Vick indicted (non-bb)

[MusicMan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065

Michael Vick has been indicated by a federal grand jury.

"Michael Vick, you are a very bad man.  You are sentenced to a federal, pound-the-in-the-ass prison."

[remy]

Anyone proven guilty in a court of law to be involved in dogfighting should receive the maximum punishment IMHO.  Utterly despicable stuff.  Being a celebrity, though, I expect him to walk.

[matadorph]

I read the entire indictment. Despicable is an understatement. This shitstain of a human being is the pro football equivalent of the rednecks in Texas who get off on intentionally trying to kill wayward dogs that stray too close to the highway. I'll never forget the time I saw a Deliverance-wannabe swerve his old Chevy right towards an old hound dog strolling down the shoulder  on 79 between Taylor and Rockdale. This lunatic intentionally killed an innocent dog right in front of my eyes and laughed about it when I angrily passed him. It was one of the most disgusting displays of inhumanity I've ever witnessed firsthand.

[HudsonHawk]

I read the entire indictment. Despicable is an understatement. This shitstain of a human being is the pro football equivalent of the rednecks in Texas who get off on intentionally trying to kill wayward dogs that stray too close to the highway. I'll never forget the time I saw a Deliverance-wannabe swerve his old Chevy right towards an old hound dog strolling down the shoulder  on 79 between Taylor and Rockdale. This lunatic intentionally killed an innocent dog right in front of my eyes and laughed about it when I angrily passed him. It was one of the most disgusting displays of inhumanity I've ever witnessed firsthand.

What about armadillos?  Can you swerve to hit them?

[Limey]

What about armadillos?  Can you swerve to hit them?

No, you stop and give them a beer.

[otterjb]

From ESPN:

The indictment states that the property was purchased by Vick for the intent of training dogs for fights. Burials for non-performing dogs would be at this location.

Vick was involved in executing 8 dogs w/ another person who was named in the indictment. The methods of execution include hanging, slamming into the ground until death, and various other methods.

Another named in the indictment executed a dog for "poor performance" by wetting it down and electrocuting it.


That shit makes me sick to my stomach. If true, he deserves a special type of punishment.

[ASTROCREEP]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065

Michael Vick has been indicated by a federal grand jury.

"Michael Vick, you are a very bad man.  You are sentenced to a federal, pound-the-in-the-ass prison."

The actual fighting part was probably the happiest time for those poor dogs.

Pitbulls are actually real sweat dogs, they would rather lick you that bight you, it's a shame what people have done to them.

[MikeyBoy]

Pitbulls are actually real sweat dogs, they would rather lick you that bight you, it's a shame what people have done to them.

The propoganda spread by both sides of the pit bull debate is likely inaccurate to some extent, but the notion that pit bulls are just lovely animals acting out of rage soley due to mistreatment by owners is horseshit. Even pit bulls that are raised properly can snap on a moments notice into a fierce rage that goes beyond biting, so why even take the risk? Get a labrador, they make great pets and don't maim people on a daily basis. Do you think all labs are treated properly? With pit bulls the data is there in regards to attacks, it's not about the reason, it's about the risk.

There is a good study on this subject here...http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

It takes Acrobat Adobe to open, if you don't have the software a summary can be found here...http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

[geezerdonk]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065
"Michael Vick, you are a very bad man.  You are sentenced to a federal, pound-the-in-the-ass prison."

Among the most despicable cocksuckers to walk the face of the earth. To describe Vick and his ilk as subhuman is extravagantly complimentary. No punishment available through the legal system is close to adequate.

[ASTROCREEP]

The propoganda spread by both sides of the pit bull debate is likely inaccurate to some extent, but the notion that pit bulls are just lovely animals acting out of rage soley due to mistreatment by owners is horseshit. Even pit bulls that are raised properly can snap on a moments notice into a fierce rage that goes beyond biting, so why even take the risk? Get a labrador, they make great pets and don't maim people on a daily basis. Do you think all labs are treated properly? With pit bulls the data is there in regards to attacks, it's not about the reason, it's about the risk.

There is a good study on this subject here...http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

It takes Acrobat Adobe to open, if you don't have the software a summary can be found here...http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

Unfortunately you are correct, aggression toward people has been bred INTO the dog.

And this has happened recently. Pit-bull fighting USED to be a gentlemen’s sport. (not that I condone it)
A pit-bull that showed aggression towards people were either put down or not allowed to breed.

Because of this for a long time, Pit bulls were not considered good guard dogs. (and they can hardly bark)

Only proper licensed breeders should be allowed to breed and sell this dog. Then that aggression
toward people will be breeded out of them.

I raised 2 pit-bull in the late 80's, and they were sweethearts, played with my young nieces and nephews.
NOW, I wouldn't let my 2 little one near a Pit-bull.

[Savage]

Even pit bulls that are raised properly can snap on a moments notice into a fierce rage that goes beyond biting...

This statement is inaccurate and not supported by the referenced study which is mearly a data set.   If you're going to provoke this discussion, at least attempt to avoid gross generalizations without any factual support.

[ASTROCREEP]

This statement is inaccurate and not supported by the referenced study which is mearly a data set.   If you're going to provoke this discussion, at least attempt to avoid gross generalizations without any factual support.

Yeah I was trying to avoid that statement.

[Andyzipp]

Unfortunately you are correct, aggression toward people has been bread INTO the dog.

A pit-bull that showed aggression towards people were either put down or not allowed to bread.

Only proper licensed breeders should be allowed to bread and sell this dog.

Then that aggression toward people will be breaded out of them.

By the way, the word you're looking for is "breed", the past tense of which is "bred".

Although bread is delicious.  Especially Pumpernickle.  Breaded dog is not as tasty.

[MusicMan]

I was still trying to figure out what a "sweat dog" was.

[Jacksonian]

I was still trying to figure out what a "sweat dog" was.

Snoop's lesser known cousin.

[MRaup]

I was still trying to figure out what a "sweat dog" was.

Didn't you ever watch Welcome Back Kotter? Thats what the class was called! DUH!

[MikeyBoy]

This statement is inaccurate and not supported by the referenced study which is mearly a data set.   If you're going to provoke this discussion, at least attempt to avoid gross generalizations without any factual support.

Yes because making statements on a message board without factual support is so taboo. So, do you think only mistreated pit bulls attack and only when provoked? Are you that naive, or are you just being obtuse?

[tophfar]

Yes because making statements without factual support is so taboo.

there, i fixed it for you. 

that made me feel dirty.

[ASTROCREEP]

Yes because making statements on a message board without factual support is so taboo. So, do you think only mistreated pit bulls attack and only when provoked? Are you that naive, or are you just being obtuse?

I would like to see the evidence that shows Pitbulls are more likely to Attack PEOPLE than any other dog?

[BizidyDizidy]

I would like to see the evidence that shows Pitbulls are more likely to Attack PEOPLE than any other dog?

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Of the 2,209 attacks analyzed in this report, 50% came from pit bulls - FAR more than any other dog.

[ASTROCREEP]

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Of the 2,209 attacks analyzed in this report, 50% came from pit bulls - FAR more than any other dog.

That's probably because bites by Chihuahas, Pomeranians, Poodles ..etc are not reported.

Either way the attacks are due to BAD TREATMENT, and BAD BREEDING by PEOPLE.
I wonder how a report from 1985 would look.

You would probably see Dobermans on top of the list. The IN "tough" dog of the time.

[Bench]

So, do you think only mistreated pit bulls attack and only when provoked? Are you that naive, or are you just being obtuse?

I think that your use of the term "mistreated" answers your own question.

[strosrays]

Several of us were sitting around the office one day trying to figure out what breeds all the great cartoon dogs were.  Seems like many were beagles, or hounds, at least - Snoopy, Underdog, Mr. Peabody. . . Muttley was a mutt, obviously.  But what I want to know is, what the fuck was Hong Kong Phooey?

[Ty in Tampa]

But what I want to know is, what the fuck was Hong Kong Phooey?

Quicker than the human eye?

#1 Super guy?

[MRaup]

Quicker than the human eye?

#1 Super guy?

There are days when I love this board.

Today is one of those days.

[Savage]

Yes because making statements on a message board without factual support is so taboo. So, do you think only mistreated pit bulls attack and only when provoked? Are you that naive, or are you just being obtuse?

I think dogs (of all breeds) attack for a variety of reasons based on situation, treatment, temperment etc.  I make that judgment based on years of dog rescue focused on large breed dogs including huskys, pit bulls, german shepards, border collies and even a wolf hybrid. I choose not to make generalizations given the complexity of the issue.  

And for what it's worth i'd put kids with my pit bull over my mother-in-law's 4lb poodle any day.  but that's two specific dogs.

[MikeyBoy]

I think dogs (of all breeds) attack for a variety of reasons based on situation, treatment, temperment etc.  I make that judgment based on years of dog rescue focused on large breed dogs including huskys, pit bulls, german shepards, border collies and even a wolf hybrid. I choose not to make generalizations given the complexity of the issue.  

And for what it's worth i'd put kids with my pit bull over my mother-in-law's 4lb poodle any day.  but that's two specific dogs.

Spoken like a true savage.

J/K

[ASTROCREEP]

I think dogs (of all breeds) attack for a variety of reasons based on situation, treatment, temperment etc.  I make that judgment based on years of dog rescue focused on large breed dogs including huskys, pit bulls, german shepards, border collies and even a wolf hybrid. I choose not to make generalizations given the complexity of the issue.  

And for what it's worth i'd put kids with my pit bull over my mother-in-law's 4lb poodle any day.  but that's two specific dogs.

I've been bit by my Schnauzer, Italian Greyhound, and American Eskimo.

If I was ever bit by one of my Pitbulls, I'd be in the Hospital, and the Doctor, would be FORCED to report it.

[Taras Bulba]

I think dogs (of all breeds) attack for a variety of reasons based on situation, treatment, temperment etc.  I make that judgment based on years of dog rescue focused on large breed dogs including huskys, pit bulls, german shepards, border collies and even a wolf hybrid. I choose not to make generalizations given the complexity of the issue.  

And for what it's worth i'd put kids with my pit bull over my mother-in-law's 4lb poodle any day.  but that's two specific dogs.

If something snaps with a "4lb poodle" you have a nasty bite.  Same thing with a pit bull and you have a dead human.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It's tough to dispute the numbers regarding aggressive behavior, but, Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer guy, believes Pit Bulls, without any outside help or influence from humans, are not inherently different, psychologically speaking, than any other breed of dog. As a fan of his and having seen his results, and having practiced his methodolgy on my own mixed pitbull/whippet, I tend to agree. My dog, however, has never show any agression just a need for a lot of playing and exercise.

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/dpc/

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/dpc_pack/dpc_popeye.php

[ASTROCREEP]

It's tough to dispute the numbers regarding aggressive behavior, but, Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer guy, believes Pit Bulls, without any outside help or influence from humans, are not inherently different, psychologically speaking, than any other breed of dog. As a fan of his and having seen his results, and having practiced his methodolgy on my own mixed pitbull/whippet, I tend to agree. My dog, however, has never show any agression just a need for a lot of playing and exercise.

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/dpc/

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/dpc_pack/dpc_popeye.php

You have a WHIPPET/PITBULL mix?

That's like combining Randy Couture and Michael Johnson

Do you have pictures?

[MikeyBoy]

I think dogs (of all breeds) attack for a variety of reasons based on situation, treatment, temperment etc.  I make that judgment based on years of dog rescue focused on large breed dogs including huskys, pit bulls, german shepards, border collies and even a wolf hybrid. I choose not to make generalizations given the complexity of the issue.  

And for what it's worth i'd put kids with my pit bull over my mother-in-law's 4lb poodle any day.  but that's two specific dogs.

I understand that pit bulls are targeted by people looking to exploit them for fighting, etc., which leads to the high attack statistics, but at the same time there is a reason why pit bulls are the dog of choice, they can fuck shit up. Without definitive information as a whole on the genetic vs. enviroment effect on pit bulls, why take on the risk?

[Savage]

If something snaps with a "4lb poodle" you have a nasty bite.  Same thing with a pit bull and you have a dead human.

i don't dispute that.  But with these two specific dogs, the pit bull is so shy that he runs away from his own farts and has over 10 years never shown any aggression.  the poodle is aggressive and bites.  There's no question that there is a population of pit bulls that for a variety of reasons shouldn't be around people and can't be rehabiliated.  Sadly, many of those reasons have to do with mistreatment of specific dogs or the breed by people.  But to take that to mean that *all* pit bulls are ready to snap and viciously maul without provocation at a moments notice is a gross generalization.  Not all pit bulls are sweet.  not all pit bulls are vicious.  NO DOG should be trusted on face due to its breed or apperance without evaluating and understanding its tempermant.  

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

You have a WHIPPET/PITBULL mix?

That's like combining Randy Couture and Michael Johnson

Do you have pictures?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/littlepuppydog/788364159/
 

[Bench]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/littlepuppydog/788364159/
 

No f'n way.

[MikeyBoy]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/littlepuppydog/788364159/
 

Oddly, this dog was seen digging through Barry Bond's trash just months before this photo was taken.

[ASTROCREEP]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/littlepuppydog/788364159/
 

  This required a smiley.

If that is real, thats sad.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Not really my dog, mine is a thin frisbee catchin' fool. I don't have any picture that I can post at this time.

[Trey]

  This required a smiley.

If that is real, thats sad.

There was a story about that dog in The Sun (?) the other day.  Basically, it's some kind of genetic mutation (duh).  From what I remember, the dog is happy as can be, but his life span is shortened by, like, 20%.

ETA: http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/story.html?id=67f15c17-2717-4022-bb76-1b982456e793

This isn't the article I read, but it does have some of the same info.

[Astroholic]

There was a story about that dog in The Sun (?) the other day.  Basically, it's some kind of genetic mutation (duh).  From what I remember, the dog is happy as can be, but his life span is shortened by, like, 20%.

ETA: http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/story.html?id=67f15c17-2717-4022-bb76-1b982456e793

This isn't the article I read, but it does have some of the same info.

Hey, that looks just like the Barry's dog.

[homer]

Hey, that looks just like the Barry's dog.

Hey that looks like MikeyBoy's comment 4 posts up.

[Astroholic]

Hey that looks like MikeyBoy's comment 4 posts up.

Tnks.

[Andyzipp]

In case some of you managed to miss the details of this fuckwit's alleged involvement...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_woolner&sid=ax1H7mQbjxyU

[geezerdonk]

Unless they are complete morons, (a possibility that shouldn't be entirely dismissed) the prosecutors understand what a high profile case this is and before indicting Vick they made double sure that they had an extra strong case against him - evidence in the overkill range. I'm guessing that they have turned several of Vick's cohorts who are going to put it all over him at trial. I wouldn't be surprised if they have him on video and/or audio. I don't know anything about the area where the trial is to be held and what the venire looks like, but unless he can get a nullification verdict a la OJ, most likely he is dead meat. By the end of the season, Michael's scrambling skills will be on prominent display, not on the field, but in the shower.

[Noe]

Unless they are complete morons, (a possibility that shouldn't be entirely dismissed) the prosecutors understand what a high profile case this is and before indicting Vick they made double sure that they had an extra strong case against him - evidence in the overkill range.

I heard a law expert opine this morning that he read the indictment and there was just too much detail in the filing to think that the prosecutors are sitting there with a weak case.  Such detail, in this man's opinion, leads one to believe they have pretty darn strong evidence to back it up.  Or strong enough for them.

I also heard the Nike has officially come out with a statement that they are not going to delay the campaign of Michael Vick sports wear at all.  They are standing on the "innocent until proven guilty" platform right now.  One has to think they would've at least decided to delay their line of Vick-wear until this was prosecuted to the full extent.  This is a marketing gamble by Nike, one that probably hinges on the fact that 1) Vick is a star and will probably skate somehow because he can hire some serious legal action on his behalf and 2) Vick's alibi seems plausible enough and is probably the cornerstone of his defense right now ("I wasn't there and I didn't do it... my family members did!")

[Jacksonian]

I heard a law expert opine this morning that he read the indictment and there was just too much detail in the filing to think that the prosecutors are sitting there with a weak case.  Such detail, in this man's opinion, leads one to believe they have pretty darn strong evidence to back it up.  Or strong enough for them.

I also heard the Nike has officially come out with a statement that they are not going to delay the campaign of Michael Vick sports wear at all.  They are standing on the "innocent until proven guilty" platform right now.  One has to think they would've at least decided to delay their line of Vick-wear until this was prosecuted to the full extent.  This is a marketing gamble by Nike, one that probably hinges on the fact that 1) Vick is a star and will probably skate somehow because he can hire some serious legal action on his behalf and 2) Vick's alibi seems plausible enough and is probably the cornerstone of his defense right now ("I wasn't there and I didn't do it... my family members did!")

If they're marketing their Vick stuff mostly in the Atlanta area then they are probably safe.

[Andyzipp]

I heard a law expert opine this morning that he read the indictment and there was just too much detail in the filing to think that the prosecutors are sitting there with a weak case.  Such detail, in this man's opinion, leads one to believe they have pretty darn strong evidence to back it up.  Or strong enough for them.

I also heard the Nike has officially come out with a statement that they are not going to delay the campaign of Michael Vick sports wear at all.  They are standing on the "innocent until proven guilty" platform right now.  One has to think they would've at least decided to delay their line of Vick-wear until this was prosecuted to the full extent.  This is a marketing gamble by Nike, one that probably hinges on the fact that 1) Vick is a star and will probably skate somehow because he can hire some serious legal action on his behalf and 2) Vick's alibi seems plausible enough and is probably the cornerstone of his defense right now ("I wasn't there and I didn't do it... my family members did!")

I don't think this is much of a risk for Nike.  A large part of the target market for Michael Vick gear is not real concerned about animal abuse.

[geezerdonk]

I don't think this is much of a risk for Nike.  A large part of the target market for Michael Vick gear is not real concerned about animal abuse.

Without a doubt.
This might actually be a marketing bonanza for Nike.
The same segment of the populace that views physical and sexual abuse of women and girls as admirable behavior similarly approves of animal cruelty. I refer to an earlier comment - subhuman is an extravagantly charitable description.

[Andyzipp]

Without a doubt.
This might actually be a marketing bonanza for Nike.
The same segment of the populace that views physical and sexual abuse of women and girls as admirable behavior similarly approves of animal cruelty. I refer to an earlier comment - subhuman is an extravagantly charitable description.

I think Clinton Portis' comments about the issue were illuminating.  There is a subsection of the population that views dogfighting as a way of life, a means of entertainment and an income stream.  They'll also likely wear Ron Mexico jerseys to the fights.

[Bench]

I heard a law expert opine this morning that he read the indictment and there was just too much detail in the filing to think that the prosecutors are sitting there with a weak case.  Such detail, in this man's opinion, leads one to believe they have pretty darn strong evidence to back it up.  Or strong enough for them.

That sounds right. I just read the indictment, and it is unusually detailed.

[WulawHorn]

That sounds right. I just read the indictment, and it is unusually detailed.

This is a Federal case. The feds win like 95% of their cases.  They win against guys that have enough money to hire legal dream teams.

This is not some slap dick over worked and underpaid prosecutor in Fulton County.  This is a guy at the top of his profession with virtually unlimited resources, that has most likely bounced the details of the case off everyone he knows to make sure they'd go along with it too and he doesn't come off looking like Nifong.

They've got to have the goods on him and he's got to be going to federal, pound me in the ass prison shortly, imo.

[MikeyBoy]

They've got to have the goods on him and he's got to be going to federal, pound me in the ass prison shortly, imo.

Michael...watch out for your cornrow, bud.

[Bench]

This is a Federal case. The feds win like 95% of their cases.  They win against guys that have enough money to hire legal dream teams.

This is not some slap dick over worked and underpaid prosecutor in Fulton County.  This is a guy at the top of his profession with virtually unlimited resources, that has most likely bounced the details of the case off everyone he knows to make sure they'd go along with it too and he doesn't come off looking like Nifong.

They've got to have the goods on him and he's got to be going to federal, pound me in the ass prison shortly, imo.

I've read a lot of federal conspiracy indictments, and this one has a lot more detail in the overt acts section than any I have seen.

[Andyzipp]

Michael...watch out for your cornrow, bud.

This is either brilliant or a really bad misquote.

[Holly]

Zipp, the poor woman is dying. Don't you think you should change your avatar of Tammy Faye to something from her more youthful days? Er... if she had any, that is.

[Noe]

I've read a lot of federal conspiracy indictments, and this one has a lot more detail in the overt acts section than any I have seen.

That seems to be the prevailing opinion of the legal pundits.  Mr. Mexico has a serious challenge coming up in court.

[Lurch]

I heard a law expert opine this morning that he read the indictment and there was just too much detail in the filing to think that the prosecutors are sitting there with a weak case.  Such detail, in this man's opinion, leads one to believe they have pretty darn strong evidence to back it up.  Or strong enough for them.

I also heard the Nike has officially come out with a statement that they are not going to delay the campaign of Michael Vick sports wear at all.  They are standing on the "innocent until proven guilty" platform right now.  One has to think they would've at least decided to delay their line of Vick-wear until this was prosecuted to the full extent.  This is a marketing gamble by Nike, one that probably hinges on the fact that 1) Vick is a star and will probably skate somehow because he can hire some serious legal action on his behalf and 2) Vick's alibi seems plausible enough and is probably the cornerstone of his defense right now ("I wasn't there and I didn't do it... my family members did!")

Someone at Nike apparently just got around to reading the details...

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Michael...watch out for your cornrow, bud.

This is either brilliant or a really bad misquote.

cornrow bud or cornhole butt?

[Lurch]

cornrow bud or cornhole butt?

A bustle in your hedgerow?

[MikeyBoy]

This is either brilliant or a really bad misquote.

The replacement of "hole" with "row" was intentional, if that's what you mean.

[Noe]

Someone at Nike apparently just got around to reading the details...

Wow, that was quick.  One day to be exact!  I think you may be right, someone actually read the indictment and it is chock full of details that are not very pretty.  Funny what a little reading might to do an opinion.

[WulawHorn]

Michael...watch out for your cornrow, bud.

I just saw that movie last weekend on regular tv. They changed my favorite line to:

"oh no, now I'm going to end up in federal pound me into ashes prison"

Very lame. I'm guessing they changed watch your cornhole to watch your cornrow as well. I didn't notice