Author Topic: 2008 Hooks  (Read 5401 times)

Moose Marathon

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2008 Hooks
« on: July 16, 2007, 02:18:53 pm »
Alright the Astros are terrible, Football is not here yet, and it is a slow day at work.

So lets say you are the man in charge of player development for the Astros and the task at hand is to come up with the starting line up for the Corpus Christi Hooks in 2008.

Here are the rules (Just for fun. Like I said I'm bored.)

1.) You have to pick a starter for each position, your starting rotation, your closer, and a DH/1st guy of the bench.

2.) You can not put any player on the team that has played for the Hooks for 2 years are more.

3.) You can not select anyone for that this team that is older than 25 years old. (Astros miraculously decide to get younger and push guys up through the system faster :) )

Jacksonian

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 02:27:22 pm »
Alright the Astros are terrible, Football is not here yet, and it is a slow day at work.

So lets say you are the man in charge of player development for the Astros and the task at hand is to come up with the starting line up for the Corpus Christi Hooks in 2008.

Here are the rules (Just for fun. Like I said I'm bored.)

1.) You have to pick a starter for each position, your starting rotation, your closer, and a DH/1st guy of the bench.

2.) You can not put any player on the team that has played for the Hooks for 2 years are more.

3.) You can not select anyone for that this team that is older than 25 years old. (Astros miraculously decide to get younger and push guys up through the system faster :) )


Not much to this.  The younger guys at CC repeat and bring up most of the Salem team.  25 and under is easily doable every year.

However, you'll find that having a few older and wiser players on the team is beneficial.  Towles is finding that out right now.
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Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 02:29:04 pm »
Here's my lineup;

CF - J. Flores
2B - T. Torres
LF - M. Einerston
RF - E. Iorg
C - J. Towles
DH - J. Van Ostrand
1B - O. Sheldon
SS - T. Manzella
3B - K. Clemens

Here's my rotation;

1. - B. James
2. - B. Bougesivic
3. - F. Paulino
4. - S. Perez
5. - J. Barthmaier
C. - S. Gervacio

Duman

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 02:34:44 pm »
Here's my lineup;

CF - J. Flores
2B - T. Torres
LF - M. Einerston
RF - E. Iorg
C - J. Towles
DH - J. Van Ostrand
1B - O. Sheldon
SS - T. Manzella
3B - K. Clemens

Here's my rotation;

1. - B. James
2. - B. Bougesivic
3. - F. Paulino
4. - S. Perez
5. - J. Barthmaier
C. - S. Gervacio


Have no problem with your rotation except Paulino will be at AAA more than likely.  You have 2 guys on your team who have not mastered Low A ball much less caught a whiff of High A ball (Clemens & Van Ostrand) and one who has had success at High A for a very short period of time and keeps being sent back down (Torres).

There are several guys I would move up ahead of them Sutil, and Johnson (depending on his second half)  off the top of my head.
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Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 02:42:45 pm »
Have no problem with your rotation except Paulino will be at AAA more than likely.  You have 2 guys on your team who have not mastered Low A ball much less caught a whiff of High A ball (Clemens & Van Ostrand) and one who has had success at High A for a very short period of time and keeps being sent back down (Torres).

There are several guys I would move up ahead of them Sutil, and Johnson (depending on his second half)  off the top of my head.

Yeah Paulino is pretty much a lock for AAA. Towles also has a chance at AAA next year. This was more just for fun to throw a hypothetical young team together according to the rules stated in the first post. I realize it is not realistic. I suppose the title is misleading.

Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 02:52:32 pm »
Have no problem with your rotation except Paulino will be at AAA more than likely.  You have 2 guys on your team who have not mastered Low A ball much less caught a whiff of High A ball (Clemens & Van Ostrand) and one who has had success at High A for a very short period of time and keeps being sent back down (Torres).

There are several guys I would move up ahead of them Sutil, and Johnson (depending on his second half)  off the top of my head.

This is one of my biggest beefs with the Astros. I do not understand this "play every single league before he can ever be brought up to the big leauges" mentality.

A typical college senior is 22 years old after 4 years of school. So say this player gets drafted after his senior year by the Astros. Lets say he starts at Tri-City and plays every level of the minors on the way to the big leauges. His age would follow a similar pattern;

Tri-City - 22/23
Lexington - 23/24
Salem - 24/25
Corpus - 25/26
Round Rock - 26/27

Even if he goes from Tri-City to Salem he is still 25/26 years old before he ever even has a chance to get brought up. I just don't agree. There are several players around the Majors that fly through the minor leagues. I would like to see the Astros push a few guys up faster.

Froback

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 02:58:55 pm »
I am sure that the Astros would move said player faster if it dictated it by his play.  Look at how fast Roy moved through the system.  Or Biggio.  Or even Pence.  The real issue is that unfortunately the Astros prospects have fallen flat more often then they have exceeded expectation.

ETA: Moving someone through the system faster does NOT mean they develop faster.

Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 03:12:53 pm »
I am sure that the Astros would move said player faster if it dictated it by his play.  Look at how fast Roy moved through the system.  Or Biggio.  Or even Pence.  The real issue is that unfortunately the Astros prospects have fallen flat more often then they have exceeded expectation.

ETA: Moving someone through the system faster does NOT mean they develop faster.
Pence is 24 years old. If Burke would not have played so terrible the first month this year, Pence would still be in AAA, turning 25 in April, and never having a taste of the big leagues as of yet. That makes me want to puke. Pence has been dominating everyone ever since high school and took way to long to be brought up. Thank God that Burke stumbled, and he got his chance. He is a great player.

No offense to you Mr. Froback Sir, but you are probably of an older generation and would like to see things done the way they have always been done. I just disagree. I am not alone either when I say that. Almost every credible publication / media has criticized the Astros for the same thing I am pointing out.

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 03:24:40 pm »
Pence is 24 years old. If Burke would not have played so terrible the first month this year, Pence would still be in AAA, turning 25 in April, and never having a taste of the big leagues as of yet. That makes me want to puke. Pence has been dominating everyone ever since high school and took way to long to be brought up. Thank God that Burke stumbled, and he got his chance. He is a great player.

No offense to you Mr. Froback Sir, but you are probably of an older generation and would like to see things done the way they have always been done. I just disagree. I am not alone either when I say that. Almost every credible publication / media has criticized the Astros for the same thing I am pointing out.

Read more.  Post less.  Pay attention and you might learn some things.  One of the things you may learn (especially on the main talk zone board which gets more action) is that the term "credible publication" is very nearly an oxymoron.  Here you will find that much (or even most) of the opinion is based on direct and knowledgeable observation ... not the stats pages.  You will also find a low tolerance for self-appointed experts who criticize the professionals without having established their own credibility.

If you have nothing left to learn feel free to forward your resume to the Astros.
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Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 03:35:16 pm »
Read more.  Post less.  Pay attention and you might learn some things.  One of the things you may learn (especially on the main talk zone board which gets more action) is that the term "credible publication" is very nearly an oxymoron.  Here you will find that much (or even most) of the opinion is based on direct and knowledgeable observation ... not the stats pages.  You will also find a low tolerance for self-appointed experts who criticize the professionals without having established their own credibility.

If you have nothing left to learn feel free to forward your resume to the Astros.

Well put and point taken.

By no means at all am I an expert, Nor did I ever claim to be. So maybe my opinions (also shared by others) are off base. I can live with that. Just a big fan here that enjoys reading this board.

Jacksonian

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 03:51:43 pm »
Pence has been dominating everyone ever since high school

No he didn't.  He didn't dominate AA.  He was wildly inconsistent in the first half and a .280 hitter in the second half.  Nothing he did last year portended his very successful 2007.

There's much more wrong with your assertions.

Who should have been brought up faster?  And, to replace what player?

I read and hear a lot of people say the Astros don't move players up fast enough.  The reality is those guys who beat the "usual" developmental curve are rare.  There's also something to this that the Astros haven't often drafted in the top 10.  The top 10 or so each year are your best bet to beat the developmental curve.
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Froback

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 04:58:30 pm »
Pence is 24 years old. If Burke would not have played so terrible the first month this year, Pence would still be in AAA, turning 25 in April, and never having a taste of the big leagues as of yet. That makes me want to puke. Pence has been dominating everyone ever since high school and took way to long to be brought up. Thank God that Burke stumbled, and he got his chance. He is a great player.

No offense to you Mr. Froback Sir, but you are probably of an older generation and would like to see things done the way they have always been done. I just disagree. I am not alone either when I say that. Almost every credible publication / media has criticized the Astros for the same thing I am pointing out.
Ok, I figure this might be lost on you, but Pence was drafted in 2004.  So that means he has been in the Astros system, exactly 3 years.  I think you would be hard pressed to find a ton of players who progess from the draft to the majors faster than that.  If I had to guess I would guess around 2-3 per team on average.  Also alot can be made for having a position to play, because Berkman was blocked when he was trying to break in to the ML roster, which is why he had to move to the OF, as Bagwell was at 1B.  So delays are not just about talent sometimes.

And has been pointed out, while Pence was the best postional prospect of the Astros, that does not mean as much as if he were the best of say the Dodgers system or something.  The Astros have a pretty empty system as far as postion players go, which is why they are ranked in the bottom 3rd of all baseball right now.  Pence showed signs of being pretty good, but nothing like what he has show to date in the majors.

As for me being part of a different generation, well, I never thought of myself as anything of the sort, but I have learned that you can screw up players by moving them too fast.  Pence had been marked for a while as a player likely to break in to the majors around this time.  Due to extenuating circumstances it wasn't supposed to be this year, but thankfully since he was brought up, he has succeeded.  That does not mean it works for everyone that way.  Jason Lane is a perfect example, as he was the MVP of every stop along his Minor league career and couldn't make it click in the majors.

That is why a minor league system exists.  The fact that people see success stories about people like Pujols and think every organization should pump one or two of those out every year is just silly.  People like that are very rare.

Look at Mitch Einertson, he tore it up his first year in Pro-ball and has been searching desperately to find that "magic" again.  Each player develops differently.  I am NOT against having an 18 year old on the major league club, provided he can produce and be consistent.  But Ken Griffey Jr doesn't come around every year.

Uncle Charlie

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 08:38:31 pm »
I did a quick glance at the 2004 draft and counted 6 players currently on the 25-man roster or MLB DL that were drafted ahead of Pence (late 2nd round).  Seems to me he was moved rather quickly.
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Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 08:39:46 pm »
No he didn't.  He didn't dominate AA.  He was wildly inconsistent in the first half and a .280 hitter in the second half.  Nothing he did last year portended his very successful 2007.

There's much more wrong with your assertions.

Who should have been brought up faster?  And, to replace what player?

I read and hear a lot of people say the Astros don't move players up fast enough.  The reality is those guys who beat the "usual" developmental curve are rare.  There's also something to this that the Astros haven't often drafted in the top 10.  The top 10 or so each year are your best bet to beat the developmental curve.

Although his .283 avg last year was not record breaking, I do not believe his avg. tells the whole story. As an earlier poster accused me of just looking at the stats and not actually having any direct observation. I did attend multiple Hooks games last year and can attest to the fact that several balls were hit very hard, but just did not find the holes and gaps needed to have an avg. above .300.

I do think avg. is a bit over hyped and would much rather look at his OPS which was .890. He had 28 long balls on the year as well. I will take those numbers any day of the week.

You are correct that he was inconsistent at times and a bit streaky. But then again this is baseball and who doesn't go through peaks and valleys at times.

Also you have to take a look at the Arizona Fall League that Pence participated in last year before being removed from the team because of an unfortunate incident everyone would like to forget ever happened. He hit .337 with an OPS of .943. That is some serious hitting.

You do make a very valid point when you say "who should have been brought up faster". There really wasn't anyone. Which kind of blows my whole theory out of the water.

I do think when it is all said and done that the Astros are probably somewhere between both of us. You have to admit that you would not mind a few more mid season promotions for players who are having good years.

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 09:02:10 pm »
You have to admit that you would not mind a few more mid season promotions for players who are having good years.

That's easy to wish for, but a lot harder to do.  Because of the composition of the 25-man roster, that's often going to mean releasing somebody (or exposing them to waivers) to make room for your mid-season promotion.  You'd better be real sure of the prospect if you're going to do that.
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Jacksonian

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 10:04:20 pm »
You have to admit that you would not mind a few more mid season promotions for players who are having good years.

Nope.  Those who deserve mid-season promotion, get it.  There are times, esp at AA that a player doing well isn't promoted.  Hirsh a couple of years ago is an example.  If you want to ride the Pence-wagon of last year too, fine.  Both weren't promoted because the Astros wanted them to get a good taste of winning/championship baseball.  The grind of a playoff run was good for both of them.

Below AA the Astros promote quite often.  Look at those who have moved this year.  Look at last year.  Heck Patton hasn't stayed at one level for several years.

Problem is, the Astros org hasn't had that many really good players.  Drafts of 99-03 weren't good.  04 was the best since the 98 Lidge draft.

Who would like promoted this year that hasn't been?
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Duman

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 10:11:34 pm »
  Heck Patton hasn't stayed at one level for several years.

Patton has never stayed at one level. 

04 Gville/Tri Cities
05 Lex/Salem
06 Salem/CC
07 CC/RR

Players who are playing well get promoted. 

Then there are the need promotions like Towles who was told to pack light for his trip to CC but has proved he is there to stay.  This is the second time he has benefited at Lou's expense.  He was driving to Tri Cities when he got the call to go to Lex when Lou was on the DL.
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Jacksonian

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2007, 08:45:43 am »
Patton has never stayed at one level. 

04 Gville/Tri Cities

In fairness the Tri-City promotion didn't come until after Greeneville won the championship.
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Duman

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 08:57:07 am »
You are correct.  I almost added that qualification in the post.  I think he had two appearances at Tri Cities.  One at the end of the regular season and one in their play offs. 

He also got to Greeneville late that year because of negotiations, so he really didn't get a full season in Greeneville.
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kevwun

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2007, 10:37:05 am »
Pence was going to get brought up to the Astros sometime this season as long as he played well at Round Rock.  The chances of Burke, Lane and Scott all hitting well this season were close to zero.

I used to think the Astros were overly careful with developing prospects, but I've changed my mind.  The reason that perception exists is because lately there haven't been very many prospects who were good enough to advance quickly.  Think back over the last few years, the good ones made it quickly.  This season, the Hooks roster looks a lot different than it did at the beginning of the season because several guys who were playing well at Salem have been promoted.  Iorg would probably also be in Corpus already also if he hadn't been injured.  We're seeing right now why Ensberg, Lane, Scott and Burke were called up relatively late.
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Moose Marathon

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Re: 2008 Hooks
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 11:10:35 am »
Pence was going to get brought up to the Astros sometime this season as long as he played well at Round Rock.  The chances of Burke, Lane and Scott all hitting well this season were close to zero.

I used to think the Astros were overly careful with developing prospects, but I've changed my mind.  The reason that perception exists is because lately there haven't been very many prospects who were good enough to advance quickly.  Think back over the last few years, the good ones made it quickly.  This season, the Hooks roster looks a lot different than it did at the beginning of the season because several guys who were playing well at Salem have been promoted.  Iorg would probably also be in Corpus already also if he hadn't been injured.  We're seeing right now why Ensberg, Lane, Scott and Burke were called up relatively late.

Now this makes sense. I totally buy what you are saying.