Wheeler for Wigginton

[stubbyc]

Just what the Astros need. Another platoon 3b who can't field.

Edited to make sure this doesn't turn into a debate on the semantics of "we".

[JaneDoe]

I was really hoping that Wheeler had greater trade value than this.

[Bench]

Why?

[I'm Richies Dad]

Yeah I saw this on another site, and I was a bit disappointed.  So does this mean Lamb is gone, better yet Ensberg is gone.  Kinda disappointed on the return, word I read was that Wigginton was going to be non-tendered in the off-season.

[ckutac]

I think that this is great value for Wheeler.  So far this season he is hitting .275, and has a 16 HR's.  Far from great, but a whole lot better than anyone we have a 3B right now.  And is young enough that he can be around for a while.

[stubbyc]

I think that this is great value for Wheeler.  So far this season he is hitting .275, and has a 16 HR's.  Far from great, but a whole lot better than anyone we have a 3B right now.  And is young enough that he can be around for a while.

Wigginton is hitting .275/.319/.420 against right handed pitching this year. He has the same reputation Lamb does at 3rd. He will turn 30 in the offseason. A Lamb/Wigginton platoon would be decent offensively.

[CrawfordBoxes]

Can't wait to see what Tampa Bay gets for Wheeler.

[dirty steve]

great--sounds just like mike lamb.  would have preferred more upside with the return on wheeler, but it's not like we talking about pre 2007 wheels here.  it appears as if the FO was looking for major league ready talent coming in return, more than stocking a relatively barren AAA team.

[juliogotay]

Wigginington is remarkably consistant. Hitting .275 this year. Hit .275 last year.

[Noe]

They must be really close to dealing Mark Loretta if they decided to get Ty Wiggington.  I can't see where anyone is close to dealing for Morgan Ensberg, so I'm thinking Wiggington replaces Loretta on the team for awhile.

Dan Wheeler gets to take his wife home where her father lives and works as the broadcaster for the Tampa team.  Wheeler is married to the daughter of Dwayne Statts, former broadcaster for the Houston Astros.

[juliogotay]

Must be more deals coming or this makes no sense. Too many infielders.

[dirty steve]

They must be really close to dealing Mark Loretta if they decided to get Ty Wiggington.  I can't see where anyone is close to dealing for Morgan Ensberg, so I'm thinking Wiggington replaces Loretta on the team for awhile.

Dan Wheeler gets to take his wife home where her father lives and works as the broadcaster for the Tampa team.  Wheeler is married to the daughter of Dwayne Statts, former broadcaster for the Houston Astros.

so since they didnt get any farm help with the wigginton trade, do you think it comes in a possible loretta deal?  or does purp look again for players who can step in and play now?

[Noe]

so since they didnt get any farm help with the wigginton trade, do you think it comes in a possible loretta deal?  or does purp look again for players who can step in and play now?

This moves gives Purpura the ability to trade Loretta for prospects.

[Jose Cruz III]

Must be more deals coming or this makes no sense. Too many infielders.

This really makes no sense anyway.

[Bench]

Wiggy's a nice enough player and all; he plays the infield decently and can hit alright. But it is still not the direction I saw the team going in, hence the confusion.

[stubbyc]

This moves gives Purpura the ability to trade Loretta for prospects.

And why could he not do that before?

[Fredia]

This really makes no sense anyway.

maybe pup should stop reading my post

[Noe]

More than likely, the need for a replacement for Loretta now and Ensberg after the season is over was too big to allow this to go untapped as a need.  I think they need a CF as well, so either now or in the offseason they can go after that need as well.  Face it, with Pence putting a stranglehold on the #2 spot in the lineup, the need for a middle of the lineup producer is still there and you need that from a corner position (3rd or RF).  I'm thinking the CF will more than likely be a leadoff guy.  Mark Loretta hitting #5 is not the best situation for this team.  Loretta also has a good market going right now, so they'll need to replace him.  Ensberg has no market, so the likelihood is a lesser trade or even a release of Ensberg this offseason.  They need a middle of the lineup bat when Pence comes back and it will be good to see what Wiggington can do hitting behind Berkman and Lee and split some time with Lamb.

As for Wheeler, well he's a reliever.  Guys like Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez may prove to be guys who can replace him.  It also means, to me, that Qualls is going nowhere, just like Lidge.  Looks like Loretta and Wheeler will be the fodder this season to make trades.  I don't believe Jennings will be traded, but it all depends now what teams are willing to offer for him.  There has to be a trade for Loretta close, because if he's not traded, then Wiggington and Ensberg are redundant and Purpura's trade makes no sense.

[MikeyBoy]

I think Noe's right that this likely means Loretta is dealt by Tuesday. Even still it's a player that can play multiple positions that's not a free agent until 2010. This could be very important if Loretta and Lamb leave via free agency or trade. Did people really think Wheeler alone would bring something outstanding?

ETA: I think Wiggington is under club control through '09, maybe '08, shit I don't know.

[Hornstros]

Makes me wonder if Loretta's destination might be San Diego.  I would assume if they moved him there they'd want to wait till this series is over (even though we play them again in a few weeks)

[SeanBergmanRules]

Did people really think Wheeler alone would bring something outstanding?

I personally did.  I thought he could bring us 70 innings of well above average relief work a season.  And to me, thats worth a lot more than a league average 3B who plays poor defense.  Maybe they can get something good for Loretta, but it's not like Loretta couldn't have been moved anyway.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Well, I would agree but Philly has some serious issues at 3B as well.   In other words, Ensberg, Lamb, or Loretta would be an upgrade over there current options

[stubbyc]

As for Wheeler, well he's a reliever.  Guys like Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez may prove to be guys who can replace him.  It also means, to me, that Qualls is going nowhere, just like Lidge.  Looks like Loretta and Wheeler will be the fodder this season to make trades.  I don't believe Jennings will be traded, but it all depends now what teams are willing to offer for him.  There has to be a trade for Loretta close, because if he's not traded, then Wiggington and Ensberg are redundant and Purpura's trade makes no sense.

Wheeler's been about as reliable a setup man as there has been in baseball since he arrived in Houston. He's cheap and wasn't going to be a free agent until after the 2008 season. I don't get the need to trade him in the first place especially for a guy who looks more like a spare part than an everyday 3b. They could not have gotten by the rest of the season with Lamb and Ensberg at 3b and Biggio and Burke at 2b?

[TheWizard]

I agree with others that are saying this move makes little sense unless another trade is in the works.  I find it an odd trade not necessarily because of the player we got (another infielder), more because I was expecting us to try to get younger.

[pravata]

The immediate concern is that they need to send down a position player and call up a pitcher.

[WulawHorn]

eh- you traded a middle reliever with an era around 5 for a guy who is going to hit 25 HR's this year and hit around .280.  

People tend to value their own guys a little too much. Most relievers have a tendancy to up and down- who's to say wheeler didn't just have 2 career years and now is declining b/c of too many apperances, pitches or just his lack of dominant stuff catching up to him.

I'm not saying that it plays out that way- that's just the flip side to this coin.  I never saw Wheeler bringing the stros a king's ransom in return (that would be lidge, or to a lesser extent qualls).

If Wigginton can hit 25 bombs, drive in 80 and play an average 3b the astros will be better off there then they were last year or this. Not a terrible price to pay imo.  It aint' like Wheeler is going to fetch Detroit's CF of the future or Atl's Saltamaldkfa;sdfaksjia, that's lidge. I don't know that you wanna make that move but I'd be intruiged- much more so if I thought there was anyone in RR ready to step into the back of the bullpen shoes that have been so well handled here since about the mid 90's.

[WulawHorn]

The immediate concern is that they need to send down a position player and call up a pitcher.

I hope it's Chris Burke- just so I can hear him and Lancy boy whine again.

Acutally, I hope Burke is traded at the deadline for a sack of shag balls.

[BudGirl]

The immediate concern is that they need to send down a position player and call up a pitcher.

This team seems to have 3 to 4 third basemen, would they DFA Morgan?  Or maybe there will be another trade announced today or tomorrow moving Lamb/Loretta eliminating the need to send down a position player.  I think McLemore gets called back.

[MikeyBoy]

The immediate concern is that they need to send down a position player and call up a pitcher.

That's a tough call, assuming no more trades by tomorrow my guess would be Burke. I would think that with the Pence/AE injuries that Lane and Bruntlett are safe, but who knows.

[JackAstro]

The immediate concern is that they need to send down a position player and call up a pitcher.

If another deal is close, I reckon they carry 11 pitchers until Tuesday.

[pravata]

just at a glance, I've seen stories that the Yankees, Redsox, Cubs, Dodgers, Twins and Rockies were also trying for Wigginton.

[Ron Brand]

just at a glance, I've seen stories that the Yankees, Redsox, Cubs, Dodgers, Twins and Rockies were also trying for Wigginton.

Any ideas on what they were offering?

[pravata]

Any ideas on what they were offering?

The Yankees have reportedly offered right-hander Scott Proctor but may have to include a prospect. http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070727/SPORTS01/707270430/1035/SPORTS

Redsox- Two names mentioned in smaller deals (Devil Rays infielder Ty Wigginton) are reliever Manny Delcarmen and Double A righthander Justin Masterson
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/07/27/the_price_isnt_right_for_gms/

[Uncle Charlie]

If another deal is close, I reckon they carry 11 pitchers until Tuesday.

From the chron....
"Purpura said the Astros will announce a corresponding roster move Sunday, likely adding a pitcher to the staff."

[Ron Brand]

The Yankees have reportedly offered right-hander Scott Proctor but may have to include a prospect. http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070727/SPORTS01/707270430/1035/SPORTS

I'm sure we can read that to mean the Yankees would be interested in taking on that versatile Morgan Ensberg now. 

[Fredia]

From the chron....
"Purpura said the Astros will announce a corresponding roster move Sunday, likely adding a pitcher to the staff."

ahhh another pitcher. so that shoots down lots of theories...the wheels on the bus are going round and round

[pravata]

I'm sure we can read that to mean the Yankees would be interested in taking on that versatile Morgan Ensberg now. 

You're sure?  Ensberg plays third, that's all.  Those teams were interested in Wigginton for the same reason they're interested in Loretta.

[Twoniner]

   A couple of positives.   This could signal that the FO is looking to rebuild around the more immediate future rather than a few years off..   Could be a mistake, but with Berkman, Lee and Oswalt no longer spring chickens, it could be the right thing to do if they are will to spend some money these next couple of off-seasons.     Wigginton did hit 24 HR in just 444 AB's last year after missing quite a bit of time.   Unlike the lefthanded Huff,  Wigginton will see a nice boost leaving the Trop for the Crawford Boxes.   Seems like a roughly even trade that fills somewhat of an immediate need the Astros didn't have a fix for on the horizon in the minors.   Pitching isn't great either, but there's a much better shot to discover  someone who is servicable for the 7th inning.   

[Ron Brand]

You're sure?  Ensberg plays third, that's all.  Those teams were interested in Wigginton for the same reason they're interested in Loretta.

I was joshing.  Wishing.

[Noe]

   A couple of positives.   This could signal that the FO is looking to rebuild around the more immediate future rather than a few years off..   Could be a mistake, but with Berkman, Lee and Oswalt no longer spring chickens, it could be the right thing to do if they are will to spend some money these next couple of off-seasons.     Wigginton did hit 24 HR in just 444 AB's last year after missing quite a bit of time.   Unlike the lefthanded Huff,  Wigginton will see a nice boost leaving the Trop for the Crawford Boxes.   Seems like a roughly even trade that fills somewhat of an immediate need the Astros didn't have a fix for on the horizon in the minors.   Pitching isn't great either, but there's a much better shot to discover  someone who is servicable for the 7th inning.   

Agreed.

[ckutac]

Wigginton is a huge improvement over our current cast of characters at 3B.

Loretta while being very versatile and hitting for a solid average doesn't have NEAR the power that you need from a 3Ber.

Lamb doesn't play good enough D at 3B.

And Ensburg can't hit consistently to save his life.

[pravata]

   A couple of positives.   This could signal that the FO is looking to rebuild around the more immediate future rather than a few years off..   Could be a mistake, but with Berkman, Lee and Oswalt no longer spring chickens, it could be the right thing to do if they are will to spend some money these next couple of off-seasons.     Wigginton did hit 24 HR in just 444 AB's last year after missing quite a bit of time.   Unlike the lefthanded Huff,  Wigginton will see a nice boost leaving the Trop for the Crawford Boxes.   Seems like a roughly even trade that fills somewhat of an immediate need the Astros didn't have a fix for on the horizon in the minors.   Pitching isn't great either, but there's a much better shot to discover  someone who is servicable for the 7th inning.   

Yes, this could be a signal.  The words actually coming out of Purpura's mouth could be another signal,

"I wouldn't call it a seller's market right now," Purpura said. "If you're willing to take on A-ball or Double-A-type prospects, it is. But it's not our objective to take on those types of players. We've got a good nucleus here with star-type players, and our goal is to surround them with complementary players that will help us [in the near future]."
http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=103147.0

Purpura "Our goal is if we're going to deal a player we have under our control more than a year, we have to get a player back we can control more than a year."

"The only obligation is to get something for us if it's something that can truly help us in the future," he said. "A couple of A ball prospects or Double-A guys that replicate what we've already got in our system, I don't feel any pressure or compulsion to do it. No matter how we come out of this, we stiil want to finish strong. I don't feel like I have to move anybody."
http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=103215.0

[pravata]

I was joshing.  Wishing.

What the trade does do is increase the market for Loretta.  Bunch of teams were competing for a versatile infielder who could hit some.  Now, all those teams are going to concentrate on Loretta.

[Bench]

So what's Wiggy's contract status? How long will he be under club control?

[stubbyc]

So what's Wiggy's contract status? How long will he be under club control?

Rotoworld has him as a free agent after the 2009 season. My best guess is that he'll make about 10 mil over the next 2 years through arbitration.

[remy]

Reunited with Hickey, good for Wheels.

And I agree about the possible Burke re-re-demotion.  Make it so.

[Ron Brand]

What the trade does do is increase the market for Loretta.  Bunch of teams were competing for a versatile infielder who could hit some.  Now, all those teams are going to concentrate on Loretta.

I agree.  Loretta is the key now to making something good happen.  A combination with Jennings just might shake something spectacular loose, who knows.

[pravata]

I agree.  Loretta is the key now to making something good happen.  A combination with Jennings just might shake something spectacular loose, who knows.

About a week ago Alyson Footer listed the reasons why we shouldnt think so.  They're rent a players, we need to have a little perspective.

[L.I. Bill]

Wiggy can be a useful chap to have around.
As noted he hits with some pop, plays the game VERY hard (runs into walls, breaks up DPs, and will absolutely steamroll catchers to score a run), and can be used in a variety of positions: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and even corner OF in a pinch.

The downside is that he doesn't play any of those positions very well.
Drafted as a catcher (sort of) he spent the majority of his minor league time at 2nd but doesn't have the movement for it anymore (not sure he ever really did).  Is passable - though definitely below average - at either of the corner IF spots.

Bottom line: Don't love him as an everyday player and certainly wouldn't install him full time at 2nd.  In the right role he can be a solid contributer although those roles are more common in the DH league.

[Tralfaz]

Hunsicker now has his closer.

[Ron Brand]

About a week ago Alyson Footer listed the reasons why we shouldnt think so.  They're rent a players, we need to have a little perspective.

I know.  I mean "spectacular" in that we really don't have much in the way of expectations at all.

I just need to calm down.  I'm about to leave the country for a couple of weeks and I'm not going to be able to check in and see how this all turns out.  I hate that.

[dirty steve]

Hunsicker now has his closer.

surely you mean Andrew Friedman, the general manager of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

[Frobie]

I know it's a business and all, but I'm sorry to see Wheeler go.  Y'all will debate whether this was a good move or a bad one, and you will surely do a much better job than I could ever do, but he seemed like a good guy and a solid teammate.

Best wishes, Wheels. 

[dirty steve]

I know it's a business and all, but I'm sorry to see Wheeler go.  Y'all will debate whether this was a good move or a bad one, and you will surely do a much better job than I could ever do, but he seemed like a good guy and a solid teammate.

Best wishes, Wheels. 

couldnt have said it better.  i'll never forget:
-the Derrek Lee plunking
-clinching the 2004 NLDS.
-clinching the 2005 NLCS.

the team sure has lost alot of mentoring in that bully with the loss of wheeler today and springer in the offseason.  good luck with the d-rays.

[Matt]

He's not dead, he's just on another team and I believe he's a free agent so therefore could be signed in the offseason. 

[CarolinaStro]

He's not dead, he's just on another team and I believe he's a free agent so therefore could be signed in the offseason. 

not till after the 08 season

[Matt]

not till after the 08 season

Damn he's not a rental and all they got for him was Wigginton? How long until the Devil Rays deal him to the Mets?

[coop]

Who were they supposed to get for a setup man having a piss-poor season? 

I have a hard time believing that management sat down at the table and looked at all their offers for Wheeler, and passed on what some feel might be a better trade.  In their mind this was the best they could get for Wheeler.

BTW, what is wrong with a 3B who is 29, will be under club control for the next two seasons and will project to give you 25 knocks and a .275 BA over the course of a full season?

[TheWizard]

I think that many of us, myself included, are just over-valuing Wheels.  He is a solid, not spectacular, MR.  Its not impossible that he had his career peak with us.  Prior to coming over to us from the NYM, he had an  ERA of 4.80.  He is a career 4.00 ERA guy.  He is 29, which is definitely not an old fart, but he isn't a young buck either.  We are such a light hitting club that something had to get shaken up, we aren't winning ballgames with our current cast.  Plus with the current boatload of IFs we have, I can only hope more moves are to come.

On the flip side, it all depends on how valuable you think bully guys are.  Some people think they are overrated, and some think they can be the key to a successful ballclub, and are probably worth something in the middle.  I'm just rambling....

[Uncle Charlie]

BTW, what is wrong with a 3B who is 29, will be under club control for the next two seasons and will project to give you 25 knocks and a .275 BA over the course of a full season?

Nothing, espeically when he's consistant.  Purp made a comment about this, so I looked it up.  Month by month since the beginning of 2006 you can count on 4 bombs and a .250-.300 avg.  Same goes for just about every category.  It seems that with Wiggy, you know what your getting.  I, for one, would be willing to give up high upside for consistant and predictable production.

[Noe]

I think the other way you have to look at the Wiggington/Wheeler trade is this:

1. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor leagues to being the third baseman/#5 hitter for the next few years?  If the answer is "no", then this is a good idea. (sans signing a high cost free agent this offseason).

2. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor league to replace the setup man you just traded or anyone that you can promote from middle relief to setup man?  If the answer is "yes", then this is a great idea.  (Qualls to 8th inning setup man, Borkowski to setup man in the 7th, Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez to move up in the pecking order as well).

I don't think that Wiggington makes any of us stand up and notice, but if he's a piece of the puzzle, then it's a good trade.  They already have Berkman, Lee and Pence as the premiere hitters on the club, they need a compliment hitter.  Plus this saves the club the cost of signing a high cost free agent third baseman and they can use that money for more pitching if necessary.  Not saying it's going to happen, but a Carlos Zambrano signing would be awesome to think about if Houston could be in the ballpark for his services.  If you're going to dream, go ahead and dream big (and smart) I say!  Say no to A-Rod!

[stubbyc]

Who were they supposed to get for a setup man having a piss-poor season? 

I have a hard time believing that management sat down at the table and looked at all their offers for Wheeler, and passed on what some feel might be a better trade.  In their mind this was the best they could get for Wheeler.

BTW, what is wrong with a 3B who is 29, will be under club control for the next two seasons and will project to give you 25 knocks and a .275 BA over the course of a full season?

Well if his trade value has tanked then why trade him?

[coop]

Stubby, I believe that Noe answered that in his post above. 

[Arky Vaughan]

I for one am absolutely furious that Crap-pura was unable to get at least Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera with a package of Wheeler, Qualls, Jennings, Lamb and Loretta. What a failure.

[David in Jackson]

I think the other way you have to look at the Wiggington/Wheeler trade is this:

1. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor leagues to being the third baseman/#5 hitter for the next few years?  If the answer is "no", then this is a good idea. (sans signing a high cost free agent this offseason).

2. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor league to replace the setup man you just traded or anyone that you can promote from middle relief to setup man?  If the answer is "yes", then this is a great idea.  (Qualls to 8th inning setup man, Borkowski to setup man in the 7th, Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez to move up in the pecking order as well).

I don't think that Wiggington makes any of us stand up and notice, but if he's a piece of the puzzle, then it's a good trade.  They already have Berkman, Lee and Pence as the premiere hitters on the club, they need a compliment hitter.  Plus this saves the club the cost of signing a high cost free agent third baseman and they can use that money for more pitching if necessary.  Not saying it's going to happen, but a Carlos Zambrano signing would be awesome to think about if Houston could be in the ballpark for his services.  If you're going to dream, go ahead and dream big (and smart) I say!  Say no to A-Rod!

I believe Lamb and I know Loretta are free agents after this season, but Wigginton isn't a #5 hitter (on a contending team) and is probably only a platoon player who gives you versatility off the bench.   He's a lot like Lamb and underclub control

[ckutac]

I don't think that Wiggington makes any of us stand up and notice, but if he's a piece of the puzzle, then it's a good trade.  They already have Berkman, Lee and Pence as the premiere hitters on the club, they need a compliment hitter.  Plus this saves the club the cost of signing a high cost free agent third baseman and they can use that money for more pitching if necessary.  Not saying it's going to happen, but a Carlos Zambrano signing would be awesome to think about if Houston could be in the ballpark for his services.  If you're going to dream, go ahead and dream big (and smart) I say!  Say no to A-Rod!

This is the key, Ty Wigginton is not a superstar.  But he is a very solid 3Ber, that allows the team to not worry about finding a 3Ber for next year and use that money on other parts.

[TheWizard]

I for one am absolutely furious that Crap-pura was unable to get at least Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera with a package of Wheeler, Qualls, Jennings, Lamb and Loretta. What a failure.

Some guys have it, some guys don't.  If he would have also thrown in Ensberg, we probably could have also gotten Hanley Ramirez.

[dirty steve]

Wigginton looks genuinely annoyed in the post-game interview with Granato, almost Kent-like.

[WulawHorn]

I think the other way you have to look at the Wiggington/Wheeler trade is this:

1. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor leagues to being the third baseman/#5 hitter for the next few years?  If the answer is "no", then this is a good idea. (sans signing a high cost free agent this offseason).

2. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor league to replace the setup man you just traded or anyone that you can promote from middle relief to setup man?  If the answer is "yes", then this is a great idea.  (Qualls to 8th inning setup man, Borkowski to setup man in the 7th, Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez to move up in the pecking order as well).

I don't think that Wiggington makes any of us stand up and notice, but if he's a piece of the puzzle, then it's a good trade.  They already have Berkman, Lee and Pence as the premiere hitters on the club, they need a compliment hitter.  Plus this saves the club the cost of signing a high cost free agent third baseman and they can use that money for more pitching if necessary.  Not saying it's going to happen, but a Carlos Zambrano signing would be awesome to think about if Houston could be in the ballpark for his services.  If you're going to dream, go ahead and dream big (and smart) I say!  Say no to A-Rod!

That's all well and good, but if the astros signed Zambrano I'd gouge my eyes out. Please tell me you were joking and would not want that nut job on the local nine.  I can hardly believe that of you Noe (and I'm not talking talent at all- I argued I'd have to seriously think about taking him above Roy O earlier this year when I said Roy would be about the 10th player in MLB I'd pick if choosing up sides from scratch to start a team).

[Noe]

I believe Lamb and I know Loretta are free agents after this season, but Wigginton isn't a #5 hitter (on a contending team) and is probably only a platoon player who gives you versatility off the bench.   He's a lot like Lamb and underclub control

He's much better than Ensberg, that's for sure.  He'll swing the bat.  I'll say it again, your premiere hitters are: Lee, Berkman and Pence.  Count them, that's three very good hitters.  You want A-Rod, don't you... because unless you have a superstar at every base and hitting in every lineup slot, some of you are just not going to be happy.

I call it the AE syndrome, re: he's not a major league shortstop because he can't hit.

[Noe]

This is the key, Ty Wigginton is not a superstar.  But he is a very solid 3Ber, that allows the team to not worry about finding a 3Ber for next year and use that money on other parts.

Eggszactly.  Houston needs to get back to pitching first and then pitching next, following by pitching.  And then defense at the key positions.  Spending money above and beyond what they've done already to retain Lee and Berkman to secure a better *hitting* option than Wiggington and thus ignoring again the pitching that is out there would be a problem again next season.  IMHO of course.

[Noe]

That's all well and good, but if the astros signed Zambrano I'd gouge my eyes out. Please tell me you were joking and would not want that nut job on the local nine.  I can hardly believe that of you Noe (and I'm not talking talent at all- I argued I'd have to seriously think about taking him above Roy O earlier this year when I said Roy would be about the 10th player in MLB I'd pick if choosing up sides from scratch to start a team).

I'm not joking.  If he's on the market this offseason, Houston would be stupid to pass on him simply because he's a nut job.  Stupid with a captial "S".  Too much money?  That's a different matter.  And if pitchers become available to them via trade that cost a pretty penny, Houston could be in the market for those guys too if they want.  I'd just like to go back to what made this team a playoff contender for the last few years.

Pitching.

[austro]

I'm not joking.

I agree with Noe: if I were going to throw money at somebody this offseason, Zambrano would be my target.  That guy is a machine.  Plus. he's available as a pinch hitter 4 days out of 5.

[Navin R Johnson]

Roughly, how much will Ty be making next year, he will get a bump from the 2.5 he was making this year, right?

[Noe]

Roughly, how much will Ty be making next year, he will get a bump from the 2.5 he was making this year, right?

I'd say he can reasonably expect a bump to 3 - 3.5 mil.

[gwat]

I'm not joking. 

I agree with Noe and Austro about possibly pursuing Zambrano PLUS if he were a member of the Astros, he would not be shanking them 5 times a year.
If they could rationalize chasing Clemens the last two years, they certainly ought to be able to at least consider approaching Z this off-season.
The problem is that the Cubs have all the money in the world.

[remy]

PLUS if he were a member of the Astros, he would not be shanking them 5 times a year.

Yeah but from Z's point of view, if he signs with the Astros, there goes about 40 innings a season of guaranteed shutout baseball.

[gwat]

touche.

[stubbyc]

I think the other way you have to look at the Wiggington/Wheeler trade is this:

1. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor leagues to being the third baseman/#5 hitter for the next few years?  If the answer is "no", then this is a good idea. (sans signing a high cost free agent this offseason).

Fair enough. 3b might be the worst organizational position. I just have trouble differentiating between Wigginton and Mike Lamb. They are both good solid ML hitters and poor fielders. One is right handed, one is left handed. They would likely provide a nice offensive platoon but that does not appear to be the intent.

By mixing and matching this year the Astros have gotten .275/.350/.409 from the 3b position. How much of an upgrade is Wigginton upon that? He'll like provide a little more power and a little less on base. What would Lamb hit if given the everyday job? Will Lamb be more expensive than Wigginton?

2. Do you have anyone that is near in the minor league to replace the setup man you just traded or anyone that you can promote from middle relief to setup man?  If the answer is "yes", then this is a great idea.  (Qualls to 8th inning setup man, Borkowski to setup man in the 7th, Albers, Estrada or Guiterrez to move up in the pecking order as well).

Wheeler to Borkowski is a pretty sizable downgrade. Wheeler in his Astros tenure (including playoffs) has posted a 2.95 ERA. I do not think anyone you have mentioned can match that. Estrada and Gutierrez each look like they have taken a step backwards this season. In an ideal world isn't Albers in the rotation anyways?

[JimR]

Just what the Astros need. Another platoon 3b who can't field.

Edited to make sure this doesn't turn into a debate on the semantics of "we".

typical whiny post. you are consistent if nothing else.

so many folks on here know much, much more than the GMs. y'all do have your applications in, i hope.

[ybbodeus]

Wigginton looks genuinely annoyed in the post-game interview with Granato, almost Kent-like.

Did you hear the questions?  I was annoyed, too.

[ybbodeus]

I know it's a business and all, but I'm sorry to see Wheeler go.  Y'all will debate whether this was a good move or a bad one, and you will surely do a much better job than I could ever do, but he seemed like a good guy and a solid teammate.

Best wishes, Wheels. 

Si, compadre.  I, for one, shall miss his ability to change speeds on aggressive hitters, his overall consistency and his glove waggle.....always made me want to play a round of golf with the guy.

Lots of great perspective here; wish our tv, radio and newspaper clowns could glean some of it.

[Arky Vaughan]

By mixing and matching this year the Astros have gotten .275/.350/.409 from the 3b position. How much of an upgrade is Wigginton upon that? He'll like provide a little more power and a little less on base. What would Lamb hit if given the everyday job? Will Lamb be more expensive than Wigginton?

Here are Wigginton's career numbers per 162 games:

 Avg   OBP   Slg  2B  3B  HR   R  RBI  BB   SO  SB  CS
------------------------------------------------------
.267  .326  .448  33   2  21  71   79  44  110   6   3

I wouldn't want that OBP anywhere near the top of the order, but if you could lock in that decent power toward the latter half of the line-up, I think that could be useful. He's kept that OBP in the .320-.330 range and that slugging percentage in the .430-.490 range for about four seasons now. At least he's been consistent.

[Arky Vaughan]

Here are Wiggington's career numbers per 162 games:

 Avg   OBP   Slg  2B  3B  HR   R  RBI  BB   SO  SB  CS
------------------------------------------------------
.267  .326  .448  33   2  21  71   79  44  110   6   3

I wouldn't want that OBP anywhere near the top of the order, but if you could lock in that decent power toward the latter half of the line-up, I think that could be useful. He's kept that OBP in the .320-.330 range and that slugging percentage in the .430-.490 range for about four seasons now. At least he's been consistent.

Also, if you look at the OPS adjusted for league and ballpark, it's been 96, 103, 109 and 104 (average = 100) since 2004. That's not going to win the World Series by itself, but if you can get that on a regular basis, then you can pick up the premium somewhere else.

[MusicMan]

Here are Wiggington's career numbers per 162 games:

 Avg   OBP   Slg  2B  3B  HR   R  RBI  BB   SO  SB  CS
------------------------------------------------------
.267  .326  .448  33   2  21  71   79  44  110   6   3

I wouldn't want that OBP anywhere near the top of the order, but if you could lock in that decent power toward the latter half of the line-up, I think that could be useful. He's kept that OBP in the .320-.330 range and that slugging percentage in the .430-.490 range for about four seasons now. At least he's been consistent.

While our 3b, combined, this year have put up a .277/.351/.409 line.  In other words, you're going to sacrifice a little bit of OBP for some more pop, which is keeping with the club's philosophy at the corners.

I still think this is about having a 3b under club control, and am sincerely expecting a couple more deals by tomorrow.

[Arky Vaughan]

While our 3b, combined, this year have put up a .277/.351/.409 line.  In other words, you're going to sacrifice a little bit of OBP for some more pop, which is keeping with the club's philosophy at the corners.

I still think this is about having a 3b under club control, and am sincerely expecting a couple more deals by tomorrow.

Exactly on both points. If you've got that position nailed down with a modicum of production, and it's relatively cheap due to Wigginton still being arbitration-eligible, then you can spend your big money elsewhere.

Of course, if Wigginton does a Preston Wilson/Aubrey Huff/Woody Williams/Jason Jennings-style floperoo, then it's just another in a series of transactions that failed to give the Astros some much-needed stability.

[Bench]

Some Rosenthal "insight" and "analysis": http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7072074

"It was surprising that the Astros did not acquire young talent for reliever Dan Wheeler, but by trading for third baseman Ty Wigginton, they obtained a high-energy run producer whom they can control through 2009.
Wigginton's defense is suspect, but he brings an edge to a team that would benefit from more Hunter Pence-type aggression. The Astros were concerned about Wheeler's workload, and faced losing him as a free agent after next season. . . . The team also will continue to engage in discussions for Mark Loretta and Mike Lamb. The Padres like both players"

. . .

"The Phillies, who also had shown interest in Blanton, are looking at Reds right-hander Kyle Lohse and Astros right-hander Jason Jennings, among others."

More of the same.

[pravata]

Some Rosenthal "insight" and "analysis": ...
"It was surprising that the Astros did not acquire young talent for reliever Dan Wheeler, ...

He's not paying attention to easily obtainable facts.

[dirty steve]

Did you hear the questions?  I was annoyed, too.

yeah--granato didnt exactly wow him with his interview skills.  maybe it's all that time off.

[MusicMan]

He's not paying attention to easily obtainable facts.

Such as?

[Holzmiento]

Was it your typical Jim Rome-esque line of questioning starting with "How does it feel" or "Talk about how it feels" or "How great does it feel"

[Noe]

Exactly on both points. If you've got that position nailed down with a modicum of production, and it's relatively cheap due to Wigginton still being arbitration-eligible, then you can spend your big money elsewhere.

Of course, if Wigginton does a Preston Wilson/Aubrey Huff/Woody Williams/Jason Jennings-style floperoo, then it's just another in a series of transactions that failed to give the Astros some much-needed stability.

Amen.  If the performance does not match, the decision is still viable.  Them's the breaks in the GM world.  Worse is to be inactive and fiddle while the organization burns... or something like that.

[Arky Vaughan]

Amen.  If the performance does not match, the decision is still viable.  Them's the breaks in the GM world.  Worse is to be inactive and fiddle while the organization burns... or something like that.

You can put 'em in the uniform and put 'em in the line-up. You can't make 'em play.

[Froback]

You can put 'em in the uniform and put 'em in the line-up. You can't make 'em play.

The Astros of seen too much of the truth of THAT statement lately.

[Noe]

You can put 'em in the uniform and put 'em in the line-up. You can't make 'em play.

One of the hardest things to evaluate is team chemistry.  First off, you have to think really hard what team chemistry actually means.  Does it mean winning?  Usually, it does, so to construct a team with good chemistry... construct one that is built to win.  You're well on your way.   Placing guys in positions to struggle (Burke in center?  Biggio in center?  Berkman in center? Put Luke in the Opening Day lineup?  Don't put Pence in the Opening Day lineup?) is a balance that a good GM must struggle with himself.  At a certain point, you take risk and try to minimize the impact on team chemistry.

So you not only put 'em in a uni and then a lineup, you think about the affect on team chem as well.  When Biggio was in CF, Roy Oswalt held it in but was demonstrably disgusted watching Biggio struggle to catch routine gappers to right center during a series with the Marlins early in the season.  Roy didn't hide his "Aw damnit!" facial expression when Juan Pierre hit a fly ball that fell harmlessly in for a triple when any natural CF would catch like a can of corn.  That season, Houston acquired Carlos Beltran and the first time Oswalt pitched with Beltran in CF for him was in Arlington.  Michael Young hit a long flyball to center against Oswalt and Roy hung his head knowing he just gave up a homerun.  Beltran went back and leaped at the last minute and when he landed, he was sitting on his duff.  He paused for a second and then got up and reached in his glove to pull out the ball.

Oswalt's face went from "Aw shoot!" to "Aw My Gawd!" in nano-seconds!  Later that season, Oswalt offered that having a legit CF on this team "probably adds 10 wins right there...".  Now that is team chemistry.

[Froback]

Winning cures all kinds of ills.

[Limey]

You can put 'em in the uniform and put 'em in the line-up. You can't make 'em play.

MAKE THEM PLAY!
MAKE THEM PLAY!
MAKE THEM PLAY!

[WulawHorn]

One of the hardest things to evaluate is team chemistry.  First off, you have to think really hard what team chemistry actually means.  Does it mean winning?  Usually, it does, so to construct a team with good chemistry... construct one that is built to win.  You're well on your way.   Placing guys in positions to struggle (Burke in center?  Biggio in center?  Berkman in center? Put Luke in the Opening Day lineup?  Don't put Pence in the Opening Day lineup?) is a balance that a good GM must struggle with himself.  At a certain point, you take risk and try to minimize the impact on team chemistry.

So you not only put 'em in a uni and then a lineup, you think about the affect on team chem as well.  When Biggio was in CF, Roy Oswalt held it in but was demonstrably disgusted watching Biggio struggle to catch routine gappers to right center during a series with the Marlins early in the season.  Roy didn't hide his "Aw damnit!" facial expression when Juan Pierre hit a fly ball that fell harmlessly in for a triple when any natural CF would catch like a can of corn.  That season, Houston acquired Carlos Beltran and the first time Oswalt pitched with Beltran in CF for him was in Arlington.  Michael Young hit a long flyball to center against Oswalt and Roy hung his head knowing he just gave up a homerun.  Beltran went back and leaped at the last minute and when he landed, he was sitting on his duff.  He paused for a second and then got up and reached in his glove to pull out the ball.

Oswalt's face went from "Aw shoot!" to "Aw My Gawd!" in nano-seconds!  Later that season, Oswalt offered that having a legit CF on this team "probably adds 10 wins right there...".  Now that is team chemistry.

Quote is almost correct- it was that he said Beltran would save the team 10 runs a week the way I remember it. I thought that was a bit hyperbole, but the thought was definately right.

I remember tha catch up in Arlington well. I think that same game Beltran also had the only RBI in a 1-0 astros win, but I couldn't swear to it- that was too many shiners ago.

[ybbodeus]

Was it your typical Jim Rome-esque line of questioning starting with "How does it feel" or "Talk about how it feels" or "How great does it feel"

At least twice, he kept trying to say, "Welcome to the show," as if he were a minor leaguer.  Ty gave him a VERY blank look at that point....and pretty much for the balance of the interview. Pretty comical.  It was painfully obvious that he hadn't prepared.....per usual.

[ybbodeus]

One of the hardest things to evaluate is team chemistry.  First off, you have to think really hard what team chemistry actually means.  Does it mean winning?  Usually, it does, so to construct a team with good chemistry... construct one that is built to win.  You're well on your way.   Placing guys in positions to struggle (Burke in center?  Biggio in center?  Berkman in center? Put Luke in the Opening Day lineup?  Don't put Pence in the Opening Day lineup?) is a balance that a good GM must struggle with himself.  At a certain point, you take risk and try to minimize the impact on team chemistry.

So you not only put 'em in a uni and then a lineup, you think about the affect on team chem as well.  When Biggio was in CF, Roy Oswalt held it in but was demonstrably disgusted watching Biggio struggle to catch routine gappers to right center during a series with the Marlins early in the season.  Roy didn't hide his "Aw damnit!" facial expression when Juan Pierre hit a fly ball that fell harmlessly in for a triple when any natural CF would catch like a can of corn.  That season, Houston acquired Carlos Beltran and the first time Oswalt pitched with Beltran in CF for him was in Arlington.  Michael Young hit a long flyball to center against Oswalt and Roy hung his head knowing he just gave up a homerun.  Beltran went back and leaped at the last minute and when he landed, he was sitting on his duff.  He paused for a second and then got up and reached in his glove to pull out the ball.

Oswalt's face went from "Aw shoot!" to "Aw My Gawd!" in nano-seconds!  Later that season, Oswalt offered that having a legit CF on this team "probably adds 10 wins right there...".  Now that is team chemistry.

Great read.  Some chucklehead on 790 today called the ATL's Jones the best defensive centerfielder in baseball.  I immediately drew back in my mind to that moment in Arlington, among a few on Tal's Hill, regardless of the uniform he sported.  Jones made a nice catch on Tal's Hill once, but he damn near died doing it.

[Arky Vaughan]

Great read.  Some chucklehead on 790 today called the ATL's Jones the best defensive centerfielder in baseball.  I immediately drew back in my mind to that moment in Arlington, among a few on Tal's Hill, regardless of the uniform he sported.  Jones made a nice catch on Tal's Hill once, but he damn near died doing it.

He used to be a great center fielder. That was many moons (and pounds) ago.

[Astroholic]

He used to be a great center fielder. That was many moons (and pounds) ago.

Shuuush.  You are wrecking Boras' leverage.

[ybbodeus]

He used to be a great center fielder. That was many moons (and pounds) ago.

What do you figure?  Too many nights at Cheetah 3?

[Duman]

He used to be a great center fielder. That was many moons (and pounds) ago.

The spin that is coming out of ATL is that he doesn't have to be as great anymore because there are younger, faster legs (Francour/Harris/Diaz) on either side of him that cover more ground than the old guys did.  Therefore, his put outs have decreased not because of his decline but because of upgrades in the corner outfield position.

[Froback]

The spin that is coming out of ATL is that he doesn't have to be as great anymore because there are younger, faster legs (Francour/Harris/Diaz) on either side of him that cover more ground than the old guys did.  Therefore, his put outs have decreased not because of his decline but because of upgrades in the corner outfield position.

And Burke is the best LF in baseball, too.

He was one of the best CFers I ever saw defensively.  But that time has past.  Not that he sucks now, but he isn't what he used to be.

[Limey]

Great read.  Some chucklehead on 790 today called the ATL's Jones the best defensive centerfielder in baseball.  I immediately drew back in my mind to that moment in Arlington, among a few on Tal's Hill, regardless of the uniform he sported.  Jones made a nice catch on Tal's Hill once, but he damn near died doing it.

My favourite Andruw moment is his futile leap against the RCF wall in an attempt to reach Brad's game-extending dinger in the 2005 LDS.  That seems a long time ago now...

[austro]

My favourite Andruw moment is his futile leap against the RCF wall in an attempt to reach Brad's game-extending dinger in the 2005 LDS.  That seems a long time ago now...

I still wish the club had immortalized that by painting a crime-scene silhouette on the fence.

[Froback]

I still wish the club had immortalized that by painting a crime-scene silhouette on the fence.

Who was it that did that, it was pretty funny as I recall.

[Astroholic]

Who was it that did that, it was pretty funny as I recall.

For me it was Reggie Sanders ballerina act.

Limey, I reread you post..you said your favorite Andrew act...nevermind

[MusicMan]

Who was it that did that, it was pretty funny as I recall.

Aaron Rowand's teammates did it after his face-plant into the Philly wall.