Pence

[JimR]

Certainly looks human thus far today.

[Mike]

Would be expected after a month off.  He is 6 for 28 since returning hitting wise. 5 games back(8 if you count the 3 rehab games in RR).  Would expect his numbers to be a little off on returning from a layoff. Would also expect some rust on the defensive side as well, but unfortunately I haven't been able to watch any of the games since his return due to MLB blackout rules.

[Reuben]

Certainly looks human thus far today.

Sort of reminds me of the way Alfonso Soriano used to flail away at balls way out of the zone- I'm sure he still does, but I mean especially his first couple years.

[ybbodeus]

As the so-called book on Pence in the majors grows more into non-fiction versus fiction, can we expect to see opposing pitchers continue to take a less challenging approach when facing him, instead going with efforts geared towards steering him to take chances? 

And was this why he wasn't up immediately after spring training, because they wanted to see how he'd respond to a greater variety of approaches? 

If this is old ground, hope you don't mind revisiting it.

[pravata]

As the so-called book on Pence in the majors grows more into non-fiction versus fiction, can we expect to see opposing pitchers continue to take a less challenging approach when facing him, instead going with efforts geared towards steering him to take chances? 

And was this why he wasn't up immediately after spring training, because they wanted to see how he'd respond to a greater variety of approaches? 

If this is old ground, hope you don't mind revisiting it.

Quick recap of reasons, they were concerned about Pence's plate discipline, his maturity, and they had a committment to Burke. 

[ybbodeus]

Thanks.  {tip of the cap}

[Noe]

Quick recap of reasons, they were concerned about Pence's plate discipline, his maturity, and they had a committment to Burke. 

I would've paid cash money to be a fly on the wall in Phil Garner's office on Friday night.  Not so much to hear him rant about Brad Lidge or Xavier Nady (official Scrap Iron comment on that one: "It was down and it looked to me like it might have been a little bit away from the middle of the plate towards the outside, but it was down," Garner said of the pitch to Nady. "It was not what I would call a hanging slider."), but to hear him talk to himself (in loud terms) about Pence's one out, bases loaded AB in the 10th.

It was an absolutely horrible AB.

I'm not picking on the kid, far from it.  But what I'm saying is that Phil Garner has often times for the past few years railed about the Astros inability to hit well in those particular situations.  Garner goes on usually about how it is really not that difficult to go up there with the right approach to hitting the ball to go ahead and score the run from third base.  Scraps usually wants his guys to look towards the middle of the diamond and to elevate the ball.  Those runs from third base are usually called giveaway runs and for the life of him, Scraps just doesn't understand why it is so damn difficult for hitters in this modern era to fail in such situations.

Official Garner on this:

"I've said this more than my fair share of times this year, we had our opportunities, we had chances," Astros manager Phil Garner said. "We just didn't put the ball in play, we didn't make contact a few times, we just didn't make it happen. We did a nice job putting ourselves in position to win the game, we just didn't follow through with it."

It's interesting that this happened with Pence in the 10th because the reality of it all is that they cannot mess with this kid's aggressive nature.  It is what makes Pence what he is in the majors, but it got exploited beeg tine by the Pirates who pitched him masterfully and made his aggressiveness work against him in what turned out to be a very huge situation for the Astros to walk away with a win.

Fastball/92 mph in on the hands, up - foul ball.
Fastball/90 mph, down and outside - foul ball.
Slider/84 mph, breaking severely down and away - swing and a miss.

1 - 2 - 3, your out.

The next time up, Pence was ready for the inside fastball and opened up quickly and doubled down the line.  One AB too late for sure.  Thems the breaks and for me, you don't change Pence, you let him be aggressive all the time and hope for the best.  But at some point, they'll have to teach the kid the situation dicates how he can do better with the bat.  Chacon had just walked two batters before him and Pence went up there hacking on the first pitch (that looked like a fastball up and was a ball).

He'll learn, but for now, Scraps will just have to deal with the same damn thing again with this ball club: scoring a free run from third with less than two outs.

[Rebel Jew]

you're an idiot, noe'.  pence is hittin' .321!  that's the highest average on the team.  you can't argue with production.

I would've paid cash money to be a fly on the wall in Phil Garner's office on Friday night.  Not so much to hear him rant about Brad Lidge or Xavier Nady (official Scrap Iron comment on that one: "It was down and it looked to me like it might have been a little bit away from the middle of the plate towards the outside, but it was down," Garner said of the pitch to Nady. "It was not what I would call a hanging slider."), but to hear him talk to himself (in loud terms) about Pence's one out, bases loaded AB in the 10th.

It was an absolutely horrible AB.

I'm not picking on the kid, far from it.  But what I'm saying is that Phil Garner has often times for the past few years railed about the Astros inability to hit well in those particular situations.  Garner goes on usually about how it is really not that difficult to go up there with the right approach to hitting the ball to go ahead and score the run from third base.  Scraps usually wants his guys to look towards the middle of the diamond and to elevate the ball.  Those runs from third base are usually called giveaway runs and for the life of him, Scraps just doesn't understand why it is so damn difficult for hitters in this modern era to fail in such situations.

Official Garner on this:

"I've said this more than my fair share of times this year, we had our opportunities, we had chances," Astros manager Phil Garner said. "We just didn't put the ball in play, we didn't make contact a few times, we just didn't make it happen. We did a nice job putting ourselves in position to win the game, we just didn't follow through with it."

It's interesting that this happened with Pence in the 10th because the reality of it all is that they cannot mess with this kid's aggressive nature.  It is what makes Pence what he is in the majors, but it got exploited beeg tine by the Pirates who pitched him masterfully and made his aggressiveness work against him in what turned out to be a very huge situation for the Astros to walk away with a win.

Fastball/92 mph in on the hands, up - foul ball.
Fastball/90 mph, down and outside - foul ball.
Slider/84 mph, breaking severely down and away - swing and a miss.

1 - 2 - 3, your out.

The next time up, Pence was ready for the inside fastball and opened up quickly and doubled down the line.  One AB too late for sure.  Thems the breaks and for me, you don't change Pence, you let him be aggressive all the time and hope for the best.  But at some point, they'll have to teach the kid the situation dicates how he can do better with the bat.  Chacon had just walked two batters before him and Pence went up there hacking on the first pitch (that looked like a fastball up and was a ball).

He'll learn, but for now, Scraps will just have to deal with the same damn thing again with this ball club: scoring a free run from third with less than two outs.

[ybbodeus]

He saw that funky infield move by Tracy and sorta freaked out.  Maybe he got "hero complex" or had a Brave Sir Robin at the Bridge of Death moment {"That's EASY!!!") and completely lost his head.  He looked like Tiger Woods swinging with all of his might on ONE of those pitches, except Tiger doesn't miss the ball by a foot and a half.

What's he hitting since he returned?

[Noe]

you're an idiot, noe'.  pence is hittin' .321!  that's the highest average on the team.  you can't argue with production.

You nailed the part about the idiot correctly.  I am that and more.  And the part about Pence and productivity, again, very true and you cannot argue against production.

But what I want to point out is more on what Garner must think when he watches the modern day hackers/free swingers come up through the ranks.  It's nothing against Pence because this has been a burr under Scrap's saddle for several years now.  Pence is just the latest candidate for Scrap's disgusted stare as he heads back to the pine to take a seat.  It kinda speaks a little to the topic that was rehashed again in this here TZ about "approach" versus "results".  The right approach handles this situation much better.  The results for Pence this year however cannot be debated.  He is a fine young hitter.  I'm sure he'll welcome criticism about his approach though, just my hunch.

(PS - I know you're being sarcastic, had my meter recalibrated this weekend, so I understand... but I'm not being sarcastic about me being an idiot.  I fully agree with that one whether you meant it or not!)

[pravata]

He saw that funky infield move by Tracy and sorta freaked out.  Maybe he got "hero complex" or had a Brave Sir Robin at the Bridge of Death moment {"That's EASY!!!") and completely lost his head.  He looked like Tiger Woods swinging with all of his might on ONE of those pitches, except Tiger doesn't miss the ball by a foot and a half.

What's he hitting since he returned?

see "Last 7" although he's only been back for 6,
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=28687

[JimR]

I would've paid cash money to be a fly on the wall in Phil Garner's office on Friday night.  Not so much to hear him rant about Brad Lidge or Xavier Nady (official Scrap Iron comment on that one: "It was down and it looked to me like it might have been a little bit away from the middle of the plate towards the outside, but it was down," Garner said of the pitch to Nady. "It was not what I would call a hanging slider."), but to hear him talk to himself (in loud terms) about Pence's one out, bases loaded AB in the 10th.

It was an absolutely horrible AB.

I'm not picking on the kid, far from it.  But what I'm saying is that Phil Garner has often times for the past few years railed about the Astros inability to hit well in those particular situations.  Garner goes on usually about how it is really not that difficult to go up there with the right approach to hitting the ball to go ahead and score the run from third base.  Scraps usually wants his guys to look towards the middle of the diamond and to elevate the ball.  Those runs from third base are usually called giveaway runs and for the life of him, Scraps just doesn't understand why it is so damn difficult for hitters in this modern era to fail in such situations.

Official Garner on this:

"I've said this more than my fair share of times this year, we had our opportunities, we had chances," Astros manager Phil Garner said. "We just didn't put the ball in play, we didn't make contact a few times, we just didn't make it happen. We did a nice job putting ourselves in position to win the game, we just didn't follow through with it."

It's interesting that this happened with Pence in the 10th because the reality of it all is that they cannot mess with this kid's aggressive nature.  It is what makes Pence what he is in the majors, but it got exploited beeg tine by the Pirates who pitched him masterfully and made his aggressiveness work against him in what turned out to be a very huge situation for the Astros to walk away with a win.

Fastball/92 mph in on the hands, up - foul ball.
Fastball/90 mph, down and outside - foul ball.
Slider/84 mph, breaking severely down and away - swing and a miss.

1 - 2 - 3, your out.

The next time up, Pence was ready for the inside fastball and opened up quickly and doubled down the line.  One AB too late for sure.  Thems the breaks and for me, you don't change Pence, you let him be aggressive all the time and hope for the best.  But at some point, they'll have to teach the kid the situation dicates how he can do better with the bat.  Chacon had just walked two batters before him and Pence went up there hacking on the first pitch (that looked like a fastball up and was a ball).

He'll learn, but for now, Scraps will just have to deal with the same damn thing again with this ball club: scoring a free run from third with less than two outs.

absolutely horrible AB--swinging his ass off instead of just trying to put the ball in play

[ybbodeus]

see "Last 7" although he's only been back for 6,
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=28687

Yikes!  Worse than I thought.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

absolutely horrible AB--swinging his ass off instead of just trying to put the ball in play

Careful Jim, if some readers actually paid attention, they might start to understand some of your other stated opinions (ex: Why you think Lee is a better hitter).  You're going to ruin your reputation if you make it so easy.   

[JimR]

Careful Jim, if some readers actually paid attention, they might start to understand some of your other stated opinions (ex: Why you think Lee is a better hitter).  You're going to ruin your reputation if you make it so easy.   

not sure my reputation can be ruined further.

[MusicMan]

Careful Jim, if some readers actually could understand plain English, they might start to understand some of your other stated opinions (ex: Why you think Lee is a better hitter). 

FIFY.

[Mr. Happy]

absolutely horrible AB--swinging his ass off instead of just trying to put the ball in play

Yep. Swinging for the downs was not what was needed. He needed to think like Carlos Lee in that situation. Bases loaded, one out-you have got to get A run home, especially in extras.

[pravata]

Yep. Swinging for the downs was not what was needed. He needed to think like Carlos Lee in that situation. Bases loaded, one out-you have got to get A run home, especially in extras.

Yeahbut, at this point, if that's the only way you know how to hit, then go ahead, grip it and rip it.  Not going to figure it out all of a sudden facing major league pitchers.

[Mr. Happy]

Yeahbut, at this point, if that's the only way you know how to hit, then go ahead, grip it and rip it.  Not going to figure it out all of a sudden facing major league pitchers.

True. Better that approach than deer in the headlights. But that is something for him to work on during the off season or I fear that pitchers will quit throwing him strikes.

[Noe]

Yeahbut, at this point, if that's the only way you know how to hit, then go ahead, grip it and rip it.  Not going to figure it out all of a sudden facing major league pitchers.

Eggszactly!

[Noe]

True. Better that approach than deer in the headlights. But that is something for him to work on during the off season or I fear that pitchers will quit throwing him strikes.

I've noticed that they try to pitch hard inside at the hands and soft outside down by the knees.  What Pence does well is adjust to the hard inside stuff, evidenced by his ringing double down the line his next AB when they came hard inside again.  The soft outside stuff works if you bust him inside effectively.  If not, he'll spit on the breaking ball away until he gets a hitters count on him.

While I agree on the "deer in the headlights" approach not being a good one, Chacon had just walked Brad Aumus and Orlando Palmiero with some pretty wild pitches.  I would think Pence was going to take at least one pitch.  He didn't, but then again, he may of thought to himself "this guy needs to throw a strike so I'm going to swing if it's a fastball middle in!".  Chacon made a very good up and in pitch that tied up his hands.  Sometimes, it's not about the hitter, it's about the pitcher doing his job well.  The other two strikes were about Pence being antsy to do something.  His aggressiveness was what caused the next two strikes to happen.

[Mr. Happy]

I've noticed that they try to pitch hard inside at the hands and soft outside down by the knees.  What Pence does well is adjust to the hard inside stuff, evidenced by his ringing double down the line his next AB when they came hard inside again.  The soft outside stuff works if you bust him inside effectively.  If not, he'll spit on the breaking ball away until he gets a hitters count on him.

While I agree on the "deer in the headlights" approach not being a good one, Chacon had just walked Brad Aumus and Orlando Palmiero with some pretty wild pitches.  I would think Pence was going to take at least one pitch.  He didn't, but then again, he may of thought to himself "this guy needs to throw a strike so I'm going to swing if it's a fastball middle in!".  Chacon made a very good up and in pitch that tied up his hands.  Sometimes, it's not about the hitter, it's about the pitcher doing his job well.  The other two strikes were about Pence being antsy to do something.  His aggressiveness was what caused the next two strikes to happen.

Chacon's first pitch was pretty good. I hadn't thought about a "book" on Pence yet, but in retrospect, I agree with you.

[Noe]

Chacon's first pitch was pretty good. I hadn't thought about a "book" on Pence yet, but in retrospect, I agree with you.

They used to say that if you pitched Jeff Bagwell up and in, his aggressiveness would work against him.  Hence why Baggy started to get hit on the hands a lot (before the protector they came up with to let him continue his career).  Baggy could reach the outside pitches and is/was an aggressive hitter, never altering how he hard he wanted to hit a ball even with two strikes on him.  However, he was inclined to hit a ball hard to right/right centerfield.

Hunter Pence has been for a majority of the time I've watched him a middle to left field hitter, pretty much killing the right field approach.  So in order to get him to swing badly at outside pitches (soft away), you need to bust him in every once and awhile.  I think many pitchers are surprised how quick his bat is on the inside pitches though, hence why he can hit for a high average.  But if you make a good inside, on the hands pitches to start off, you'll have a very good chance of getting him out soft away.  The key, IMHO, is to make sure you make a good pitch inside early on the kid.

[Mr. Happy]

They used to say that if you pitched Jeff Bagwell up and in, his aggressiveness would work against him.  Hence why Baggy started to get hit on the hands a lot (before the protector they came up with to let him continue his career).  Baggy could reach the outside pitches and is/was an aggressive hitter, never altering how he hard he wanted to hit a ball even with two strikes on him.  However, he was inclined to hit a ball hard to right/right centerfield.

Hunter Pence has been for a majority of the time I've watched him a middle to left field hitter, pretty much killing the right field approach.  So in order to get him to swing badly at outside pitches (soft away), you need to bust him in every once and awhile.  I think many pitchers are surprised how quick his bat is on the inside pitches though, hence why he can hit for a high average.  But if you make a good inside, on the hands pitches to start off, you'll have a very good chance of getting him out soft away.  The key, IMHO, is to make sure you make a good pitch inside early on the kid.

Pence has a very quick bat. If he learns how to use the entire field and to hit the ball sometimes where it is pitched, he'll be a special player in this league for a long time. I love to watch him play because he goes all out. That approach could cause him some DL time though if he's not careful. I don't want to see him crashing hard into walls a la Pete Reiser.

[Noe]

Pence has a very quick bat. If he learns how to use the entire field and to hit the ball sometimes where it is pitched, he'll be a special player in this league for a long time. I love to watch him play because he goes all out. That approach could cause him some DL time though if he's not careful. I don't want to see him crashing hard into walls a la Pete Reiser.

His bat is lightning quick and it will mean good things for a good long time for him.  But in situations like that on Friday night, I'd rather see Loretta or Lee at the plate than Pence.  Nothing against the kid, but it's at that time that a good pitcher can exploit your weakness and you need to know how to handle yourself in that key situation.

Pence was the wrong guy in the right situation.  Hopefully, he'll learn he can be the right guy in the right situation as well, at least that one.  That is ultimately made Bagwell an elite player from just a good hitting young kid coming through the majors.

[Mr. Happy]

His bat is lightning quick and it will mean good things for a good long time for him.  But in situations like that on Friday night, I'd rather see Loretta or Lee at the plate than Pence.  Nothing against the kid, but it's at that time that a good pitcher can exploit your weakness and you need to know how to handle yourself in that key situation.

Pence was the wrong guy in the right situation.  Hopefully, he'll learn he can be the right guy in the right situation as well, at least that one.

You're correct. Loretta or Lee would have probably gotten a run home. He'll learn. I've had fun watching him blossom. I can endure the growing pains. He'll have some rough times. Remember when Baggy had a slump for about a third of a seasonBerkman has been in a slump for a fair amount of this season. But its still a ball to watch our guys play. Gosh they're good. I have so much respect for the talent of ML'ers. Hell for that matter, professional ball players. It is just so hard to be really good in this game.

[Noe]

You're correct. Loretta or Lee would have probably gotten a run home. He'll learn. I've had fun watching him blossom. I can endure the growing pains. He'll have some rough times. Remember when Baggy had a slump for about a third of a seasonBerkman has been in a slump for a fair amount of this season. But its still a ball to watch our guys play. Gosh they're good. I have so much respect for the talent of ML'ers. Hell for that matter, professional ball players. It is just so hard to be really good in this game.

Yup.  We tend to forget that the other team has major league talent on their side as well.  You don't want it any other way, put your best nine out there and let's see if the Astros nine can out hit, out play, our run and out everything them.  Pence will learn or else he'll be quickly a good but never great major leaguer.  If he learns, he can be very good at the major league level.  If he starts to press because he's not doing so well... then just look at what happened to Jason Lane and Morgan Ensberg whydontcha!