Ringolsby - Astros looking at Andruw?

[MusicMan]

Houston wants to move Hunter Pence to a corner outfield spot, which opens up center field and is why Astros brass has been chatting with agents for Rowand and Andruw Jones.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7400932?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

[Andyzipp]

No way in hell.  The agents for Mr. Jones are pudenda non grata at Crawford and Texas

[MusicMan]

No way in hell.  The agents for Mr. Jones are pudenda non grata at Crawford and Texas

And currently occupied pretending that thy didn't leak ARod's opt-out to SI.

[Fredia]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7400932?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

ahhh i am beginning to feel the flame of the hot stove as it heats up. bring on the rumors.

[TheWizard]

More of a chance that A-Rod is going to be on the next season of Dancing with the Stars.

[Noe]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7400932?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

I think he meant to type "Rowand and Torii Hunter" and mistakenly typed "Andruw Jones".

[Andyzipp]

I think he meant to type "Rowand and Torii Hunter" and mistakenly typed "Andruw Jones".

I thought of that.  And I've been drinking a double shot of El Torado brand tequila every 5 minutes to duplicate the environment where one makes that mistake.  The closest I've gotten so far is Tori Wells.

[Noe]

I thought of that.  And I've been drinking a double shot of El Torado brand tequila every 5 minutes to duplicate the environment where one makes that mistake.  The closest I've gotten so far is Tori Wells.

Your experimentation is flawed because you're not replicating the environment of the perpetrator exactly.  You need to put on a ten gallon cowboy hat that looks to be too small for your over sized melon.  Squeeze that bad boy down as low as you can go and thus cut off all blood circulation to the brain.

Now... do the tequila shots as you type.

[Limey]

I thought of that.  And I've been drinking a double shot of El Torado brand tequila every 5 minutes to duplicate the environment where one makes that mistake.  The closest I've gotten so far is Tori Wells.

Try doing a "strike out".

[Andyzipp]

Your experimentation is flawed because you're not replicating the environment of the perpetrator exactly.  You need to put on a ten gallon cowboy hat that looks to be too small for your over sized melon.  Squeeze that bad boy down as low as you can go and thus cut off all blood circulation to the brain.

Now... do the tequila shots as you type.

I have a hard hat with an adjustable strap.  I'm now able to confirm that Ed Helms has been in contact with Peter North, Tori Welles and Victoria Paris.  Or something.

Floor.

[austro]

I have a hard hat with an adjustable strap.  I'm now able to confirm that Ed Helms has been in contact with Peter North, Tori Welles and Victoria Paris.  Or something.

Floor.

"One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor."

[MusicMan]

I have a hard hat with an adjustable strap.  I'm now able to confirm that Ed Helms has been in contact with Peter North, Tori Welles and Victoria Paris.  Or something.

Floor.

When you're skimming the TZ, seeing Andy post something with "hard", "adjustable strap", and "Peter North"... well, it causes you to go back and read more carefully.

[JackAstro]

When you're skimming the TZ, seeing Andy post something with "hard", "adjustable strap", and "Peter North"... well, it causes you to go back and read more carefully.

I believe the FBI utilizes a search pattern with those exact parameters - welcome to a very special watch list, everyone.

[Andyzipp]

I believe the FBI utilizes a search pattern with those exact parameters - welcome to a very special watch list, everyone.

"Hard", "adjustable strap" and "Peter North" would qualify 67% of the internet for that watch list.

[pravata]

Ringolsby gets his Astros information from Richard Justice.  Which is why he never corrected his article about how Randy Smith is now the Astros' GM.  He has a learning disability.  They both do.

[DVauthrin]

If andruw had a normal agent, and was coming off this yr, he would be an option for an incentive based deal and a potential astros target.  But he has satan for an agent, so cross him off the list.

If they could get one of hunter/rowand and castillo or resign loretta that would be a solid start with the lineup being:

1.  castillo/loretta-2B
2.  pence-RF
3.  Berkman-1B
4.  Lee-LF
5.  Hunter/Rowand-CF
6.  Wigginton-3B
7.  Everett-SS
8.  Towles/Ausmus-C

Now, that lineup is very right handed dominant, but it should still produce a lot of runs.    Starting Pitching is going to be much tougher to fix.   

[austro]

I hope I never see the day that Mark Loretta is the Astros' lead-off man. He is one slow human, and this lineup would effectively negate Pence's speed.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I hope I never see the day that Mark Loretta is the Astros' lead-off man. He is one slow human, and this lineup would effectively negate Pence's speed.

I agree.  I love Loretta for what he brings to the lineup and the clubhouse, but at this point in his career he's a #6 hitter if I've ever seen one.

Of course, Castillo would be fantastic leading off.   But if we're looking at Loretta at 2B on Opening Day with the roster that's been suggested, I think you'd have to have Pence leading off, Wigginton in the 2 hole, and Loretta at 6.  Everything else is kosher.

[DVauthrin]

I hope I never see the day that Mark Loretta is the Astros' lead-off man. He is one slow human, and this lineup would effectively negate Pence's speed.

I don't think the team with loretta on it has a true leadoff option.   Do you really want pence batting leadoff?   He doesn't take enough pitches and doesn't have enough experience for that role.   I guess you could bat pence 5th, rowand leadoff if you signed him instead of torii hunter.    If you go with torii, you have to either sign castillo, or bat one of pence or loretta leadoff.   I'd rather it be loretta because leadoff is a lot of pressure for an inexperienced player, and he takes more pitches, even with the lack of speed.

But if we're looking at Loretta at 2B on Opening Day with the roster that's been suggested, I think you'd have to have Pence leading off, Wigginton in the 2 hole, and Loretta at 6.  Everything else is kosher.

Loretta is a way better number 2 hitter than ty wigginton.   He handles the bat way better.   In an ideal setup, i'd have loretta batting 2nd if he was retained. 

Wigginton is your prototypical  bottom of the lineup slugger.   

[Noe]

If the Astros sign Castillo (a switch hitter) and use Pence at the #2, that will be a very powerful 1 through 4, but it all starts to fall apart at #5.  I would think that if Rowand is available at the right price they could go with him at #5 and Wiggington at #6.  That leaves Towles for #7 and Everett at #8.

Rowand and Castillo improve the up the middle defense dramatically, and add speed to the lineup.  Pence and Castillo at the top could wreck havoc hitting in front of Berkman, who needs to have a consistent year in 2008. 

I like where they're heading with these projections.

[DVauthrin]

If the Astros sign Castillo (a switch hitter) and use Pence at the #2, that will be a very powerful 1 through 4, but it all starts to fall apart at #5.  I would think that if Rowand is available at the right price they could go with him at #5 and Wiggington at #6.  That leaves Towles for #7 and Everett at #8.

Rowand and Castillo improve the up the middle defense dramatically, and add speed to the lineup.  Pence and Castillo at the top could wreck havoc hitting in front of Berkman, who needs to have a consistent year in 2008. 

I like where they're heading with these projections.

well I think that a castillo, pence, lance, lee, hunter/rowand, wigginton 1-6 is very potent offensively and can carry everett and the catchers spot in the order to ensure better D from SS/C.


Also, Hunter/rowand plus castillo and AE  make the astros one of the best up the middle defenses in all of baseball.   now if you strike out on hunter/rowand, you have major issues at either the 5 hole or 6 spot in the lineup.

[Noe]

well I think that a castillo, pence, lance, lee, hunter/rowand, wigginton 1-6 is very potent offensively and can carry everett and the catchers spot in the order to ensure better D from SS/C.


Also, Hunter/rowand plus castillo and AE  make the astros one of the best up the middle defenses in all of baseball.   now if you strike out on hunter/rowand, you have major issues at either the 5 hole or 6 spot in the lineup.

Yup.  Assume you get Castillo but neither Rowand nor Hunter.  You have a big issue at the #5 and must rely on Ty Wiggington to be the man.  But your bottom of the order will be Josh Anderson, JR Towles and Adam Everett.

I'm sure they're working all angles possible, but suffice it to say the gold standard for making themselves better almost over night (in terms of defense and offense) is Castillo and Rowand (or Hunter).  But they'd still be facing a hole at the #2 starter position, unless they start the season without a true #2 and then make that an acquire for the trading deadline.  Having a great defense would help offset the lack of a true #2 and #3.

Also, what will the bullpen look like?  If you are going to be lacking at the starter position, then you better have a rock solid bullpen.  I would think Wade and Smith know they need to either concentrate on the #2 starter or the bullpen as a high priority as well.

[DVauthrin]

  But they'd still be facing a hole at the #2 starter position, unless they start the season without a true #2 and then make that an acquire for the trading deadline.  Having a great defense would help offset the lack of a true #2 and #3.

Also, what will the bullpen look like?  If you are going to be lacking at the starter position, then you better have a rock solid bullpen.  I would think Wade and Smith know they need to either concentrate on the #2 starter or the bullpen as a high priority as well.

I agree on both counts.  I think though, based on the starting pitching market, it might be better to work on the pen, and/or go for a starter via trade, using scott as bait provided you sign a free agent CF.  perhaps scott and something for westbrook in cleveland(with carmona's emergence, they have an abundance of pitching considering sowers and lee didn't even factor in their postseason success because of their struggles this season)

[Noe]

I agree on both counts.  I think though, based on the starting pitching market, it might be better to work on the pen, and/or go for a starter via trade, using scott as bait provided you sign a free agent CF.  perhaps scott and something for westbrook in cleveland(with carmona's emergence, they have an abundance of pitching considering sowers and lee didn't even factor in their postseason success because of their struggles this season)

I totally agree... work on that bullpen and see where you get with the young arms for the first two months and then plan accordingly for the trading deadline for a solid arm for the rest of the season and a possible playoff run.

[Arky Vaughan]

Yup.  Assume you get Castillo but neither Rowand nor Hunter.  You have a big issue at the #5 and must rely on Ty Wiggington to be the man.  But your bottom of the order will be Josh Anderson, JR Towles and Adam Everett.

I'm sure they're working all angles possible, but suffice it to say the gold standard for making themselves better almost over night (in terms of defense and offense) is Castillo and Rowand (or Hunter).  But they'd still be facing a hole at the #2 starter position, unless they start the season without a true #2 and then make that an acquire for the trading deadline.  Having a great defense would help offset the lack of a true #2 and #3.

Also, what will the bullpen look like?  If you are going to be lacking at the starter position, then you better have a rock solid bullpen.  I would think Wade and Smith know they need to either concentrate on the #2 starter or the bullpen as a high priority as well.

What I like about this analysis is that it acknowledges that even if a No. 2 starter is the team's greatest need, if there isn't a free agent out there who can fill this role at the right price relative to his quality, then you move on and try to improve the team at center field or second base, where there are some good free-agent candidates out there.

The columnist/blogger/talk-radio crowd pisses and moans about why didn't they fill this or that obvious need without ever looking what was available on the market and whether it was worth it. Sometimes you're better off fixing a less pressing need with a better fit than trying to fix your most pressing need in desperation with whatever is out there on the market.

[MusicMan]

Ringolsby gets his Astros information from Richard Justice.  Which is why he never corrected his article about how Randy Smith is now the Astros' GM.  He has a learning disability.  They both do.

No, learning disabilities are specific in their manifestation.  Justice and Ringolsby just aren't very intelligent.

[DVauthrin]

Another potential CF option that isn't as good as hunter/rowand on either offense or defense is coco crisp, but he would be much cheaper financially at the expense of a mid level prospect(obviously would depend on which prospect boston would want).   Crisp plus castillo gives you two switch hitters in front of lance/lee, and a ton of speed at the top of the order, but my question is how good is he defensively?

If you signed castillo your lineup would be:

castillo
crisp
berkman
lee
pence
wiggy
everett
towles/officer brad

And to clarify I prefer the lineups with hunter/rowand than I do this one, mainly do to where pence is batting.   Just throwing out another possibility.

[Burzmali]

Wouldn't Andruw would be a downgrade defensively and offensively, at least based on 2007?

Also think Hunter and Rowand wouldn't be that much of an upgrade on Scott's bat, and the defense over Pence isn't enough to justify the money.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

As far as 2B options, I'd still like to see them look at Tadahito Iguchi.  Solid player, from everything I've seen of him. 

[DVauthrin]

Wouldn't Andruw would be a downgrade defensively and offensively, at least based on 2007?

Also think Hunter and Rowand wouldn't be that much of an upgrade on Scott's bat, and the defense over Pence isn't enough to justify the money.

I disagree.   You have the immovable object in LF, and scott in RF is not very good either.  Your CF on this team has to be able to not only cover the expansive CF in MMP, but help your corner outfielders with balls in the gap(protecting their shortcomings).   Pence is not that kind of defender.  Hunter/Rowand are, and Jones has been in the past.   By replacing scott with hunter/rowand, you lose nothing offensively and possibly gain consistency, but you upgrade the range factor in CF/RF greatly.   Not to mention you can then use scott as trade bait for the pitching you need as this year's pitching class sucks in the free agent pool.   

Right now you have nothing you can afford to move for the pitching you need as scott is not expendable currently.         Plus, if you roll with this staff as is, you can kiss a winning season goodbye with a defensive outfield of lee/pence/scott.  This team needs to take a page out of the cardinals book the last few years, as they took average pitching and made it look above average with great defense.    Sometimes spending the money is better than keeping the cheaper alternative depending on your roster makeup.  This is one of those times.

[Gizzmonic]

The columnist/blogger/talk-radio crowd pisses and moans about why didn't they fill this or that obvious need without ever looking what was available on the market and whether it was worth it. Sometimes you're better off fixing a less pressing need with a better fit than trying to fix your most pressing need in desperation with whatever is out there on the market.

Yep, exactly.  You can't conjure up free agents ex nihilo, but the talk radio callers are always pissed off because the GM didn't sign a decent number 2, or couldn't find the base-stealing switch hitting catcher that would fill out the leadoff spot.

[Bench]

Wouldn't Andruw would be a downgrade defensively and offensively, at least based on 2007?

Downgrade? Defensively? Andruw just won his 10th gold glove, and that is the immutable and infallible mark of defensive greatness.

(Rowand won one also).

[Noe]

This team needs to take a page out of the cardinals book the last few years, as they took average pitching and made it look above average with great defense.

EGGSZACTLY!  Well done.

[Noe]

Another potential CF option that isn't as good as hunter/rowand on either offense or defense is coco crisp, but he would be much cheaper financially at the expense of a mid level prospect(obviously would depend on which prospect boston would want).   Crisp plus castillo gives you two switch hitters in front of lance/lee, and a ton of speed at the top of the order, but my question is how good is he defensively?

If you signed castillo your lineup would be:

castillo
crisp
berkman
lee
pence
wiggy
everett
towles/officer brad

And to clarify I prefer the lineups with hunter/rowand than I do this one, mainly do to where pence is batting.   Just throwing out another possibility.

I read an assumption by the writer at mlbrumors.com (a decent enough blog, most of the times points to good source information for his/her assumptions):  Cameron to the Astros because they can afford more than any other team to wait out his 25 game suspension.  I like Mike Cameron, but his admission to playing drunk and taking greenies is not going to fly well with the owner.  But then again, they did bring back Ken Caminiti too, so if someone wants to take a flyer on Cameron and they can indeed wait a month and a half to have him start, then it kind of makes sense.

Also the assumption was that Castillo would go back to the Mets because no one else was interested in him, so my assumption was that this person wrote this well before Houston made it known they're interested in Castillo.

What I like is that they've made their plans known to address the leadoff position as well as fix two key defensive positions: CF and 2nd base.  Those are huge fixes to this team and it does indeed help the pitching staff to have a very strong up the middle defense on your team.

[Jacksonian]

I read an assumption by the writer at mlbrumors.com (a decent enough blog, most of the times points to good source information for his/her assumptions):  Cameron to the Astros because they can afford more than any other team to wait out his 25 game suspension.  I like Mike Cameron, but his admission to playing drunk and taking greenies is not going to fly well with the owner.  But then again, they did bring back Ken Caminiti too, so if someone wants to take a flyer on Cameron and they can indeed wait a month and a half to have him start, then it kind of makes sense.

Also the assumption was that Castillo would go back to the Mets because no one else was interested in him, so my assumption was that this person wrote this well before Houston made it known they're interested in Castillo.

What I like is that they've made their plans known to address the leadoff position as well as fix two key defensive positions: CF and 2nd base.  Those are huge fixes to this team and it does indeed help the pitching staff to have a very strong up the middle defense on your team.

Anderson can handle CF defensively so that's not the issue.  The Astros want a CF who can handle the field and has a mlb track record of hitting.  There's still much doubt whether Anderson can hit enough to justify a spot in the lineup.

Having a better defender than Burke with an good offensive track record would be nice.

[DVauthrin]

I read an assumption by the writer at mlbrumors.com (a decent enough blog, most of the times points to good source information for his/her assumptions):  Cameron to the Astros because they can afford more than any other team to wait out his 25 game suspension.  I like Mike Cameron, but his admission to playing drunk and taking greenies is not going to fly well with the owner.  But then again, they did bring back Ken Caminiti too, so if someone wants to take a flyer on Cameron and they can indeed wait a month and a half to have him start, then it kind of makes sense.

Also the assumption was that Castillo would go back to the Mets because no one else was interested in him, so my assumption was that this person wrote this well before Houston made it known they're interested in Castillo.

What I like is that they've made their plans known to address the leadoff position as well as fix two key defensive positions: CF and 2nd base.  Those are huge fixes to this team and it does indeed help the pitching staff to have a very strong up the middle defense on your team.

I too check mlbtraderumors.com frequently for information on potential moves.   Honestly, I could see either castillo or iguchi being a fit at 2b, hunter, rowand, jones(if satan was reasonable, fat chance), crisp as a fit in CF as well.   I don't see cameron coming here with drayton's stance on morality.

If I was handicapping most likely to least likely in an astros uni in 08:

Castillo
Iguchi/Loretta


Hunter(he lives in the dallas area so everyone has him going to the rangers, but don't forget about the other texas team)
Rowand
Crisp
Cameron
Jones(if satan was reasonable he would be 3rd on the list)

[DVauthrin]

Anderson can handle CF defensively so that's not the issue.  The Astros want a CF who can handle the field and has a mlb track record of hitting.  There's still much doubt whether Anderson can hit enough to justify a spot in the lineup.

Having a better defender than Burke with an good offensive track record would be nice.

well hunter, jones, cameron, rowand, crisp(the weakest hitter in the group) are all fairly complete CF options and add different dimensions to the club.   But in a way I could see crisp thriving at MMP with his speed and the gap possibilities.

[Jacksonian]

well hunter, jones, cameron, rowand, crisp(the weakest hitter in the group) are all fairly complete CF options and add different dimensions to the club.   But in a way I could see crisp thriving at MMP with his speed and the gap possibilities.

I was only referring to Noe's note about defense up the middle.  Everett, Castillo, and Anderson would be a damn good defense.  But, the Astros want more out of their CF than just defense.  And, I wouldn't deal for Crisp.  I just don't think he'd be worth the salary plus whatever player(s) it'd take to get him.

[Noe]

I was only referring to Noe's note about defense up the middle.  Everett, Castillo, and Anderson would be a damn good defense.  But, the Astros want more out of their CF than just defense.  And, I wouldn't deal for Crisp.  I just don't think he'd be worth the salary plus whatever player(s) it'd take to get him.

I guess if you default to Anderson (and yes, agree it is not a bad default defensively speaking), you then move Hunter Pence to the #5 position and hope for the best out him in that very important rbi position.  You'd move Castillo to #2 (where he hit while with the Marlins if I remember correctly, behind Juan Pierre) and put Anderson at leadoff and hope that he continues with what he did this September.

It's not a bad deal and you spend on only Castillo to make it happen.  But if you had your druthers, I suspect that a Castillo/Rowand spend would get you a much better lineup of Castillo leadoff, Pence at #2 (hitting in front of Berkman and behind Castillo would give him plenty-o-fastballs) and Rowand hitting in the #5 spot.  The fact that Rowand is just a tad faster than Wiggington makes for a good improvement at that position in case Lee and Berkman are cleaning the basepaths.  I personally like this configuration more, but if we're just talking defense, I agree they could not go wrong with Anderson in the mix (and bat him leadoff and hope for the best).

BTW - if they do not get Castillo or Rowand, then you move Anderson in any way, bat Burke #2 and move Pence to the #5 spot.

[MusicMan]

BTW - if they do not get Castillo or Rowand, then you move Anderson in any way, bat Burke #2 and move Pence to the #5 spot.

And have a team that is not appreciably better than 2007.

[Bench]

I too check mlbtraderumors.com frequently for information on potential moves. 

Speaking of that site, which is from the throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks school of "rumor reporting", now they are saying the Astros are pursuing Lieber, Linebrink and *gasp* even Tom Glavine.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/astros-interest.html

[MusicMan]

Speaking of that site, which is from the throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks school of "rumor reporting",

At least they source.

[DVauthrin]

Speaking of that site, which is from the throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks school of "rumor reporting", now they are saying the Astros are pursuing Lieber, Linebrink and *gasp* even Tom Glavine.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/astros-interest.html

It would be weird to see glavine in an astros uni.   As far as that site, they regurgitate links from team blogs/sites and newspapers to do their speculating.   I don't put stock in their predictions, I just use it for the articles/info.

[Noe]

Speaking of that site, which is from the throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks school of "rumor reporting", now they are saying the Astros are pursuing Lieber, Linebrink and *gasp* even Tom Glavine.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/astros-interest.html

I think the Linebrink pursuit is real, everything else I have not heard yet.

(Ooops, just read Molony's article... they are interested in Lieber.  Like I said, Linebrink is a very real possibility).

[Noe]

Why is Buster Olney reporting yet again that the Mets are targeting Roy Oswalt as an acquire?

[rifraft]

Why is Buster Olney reporting yet again that the Mets are targeting Roy Oswalt as an acquire?

Yeah, if the Mets will do David Wright, Jose Reyes, and Aaron Heilman.

[utastro]

Yeah, if the Mets will do David Wright, Jose Reyes, and Aaron Heilman.

Don't forget Beltran or Wags.

[MusicMan]

Why is Buster Olney reporting yet again that the Mets are targeting Roy Oswalt as an acquire?

Warning... unfounded, irresponsible speculation ahead:

What if they think they have the inside track on ARod and are dangling a Reyes/Pelfrey/Gomez/Heilman combo platter?

Don't you at least have to consider it?

[Bench]

Why is Buster Olney reporting yet again that the Mets are targeting Roy Oswalt as an acquire?

From Olney's blog today: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

"The most interesting squelched speculation involves the Astros: Club executives say they will not trade Roy Oswalt."

What a scoop!

[Limey]

From Olney's blog today: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

"The most interesting squelched speculation involves the Astros: Club executives say they will not trade Roy Oswalt."

What a scoop!

Maybe he's talking to the fact that the rest of the current speculation is less interesting than obviously bogus brain-fucking about Roy-O.  Or maybe Olney has ADD, and a stupid comment about Roy was the last thing said to him before he started typing.

[Noe]

From Olney's blog today: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

"The most interesting squelched speculation involves the Astros: Club executives say they will not trade Roy Oswalt."

What a scoop!

Why would Olney think it was "interesting"?  Just because the Mets have said in the past that they covet Roy Oswalt (because of some build-a-bear thingy I suppose... but I digress), does not mean that anyone has ever pondered it beyond one second on the Astros.

I wish the media would just stop talking to each other as the source for stories. 

[Burzmali]

I disagree.   You have the immovable object in LF, and scott in RF is not very good either.  Your CF on this team has to be able to not only cover the expansive CF in MMP, but help your corner outfielders with balls in the gap(protecting their shortcomings).   Pence is not that kind of defender.  Hunter/Rowand are, and Jones has been in the past.   By replacing scott with hunter/rowand, you lose nothing offensively and possibly gain consistency, but you upgrade the range factor in CF/RF greatly.   Not to mention you can then use scott as trade bait for the pitching you need as this year's pitching class sucks in the free agent pool.   

Right now you have nothing you can afford to move for the pitching you need as scott is not expendable currently.         Plus, if you roll with this staff as is, you can kiss a winning season goodbye with a defensive outfield of lee/pence/scott.  This team needs to take a page out of the cardinals book the last few years, as they took average pitching and made it look above average with great defense.    Sometimes spending the money is better than keeping the cheaper alternative depending on your roster makeup.  This is one of those times.

Right.. the defense would be improved, but enough to justify a 10+ million a year contract? Seems iffy. If there aren't any other free agent bats available, maybe Draytan can spend that money to actually sign some top level prospects in the draft.

[Gizzmonic]

Right.. the defense would be improved, but enough to justify a 10+ million a year contract? Seems iffy. If there aren't any other free agent bats available, maybe Draytan can spend that money to actually sign some top level prospects in the draft.

Draytan is my motorrrrrrr

Hear my motor purrrrrr

Draytan is the only one who seems to understand me

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Draytan is my motorrrrrrr

Hear my motor purrrrrr

Draytan is the only one who seems to understand me

Funny story:  last time Cake played Houston, they had a helluva time getting the crowd to sing along with that chorus.  The lead singer eventually said, "look, I know this is the Bible belt and everything, but it's just a song.  Fucking sing along, people!"  We did.

[Taras Bulba]

Funny story:  last time Cake played Houston, they had a helluva time getting the crowd to sing along with that chorus.  The lead singer eventually said, "look, I know this is the Bible belt and everything, but it's just a song.  Fucking sing along, people!"  We did.

Too bad the crowd couldn't have responded with, "Look I know you're just a preening cocksucker with delusions that your music means something, but write a song worth a shit and maybe we'll give it a hum or two."

Hymen Roth enjoyed his cake.

[Noe]

Right.. the defense would be improved, but enough to justify a 10+ million a year contract? Seems iffy. If there aren't any other free agent bats available, maybe Draytan can spend that money to actually sign some top level prospects in the draft.

Defense is plural.  The improvement you have targeted is singular.  The two don't mesh.

[DVauthrin]

Defense is plural.  The improvement you have targeted is singular.  The two don't mesh.

Let me lay this out for those who don't get it(not directed at you or anyone in particular):

Right now this is your team:

C-Towles/Ausmus(you could go after posada, but they have committed to the kid, you aren't upgrading here, and outside of like 3 catchers it's not worth it)
1B-Lance(set, enough said)
2B-Burke(not good, and with loretta, castillo, iguchi on the market, I expect one of those 3 to be the OD starter)
SS-AE(there is nothing in free agency significantly better except a-rod and that isn't happening, and odds of good shortstops hitting FA is slim anyways)
3B-Wigginton(lowell or a-rod are out there, but they traded for ty with him starting in mind)
LF-Lee(set, enough said)
CF-Pence(set, but don't like his defense in center so moving him to right field)
RF-Scott(slightly above avg corner of offensively, blah defensively)

Pence, Lance, Lee are locks and not needing upgrade.   There is nothing in the SS market better than everett that they can afford, and they have decided their catcher plan.

That means you can upgrade at SP(nothing good in this market), RP(linebrink would be great) 2B(as I said one of iguchi, loretta or castillo will be the OD starter), 3B(A-Rod ain't happening, and lowell is going to get huge money, plus wigginton was traded for to start at 3b) and one OF spot(tons of good CF options available in rowand, hunter, jones, crisp, cameron)

Also consider this is your rotation:

Roy and a combo of sampson, backe, wandy, gutierrez albers, patton, paulino, woody.    After roy it's all about average at best.   Also consider you have a thin farm system and no assets you can spare to upgrade the rotation via trade, plus how many stud SP's will ever see FA, not many.   Santana won't see it next year, just like zambrano, etc.

If you want to win, and the astros do, you can't go into 08 with this pitching and that defensive outfield.   You will see mediocre pitching results and the offense isn't good enough to overcome it.     Now replace scott with hunter, rowand, cameron, jones, and perhaps crisp(he seemed to improve defensively in boston) and you lose nothing offensively if not potentially gaining a more consistent middle of the order guy(other than crisp who would fill the leadoff/number 2 hitter moving pence to 5th) but your outfield defense goes from below average overall to very good in one move.

Add a good defensive 2b like castillo or iguchi and your defense suddenly is in the elite, and can mask your average pitching, turning a blah team into a good one in one fell swoop.    Not to mention it frees up scott as an attractive trade chip for the pitching help you need.

You can say it's not worth 10 mil to go from scott to one of the good CF's on the market because scott's OPS and theirs are similar, but that's foolish and not looking at the big picture.    Your pitching isn't getting better anytime soon as the astros don't have the next Roy in their system right now, so eventually you will have to fix that OF alignment if you want to consistently win.  And scott will go at that time as pence and lee are cornerstones of the franchise.     

To get the complete OF they desperately need will cost 10 mil in any market, you might as well spend it now and make scott tradeable when he has good value, instead of waiting and potentially watching his value decline.   Plus, you better your odds of winning and making your franchise an attractive free agent destination in the future.   If you leave that outfield as is right now, with this staff, another losing season occurs, and free agents don't like playing for bottom dwellers.

[Gizzmonic]

Houston crowds are pretty unenthusiastic as a whole.  I'm from Houston and I can't explain it.  Anyway, I don't know what this has to do with the Godfather but Cake and John McCrea are fucking awesome musicians and they put on a great show.  They ain't no cocksuckers!

Too bad the crowd couldn't have responded with, "Look I know you're just a preening cocksucker with delusions that your music means something, but write a song worth a shit and maybe we'll give it a hum or two."

Hymen Roth enjoyed his cake.

[Taras Bulba]

Houston crowds are pretty unenthusiastic as a whole.  I'm from Houston and I can't explain it.  Anyway, I don't know what this has to do with the Godfather but Cake and John McCrea are fucking awesome musicians and they put on a great show.  They ain't no cocksuckers!

They may be the best thing since sliced bread, but it's their job to engage the crowd that paid to see them.   Otherwise, I don't know Cake (or shit).

[Noe]

If you want to win, and the astros do, you can't go into 08 with this pitching and that defensive outfield.   You will see mediocre pitching results and the offense isn't good enough to overcome it.     Now replace scott with hunter, rowand, cameron, jones, and perhaps crisp(he seemed to improve defensively in boston) and you lose nothing offensively if not potentially gaining a more consistent middle of the order guy(other than crisp who would fill the leadoff/number 2 hitter moving pence to 5th) but your outfield defense goes from below average overall to very good in one move.

Add a good defensive 2b like castillo or iguchi and your defense suddenly is in the elite, and can mask your average pitching, turning a blah team into a good one in one fell swoop.    Not to mention it frees up scott as an attractive trade chip for the pitching help you need.

You can say it's not worth 10 mil to go from scott to one of the good CF's on the market because scott's OPS and theirs are similar, but that's foolish and not looking at the big picture.    Your pitching isn't getting better anytime soon as the astros don't have the next Roy in their system right now, so eventually you will have to fix that OF alignment if you want to consistently win.  And scott will go at that time as pence and lee are cornerstones of the franchise.

The average fan usually thinks that being a GM for a major league franchise is easy to do.  The idea that one has to think above and beyond looking at a stat line and saying "oh look, he's got an OPS of XXX!" is foreign to most in terms of putting together a major league caliber team that is to compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Some fans really don't believe the Astros when they say outright and out loud "We have our core players in Lee, Berkman, Pence and Oswalt and we intend to build around them because we believe we can compete with that core in place."  And now that the Astros are going out and actually doing what they said they'd do (Core players, build around them, fix the defense and speed on this team), some fans are actually perplexed by it all.

[DVauthrin]

The average fan usually thinks that being a GM for a major league franchise is easy to do.  The idea that one has to think above and beyond looking at a stat line and saying "oh look, he's got an OPS of XXX!" is foreign to most in terms of putting together a major league caliber team that is to compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Some fans really don't believe the Astros when they say outright and out loud "We have our core players in Lee, Berkman, Pence and Oswalt and we intend to build around them because we believe we can compete with that core in place."  And now that the Astros are going out and actually doing what they said they'd do (Core players, build around them, fix the defense and speed on this team), some fans are actually perplexed by it all.

Now I understand stats like OPS/etc and if used as only a part of an analysis they can be useful.   However, what I find amusing is how so many fans who think they know what they are talking about will say Scott's OPS was identical or better than any free agent CF, why spend 10 million dollars on an OF?   That's only one part of the equation.   You have to consider your personnel and what is the easiest way to make said team a winner within our financial constraints, plus factor in what usually is available in the yearly talent market.  Also you must consider your marketable assets towards your fans, and for trades.

On this team, they need a better 5 hole hitter than scott(he is far too inconsistent and would bat 6th or 7th in a good lineup) and they need to cover up mediocre 2-5 spots in the rotation.    Thus the reason it is worth it for the long haul in this market to get a complete CF when you have the money and need.    Same as slightly overpaying if necessary to get the type of 2b they need to win.

Also, I agree with you about cornerstones.   Now, let's say in a hypothetical the twins put Johan Santana on the block, and come to Wade saying if you give me pence you have santana.   Then the cornerstone dynamic changes, as they would be foolish to not take a pitcher of that caliber, but only if they knew they would be able to resign him, if not the idea gets rejected.

[Burzmali]

Pence, Lance, Lee are locks and not needing upgrade.   There is nothing in the SS market better than everett that they can afford, and they have decided their catcher plan.

That means you can upgrade at SP(nothing good in this market), RP(linebrink would be great) 2B(as I said one of iguchi, loretta or castillo will be the OD starter), 3B(A-Rod ain't happening, and lowell is going to get huge money, plus wigginton was traded for to start at 3b) and one OF spot(tons of good CF options available in rowand, hunter, jones, crisp, cameron)

Also consider this is your rotation:

Roy and a combo of sampson, backe, wandy, gutierrez albers, patton, paulino, woody.    After roy it's all about average at best.   Also consider you have a thin farm system and no assets you can spare to upgrade the rotation via trade, plus how many stud SP's will ever see FA, not many.   Santana won't see it next year, just like zambrano, etc.

If you want to win, and the astros do, you can't go into 08 with this pitching and that defensive outfield.   You will see mediocre pitching results and the offense isn't good enough to overcome it.     Now replace scott with hunter, rowand, cameron, jones, and perhaps crisp(he seemed to improve defensively in boston) and you lose nothing offensively if not potentially gaining a more consistent middle of the order guy(other than crisp who would fill the leadoff/number 2 hitter moving pence to 5th) but your outfield defense goes from below average overall to very good in one move.

Add a good defensive 2b like castillo or iguchi and your defense suddenly is in the elite, and can mask your average pitching, turning a blah team into a good one in one fell swoop.    Not to mention it frees up scott as an attractive trade chip for the pitching help you need.

You can say it's not worth 10 mil to go from scott to one of the good CF's on the market because scott's OPS and theirs are similar, but that's foolish and not looking at the big picture.    Your pitching isn't getting better anytime soon as the astros don't have the next Roy in their system right now, so eventually you will have to fix that OF alignment if you want to consistently win.  And scott will go at that time as pence and lee are cornerstones of the franchise.     

To get the complete OF they desperately need will cost 10 mil in any market, you might as well spend it now and make scott tradeable when he has good value, instead of waiting and potentially watching his value decline.   Plus, you better your odds of winning and making your franchise an attractive free agent destination in the future.   If you leave that outfield as is right now, with this staff, another losing season occurs, and free agents don't like playing for bottom dwellers.

I understand what you're saying.

I agree that the defense would be improved, that's pretty obvious. I just dispute that the specific improvement that you're advocating is a necessary condition for the Astros having a winning season. I know I'm alone on this, but I think Burke has a better than average shot at being a huge upgrade defensively and offensively at second over 2007 production. Other things that have above average to above average chance of happening that would improve production over 2007:

1) Berkman rebounding from his worst season since his rookie year
2) Towles posting a better OPS than mid .600
3) Pence playing a full season
4) Scott playing a full season
5) Wandy improving consistency on the road
6) Backe for a full season
7) Significant progression of any of these: Patton, Albers, Gutierrez, Nieve, Sampson, Estrada, Paulino, Barthmaier

Basically I think the Astros have enough to be competitive in 08, enough to play with what they already have. Better to save the money, especially considering the potential free agent class next season.

[Noe]

Basically I think the Astros have enough to be competitive in 08, enough to play with what they already have. Better to save the money, especially considering the potential free agent class next season.

Yes, you would be right to say that "I think" because that is not what we've been talking about.  It's what the Astros think that is important here and hence why they are doing what they're doing.  They've said what they think are the deficiencies, they are now in a plan of action to fix it.

What you or I think matters very little because we don't own the club nor are the GM hired to make these decisions.

[Noe]

Now I understand stats like OPS/etc and if used as only a part of an analysis they can be useful.   However, what I find amusing is how so many fans who think they know what they are talking about will say Scott's OPS was identical or better than any free agent CF, why spend 10 million dollars on an OF?   That's only one part of the equation.   You have to consider your personnel and what is the easiest way to make said team a winner within our financial constraints, plus factor in what usually is available in the yearly talent market.  Also you must consider your marketable assets towards your fans, and for trades.

On this team, they need a better 5 hole hitter than scott(he is far too inconsistent and would bat 6th or 7th in a good lineup) and they need to cover up mediocre 2-5 spots in the rotation.    Thus the reason it is worth it for the long haul in this market to get a complete CF when you have the money and need.    Same as slightly overpaying if necessary to get the type of 2b they need to win.

Also, I agree with you about cornerstones.   Now, let's say in a hypothetical the twins put Johan Santana on the block, and come to Wade saying if you give me pence you have santana.   Then the cornerstone dynamic changes, as they would be foolish to not take a pitcher of that caliber, but only if they knew they would be able to resign him, if not the idea gets rejected.

Well said.  The Astros have gone to great lengths to identify what they consider their core and what they need to upgrade and build around said core.  Team speed and defense was on the top of the list because it doesn't help a young pitching staff you will probably have to support for a while with a plow horse of a defense.  So while it's nice to dream of Santana and A-Rod, the Tal Smiths and Ed Wades of the world, along with the Cecil Coopers work on a level of reality.  Falling into their laps is about the gist of how a Santana or A-Rod or even Miguel Cabrera would have to happen.  It's happen before, Gerry Hunsicker secured Jay Powell and Moises Alou that way and the Astros went from contender in '97 to prohibitive favorite in '98. 

But if Wade is doing what he seems to be doing, he's obvious to anyone paying attention that he really means it when he says this team needs a better defense and better team speed than it has.  And pitchers in the free agent market are not an option, it's a buyer beware market this season.  And don't look for the Astros to trade for a starter either, it's too costly in terms of minor league talent that they actually don't have to spare.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Basically I think the Astros have enough to be competitive in 08, enough to play with what they already have. Better to save the money, especially considering the potential free agent class next season.

But if Carlos Zambrano, Ben Sheets, Eric Byrnes, etc. have taught us anything over the last couple years, some of those coveted FA's may not be there next offseason.  We do know who's on the market at this second, and Wade would be remiss if he didn't put out a good-faith effort to get a 2B or CF upgrade.  Besides, the pressure's on to make some sort of splash as the new guy in town.  Personally, I'd love to grab Castillo and watch him thrive here, as an "eff you" payback for Beltran; Rowand or Hunter would be gravy.

Moreoever, I'd rather not see the 'stros repeat the Jason Lane mistake with Scott.  If management has decided that he's not part of the long term plan, then ditch him now lest his trade value decline due to inactivity, injury, or poor performance.  At very least, ship him out during spring training after the injury bug bites an outfielder elsewhere.

[Noe]

But if Carlos Zambrano, Ben Sheets, Eric Byrnes, etc. have taught us anything over the last couple years, some of those coveted FA's may not be there next offseason.  We do know who's on the market at this second, and Wade would be remiss if he didn't put out a good-faith effort to get a 2B or CF upgrade.  Besides, the pressure's on to make some sort of splash as the new guy in town.  Personally, I'd love to grab Castillo and watch him thrive here, as an "eff you" payback for Beltran; Rowand or Hunter would be gravy.

Moreoever, I'd rather not see the 'stros repeat the Jason Lane mistake with Scott.  If management has decided that he's not part of the long term plan, then ditch him now lest his trade value decline due to inactivity, injury, or poor performance.  At very least, ship him out during spring training after the injury bug bites an outfielder elsewhere.

I think you're correct that Castillo would be very good and Rowand or Hunter would be gravy of sorts.  Basically because of what we do know about Josh Anderson.  So how would that help shore up the #5 lineup order?  At first, I thought it wouldn't but... what if....

1. Josh Anderson CF
2. Luis Castillo 2nd
3. Hunter Pence RF
4. Lance Berkman 1st
5. Carlos Lee LF
6. JR Towles C
7. Ty Wiggington 3rd
8. Adam Everett SS

That is not a bad lineup but it is highly dependent upon Anderson to get on base and use his speed along with Castillo to wreck havoc and get Mr. Pence plenty-o-fastballs to hit.  Carlos Lee is a perfect #5 with his skills as a hitter and not just a slugger.  Berkman is a very good #4, an awesome #3... but this could work if Anderson proves he can play.

[Burzmali]

Yes, you would be right to say that "I think" because that is not what we've been talking about.  It's what the Astros think that is important here and hence why they are doing what they're doing.  They've said what they think are the deficiencies, they are now in a plan of action to fix it.

What you or I think matters very little because we don't own the club nor are the GM hired to make these decisions.

What you or I think matters very much with respect to our discussion.

I understand that Wade is exploring options, but imo 10+ million to marginally upgrade defense in center and substantially upgrade defense in right, is an inefficient use of resources.

[MusicMan]

What you or I think matters very much with respect to our discussion.

But unless you think the butterfly effect has wings, all of our discussions won't impact the Astros' decisions one whit.

I understand that Wade is exploring options, but imo 10+ million to marginally upgrade defense in center and substantially upgrade defense in right, is an inefficient use of resources.

Only if it means those "resources" can't be used for other purposes.

[Ty in Tampa]

What you or I think matters very much with respect to our discussion.

Not to speak for Noe but usually when the "What you or I think matters very little" gets tossed out there, the discussions over.

[Nate in IA]

But unless you think the butterfly effect has wings, all of our discussions won't impact the Astros' decisions one whit.

Not according to Drayton who cares very deeply what the fans think. 

I'm not advocating extending this discussion ad nauseum, just am interested how Drayton's pandering to the crowd is going to play out this year with a very busy (so far) Ed Wade.

[JimR]

What you or I think matters very much with respect to our discussion.

but imo 

i think he said the "imo" part does not matter.

[Burzmali]

But unless you think the butterfly effect has wings, all of our discussions won't impact the Astros' decisions one whit.

Only if it means those "resources" can't be used for other purposes.

Never said our discussions would impact anything.

Maybe the money could be used to give Wade more leeway at the deadline next season? I don't think it can be definitively said that that money is either used up now or never.

[pravata]

Not according to Drayton who cares very deeply what the fans think. 

I'm not advocating extending this discussion ad nauseum, just am interested how Drayton's pandering to the crowd is going to play out this year with a very busy (so far) Ed Wade.

Mclane has given the team to Tal Smith to fix.  And Tal Smith cares very little what fans think. 

[Noe]

What you or I think matters very much with respect to our discussion.

I understand that Wade is exploring options, but imo 10+ million to marginally upgrade defense in center and substantially upgrade defense in right, is an inefficient use of resources.

Case in point.  Your marginally is not the Astros marginally.  You're free though, to say that the Astros front office is full of shit and don't know their own arse from a hole in the ground!

[Noe]

Mclane has given the team to Tal Smith to fix.  And Tal Smith cares very little what fans think. 

If he did, he'd just run a blog and start asking for opinions.  What fun!

[pravata]

Not to speak for Noe but usually when the "What you or I think matters very little" gets tossed out there, the discussions over.

At least the interesting part.  Although some of us are very interested in their own speculations, to the exclusion of outside information. 

[Noe]

Not according to Drayton who cares very deeply what the fans think.

As consumers, yes.  As people he'd trust to run his organization?  Hardly.  I don't see one person on his baseball and operations payroll that screams "fan only" at me.  MBAs, Lawyers, PR experts, yes... I see those folks who must rely on those skills to do their job.  Same with baseball people.  Fans running the organization?  If so, why not have fans select the next concession vendor instead of the Aramark Group that serves up slop to us all?

There is business (consumers) and then there is business (contractual deals, et. al.)  I can see it now, fans tell McLane he must sign A-Rod to 360 million for 12 years.... and Drayton rushes right out and does it.

Right?