godamn it, purpura!!!!!

[HPFRic]

the fucking devil rays turned wheeler around for... oh, wait - never mind....

btw (in anticipation of the coming tidal wave of LCD): luis castillo netted a AA prospect and a hi-A prospect; kenny lofton netted a lo-A prospect; eric gagne netted two marginal prospects and a 17-year old; and octavio dotel netted a recently demoted triple A prospect.

really, only san diego struck gold, turning linebrink into two really good prospects, both of whom are a year or two away at least.

wiggington for wheeler and holding onto lamb and loretta in lieu of dumping them for marginal and/or low-level prospects doesn't look all that awful in that context, if it really looks awful in any context.

[otterjb]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't for Mr. P.

[Arky Vaughan]

the fucking devil rays turned wheeler around for... oh, wait - never mind....

btw (in anticipation of the coming tidal wave of LCD): luis castillo netted a AA prospect and a hi-A prospect; kenny lofton netted a lo-A prospect; eric gagne netted two marginal prospects and a 17-year old; and octavio dotel netted a recently demoted triple A prospect.

really, only san diego struck gold, turning linebrink into two really good prospects, both of whom are a year or two away at least.

wiggington for wheeler and holding onto lamb and loretta in lieu of dumping them for marginal and/or low-level prospects doesn't look all that awful in that context, if it really looks awful in any context.

Was Wigginton-for-Wheeler the only trade that involved two established major-leaguers?

[remy]

Was Wigginton-for-Wheeler the only trade that involved two established major-leaguers?

Salty for Tex, but there were also minor leaguers involved in that one.

[HPFRic]

Salty for Tex, but there were also minor leaguers involved in that one.

saltalamacchia isn't exactly "established." you could argue wiggington was perhaps the second-best position player dealt, especially given his contract status.

[Noe]

saltalamacchia isn't exactly "established." you could argue wiggington was perhaps the second-best position player dealt, especially given his contract status.

To think, had they been able to pry away Michael Bourn, then Houston would've gotten an establish club-controlled 3rd baseman and a leadoff/CF almost established but major leaguer nonetheless club controlled player.

That was a really well thought out approach to this trading deadline.  IMHO of course.

[coop]

Proctor for Betemit

[HPFRic]

To think, had they been able to pry away Michael Bourn, then Houston would've gotten an establish club-controlled 3rd baseman and a leadoff/CF almost established but major leaguer nonetheless club controlled player.

and bourn is a guy they can maybe land this winter. but yes, wiggington and bourn would have been a very nice haul.

[Noe]

BTW - the best thing is that this sets up the offseason well.  He knows what he needs (SP and a CF/Leadoff).  He knows what he'll lose via free agency (Trever Miller? Loretta, Lamb, Jennings).  He knows what he's had to trade away (Wheeler).  He can now sit down and establish who is going to fill those roles from the youngsters and who he just has to go get via trade and/or free agency.

Should be fun.

[Noe]

and bourn is a guy they can maybe land this winter. but yes, wiggington and bourn would have been a very nice haul.

I think it has a chance this winter.  It all depends on Rowand and Victorino and how much Philly management thinks these guys need to be retained.  Sometimes you make choices for the veteran guys because you think that is your best way to compete.  But if they think it's easy to replace Rowand with Bourn (two different guys though, one is a middle to low lineup hitter and the other is a leadoff guy with speed).  Victorino and Rollins already take up the top of the lineup and I think they're not going to re-up Burrell (could be wrong on that one).

Michael Bourn isn't entirely off the table, they're just not ready to deal him now.  Many times a deal is started in the winter and gets consummated later.  Many times deals get started during the season and get consummated during the winter.  If Chad Qualls really deals for the rest of the season and the Phills miss the playoffs and one of the reasons is a bullpen that was leaky and Brett Myers not really doing well as a closer, this has a chance of being revisited later.

Houston, in the meantime, can trot out kids like Estrada and Guiterrez for a looksee during this season to see if maybe they're in better shape than they think if they were to trade Qualls.  The thing about all this is that Tim Purpura is telling folks eggszactly what he's doing and what he's looking for... and none of them are listening to him!  They act surprised at this trades and what he targets in the free agent market.

[HPFRic]

BTW - the best thing is that this sets up the offseason well.  He knows what he needs (SP and a CF/Leadoff). 

have there been any discussions 'round here about wiggington possibly being the 2b next year? he doesn't really do a lot for me as an everyday 3b, but his numbers looks fabulous for a 4. i know the company line was "third baseman for the next several years" but isn't that assuming burke is the answer at 2b?

[Navin R Johnson]

With Rowand being a FA this fall, I dont imagine the Phils will be interested in dealing Bourn.   Of course maybe the Phils will re-up with AR for big bucks and be willing to move MB?    I think letting Rowand go and using that money to go after a pitcher are more likely.

[Noe]

With Rowand being a FA this fall, I dont imagine the Phils will be interested in dealing Bourn.   Of course maybe the Phils will re-up with AR for big bucks and be willing to move MB?    I think letting Rowand go and using that money to go after a pitcher are more likely.

Don't count out Victorino.  However, I'm not so sure that Rowand will walk.  The power of the incumbent might come into play here and if the Phillies just feel Bourn can wait one more year and Rowand is a better fit (he hits middle of the lineup), then they'll explore that.  I'm sure they'll want another pitcher, but Charlie Manuel is already telling the organization to stop trying to get them veteran arms if all they get is average to low average guys.  He (Manuel) would rather give youngsters a chance to pitch.  He sees what Hamels has done and he's really pushing that they continue this trend.

Any way, I don't think Rowand leaving Philly is a foregone conclusion.  But the Phillies were smart to hang on to Bourn right now to have insurance just in case Rowand does leave.  They'll have no problems either way.  Trading him now would've given Rowand too much leverage.

[Navin R Johnson]

But the Phillies were smart to hang on to Bourn right now to have insurance just in case Rowand does leave.  They'll have no problems either way.  Trading him now would've given Rowand too much leverage.

Very astute point, didnt think of that angle.

   

[JimR]

I think it has a chance this winter.  It all depends on Rowand and Victorino and how much Philly management thinks these guys need to be retained.  Sometimes you make choices for the veteran guys because you think that is your best way to compete.  But if they think it's easy to replace Rowand with Bourn (two different guys though, one is a middle to low lineup hitter and the other is a leadoff guy with speed).  Victorino and Rollins already take up the top of the lineup and I think they're not going to re-up Burrell (could be wrong on that one).

Michael Bourn isn't entirely off the table, they're just not ready to deal him now.  Many times a deal is started in the winter and gets consummated later.  Many times deals get started during the season and get consummated during the winter.  If Chad Qualls really deals for the rest of the season and the Phills miss the playoffs and one of the reasons is a bullpen that was leaky and Brett Myers not really doing well as a closer, this has a chance of being revisited later.

Houston, in the meantime, can trot out kids like Estrada and Guiterrez for a looksee during this season to see if maybe they're in better shape than they think if they were to trade Qualls.  The thing about all this is that Tim Purpura is telling folks eggszactly what he's doing and what he's looking for... and none of them are listening to him!  They act surprised at this trades and what he targets in the free agent market.

couple of things:

the Phils have been trying to get rid of Burrell for two full seasons

Estrada has been worse than terrible in RR

[Arky Vaughan]

Fascinatingly enough (well, not to you, Coach), but Burrell's career stats compare most closely with those of ... Glenn Davis. That seems rather odd.

[JimR]

With Rowand being a FA this fall, I dont imagine the Phils will be interested in dealing Bourn.   Of course maybe the Phils will re-up with AR for big bucks and be willing to move MB?    I think letting Rowand go and using that money to go after a pitcher are more likely.

they would have traded him in ST because they thought Victorino would be fine in CF. they have 3 options there, not just 2.

[Jacksonian]

Don't count out Victorino.  However, I'm not so sure that Rowand will walk.  The power of the incumbent might come into play here and if the Phillies just feel Bourn can wait one more year and Rowand is a better fit (he hits middle of the lineup), then they'll explore that.  I'm sure they'll want another pitcher, but Charlie Manuel is already telling the organization to stop trying to get them veteran arms if all they get is average to low average guys.  He (Manuel) would rather give youngsters a chance to pitch.  He sees what Hamels has done and he's really pushing that they continue this trend.

Any way, I don't think Rowand leaving Philly is a foregone conclusion.  But the Phillies were smart to hang on to Bourn right now to have insurance just in case Rowand does leave.  They'll have no problems either way.  Trading him now would've given Rowand too much leverage.

You know, I can't help but think that if he puts together a solid August and September offensively, Lane may be in the starting lineup next April.

[Crusher_Joe]

You know, I can't help but think that if he puts together a solid August and September offensively, Lane may be in the starting lineup next April.

Please don't speak of this. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[pravata]

the fucking devil rays turned wheeler around for... oh, wait - never mind....

btw (in anticipation of the coming tidal wave of LCD): luis castillo netted a AA prospect and a hi-A prospect; kenny lofton netted a lo-A prospect; eric gagne netted two marginal prospects and a 17-year old; and octavio dotel netted a recently demoted triple A prospect.

really, only san diego struck gold, turning linebrink into two really good prospects, both of whom are a year or two away at least.

wiggington for wheeler and holding onto lamb and loretta in lieu of dumping them for marginal and/or low-level prospects doesn't look all that awful in that context, if it really looks awful in any context.

Never seen him but the pitcher the Rangers got from the Red Sox sounds interesting.

[pravata]

Please don't speak of this. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

Why? If Jason Lane starts to hit the ball why wouldn't he be a starter?

[JimR]

Why? If Jason Lane starts to hit the ball why wouldn't he be a starter?

exactly. he hit 26 HRs in 2005. if he starts to hit, why wouldn't he play?

[drew corleone]

exactly. he hit 26 HRs in 2005. if he starts to hit, why wouldn't he play?

Best defensive OF on the roster, too.

[MusicMan]

Best defensive OF on the roster, too.

If only POTWA had a "backhanded compliment of the week" subcategory.

[Fredia]

for all the pup had done for this team besides building false hope of trade makes me think he is more full of shit than my daughters boston terrier.

[Noe]

for all the pup had done for this team besides building false hope of trade makes me think he is more full of shit than my daughters boston terrier.

Whaaaa?

[94CougarGrad]

Yahoo Sports blog's trade winners and losers:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Trade-deadline-s-winners-and-losers?urn=mlb,40940

Astros come up in the loss column.

[pravata]

Yahoo Sports blog's trade winners and losers:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/mlb_experts/post/Trade-deadline-s-winners-and-losers?urn=mlb,40940

Astros come up in the loss column.

Jeff Passan is a ninny who is lucky if he's able to spell Astros.

[Kent's Moustache]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Meanwhile, the Rangers take two guys whom they likewise knew would walk at the first opportunity--Tex and Gagne--and turn them (along with throw-in Mahay) into Saltalamacchia, Gabbard, Murphy, and three other prospects, and somebody around here has the gall to poo-poo those deals?

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

[Navin R Johnson]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Meanwhile, the Rangers take two guys whom they likewise knew would walk at the first opportunity--Tex and Gagne--and turn them (along with throw-in Mahay) into Saltalamacchia, Gabbard, Murphy, and three other prospects, and somebody around here has the gall to poo-poo those deals?

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

Who were the Astros offered for Lamb/Loretta/Jennings?   Surely you know that much, if you are going to whine about them not being traded, right?

[otterjb]

So, they both walk this off-season

How do you know that? It seems like if one or both of them were to be re-signed, then keeping them throughout the season would increase those chances and maybe lower the cost. Plus, based on other trades that have been made, the level of prospect that a team would give up for a couple months of Lamb or Loretta would have a very tough time making the majors regardless. Teixeira and Gagne aren't even comparable to Lamb and Loretta.

[Kent's Moustache]

Who were the Astros offered for Lamb/Loretta/Jennings?   Surely you know that much, if you are going to whine about them not being traded, right?

Suck it, Trebek.

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

[Jose Cruz III]

You know, I can't help but think that if he puts together a solid August and September offensively, Lane may be in the starting lineup next April.

I would love nothing more than for Lane to become the man. But just in case he doesn't, I think The Count should have a backup plan.

[Navin R Johnson]

Suck it, Trebek.

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

So who was offered up for Lamb/Loretta/Jennings, that you are upset that they didnt pull the trigger on?

[pravata]

I would love nothing more than for Lane to become the man. But just in case he doesn't, I think The Count should have a backup plan.

Of course they do.  Lane was in AAA for 2 months.  Nonetheless, if Lane begins to hit, which was the original premise, why shouldn't the Astros play him? 

[matadorph]

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

I think perhaps you're misinterpreting his point. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't think he was addressing the wisdom of those trades but rather the realities of the trade market. Given the surprisingly punchless names that came in the deals he mentioned, the Purpura critics should take a step back and reassess the Wheeler deal from that vantage point. We all know there's an epidemic of stupidity that says Purpura must make diamonds out of doodoo, but it's not gonna happen. Of course, until the rampant Chris-Burke-for-Carl-Crawford fantasies over at AD are realized, Tim Purpura is a very fat man who appreciates a good doughnut buffet.

[pravata]

Suck it, Trebek.

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

The Astros had no one of the caliber of Texiera, a year away from FA and a client of Boras.  And Gagne isn't Lidge.  The Astros obtained a player who fit their need, a need that wasnt going to be filled from the minors.  They traded from strength to shore up a weakness.  They traded Ensberg to his home.  It's what the Astros do.  It's one of the reasons players seek them out.  The crass and the foolish will not understand this.  Dont worry, you will have company.

[Froback]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Meanwhile, the Rangers take two guys whom they likewise knew would walk at the first opportunity--Tex and Gagne--and turn them (along with throw-in Mahay) into Saltalamacchia, Gabbard, Murphy, and three other prospects, and somebody around here has the gall to poo-poo those deals?

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

Umm, even IF Lamb and Loretta walk, which I am not sure both will.  They are likely to qualify as at least B class FA, so as long as arbitration is offered, which is reasonable to assume because A) they would be nice to keep and B) there 07 salary isn't so bad that arbitration is going to make them cost more than they are worth.  So even if they lose them to FA they should at least get a draft pick that is worth something.  My guess is Tim knew this, and wasn't offered something more than that for either of them.

As for the Texas trades, I think Texas did a fabulous job.  I think they should be considered the biggest winners of the trade deadline deal makers.

[pravata]

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

Honest to fucking god, there are children that can do this.  Are you people so fucking pathetic that you cant find this information on your own?


"Some of the prospects we've been offered aren't even prospects. They're organizational players. They're guys you have on board to fill out a roster and help develop other players. They're not major league prospects."
http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=103248.0

"A couple of A ball prospects or Double-A guys that replicate what we've already got in our system, I don't feel any pressure or compulsion to do it. No matter how we come out of this, we stiil want to finish strong. I don't feel like I have to move anybody."

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=103215.0

The Astros fielded many offers for infielders Mike Lamb and Mark Loretta,…
"We were really underwhelmed with the kind of players that we were offered," Purpura said. "Basically, they were organizational-type players that weren't going to help us in the future.
"You have a line that you draw as an organization, as far as what's acceptable compensation for a player. Why take on players that you don't project as Major League players? You're just cluttering your organization. We made proposals for better players. We couldn't get anybody to accept those kinds of proposals."
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070731&content_id=2119844&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

You people are pitiful.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Meanwhile, the Rangers take two guys whom they likewise knew would walk at the first opportunity--Tex and Gagne--and turn them (along with throw-in Mahay) into Saltalamacchia, Gabbard, Murphy, and three other prospects, and somebody around here has the gall to poo-poo those deals?

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

Who's knocking the Rangers deals?  My only question is why Saltalamacchia?  They were all goo-goo of Laird.  Did his performance slow down that band-wagon?  Othwerwise, the 2 young pitchers they got from Atlanta were a plus and will definitely bolster the Rangers minor league pitching.  I don't know much about the Gagne trade so any insight you have to offer is appreciated.

Personally, I stated it earlier, I thought Atlanta over-paid for Texeira.  And, I figured Texas was going to flip Saltalamacchia for more pitching.   Looks like they plan on putting him at 1B unless they bump Wilkerson off 1B or Laird at catcher. 

[MusicMan]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Meanwhile, the Rangers take two guys whom they likewise knew would walk at the first opportunity--Tex and Gagne--and turn them (along with throw-in Mahay) into Saltalamacchia, Gabbard, Murphy, and three other prospects, and somebody around here has the gall to poo-poo those deals?

Sorry, but that batch of Kool-Aid is too strong for me to drink.

So much wrong with this post.

1.  Loretta and Lamb will result in draft pick compensation, should they leave after being offered arbitration.  Even a supplemental 1st-rounder should result in more than the "organizational filler" they were offered.

2.  Texeira is not a FA until after next season.

3.  Gagne and Texeira are both much, much better players than anyone the Astros were offering, unless you include "listening to offers for Lidge" under the definition of "offering".

4.  Mahay is no throw-in.  Look what short relievers were bringing in this year - specifically, compare to Linebrink and Wheeler.

5.  Murphy was compared by others to Jason Lane.  I think that's being awfully generous to young David. 

And you still haven't answered the multiple questions of "exactly who was offered for these players that they should have pulled the trigger?"

[JimR]

for all the pup had done for this team besides building false hope of trade makes me think he is more full of shit than my daughters boston terrier.

you know, most of the time i read the nonsense you post and just shake my head. this is not your ordinary nonsense, though, it is stupid. read what you write occasionally.

[JimR]

Suck it, Trebek.

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

answer the question. who were the Astros offered so that not doing a trade was dumb and wrong?

[Kent's Moustache]

I never claimed to know who the Astros were offered for Lamb and Loretta.  Likewise, I never said that not trading them was "dumb and wrong."  Surely, you don't need a straw man, since your arguments are so compelling.

Let's revisit the initial post on this thread, since so many of you seem to have forgotten.

the fucking devil rays turned wheeler around for... oh, wait - never mind....

btw (in anticipation of the coming tidal wave of LCD): luis castillo netted a AA prospect and a hi-A prospect; kenny lofton netted a lo-A prospect; eric gagne netted two marginal prospects and a 17-year old; and octavio dotel netted a recently demoted triple A prospect.

really, only san diego struck gold, turning linebrink into two really good prospects, both of whom are a year or two away at least.

wiggington for wheeler and holding onto lamb and loretta in lieu of dumping them for marginal and/or low-level prospects doesn't look all that awful in that context, if it really looks awful in any context.

The premise is almost entirely disingenuous.  Let's review:

 (a) For starters, I'll agree that the Twins didn't get much for Castillo.  Does anyone honestly believe, however, that either Lamb or Loretta are anywhere comparable, offensively, to Castillo?  Of course not.

 (b) The Rangers got catching prospect Max Ramirez for Lofton.  For those of you scoring at home, Ramirez is as good a catching prospect as there is on the Astros' entire farm, excepting maybe Towles.

 (c) The claim that Gagne fetched only "two marginal prospects and a 17-year-old" is laughable.  Kason Gabbard will slide right into the Rangers rotation.  Who here would rather have Wandy than Gabbard?  David Murphy is a questionable CF prospect for an organization looking for CF options.  Sound familiar?  And, Engel Beltre is just a 17-year-old.  Right.

 (d) For Dotel, the Braves got Kyle Davies, whom the poster identified as a "recently demoted AAA prospect."  So, are we pretending that Davies is not at least as good a pitching prospect as anyone currently in Round Rock or Corpus?

 (e) The Padres turned Linebrink into Will Inman, Steve Garrison, and Joe Thatcher.  That's a AAA pitcher, a AA pitcher, and a High-A pitcher.  All for one aging middle reliever.

Despite all the above-listed consideration flying around at the deadline, I guess that no one was willing to deal fairly with the Astros' front office.

Whatever gets you by.

[JimR]

I never claimed to know who the Astros were offered for Lamb and Loretta.  Likewise, I never said that not trading them was "dumb and wrong."  Surely, you don't need a straw man, since your arguments are so compelling.

Let's revisit the initial post on this thread, since so many of you seem to have forgotten.

the fucking devil rays turned wheeler around for... oh, wait - never mind....

btw (in anticipation of the coming tidal wave of LCD): luis castillo netted a AA prospect and a hi-A prospect; kenny lofton netted a lo-A prospect; eric gagne netted two marginal prospects and a 17-year old; and octavio dotel netted a recently demoted triple A prospect.

really, only san diego struck gold, turning linebrink into two really good prospects, both of whom are a year or two away at least.

wiggington for wheeler and holding onto lamb and loretta in lieu of dumping them for marginal and/or low-level prospects doesn't look all that awful in that context, if it really looks awful in any context.

The premise is almost entirely disingenuous.  Let's review:

 (a) For starters, I'll agree that the Twins didn't get much for Castillo.  Does anyone honestly believe, however, that either Lamb or Loretta are anywhere comparable, offensively, to Castillo?  Of course not.

 (b) The Rangers got catching prospect Max Ramirez for Lofton.  For those of you scoring at home, Ramirez is as good a catching prospect as there is on the Astros' entire farm, excepting maybe Towles.

 (c) The claim that Gagne fetched only "two marginal prospects and a 17-year-old" is laughable.  Kason Gabbard will slide right into the Rangers rotation.  Who here would rather have Wandy than Gabbard?  David Murphy is a questionable CF prospect for an organization looking for CF options.  Sound familiar?  And, Engel Beltre is just a 17-year-old.  Right.

 (d) For Dotel, the Braves got Kyle Davies, whom the poster identified as a "recently demoted AAA prospect."  So, are we pretending that Davies is not at least as good a pitching prospect as anyone currently in Round Rock or Corpus?

 (e) The Padres turned Linebrink into Will Inman, Steve Garrison, and Joe Thatcher.  That's a AAA pitcher, a AA pitcher, and a High-A pitcher.  All for one aging middle reliever.

Despite all the above-listed consideration flying around at the deadline, I guess that no one was willing to deal fairly with the Astros' front office.

Whatever gets you by.

so, is your razor-sharp attack aimed at the poster or at the front office? i am not defending the poster at all. i happen to think that Purpura has a good plan and was very close to getting a significant piece of it done.

[MusicMan]

(b) The Rangers got catching prospect Max Ramirez for Lofton.  For those of you scoring at home, Ramirez is as good a catching prospect as there is on the Astros' entire farm, excepting maybe Towles.

Wow... this is so, so, so very wrong.

There are very few who believe that Ramirez will stick at catcher.  (Shoot, more people probably believe Max Sapp will remain a catcher, and I think he just ate Miguel Cabrera.)

One description of him was "Ryan Garko, without the power."

And even if he were none of the above... he still wouldn't meet the team's stated critera of players who can help now or in the near future.

[Ty in Tampa]

So you think Purpura had all of those opportunities at his avail and passed on them? This is just as 'disingenuous' as you claim the original post to be.

[pravata]

I never claimed to know who the Astros were offered for Lamb and Loretta.  ...

Let's cut this short.  You don't know anything about what the Astros were offered for anybody, nor what they offered for other players.  Period.  There is a fatal flaw in all of your examples, none of those guys, nor anything like those guys, were on the Astros.  We do know this, "We were really underwhelmed with the kind of players that we were offered," Purpura said.  And "Why take on players that you don't project as Major League players? You're just cluttering your organization."

[Duman]

Wow... this is so, so, so very wrong.

There are very few who believe that Ramirez will stick at catcher.  (Shoot, more people probably believe Max Sapp will remain a catcher, and I think he just ate Miguel Cabrera.)

One description of him was "Ryan Garko, without the power."

And even if he were none of the above... he still wouldn't meet the team's stated critera of players who can help now or in the near future.

Yet I wonder about a kid that young who has gone from Braves to Indians to Rangers.  If he is so great, why not hold on to him?  I am not sure Kenny Lofton is worth all that.

[MusicMan]

Yet I wonder about a kid that young who has gone from Braves to Indians to Rangers.  If he is so great, why not hold on to him?  I am not sure Kenny Lofton is worth all that.

In fairness, you're looking at the Braves and Indians, who are 2 of the stongest organizations in the majors when it comes to catchers (Martinez/Shoppach, McCann/Salty at the time).

[JGrave]

Let's cut this short.  You don't know anything about what the Astros were offered for anybody, nor what they offered for other players.  Period.  There is a fatal flaw in all of your examples, none of those guys, nor anything like those guys, were on the Astros.  We do know this, "We were really underwhelmed with the kind of players that we were offered," Purpura said.  And "Why take on players that you don't project as Major League players? You're just cluttering your organization."

After his meeting with the media when Purpura said this, Rich Lord had the nerve to say, "I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't offered some AAA or AA prospects for either Lamb or Loretta."  Insinuating almost that Purpura is failing the organization on purpose.  It's foolish for any of us to believe that we know what he was offered for any of his guys.  If he says he wasn't offered anyone of value, he wasn't.  Trading just to trade isn't the answer. 

[MusicMan]

Purpura damn near called the 790 guys drooling idiots this morning.  They disputed his $97M payroll figure, claiming they read it was $87M, and he told them that they were forgetting little things like Bagwell's $7M.  If you could have heard his voice... it was clear he's sick of dealing with these clowns.

[Arky Vaughan]

I really don't see how Houston is supposed to be better for finishing the season with Lamb and Loretta in Astros uniforms.  So, they both walk this off-season, leaving the Astros with nothing to show for them except the '07 team photo, and that's somehow a good thing?

Are they both going to walk? And if the Astros offer them arbitration, and they walk anyway, doesn't that mean the Astros get compensation picks for them? Maybe what was being offered didn't look any better to Purpura than what he might get through draft picks.

[Arky Vaughan]

The initial post on this thread lauded the Astros for not making any deals and scoffed at deals made by other teams.  That seems awfully cavalier for an organization that's 14 games under .500 and with not much hope for short-term help from within its own minor league ranks.

Are you implying that Loretta and Lamb would have brought a return that would have restocked the farm-system with short-term help?

[Arky Vaughan]

The Astros had no one of the caliber of Texiera, a year away from FA and a client of Boras.

Indeed, a hallmark difference between the Astros and Rangers is that when the Astros raised a player of the caliber of Teixeira in their own system (Berkman), they locked him up long-term.

[MikeyBoy]

Are you implying that Loretta and Lamb would have brought a return that would have restocked the farm-system with short-term help?

They're rent-a-role players for crying out loud, not players that teams are willing to sell the farm for.

[WulawHorn]

So much wrong with this post.

1.  Loretta and Lamb will result in draft pick compensation, should they leave after being offered arbitration.  Even a supplemental 1st-rounder should result in more than the "organizational filler" they were offered.

2.  Texeira is not a FA until after next season.

3.  Gagne and Texeira are both much, much better players than anyone the Astros were offering, unless you include "listening to offers for Lidge" under the definition of "offering".

4.  Mahay is no throw-in.  Look what short relievers were bringing in this year - specifically, compare to Linebrink and Wheeler.

5.  Murphy was compared by others to Jason Lane.  I think that's being awfully generous to young David. 

And you still haven't answered the multiple questions of "exactly who was offered for these players that they should have pulled the trigger?"

POTW content wise. I don't know if that is what POTW is about, but you hit the nail directly on the head on every single point.

[Arky Vaughan]

so, is your razor-sharp attack aimed at the poster or at the front office? i am not defending the poster at all. i happen to think that Purpura has a good plan and was very close to getting a significant piece of it done.

Indeed, while Purpura is often criticized as risk-averse, the one thing he didn't do was go into public-lynching-induced panic mode and move Qualls, Lidge, Jennings, Lamb, Loretta, et al. for whatever crapulence he could get in return. The deal he made with Wheeler at least purports to fill an organizational need over the next two years with a player who, while not exactly inspiring, has turned in a pretty consistent performance in recent seasons.

[Jacksonian]

Are they both going to walk? And if the Astros offer them arbitration, and they walk anyway, doesn't that mean the Astros get compensation picks for them? Maybe what was being offered didn't look any better to Purpura than what he might get through draft picks.

If they both walk and are both offered arb and are both type A, worst case is the Astros get 4 of about the top 80 players available in the draft.  Best case, 4 of the top 40 or so.  Not including their own #1 assuming they get to keep it.  If 08 is a deep draft they could end up with serious talent in the lower levels.

[pravata]

They're rent-a-role players for crying out loud, not players that teams are willing to sell the farm for.

It's what Purpura has been saying, specifically and theoretically for the past month.  If people don't get this by now, they are mentally challenged.

[MikeyBoy]

If they both walk and are both offered arb and are both type A, worst case is the Astros get 4 of about the top 80 players available in the draft.  Best case, 4 of the top 40 or so.  Not including their own #1 assuming they get to keep it.  If 08 is a deep draft they could end up with serious talent in the lower levels.

This info should be broadcasted through a PA system from a vehicle driving up and down the streets of Houston.

[Navin R Johnson]

This is one downside to success, which the Astros have had a lot in the last decade.   

Many "fans," now assume that fielding a playoff team is as easy as putting on their adult diapers.    When the team isn’t performing up to their expectations, then someone (not something) has to be the problem, things like injuries, players having off seasons, or other teams playing better are not valid reasons….for the sect of fans that get more excited over the Goya Can Shuffle Contest on the Jumbotron, than the actual game on the field.     

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWzTwHdwc8

Logic and common sense be damned.   If the Astros aren’t in the running for the playoffs, then there has to be a scapegoat.   With AE injured, the slack jawed mob of   rubes have turned their ire to Tim P.   And like flies drawn to horseshit, they have swarmed the Chronicle Blogs, Sports Radio and message board posts declaring that Timmy P is teh suck.

 

[pravata]

After his meeting with the media when Purpura said this, Rich Lord had the nerve to say, "I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't offered some AAA or AA prospects for either Lamb or Loretta."  Insinuating almost that Purpura is failing the organization on purpose.  It's foolish for any of us to believe that we know what he was offered for any of his guys.  If he says he wasn't offered anyone of value, he wasn't.  Trading just to trade isn't the answer. 

At least they challenged him in person instead of whining and sneering behind his back.  Saying that Purpura turned down an offer that could have helped the team is an insult.  "I find it very hard to believe..." is an intellectually bankrupt phrase.

[Navin R Johnson]

I think Rich said that on his show, not to Tim's face.   

[pravata]

I think Rich said that on his show, not to Tim's face.   

That would be typical.

[JGrave]

That would be typical.

And they've taken to calling him "Poopoora."

[Arky Vaughan]

Purpura damn near called the 790 guys drooling idiots this morning.  They disputed his $97M payroll figure, claiming they read it was $87M, and he told them that they were forgetting little things like Bagwell's $7M.  If you could have heard his voice... it was clear he's sick of dealing with these clowns.

I was listening to 790 this morning and finally had enough of this. One of them was contending that counting Bagwell's $7 million in the payroll was akin to "pulling the wool over the fan's eyes," because that money wasn't going to players currently on the field. They were going on and on about what fans were sick of.

I finally couldn't stand it any more, called in and told them that what I was sick of as a fan was hearing talk radio hosts and callers bitch and whine about the team and Purpura. I said of course Bagwell's $7 million counted toward the payroll, it's what they paid them man to sign a contract to play for the team. I also pointed out that maybe Purpura didn't think any of the players offered for Lamb and Loretta were any better than what Purpura thought he could get for draft picks if they walk after the season.

The response was that Purpura couldn't know that because the draft is so far away. What? Purpura doesn't have a feel for what he can get in the draft vs. what he was offered over the last few days? That strikes me as ludicrous. They also replied that complaining about the team is a God-given right.

[Ty in Tampa]

They also replied that complaining about the team is a God-given right.

This, unfortunately, is true. You have a god-given right to not listen, as well.

[Astroholic]

I was listening to 790 this morning and finally had enough of this. One of them was contending that counting Bagwell's $7 million in the payroll was akin to "pulling the wool over the fan's eyes," because that money wasn't going to players currently on the field. They were going on and on about what fans were sick of.

I finally couldn't stand it any more, called in and told them that what I was sick of as a fan was hearing talk radio hosts and callers bitch and whine about the team and Purpura. I said of course Bagwell's $7 million counted toward the payroll, it's what they paid them man to sign a contract to play for the team. I also pointed out that maybe Purpura didn't think any of the players offered for Lamb and Loretta were any better than what Purpura thought he could get for draft picks if they walk after the season.

The response was that Purpura couldn't know that because the draft is so far away. What? Purpura doesn't have a feel for what he can get in the draft vs. what he was offered over the last few days? That strikes me as ludicrous. They also replied that complaining about the team is a God-given right.

Thank you for calling in and checking these clowns, not that it did any good.  I was driving home from work last night while listening to (fill in the blank) yammering on about how bad things were with the stros, Timmy p, etc.  610,790, even on the 93.7 sports flash.  All I can say is thank goodness for the IPOD.

[JGrave]

I was listening to 790 this morning and finally had enough of this. One of them was contending that counting Bagwell's $7 million in the payroll was akin to "pulling the wool over the fan's eyes," because that money wasn't going to players currently on the field.

I'd be willing to bet my paycheck that at the time Bagwell signed that deal, these idiots were saying since so much of the money was backloaded, they should've been spending the money then. 

[chuck]

This, unfortunately, is true. You have a god-given right to not listen, as well.

That's a right I exercise on a daily basis.

[matadorph]

790 is a gimmick, right. There's no possible way anyone could seriously believe the crap that spills out of those mouths. One of those clowns, Lopez perhaps, just slammed the Astros by drawing a comparison to the Rangers:

"Would the Astros have traded Teixeira or Gagne? No, because they fall in love with their players."

Hey Uncle Drayton, you're a stooge! Why didn't you trade Berkman and Oswalt when you had the chance?

My oh my. It takes special talent to be that stupid.

[Astroholic]

790 is a gimmick, right. There's no possible way anyone could seriously believe the crap that spills out of those mouths. One of those clowns, Lopez perhaps, just slammed the Astros by drawing a comparison to the Rangers:

"Would the Astros have traded Teixeira or Gagne? No, because they fall in love with their players."

Hey Uncle Drayton, you're a stooge! Why didn't you trade Berkman and Oswalt when you had the chance?

My oh my. It takes special talent to be that stupid.

You mean the same Lopez that gave Jimmy D. a vote for the Hall of Fame.  Much like jesus (the sniveler not the Savior), I can't stand to read him, much less listen to him.

[Taras Bulba]

I avoid local sports shows due to the idiot factor.  I listen to XM, however, it's not that much of an upgrade and find the lack of insight delivered by their mlb channel notable.  Nothing to get excited about on TV or radio either over at ESPN.  Try to find a reputable print writer like Molony or Footer and otherwise spend your time watching the game and listening to Brown and JD.

The best sports show that I listen to now on an off and on basis is Peter Kessler on the XM golf channel.  

Now, go out there and hit somebody.

[pravata]

790 is a gimmick, right. There's no possible way anyone could seriously believe the crap that spills out of those mouths. One of those clowns, Lopez perhaps, just slammed the Astros by drawing a comparison to the Rangers:

"Would the Astros have traded Teixeira or Gagne? No, because they fall in love with their players."

Hey Uncle Drayton, you're a stooge! Why didn't you trade Berkman and Oswalt when you had the chance?

My oh my. It takes special talent to be that stupid.

HPFRic brought us the phrase "mongoloids of the midday".  How long the Rangers had Gagne?  33.1 innings.  Falling in love?  That's first date territory there. 
 

[94CougarGrad]

Jeff Passan is a ninny who is lucky if he's able to spell Astros.

I thought so, but in the interest of keeping conversation going, I guess... or somesuch bullshit reply like that...

[dirty steve]

You mean the same Lopez that gave Jimmy D. a vote for the Hall of Fame.  Much like jesus (the sniveler not the Savior), I can't stand to read him, much less listen to him.

i dont spend enough time in the car to warrant a satellite subscription, but it is a joke that I have to decide between Rome and 790 on the way in to work.  i can honestly say the only show i can stomach is CP in the afternoon, and even then i have to tune out his Astros farm system rants about Zobrist, Jonny Ash, Towles, etc. (i.e.: this guy has to be up here by this time).
both morning shows are unlistenable. craig roberts is solid but he just started and somehow only has an hour long show but the program director actually gave lopez/deluca an EXTRA hour to fill in the 11-12 void.

[matadorph]

The mongoloids moniker is apt. This is the first time I've ever heard this show, so you'll have to forgive me for taking photos of the accident scene.

Right now they're riffing on a hypothetical about how the Astros could've traded for Saltalamacchi, Gabbard, and a bunch of other prospects if they'd only been willing to trade Brad Lidge and Carlos Lee.

[JimR]

I was listening to 790 this morning and finally had enough of this. One of them was contending that counting Bagwell's $7 million in the payroll was akin to "pulling the wool over the fan's eyes," because that money wasn't going to players currently on the field. They were going on and on about what fans were sick of.

I finally couldn't stand it any more, called in and told them that what I was sick of as a fan was hearing talk radio hosts and callers bitch and whine about the team and Purpura. I said of course Bagwell's $7 million counted toward the payroll, it's what they paid them man to sign a contract to play for the team. I also pointed out that maybe Purpura didn't think any of the players offered for Lamb and Loretta were any better than what Purpura thought he could get for draft picks if they walk after the season.

The response was that Purpura couldn't know that because the draft is so far away. What? Purpura doesn't have a feel for what he can get in the draft vs. what he was offered over the last few days? That strikes me as ludicrous. They also replied that complaining about the team is a God-given right.

attaboy. glad you did this.

[Noe]

After his meeting with the media when Purpura said this, Rich Lord had the nerve to say, "I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't offered some AAA or AA prospects for either Lamb or Loretta."

Another reason for such a stupid comment is that some of these jokers do not even begin to know what a "prospect" really is.  For instance, Travis Driskill is in AAA and is having a pretty good year.  He made the AAA All-Star game (PCL vs. IL).  If there is one, just one single solitary GM out there who would listen to me when I said "I'll give you my AAA prospect Travis Driskill....", I'd be shocked.  And then quickly make the deal because Driskill is not... repeat *NOT* a prospect.  He's a guy in AAA having a good season.  But he is so far removed from "prospect" status, it isn't even funny.  He is eggszactly what Purpura said he was being offered, roster filler guys for the minor leagues.  But I would bet you cash money that Rich Lord wouldn't know that distinction and suffice it to say most bloggers/radio talk show callers either.

Why Purpura even bothers to clarify for them is beyond me, it goes right over their heads because unless Purpura draws them a picture and says "this is a prospect... say it with me... Praaaaah... speeeeect... good.  Now this is not a prospect... repeat it now.... nooooot aaaaa praaaaah speeeect.  Fine.  Now what is this?  Yes, praaaaah speeeeect.  And this?  Correct.  Nooooot aaaaa praaaah speeeeect!", they are not going to get it.

Screw it, Purpura should just hire Carlos Mencia to hold regular semiars around town to teach folks this stuff.  "Bood lie"

[JGrave]

I listen to Mike & Mike in the morning and then I switch back and forth between CP and the afternoon show on 610.  Matt Jackson is pretty good with his football and Rockets coverage.  All Houston sportstalk seems to be very challenged when it comes to baseball though.  All Houston media for that matter.

[Noe]

The mongoloids moniker is apt. This is the first time I've ever heard this show, so you'll have to forgive me for taking photos of the accident scene.

Right now they're riffing on a hypothetical about how the Astros could've traded for Saltalamacchi, Gabbard, and a bunch of other prospects if they'd only been willing to trade Brad Lidge and Carlos Lee.

Lee = no trade clause.

[Duman]

In fairness, you're looking at the Braves and Indians, who are 2 of the stongest organizations in the majors when it comes to catchers (Martinez/Shoppach, McCann/Salty at the time).

If the Indians were so stacked at Catcher, why trade for him in the first place?

[JimR]

Another reason for such a stupid comment is that some of these jokers do not even begin to know what a "prospect" really is.  For instance, Travis Driskill is in AAA and is having a pretty good year.  He made the AAA All-Star game (PCL vs. IL).  If there is one, just one single solitary GM out there who would listen to me when I said "I'll give you my AAA prospect Travis Driskill....", I'd be shocked.  And then quickly make the deal because Driskill is not... repeat *NOT* a prospect.  He's a guy in AAA having a good season.  But he is so far removed from "prospect" status, it isn't even funny.  But I would bet you cash money that Rich Lord wouldn't know that distinction and suffice it to say most bloggers/radio talk show callers either.

What Purpura even bothers to clarify for them goes right over their heads because unless Purpura draws them a picture and says "this is a prospect... say it with me... Praaaaah... speeeeect... good.  Now this is not a prospect... repeat it now.... nooooot aaaaa praaaaah speeeect.  Fine.  Now what is this?  Yes, praaaaah speeeeect.  And this?  Correct.  Nooooot aaaaa praaaah speeeeect!".

Screw it, Purpura should just hire Carlos Mencia to hold regular semiars around town to teach folks this stuff.  "Bood lie"

look up "journeyman pitcher" in the dictionary. that's Driskill's picture.

[Noe]

look up "journeyman pitcher" in the dictionary. that's Driskill's picture.

Imagine Purpura saying he landed Scott Linebrink by offering a package of Driskill and Randolph.  Fans and media would complain that we traded *TWO* prospects for a middle reliever!

[MikeyBoy]

All Houston sportstalk seems to be very challenged when it comes to baseball though.  All Houston media for that matter.

Truer words have never been spoken. Literally.

[matadorph]

Lee = no trade clause.

What makes it even better is that they actually mentioned it, but still felt the need to speculate otherwise as if it didn't exist.

[Ty in Tampa]

Why Purpura even bothers to clarify for them is beyond me, it goes right over their heads because unless Purpura draws them a picture and says "this is a prospect... say it with me... Praaaaah... speeeeect... good.  Now this is not a prospect... repeat it now.... nooooot aaaaa praaaaah speeeect.  Fine.  Now what is this?  Yes, praaaaah speeeeect.  And this?  Correct.  Nooooot aaaaa praaaah speeeeect!", they are not going to get it.

It's not that they don't get it, they don't want to get it. Bitching is what those clowns are all about. If guys like Arky are listening and become outraged enough to call in, there's more shit they can bitch about. It's what makes ratings and we know what that makes. Purpura does it because he has to and the best thing we can do is not listen.

[JGrave]

It's not that they don't get it, they don't want to get it. Bitching is what those clowns are all about. If guys like Arky are listening and become outraged enough to call in, there's more shit they can bitch about. It's what makes ratings and we know what that makes. Purpura does it because he has to and the best thing we can do is not listen.

The problem with not listening is that you'll miss the interviews.  I enjoy the player/manager/FO interviews. 

[Ty in Tampa]

The problem with not listening is that you'll miss the interviews.  I enjoy the player/manager/FO interviews. 

I'll sacrifice that. You can always get the information you want/need. Pravata proves that every day.

[Arky Vaughan]

It's not that they don't get it, they don't want to get it. Bitching is what those clowns are all about. If guys like Arky are listening and become outraged enough to call in, there's more shit they can bitch about. It's what makes ratings and we know what that makes. Purpura does it because he has to and the best thing we can do is not listen.

I usually just listen to my iPod on the way to work, but I haven't gotten around to synching my favorite Podcasts lately, so I took what was available on AM. It's kind of like when there's free food left over after a meeting at the office. If it's 4:30 and you're hungry enough, you'll eat the last pickle and two olives left on the sandwich tray from five hours earlier. I suppose my other options were listening to political talk on AM, listening to music on FM or even silence, which would be far more enlightening than what I did hear. I guess it was a form of rubbernecking.

[pravata]

I'll sacrifice that. You can always get the information you want/need. Pravata proves that every day.

We got lots of people bringing good information every day.  I think some people ignore what's right in front of them.  For instance, Purpura did exactly what he said he would do about trades.  There is no reason to be surprised.  All we had to do was read what he said.

[MusicMan]

All we had to do was read what he said.

All people had to do was believe what he said.  There seems to be a disconnect there.

[Arky Vaughan]

We got lots of people bringing good information every day.  I think some people ignore what's right in front of them.  For instance, Purpura did exactly what he said he would do about trades.  There is no reason to be surprised.  All we had to do was read what he said.

Now you know good and well that Purpura was lying before hand about what he set out to do, and he was lying afterward when he said that he got no good offers.

[pravata]

All people had to do was believe what he said.  There seems to be a disconnect there.

A couple dozen synapses seem to be disconnected.

[Arky Vaughan]

A couple dozen synapses seem to be disconnected.

For the talk radio crowd, they're dangling wildly about like the tentacles of a jellyfish.

[kevwun]

I think 1560 is going to skull fuck 610 and 790 in the ratings department when they go live.

[94CougarGrad]

Attaboy, Arky! Bravo.

I was listening to 790 this morning and finally had enough of this. One of them was contending that counting Bagwell's $7 million in the payroll was akin to "pulling the wool over the fan's eyes," because that money wasn't going to players currently on the field. They were going on and on about what fans were sick of.

I finally couldn't stand it any more, called in and told them that what I was sick of as a fan was hearing talk radio hosts and callers bitch and whine about the team and Purpura. I said of course Bagwell's $7 million counted toward the payroll, it's what they paid them man to sign a contract to play for the team. I also pointed out that maybe Purpura didn't think any of the players offered for Lamb and Loretta were any better than what Purpura thought he could get for draft picks if they walk after the season.

The response was that Purpura couldn't know that because the draft is so far away. What? Purpura doesn't have a feel for what he can get in the draft vs. what he was offered over the last few days? That strikes me as ludicrous. They also replied that complaining about the team is a God-given right.

[MusicMan]

I think 1560 is going to skull fuck 610 and 790 in the ratings department when they go live.

What, 0.2 to 0.1?

There's a minimal sports-radio market in Houston, and it's split 4 ways, and they're doing everything possible to drive off listeners.  What a business model.

[JGrave]

Purpura is going to be on 610 this afternoon.  The afternoon crew says they are going to ask him the tough questions.

[Navin R Johnson]

Purpura is going to be on 610 this afternoon.  The afternoon crew says they are going to ask him the tough questions.

Like...

How hard is it to keep from strangling 99% of the Houston media?

[Astroholic]

Purpura is going to be on 610 this afternoon.  The afternoon crew says they are going to ask him the tough questions.

Thanks for the warning.

[pravata]

Purpura is going to be on 610 this afternoon.  The afternoon crew says they are going to ask him the tough questions.

Such as "how do you feel about not making a big trade?"  "Some say that your predecessor would have made a big trade, how does that make you feel?"  Those worms wouldn't know a tough question if it kicked them in the nuts.

[MikeyBoy]

Do worms actually have nuts? They are hermaphrodites, so maybe.

[pravata]

Do worms actually have nuts? They are hermaphrodites, so maybe.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, they have worm nuts.

[kevwun]

1 for sure and probably 2 of the 4 stations will not be sports talk radio within 2 years.  As you said, the market is small.  1560 is going to have a good lineup.  I expect 610 to be one of the ones that goes away.  790 needs someone in addition to Charlie because right now he's the only guy that is even remotely tolerable.

[Limey]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, they have worm nuts.

...for brains.

[pravata]

1 for sure and probably 2 of the 4 stations will not be sports talk radio within 2 years.  As you said, the market is small.  1560 is going to have a good lineup.  I expect 610 to be one of the ones that goes away.  790 needs someone in addition to Charlie because right now he's the only guy that is even remotely tolerable.

Palillo can't talk until Ben Zobrist has a higher BA than Adam Everett.

[Astroholic]

Palillo can't talk until Ben Zobrist has a higher BA than Adam Everett.

Someone needs to tell him that.  I think he would make out with Pence!!!! while smelling VY's balls (NTTAWWT) if given the chance. 

[JGrave]

Anyone interested in my notes?

[Astroholic]

Anyone interested in my notes?

Sure.

[pravata]

WXYZ in DETROIT has better handle on the Astros situation that the local nutless worms,

Purpura had the chance to deal infielders Mark Loretta and Mike Lamb, but did not the pull the trigger on any deals. I don't blame Purpura for this one because he wasn't offered anything great in exchange for his veteran infielders. Both Lamb and Loretta are free agents after this season.

At least the ballclub didn't make a head-scratching move like it did before the trade deadline in 1998, when Freddie Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama were sent to the Seattle Mariners for Randy Johnson. The Big Unit offered very little in his days as an Astro, while Garcia and Guillen emerged as top-notch players in the future.

Houston did pull some strings over the weekend by adding third baseman Ty Wigginton from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for right-handed pitcher Dan Wheeler. Wigginton is a nice piece to the puzzle,
http://www.wxyz.com/sports/mlb/story.aspx?content_id=e5b748c2-bb84-4cbf-aaf6-542cf50d0697

[Navin R Johnson]

WXYZ in DETROIT has better handle on the Astros situation that the local nutless worms,

Purpura had the chance to deal infielders Mark Loretta and Mike Lamb, but did not the pull the trigger on any deals. I don't blame Purpura for this one because he wasn't offered anything great in exchange for his veteran infielders. Both Lamb and Loretta are free agents after this season.

At least the ballclub didn't make a head-scratching move like it did before the trade deadline in 1998, when Freddie Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama were sent to the Seattle Mariners for Randy Johnson. The Big Unit offered very little in his days as an Astro, while Garcia and Guillen emerged as top-notch players in the future.

Houston did pull some strings over the weekend by adding third baseman Ty Wigginton from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for right-handed pitcher Dan Wheeler. Wigginton is a nice piece to the puzzle,
http://www.wxyz.com/sports/mlb/story.aspx?content_id=e5b748c2-bb84-4cbf-aaf6-542cf50d0697

How does a guy in Detroit get better info on the Astros then our local paper?   Disagree on the RJ comment though, I would still make that deal.

[Astroholic]

How does a guy in Detroit get better info on the Astros then our local paper?

I thought RJ offered a lot the Houston in the short time he was here.

[dirty steve]

WXYZ in DETROIT has better handle on the Astros situation that the local nutless worms,

Purpura had the chance to deal infielders Mark Loretta and Mike Lamb, but did not the pull the trigger on any deals. I don't blame Purpura for this one because he wasn't offered anything great in exchange for his veteran infielders. Both Lamb and Loretta are free agents after this season.

At least the ballclub didn't make a head-scratching move like it did before the trade deadline in 1998, when Freddie Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama were sent to the Seattle Mariners for Randy Johnson. The Big Unit offered very little in his days as an Astro, while Garcia and Guillen emerged as top-notch players in the future.

Houston did pull some strings over the weekend by adding third baseman Ty Wigginton from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for right-handed pitcher Dan Wheeler. Wigginton is a nice piece to the puzzle,
http://www.wxyz.com/sports/mlb/story.aspx?content_id=e5b748c2-bb84-4cbf-aaf6-542cf50d0697

do they mean that he offered very little as far as time he was an Astro, or his actual contributions?  10-1 with a 1.28 ERA and .98 WHIP are somewhat substantial to me.

[Andyzipp]

How does a guy in Detroit get better info on the Astros then our local paper?   Disagree on the RJ comment though, I would still make that deal.

That was written by Randy Smith.

[austro]

Nice to see the lack of hysteria, but this:

The Big Unit offered very little in his days as an Astro

is just wrong.  Johnson was awesome as an Astro.  The problem is that he was only an Astro for two months.

[pravata]

How does a guy in Detroit get better info on the Astros then our local paper?   Disagree on the RJ comment though, I would still make that deal.

Yeah me too.  First time I felt like the Astros were playing with the Big Boys.  Purpura said yesterday that the days of those types of trades, everywhere in the league, are over.  He had a good riddance tone in his voice too.  He said that teams value their young players more.  He may have been projecting.

[MusicMan]

A certain amount of brain damage is required to get any job in sports journalism.  It's all a matter of degree.

[pravata]

do they mean that he offered very little as far as time he was an Astro, or his actual contributions?  10-1 with a 1.28 ERA and .98 WHIP are somewhat substantial to me.

I'm cutting the guy some slack.  He realizes that Wigginton is only a "piece of the puzzle" and not the savior of the Astros.  That sentence has more insight than  everything that has been written in the Chronicle for the past week. (substitute arbitrary longer time interval, including geological increments.)

[Jacksonian]

I'm cutting the guy some slack.  He realizes that Wigginton is only a "piece of the puzzle" and not the savior of the Astros.  That sentence has more insight than  everything that has been written in the Chronicle for the past week. (substitute arbitrary longer time interval, including geological increments.)

I didn't see an author attributed, just Sports Network.  Is that common?

[pravata]

I didn't see an author attributed, just Sports Network.  Is that common?

I couldn't find the author either.  I've not noticed "Sports Network" as the author before.  That I remember. 

[JGrave]

Asked about the trading deadline and their deals:

He feels that Wiggington is a real nice piece to the puzzle.  He's a tough, hard-nosed player with power.  Exactly what they wanted Ensberg to be.  Wheeler was tough to lose but they needed to make changes and he was the commodity that they had to offer.  He's happy they were able to work out a deal for Ensberg to go to SD.

Is he happy with what they accomplished?

There is more yet to do.  This was the beginning stages of their plan.  He wishes they could've done more but a lot of it is out of his control (meaning it takes two to trade).

Why isn't it like the 90s when big names are getting traded?

The talent supply is small and it costs a lot of money to scout and develop players.  Average clubs spend 15 to 20 million on develop, scouting and signing bonus.  It's a huge investment and a large percentage of their operating costs and when you have that kind of investment, it doesn't make sense to trade 2 to 3 of those guys you spend money on for a two or three month rental.  Plus, clubs are just unwilling to give up prospects.

Do they hold on to players too long?

Understands criticism but walk a mile in his shoes.  They are a team that goes after big name FAs.  Sometimes you have to have lower end salary players.  That means you keep guys you have under club control because they make the minimum.  He has to balance the payroll.  Can't spend $150 mil on payroll all on FAs.  Supply & demand is the other part.  They did look at the trade market for a 3B but there was no market.  Ensberg was 4th in MVP voting just two years ago.  Was he supposed to scrap him after the first slump he had?  Lane is a similar story.  He hit 26 homers.  They can't add $10 mil every year on FAs.  

Why is Lane playing?

Pence is hurt & Everett is hurt (Bruntlett at SS) so Lane has to play CF.  Won't bring up Anderson because it's too soon and he's not ready.  Burke cannot play CF.  That didn't work so Lane plays.  Is it perfect?  No but they have to wait on Hunter's health to improve.  

Chris Burke?

Wants to see him get ABs but Biggio is playing too.  Burke can't play CF so he'll have to play on Biggio offdays until Biggio retires.

Jennings?

Going to take a wait & see approach.  Spoke w/Jason at length after Sunday and he was very apologetic an embarassed.  Jason never felt like he got a rhythm or out of Spring Training mode.  They'll make a decision at end of season.

Payroll?

Feels they'll have plenty of flexibility to help the starting pitching.  Hasn't thought about extension for Loretta.  Will have to talk to Mark.  Mark wants to be a starter but he is very valuable in the role that he plays for the Astros right now but Mark has the power in the end.

Job security?

He's not concerned.  Feels his reputation in the baseball community is known and speaks for itself.  He won't look over his shoulder because that is when you're not doing your job.  He loves the organization and they are well-respected in baseball as a great organization.  Players love playing here.  They've apologized to him for their performances, or lack thereof.  He believes in what they are doing.  

[dirty steve]

was this on a local  (Houston) talk station?

[MusicMan]

Rich Lord, playing the part of the Cowardly Lion, came back from the break stating that he was "not satisfied" with Purpura's answers on playing time for Lane an Burke.

[JGrave]

was this on a local  (Houston) talk station?

Yes, 610 AM.

[dirty steve]

Rich Lord, playing the part of the Cowardly Lion, came back from the break stating that he was "not satisfied" with Purpura's answers on playing time for Lane and Burke.

so what--he still isnt satisfied that the Texans didnt take VY last year.  no matter what Purp said he wouldnt have satisfied.  why didnt he said what he thought to Purp straight up instead of waiting until the next segment?

[dirty steve]

matt jackson carried that stupid celebrity b'days segment over to the afternoon.  dont know what i would have done if i didnt know it was dom deluise's and collio's birthday.

[Navin R Johnson]

why didnt he said what he thought to Purp straight up instead of waiting until the next segment?

Because he is a huge fat stinky vagina.   Wish he'd get douched back to Ohio or New York.

[Arky Vaughan]

Rich Lord, playing the part of the Cowardly Lion, came back from the break stating that he was "not satisfied" with Purpura's answers on playing time for Lane an Burke.

What the hell are they supposed to do, dig up Tris Speaker and shoot Craig Biggio?

[Limey]

so what--he still isnt satisfied that the Texans didnt take VY last year.  no matter what Purp said he wouldnt have satisfied.

Didn't sound like Purp is satisfied either, so Lord's point is (or should be) mute.

why didnt he said what he thought to Purp straight up instead of waiting until the next segment?

Because he's a pussy, which is prolly why MM called him such.

[Limey]

What the hell are they supposed to do, dig up Tris Speaker and shoot Craig Biggio?

Funny.  I was looking up all-time doubles and triples leaders with a colleague this morning (NTTAWWT), and Speaker is near the top of both.  That's a whole lot of running...

[JGrave]

Rich Lord, playing the part of the Cowardly Lion, came back from the break stating that he was "not satisfied" with Purpura's answers on playing time for Lane an Burke.

So if you two weren't satisfied with his answers during the interview, why didn't you tell him?  Why didn't you ask follow-up questions that addressed your concerns/dissatisfaction?  To wait until he is off and the next segment begins is the height of cowardice in my opinion.  Not surprising coming from you two though.

Josh in Bellaire

That's the email I just sent.

[pravata]

Rich Lord, playing the part of the Cowardly Lion, came back from the break stating that he was "not satisfied" with Purpura's answers on playing time for Lane an Burke.

Nutless worm.  Lane and Bruntlett are the only healthy players they have who can play CF.

[The Spleen]

What the hell are they supposed to do, dig up Tris Speaker and shoot Craig Biggio?

Save your bullet.
Zombie Speaker will gain more sustenance by harvesting the brain from Biggio's still-living skull...

[Navin R Johnson]

BTW, Pallilo is going crazy on 790 right now at the lack of moves that Tim P made.    Called TIm worthless and is calling for Anderson, Raines, etc... to be called up immediately.

[Arky Vaughan]

Save your bullet.
Zombie Speaker will gain more sustenance by harvesting the brain from Biggio's still-living skull...

Combined, they should have incredible doubles output. Although I'm not sure how fast a zombie Speaker would be on the basepaths, I'm fairly certain he could lap Carlos Lee.

[dirty steve]

BTW, Pallilo is going crazy on 790 right now at the lack of moves that Tim P made.    Called TIm worthless and is calling for Anderson, Raines, etc... to be called up immediately.

Rich Lord just listed Sir Vince Young as one of the people the Astros let go--I am totally done with 610AM.

CP does know it is Tim Raines JR. at RR, right?

[Navin R Johnson]

CP says Patton would easily be the 2nd best started on the Astros roster if he was brough up today. 

[kevwun]

P does know it is Tim Raines JR. at RR, right

and that it's not 1979

[Noe]

WXYZ in DETROIT has better handle on the Astros situation that the local nutless worms,

I hearby nominate "local nutless worms" as the official OWA codespeak for "Houston Media".

[dirty steve]

CP says Patton would easily be the 2nd best started on the Astros roster if he was brough up today. 

just like he thought Zobrist should take over the SS position from Everett last year.

[MusicMan]

BTW, Pallilo is going crazy on 790 right now at the lack of moves that Tim P made.    Called TIm worthless and is calling for Anderson, Raines, etc... to be called up immediately.

Tim Raines, Jr.  - career: .213/.263/.281
Josh Anderson - current, minors: .279/.331/.336
Ben Zobrist - career: .210/.237/.290

Charlie Palilo, baseball genius.

[MusicMan]

I hearby nominate "local nutless worms" as the official OWA codespeak for "Houston Media".

Seconded.  To the Funk & Wagner!

[Limey]

CP says Patton would easily be the 2nd best started on the Astros roster if he was brough up today. 

Hardly an endorsement.  HH's granny etc. etc.

[kevwun]

Charlie has no understanding of how prospect status relates to age.  He only looks at the current stats.  You can get by with that in the majors, but it will make you look really stupid in the minors.

[Limey]

I hearby nominate "local nutless worms" as the official OWA codespeak for "Houston Media".

I like "steaming pile of fuckwittery", but that's just me.

[Limey]

CP does know it is Tim Raines JR. at RR, right?

Maybe he thinks it's Claude Raines and it's 1942.

[MusicMan]

Well, that's just a Limeyspeak translation.  Much like referring to an elevator as a "lift", calling local nutless worms a "steaming pile of fuckwittery" probably plays well in Shropshire.

[Noe]

Seconded.  To the Funk & Wagner!

Oh Andy!!! Make it so my brother!

[Noe]

Charlie has no understanding of how prospect status relates to age.  He only looks at the current stats.  You can get by with that in the majors, but it will make you look really stupid in the minors.

Eggszactly!  I'm surprised CP didn't mention Travis Driskill as a prospect that would be the #3 on this club.

[Navin R Johnson]

CP "If Jr Towles isnt catching in 1 month, Tim P should be fired."

[dirty steve]

CP about to have a coronary spouting out towles' stats, on his "if this player isn't up by september" bender again.

[Ty in Tampa]

CP "If Jr Towles isnt catching in 1 month, Tim P should be fired."

The arrogance of his stupidity is dizzying.

[Limey]

The arrogance of his stupidity is dizzying.

...and he's the smart one.

[MusicMan]

...and he's the smart one.

This is so true, and so scary.

I desperately need an iPod.

[Navin R Johnson]

www.790KBME.com

Normally Charlie is at least level headed, but he is seriously tilting.   He is just ranting and raving over Tim.   I think on vacation he went to Disney World and is still pissed cause he wasn't tall enough to ride Space Mountain.

[Limey]

I desperately need an iPod.

From the post-NLCS win "Limey Time""

You see, I thought that I would check out Houston radio this morning to hear what was going on.  Lots of Astros talk, I presumed, and I was mostly right.  "The Animal" had the national ESPN radio feed (I think), and the chief blabbermouth was espousing how he otherwise wouldn't bother to tune into the World Series if it wasn't for the Rockitte, Bidge and Bags.  His colleague was trying to point out that the identity of the players in the game is one reason why you watch, but he was having none of it.  Apparently, he'd rather watch Tim Redding in a Yankmee uni than Roy Oswalt in an Astros' one.

So I tried the flagship on 740.  I didn't recognise the voice of the player being interviewed, but they were talking about the terrible start to the season, the game at the weekend and the red unis.  Then they mentioned the Colts.  WTF?  This is Texans talk?

The last resort was 610 and the self-proclaimed ?Morons in the Morning?.  They were talking about Bagwell DHing, and Granato was explaining how he has no record of getting "it" done.  Of course, in order to justify his theory he first has to ignore 2004.  With that post-season easily swept under the carpet, he looks back to 2001.  Baggy's record?  "No RBIs", says Genius John.  3 for 7 (.428 BA) says Lance.  No ribs, says John.  5 walks says Lance (a .667 OBP for those playing at home).  No ribs, counters John, his debating skills now fully on display.

It's a shame that Academy and Oshmans were so busy today, because otherwise I would have bought a baseball bat, gone down to the 610 studios, and used it to break every bone in Granato's body, from the toes up, while explaining to him that RBIs require teammates to be on base for you and the 5 walks were all in situations were there were runners to drive home.  I know this because I watched that series and don't have the brains of a goldfish.

It was back to the iPod.

Radio and TV, in general, sucks.  Sports broadcasting especially so.  Houston radio is gibbering pile of fuckwittery.

Ahhh plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[austro]

Maybe he thinks it's Claude Raines and it's 1942.

Imagine the strike zone on the The Invisible Man.

[dirty steve]

i instant meassaged him about his hissy fit.

CP--
quit tapping on your microphone.  just because people have tuned out 610 because of a bad, bad afternoon show doesnt mean they can't tune you out too.  your rants on towles and the astros inactivity are noted, but one only goes back to last year about this time when you were pining for Ben Zobrist to start in the middle IF for the home team.  love to hear you review how Zobrist on air has done the last year in the D-Rays organization, especially his stint in the big leagues this year, you know, before he was demoted.

and his response:
The point was that Zobrist at AA was ridiculous. Which it was. Minor league numbers are no guarantee of ML success, but opportunities
are supposed to be earned, and when earned, awarded. Especially when the major league team is not good.

CP


i thought it was fair.  maybe zobrist should have been at AAA, maybe not...i dont keep up with the minor leagues as much as others. 

[homer]

790 is a gimmick, right. There's no possible way anyone could seriously believe the crap that spills out of those mouths. One of those clowns, Lopez perhaps, just slammed the Astros by drawing a comparison to the Rangers:

"Would the Astros have traded Teixeira or Gagne? No, because they fall in love with their players."

Hey Uncle Drayton, you're a stooge! Why didn't you trade Berkman and Oswalt when you had the chance?

My oh my. It takes special talent to be that stupid.

A month ago Teixeira said that Hicks wasn't committed to winning and that the Rangers should thank Scott Boras for letting Teixeira play there for the 5 years so far, or something like that. Then he turned down 8/140 right before he was traded. Wants more like 10/200. He had to be traded.

[tophfar]

and his response:
The point was that Zobrist at AA was ridiculous. Which it was. Minor league numbers are no guarantee of ML success, but opportunities
are supposed to be earned, and when earned, awarded. Especially when the major league team is not good.

CP


i thought it was fair.  maybe zobrist should have been at AAA, maybe not...i dont keep up with the minor leagues as much as others. 

fair to what?  his backtracking ankle biting to cover his abject stupidity when called on it?

there's nothing fair about that piece of disingenuous bullshit response when faced the objective evidence that he is an idiot. 

and in fact fits about step 12 (or whichever) of strosrays trolling guidelines, where you change your stance by saying you were originally misunderstood, and THIS is what you REALLY meant.

[BudGirl]

This is so true, and so scary.

I desperately need an iPod.

Or a radio with FM frequency.

[MikeyBoy]

Asked about the trading deadline and their deals:

He feels that Wiggington is a real nice piece to the puzzle.  He's a tough, hard-nosed player with power.  Exactly what they wanted Ensberg to be.  Wheeler was tough to lose but they needed to make changes and he was the commodity that they had to offer.  He's happy they were able to work out a deal for Ensberg to go to SD.

Is he happy with what they accomplished?

There is more yet to do.  This was the beginning stages of their plan.  He wishes they could've done more but a lot of it is out of his control (meaning it takes two to trade).

Why isn't it like the 90s when big names are getting traded?

The talent supply is small and it costs a lot of money to scout and develop players.  Average clubs spend 15 to 20 million on develop, scouting and signing bonus.  It's a huge investment and a large percentage of their operating costs and when you have that kind of investment, it doesn't make sense to trade 2 to 3 of those guys you spend money on for a two or three month rental.  Plus, clubs are just unwilling to give up prospects.

Do they hold on to players too long?

Understands criticism but walk a mile in his shoes.  They are a team that goes after big name FAs.  Sometimes you have to have lower end salary players.  That means you keep guys you have under club control because they make the minimum.  He has to balance the payroll.  Can't spend $150 mil on payroll all on FAs.  Supply & demand is the other part.  They did look at the trade market for a 3B but there was no market.  Ensberg was 4th in MVP voting just two years ago.  Was he supposed to scrap him after the first slump he had?  Lane is a similar story.  He hit 26 homers.  They can't add $10 mil every year on FAs.  

Why is Lane playing?

Pence is hurt & Everett is hurt (Bruntlett at SS) so Lane has to play CF.  Won't bring up Anderson because it's too soon and he's not ready.  Burke cannot play CF.  That didn't work so Lane plays.  Is it perfect?  No but they have to wait on Hunter's health to improve.  

Chris Burke?

Wants to see him get ABs but Biggio is playing too.  Burke can't play CF so he'll have to play on Biggio offdays until Biggio retires.

Jennings?

Going to take a wait & see approach.  Spoke w/Jason at length after Sunday and he was very apologetic an embarassed.  Jason never felt like he got a rhythm or out of Spring Training mode.  They'll make a decision at end of season.

Payroll?

Feels they'll have plenty of flexibility to help the starting pitching.  Hasn't thought about extension for Loretta.  Will have to talk to Mark.  Mark wants to be a starter but he is very valuable in the role that he plays for the Astros right now but Mark has the power in the end.

Job security?

He's not concerned.  Feels his reputation in the baseball community is known and speaks for itself.  He won't look over his shoulder because that is when you're not doing your job.  He loves the organization and they are well-respected in baseball as a great organization.  Players love playing here.  They've apologized to him for their performances, or lack thereof.  He believes in what they are doing.  

Thanks, JGrave.

[Jose Cruz III]

Of course they do.  Lane was in AAA for 2 months.  Nonetheless, if Lane begins to hit, which was the original premise, why shouldn't the Astros play him? 

They should.

[Jose Cruz III]

I think perhaps you're misinterpreting his point. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't think he was addressing the wisdom of those trades but rather the realities of the trade market. Given the surprisingly punchless names that came in the deals he mentioned, the Purpura critics should take a step back and reassess the Wheeler deal from that vantage point. We all know there's an epidemic of stupidity that says Purpura must make diamonds out of doodoo, but it's not gonna happen. Of course, until the rampant Chris-Burke-for-Carl-Crawford fantasies over at AD are realized, Tim Purpura is a very fat man who appreciates a good doughnut buffet.

Actually what I said wasn't that deep either. All I was saying is that I'd be shocked if all of a sudden Lane starts hitting.

[94CougarGrad]

Of course, until the rampant Chris-Burke-for-Carl-Crawford fantasies over at AD are realized, Tim Purpura is a very fat man who appreciates a good doughnut buffet.

Just re-read this... delayed HAW.

[Noe]

Of course, until the rampant Chris-Burke-for-Carl-Crawford fantasies over at AD are realized, Tim Purpura is a very fat man who appreciates a good doughnut buffet.

Let those without paunch toss the first jelly roll.

[The Spleen]

Let those without paunch toss the first jelly roll.

Wandy already took care of that tonight.
104 of them actually, 62 for strikes...

[94CougarGrad]

Let those without paunch toss the first jelly roll.

I'll bet $25 the PTBNL we'll get for Ensberg is the Time to Make the Donuts guy.