Author Topic: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)  (Read 20317 times)

LonghornCDR

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1208
    • View Profile
Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« on: July 15, 2007, 10:00:00 pm »
Just got back from a Newport Gulls game at Cardines Field in downtown Newport, RI. It was pure baseball and pure fun.  The players are just a bunch of college kids playing summer ball in the New England Collegiate Baseball League, honing their skills and hoping for a larger stage. No pros or real pro prospects, but pretty solid baseball talent.  It had a completely different vibe than minor league games or even college games that I've been to in the past.  Maybe it was that the kids seemed to feel less pressure.  I don't know.  I couldn't put my finger on it. 

Highly enjoyable, very low-key baseball experience. Extremely family friendly with lots of between innings games for the kids, but not too gimmicky.  Not to mention it was cheap, just four bucks to get in (two with a military ID) and the concessions were very reasonable, too.  I got in the gate and had a foot long dog with a large coke for 8 bucks.

One downcheck for most folks is that they don't sell beer in the park, but there is a great pub that has a deck that backs up to the right field fence, so you can hoist a few and watch the game there if beer is a huge part of your baseball ritual. 

I highly recommend the experience if you make it to the area. 
60% of the time... it works everytime.

Phil_in_CS

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 07:10:48 am »
Bryan got a team this year in the Texas Collegiate League. I agree with you - the games are run and cheap. A very good way to see if the kids are ready for a more expensive trip down to MM to see the big team. (verdict, maybe next year)

All the other teams in that League are up in DFW or north TX.

Taras Bulba

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3988
    • View Profile
    • Wing Attack Plan R
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 10:46:08 am »
Your post kind of reminded me of playing American Legion ball during the summers.  Great fun.  Our coach was a former minor league lifer who told us great stories and we played just for the hell of it.  Girlfriends to see after the game, hot summer nights...but I digress.
Purity of Essence

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 10:54:44 am »
Your post kind of reminded me of playing American Legion ball during the summers.  Great fun.  Our coach was a former minor league lifer who told us great stories and we played just for the hell of it.  Girlfriends to see after the game, hot summer nights...but I digress.

all the Elite Select Travel Team BS has killed American Legion baseball around here. too bad. it was very high level competition.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

JaneDoe

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 8603
  • Missing in Action
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 12:02:24 pm »
all the Elite Select Travel Team BS has killed American Legion baseball around here. too bad. it was very high level competition.

Yep, "Select ball" has hurt the Little League talent, too.  Even below average kids make the All-Star teams and the parents think their kid is "all that".  Then they get mad at the manager for not playing their kid more.  Very frustrating.
"My hammy is a little tight. I wish I was like Ausmus. He's Jewish and isn't allowed to have a pulled hamstring."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 12:12:58 pm »
Yep, "Select ball" has hurt the Little League talent, too.  Even below average kids make the All-Star teams and the parents think their kid is "all that".  Then they get mad at the manager for not playing their kid more.  Very frustrating.

Every Kid Is An All-Star. select ball has not done that. rescuing parents have.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 12:23:32 pm »
Happened upon a over 21 rec league baseball game on Friday.  The guys were having fun.  Although it wasn't as family friendly as you could hear the players cuss as they made mistakes.  BTW, it was free and there was no concession stand. 
Always ready to go to a game.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 02:17:36 pm »
Andy has played tournament--I guess that's select--ball this summer for the first time.  It's on a team put together from high school players, mostly from his high school but some from elsewhere.  It's expected, and American Legion isn't an option anymore that I know of.  There are still minor league coaches, though.

These are 16U teams, first and second year high schoolers, and the play seems very good--as long as the pitching is good.  Pitching falls apart fastest, and you can watch how hard it is for kids to recover from errors or runs.  It's like you're watching good players figure out for the first time how hard the game can be.

There are 4 to  6 hours of games every Saturday, and then games on Sunday.  Andy has pitched, mostly, and he's been perfectly happy hanging out with the other lefthander on the bench for 3 games to get his 3 innings on the mound. For the first time there's a definite division of labor. 

He mostly really wants, and loves, to play. My daughter suggests it's all about being cool.  If you are 15, and you're tall and lefthanded with curly hair and on the baseball team, in a Houston high school you are cool.  Still.  It's a good thing.   Everything but select ball seems dead, though, at least in the summer, and you're expected to play in the summer.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 02:19:34 pm »
Andy has played tournament--I guess that's select--ball this summer for the first time.  It's on a team put together from high school players, mostly from his high school but some from elsewhere.  It's expected, and American Legion isn't an option anymore that I know of.  There are still minor league coaches, though.

These are 16U teams, first and second year high schoolers, and the play seems very good--as long as the pitching is good.  Pitching falls apart fastest, and you can watch how hard it is for kids to recover from errors or runs.  It's like you're watching good players figure out for the first time how hard the game can be.

There are 4 to  6 hours of games every Saturday, and then games on Sunday.  Andy has pitched, mostly, and he's been perfectly happy hanging out with the other lefthander on the bench for 3 games to get his 3 innings on the mound. For the first time there's a definite division of labor. 

He mostly really wants, and loves, to play. My daughter suggests it's all about being cool.  If you are 15, and you're tall and lefthanded with curly hair and on the baseball team, in a Houston high school you are cool.  Still.  It's a good thing.   Everything but select ball seems dead, though, at least in the summer, and you're expected to play in the summer.

American Legion is gone from here. that is all i know. if there are no other leagues, then select ball has killed off the competition, and every player is "select." perfect.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 02:32:18 pm »
all the Elite Select Travel Team BS has killed American Legion baseball around here. too bad. it was very high level competition.

American Legion was highly competitive when I played.  Basically a 3-4 High School All-Star team.  It was fun too. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 02:33:18 pm »
Happened upon a over 21 rec league baseball game on Friday.  The guys were having fun.  Although it wasn't as family friendly as you could hear the players cuss as they made mistakes.  BTW, it was free and there was no concession stand. 


Ah...the Denial League.  Did I ever tell you I'm a legend there?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 02:42:47 pm »
They were using wood bats and I asked a lady when I got their (a players mom) "What league is this?"  and she said "I don't know but my son is the catcher".  Gotta love baseball moms.
Always ready to go to a game.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 03:31:46 pm »
American Legion is gone from here. that is all i know. if there are no other leagues, then select ball has killed off the competition, and every player is "select." perfect.

You're being sarcastic?  I don't know whether it's select or not--I guess the words still slip in, but it's kinda nonsensical.  It's just how Houston high school baseball players now play in the summer.   There were 60-some odd kids at the try-outs for Andy's team.  There's nowhere else to play.  Was it different when you coached in Austin, or did kids just not play outside the school season?

There are also fall leagues--there's a Pony league near us.  The sole purpose of those leagues seems to be to get ready for the spring, and May short leagues--Andy played 14 Pony games in 3 weeks in May--the sole purpose of which is to get in some baseball after the high school season, and before finals and summer starts. 

Actually, the 16u ball is pretty low-key, and it seems to be great instruction.  The big push is to get your kid on an 18U showcase team--there's one above Andy's team, but the two best known in our kneck of the woods are Kyle Chapman blue and red.  They usually produce 6 or 7 division 1 players and a couple of draftees most years.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 03:40:41 pm »
You're being sarcastic?  I don't know whether it's select or not--I guess the words still slip in, but it's kinda nonsensical.  It's just how Houston high school baseball players now play in the summer.   There were 60-some odd kids at the try-outs for Andy's team.  There's nowhere else to play.  Was it different when you coached in Austin, or did kids just not play outside the school season?

There are also fall leagues--there's a Pony league near us.  The sole purpose of those leagues seems to be to get ready for the spring, and May short leagues--Andy played 14 Pony games in 3 weeks in May--the sole purpose of which is to get in some baseball after the high school season, and before finals and summer starts. 

Actually, the 16u ball is pretty low-key, and it seems to be great instruction.  The big push is to get your kid on an 18U showcase team--there's one above Andy's team, but the two best known in our kneck of the woods are Kyle Chapman blue and red.  They usually produce 6 or 7 division 1 players and a couple of draftees most years.

the real PONY league plays in the spring and summer. fall ball for 13-14 may be called PONY league, but it is not the regular league.

low key? how much do you pay? how many games? how much travelling?

when i coached (and played) in Austin, American Legion was summer ball for HS players. every team in the District had a Legion team so it was a mirror of the HS season. the fee was minimal. travel was no different than the spring season, unless the team reached the playoffs. they season was playing each team twice, as i recall, and there was plenty of time for other activities.

fall baseball is a fairly recent development. it results some folks' idea that one must specialize in one sport to be good and play year round.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2007, 04:15:43 pm »
the real PONY league plays in the spring and summer. fall ball for 13-14 may be called PONY league, but it is not the regular league.

low key? how much do you pay? how many games? how much travelling?

when i coached (and played) in Austin, American Legion was summer ball for HS players. every team in the District had a Legion team so it was a mirror of the HS season. the fee was minimal. travel was no different than the spring season, unless the team reached the playoffs. they season was playing each team twice, as i recall, and there was plenty of time for other activities.

fall baseball is a fairly recent development. it results some folks' idea that one must specialize in one sport to be good and play year round.


No travel, really, unless you count Hitchcock and Baytown as travel.  There are a constant series of tournaments in the Houston area, and they play 3 to 5 games a weekend most weeks.  Most of the teams are put together out of high school teams, so I'm not sure if it's much different than what you saw with American Legion.  It doesn't mirror the high school season because there are multiple UIL districts around Houston, plus the private schools, so you're playing across district lines.  That and the huge growth in the number of high schools may have as much to do with American Legion's demise as anything.

Our cost is about $900 for uniforms, payment to the coaches, batting cage rentals and 6 or 7 tournaments.  I think we paid $800 for our daughter to go to choir camp at UT. 

The 18U teams travel quite a bit, I think.  There seems to be a trend towards college coaches hosting showcase tournaments. 
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 04:21:59 pm »

No travel, really, unless you count Hitchcock and Baytown as travel.  There are a constant series of tournaments in the Houston area, and they play 3 to 5 games a weekend most weeks.  Most of the teams are put together out of high school teams, so I'm not sure if it's much different than what you saw with American Legion.  It doesn't mirror the high school season because there are multiple UIL districts around Houston, plus the private schools, so you're playing across district lines.  That and the huge growth in the number of high schools may have as much to do with American Legion's demise as anything.

Our cost is about $900 for uniforms, payment to the coaches, batting cage rentals and 6 or 7 tournaments.  I think we paid $800 for our daughter to go to choir camp at UT. 

The 18U teams travel quite a bit, I think.  There seems to be a trend towards college coaches hosting showcase tournaments. 


$900 for summer baseball is ridiculously expensive, imo, not to mention the time commitment. paying coaches? why?

3-5 games each weekend for how many weekends?

i'm not saying that there aren't more expensive leagues, but good grief!

« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 04:23:31 pm by JimR »
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 04:57:04 pm »
$900 for summer baseball is ridiculously expensive, imo, not to mention the time commitment. paying coaches? why?

3-5 games each weekend for how many weekends?

i'm not saying that there aren't more expensive leagues, but good grief!



Tough for me to judge the expense, or whether coaches should be paid.  I guess I'm used to club soccer, where you always pay a trainer, who is separate from the manager.  We paid about $450 a season per family for 11-year olds, as I recall.  Division 1 was always much more expensive than division 2, maybe $1200?  I think that's what I remember from talks with dads.  The coaches usually know squat about soccer, and the trainers always come from Brazil or Africa or some damn place. 

It doesn't bother me to pay coaches, they're mostly 30-something former minor leaguers or college players, and they do everything from finding practice fields to getting tournaments.  I gather that tournament fees usually run $450 or so, and there are 6 or 7 during the summer.   Games are less than 2 hours, so you're talking 4-6 hours of baseball most Saturdays, and then some more Sunday. 

There are no more expensive leagues:  there are no leagues.  As far as I know there is only this.

When you played American Legion ball, what do you think the fee was?  $25?  Taking into account the present value of money at 2.75%, that's about $8727.53.  That's pretty expensive for summer ball.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 05:22:28 pm »
Tough for me to judge the expense, or whether coaches should be paid.  I guess I'm used to club soccer, where you always pay a trainer, who is separate from the manager.  We paid about $450 a season per family for 11-year olds, as I recall.  Division 1 was always much more expensive than division 2, maybe $1200?  I think that's what I remember from talks with dads.  The coaches usually know squat about soccer, and the trainers always come from Brazil or Africa or some damn place. 

It doesn't bother me to pay coaches, they're mostly 30-something former minor leaguers or college players, and they do everything from finding practice fields to getting tournaments.  I gather that tournament fees usually run $450 or so, and there are 6 or 7 during the summer.   Games are less than 2 hours, so you're talking 4-6 hours of baseball most Saturdays, and then some more Sunday. 

There are no more expensive leagues:  there are no leagues.  As far as I know there is only this.

When you played American Legion ball, what do you think the fee was?  $25?  Taking into account the present value of money at 2.75%, that's about $8727.53.  That's pretty expensive for summer ball.

ok, Neil. never mind.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 05:24:01 pm »
ok, Neil. never mind.

Joke, Jim.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 05:41:24 pm »
Ah...the Denial League.  Did I ever tell you I'm a legend there?

Yup, you get your likeness scratched on the port-o-potty wall in crayon iffin' you're a legend.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 05:48:32 pm by Noe in Austin »

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 10:13:41 am »
Joke, Jim.

We sold coupon books when I played legion.  We had to sell 45 of those things at 10 bucks a piece or we would have to pay the difference.  I lived in Montana most of my high school life and so travel was a huge part of it.  We had a bus that broke down every single trip so we took to having our parents drive us on most trips.  If we had to travel a long distance to Miles City or Great Falls, about a 4 or 5 hours drive, we would stay overnight which was always fun because we would haze the rooks.  Nothing violent, just shave their legs or eyebrows or something.  We played a tournament in Canada that had some great teams there like Taiwan and Orange County who had Aaron Boone on the their team.  He was the best player I ever played against.  It was a fun time.

I played in a Connie Mack league when I was 17 and 18.  There was a lot of travel in that and I was asked to play on that team.  Not sure how much my folks had to fork over.   
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 10:25:28 am »
So, I have a 4 year old son, and while catch and hitting off a tee are about the limits in his current interest in baseball (damn you Optimus Prime) this select league bullshit is something I have to start paying attention to.

Are there any redeeming qualities to the select leagues?  Are Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth still around, and are they still viable?

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 10:32:41 am »
So, I have a 4 year old son, and while catch and hitting off a tee are about the limits in his current interest in baseball (damn you Optimus Prime) this select league bullshit is something I have to start paying attention to.

Are there any redeeming qualities to the select leagues?  Are Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth still around, and are they still viable?

My 6 year old wants to play this spring.  Go here: http://eteamz.active.com/llb/finder/index.cfm?region=9&district=all&state=43 to find if there is a Little League near you (Texas specific list).
Goin' for a bus ride.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 10:34:52 am »
So, I have a 4 year old son, and while catch and hitting off a tee are about the limits in his current interest in baseball (damn you Optimus Prime) this select league bullshit is something I have to start paying attention to.

Are there any redeeming qualities to the select leagues?  Are Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth still around, and are they still viable?

I don't know where you live but I know there is Little League in Kingwood, North Shore and Bellaire. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2007, 10:37:00 am »
So, I have a 4 year old son, and while catch and hitting off a tee are about the limits in his current interest in baseball (damn you Optimus Prime) this select league bullshit is something I have to start paying attention to.

Are there any redeeming qualities to the select leagues?  Are Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth still around, and are they still viable?

Little League is alive and well in Austin. believe it or not, there are "select" leagues for 7 year olds. parents who buy that nonsense probly also have lots of swampland under contract.

in Austin, there are PONY leagues, but they have been hurt badly by the travel team bs.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 10:43:07 am »
I don't know where you live but I know there is Little League in Kingwood, North Shore and Bellaire. 

I live in Spring Shadows, right behind Baseball USA. 

Growing up in Houston, I played at Oak's Dads (IIRC was Babe Ruth), Candlelight (Pony) and Inwood Dads (Pony).  But it was pretty much, you showed up, threw some, hit some, got drafted and played on that team.  If the coach stuck around for the next season, you probably were going to play on the same team as the year before.  That was the extent of the selection going on in the late 70's - early 80's.  That and the ever important suicide or sno-cone selection.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 10:46:35 am »
So, I have a 4 year old son, and while catch and hitting off a tee are about the limits in his current interest in baseball (damn you Optimus Prime) this select league bullshit is something I have to start paying attention to.

Are there any redeeming qualities to the select leagues?  Are Little League, Pony League, Babe Ruth still around, and are they still viable?

There are little leagues.  This year, my 7 year old played on two teams.  One rec team and one travel team (not interested in swampland Jim). 

Loved the travel team.  The skill level of the players improved dramatically because we actually had practice.  Coaches were free because their kids were playing but they were balanced about playing time and open to have a civil discussion if they made a move you were curious about.  All but two of our tourneys were within an  1 1/2 hours drive.  The parents made the decision to keep cost down at this age.  Most of the tourney's were free for this age group as well.  We did some fund raising locally to off set some cost.  This will get more expensive as he gets older but right now, it is our preferred method and is our son's preferred team. 

The rec team was a train wreck.  About a 3rd of the kids don't want to be there.  The coaching was limited because there were only 2 practices all year. Parents were hollering stuff at their kids.  Playing time and position is based on who the coaches kids were.  Also didn't like using the pitching machine (wheel type).  Probably wont do this league next year. 

These observations are location specific, if we had a better rec league, we might not be doing the travel team.
Always ready to go to a game.

Kent's Moustache

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 10:47:15 am »
American Legion ball was the show when I played in Louisiana.  As some mentioned, we grouped players from 1-2 high schools and played under the banner of cosmopolitan sponsors such as Moore's Tire & Service and Fertitta's Grocery.

In the past 10-20 years, the north Louisiana American Legion chapter has produced a number of names familiar to baseball fans, including Todd Walker, Jays closer B.J. Ryan, former Astro and current Hook Todd Self, and Twins pitcher Scott Baker.

As the presence of the aforementioned players suggests, the quality of play was always very high.
"Go play intramurals, brother.  Go play intramurals..."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2007, 10:55:19 am »
There are little leagues.  This year, my 7 year old played on two teams.  One rec team and one travel team (not interested in swampland Jim). 

Loved the travel team.  The skill level of the players improved dramatically because we actually had practice.  Coaches were free because their kids were playing but they were balanced about playing time and open to have a civil discussion if they made a move you were curious about.  All but two of our tourneys were within an  1 1/2 hours drive.  The parents made the decision to keep cost down at this age.  Most of the tourney's were free for this age group as well.  We did some fund raising locally to off set some cost.  This will get more expensive as he gets older but right now, it is our preferred method and is our son's preferred team. 

The rec team was a train wreck.  About a 3rd of the kids don't want to be there.  The coaching was limited because there were only 2 practices all year. Parents were hollering stuff at their kids.  Playing time and position is based on who the coaches kids were.  Also didn't like using the pitching machine (wheel type).  Probably wont do this league next year. 

These observations are location specific, if we had a better rec league, we might not be doing the travel team.

neighborhood teams do not have to be "train wrecks." the ones i coached practiced regularly but not every day. my players improved, too, and their parents did not have to give up their summers to effect improvement or pay me to coach them. i set rules for my players AND for their parents and enforced them. if you think "daddyball" is limited to "rec" teams, just wait.

my point is that parents do not have to commit an entire summer to one child's sport AND spend lots of money to get benefits from kids' sports. the folks benefitting most from this trend are the ones who are collecting the money. they are selling parents the myth that this route is the only way to be a starter in HS, to a scholarship and/or to a pro career. that is total nonsense.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2007, 11:03:06 am »
neighborhood teams do not have to be "train wrecks." the ones i coached practiced regularly but not every day. my players improved, too, and their parents did not have to give up their summers to effect improvement or pay me to coach them. i set rules for my players AND for their parents and enforced them. if you think "daddyball" is limited to "rec" teams, just wait.

my point is that parents do not have to commit an entire summer to one child's sport AND spend lots of money to get benefits from kids' sports. the folks benefitting most from this trend are the ones who are collecting the money. they are selling parents the myth that this route is the only way to be a starter in HS, to a scholarship and/or to a pro career. that is total nonsense.

I don't have any kids so I'm just going from what I hear from folks in my neighborhood but it's pretty political out there Jim.  It's becoming more and more that the parents do have to be known and the kids have to be seen a lot and play on a lot of teams to get a look for the high school team.  This could just be a gripe from parents who's kids aren't as good as the kids that play but I sure hear it from a lot of people.  I like going to high school games and I go to a lot and hear this all the time. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

strosrays

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2007, 11:07:44 am »
I played in a Connie Mack league when I was 17 and 18.  There was a lot of travel in that and I was asked to play on that team.  Not sure how much my folks had to fork over.

I played Connie Mack ball, but it wasn't nearly this organized.  In fact, it was about one step above the pickup games we played in the schoolyards when I was a kid.

Our coach was kind of a Buttermaker type.  He was an ex-minor leaguer, and knew his baseball, but he was drunk half the time and more.  He ended up missing a lot of practices and games because he was hungover or in the middle of a two-day poker game.  Our pitcher was our de facto manager in those instances, which was kind of funny, because he was a serious stoner with a violent physical temper (he tended to throw things) and was not very organized either.  But he was bigger than the rest of us, so. . . He could fucking pitch, too, whether he was high or not.  We played most of our games on a field next to a Southern Pacific switching yard, so you had kind of a LaGuardia effect, with these big freight trains going by every ten minutes or so; plus it was so dark that outfielders often misjudged fly balls, if they saw them coming at all.  The "batter's-eye" background was a mercury vapor spotlight by the train tracks, so hitting there was an interesting experience, as well.  Very few parents, or anyone else, attended the games.  We had fun, though.

When I was 18 we somehow or another made it into the second or third tier of the playoffs.  No coach, no parental support, no equipment to speak of supplied to us, an interesting and eclectic mix of uniforms -- we had been supplied a jersey, white with red sleeves and number, but after that everyone was on their own, sartorially speaking.  Most of us just completed our uniforms with stuff we had left over from senior league or high school.  I think I had grey pants, yellow high-cut stirrups (sanitaries underneath, of course), a blue undershirt, and orange belt.

We took it all in our stride at the time, but when I think about it now, it is amazing to me we did as well as we did.  I do think it was the most fun I ever had playing "organized" baseball.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2007, 11:10:26 am »
Little League is alive and well in Austin. believe it or not, there are "select" leagues for 7 year olds. parents who buy that nonsense probly also have lots of swampland under contract.

in Austin, there are PONY leagues, but they have been hurt badly by the travel team bs.


7-year old select teams crack me up.  7-year olds can't even hold their glove up.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2007, 11:11:10 am »
I don't have any kids so I'm just going from what I hear from folks in my neighborhood but it's pretty political out there Jim.  It's becoming more and more that the parents do have to be known and the kids have to be seen a lot and play on a lot of teams to get a look for the high school team.  This could just be a gripe from parents who's kids aren't as good as the kids that play but I sure hear it from a lot of people.  I like going to high school games and I go to a lot and hear this all the time. 

Politics and parents.  If a kid moves into town and can flat out play, his high school coach is going to start him despite the kid never having played in the local select league.
Goin' for a bus ride.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2007, 11:12:02 am »
The rec team was a train wreck.  About a 3rd of the kids don't want to be there.  The coaching was limited because there were only 2 practices all year. Parents were hollering stuff at their kids.  Playing time and position is based on who the coaches kids were.  Also didn't like using the pitching machine (wheel type).  Probably wont do this league next year. 


Part of the problem is that 7 is too young to be trying to play anything that resembles baseball. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2007, 11:13:18 am »
American Legion ball was the show when I played in Louisiana.  As some mentioned, we grouped players from 1-2 high schools and played under the banner of cosmopolitan sponsors such as Moore's Tire & Service and Fertitta's Grocery.


You weren't sponsored by the American Legion Post?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2007, 11:14:33 am »
I don't have any kids so I'm just going from what I hear from folks in my neighborhood but it's pretty political out there Jim.  It's becoming more and more that the parents do have to be known and the kids have to be seen a lot and play on a lot of teams to get a look for the high school team.  This could just be a gripe from parents who's kids aren't as good as the kids that play but I sure hear it from a lot of people.  I like going to high school games and I go to a lot and hear this all the time. 


I hear this all the time, and I think it's BS.  You hear that from parents who think their kids are superstars, but are not.  It's sour grapes, nothing more. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2007, 11:15:53 am »
I don't have any kids so I'm just going from what I hear from folks in my neighborhood but it's pretty political out there Jim.  It's becoming more and more that the parents do have to be known and the kids have to be seen a lot and play on a lot of teams to get a look for the high school team.  This could just be a gripe from parents who's kids aren't as good as the kids that play but I sure hear it from a lot of people.  I like going to high school games and I go to a lot and hear this all the time. 

that is total nonsense. i'd wager you are hearing that from parents whose kids are on the bench. ALL coaches want to win, and they will play the best players to win. their may be occasional exception, but i'm calling BS on that one.

"politics" is the sour-grapes response of someone who got beat out.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2007, 11:18:23 am »
Politics and parents.  If a kid moves into town and can flat out play, his high school coach is going to start him despite the kid never having played in the local select league.


Exactly.  It's been a while, but that was my case.  I tried out for the HS team here in TX 3 days after moving here.  After 3 days of tryouts, they said "you're on the team kid".  I was 15 years old and not a single coach, teacher, school administrator, local LL coach, player or umpire had ever seen or heard of me. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2007, 11:21:00 am »
that is total nonsense. i'd wager you are hearing that from parents whose kids are on the bench. ALL coaches want to win, and they will play the best players to win. their may be occasional exception, but i'm calling BS on that one.

"politics" is the sour-grapes response of someone who got beat out.

This is probably true. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2007, 11:21:50 am »

Exactly.  It's been a while, but that was my case.  I tried out for the HS team here in TX 3 days after moving here.  After 3 days of tryouts, they said "you're on the team kid".  I was 15 years old and not a single coach, teacher, school administrator, local LL coach, player or umpire had ever seen or heard of me. 

That's not possible.  Who hasn't heard of you?
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2007, 11:23:43 am »
That's not possible.  Who hasn't heard of you?

I started out in anonymity.  I had to earn my reputation the old fashioned way. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

das

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3465
    • View Profile
    • Faith Home Ministries
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2007, 11:45:24 am »
I had to earn my reputation the old fashioned way. 
By droning on and on about oil rig drilling costs?
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2007, 11:46:20 am »
By droning on and on about oil rig drilling costs?

That just how I stay sharp.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2007, 12:15:15 pm »
There are little leagues, but it depends on which side of town you're in.  Andy played in Oaks Dads for tee ball at 7, then we moved into West U LL's territory.  West U had spring rolls from whole foods at the concession stand, which suited us just fine.

Lots of kids start at 5.  Oaks Dad's was independent, and I don't think I'd recommend it anymore.  A lot of our friends' kids from the north side played Timbergrove, which is very good, and covers the same area.  No spring rolls.

West U LL was great in it's way, but had its mix of the good stuff and the bad stuff.  Andy never had a terrible coach, really, but he had some obsessed coaches, and a mediocre coach or 2, and some really good coaches.  He was on some very good teams.  I'd rate his experience very high.  

There is a Kyle Chapman Pony League on the West side which is also very good.  Bellaire and Post Oak have good little leagues.  If you haven't read Little League Confidential, it's pretty funny.  There are probably an equal number of whacked coaches to whacked parents.

The little leagues all produced tournament teams that went year round from 8 or 9 up.  It was pretty common at West U to have lessons, and it's quite a cottage industry here in Houston.

I think Little League costs, after the candy sales, and not counting the lessons and contributions for batting cages, but including the $15 for the practice tee shirt, are about $200 a season.  There's also a gala, and of course your business is going to be asked to sponsor.  Little League bats now run what, $70-$150?  The cheap high school bats are $190?  And then of course you've got to go to Rice for summer camp for at least one week, and maybe 2.

High school ball in Houston is very strange to me, just because of the tremendous number of kids who play.  Bellaire has 3 sophomore teams, Lamar 2.  We sat through a bunch of games at Kyle Chapman earlier this year, and listened to parents much more in the know than us explain the Bellaire high school funding scandal, and the Episcopal High School flare up over summer camp fees, and also explain how the real power houses are out in the suburbs, The Woodlands, Kingwood, Cy-Fair . . .  Houston Christian, on the North Side, now has a tremendous advantage on recruiting out of Baseball USA.  So yeah, high school coaches know a lot of kids early on, and it plays a part.  And I'd guess the suburbs have had a lot to do with the death of American Legion.

This is kinda interesting:

http://www.kylechapman.com/

Andy pitched part of a shut out with one of the drafted kid's younger brothers earlier this year--it was maybe as good of a pitched youth game as I've seen.  The kid was from the Woodlands, so on a May school night his parents had driven him 100 miles round-trip to pitch 4 innings in a made-up, non-league ball game.  They were playing a "volunteer" team of Bellaire High sophomores and freshman.  That's Houston baseball right now.

HH, I'd guess in the 20 years since you played high school ball, the quality of the average houston player has improved considerably, and the number of potential players in any given high school has quadrupled.  Just a guess.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Kent's Moustache

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2007, 12:20:31 pm »

You weren't sponsored by the American Legion Post?

The Post sponsored the league, i.e., fields, umps, etc., but each team had its own sponsor(s) for uniforms, equipment, travel, etc.

Unfortunately for me, my Legion participation always got short-circuited by summer football practice and August two-a-days.  My Legion teammates gave me hell for bailing on them (sarcastically, of course, since I wasn't really that good), but I gave it back to them for being pussies and not playing football.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 12:22:39 pm by Kent's Moustache »
"Go play intramurals, brother.  Go play intramurals..."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2007, 12:31:58 pm »
There are little leagues, but it depends on which side of town you're in.  Andy played in Oaks Dads for tee ball at 7, then we moved into West U LL's territory.  West U had spring rolls from whole foods at the concession stand, which suited us just fine.

Lots of kids start at 5.  Oaks Dad's was independent, and I don't think I'd recommend it anymore.  A lot of our friends' kids from the north side played Timbergrove, which is very good, and covers the same area.  No spring rolls.

West U LL was great in it's way, but had its mix of the good stuff and the bad stuff.  Andy never had a terrible coach, really, but he had some obsessed coaches, and a mediocre coach or 2, and some really good coaches.  He was on some very good teams.  I'd rate his experience very high.  

There is a Kyle Chapman Pony League on the West side which is also very good.  Bellaire and Post Oak have good little leagues.  If you haven't read Little League Confidential, it's pretty funny.  There are probably an equal number of whacked coaches to whacked parents.

The little leagues all produced tournament teams that went year round from 8 or 9 up.  It was pretty common at West U to have lessons, and it's quite a cottage industry here in Houston.

I think Little League costs, after the candy sales, and not counting the lessons and contributions for batting cages, but including the $15 for the practice tee shirt, are about $200 a season.  There's also a gala, and of course your business is going to be asked to sponsor.  Little League bats now run what, $70-$150?  The cheap high school bats are $190?  And then of course you've got to go to Rice for summer camp for at least one week, and maybe 2.

High school ball in Houston is very strange to me, just because of the tremendous number of kids who play.  Bellaire has 3 sophomore teams, Lamar 2.  We sat through a bunch of games at Kyle Chapman earlier this year, and listened to parents much more in the know than us explain the Bellaire high school funding scandal, and the Episcopal High School flare up over summer camp fees, and also explain how the real power houses are out in the suburbs, The Woodlands, Kingwood, Cy-Fair . . .  Houston Christian, on the North Side, now has a tremendous advantage on recruiting out of Baseball USA.  So yeah, high school coaches know a lot of kids early on, and it plays a part.  And I'd guess the suburbs have had a lot to do with the death of American Legion.

This is kinda interesting:

http://www.kylechapman.com/

Andy pitched part of a shut out with one of the drafted kid's younger brothers earlier this year--it was maybe as good of a pitched youth game as I've seen.  The kid was from the Woodlands, so on a May school night his parents had driven him 100 miles round-trip to pitch 4 innings in a made-up, non-league ball game.  They were playing a "volunteer" team of Bellaire High sophomores and freshman.  That's Houston baseball right now.

HH, I'd guess in the 20 years since you played high school ball, the quality of the average houston player has improved considerably, and the number of potential players in any given high school has quadrupled.  Just a guess.

spring rolls in a LL concession stand...funny, it is exactly as i imagined your LL would be.

the reason for all those teams in HS is so parents will not be able to bitch early when their kids get cut. it is a variation of the "every kid is an all star" principle, which evolved from the "every kid gets a trophy" rule. all those teams funnel into ONE varsity team so the lesser among them eventually will be cut. it merely postpones the allegations of "coach politics."

not sure i'd agree with either of your statements to HH, but i'd have to think about it. i coached HS baseball from 1968-75 and again in 1995-97. i do not think much changed, either in kids' talent or in number of potential players, at least at the varsity level.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2007, 12:59:15 pm »
spring rolls in a LL concession stand...funny, it is exactly as i imagined your LL would be.

the reason for all those teams in HS is so parents will not be able to bitch early when their kids get cut. it is a variation of the "every kid is an all star" principle, which evolved from the "every kid gets a trophy" rule. all those teams funnel into ONE varsity team so the lesser among them eventually will be cut. it merely postpones the allegations of "coach politics."

not sure i'd agree with either of your statements to HH, but i'd have to think about it. i coached HS baseball from 1968-75 and again in 1995-97. i do not think much changed, either in kids' talent or in number of potential players, at least at the varsity level.

I like spring rolls, and it was a good little league.  We had a lot of fun as parents, and our son had a good experience.  It was a big part of the community, and there was good baseball.  Isn't that your gripe about select teams?

No doubt the Bellaire coaches are putting off the cut, but none of those kids are bad, either, at least that I've seen.  It's probably ok for high schools to give all of those kids a chance to play for awhile whether they'll make the varsity or not, right?  My point is that I doubt there were 3 teams worth of kids interested in baseball at those high schools  20 years ago, much less good enough to play reasonably well, and I don't know if you can compare baseball in Austin, even today, to high school baseball in Houston right now.  The best may not be any better, but I suspect the pretty good goes a whole lot deeper.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2007, 01:11:57 pm »
HH, I'd guess in the 20 years since you played high school ball, the quality of the average houston player has improved considerably, and the number of potential players in any given high school has quadrupled.  Just a guess.


I don't buy that.  The number of players has quadrupled because each school has 4 or 5 teams now.  But the quality of the players hasn't improved *that* much.  I think the elite players are better now at that age, but the scrubs are still scrubs.  It's just that mediocre kids who wouldn't have made the HS team 20 years ago are now thinking they are really being scouted just because they pay to go to summer camps.  It used to be that the best 15 players played on the HS team.  Period.  That was it.  Not everyone made the team, and that's just the way it was.  Nowadays, they create spots and additional teams so that kids can continue to play.  That doesn't mean they are better players.  A lot of this has to do with the attitude that they paid money on select teams; therefore, they've "earned" the right to play HS ball. 

Last year, I played on a summer team with a bunch of recent HS grads (A friend of mine was coaching them and late in the summer they lost a couple of players heading off to college.  They needed someone to come out and catch.  The league didn't want them bringing in any "ringors", so the league OKed me).  They were all players from Kingwood and Humble high schools, who had recently graduated.  Besides the fact that I'd forgotten that 18-year olds never shut up, I was relatively unimpressed.  They were good players, but nowhere near the level they thought they should have been.  They were no better than the players I played with in HS, and in many cases, they were not as good.  Some of them would not have made a HS team 20 years ago.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2007, 01:14:03 pm »
The Post sponsored the league, i.e., fields, umps, etc., but each team had its own sponsor(s) for uniforms, equipment, travel, etc.

Oh, OK.  Everything was sponsored by the legion post when I played.  I assumed it was that way everywhere, but I guess not.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2007, 01:16:56 pm »
My point is that I doubt there were 3 teams worth of kids interested in baseball at those high schools  20 years ago, much less good enough to play reasonably well,


Of course there were.  There were hundreds of kids trying out for a handful of spots.  The difference wasn't a lack of interest, it was that not every kid made it.  They cut players in those days.  Little coddling too.  It was "when I call your name, go over to the cage.  If you dont' hear your name called, thanks and try again next year".  There were three rounds of this.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2007, 01:17:07 pm »
I like spring rolls, and it was a good little league.  We had a lot of fun as parents, and our son had a good experience.  It was a big part of the community, and there was good baseball.  Isn't that your gripe about select teams?

No doubt the Bellaire coaches are putting off the cut, but none of those kids are bad, either, at least that I've seen.  It's probably ok for high schools to give all of those kids a chance to play for awhile whether they'll make the varsity or not, right?  My point is that I doubt there were 3 teams worth of kids interested in baseball at those high schools  20 years ago, much less good enough to play reasonably well, and I don't know if you can compare baseball in Austin, even today, to high school baseball in Houston right now.  The best may not be any better, but I suspect the pretty good goes a whole lot deeper.

oh, my. arrogant often?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2007, 01:19:32 pm »

I don't buy that.  The number of players has quadrupled because each school has 4 or 5 teams now.  But the quality of the players hasn't improved *that* much.  I think the elite players are better now at that age, but the scrubs are still scrubs.  It's just that mediocre kids who wouldn't have made the HS team 20 years ago are now thinking they are really being scouted just because they pay to go to summer camps.  It used to be that the best 15 players played on the HS team.  Period.  That was it.  Not everyone made the team, and that's just the way it was.  Nowadays, they create spots and additional teams so that kids can continue to play.  That doesn't mean they are better players.  A lot of this has to do with the attitude that they paid money on select teams; therefore, they've "earned" the right to play HS ball. 


this paragraph could not be more correct.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

astrox

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 734
  • Evan's Guitar
    • View Profile
    • tinyeblog.blogspot.com
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2007, 01:23:07 pm »
the reason for all those teams in HS is so parents will not be able to bitch early when their kids get cut. it is a variation of the "every kid is an all star" principle, which evolved from the "every kid gets a trophy" rule. all those teams funnel into ONE varsity team so the lesser among them eventually will be cut. it merely postpones the allegations of "coach politics."

Just curious, Jim, but do you disagree with the philosophy that at the lower levels every kid should play?  My 7 year old finishes YMCA ball tonight, and that is how they do it.  I agree with it because a kid can't learn the game if he's not playing.

The "trophy" rule, while seemingly nonsensical to us, was a big hit with the kids.  Giving them a little something for all their hard work is well worth it, imo, since they don't track wins/losses at that level.

The costs for YMCA was $120 for uniform/administrative fees, 20 bucks for the trophies/coaches' gifts, and 12 bucks for an "official" team photo.

I know that's one of the cheaper routes, but it's still a bit steep for me.

News that is sufficiently bad somehow carries its own guarantee of truth.  Only good reports need confirmation.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2007, 01:27:23 pm »
Just curious, Jim, but do you disagree with the philosophy that at the lower levels every kid should play?  My 7 year old finishes YMCA ball tonight, and that is how they do it.  I agree with it because a kid can't learn the game if he's not playing.

i very much agree with it all the way up to HS. at that level, competition should kick in, but the current trend is to postpone reality until time to make the varsity team.

trophies for everyone? why? if there is no keeping score, just playing, why should anyone need anything other than the joy of playing?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2007, 01:29:47 pm »
Just curious, Jim, but do you disagree with the philosophy that at the lower levels every kid should play?  My 7 year old finishes YMCA ball tonight, and that is how they do it.  I agree with it because a kid can't learn the game if he's not playing.

The "trophy" rule, while seemingly nonsensical to us, was a big hit with the kids.  Giving them a little something for all their hard work is well worth it, imo, since they don't track wins/losses at that level.

The costs for YMCA was $120 for uniform/administrative fees, 20 bucks for the trophies/coaches' gifts, and 12 bucks for an "official" team photo.

I know that's one of the cheaper routes, but it's still a bit steep for me.




Not Jim, but we seem to think along similar lines here...I think it's important for kids at the lower levels to play, and there's nothing wrong with trophies and rewards for every kid, as long as it's kept in perspective.  Play at that level should be about having fun, learning some of the fundementals of the game, and improving overall athletic skills.  7-year olds should not be divided into the haves and have-nots at that age, and the idea that you can motivate kids with select teams and thoughts of professional glory is laughable.  7-year olds are motivated by sno-cones, not free agency.  There comes a time when kids must understand that there is a division to be made and some will move on and some will wind up their careers.  But 7 is not that age.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2007, 01:30:15 pm »
trophies for everyone? why? if there is no keeping score, just playing, why should anyone need anything other than the joy of playing?

Well said
Always ready to go to a game.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2007, 01:31:06 pm »

Of course there were.  There were hundreds of kids trying out for a handful of spots.  The difference wasn't a lack of interest, it was that not every kid made it.  They cut players in those days.  Little coddling too.  It was "when I call your name, go over to the cage.  If you dont' hear your name called, thanks and try again next year".  There were three rounds of this.

They cut them now, too, even if it's junior year and not freshman.  I think you're reversing the motivation for most of the select team stuff--parents and kids know there are cuts, and that by senior year there will be 18 kids on the varsity.  Most of these kids are just trying to stay on the team.  

Were the kids you were playing with the good high school players or were they the scrubs?
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2007, 01:34:50 pm »
trophies for everyone? why? if there is no keeping score, just playing, why should anyone need anything other than the joy of playing?

I don't really have a problem with it, esp at the younger ages, because at least for my son, it's a reminder of the fun he had playing.
Goin' for a bus ride.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2007, 01:35:43 pm »
oh, my. arrogant often?

Arrogant how?  Jim, I know you know arrogance, but I'm only voicing suspicion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2007, 01:37:18 pm »
Were the kids you were playing with the good high school players or were they the scrubs?

Most of them were starters on HS varsity teams, I think.  A few were probably scrubs.  Most of them were average to pretty good HS players, but not elite.  One I know one has gone on to play in college.

And I'm not doubting there is a tremendous amount of talent out there in Houston right now, and I agree that the elite players nowadays are more polished than they were back in my day.  But the average amount of talent out there per capita has changed little, IMO.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2007, 01:37:45 pm »
I don't really have a problem with it, esp at the younger ages, because at least for my son, it's a reminder of the fun he had playing.

really? i have a room at my house full of those meaningless trophies leagues handed out to my kids. i doubt seriously either of them thinks even occasionally about them. they probably do remember good times and good teammates and good teams without the help of a trophy that everyone got.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2007, 01:39:30 pm »

Of course there were.  There were hundreds of kids trying out for a handful of spots.  The difference wasn't a lack of interest, it was that not every kid made it.  They cut players in those days.  Little coddling too.  It was "when I call your name, go over to the cage.  If you dont' hear your name called, thanks and try again next year".  There were three rounds of this.

The cuts now are done on the internet, by the way. 
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2007, 01:41:10 pm »
A lot of this has to do with the attitude that they paid money on select teams; therefore, they've "earned" the right to play HS ball. 

The perception that select teams create an advantage goes beyond the parents and kids participating on those teams, it's also a major deterrent to kids that do not play on a select teams while growing up. I've had discussions with a couple high school coaches in Katy and they have both said that the P.E. classes are filled with talented kids that won't try out for baseball because they think their classmates that played on select teams are better than them and will automatically make the team. Which, in most cases couldn't be further from the truth.

Jim & HH, I could not agree more with everything you have said on this subject.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2007, 01:42:52 pm »
The cuts now are done on the internet, by the way. 


Geez, that's worse than yelling in front of everyone "Hudson...you're free to go!"
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2007, 01:44:14 pm »

Geez, that's worse than yelling in front of everyone "Hudson...you're free to go!"

Yeah
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JackAstro

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3824
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2007, 01:44:49 pm »
really? i have a room at my house full of those meaningless trophies leagues handed out to my kids. i doubt seriously either of them thinks even occasionally about them. they probably do remember good times and good teammates and good teams without the help of a trophy that everyone got.

I think you're right that they have no real lasting value. I don't have any of that crap from when I was a kid, but I have tons of great memories from the leagues. That said, I don't have any of my toys, either, and I liked those quite a bit when I was a kid.

My older son likes the couple of shiny baubles he's gotten so far. I don't have any problem with it, because it's something he forgets about shortly, and doesn't relate to any accomplishment. That is, he doesn't think that he got the trophy for being excellent, he knows it's just something they handed to everyone. He thinks it's cool in the same way that he thinks a souvenir mini-bat is cool. He doesn't place any great importance on it, so it's fine.
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
Say hi on the Twitter

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2007, 01:45:43 pm »
really? i have a room at my house full of those meaningless trophies leagues handed out to my kids. i doubt seriously either of them thinks even occasionally about them. they probably do remember good times and good teammates and good teams without the help of a trophy that everyone got.

At 6, right now, it does remind him.  He smiles everytime he looks at it.  When he's an adult the trophy likely won't mean much.
Goin' for a bus ride.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2007, 01:46:47 pm »

Geez, that's worse than yelling in front of everyone "Hudson...you're free to go!"

i gathered everyone around me and called the names of those who made the team. then i started the countdown for how long it would take for the first parent of a boy who was cut to get to the school. with cell phones, the time is not very long at all.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2007, 01:47:48 pm »
I think you're right that they have no real lasting value. I don't have any of that crap from when I was a kid, but I have tons of great memories from the leagues. That said, I don't have any of my toys, either, and I liked those quite a bit when I was a kid.

I have most of the trophies I got as a kid, and I still enjoy looking at them, though admittedly for the thoughts and conversations of good times and good friends they envoke.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2007, 01:49:10 pm »
i gathered everyone around me and called the names of those who made the team. then i started the countdown for how long it would take for the first parent of a boy who was cut to get to the school. with cell phones, the time is not very long at all.


Yep, that's how it was done with us.  They had those of us who made it go off and do something else so they could talk to the guys who just got cut as a group, but that was the end of it.  Everyone knew right then and there who made it and who didn't.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2007, 01:49:49 pm »
At 6, right now, it does remind him.  He smiles everytime he looks at it.  When he's an adult the trophy likely won't mean much.

sure, at 6, maybe. try when he is 10 or 12 or 14....
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

JackAstro

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3824
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2007, 01:50:57 pm »
I have most of the trophies I got as a kid, and I still enjoy looking at them, though admittedly for the thoughts and conversations of good times and good friends they envoke.

Were they actual trophies, or the "participation" kind?
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
Say hi on the Twitter

Taras Bulba

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3988
    • View Profile
    • Wing Attack Plan R
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2007, 01:51:31 pm »
really? i have a room at my house full of those meaningless trophies leagues handed out to my kids. i doubt seriously either of them thinks even occasionally about them. they probably do remember good times and good teammates and good teams without the help of a trophy that everyone got.

Same--they could care less.

I will say that there is little else in this world that meant more to me than when they sewed those two stars on my little league cap after making my first all star team.  
Purity of Essence

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2007, 01:53:12 pm »
Same--they could care less.

I will say that there is little else in this world that meant more to me than when they sewed those two stars on my little league cap after making my first all star team.  

i agree that trophies or other recognition for accomplishments mean something. not the participation trophies, though. we kept them and put them on the shelves, but that was the end of it.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2007, 01:54:01 pm »
sure, at 6, maybe. try when he is 10 or 12 or 14....

10, 12, 14 year olds think differently than 6 year olds.  I wasn't including above about 8 when referencing the younger ages.

Besides, like HH, my son's memories are of the fun, not the winning.

FWIW when I was about 8 and up trophies were only given out to the league winner and runner-up.  I'm guessing it's not the same today. (My oldest is 6.)
Goin' for a bus ride.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2007, 01:54:12 pm »
In my son's rec ball league, they give a game ball out to every player during the season.  The first one my son got because his name was up on the list.  He didn't play his best that day.  After everyone had gotten a ball, he had a great game and got the game ball.  Guess which one he is more proud of?  The one he earned.  I think the same applies to trophies. 
Always ready to go to a game.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2007, 01:58:55 pm »
Most of them were starters on HS varsity teams, I think.  A few were probably scrubs.  Most of them were average to pretty good HS players, but not elite.  One I know one has gone on to play in college.

And I'm not doubting there is a tremendous amount of talent out there in Houston right now, and I agree that the elite players nowadays are more polished than they were back in my day.  But the average amount of talent out there per capita has changed little, IMO.

I guess I'm suggesting 2 things, and I've got no proof, and I could be wrong, but I suspect that 20 years ago more talent in Houston would go to football than baseball, and I don't think that's true anymore.  There's so much athletic talent per capita, but in Houston at least more of it goes to baseball than it used to.  I'm also suggesting that most of the players are a wee bit more polished than their counterparts 20 years ago.  Not outlandishly, but a bit.  I'm not saying those 18 year olds were great players, just suggesting that their scrubs were probably better than your scrubs.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2007, 02:04:10 pm »
In my son's rec ball league, they give a game ball out to every player during the season.  The first one my son got because his name was up on the list.  He didn't play his best that day.  After everyone had gotten a ball, he had a great game and got the game ball.  Guess which one he is more proud of?  The one he earned.  I think the same applies to trophies. 

My son is 5 and I don't mind the participation trophy at the end of the season, but the stars for the hats, game ball, etc are too much. My son refused the stars for his hat because "the real baseball players don't have them," he was the only one though. I really don't get the game ball thing, I played from the time I was 8 years old until I was 20 and never witnessed a game ball presentation in baseball. I do not give game balls and don't plan to in the future. I just think there are better ways to motivate kids.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

gleach

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
    • Allison's Page
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2007, 02:07:05 pm »
When I played little league, everyone got a trophy.  And the stars on the hat were for team wins.  I don't know that 7 is too young as has been said here, because that is when I started.  Got two teeth knocked out at 7.  Played in the streets when I was younger than that.

We had something like a select team, but it was just for the summer season.  Also, in my LL, we had a majors and minors program.  The best kids played majors, and the rest played minors. This was in Cy Fair Little League.
I love Geoff Leach.  Every day. 

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2007, 02:11:38 pm »
When I played little league, everyone got a trophy.  And the stars on the hat were for team wins.  I don't know that 7 is too young as has been said here, because that is when I started.  Got two teeth knocked out at 7.  Played in the streets when I was younger than that.

We had something like a select team, but it was just for the summer season.  Also, in my LL, we had a majors and minors program.  The best kids played majors, and the rest played minors. This was in Cy Fair Little League.


We had a major and minors program, but not until you got to be 11 or 12.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

gleach

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 543
    • View Profile
    • Allison's Page
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2007, 02:21:07 pm »

We had a major and minors program, but not until you got to be 11 or 12.


Yeah, that's about when it started for us too.  They also drew the best kids from those majors teams and created a LLWS competition team.
I love Geoff Leach.  Every day. 

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2007, 02:22:52 pm »

Yeah, that's about when it started for us too.  They also drew the best kids from those majors teams and created a LLWS competition team.


Yeah, that was the all-star team.  When I first started, it was the league champion team that represented the league in the LLWS tournament.  They soon realized that wasn't such a good idea.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2007, 03:34:44 pm »
the real PONY league plays in the spring and summer. fall ball for 13-14 may be called PONY league, but it is not the regular league.

low key? how much do you pay? how many games? how much travelling?

when i coached (and played) in Austin, American Legion was summer ball for HS players. every team in the District had a Legion team so it was a mirror of the HS season. the fee was minimal. travel was no different than the spring season, unless the team reached the playoffs. they season was playing each team twice, as i recall, and there was plenty of time for other activities.

fall baseball is a fairly recent development. it results some folks' idea that one must specialize in one sport to be good and play year round.
My son is 17 and will be a Sr. this fall.  The way it's worked in recent years - at least in NW Houston/Spring/Klein - following the spring season, the area high schools hold the unofficial official summer league in which non-coaches essentially coordinate the "season."  No practices, just games.  In fact, starting this summer, we play Wednesdays only, doubleheaders.  Clearly that allows the players to go play Select tournaments all over creation throughout the week and weekends without conflict; otherwise, a bunch of kids just wouldn't make it to many games because they consider Select games a higher priority.  Their parents are certainly paying a lot more for Select than for summer ball with their own HS.

Since my son also plays HS basketball, and they have similar summer leagues (through the month of June), we (actually he) decided not to play any baseball other than his HS summer team.  It's a good thing.  He tends to get burned out when he plays year-round (we've been doing this on-and-off thing since he was 11), and if he's not having fun, what's the point?  Plus his decision not to play this summer has saved me a couple of thousand bucks.  Ironically, now that he's pared back his summer baseball to just the Wednesday doubleheaders, he's getting an appetite for more baseball again and actually making noise about playing fall ball.  As long as he really wants to do it, I'm all for it.

But the definition of Select has now been diluted to mean nothing more than pay-for-play.  True, there are elite teams that showcase top talent in their 18U and 17U tourneys, such as the Heat (Koby Clemens, for instance, played with them) and Kyle Chapman.  But there are so many levels of ability now that as long as mom and dad can write the check, there's a "Select" team out there somewhere for your special child.

Since my son has been in and out of the "Select loop" over the last seven years, I can vouch for the fact that politics ultimately can be overcome by a demonstrated ability on the field.  If an unknown kid can play, he'll be able to prove it in tryouts even if the odds are stacked against him going in because of the coach's unfamiliarity with his skills.  And, no, you don't have to play Select ball in order to play at our high school.  I know guys who didn't going in and ended up on varsity as juniors.  We won state 5A in '98 and have been to the final four several times in the past decade, all with the same coach, so it's not like the program is weak.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2007, 03:39:40 pm »


But the definition of Select has now been diluted to mean nothing more than pay-for-play.  True, there are elite teams that showcase top talent in their 18U and 17U tourneys, such as the Heat (Koby Clemens, for instance, played with them) and Kyle Chapman.  But there are so many levels of ability now that as long as mom and dad can write the check, there's a "Select" team out there somewhere for your special child.


you hit it right on the nose. it is a money-making business for the guys who organize the teams.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2007, 03:42:51 pm »
Since my son has been in and out of the "Select loop" over the last seven years, I can vouch for the fact that politics ultimately can be overcome by a demonstrated ability on the field.  If an unknown kid can play, he'll be able to prove it in tryouts even if the odds are stacked against him going in because of the coach's unfamiliarity with his skills.  And, no, you don't have to play Select ball in order to play at our high school.  I know guys who didn't going in and ended up on varsity as juniors. 

A friend of mine at work, her kid goes to Bellaire, and she is always talking about the politics involved.  Don't tell the team everyone is going to play and then play 22 out of 23 kids.  When the teammates notice and say something, there is obviously something wrong.
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2007, 03:44:35 pm »
A friend of mine at work, her kid goes to Bellaire, and she is always talking about the politics involved.  Don't tell the team everyone is going to play and then play 22 out of 23 kids.  When the teammates notice and say something, there is obviously something wrong.

let me guess. her kid did not play.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2007, 03:46:04 pm »
let me guess. her kid did not play.

No he didn't.  Kid didn't complain.  Knew upfront the coach wasn't gonna play him at all in a 6 day period.  But you can think it is only a parent complaining that her kid didn't play.
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2007, 03:47:04 pm »
let me guess. her kid did not play.

There are issues with the Bellaire program.  It's been on the news several times. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2007, 03:51:45 pm »
There are issues with the Bellaire program.  It's been on the news several times. 

oh, i know, but those are bigger than playing time issues.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BudGirl

  • Contributor
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 17776
  • Brad Ausmus' Slave
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2007, 03:55:32 pm »
oh, i know, but those are bigger than playing time issues.

what are they?  just wondering.
''I just did an interview with someone I like more than you. I used a lot of big words on him. I don't have anything left for you.'' --Brad Ausmus

Well behaved women rarely make history.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2007, 04:00:14 pm »
what are they?  just wondering.

I never understood exactly.  What I heard was at Kyle Chapman games, and they were sort of a strange mix of everything from pay for play to income tax evasion.  I didn't see the news reports, and then couldn't find anything on the internet.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #91 on: July 17, 2007, 04:08:44 pm »
let me guess. her kid did not play.
Can't speak for Bellaire (even though I graduated from there 100 years ago), but my son's team in the Klein district usually has between 15 and 18 players, I think.  Usually at least three of those guys are pitchers only; one might be a backup catcher who sees limited time; and maybe one or two others that are reserve pitchers or infielder/outfielders who serve as courtesy runners.  Typically, the larger rosters mean they're grooming more underclassmen or they don't have enough seniors who are good enough to play regularly and don't have a choice but bring up sophomores/juniors.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #92 on: July 17, 2007, 04:17:14 pm »
But the definition of Select has now been diluted to mean nothing more than pay-for-play.  True, there are elite teams that showcase top talent in their 18U and 17U tourneys, such as the Heat (Koby Clemens, for instance, played with them) and Kyle Chapman.  But there are so many levels of ability now that as long as mom and dad can write the check, there's a "Select" team out there somewhere for your special child.

Since my son has been in and out of the "Select loop" over the last seven years, I can vouch for the fact that politics ultimately can be overcome by a demonstrated ability on the field.  If an unknown kid can play, he'll be able to prove it in tryouts even if the odds are stacked against him going in because of the coach's unfamiliarity with his skills.  And, no, you don't have to play Select ball in order to play at our high school.  I know guys who didn't going in and ended up on varsity as juniors.  We won state 5A in '98 and have been to the final four several times in the past decade, all with the same coach, so it's not like the program is weak.

I think I noted long ago that the whole notion of "select" was now nonsensical, and mostly I hear it referred to as just plain summer ball or tournament ball.  It's the team you play with in the summer.  Andy's team was put together by a "coach" of the sophomore high school team, who was a volunteer.  Maybe he did it to get rich, but I doubt he's getting very rich.  He played AAA.  He's getting his teaching certificate at UofH.  

As I said, we've never been in that loop at all until this summer.  Is it required?  No.  Is it pretty good baseball?  From what I've seen, it can be.  Is it the death of baseball as we know it?  It's certainly how a lot of baseball is now played in Houston, and I don't think it's hurt the quality of baseball.  Or raised anybody's expectations above where they already were.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #93 on: July 17, 2007, 04:22:32 pm »
Can't speak for Bellaire (even though I graduated from there 100 years ago), but my son's team in the Klein district usually has between 15 and 18 players, I think.  Usually at least three of those guys are pitchers only; one might be a backup catcher who sees limited time; and maybe one or two others that are reserve pitchers or infielder/outfielders who serve as courtesy runners.  Typically, the larger rosters mean they're grooming more underclassmen or they don't have enough seniors who are good enough to play regularly and don't have a choice but bring up sophomores/juniors.

There is also a jv team and 1 or more sophomore teams?
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #94 on: July 17, 2007, 04:31:32 pm »
There is also a jv team and 1 or more sophomore teams?

I go over and watch the sophomore games at Bellaire and I asked why the multiple teams and someone said it was because they don't want the kids to lose interest.  They may experience a growth spurt or really develop an understanding of the game and they don't want them to give it up if they don't make it. 
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #95 on: July 17, 2007, 04:35:05 pm »
I think I noted long ago that the whole notion of "select" was now nonsensical, and mostly I hear it referred to as just plain summer ball or tournament ball.  It's the team you play with in the summer.  Andy's team was put together by a "coach" of the sophomore high school team, who was a volunteer.  Maybe he did it to get rich, but I doubt he's getting very rich.  He played AAA.  He's getting his teaching certificate at UofH.  

As I said, we've never been in that loop at all until this summer.  Is it required?  No.  Is it pretty good baseball?  From what I've seen, it can be.  Is it the death of baseball as we know it?  It's certainly how a lot of baseball is now played in Houston, and I don't think it's hurt the quality of baseball.  Or raised anybody's expectations above where they already were.
It is the way things are in the Houston area (and probably throughout many parts of the country), for better or worse.  You will be hard-pressed to find enough non-select players above the age of 12 left over to field a league, much less a competitive one.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

Kent's Moustache

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2007, 04:36:05 pm »
Funny "cut" story...

When I was a senior in HS, we returned nearly our entire starting lineup from our junior season, which was a very competitive team in a very competitive 5A district in north Louisiana.  Literally, our lineup was set before we had the first practice in February, with 9 seniors and a junior manning the various positions and the DH slot.  The only variation involved who was pitching in that particular game.

We also had a bench returning from the remaining seniors, juniors, and a couple of good sophomores who had shone on the JV team in the previous season.  The roster was totally and legitimately complete.  We weren't interested in offering opportunities to newcomers.  We were interested in winning the state title, (which means, of course, that we would have taken on any newcomers talented enough to get us closer to that goal, if there were any).

Nevertheless, enough parents raised a stink that our principal forced our head coach to hold a varsity "tryout" on a Saturday afternoon in late February.  Our coach was not a jackass.  In fact, he was a good baseball coach and a good man, but he had little patience for such nonsense.

Our coach ran the newbies through a variety of drills to test their defensive abilities and allowed them each a brief BP session.  He concluded the tryout by chalking a short line perpendicular to the LF line about 200 feet from home plate.  He then instructed each of the participants to crow-hop to the chalk line and make their best throw to our catcher who was stationed at the backstop.

Several kids made halfway decent throws which one-hopped or two-hopped to the plate.  None hit the catcher on the fly.  Our coach then instructed each of us--the five returning varsity OFs--to make our best throws.  Most of us hit the backstop hear the top of the fence, while our two big hoses cleared the backstop altogether.

Coach then thanked everyone for attending and announced that everyone who didn't at least hit the catcher on the fly was cordially invited to tryout the following season.  Not surprisingly, our coach had another meeting with the principal the next week, but he struck to his guns and our roster remained unaltered.

He made the right call.  We won more than 30 games that season, captured the district title, and lost a heart-breaker in extra innings in the 5A quarterfinals.

P.S.  I never played a day of "Select" league baseball in my life, nor did my younger brother, who far surpassed anything that I or most people have ever accomplished on the diamond.
"Go play intramurals, brother.  Go play intramurals..."

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2007, 04:45:12 pm »
I go over and watch the sophomore games at Bellaire and I asked why the multiple teams and someone said it was because they don't want the kids to lose interest.  They may experience a growth spurt or really develop an understanding of the game and they don't want them to give it up if they don't make it. 

15 year olds are strange physically.  Andy grew 6 inches in a 12 month period, which made him a lot more interesting as a pitcher, but he also lost some coordination in the process.  I really do suspect that the bellaire and lamar multiple teams are there for lots of reasons, but the physical strangeness of kids at that age is part of it.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2007, 04:45:47 pm »
what are they?  just wondering.

I don't know anything recent, but I do know from first hand experience that Rocky Manuel recruits players from in and around the Houston area to come play for him.  They try to find ways around the districting issues.  A kid that lives in Bellaire isn't necessarily the kid that plays *for* Bellaire.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 04:58:11 pm by Noe in Austin »

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2007, 04:49:43 pm »
There is also a jv team and 1 or more sophomore teams?
I was speaking strictly about varsity rosters.  The entire high school program holds 45-50 players maximum on a yearly basis, spread out between sophomore, jv, and varsity teams.  The sophomore team in recent years has been comprised almost exclusively of freshmen with maybe one or two sophomores in a given year.  JV is mostly sophomores who moved up from the previous freshman class (some quit and decide to focus on football instead) and a few juniors who aren't deemed ready for prime time for one reason or another, but have potential to play varsity as seniors.  Typically the one or two other sophomores from the previous year's sophomore team will either quit on their own, get cut outright, or get told they can stay on the jv team but won't see much playing time, at which time they almost always quit.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 04:51:50 pm by cc »
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2007, 04:52:54 pm »
I was speaking strictly about varsity rosters.  The entire high school program holds 45-50 players maximum on a yearly basis, spread out between sophomore, jv, and varsity teams.  The sophomore team in recent years has been comprised almost exclusively of freshmen with maybe one or two sophomores in a given year.  JV is mostly sophomores who moved up from the previous freshman class (some quit and decide to focus on football instead) and a few juniors who aren't deemed ready for prime time for one reason or another, but have potential to play varsity as seniors.  Typically the one or two other sophomores from the previous year's sophomore team will either quit on their own, get cut outright, or get told they can stay on the jv team but won't see much playing time, at which time they almost always quit.

How big is the high school?  As I recall, Bellaire has about 4000 students, Lamar about a 1000 fewer.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2007, 04:54:44 pm »
I don't anything recent, but I do know from first hand experience that Rocky Manuel recruits players from in and around the Houston area to come play for him.  They try to find ways around the districting issues.  A kid that lives in Bellaire isn't necessarily the kid that plays *for* Bellaire.

You're wrong, Noe.  Those kids are going to Bellaire because of the language program in Russian.  Baseball is just a nice addition.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #102 on: July 17, 2007, 04:56:58 pm »
I was speaking strictly about varsity rosters.  The entire high school program holds 45-50 players maximum on a yearly basis, spread out between sophomore, jv, and varsity teams.  The sophomore team in recent years has been comprised exclusively of freshmen with maybe one or two sophomores in a given year.  JV is mostly sophomores who moved up from the previous freshman class (some quit and decide to focus on football instead) and a few juniors who aren't deemed ready for prime time for one reason or another, but have potential to play varsity as seniors.  Typically the one or two other sophomores from the previous year's sophomore team will either quit on their own, get cut outright, or get told they can stay on the jv team but won't see much playing time, at which time they almost always quit.

In Florida, where I started HS, we had only one team.  The "baseball team".  It was only varsity.  Most other boys sports (football, basketball, track, wrestling, etc) had JV, but baseball, for whatever reason did not.  And it wasn't due to a lack of interest or talent.  I knew one guy who couldn't make the HS team, but played Div1 college ball.  Kind of a freak occurence as he was a middle infielder who was blocked by a couple of guys, both HS All-Americans, one a 1st round MLB draft choice.  Of course, HS was only 10-12 grades.  Freshmen were still technically in Jr High, and couldn't play HS sports (though academically they were considered HS).  And if I'm not mistaken, only sophomores could play JV.  Juniors and Seniors could not.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2007, 04:57:17 pm »
How big is the high school?  As I recall, Bellaire has about 4000 students, Lamar about a 1000 fewer.
I don't know, to be honest.  Maybe someone can look it up.  I didn't mean to be furtive; it's Klein HS.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2007, 04:59:46 pm »
You're wrong, Noe.  Those kids are going to Bellaire because of the language program in Russian.  Baseball is just a nice addition.

The kids I know that got approached by Manuel (and his cronies) had no desire to learn Russian.  Too bad.  And their parents weren't about to help Rocky cheat the system either.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2007, 05:03:59 pm »
I don't know, to be honest.  Maybe someone can look it up.  I didn't mean to be furtive; it's Klein HS.

I don't have any kids, but if I did, they would go to Klein.  I think the school has a total enrollment of about 3500, or about $1 of my taxes per student.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2007, 05:04:36 pm »
I don't know, to be honest.  Maybe someone can look it up.  I didn't mean to be furtive; it's Klein HS.

I didn't think you were, I just didn't want to go back through the emails to figure it out.

Wikipedia says Bellaire has 3300 or thereabouts.  That sounds about right.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2007, 05:04:44 pm »
In Florida, where I started HS, we had only one team.  The "baseball team".  It was only varsity.  Most other boys sports (football, basketball, track, wrestling, etc) had JV, but baseball, for whatever reason did not.  And it wasn't due to a lack of interest or talent.  I knew one guy who couldn't make the HS team, but played Div1 college ball.  Kind of a freak occurence as he was a middle infielder who was blocked by a couple of guys, both HS All-Americans, one a 1st round MLB draft choice.  Of course, HS was only 10-12 grades.  Freshmen were still technically in Jr High, and couldn't play HS sports (though academically they were considered HS).  And if I'm not mistaken, only sophomores could play JV.  Juniors and Seniors could not.
I think that's the way they do boys soccer at Klein.  You're either good enough for varsity, or you're not playing this year.  They may have a jv but that's the lowest level.  And again, it's not for lack of interest.  Those guys either win state or compete for state practically every year.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2007, 05:07:23 pm »
I don't have any kids, but if I did, they would go to Klein.  I think the school has a total enrollment of about 3500, or about $1 of my taxes per student.
My sons and I thank you.  Of course, we thank me too.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2007, 05:09:38 pm »
The kids I know that got approached by Manuel (and his cronies) had no desire to learn Russian.  Too bad.  And their parents weren't about to help Rocky cheat the system either.

In HISD, you can choose your high school if your home school doesn't offer the program you're interested in.  Bellaire is a magnet for languages, and offers some strange languages that other schools don't.  I think it was apocryphal, but there used to be a running joke back in Bellaire's heyday that there were a tremendous number of high school baseball players studying Russian at Bellaire.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2007, 05:10:44 pm »
My sons and I thank you.  Of course, we thank me too.


Unlike some DINKS, my wife and I don't mind paying our share of school taxes.  One, it makes the school distric better which attracts a certain type of parenting style to the neighborhood, and two, it makes for better prepared citizens of the world at large in the future.  At least we tell ourselves that.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2007, 05:15:46 pm »
In HISD, you can choose your high school if your home school doesn't offer the program you're interested in.  Bellaire is a magnet for languages, and offers some strange languages that other schools don't.  I think it was apocryphal, but there used to be a running joke back in Bellaire's heyday that there were a tremendous number of high school baseball players studying Russian at Bellaire.

Lamar is a magnet school too.  But Manuel is the only one I've heard of that will recruit a player to come to Bellaire.  Maybe the others do as well, like at Lamar, but Manuel is the one who I personally knew approached a couple of kids I know.

cc

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 949
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2007, 05:20:37 pm »
In HISD, you can choose your high school if your home school doesn't offer the program you're interested in.  Bellaire is a magnet for languages, and offers some strange languages that other schools don't.  I think it was apocryphal, but there used to be a running joke back in Bellaire's heyday that there were a tremendous number of high school baseball players studying Russian at Bellaire.
It may very well be, but the Russian program pre-dates Manuel.  Back in '77-'80, when ole Ray Knoblauch was still skippering the Cardinals (not that I played or even wore the uniform), we had Russian as a foreign language elective, IIRC.  It's been a magnet school for foreign languages for a looooong time.  Of course, that doesn't mean the magnet program isn't being exploited these days.
"I'm against the knee-jerk dismissal of knee-jerk reactions."

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2007, 06:44:45 pm »
Is there still a Karl Young League in Houston after the High School Season?  I liked playing in that league...

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2007, 06:52:33 pm »
Is there still a Karl Young League in Houston after the High School Season?  I liked playing in that league...


Yes, although it has officially become the Roger Clemens Gratuitous Dicksuck League.  I don't know how good the league is anymore, but a lot of the elite players are playing in the local Gulf Coast League, which is a Stan Musial League affiliate.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JGrave

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2021
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2007, 09:29:46 pm »
Lamar is a magnet school too.  But Manuel is the only one I've heard of that will recruit a player to come to Bellaire.  Maybe the others do as well, like at Lamar, but Manuel is the one who I personally knew approached a couple of kids I know.

Lamar and Westside do it too.  The inner city schools have struggled to compete, especially lately.  They do go and pillage some of the other smaller area schools for their talent to try and keep up with the Katys and Langham Creeks and Kleins.  Doesn't make it right but that is their logic. 

This isn't why Manuel has come under fire though, at this particular time.  Let's just say they have some fundraising issues.   
DS Andy Wainwright: You do know there are more guns in the country than there are in the city.
DS Andy Cartwright: Everyone and their mums is packin' round here!
Nicholas Angel: Like who?
DS Andy Wainwright: Farmers.
Nicholas Angel: Who else?
DS Andy Cartwright: Farmers' mums.

The Spleen

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1175
    • View Profile
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2007, 10:13:22 pm »
I was pretty much the high school version of Jason Lane... so I don't really know my Select Superstar Roy Hobbs League from my Honus Wagner Vernal Equinox Invitational...
When the Clark is dead, Spack will eat his spleen. Before he dies, Spack will put his posts under the knife so the Clark will see his threads wiped out forever...

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2007, 11:20:37 pm »
Is there still a Karl Young League in Houston after the High School Season?  I liked playing in that league...

That was a great league.  Many a guy who I played with spent some time in that league.  Nice field too over by Northwest Mall!

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2007, 11:23:13 pm »
Lamar and Westside do it too.  The inner city schools have struggled to compete, especially lately.  They do go and pillage some of the other smaller area schools for their talent to try and keep up with the Katys and Langham Creeks and Kleins.  Doesn't make it right but that is their logic. 

This isn't why Manuel has come under fire though, at this particular time.  Let's just say they have some fundraising issues.   

Let's just say I am not shocked to hear Rocky Manuel is being investigated for some shaddy dealings and leave it at that.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: Pure Baseball (Non-Astros)
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2007, 11:25:06 pm »
I was pretty much the high school version of Jason Lane... so I don't really know my Select Superstar Roy Hobbs League from my Honus Wagner Vernal Equinox Invitational...

They have a Roy Hobbs World Series Tournament in Florida every year (or used to any way).  It is one of the better amatuer baseball tournaments around.