ALCS 5th inning rules question

[T. J.]

I hate to question McCarver (yeah right) but I've never heard of this ruling, and after 30 minutes of searching the official rulebook, I can't find a definitive answer.  I think he's an idiot, but I've been wrong before.

Situation:  Runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out.

Batter hits a pop fly into foul territory, 1st baseman tries to make a play, but bobbles the ball, slapping it up into the air a couple times, almost making the catch, but eventually drops it.  Runner on 3rd tags up and takes off towards home right when the 1st baseman first touches the ball (before the subsequent bobbles).

McCarver says "The runner at 3rd can go immediately when the fielder touches the ball.  He doesn't have to wait until the fielder catches the ball." 

Is that right?  I always thought it had to be an official catch.  In other words, the out had to be made before you could advance.  It's a moot point on this play obviously, because the fielder dropped the ball, but I'm interested in knowing if this was yet another idiotic statement by McCarver, or if he actually taught me something tonight. 

ETA:  If he IS correct, please point me to the official rulebook if you can find it, because I'd really like to see where I'm missing it.

[HudsonHawk]

McCarver is correct.  A player may tag up as soon as the ball is touched.  Otherwise, a fielder can "bobble" the ball all the way into the infield preventing the runner from scoring.  I'll try to find the official rule.

[austro]

I was always taught that you can leave as soon as the ball is touched by a fielder.  If he bobbles the ball, that's his problem.

What I didn't understand was why that play wasn't scored as an error.

[T. J.]

McCarver is correct.  A player may tag up as soon as the ball is touched.  Otherwise, a fielder can "bobble" the ball all the way into the infield preventing the runner from scoring.  I'll try to find the official rule.

Ok, now that you put it that way, that makes sense.  I can just see the centerfielder popping the ball out of his glove all the way to second base.  Ok, as usual, I'm an idiot.

[Frobie]

Ok, as usual, I'm an idiot.

I was wondering the exact same thing, so you're in... uh, well, not so great company I guess.  But I'm glad you asked.

[HudsonHawk]

Ok, now that you put it that way, that makes sense.  I can just see the centerfielder popping the ball out of his glove all the way to second base.  Ok, as usual, I'm an idiot.

Rule 2.0 Definition of Terms

Under "Catch":  "...Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball"

[T. J.]

Rule 2.0 Definition of Terms

Under "Catch":  "...Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball"

Many thanks.  Yep, I see it now.  When did MLB change their rules pages to PDFs?  That's a pain. 

Oh, and McCarver is still an idiot.  He just wasn't wrong on the facts on this one.

[HudsonHawk]

Many thanks.  Yep, I see it now.  When did MLB change their rules pages to PDFs?  That's a pain. 

Yeah, I know.  I was gonna cut and paste, then I was stuck trying to have to remember things. 

[austro]

Yeah, I know.  I was gonna cut and paste, then I was stuck trying to have to remember things. 

You can cut and paste, but they do their best to make it unobvious.  Position your mouse at the start point, then right-click and drag. That will highlight a section, which you can then copy with ctrl-C. For example,

An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team.

(Disclaimer: I'm using Adobe Reader 8.0; older versions may not work the same way.)

[Gizzmonic]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for using "moot" instead of mute!

I hate to question McCarver (yeah right) but I've never heard of this ruling, and after 30 minutes of searching the official rulebook, I can't find a definitive answer.  I think he's an idiot, but I've been wrong before.

Situation:  Runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out.

Batter hits a pop fly into foul territory, 1st baseman tries to make a play, but bobbles the ball, slapping it up into the air a couple times, almost making the catch, but eventually drops it.  Runner on 3rd tags up and takes off towards home right when the 1st baseman first touches the ball (before the subsequent bobbles).

McCarver says "The runner at 3rd can go immediately when the fielder touches the ball.  He doesn't have to wait until the fielder catches the ball." 

Is that right?  I always thought it had to be an official catch.  In other words, the out had to be made before you could advance.  It's a moot point on this play obviously, because the fielder dropped the ball, but I'm interested in knowing if this was yet another idiotic statement by McCarver, or if he actually taught me something tonight. 

ETA:  If he IS correct, please point me to the official rulebook if you can find it, because I'd really like to see where I'm missing it.

[ValpoCory]

What I didn't understand was why that play wasn't scored as an error.

I'm still waiting for the 27-up, 27-down perfect game that only gets counted as a no-hitter due to a dropped foul pop up.  Talk about pissing off a pitcher.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

My brain almost exploded trying to figure out what that idiot McCarver was trying to say about CERA the other night. Something about ballpark factor and starting pitchers. Of course CERA always makes my brain explosive, compound that with the significant nothing of McCarver's sound and fury and I don't want to be around any open flames.

[T. J.]

My brain almost exploded trying to figure out what that idiot McCarver was trying to say about CERA the other night. Something about ballpark factor and starting pitchers. Of course CERA always makes my brain explosive, compound that with the significant nothing of McCarver's sound and fury and I don't want to be around any open flames.

How about his brilliant observation that innings that start off with a home run generate more multi-run innings than innings that start off with a walk?  Amazing insight.

[BUWebguy]

How about his brilliant observation that innings that start off with a home run generate more multi-run innings than innings that start off with a walk?  Amazing insight.

At least he gets that much. Joe Morgan pulled out the old "home runs are rally killers" shtick last night on the radio -- during the Indians' big inning, no less.

[HurricaneDavid]

How about his brilliant observation that innings that start off with a home run generate more multi-run innings than innings that start off with a walk?  Amazing insight.

Last night was the 2nd time I had heard that line this postseason... don't remember if the first time was out of his mouth or someone else's.

IIRC, the line was: "Conventional wisdom indicates that a leadoff walk would lead to more multi-run innings than a leadoff homerun, but we did the research, and this season, that was not the case."

Both times, it sounded like he/they were trying to say that you'd rather have a leadoff walk than a leadoff homerun, which of course is absurd.

I can only assume that he's trying to compare the total number of multi-run innings started by walks vs. the total number of multi-run innings started by homeruns (not the percentage of the time that either leads to a multi-run inning), and since one would think leadoff walks are far more common than leadoff homeruns, you'd also think there are more multi-run innings started by walks than by homeruns.  Regardless, both times they did an awful job conveying this stat.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm still waiting for the 27-up, 27-down perfect game that only gets counted as a no-hitter due to a dropped foul pop up.  Talk about pissing off a pitcher.

An error on a foul ball does not spoil a perfect game.

[VirtualBob]

Last night was the 2nd time I had heard that line this postseason... don't remember if the first time was out of his mouth or someone else's.

IIRC, the line was: "Conventional wisdom indicates that a leadoff walk would lead to more multi-run innings than a leadoff homerun, but we did the research, and this season, that was not the case."

Both times, it sounded like he/they were trying to say that you'd rather have a leadoff walk than a leadoff homerun, which of course is absurd.

I can only assume that he's trying to compare the total number of multi-run innings started by walks vs. the total number of multi-run innings started by homeruns (not the percentage of the time that either leads to a multi-run inning), and since one would think leadoff walks are far more common than leadoff homeruns, you'd also think there are more multi-run innings started by walks than by homeruns.  Regardless, both times they did an awful job conveying this stat.

Of course, it might really be the case that after a lead-off HR the pitcher often bears down and gets out of the inning without further damage.  Since all innings start with nobody out and nobody on, and since most innings do not involve any scoring, I can imagine that a majority of lead-off HR's result in one-run innings. 

The more important stat, though, is which situation leads to the highest percentage of innings in which at least one run scores?  All of a sudden that lead-off HR begins to compare favorably with pretty much any other option.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Of course, it might really be the case that after a lead-off HR the pitcher often bears down and gets out of the inning without further damage.  Since all innings start with nobody out and nobody on, and since most innings do not involve any scoring, I can imagine that a majority of lead-off HR's result in one-run innings. 

The more important stat, though, is which situation leads to the highest percentage of innings in which at least one run scores?  All of a sudden that lead-off HR begins to compare favorably with pretty much any other option.

There are three types of lies.  There are lies, damnable lies, and lying with statistics.

[Arky Vaughan]

Last night was the 2nd time I had heard that line this postseason... don't remember if the first time was out of his mouth or someone else's.

IIRC, the line was: "Conventional wisdom indicates that a leadoff walk would lead to more multi-run innings than a leadoff homerun, but we did the research, and this season, that was not the case."

Both times, it sounded like he/they were trying to say that you'd rather have a leadoff walk than a leadoff homerun, which of course is absurd.

I can only assume that he's trying to compare the total number of multi-run innings started by walks vs. the total number of multi-run innings started by homeruns (not the percentage of the time that either leads to a multi-run inning), and since one would think leadoff walks are far more common than leadoff homeruns, you'd also think there are more multi-run innings started by walks than by homeruns.  Regardless, both times they did an awful job conveying this stat.

Basically they were asking which is more likely:

bases empty, no outs leading to one run scored

vs.

runner on first, no outs leading to two runs scored

[BUWebguy]

An error on a foul ball does not spoil a perfect game.

Ah - I'd never thought about it, but you're right:

An official perfect game occurs when a pitcher (or pitchers) retires each batter on the opposing team during the entire course of a game, which consists of at least nine innings. In a perfect game, no batter reaches any base during the course of the game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

[JimR]

Ah - I'd never thought about it, but you're right:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

the hell you say

[austro]

Ah - I'd never thought about it, but you're right:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

From that same page:

The MLB logo:
No one player has ever been identified as the model of the 1969 Major League Baseball batter logo.

Looks like Clemente to me.

[ValpoCory]

An error on a foul ball does not spoil a perfect game.

Cool.  Thanks. 

[HurricaneDavid]

From that same page:
Looks like Clemente to me.

Harmon Killebrew's name has come up in the past, though MLB always claims it is no one in particular.

[Duman]

I was always taught that you can leave as soon as the ball is touched by a fielder.  If he bobbles the ball, that's his problem.

What I didn't understand was why that play wasn't scored as an error.

I agree with your question.  I thought the same thing and one of the talking heads even said "it won't be charged as an error because it was in foul territory". 

Rule 10.12 (1) says:

whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a
batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to
advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such
fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base
before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the
catch;

Okay because of the result of the miss, the bat was prolonged and he didn't deliberately miss it to prevent the runner from tagging.  To me that is an error.

[ValpoCory]

"Rule 10.12 (1) says:
Quote
whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw)"

What about miscommunication between two fielders and the ball falls in between them?

I've heard people say "can't be an error since the ball didn't touch the glove".

[JimR]

"Rule 10.12 (1) says:
Quote
whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw)"

What about miscommunication between two fielders and the ball falls in between them?

I've heard people say "can't be an error since the ball didn't touch the glove".

scorer's discretion

that very play cost Ryan a third no hitter one year with the Angels.

[HudsonHawk]

"Rule 10.12 (1) says:
Quote
whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw)"

What about miscommunication between two fielders and the ball falls in between them?

I've heard people say "can't be an error since the ball didn't touch the glove".

Touching the glove is not a requirement for an error.  Many groundballs go right between a fielder's legs, it's still an error.  An error should be scored anytime a play should be made and isn't, be that a foul ball, miscommunication, player falling asleep, what have you.

[Duman]

scorer's discretion

Definition of Scorer's Discretion - can I justify my call/no call to the manager after the game.  They still may request the change and you still might make it but can you coherently justify why you scored it the way you did.  If you can't, you are asking for trouble.

[Limey]

An error should be scored anytime a play should be made and isn't, be that a foul ball, miscommunication, player falling asleep, what have you.

But what about players other than Berkman?

[MusicMan]

that very play cost Ryan a third no hitter one year with the Angels.

And years later, he punished Robin Ventura for it.

[ValpoCory]

Touching the glove is not a requirement for an error.  Many groundballs go right between a fielder's legs, it's still an error.  An error should be scored anytime a play should be made and isn't, be that a foul ball, miscommunication, player falling asleep, what have you.

That's what I thought.  A play like this happened in the Baylor-Texas scrimmage on Sunday at the Dell Diamond.  It was scored a hit.  I said that should have been an error, and the guy behind me said "It didn't touch a glove".  I said "it doesn't matter".  I'm glad I was right in correcting him.

[Duman]

That's what I thought.  A play like this happened in the Baylor-Texas scrimmage on Sunday at the Dell Diamond.  It was scored a hit.  I said that should have been an error, and the guy behind me said "It didn't touch a glove".  I said "it doesn't matter".  I'm glad I was right in correcting him.

I have heard the "didn't touch the glove" excuse when it is a fly ball that is misjudged or a bad route is taken to the ball.  I think part of that is because you don't know what other factors may be involved.  You can tell if the ball takes a bad hop on the infield but you have no idea if the ball gets lost in the sun or in the white tee shirts in the stands. 

I have never heard it offered on a misplayed ground ball.

[ValpoCory]

I have never heard it offered on a misplayed ground ball.

Me neither.  See Josh Beckett's error in the 7th last night.