivalry.  it was certainly always a big deal with the texas-ou game, but seemingly only in the brown-stoops era has it become the juvenile shit-spewing fest that it currently is.  growing up, the A&M rivalry was always front and center, with oklahoma mostly being known because of the brian bosworth/barry switzer business than for being a hated rival of ut.

[Froback]

having grown up in texas, the thing i don't get is the suddenly crazy texas-ou rivalry.  it was certainly always a big deal with the texas-ou game, but seemingly only in the brown-stoops era has it become the juvenile shit-spewing fest that it currently is.  growing up, the A&M rivalry was always front and center, with oklahoma mostly being known because of the brian bosworth/barry switzer business than for being a hated rival of ut.

You are showing your age then.  I actually think Texas/OU was bigger than Texas/A&M for the majority of the 1900s, although i think Texas/A&M has been a "rivalry" longer.

[subnuclear]

having grown up in texas, the thing i don't get is the suddenly crazy texas-ou rivalry.  it was certainly always a big deal with the texas-ou game, but seemingly only in the brown-stoops era has it become the juvenile shit-spewing fest that it currently is.  growing up, the A&M rivalry was always front and center, with oklahoma mostly being known because of the brian bosworth/barry switzer business than for being a hated rival of ut.

I think people from Houston tend to think the A&M rivalry is a bigger deal than the OU rivalry.  The opposite is true of UT fans from Dallas.  Its just my experience.  

[subnuclear]

I can't understand how anyone who was an Oilers fan would have anything but contempt for the Titans, VY or no.

When they moved to Tennessee, I still liked Steve McNair, Eddie George and Jeff Fisher enough that I watched the games and rooted for them in the Super Bowl.  The fact that the owner of their team is a complete asswipe wasn't their fault. 

[jasonact]

I think people from Houston tend to think the A&M rivalry is a bigger deal than the OU rivalry.  The opposite is true of UT fans from Dallas.  Its just my experience.  

I think that's probably right. Having grown up in the Houston area, I definitely heard more about UT/TAMU from the people in the community, although the particular community I grew up in was innundated with aggie fans.

[Rebel Jew]

I think people from Houston tend to think the A&M rivalry is a bigger deal than the OU rivalry.  The opposite is true of UT fans from Dallas.  Its just my experience.  

that's what i was going to say.  dallas and houston is probably a big difference.  way back when i was a kid (the 80's!), everybody was either a longhorn or an aggie.  nowhere near as much hate for or from oklahoma.  now it's all oklahoma sucks, horns down, blah blah blah.

[Frobie]

Have you? I lived in Michigan for 4 years. The media like to make a lot of Michigan/OSU, and there is definitely something to it, but it's nothing compared to the petty trash that happens every year between UT and TAMU. Although I don't really care much about either, for whatever reason, it seems that TAMU throws the most trash in a middle-school sort of way.

My impression as an Ohio State grad/Ohio native is that there is less day-to-day interaction between OSU and Michigan folks up there than there is here in Texas between UT/A&M fans.  There are certain areas of Ohio (and Michigan too, I'm sure) where they mix-and-mingle a lot, but I just didn't know that many UM people during my time growing up and attending OSU.

I also lived in South Carolina for 5 years and actually worked at USC (no, the other one) for a bit.  The Carolina-Clemson rivalry reminds me a lot of UT/A&M, though on a smaller scale.  Again, I think it's because they are both in-state schools and wherever you go in the state, there are plenty of people who went to one or the other who are constantly at each others throats.

Just my $0.02.

[kevinG]

Mario is indeed looking like a better overall player now but the rush to judgment on the whole Mario/VY/Bush debate is ridonkulous. Last year, VY and Bush were studs and the Texans were the worst-managed team in history. This year, they're prescient oracles who saw this coming a mile away.

I'm a huge UT fan and still think the Texans shouldn't have passed on Young (related?), but QBs always take more time to develop. Last year, the Titans were winning games with defense, running, and some flashy Young plays that got him anointed. This year their defense and running games are down and Young understandably has been overwhelmed. He needs a few more years to develop and for anyone to have a solid opinion.

I've never been high on Bush. He's an intriguing player, to be sure, but he's definitely not an every-down back in the NFL. The way the Saints used him last year is maybe the best way to utilize his talents (sending him in motion pre-snap, lining up in the slot, change-of-pace for a bruiser like Deuce, trying to bounce him to the outside, punt returns). But this year especially has proven that, if you've got a competent O-line, you can almost pick up anybody off the scrap heap to start at RB in the NFL. Using a high draft pick like that would be a waste.

And of course Mario has been great this year. But I think he was the most NFL-ready of those three players. He's got freakish physical gifts and fits in with the Texans' build-the-D philosophy. Like I said earlier, I still think VY will turn out to be a top-10 starter in the NFL, but Mario certainly was not as bad a pick as heralded at the time.

Everyone needs to ignore the media's rush to crown the best player in the draft. A few years of development is needed.

[Jacksonian]

I've never been high on Bush. He's an intriguing player, to be sure, but he's definitely not an every-down back in the NFL. The way the Saints used him last year is maybe the best way to utilize his talents (sending him in motion pre-snap, lining up in the slot, change-of-pace for a bruiser like Deuce, trying to bounce him to the outside, punt returns).

This is funny.  When Deuce was coming out of Ole Miss he was considered an oft-injured speed back who likely couldn't take the pounding in the NFL.  Now, he's a bruiser.

[Noe]

This is funny.  When Deuce was coming out of Ole Miss he was considered an oft-injured speed back who likely couldn't take the pounding in the NFL.  Now, he's a bruiser.

Steriods?

[Rebel Jew]

I'm a huge UT fan and still think the Texans shouldn't have passed on Young (related?), but QBs always take more time to develop. Last year, the Titans were winning games with defense, running, and some flashy Young plays that got him anointed. This year their defense and running games are down and Young understandably has been overwhelmed. He needs a few more years to develop and for anyone to have a solid opinion.

their defense is awesome this year.  they struggled with haynesworth out, but have been dominating in every other game.

[Jacksonian]

Steriods?

Dedication and hard work.

Deuce's lawyer will be in touch with you soon.

[TheWizard]

You are showing your age then.  I actually think Texas/OU was bigger than Texas/A&M for the majority of the 1900s, although i think Texas/A&M has been a "rivalry" longer.

I think UT-OU has always seemed bigger growing up, and I'm not from Dallas.  I also think the A&M game is bigger, in general, for Ags.  So that can skew the point of view.

OU on the other hand... you watch OU all season long, and everytime they win its "f'ing OU, I hate them so much." 

[Noe]

Dedication and hard work.

Deuce's lawyer will be in touch with you soon.

Not my fault, I told the feds what I knew and what I knew was told to me by the trainer who was told by another player who was told by a cheerleader who said she doesn't really know what steroids are, but she once saw Deuce drink a shake that he called "vitamin shake".  So that's enough for me... he's a juicer.

[Randy Watson]

I am an Aggie, and everything you say is true about A&M.  And while I would like them to do better, I hold no ill will to any player from Texas, except on the specific day they play, and even then it is more a matter of hoping the Aggies play better.

That being said, your comments on Vince and where he will be in 2 years, I would remind you that a ton of people said the same thing about Michael Vick.  Heck I just heard a Cowboy player on a radio show (yes I live in Dallas) actually claim if he was starting a franchise today, Vick would be his 1st pick.  I hope Vince does discover how to harness all his obvious talent and make it work to his benefit in the NFL (although I wish death upon the Titans because of Bud Adams).  I have just noticed that it is very rare that a player "suddenly" figures it out in the NFL.  Most show either the ability day 1, or a stead progress toward "figuring it out".  There was a time when QBs didn't play much in the early part of their career because the coaching knew they needed time to learn and adjust.  So what Tony Romo has done the last couple of seasons was more the norm, but in today's NFL if you are drafted high you are expected to come in and almost right away produce.  Vince has enjoyed a great deal of success winning games, but I think you are hard pressed to say he was a big reason for most of those wins.  Heck, even Rex Grossman went to the Superbowl, and I doubt anyone thinks he is a good QB.  So wins don't always tell the story with QBs, but I will say that QBs are rated more than any other position based on their teams wins and losses.

But as for the Texans and Mario Williams, I think they made the right choice.  I think if you are building a team, yes it is nice to have a good QB, good RB, good WR and such, but you want to build a team that will win consistently, you need to start with the DL and OL.  You work from there first, and then build the other parts.  The last things I think you add are the QB and RB, not that you don't look to add them, but what good is a QB if you can't protect them, and what good is a good offense if you can't stop the opponents.

Much like baseball where if you are building a team, you should focus as WadeSmith have preached, with pitching, defense and speed.  Having hitting is nice for show, and you will need it to win it all, but if you want consistent success, you need the others more.  In Football you need quality play in the trenches to win consistently.

And as for Mario not being the best, 2nd best or 3rd best on his team...  Give him some time.  He may not be one of them yet, but I bet you he will be soon.  He may never be "better" than AJ, but if I were to guess, he looks like he will be better than anyone else very soon.

You make a reasonable point.  But I counter that a lot of QB's struggle early in their careers.  Especially when they have garbage to throw to (and that includes UT alum Bo Scaife who should be nothing more than a backup).

Vince also struggled passing his first two years at Texas.  Much like he is right now -- one or two really good games and then one or two really crappy games (in fact his soph year at Texas was also similar because Vince had no help at WR).  A lot of media and opposing fans gave Texas a lot of crap about and said Vince should move to running back.  He got it together and finished the next season leading the nation in pass efficiency.

It is too early to tell.

[HudsonHawk]

Dick Justice, Jr., aka Kirk Bohls, gave the Texans an F, not just for Williams, but for the entire 2006 draft.

The draft that netted Williams and DeMeco Ryans.  Williams may not turn into the superstar they'd hoped, but he's a good player.  Ryans is too.  Bohls is an idiot.

[HudsonHawk]

Mario isn't even the best player on his team.  Or second best.  Or third best.

He's probably the third best.

[mihoba]

He's probably the third best.

Hell of a game last night.

Check your PM, por favor.

[Randy Watson]

I am a Texas alum  The UT rivalry with A&M rivalry is more respectful.  The schools are more similar than different, and we are fellow Texans.  To me, it is a bigger deal because I know a lot more Ags -- my wife, certain family members, and many that are some of my very best friends.  It is like a rivalry between brothers.  I want to beat A&M because when we lose I have to hear about it on a daily basis.

The rivalry with OU is quite different.  It is based on more pure hatred.  We are Texans.  They are Oklahomans -- a wasteland whose economy rises and falls with fluctuations in the price of skunk pelts and methamphetamines.  It is a rivalry with mulleted, inbred white trash who prefer driving rusted out IROCs or El Caminos.  OU alums are basically six-toed mouthbreathing carnies with missing teeth, or at best (like Jason White), a jacked up grill.  

[dirty steve]

The draft that netted Williams and DeMeco Ryans.  Williams may not turn into the superstar they'd hoped, but he's a good player.  Ryans is too.  Bohls is an idiot.

...and owen daniels, eric winston, and charles spencer.  thats five starters opening day starters in 2006 (and all but spencer were/are starters in 2007).  daniels might make the pro bowl next year and winston is entrenched at RT for the next 8-10 years.  spencer would be the starting LT if dayne hadnt stepped on his foot at Indy last year.

give kubiak and rick smith credit for filling in holes with guys like will demps and andre davis and getting a starting CB in fred bennett in the 4th round this year. 

the team will likely draft in the mid-teens in 2008 and should to grab a tackle or an RB such as johnathan stewart (oregon).

fyi--it was comical the other day how a caller in to 1560 measured tenn10 and mario on who has more potential down the road.  shouldnt potential  see gradual improvement year to year?  instead its "vy doesnt have enough offensive weapons."  i didnt hear any of that last year when people credited him with all those wins.

[ybbodeus]

I am a Texas alum  The UT rivalry with A&M rivalry is more respectful.  The schools are more similar than different, and we are fellow Texans.  To me, it is a bigger deal because I know a lot more Ags -- my wife, certain family members, and many that are some of my very best friends.  It is like a rivalry between brothers.  I want to beat A&M because when we lose I have to hear about it on a daily basis.

The rivalry with OU is quite different.  It is based on more pure hatred.   We are Texans.  Thay are Oklahomans--a wasteland whose economy rises and falls with fluctuations in the price of skunk pelts and methamphetamines.  It is a rivalry with mulleted, inbred white trash who prefer driving rusted out IROCs or El Caminos.  OU alums are basically six-toed mouthbreathing carnies with missing teeth, or at best (like Jason White), a jacked up grill.  

Bingo, except for my one modest little fly in the ointment, which is that their fans are Oklahomans; their f'ing players, for the most part, are Texans...turncoat Texans.

Special note:  in the six months that I lived in Tulsa, I fractured and later had to have extracted two molars.  What IS it with that toothless air up there?

[ybbodeus]

Ever heard of Michigan and Ohio State?

You only have to go to one football game in C'bus to realize those fuckers hate EVERYBODY!  Their goal is to make your total experience misreable, from parking your car to walking to the stadium, finding your seats, ordering your dog & coke, watching the game, trying to cheer for your team, getting to the restroom, out of the stadium, back to you car....and even beyond.

Of course, if might have been the "Woody Sucks" hat I was wearing......not sure.


{EDIT}  Greatest shirt I ever saw?  Knoxville, TN worn by some cig-smoking, gum-smackin' old crispy haired bleached-blue blonde woman that read, "Fuck the luck, the Irish suck."  Tennessee wasn't playing Notre Dame until the next week!

[legs_of_eggs]

Everyone its really this simple, fuck the Cowboys and Titans and most importantly fuck Vince Young

[ybbodeus]

Everyone its really this simple, fuck the Cowboys and Titans and most importantly fuck Vince Young

Don't forget Espa Gomez and the fucking Diaz brothers!  What have they ever done for us?

[dirty steve]

Everyone its really this simple, fuck the Cowboys and Titans

fixed.  i dont like tenn-10, but my loathing for the team up north and the fake oilers outlasts even that.

[legs_of_eggs]

fixed.  i dont like tenn-10, but my loathing for the team up north and the fake oilers outlasts even that.

Yeah, I watched last years Titans-Texans games with Austin bandwagon idiots who latch on to whatever winning team in Texas they can (ie Spurs, Cowboys, Longhorns) and it wasn't pretty so this is where I'm coming from with hating Vince. The worst part was seeing Texans Longhorn fans hopping on the Titans bandwagon right in my living room after VY's run (which was bullshit anyways cause NFL OT rules are retarded).

[dirty steve]

Yeah, I watched last years Titans-Texans games with Austin bandwagon idiots who latch on to whatever winning team in Texas they can (ie Spurs, Cowboys, Longhorns) and it wasn't pretty so this is where I'm coming from with hating Vince. The worst part was seeing Texans Longhorn fans hopping on the Titans bandwagon right in my living room after VY's run (which was bullshit anyways cause NFL OT rules are retarded).

there will be some who you wont ever, ever be able to convince them that mario was a good pick over vy.  after this year, vy and mario will likely be tied in amount of probowls attended and super bowl rings won but vince fans will continue to wax poetic about his "it" and "all he does is win games."  if the tacks lose this weekend, they will be tied for last place just like the Texans.  mario has shown clear improvement while vince has, if not regressed, has gotten worse.  you hear people tear mario down for last year and they dont mention that he played through a painful foot injury, and not using said injury for any type of excuse.  but when vince doesnt do well its because he doesnt have enough weapons.  i thought sainthood enabled you to transcend that.

[ybbodeus]

Ya'll's posts got me to harkening back to the BudDome days and having to endure a disturbingly annoying chant from the agro-oriented fans in attendance pining aloud for the back-up quarterback...."Go, Bucky!  Go, Aggies!  Go, Oilers!"

The Vince tub thumping show can be equated with that same blind love of Bucky, though Bucky cannot be equated with Vince.

[Andyzipp]

Ya'll's posts got me to harkening back to the BudDome days and having to endure a disturbingly annoying chant from the agro-oriented fans in attendance pining aloud for the back-up quarterback...."Go, Bucky!  Go, Aggies!  Go, Oilers!"

The Vince tub thumping show can be equated with that same blind love of Bucky, though Bucky cannot be equated with Vince.

Despite the fact that Bucky was worshipped on campus, you'd be hard pressed to find 10 Ags (even in 1992) who thought that he was going to be a NFL quarterback, much less a sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

You'd be hard pressed to find 10 Texas-Exes who don't think Young is going to be sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

[matadorph]

That's fine that you feel that way, but Austin isn't obligated to show Texans games as it isn't their hometown.   It's UT first, then pro, so if the majority of viewers want to watch arguably the greatest talent the University has ever had play for them, then that is what gets televised.   I wasn't happy either when I was in college and I always had to watch the Spurs because of SA's proximity to Austin, but I lived with it.

I don't agree. Yes, KEYE should be obligated to show the Texans. (And my maps say your Spurs comparison is just a little screwy). I fully understand the reason there's significant local interest in VY, but so what? He plays in Possum Holler for the Evilest Owner Ever who deserves nothing but our contempt. Vince Young has a bright future, but he's one player and football is still a team sport. As a former Oiler fan--a true Oiler fan--these so-called Titans "fans" aren't real Titans fans, they're bandwagon UT alums who probably never really cared about NFL football until His Jesusness went pro. So because of them I should be forced to trudge to a local sports bar to watch the only AFC team in the entire state of Texas? What's next? Preempting the Astros in favor of the Oakland A's because Huston Street played for the Longhorns?   

In a perfect world I'd love to see VY and MW become the best players at their respective positions, but these Titans turncoats in Austin make it hard for me to cheer Vince. You wanna see VY? Go to the Posse East.

[Lurch]

Despite the fact that Bucky was worshipped on campus, you'd be hard pressed to find 10 Ags (even in 1992) who thought that he was going to be a NFL quarterback, much less a sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

You'd be hard pressed to find 10 Texas-Exes who don't think Young is going to be sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

[Raises Hand]

[Randy Watson]

Despite the fact that Bucky was worshipped on campus, you'd be hard pressed to find 10 Ags (even in 1992) who thought that he was going to be a NFL quarterback, much less a sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

You'd be hard pressed to find 10 Texas-Exes who don't think Young is going to be sure fire Hall-of-Famer.

And Bucky and Vince are similar how?

[legs_of_eggs]

I don't agree. Yes, KEYE should be obligated to show the Texans. (And my maps say your Spurs comparison is just a little screwy). I fully understand the reason there's significant local interest in VY, but so what? He plays in Possum Holler for the Evilest Owner Ever who deserves nothing but our contempt. Vince Young has a bright future, but he's one player and football is still a team sport. As a former Oiler fan--a true Oiler fan--these so-called Titans "fans" aren't real Titans fans, they're bandwagon UT alums who probably never really cared about NFL football until His Jesusness went pro. So because of them I should be forced to trudge to a local sports bar to watch the only AFC team in the entire state of Texas? What's next? Preempting the Astros in favor of the Oakland A's because Huston Street played for the Longhorns?   

In a perfect world I'd love to see VY and MW become the best players at their respective positions, but these Titans turncoats in Austin make it hard for me to cheer Vince. You wanna see VY? Go to the Posse East.

Amen.

[Andyzipp]

And Bucky and Vince are similar how?

They both played quarterback...other than that, I was repsonding to: "Ya'll's posts got me to harkening back to the BudDome days and having to endure a disturbingly annoying chant from the agro-oriented fans in attendance pining aloud for the back-up quarterback...."Go, Bucky!  Go, Aggies!  Go, Oilers!"

The Vince tub thumping show can be equated with that same blind love of Bucky, though Bucky cannot be equated with Vince."

[matadorph]

Bucky was no Vince, but Vince ain't Commander Cody, either.

Cody!

[HudsonHawk]

Bucky was no Vince, but Vince ain't Commander Cody, either.

Cody!

I liked Bucky, despite his being an Aggie.  He may not have been a great QB, but he wasn't a putz.  I'd like to like Vince Young, but when I see things like him on 60 Minutes saying "can't nobody tell me nothin", I wince.

[DVauthrin]

I don't agree. Yes, KEYE should be obligated to show the Texans. (And my maps say your Spurs comparison is just a little screwy). I fully understand the reason there's significant local interest in VY, but so what? He plays in Possum Holler for the Evilest Owner Ever who deserves nothing but our contempt. Vince Young has a bright future, but he's one player and football is still a team sport. As a former Oiler fan--a true Oiler fan--these so-called Titans "fans" aren't real Titans fans, they're bandwagon UT alums who probably never really cared about NFL football until His Jesusness went pro. So because of them I should be forced to trudge to a local sports bar to watch the only AFC team in the entire state of Texas? What's next? Preempting the Astros in favor of the Oakland A's because Huston Street played for the Longhorns?   

In a perfect world I'd love to see VY and MW become the best players at their respective positions, but these Titans turncoats in Austin make it hard for me to cheer Vince. You wanna see VY? Go to the Posse East.

I can make the same argument about why a non pro sports town has every right to show whatever team they think will get them the most viewers.   And as far as forcing you to a sports bar or to purchase NFL ticket, boo hoo, you aren't in an NFL city and the city cares more about Vince than the Texans, who are by no means Austin's team.  It's Horns first, pro second and the majority has spoken on what they wish to see.   Get over yourself, the world never revolves around any of us.   Also there is no such thing as a Titans turncoat in Austin because Austin is not the city that is home to the Texans, hate to burst your bubble.

Um the Spurs comparison is just as valid.  Austin has no pro sports teams, but SA is the team that has the most fans in that city do to it's proximity, but if there was a far greater dallas or houston fan base there instead, they would show them instead.   Not because it's just the only Texas team.   

[MikeyBoy]

Not so much.  They had won 3 since A&M's last top 5 appearance.

TU has won 3 since 1995?

[Curly]

VY made Titan fans are just Cowboy fans that also want to watch VY.  Cowboy fans will not turn their game off to watch VY which is why KEYE didn't show the Titan game on Sunday, becuase it would go up against the Cowboys and their ratings would suck.  I like VY, and like watching him play to see what he can do, the Titan franchise can get lost in one of Bud's chins for all I care.  I expect to have some of the same problem next year, but the better our record is, the better likelhood of more coverage.  Finish this year strong and we have a case....other than being the only AFC team in the state...which should be good enough.

[Randy Watson]

TU has won 3 since 1995?

The sheep humpers have finished in the top 5 twice.  One during the Third Reich (1939) and once in the fifties.  I guess they should start squeezing their balls harder.

[MikeyBoy]

The sheep humpers have finished in the top 5 twice.  One during the Third Reich (1939) and once in the fifties.  I guess they should start squeezing their balls harder.

You sound a little bitter. MM's statement was "top 5 appearance" not top 5 finish, A&M sat at #3 in 1995 for 5 weeks. Just a point of clarity, that's all. Texas has definately got the hardware advantage on the Aggies, no disputing that.

[ybbodeus]

They both played quarterback...other than that, I was repsonding to: "Ya'll's posts got me to harkening back to the BudDome days and having to endure a disturbingly annoying chant from the agro-oriented fans in attendance pining aloud for the back-up quarterback...."Go, Bucky!  Go, Aggies!  Go, Oilers!"

The Vince tub thumping show can be equated with that same blind love of Bucky, though Bucky cannot be equated with Vince."

Seems clear to YOU that I wasn't going for the exacta on that one, AZ, but perhaps not to all.  I was merely pointing out the similarities between the two band camps, Bucky's and VY's.  Now, if word were to seep out about a Lick Sisters Party video in which VY was allegedly in attendance, we're have to start figuring out which jackhead within Bud's offices is drawing up these templates....and stuff.

[MusicMan]

You sound a little bitter. MM's statement was "top 5 appearance" not top 5 finish, A&M sat at #3 in 1995 for 5 weeks. Just a point of clarity, that's all. Texas has definately got the hardware advantage on the Aggies, no disputing that.

You're right, I should have said "finish", since A&M is one of the top teams in all of 1-A for finishing below their preseason ranking.

Hardware advantage - both team and individual; head-to-head advantage; overall record advantage; any way you look at it, A&M has been and always will be little brother.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

You're right, I should have said "finish", since A&M is one of the top teams in all of 1-A for finishing below their preseason ranking.

Hardware advantage - both team and individual; head-to-head advantage; overall record advantage; any way you look at it, A&M has been and always will be little brother.

Yet you longhorns aren't upset by the back to back losses the past two years, right?

[Andyzipp]

You're right, I should have said "finish", since A&M is one of the top teams in all of 1-A for finishing below their preseason ranking.

Hardware advantage - both team and individual; head-to-head advantage; overall record advantage; any way you look at it, A&M has been and always will be little brother.

Is there anyone really disputing this?

[MusicMan]

Yet you longhorns aren't upset by the back to back losses the past two years, right?

I managed not to throw things this year.  That was an improvement.

[MusicMan]

Is there anyone really disputing this?

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104592.msg172380#msg172380

[Andyzipp]

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104592.msg172380#msg172380

Trey went to Rice.  What the heck does he know?!?

Do you tend to find that people who went to neither school are the most vocal about the shortcomings of the rival school? For the most part the guys I know (my general age) who went to Texas are pretty happy with the last several years for their team, but pretty loathe to get vicious about the smack talking.  The t-shirts, however, are brutal.  A&M doesn't have a lot in the way of t-shirts right now, but in the mid 90's, I'm recalling they were pretty damn obnoxious as well.

[MikeyBoy]

Hardware advantage - both team and individual; head-to-head advantage; overall record advantage; any way you look at it, A&M has been and always will be little brother.

Well, in my lifetime it's been primarily a hardware advantage. (2 #1 finishes and a BCS Championship | 2 Heisman Trophy winners) I have no idea about overall record, but head-to-head since I've been alive is 18-18.

[MusicMan]

Trey went to Rice.  What the heck does he know?!?

Do you tend to find that people who went to neither school are the most vocal about the shortcomings of the rival school? For the most part the guys I know (my general age) who went to Texas are pretty happy with the last several years for their team, but pretty loathe to get vicious about the smack talking.  The t-shirts, however, are brutal.  A&M doesn't have a lot in the way of t-shirts right now, but in the mid 90's, I'm recalling they were pretty damn obnoxious as well.

Absolutely.  What I would call the bandwaggoners - aka, the t-shirts - are ridiculous.

I sat through the 46-3 Cotton Bowl.  All of it.  I sat through 66-3.  All of it.  It teaches you humility.

[MusicMan]

Well, in my lifetime it's been primarily a hardware advantage. (2 #1 finishes and a BCS Championship | 2 Heisman Trophy winners) I have no idea about overall record, but head-to-head since I've been alive is 18-18.

Too lazy to look it up, but it's something like 73-36.

[Trey]

Trey went to Rice.  What the heck does he know?!?

Do you tend to find that people who went to neither school are the most vocal about the shortcomings of the rival school? For the most part the guys I know (my general age) who went to Texas are pretty happy with the last several years for their team, but pretty loathe to get vicious about the smack talking.  The t-shirts, however, are brutal.  A&M doesn't have a lot in the way of t-shirts right now, but in the mid 90's, I'm recalling they were pretty damn obnoxious as well.

Exactly.  That guy's a moron.  

Wait a minute...

All I said was that it was funny for a UT fan to throw around the "it's been forever since you won a NC" when that was basically true of UT before two years ago.

[Andyzipp]

Well, in my lifetime it's been primarily a hardware advantage. (2 #1 finishes and a BCS Championship | 2 Heisman Trophy winners) I have no idea about overall record, but head-to-head since I've been alive is 18-18.

I have never really bought this argument.  A&M has been far more competitive with Texas since scholarship limitations were introduced and A&M made the Corps non-compulsary. Texas leads 20-18 since 1970.  But if you want to play that game, you have to discount A&M's national championship, the 1918 and 1919 seasons, John David Crow, etc.

A&M has rarely played consistenly well against Texas.  The .338 winning percentage proves that. But we are what we are (top 20 all time in wins and top 25 all time in winning percentage), and while I'd like to win more often in football games against Texas, and the last 37 years are a trend in a better direction, Texas will always be able to trump those cards because they've done it on the field.

[Andyzipp]

Exactly.  That guy's a moron.  

Wait a minute...

All I said was that it was funny for a UT fan to throw around the "it's been forever since you won a NC" when that was basically true of UT before two years ago.

Their forever has been a little bit shorter than ours.  I wonder how horrible it was for some of the older Texas grads that A&M won it's National Championship in football 24 years before Texas did.

[HudsonHawk]

Their forever has been a little bit shorter than ours.  I wonder how horrible it was for some of the older Texas grads that A&M won it's National Championship in football 24 years before Texas did.

Neither school has ever won a "National Championship" in football.  But that's another argument, irrespective of the two schools.

[Astroholic]

Neither school has ever won a "National Championship" in football.  But that's another argument, irrespective of the two schools.

That argument never more valid than this year.

[Andyzipp]

Neither school has ever won a "National Championship" in football.  But that's another argument, irrespective of the two schools.

Yes, mythical, right.  Take what you can get.

[MusicMan]

Neither school has ever won a "National Championship" in football.  But that's another argument, irrespective of the two schools.

Saying "#1 finish in the AP, UPI, CNN/Usa Today, Harris, or other poll of national standing at the conclusion of the season, or in certain eras, at the conclusion of the regular season" is just too tiring.

[HudsonHawk]

Saying "#1 finish in the AP, UPI, CNN/Usa Today, Harris, or other poll of national standing at the conclusion of the season, or in certain eras, at the conclusion of the regular season" is just too tiring.

All the more reason to actually have a National Championship.  If nothing else than for expediency.

[Phil_in_CS]

All the more reason to actually have a National Championship.  If nothing else than for expediency.

when you look at the money that the NCAA men's basketball finals generate, its hard to see how there's not a football championship tourney, even one of 8 or fewer teams. A month's worth of games, play the championship the Saturday before the Superbowl, deposit a billion or so dollars.

[Astroholic]

when you look at the money that the NCAA men's basketball finals generate, its hard to see how there's not a football championship tourney, even one of 8 or fewer teams. A month's worth of games, play the championship the Saturday before the Superbowl, deposit a billion or so dollars.

Hey old dogs, heres a new trick.

[drew corleone]

The t-shirts, however, are brutal.  A&M doesn't have a lot in the way of t-shirts right now, but in the mid 90's, I'm recalling they were pretty damn obnoxious as well.

After 12-7 I had a buddy, an A&M grad, tell me that he respected me as a fan, because I actually attended UT, but that he hated all the t-shirt fans. In the wake of the loss I was too beaten down to remind him that in our formative years, it was the other way around. I don't like "t-shirt fans" of any ilk, but what can you do? No one appointed me arbitrator of true fandom. As soon as someone does, I'll be happy to collect all of the burnt orange apparel from those whose interaction with The University begins and ends with the discount rack at Academy.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

After 12-7 I had a buddy, an A&M grad, tell me that he respected me as a fan, because I actually attended UT, but that he hated all the t-shirt fans. In the wake of the loss I was too beaten down to remind him that in our formative years, it was the other way around. I don't like "t-shirt fans" of any ilk, but what can you do? No one appointed me arbitrator of true fandom. As soon as someone does, I'll be happy to collect all of the burnt orange apparel from those whose interaction with The University begins and ends with the discount rack at Academy.

I second these comments.

[HudsonHawk]

After 12-7 I had a buddy, an A&M grad, tell me that he respected me as a fan, because I actually attended UT, but that he hated all the t-shirt fans. In the wake of the loss I was too beaten down to remind him that in our formative years, it was the other way around. I don't like "t-shirt fans" of any ilk, but what can you do? No one appointed me arbitrator of true fandom. As soon as someone does, I'll be happy to collect all of the burnt orange apparel from those whose interaction with The University begins and ends with the discount rack at Academy.

So you're saying that unless you attened a university, you shouldn't be allowed to be a fan of said university's sports teams?  A little harsh on regional pride, aren't you?

[Curly]

So you're saying that unless you attened a university, you shouldn't be allowed to be a fan of said university's sports teams?  A little harsh on regional pride, aren't you?

DAMN IT!  Since I didn't actully suit up for the team, that means that all those years before Houston annexed Clear Lake City, I really had no right to cheer for the Astros, Rockets, and Oilers?

[Bench]

So you're saying that unless you attened a university, you shouldn't be allowed to be a fan of said university's sports teams?  A little harsh on regional pride, aren't you?

You can be a fan. Just not a "true" fan. And you must submit yourself to being mocked by the "true fans" like drew.

[drew corleone]

So you're saying that unless you attened a university, you shouldn't be allowed to be a fan of said university's sports teams?  A little harsh on regional pride, aren't you?

I'm not saying that at all.

[drew corleone]

You can be a fan. Just not a "true" fan. And you must submit yourself to being mocked by the "true fans" like drew.

I'm not saying that, either.

[Astroholic]

You can be a fan. Just not a "true" fan. And you must submit yourself to being mocked by the "true fans" like drew.

As stated in earlier post, I graduated from UH-Downtown (which technically does not have any sport teams).  I attended San Jac, Blinn (college station), Southwest Texas, UH Downtown and Central.   I also somewhat like the aggies as well as LSU.  I am not sure what T-Shirt I am allowed to wear (I wear whatever the hell I want). My brother (aTm grad) is always talking about T-shirt T-sips.  I think he is jealous.

[Andyzipp]

As stated in earlier post, I graduated from UH-Downtown (which technically does not have any sport teams).  I attended San Jac, Blinn (college station), Southwest Texas, UH Downtown and Central.   I also somewhat like the aggies as well as LSU.  I am not sure what T-Shirt I am allowed to wear (I wear whatever the hell I want). My brother (aTm grad) is always talking about T-shirt T-sips.  I think he is jealous.

A t-shirt (at least in the intented parlance) is the guy who owns the shirt of whomever is winning currently, and is their biggest fan.  Until next year.

[Astroholic]

A t-shirt (at least in the intented parlance) is the guy who owns the shirt of whomever is winning currently, and is their biggest fan.  Until next year.

And I get that, but I still think there is somewhat of a "little brother" jealousy thing going on.  He was also sending me aTm propaganda that stated aTm was the best education for the money in the nation.  I have still not stopped laughing about that one.

[drew corleone]

A t-shirt (at least in the intented parlance) is the guy who owns the shirt of whomever is winning currently, and is their biggest fan.  Until next year.

Yep. They're typically the person with the "championship" gear and nothing else.

[Andyzipp]

And I get that, but I still think there is somewhat of a "little brother" jealousy thing going on.  He was also sending me aTm propaganda that stated aTm was the best education for the money in the nation.  I have still not stopped laughing about that one.

Understood, but if A&M is cheaper tuition wise than Texas, and the educations in most departments are comprable, wouldn't that be accurate?

[Astroholic]

Understood, but if A&M is cheaper tuition wise than Texas, and the educations in most departments are comprable, wouldn't that be accurate?

I said in the NATION.

[otterjb]

It's just easier to be emotionally invested in a team that represents the school that you attended. One of the main things that make college sports so great, I think. That's not to say that it can't be at the same level for someone that didn't attend. Hell, Astro University has yet to produce a graduate, but it doesn't lessen anything.

[Andyzipp]

I said in the NATION.

Missed that part.  And I'd argue that "for the money" both A&M and Texas are pretty high up that list. In-state tuition in Texas is pretty damn cheap compared to other places.

[Astroholic]

Missed that part.  And I'd argue that "for the money" both A&M and Texas are pretty high up that list. In-state tuition in Texas is pretty damn cheap compared to other places.

I am currently looking for the article.  I am not sure 'for the money' was even a part of the criteria.  I think it was Best school in the Nation.  I agree that they are both fine establishments.

[ybbodeus]

I sat through the 46-3 Cotton Bowl.  All of it.  I sat through 66-3.  All of it.  It teaches you humility.

Not to mention that every dog has its day, at least in the second score you mentioned.  I mean, UCLA wasn't favored in that debacle, was it?  I still couldn't believe that game....NEVER saw that coming.

I've sat through Reedy, Roberts, Steele & Morriss in what can best be described as Baylor's post-Teaff reality  check, my point being humility is merely scratching the surface of what BAYLOR games teach you.

I've never seen a school work so hard to convince itself that Teaff wasn't the reason for its previous success as Baylor has attempted to do over the last 15 or so years.  Alas, that ignorance has helped my alma mater to provide at least four exhibits in the glossary of definitions for the word INSANITY...doing the same thing repeatedly but each time expecting different results.

In reality the Briles hiring represents Baylor's first of someone with more than a year or two of successful D1 experience.  Given that reality, perhaps our oft criticized AD (foolishly criticized, I might add) did in fact know what he was doing.  

My UofH buds have riddled me fairly consistently with the tired old, "Let's see how YOU like it when he leaves Baylor in a couple of years."  I understand their resentment, but in Baylor's case were Briles to leave after just a couple of years, might that not just mean that he's turned the corner and made us a viable competitior again?  

Less I seem delusional to some of you, I acknowledge that there are other more negative possibilities for an early Briles departure, but I choose not to go into those at this time.  YOU may feel free to do so, however.  I'm sure EVERYONE would appreciate a Super Mario thread turning into a bullshit Baylor one.

I should add that Baylor will take ANY t-shirt fan who wishes to be recognized as a TRUE fan but without all that annoying and useless reading and writing and arithmetic ala Waco.  Why?  Because "we need the dues."

Shadows and Dust....

[Andyzipp]

Not to mention that every dog has its day, at least in the second score you mentioned.  I mean, UCLA wasn't favored in that debacle, was it?  I still couldn't believe that game....NEVER saw that coming.

I've sat through Reedy, Roberts, Steele & Morriss in what can best be described as Baylor's post-Teaff reality  check, my point being humility is merely scratching the surface of what BAYLOR games teach you.

I've never seen a school work so hard to convince itself that Teaff wasn't the reason for its previous success as Baylor has attempted to do over the last 15 or so years.  Alas, that ignorance has helped my alma mater to provide at least four exhibits in the glossary of definitions for the word INSANITY...doing the same thing repeatedly but each time expecting different results.

In reality the Briles hiring represents Baylor's first of someone with more than a year or two of successful D1 experience.  Given that reality, perhaps our oft criticized AD (foolishly criticized, I might add) did in fact know what he was doing.  

My UofH buds have riddled me fairly consistently with the tired old, "Let's see how YOU like it when he leaves Baylor in a couple of years."  I understand their resentment, but in Baylor's case were Briles to leave after just a couple of years, might that not just mean that he's turned the corner and made us a viable competitior again?  

Less I seem delusional to some of you, I acknowledge that there are other more negative possibilities for an early Briles departure, but I choose not to go into those at this time.  YOU may feel free to do so, however.  I'm sure EVERYONE would appreciate a Super Mario thread turning into a bullshit Baylor one.

I should add that Baylor will take ANY t-shirt fan who wishes to be recognized as a TRUE fan but without all that annoying and useless reading and writing and arithmetic ala Waco.  Why?  Because "we need the dues."

Shadows and Dust....

I think Briles was a good hire for you guys.  Has the connections amongst high school coaches to succeed, and runs an "equalizing" offense.

[Astroholic]

I am currently looking for the article.  I am not sure 'for the money' was even a part of the criteria.  I think it was Best school in the Nation.  I agree that they are both fine establishments.

Found it

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_08/011908.php

Just like any poll...well you know.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm not saying that at all.

Well then please clarify your remarks.

[Andyzipp]

Found it

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_08/011908.php

Just like any poll...well you know.

Ah...so it was crap.  Gotcha.

[Rebel Jew]

i was at the ucla game, and while i didn't necessarily see that much of a blowout coming, everybody was a bit spooked to begin with by the lackluster performance the previous week against rutgers.

and despite their failures of recent years, baylor's greatest victory is and will always continue to be convincing UT to piggyback them into the big 12.  any tcu grads on this board?

Not to mention that every dog has its day, at least in the second score you mentioned.  I mean, UCLA wasn't favored in that debacle, was it?  I still couldn't believe that game....NEVER saw that coming.

I've sat through Reedy, Roberts, Steele & Morriss in what can best be described as Baylor's post-Teaff reality  check, my point being humility is merely scratching the surface of what BAYLOR games teach you.

I've never seen a school work so hard to convince itself that Teaff wasn't the reason for its previous success as Baylor has attempted to do over the last 15 or so years.  Alas, that ignorance has helped my alma mater to provide at least four exhibits in the glossary of definitions for the word INSANITY...doing the same thing repeatedly but each time expecting different results.

In reality the Briles hiring represents Baylor's first of someone with more than a year or two of successful D1 experience.  Given that reality, perhaps our oft criticized AD (foolishly criticized, I might add) did in fact know what he was doing.  

My UofH buds have riddled me fairly consistently with the tired old, "Let's see how YOU like it when he leaves Baylor in a couple of years."  I understand their resentment, but in Baylor's case were Briles to leave after just a couple of years, might that not just mean that he's turned the corner and made us a viable competitior again?  

Less I seem delusional to some of you, I acknowledge that there are other more negative possibilities for an early Briles departure, but I choose not to go into those at this time.  YOU may feel free to do so, however.  I'm sure EVERYONE would appreciate a Super Mario thread turning into a bullshit Baylor one.

I should add that Baylor will take ANY t-shirt fan who wishes to be recognized as a TRUE fan but without all that annoying and useless reading and writing and arithmetic ala Waco.  Why?  Because "we need the dues."

Shadows and Dust....

[HudsonHawk]

Missed that part.  And I'd argue that "for the money" both A&M and Texas are pretty high up that list. In-state tuition in Texas is pretty damn cheap compared to other places.

I cannot fathom what it costs to educate oneself today.  My entire undergraduate education cost less than $5,000 (which includes the $1,200 or so for geology field camp).  Tuition for my first sememster, 17 hours, was $68 ($4/hour for any state school, UH, UT, ATM, SFA, what have you).  My entire freshman year, tuition, books, fees, parking, etc was a whopping $602.  I tell people that and they think I've lost my mind, but it's the truth.  "For the money", I'll put my BS from UofH up against anyone's.

[Jacksonian]

I cannot fathom what it costs to educate oneself today.  My entire undergraduate education cost less than $5,000 (which includes the $1,200 or so for geology field camp).  Tuition for my first sememster, 17 hours, was $68 ($4/hour for any state school, UH, UT, ATM, SFA, what have you).  My entire freshman year, tuition, books, fees, parking, etc was a whopping $602.  I tell people that and they think I've lost my mind, but it's the truth.  "For the money", I'll put my BS from UofH up against anyone's.

In state tuition for a Texas resident at a 4-year public school will cost you about $4000 per semester right now give or take a few hundred dollars depending on the school for 15 credit hours.

And the legislature recently put the brakes on UT system schools rapidly increasing tuition.

[HudsonHawk]

In state tuition for a Texas resident at a 4-year public school will cost you about $4000 per semester right now give or take a few hundred dollars depending on the school for 15 credit hours.

And the legislature recently put the brakes on UT system schools rapidly increasing tuition.

Wow.  That's nearly $300/hour.  Incredible.  Is state tuition not the same everywhere anymore? 

[drew corleone]

Clarifying, for HH...

After 12-7 I had a buddy, an A&M grad, tell me that he respected me as a fan, because I actually attended UT, but that he hated all the t-shirt fans.

T-shirt fans = people that only wear a team's gear when they are successful. He's referring to the large volume of people in Temple wearing Texas gear at present, who didn't used to wear Texas gear. Texas had greatly improved in the decade-plus since we attended HS, a time at which A&M enjoyed much more success at football.

In the wake of the loss I was too beaten down to remind him that in our formative years, it was the other way around.

Texas A&M enjoyed much more success at football than Texas when we were younger (aka "our formative years"). A larger number of people in Temple wore Texas A&M gear than Texas gear.

I don't like "t-shirt fans" of any ilk, but what can you do? No one appointed me arbitrator of true fandom. As soon as someone does, I'll be happy to collect all of the burnt orange apparel from those whose interaction with The University begins and ends with the discount rack at Academy.

T-shirt fans = people that only wear a team's gear when they are successful. Championship gear tends to get discounted at popular retailers like Academy after an initial novelty period, thus making it easy for T-shirt fans to procure at substantially lower prices.

Does that clear it up? Maybe I should offer the disclaimer next time that if you want to be "that guy" that reads far too much into a post because you have some weird issue with the poster's previous posts, that I'm not referring to "group X."

I know people that never set foot in a UT classroom that are as die-hard as fans can be. I knew people in college that couldn't pick Ricky Williams out of a lineup, yet would make clever comments aboout "faggies" or "Blow U" whenever "we" beat them. T-shirt fans exist everywhere, pro and college, regardless of their educational pedigree. They're annoying, no matter.

[Jacksonian]

Wow.  That's nearly $300/hour.  Incredible.  Is state tuition not the same everywhere anymore? 

Nope.  The legislature deregulated tuition some time ago.  Right now in the UT system the state is paying about the same amount as the student is for his/her education.  IOW, the state's putting in ~$4000 for every $4000 the student pays.  That's a far cry from what they paid back in your day, obviously.

[Phil_in_CS]

Wow.  That's nearly $300/hour.  Incredible.  Is state tuition not the same everywhere anymore? 

Tuition is capped, so its fees + fees + fees + fees at A&M. You pay for the bus pass even if you don't ride it; you pay for the huge fitness center, even if you don't use it. Lab fees even if you don't have labs, and more lab fees if you do.

I worked my way through A&M 1981 to 1988. I don't think that's possible any more.

[HudsonHawk]

Clarifying, for HH...
T-shirt fans = people that only wear a team's gear when they are successful.

Always heard them referred to as "bandwagon fans".

Maybe I should offer the disclaimer next time that if you want to be "that guy" that reads far too much into a post because you have some weird issue with the poster's previous posts, that I'm not referring to "group X."

Maybe you should just be the guy who doesn't make up his own language and then get sand in his vagina when asked to clarify.

[HudsonHawk]

Nope.  The legislature deregulated tuition some time ago.  Right now in the UT system the state is paying about the same amount as the student is for his/her education.  IOW, the state's putting in ~$4000 for every $4000 the student pays.  That's a far cry from what they paid back in your day, obviously.

Must be that influx of lottery money.

[HudsonHawk]

I worked my way through A&M 1981 to 1988. I don't think that's possible any more.

I worked my way through UoH, so I know what you mean.  Of course, I was living on $300/month, paying rent, bills, beer money, etc out of that, so coming up with $300/semester for school was basically a months pay.  Surely college students don't earn $4,000/month waiting tables and moving furniture, do they?

[MikeyBoy]

In reality the Briles hiring represents Baylor's first of someone with more than a year or two of successful D1 experience.  Given that reality, perhaps our oft criticized AD (foolishly criticized, I might add) did in fact know what he was doing.  

I married into a family of die hard Coog fans, so over the last 7 years I've been to most home games, a few away games, as well as the Ft. Worth and Liberty Bowls. In my opinion, Briles' personality will fit in well at Baylor and the program should improve under him. His offense is effective and exciting, he's also very good at finding good football players that have been overlooked by the big boys, which is in large part due to his aformentioned connections with Texas high school coaches. He's a players coach that for the most part recruits well rounded kids that rarely get into trouble with the law.

Briles' shortcomings are he focuses too much on the offense (he's the OC) in practice and during games, his offense turns the ball over a lot, the team commits a ton of penalties, they have horrible special teams, and often appear not ready to play.

[Jacksonian]

I worked my way through UoH, so I know what you mean.  Of course, I was living on $300/month, paying rent, bills, beer money, etc out of that, so coming up with $300/semester for school was basically a months pay.  Surely college students don't earn $4,000/month waiting tables and moving furniture, do they?

Financial lenders are doing tremendous business.  They're also under increased scrutiny.  That I know of at least 2 directors of financial aid in the state have left recently due to "irregularities".

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I worked my way through UoH, so I know what you mean.  Of course, I was living on $300/month, paying rent, bills, beer money, etc out of that, so coming up with $300/semester for school was basically a months pay.  Surely college students don't earn $4,000/month waiting tables and moving furniture, do they?

I worked my way thru A&M, mostly, with some help from student loans.  I don't think it is possible any more.  For those of us with young children, it's downright frightening.  I know what my student loan tab was and that will be a drop in the bucket for my kids if I don't plan well.  My financial planner/adviser suggested I use a ballpark figure of 100k to put my 5yr old thru college.  I haven't spoken to my FA in a couple years so I have no idea what figure he'd use for my 2yr old.  I don't know how "scientific" that projection is but it's still a daunting number, even if it's only half that figure. 

[HudsonHawk]

I worked my way thru A&M, mostly, with some help from student loans.  I don't think it is possible any more.  For those of us with young children, it's downright frightening.  I know what my student loan tab was and that will be a drop in the bucket for my kids if I don't plan well.  My financial planner/adviser suggested I use a ballpark figure of 100k to put my 5yr old thru college.  I haven't spoken to my FA in a couple years so I have no idea what figure he'd use for my 2yr old.  I don't know how "scientific" that projection is but it's still a daunting number, even if it's only half that figure. 

That's when Judge Smails would say "well, the world needs ditch diggers too".

[Andyzipp]

I worked my way through UoH, so I know what you mean.  Of course, I was living on $300/month, paying rent, bills, beer money, etc out of that, so coming up with $300/semester for school was basically a months pay.  Surely college students don't earn $4,000/month waiting tables and moving furniture, do they?

I also worked my way through college.  When I graduated in the winter of 1994, tuition was ~1,000 per semester for 15 hours, including fees, sports passes, etc.

[Astroholic]

I married into a family of die hard Coog fans, so over the last 7 years I've been to most home games, a few away games, as well as the Ft. Worth and Liberty Bowls. In my opinion, Briles' personality will fit in well at Baylor and the program should improve under him. His offense is effective and exciting, he's also very good at finding good football players that have been overlooked by the big boys, which is in large part due to his aformentioned connections with Texas high school coaches. He's a players coach that for the most part recruits well rounded kids that rarely get into trouble with the law.

Briles' shortcomings are he focuses too much on the offense (he's the OC) in practice and during games, his offense turns the ball over a lot, the team commits a ton of penalties, they have horrible special teams, and often appear not ready to play.

If he was so good at finding talent (look right under your nose), he would have signed the Rodgers brothers from Lamar Cons.  I am still hoping that Jacquizz stays home to play at UH.  I personally think Briles will go down in flames.  We shall see.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/hso/5382263.html

Added link for State Champ.  Guy is incredible!

[Jacksonian]

I worked my way thru A&M, mostly, with some help from student loans.  I don't think it is possible any more.  For those of us with young children, it's downright frightening.  I know what my student loan tab was and that will be a drop in the bucket for my kids if I don't plan well.  My financial planner/adviser suggested I use a ballpark figure of 100k to put my 5yr old thru college.  I haven't spoken to my FA in a couple years so I have no idea what figure he'd use for my 2yr old.  I don't know how "scientific" that projection is but it's still a daunting number, even if it's only half that figure. 

My best suggestion is scholarships.  I know how it sounds but there are groups all over just trying to give away money.  For many of them you have to be in a particular major or a member of a particular group.  But there's money there.  Also, start doing college selection homework in the 9th grade.  Don't wait until later.

[Astroholic]

I married into a family of die hard Coog fans, so over the last 7 years I've been to most home games, a few away games, as well as the Ft. Worth and Liberty Bowls. In my opinion, Briles' personality will fit in well at Baylor and the program should improve under him. His offense is effective and exciting, he's also very good at finding good football players that have been overlooked by the big boys, which is in large part due to his aformentioned connections with Texas high school coaches. He's a players coach that for the most part recruits well rounded kids that rarely get into trouble with the law.

Briles' shortcomings are he focuses too much on the offense (he's the OC) in practice and during games, his offense turns the ball over a lot, the team commits a ton of penalties, they have horrible special teams, and often appear not ready to play.

And one more thing, I think the Coogs ended up with the better coach.  Again, we shall see.

[HudsonHawk]

I also worked my way through college.  When I graduated in the winter of 1994, tuition was ~1,000 per semester for 15 hours, including fees, sports passes, etc.

Which reminds me of one of my buddies from college who sold sperm to pay his tuition.  Back then, you got $75 a pop.  That was nearly a full year's tuition. 

[drew corleone]

Always heard them referred to as "bandwagon fans".

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... "T-Shirt" fans isn't exactly a new arrival to the sports lexicon.

Maybe you should just be the guy who doesn't make up his own language and then get sand in his vagina when asked to clarify.

You bet, chief.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

My best suggestion is scholarships.  I know how it sounds but there are groups all over just trying to give away money.  For many of them you have to be in a particular major or a member of a particular group.  But there's money there.  Also, start doing college selection homework in the 9th grade.  Don't wait until later.

Fortunately, I married a smart woman who utilized these options, where I did not.  However, I do recall my personality in 9th grade.  I won't air my self loathing here but I will offer that I didn't have a clue what major I wanted to pursue at that point in life.  Needless to say, I will be cracking the whip on AP classes and testing.  I took the AP classes, I was more apathetic about the tests.  I'll also seriously consider relocating to a school system that allows highschool upper-classmen to obtain college level credits thru a cooperative program with a local community college (a growing trend).

It seems you have to have a versatile approach.  AP credits, CC credits while in HS, hunt for scholarships, student loans, and parents doing their best to provide some form of college savings plan.  I wonder if at some point the equation one takes in deciding to go to college vs simply getting a job won't swing in favor of getting a vocational certification and just work your way up. 

I value my time at A&M and the doors it's opened but I can honestly say there is very little I learned at A&M that I currently use in my my job.  At least, nothing they tought in a class but that's a different discussion.

[MikeyBoy]

And one more thing, I think the Coogs ended up with the better coach. 

I do too.

[subnuclear]

My best suggestion is scholarships.  I know how it sounds but there are groups all over just trying to give away money.  For many of them you have to be in a particular major or a member of a particular group.  But there's money there.  Also, start doing college selection homework in the 9th grade.  Don't wait until later.

Advance Placement courses in High School are also a good idea, even if the course isn't offered you can still take the test.  Florida has a nice program of having community college feed directly into the 4-year state colleges like UF and FSU.  Two years at a local community college plus 2 years at a four-year can save a lot of money.   Co-op programs for certain majors are also a good deal and employers love to see that.   

There are places like Applied Research Laboratories in Austin that let undergrads work flex hours and will pay their tuition if their GPA is high enough and they work 20 hours a week (non-trivial when your going to school).    I probably learned more at the job there than I did in my coursework. 

Of course, this implies you are actually going to school to learn things and not the many other things people do at universities. 

[Astroholic]

Fortunately, I married a smart woman who utilized these options, where I did not.  However, I do recall my personality in 9th grade.  I won't air my self loathing here but I will offer that I didn't have a clue what major I wanted to pursue at that point in life. 

Hah!  In the ninth grade.  I still did not know what I wanted to do with 60+ hours of college credits under my belt.  When I meet my wife, she helped me decide (in a hurry).  I do not use my finance degree day to day.

I think 4 year college, community college, vocational, etc. will all be options to each of my three kids.  Depends on the kid.

[Jacksonian]

It seems you have to have a versatile approach.  AP credits, CC credits while in HS, hunt for scholarships, student loans, and parents doing their best to provide some form of college savings plan. 

A warning.  If your child is undecided going into college having a lot of AP and CC credits can put him/her in a tough spot.  Those credits usually go toward university core credits.  Once you get past that it's on to the major.  Undecided kids really shouldn't have much credit going in.  At least none applied.  Some schools will let you apply your AP credits later, some time after starting school or just before graduating.  Also, and fun for parents, nationally about 65% of students change their major at least once.  Got to be careful not to waste classes.

RE AP tests: Not all universities take all AP tests for credit.  You've got to do your homework.  High schools get paid by College Board per test so they are going to push kids to take the tests.  You have to get a feel for what's best for your kid early on.  AP classes are generally fine though.

Safe bets for community college credit:  2 semesters of US history and 2 semesters of US/Texas govt.  Both are required by law for any student wanting to graduate from a state of Texas school.

[Astroholic]

A warning.  If your child is undecided going into college having a lot of AP and CC credits can put him/her in a tough spot.  Those credits usually go toward university core credits.  Once you get past that it's on to the major.  Undecided kids really shouldn't have much credit going in.  At least none applied.  Some schools will let you apply your AP credits later, some time after starting school or just before graduating.  Also, and fun for parents, nationally about 65% of students change their major at least once.  Got to be careful not to waste classes.

RE AP tests: Not all universities take all AP tests for credit.  You've got to do your homework.  High schools get paid by College Board per test so they are going to push kids to take the tests.  You have to get a feel for what's best for your kid early on.  AP classes are generally fine though.

Safe bets for community college credit:  2 semesters of US history and 2 semesters of US/Texas govt.  Both are required by law for any student wanting to graduate from a state of Texas school.

English and Algebra are also core requirements, correct? 

[Jacksonian]

Florida has a nice program of having community college feed directly into the 4-year state colleges like UF and FSU.  Two years at a local community college plus 2 years at a four-year can save a lot of money.   Co-op programs for certain majors are also a good deal and employers love to see that.   

Some Texas community colleges have agreements with some of Texas' 4-year schools as well.  Parents have to do their homework, big time!

[Jacksonian]

English and Algebra are also core requirements, correct? 

Depends on the school and major.  Only the US history and US/Texas govt are mandated.  And the specific govt requirement is 6 hours total and US and Texas constitutions have to be covered.  No AP testing out of the Texas constitution requirement.

[Astroholic]

Depends on the school and major.  Only the US history and US/Texas govt are mandated.  And the specific govt requirement is 6 hours total and US and Texas constitutions have to be covered.  No AP testing out of the Texas constitution requirement.

Arent there advisors that you can pay to help you figure all of this out?

[Jacksonian]

Arent there advisors that you can pay to help you figure all of this out?

All schools have advisors that do that.  Some are professional advisors paid for by student fees.  Others are faculty.  Depends usually on the size of the school.  That doesn't mean all advisors are high quality.  Some are. Some aren't.  Luck of the draw.

ETA: I'll bet there are college student members here who could relate stories both good and bad about their advisors.

[ybbodeus]

I do too.

I'll bet he's glad that Briles got the job first, though, given he doesn't have as far to climb NOW as Briles did when HE started....at least in terms of where you folks want to be as program.

Shoot, even USC, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, LSU and now West Virginia have had coaches leave them for other programs; it isn't always an indictment of the program.  Hopefully Baylor folks don't have the mindset that because Grant Teaff passed on the various offers that HE received over the years that ALL of our hires should behave accordingly.  Every change is an opportunity to build on the legacy that the previous coach left, good or bad.

[Astroholic]

All schools have advisors that do that.  Some are professional advisors paid for by student fees.  Others are faculty.  Depends usually on the size of the school.  That doesn't mean all advisors are high quality.  Some are. Some aren't.  Luck of the draw.

ETA: I'll bet there are college student members here who could relate stories both good and bad about their advisors.

I realize that.  Problem is those advisors work only for that school.  Seems like there would be an opportunity for someone to build a consultant company that helps families with these decision for all of the schools in the area.  I did a search and it appears that there are (few but some).  Might be worth my while in a few years to look again.

[Jacksonian]

I realize that.  Problem is those advisors work only for that school.  Seems like there would be an opportunity for someone to build a consultant company that helps families with these decision for all of the schools in the area.  I did a search and it appears that there are (few but some).  Might be worth my while in a few years to look again.

Be careful.  Many of those are really about getting into a particular school, admissions.  As opposed to doing what's necessary once you get there, advising.  I've never heard of anyone doing "pre-advising" on a consultant basis.  There are a number that will help you with applications/letters... though.

[Astroholic]

Be careful.  Many of those are really about getting into a particular school, admissions.  As opposed to doing what's necessary once you get there, advising.  I've never heard of anyone doing "pre-advising" on a consultant basis.  There are a number that will help you with applications/letters... though.

Found this site in my search
http://www.petersons.com/counseling/code/homepage.asp

I have a few years as my oldest is seven.

[Froback]

Be careful.  Many of those are really about getting into a particular school, admissions.  As opposed to doing what's necessary once you get there, advising.  I've never heard of anyone doing "pre-advising" on a consultant basis.  There are a number that will help you with applications/letters... though.

As you stated before with School Counselors, it can be a crap shoot, but this is one of the roles that High School Counselors do.  In some schools they even have a specific person who focuses on just that type of "counseling".  So if you are lucky and you have one that treats that as being an important part of their job, they can be invaluable, because they know both your child (and their history) and the current things going on, at least in state and local schools.

[Astroholic]

As you stated before with School Counselors, it can be a crap shoot, but this is one of the roles that High School Counselors do.  In some schools they even have a specific person who focuses on just that type of "counseling".  So if you are lucky and you have one that treats that as being an important part of their job, they can be invaluable, because they know both your child (and their history) and the current things going on, at least in state and local schools.

Our highschool counselors were horrible.  They focused on the kids that needed the least help with college admissions. 

[Jacksonian]

Found this site in my search
http://www.petersons.com/counseling/code/homepage.asp

I have a few years as my oldest is seven.

Right.  Admissions.  That's different than knowing state mandated courses, universities' core curricula, major requirements, AP credits taken...  On this I've never seen a private consultant.

[Astroholic]

Right.  Admissions.  That's different than knowing state mandated courses, universities' core curricula, major requirements, AP credits taken...  On this I've never seen a private consultant.

Hmmmm....as my pea brain starts tinkering.

[Jacksonian]

As you stated before with School Counselors, it can be a crap shoot, but this is one of the roles that High School Counselors do.  In some schools they even have a specific person who focuses on just that type of "counseling".  So if you are lucky and you have one that treats that as being an important part of their job, they can be invaluable, because they know both your child (and their history) and the current things going on, at least in state and local schools.

I'm sure there are good school counselors out there.  But I've never met nor heard of any student talk nicely about one.  And, from what I'm told, they do not focus on college curricula.

Oh and professional advisors would whince at being compared to school counselors.

[Jacksonian]

Hmmmm....as my pea brain starts tinkering.

Right now the best you can do is call each school your child is intered in, make an appointment to see an advisor in the major you child wants, and ask as many questions as you can esp curricula and grad requirements.  Get a feel for competence.  You should by how they answer and the completeness of the answers.

[Astroholic]

Right now the best you can do is call each school your child is intered in, make an appointment to see an advisor in the major you child wants, and ask as many questions as you can esp curricula and grad requirements.  Get a feel for competence.  You should by how they answer and the completeness of the answers.

I was thinking about opening up a consultant firm...but okay.  I am always thinking about ways to make the next buck.  On a serious not, I think you are giving very good advice here.

[Trey]

Right now the best you can do is call each school your child is intered in, make an appointment to see an advisor in the major you child wants, and ask as many questions as you can esp curricula and grad requirements.  Get a feel for competence.  You should by how they answer and the completeness of the answers.

When I told my high school counselor I was interviewing with Carnegie Mellon, she said "Which school is she from?"

Most school's websites will have a lot of that info.  From my (super limited) experience, it's probably a better resource than the dept counselors.

[Astroholic]

When I told my high school counselor I was interviewing with Carnegie Mellon, she said "Which school is she from?"

Most school's websites will have a lot of that info.  From my (super limited) experience, it's probably a better resource than the dept counselors.

Didnt have web sites when I started.

[Phil_in_CS]

Didnt have web sites when I started.

didn't have them intarwebs back then, neither

[Jacksonian]

Most school's websites will have a lot of that info. 

While that is generally true, it can be very difficult to find the info depending how good a job the school does with its website.  And often there's information that isn't published on the web that is useful, if not generally well known.  Also there are times when dots have to be connected.  Advisors/faculty do that.

From my (super limited) experience, it's probably a better resource than the dept counselors.

Depends on the quality of the advisor and the webmaster.  And, my first-hand experience is that it really is a crapshoot at this point.  Professional collegiate advising is a relatively new and burgeoning field.  So, you get morons a lot.

[Jacksonian]

didn't have them intarwebs back then, neither

I had neither the net nor a competent advisor.

I'm making damn sure my kids are prepared.

[Froback]

When I told my high school counselor I was interviewing with Carnegie Mellon, she said "Which school is she from?"

Most school's websites will have a lot of that info.  From my (super limited) experience, it's probably a better resource than the dept counselors.

Huh, either people in my family got very lucky or something because I had a great deal of help from my HS counselor (since my parents didn't help a ton, but did pay for what my scholarships didn't cover), as has my nieces and nephews (so far).  And I would argue that it depends on the competency of the person when comparing High School Counselors and Professional Advisors.  More often than not, the difference is just that one works for a college and the other a High School.  You can find examples on both sides were one is better than another.  I would say the the College level ones can help you more with specific college planning, but the High School ones can help you with getting Scholarships and suggesting schools to target for particular degree types.  But you should use both when ever possible.  

I would tend to start with High School level first, and then based on the help in narrowing down the field, then go and interview the College level types for more information beyond what the High School person can provide.  To not take advantage of both, would seem less than optimal.  The worst that is likely to happen is you have an idiot (or lazy) person on the High School level, but then the benefits if you get a good one can be significant.

[Jacksonian]

suggesting schools to target for particular degree types.  

Public library. Reference section.  Peterson's Guides to Universities I think is the exact title.  Peterson's Guides to _____ if Universities isn't correct.  The BEST resource for finding schools with particular degrees, contact info, general info about a school...  Better than any one person can possibly do.  The guides to graduate schools are even better.

[Astroholic]

Public library. Reference section.  Peterson's Guides to Universities I think is the exact title.  Peterson's Guides to _____ if Universities isn't correct.  The BEST resource for finding schools with particular degrees, contact info, general info about a school...  Better than any one person can possibly do.  The guides to graduate schools are even better.

That is the link I included above.

[Froback]

Public library. Reference section.  Peterson's Guides to Universities I think is the exact title.  Peterson's Guides to _____ if Universities isn't correct.  The BEST resource for finding schools with particular degrees, contact info, general info about a school...  Better than any one person can possibly do.  The guides to graduate schools are even better.

Not really arguing that, but if the HS counselor knows their stuff, they should know about this reference material too, and probably have the latest version.  They can (and should be) the place to get all the info you want about Colleges and scholarship programs and such.  They are supposed to be there to guide you through things.  And as with most guides, you can do it on your own, or you can have someone help you along.  Most people don't have enough time to do the proper research into these things.  Obviously you have.  But in a general sense, they should be able to do this for you, or at least help you along in the process.  There is no rule saying you HAVE to use them or that even they can do it better than you can.  The idea is that this is part of their job, thus they should have more background into these things than you might.

Anyone can do enough research so as to not need people to help them, but the idea that you have to do it all is incorrect.

[Jacksonian]

That is the link I included above.

Yeah, but I like having it in print.  And, at the library, it's free.  Or at least pre-paid through your taxes.

[ybbodeus]

The father of five young children thanks you all for the guidance and direction provided by this thread.  Who says ya' gotta pick six numbers correctly???

[Froback]

The father of five young children thanks you all for the guidance and direction provided by this thread.  Who says ya' gotta pick six numbers correctly???

It doesn't hurt.

[Phil_in_CS]

Not really arguing that, but if the HS counselor knows their stuff, ....

that's a hell of an 'if'

most counselors are expert at reclassifying drops outs and special ed kids to improve the school's rankings.

[HudsonHawk]

I had neither the net nor a competent advisor.

I'm making damn sure my kids are prepared.

My high school counselor was worthless.  I almost didn't graduate HS, despite being in the top 10%, honor society, all that crap, due to her incompetence in state mandated "core" curricula.  She was pointless when it came to advising for college.  Once I got to college, however, I had a great advisor who made sure I had what I needed.  Like you say...it's a crap shoot.