Author Topic: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!  (Read 5325 times)

pravata

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Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« on: November 12, 2007, 04:04:37 pm »
Is Bruntlett better than Infante?  Link Maybe. Interesting comparison.  The Tigers were looking for a backup outfielder and they went with Jones.  The Cubs didn't ask for as much as did the Phillies.  Maybe they wouldn't have traded Jones within the Division.  Perhaps comparing this trade to the Bourn/Lidge trade suggest that the Astros were looking for younger, better defensively, better attitude, cheaper, and faster.  A longer term solution too.

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 04:57:38 pm »
Is Bruntlett better than Infante?  Link Maybe. Interesting comparison.  The Tigers were looking for a backup outfielder and they went with Jones.  The Cubs didn't ask for as much as did the Phillies.  Maybe they wouldn't have traded Jones within the Division.  Perhaps comparing this trade to the Bourn/Lidge trade suggest that the Astros were looking for younger, better defensively, better attitude, cheaper, and faster.  A longer term solution too.

Not to mention they were just looking for better.

pravata

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 05:11:57 pm »
Not to mention they were just looking for better.

Of course.  But Bourn hasn't been in the majors for a full season.  Jones is a 9 year veteran.  He hit over 20 homeruns 4 of the past 5 seasons.  The Astros have no idea if Bourn will be better.  It's interesting, to me at least, since the Astros have traded for and may be trading some away, what outfielders are going for in this market. 

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 05:16:09 pm »
Of course.  But Bourn hasn't been in the majors for a full season.  Jones is a 9 year veteran.  He hit over 20 homeruns 4 of the past 5 seasons.  The Astros have no idea if Bourn will be better.  It's interesting, to me at least, since the Astros have traded for and may be trading some away, what outfielders are going for in this market. 


the contract is a big factor, as is the fact bourn is a defensive whiz in center fielder.  Center fielders are going to receive more value than corner outfielders because it's the most important defensive position in the outfield.   Plus the cubs were on the verge of giving away jones by the july trade deadline, so they clearly just wanted out of his deal.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 05:27:09 pm »
And since when is it ok to make deals within your division especially in helping the Cubs?

Duman

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 09:41:37 pm »
Of course.  But Bourn hasn't been in the majors for a full season.  Jones is a 9 year veteran.  He hit over 20 homeruns 4 of the past 5 seasons.  The Astros have no idea if Bourn will be better.  It's interesting, to me at least, since the Astros have traded for and may be trading some away, what outfielders are going for in this market. 


Trading for a young talent when your farm system is very thin makes a bunch more sense.  He will be under club control for several years. 
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 10:02:26 pm »
Trading for a young talent when your farm system is very thin makes a bunch more sense.  He will be under club control for several years. 
Exactly. Jacque Jones also has always been sub-par at getting on base, and while he has played center, I don't think he's regarded as anything more than adequate there. It's pretty clear the Astros were looking for a leadoff hitter who could really make a difference in the outfield.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 11:06:45 pm »
I don't think a Pence/Scott OF is much, if any, of a drop-off from a Pence/Jones OF.  In my humble opinion.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2007, 08:51:58 am »
I don't think a Pence/Scott OF is much, if any, of a drop-off from a Pence/Jones OF.  In my humble opinion.

Scott is not a bad OFer. i do not know why folks think he is.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2007, 08:54:52 am »
Scott is not a bad OFer. i do not know why folks think he is.
At this point, I think I would rather have Scott than Jones.

pravata

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 09:21:09 am »
At this point, I think I would rather have Scott than Jones.

But the Tigers didn't.  Scott is likely to be traded.   He'll either be a throw in on a deal or the Astros will receive very little for him.

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 09:56:27 am »
Who will be the left-handed bat off the bench if they get rid of Scott and Lamb?

But the Tigers didn't.  Scott is likely to be traded.   He'll either be a throw in on a deal or the Astros will receive very little for him.
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pravata

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 10:47:31 am »
Who will be the left-handed bat off the bench if they get rid of Scott and Lamb?


Don't know.

Noe

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 11:05:51 am »
But the Tigers didn't.  Scott is likely to be traded.   He'll either be a throw in on a deal or the Astros will receive very little for him.

Tigers wanted Scott last year and offered back Marcus Thames.  Houston felt Thames = Jason Lane, only a bit faster.  Had the Astros not made concessions to Lane after the heart-to-heart after the 2006 season, the deal may of gone through with Thames being a Houston Astro today.

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 11:09:39 am »
Scott's not a great pinch hitter
but he's better than nothing. Lamb will probably sign elsewhere.  Palmeiro probably won't make the team...I'd say the best option is to keep Scott unless they can pick up a Darryl Ward or his ilk on the cheap.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2007, 11:16:47 am »
Scott's not a great pinch hitter
but he's better than nothing. Lamb will probably sign elsewhere.  Palmeiro probably won't make the team...I'd say the best option is to keep Scott unless they can pick up a Darryl Ward or his ilk on the cheap.

i'd go for Ward in a heartbeat.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2007, 11:18:58 am »
Cubs November 3: Exercised the 2008 contract option on first baseman Daryle Ward; declined the 2008 contract options on outfielder Cliff Floyd and pitcher Steve Trachsel; added pitcher Adam Harben to the 40-man roster.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2007, 11:19:47 am »
i'd go for Ward in a heartbeat.

Fits right in with the speed and defense theme, too.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2007, 11:29:52 am »
Fits right in with the speed and defense theme, too.

How about Klesko? 

By the way...Cubs also included $2M along with Jones in the Infante deal.  That covers a little over a third of his salary for the season.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/647152,CST-SPT-cub13.article

Duman

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2007, 12:13:25 pm »
How about Klesko? 



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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2007, 01:42:49 pm »
According to Gammons' blog: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter

"The White Sox tried to interest Houston in a Ryan Sweeney-Chad Qualls deal before the 'Stros got Michael Bourn."

I don't know anything about Ryan Sweeney, but for the folks that do it may provide further context for the Bourn deal. Anyone?
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2007, 02:21:45 pm »
According to Gammons' blog: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter

"The White Sox tried to interest Houston in a Ryan Sweeney-Chad Qualls deal before the 'Stros got Michael Bourn."

I don't know anything about Ryan Sweeney, but for the folks that do it may provide further context for the Bourn deal. Anyone?

Astros weren't in the market for a corner outfield prospect.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2007, 02:35:15 pm »
Astros weren't in the market for a corner outfield prospect.

Ah. I glanced at his stats and noticed he played CF a few times for the White Sox over the last two years, but I did not realize he was a corner prospect. Like I said, I know nothing about this guy.
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2007, 02:46:13 pm »
Ah. I glanced at his stats and noticed he played CF a few times for the White Sox over the last two years, but I did not realize he was a corner prospect. Like I said, I know nothing about this guy.

He's a CF the same way Pence is.
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jaklewein

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2007, 02:48:30 pm »
Ah. I glanced at his stats and noticed he played CF a few times for the White Sox over the last two years, but I did not realize he was a corner prospect. Like I said, I know nothing about this guy.

I remember reading in the paper that Wade had been meeting with the Whitesox at he GM meetings and was wondering what players he might have been interested in. Thanks.

Noe

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2007, 02:54:02 pm »
I remember reading in the paper that Wade had been meeting with the Whitesox at he GM meetings and was wondering what players he might have been interested in. Thanks.

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2007, 03:22:19 pm »
The idiots of the mid-day were on a roll on Friday talking about the Lidge deal.  Two of the better ones that I remember:

Lopez:  Bourn isn't a great centerfielder.  He takes lots of bad angles.  Speed lets him get away with it.

The other idiot: The phillies basically got another starting pitcher in this deal since they can move Brett Myers back to the rotation.  This somehow reflects poorly on the astros and means they got screwed in the deal.

These two have been going on and on about Lidge's struggles for a year and when the Astros finally trade him, they say the return wasn't enough.  Did they expect Aaron Rowand and Chase Utley in return for a struggling closer?  How do these two have a radio show?  Why was I listening, you might ask?  I'm a masochist, of course.

Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

pravata

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2007, 03:25:51 pm »
The idiots of the mid-day were on a roll on Friday talking about the Lidge deal.  Two of the better ones that I remember:

Lopez:  Bourn isn't a great centerfielder.  He takes lots of bad angles.  Speed lets him get away with it.

The other idiot: The phillies basically got another starting pitcher in this deal since they can move Brett Myers back to the rotation.  This somehow reflects poorly on the astros and means they got screwed in the deal.

These two have been going on and on about Lidge's struggles for a year and when the Astros finally trade him, they say the return wasn't enough.  Did they expect Aaron Rowand and Chase Utley in return for a struggling closer?  How do these two have a radio show?  Why was I listening, you might ask?  I'm a masochist, of course.



The Phillies have 3 catchers on their roster, 2 rookies and a sophmore.  Good luck flagging down that slider boys.

Noe

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2007, 04:09:10 pm »
Lopez:  Bourn isn't a great centerfielder.  He takes lots of bad angles.  Speed lets him get away with it.

Like Andruw Jones (the CF that is the eptiome of what Lopez is saying)?  Seems if we got Andruw Jones on defense, that's not a bad deal at all!!!  BTW - any scout will tell you that Lopez is full of shit.

Quote
The other idiot: The phillies basically got another starting pitcher in this deal since they can move Brett Myers back to the rotation.  This somehow reflects poorly on the astros and means they got screwed in the deal.


Bill Colin of the Philly papers basically called out the Phillies on that one.  If Myers is supposed to be a starter, then move him there regardless if you get Lidge or not.   Getting Lidge is not directly tied to Myers and in fact, Colin says he thinks that Lidge will wind up being the 8th inning guy for Philly and Myers will remain the closer when all is said and done.  Gillick is shopping for a starter because of it, just to be sure.  The Myers back into the rotation is iffy in the minds of some because Myers doesn't want to do it and Lidge has some baggage that some believe may mean his days of closing are over.

pravata already mentioned it, but Lidge is about getting hitters to swing and miss at his nasty slider... and also having the confidence to throw it on any count, any time because he trust he can get the swing and a miss and because the catcher knows how to catch the damn thing.  See: Lidge, Brad 2004/2005.  What is now happening is Lidge 2006/2007 has had to learn to trust his 97 mph fastball again and throw it without fear (and maybe put movement on that pitch by cutting it a little).  Has he done that effectively?  No, he's struggled doing that.  What Philly or anyone else is counting on is Lidge will make that adjustment.  The nasty slider will not be as effective for Lidge as his out pitch without the fastball coming around in location and movement.  Also throwing another pitch for a strike as well.  All that is a work in progress because Lidge will blow games with only a straight fastball to count on.  Forget that shit about "Pujols/2005 playoffs", it's about making adjustments to the adjustments the league made on you.

Brad Lidge is at that cross point in his career.  I think he can do it, but I admit he's going to have to prove it.  There is nothing to lose for Philly since they have Myers, but that is the point... don't count on Lidge and Myers being permanent fixtures at closer and starter respectfully.  To say that *now* is to ignore what is reality for both teams.  Bourn has to prove himself and so does Lidge before anyone can make any sort of pronouncements of who improved themselves in this deal.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 04:19:15 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2007, 10:59:52 am »
Here's the article Noe referenced. This guy reads like a Chronicle columnist.

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnists/bill_conlin/20071109_Bill_Conlin___UPON_CLOSER_REVIEW.html
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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2007, 12:20:01 pm »
ever wonder what you'd do with a HOF vote?  here's what conlin did with his when the old man came up for induction.  some of you are probably already well aware of this.

"Ryan holds numerous big league records: 5,714 strikeouts, seven no-hitters, 12 one-hitters, 213 double-figure strikeout games and six 300-plus strikeout seasons.
Who could not vote for Ryan, who won 324 games? Bill Conlin, a columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News, for one.
Ryan also has 292 losses, a record 2,795 walks, only two 20-win seasons and never won a Cy Young Award, reasons enough for Conlin to omit Ryan from his ballot. Conlin, in the current issue of "Baseball Weekly," acknowledges that Ryan does deserve to be in the Hall, but not on the first ballot. Still, don't expect enough baseball writers to exclude Ryan or Brett in their first years and keep either out of the Hall."
http://www.cjonline.com/royals/brett/010599.shtml


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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2007, 02:21:35 pm »
ever wonder what you'd do with a HOF vote?  here's what conlin did with his when the old man came up for induction.  some of you are probably already well aware of this.

"Ryan holds numerous big league records: 5,714 strikeouts, seven no-hitters, 12 one-hitters, 213 double-figure strikeout games and six 300-plus strikeout seasons.
Who could not vote for Ryan, who won 324 games? Bill Conlin, a columnist for the Philadelphia Daily News, for one.
Ryan also has 292 losses, a record 2,795 walks, only two 20-win seasons and never won a Cy Young Award, reasons enough for Conlin to omit Ryan from his ballot. Conlin, in the current issue of "Baseball Weekly," acknowledges that Ryan does deserve to be in the Hall, but not on the first ballot. Still, don't expect enough baseball writers to exclude Ryan or Brett in their first years and keep either out of the Hall."
http://www.cjonline.com/royals/brett/010599.shtml

That was just Conlin trying to make a name for himself by being a contrarian jackass.

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Re: Hey the Astros could've had Jacque Jones?!
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2007, 10:27:25 am »
Conlin, in the current issue of "Baseball Weekly," acknowledges that Ryan does deserve to be in the Hall, but not on the first ballot. Still, don't expect enough baseball writers to exclude Ryan or Brett in their first years and keep either out of the Hall."
http://www.cjonline.com/royals/brett/010599.shtml


This is something I never understood. If a guy deserves to be in the Hall then he deserves to be there. I have heard several writers say that someone deserved to be there but not on the first ballot. Does going in on the first ballot get you extra bar priviledges? Doe sit mean you don't have to wait in line to get into Heaven?

Any idiot writer that says that, in my opinion, should have his vote taken from him. Is there something about first ballot prestige that makes certain players not worthy?
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