Author Topic: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...  (Read 21528 times)

ASTROCREEP

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Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« on: July 02, 2007, 10:08:13 pm »
or a hole bunch of stick-um.

How many times has that happened now?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2007, 10:11:09 pm »
at least he got the last out
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pravata

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 10:16:57 pm »
or a hole bunch of stick-um.

How many times has that happened now?

His head bounces when he runs.  Purpura has mentioned that he always plays flat out, but he has to learn to run, at near full speed, under control. Also, he will run to the spot, but at the end sometimes he stabs at the ball.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2007, 10:22:15 pm »
His head bounces when he runs.  Purpura has mentioned that he always plays flat out, but he has to learn to run, at near full speed, under control. Also, he will run to the spot, but at the end sometimes he stabs at the ball.

Like a bobblehead on wheels going over rumble strips.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2007, 10:57:56 pm »
the pence defense bashing is getting way old. we all know he sucks at it but jesus christ hes hitting. we have no CF and hes forced to play there.

pravata

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2007, 11:04:17 pm »
the pence defense bashing is getting way old. we all know he sucks at it but jesus christ hes hitting. we have no CF and hes forced to play there.

How is a simple straight forward observation "bashing"?  It's a fact, his head bounces when he runs.  And, keeping your head still so you can keep your eyes on the ball is one of the fundamentals of catching a fly ball.

Matt

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2007, 11:26:10 pm »
Nobody is bashing or claiming that he's always going to suck.  They're just pointing out some things he needs to work on.  Hell I'd rather he be there then in right field with his wet noodle arm.

pravata

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2007, 11:27:30 pm »
Nobody is bashing or claiming that he's always going to suck.  They're just pointing out some things he needs to work on.  Hell I'd rather he be there then in right field with his wet noodle arm.

Head still going to bounce when he's running in right too. 

Matt

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2007, 11:29:55 pm »
Head still going to bounce when he's running in right too. 
Oh yeah I'm not questioning that, I'm just saying his arm in right field would be more of a nightmare then in center.

ASTROCREEP

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 09:38:34 am »
the pence defense bashing is getting way old. we all know he sucks at it but jesus christ hes hitting. we have no CF and hes forced to play there.


My question about his glove was somewhat serious. Being an ex-high school and current bear league, ham-string pulling outfielder,
I know how you can get attached to a glove even though the glove is way past its best years. His glove just looks really FLOPPY,
maybe, just maybe a new glove could help.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 09:48:57 am »

...and current bear league, ham-string pulling outfielder...


I've heard of this.  A group of back-hair sporting, butch Abba fans playing softball, rescheduling their shoe shopping and mani/pedi appointments for non-league nights.

The group hugs and snug polyester uniforms are what keep the Westside Estefans at the top of the first division.  Although the Central Minellis are nipping at their heels.

EasTexAstro

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 09:50:52 am »
I've heard of this.  A group of back-hair sporting, butch Abba fans playing softball, rescheduling their shoe shopping and mani/pedi appointments for non-league nights.

The group hugs and snug polyester uniforms are what keep the Westside Estefans at the top of the first division.  Although the Central Minellis are nipping at their heels.

I thought he meant he played for Chicago...

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2007, 09:52:43 am »
the pence defense bashing is getting way old. we all know he sucks at it but jesus christ hes hitting. we have no CF and hes forced to play there.

WFW. hitting has nothing to do with defense. that was a huge misplay last night.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2007, 09:56:20 am »
WFW. hitting has nothing to do wirth defense. that was a huge misplay last night.

But he's hitting...Can't we just ignore that whole fielding a position thing?  He's hitting. 

You guys are mean to rookies.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2007, 11:29:24 am »
WFW. hitting has nothing to do wirth defense. that was a huge misplay last night.

Saying "WFW" is redundant.  You should just type "<-------" to make people look at your avatar.

davek

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2007, 11:40:09 am »
Saying "WFW" is redundant.  You should just type "<-------" to make people look at your avatar.

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strosrays

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2007, 01:31:14 pm »
the pence defense bashing is getting way old. we all know he sucks at it but jesus christ hes hitting. we have no CF and hes forced to play there.

How is a simple straight forward observation "bashing"?  It's a fact, his head bounces when he runs.  And, keeping your head still so you can keep your eyes on the ball is one of the fundamentals of catching a fly ball.


I like Pence!! and all.  I've been mostly positive about him in the Previews and such.  But I am made a little uneasy by his most ardent supporters' tendency to fall into messianic comparisons when discussing him.

Foghorn

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2007, 02:12:03 pm »

I like Pence!! and all.  I've been mostly positive about him in the Previews and such.  But I am made a little uneasy by his most ardent supporters' tendency to fall into messianic comparisons when discussing him.


You will not question PENCE!!!! nor those who deify Him.  Those who do question PENCE!!! will have their names recorded on the Scroll of the Damned, forever sentanced to watch nothing but Reds/Pirates games for all eternity.
You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy, I don't give a shit. Good father, fuck you. Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here, close. You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit?

JimR

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2007, 02:18:38 pm »

You will not question PENCE!!!! nor those who deify Him.  Those who do question PENCE!!! will have their names recorded on the Scroll of the Damned, forever sentanced to watch nothing but Reds/Pirates games for all eternity.

do they catch fly balls in those games?
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das

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2007, 02:31:08 pm »
do they catch fly balls in those games?

*Golf Clap*
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

rambo2

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2007, 02:40:38 pm »
He does have a weak throwing arm.  He also has the best fielding percentage among the starting outfielders and he catches balls that the other guys wouldn't touch.

Duman

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2007, 02:43:57 pm »
He also has the best fielding percentage among the starting outfielders

Isn't that like saying Mo was the brightest of the 3 stooges?
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Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2007, 02:49:14 pm »
Isn't that like saying Mo was the brightest of the 3 stooges?

*sigh*, thank you Duman!

Limey

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2007, 02:52:10 pm »
Isn't that like saying Mo was the brightest of the 3 stooges?

...or that rambo2 is in the top 3 percent of clarks.
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JimR

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2007, 02:56:51 pm »
He does have a weak throwing arm.  He also has the best fielding percentage among the starting outfielders and he catches balls that the other guys wouldn't touch.

he also drops balls that the other guys would catch.

he ain't a good OFer, but he can hit.
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astrox

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2007, 02:58:06 pm »
...or that rambo2 is in the top 3 percent of clarks.

...or that Rambo 2 is in the top 3% of shitty movies.
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legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2007, 02:59:04 pm »
WFW. hitting has nothing to do with defense. that was a huge misplay last night.
i realize this and it was a huge misplay but it just seems the constant nagging on his D is going nowhere, should we call Jason Lane in Round Rock to come up and catch the ball and hit with his .158ba?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2007, 03:00:47 pm »
i realize this and it was a huge misplay but it just seems the constant nagging on his D is going nowhere, should we call Jason Lane in Round Rock to come up and catch the ball and hit with his .158ba?

there you go again--hitting and catching are separate. you do not catch a ball with your BA. maybe Hunter does not know that either.

in the late innings in a close game, Lane would be better in CF.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2007, 03:04:41 pm »
i realize this and it was a huge misplay but it just seems the constant nagging on his D is going nowhere, should we call Jason Lane in Round Rock to come up and catch the ball and hit with his .158ba?

This is a separate topic.  Those who are aware of PENCE!!'s defensive limitations will not be surprised if the Astros make a trade, perhaps including him, for a central gardener who can lead off.  Not saying we'd agree...
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legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2007, 03:07:40 pm »
there you go again--hitting and catching are separate. you do not catch a ball with your BA. maybe Hunter does not know that either.

in the late innings in a close game, Lane would be better in CF.


I can agree with that as well as putting Bruntlett in at short if Loretta is there. But I wouldn't make that move til the 8th or 9th at the latest.

Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2007, 03:09:09 pm »
there you go again--hitting and catching are separate. you do not catch a ball with your BA. maybe Hunter does not know that either.

in the late innings in a close game, Lane would be better in CF.

If people are going to bitch about the Houston bullpen, then they have nothing to say good about the support on defense this staff is getting.  NOTHING!  Lack of defense is how 4 run leads disappear.  But to sit back and bitch exclusively about the relievers and give carte blanche to the defense is unquestionably shortsighted (not exlusively about Pence either, but he's not an answer either defensively in center).  I'm sure the "he can hit" (Lee, Loretta, Lamb or Pence, doesn't matter) makes the relievers very happy when they see the lack of support defensively.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2007, 03:12:48 pm »
This is a separate topic.  Those who are aware of PENCE!!'s defensive limitations will not be surprised if the Astros make a trade, perhaps including him, for a central gardener who can lead off.  Not saying we'd agree...


you think they'd do that? the way pence is creating a following and fanbuzz (dare i say of the biggio/bags/berkman variety) i couldn't see drayton being completely on board with this unless we were getting something real good. what's equal value for pence anyways hes headed for ROTY NL honors, has 5 1/2+ years of club control left, can hit like the dickens, i'd be asking for an arm and a leg from anyone who inquired. besides this is all crazy talk---were acting like Purp actually looks outside the organization for help.

astrox

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2007, 03:14:22 pm »
there you go again--hitting and catching are separate. you do not catch a ball with your BA. maybe Hunter does not know that either.

in the late innings in a close game, Lane would be better in CF.

More specifically if the Astros were winning said close/late game, right?
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Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2007, 03:14:43 pm »


you think they'd do that? the way pence is creating a following and fanbuzz (dare i say of the biggio/bags/berkman variety) i couldn't see drayton being completely on board with this unless we were getting something real good. what's equal value for pence anyways hes headed for ROTY NL honors, has 5 1/2+ years of club control left, can hit like the dickens, i'd be asking for an arm and a leg from anyone who inquired. besides this is all crazy talk---were acting like Purp actually looks outside the organization for help.

Limey isn't talking about trading Pence.  Read again.

BUWebguy

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2007, 03:25:46 pm »
I don't speak British, but I read Limey's post the same way Legs did.

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Those who are aware of PENCE!!'s defensive limitations will not be surprised if the Astros make a trade, perhaps including him, for a central gardener who can lead off.

Who does "him" refer to, if not Pence?

p.s. I realize Limey wasn't advocating trading Pence, but he did seem to be talking about trading him.
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legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2007, 03:29:44 pm »
I don't speak British, but I read Limey's post the same way Legs did.

Who does "him" refer to, if not Pence?

p.s. I realize Limey wasn't advocating trading Pence, but he did seem to be talking about trading him.

 i went back and re-read limey's post about 10 times and couldn't see what else he'd be implying, figured the hang over from this morning scrambled me thoughts for the day i guess

Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2007, 03:44:34 pm »
"Those who are aware of PENCE!!'s defensive limitations will not be surprised if the Astros make a trade, perhaps including him, for a central gardener who can lead off."

Who would not be surprised?  Those aware of Pence's defensive limitations, including Pence himself would not be surprised?  You don't trade a hitter like Pence, you find a place for his stick somewhere.  We've said this over and over already.  But to say he's a CF right now or that he's got tools that scream it is just a matter of time for him to establish himself (see: Taveras, Willy) is silly.

For now, Pence is all they have for CF, so no one is kidding themselves.  But no one is going to say he's the CF of the future either.  There is some doubt about that for sure.  But to doubt that he's going to be an Astro for a good long time is *NOT* what anyone shoud say either.  Josh Flores in AA will be a guy to push Pence out of CF if he continues to play well.  So folks should try to be less shortsighted about what might eventually happen with Pence in the Houston Astros organization.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2007, 03:48:40 pm »
i realize this and it was a huge misplay but it just seems the constant nagging on his D is going nowhere, should we call Jason Lane in Round Rock to come up and catch the ball and hit with his .158ba?

Has anyone suggested replacing Hunter Pence? People point out that Berkman's a lousy baserunner, too, but that doesn't mean it's being suggested that he be benched.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2007, 03:52:02 pm »
If people are going to bitch about the Houston bullpen, then they have nothing to say good about the support on defense this staff is getting.  NOTHING!  Lack of defense is how 4 run leads disappear.  But to sit back and bitch exclusively about the relievers and give carte blanche to the defense is unquestionably shortsighted (not exlusively about Pence either, but he's not an answer either defensively in center).  I'm sure the "he can hit" (Lee, Loretta, Lamb or Pence, doesn't matter) makes the relievers very happy when they see the lack of support defensively.

It would take some persuading to convince me that the difference between a bullpen with a 3.94 ERA last season and a bullpen with a 5.30 ERA this season is primarily or even sizeably due to the fielders. The fielders can only do so much about breaking balls hanging up in the strike zone.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2007, 03:53:16 pm »
"Those who are aware of PENCE!!'s defensive limitations will not be surprised if the Astros make a trade, perhaps including him, for a central gardener who can lead off."

Who would not be surprised?  Those aware of Pence's defensive limitations, including Pence himself would not be surprised?  You don't trade a hitter like Pence, you find a place for his stick somewhere.  We've said this over and over already.  But to say he's a CF right now or that he's got tools that scream it is just a matter of time for him to establish himself (see: Taveras, Willy) is silly.

For now, Pence is all they have for CF, so no one is kidding themselves.  But no one is going to say he's the CF of the future either.  There is some doubt about that for sure.  But to doubt that he's going to be an Astro for a good long time is *NOT* what anyone shoud say either.  Josh Flores in AA will be a guy to push Pence out of CF if he continues to play well.  So folks should try to be less shortsighted about what might eventually happen with Pence in the Houston Astros organization.


I would definitely be surprised if he was moved to another team. Yes I agree, he's certainly not 'the plan' for centerfield and there's probly not even a definitive plan for him anywhere in the field at this point. They're winging it right now and it really feels like the Jakes' situation with Pooholes when he was stuck at just about every spot on the field before settling in at first. His speed is what makes him the default CFer for now. His special stick is what will keep him in the lineup everyday and in an astro uniform for a long while.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2007, 03:54:35 pm »
Has anyone suggested replacing Hunter Pence? People point out that Berkman's a lousy baserunner, too, but that doesn't mean it's being suggested that he be benched.


any given gamenight where Pence isN'T in the lineup would be considered giving up if you ask me.

Astroholic

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2007, 03:54:53 pm »


I would definitely be surprised if he was moved to another team. Yes I agree, he's certainly not 'the plan' for centerfield and there's probly not even a definitive plan for him anywhere in the field at this point. They're winging it right now and it really feels like the Jakes' situation with Pooholes when he was stuck at just about every spot on the field before settling in at first. His speed is what makes him the default CFer for now. His special stick is what will keep him in the lineup everyday and in an astro uniform for a long while.

I got it.
Pence to Left
Los to 1st
Berkman to Right..no was that so hard?

Oh and new center fielder to center...except I still like Luke.... Damn

Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2007, 03:55:48 pm »
It would take some persuading to convince me that the difference between a bullpen with a 3.94 ERA last season and a bullpen with a 5.30 ERA this season is primarily or even sizeably due to the fielders. The fielders can only do so much about breaking balls hanging up in the strike zone.

It was an oversimplification on my part to make a point.  I was not intending to explain a bullpen that is blowing up.  Variable factors are at work here, not one single solitary reason.  My bad if I made it sound that I advocated one reason alone.

It was not my point.

Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2007, 03:58:50 pm »


I would definitely be surprised if he was moved to another team.

Good Lord!  Are you purposely trying to pick a fight or sumpthin?  Nobody is saying he is going to be traded or should be.  All that Limey said (to me) is that Pence shouldn't be surprised if the Astros traded for a CFer.  Pence can play a *different* position at that point.  It should not surprised him if that were a move that was made.  We talked about a trade for Maybin from Detroit for Qualls/Scott (for instance).  Pence would move to right in such a case or first base with Berkman going to right.  Maybin is a CFer.

Get it now?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 04:03:42 pm by Noe in Austin »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2007, 03:59:39 pm »
It was an oversimplification on my part to make a point.  I was not intending to explain a bullpen that is blowing up.  Variable factors are at work here, not one single solitary reason.  My bad if I made it sound that I advocated one reason alone.

It was not my point.

I certainly do agree that the bullpen would look better if, for example, Pence hadn't turned a long out into a two-run double last night.

Noe

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2007, 04:00:29 pm »
I got it.
Pence to Left
Los to 1st
Berkman to Right..no was that so hard?

Oh and new center fielder to center...except I still like Luke.... Damn

Thanks!  Eggszactly.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2007, 04:01:01 pm »
Good Lord!  Are trying to pick a fight or sumpthin?  Nobody is saying he is going to be traded or should be.  All that Limey said (to me) is that Pence shouldn't be surprised if the Astros traded for a CFer.  Pence can play a *different* position at that point.  It should not surprised him if that were a move that was made.  We talked about a trade for Maybin from Detroit for Qualls/Scott (for instance).  Pence would move to right in such a case or first base with Berkman going to right.  Maybin is a CFer.

Get it now?


completely, in fact i would be inclined to agree. luke scott appears to be the odd man out here.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2007, 04:03:26 pm »
I got it.
Pence to Left
Los to 1st
Berkman to Right..no was that so hard?

Oh and new center fielder to center...except I still like Luke.... Damn


Nobody wants to see 250 pounds of Carlos Lee at first failing to pick a short throw followed by goofy lummoxing around the dugout trying to find the baseball

Astroholic

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2007, 04:06:06 pm »


Nobody wants to see 250 pounds of Carlos Lee at first failing to pick a short throw followed by goofy lummoxing around the dugout trying to find the baseball

You mean like Big Cat or Fielder (father/son) for example?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2007, 04:07:22 pm »


Nobody wants to see 250 pounds of Carlos Lee at first failing to pick a short throw followed by goofy lummoxing around the dugout trying to find the baseball

Of course not. We'd much rather see that in left.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2007, 04:08:32 pm »


Nobody wants to see 250 pounds of Carlos Lee at first failing to pick a short throw followed by goofy lummoxing around the dugout trying to find the baseball

You'd rather see Lee failing to catch a sinking liner to left and then goofy lummoxing around the Crawford Box wall trying to find the baseball?

Honestly. Stop being obtuse.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2007, 04:08:46 pm »
I certainly do agree that the bullpen would look better if, for example, Pence hadn't turned a long out into a two-run double last night.

Yes, this is the point.  Now as to the actual dominance of the pen, it depends on the type of pitch that is made.  Wheeler doesn't pitch well at the middle to upper half of the zone and that causes balls to be hit like that deep drive.  The defense can help him against himself in such a case (see the play mentioned).  But if Wheeler, for instance, is pitching at the bottom of the zone and generating a ton of plays for the outfielders and infielders to make and they lack the skills to do so, then the problem *IS* primarily the defense.

I see the problem as both being the case this season.  But the pen can turn it around, they have the talent to do so.  I don't know exactly why Wheels is dealing like he is right now, but he's better than that.  So is Qualls, Miller and Lidge.  The defense, right now, is not what I would call better than what it's showing.  It's about right for the talent out there, so the pitchers have to help themselves.  I said this when Everett went down... the pitchers better hunker down and deal, because they don't have the insurance back there any more to bail them out.

IMHO of course.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2007, 04:10:21 pm »
Yes, this is the point.  Now as to the actual dominance of the pen, it depends on the type of pitch that is made.  Wheeler doesn't pitch well at the middle to upper half of the zone and that causes balls to be hit like that deep drive.  The defense can help him against himself in such a case (see the play mentioned).  But if Wheeler, for instance, is pitching at the bottom of the zone and generating a ton of plays for the outfielders and infielders to make and they lack the skills to do so, then the problem *IS* primarily the defense.

I see the problem as both being the case this season.  But the pen can turn it around, they have the talent to do so.  I don't know exactly why Wheels is dealing like he is right now, but he's better than that.  So is Qualls, Miller and Lidge.  The defense, right now, is not what I would call better than what it's showing.  It's about right for the talent out there, so the pitchers have to help themselves.  I said this when Everett went down... the pitchers better hunker down and deal, because they don't have the insurance back there any more to bail them out.

IMHO of course.

They're walking more and allowing more home runs, too, but they are also striking out more.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2007, 04:12:01 pm »
They're walking more and allowing more home runs, too, but they are also striking out more.

The homeruns and striking out speaks to challenging more hitters (to me).  Walks?  That is strange given the need to challenge hitters more.  Maybe some guys are nibbling too much and trying to be too fine and end up challenging hitters because of it.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2007, 04:16:02 pm »
The homeruns and striking out speaks to challenging more hitters (to me).  Walks?  That is strange given the need to challenge hitters more.  Maybe some guys are nibbling too much and trying to be too fine and end up challenging hitters because of it.

The walking more, in my ever so humble opinion, comes from some of the bully guys just not having the control they've had in the past. Wheeler, especially, seems like he is about 50/50 in his appearances. He is either pinpoint sharp, or just hurling it in that general direction.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2007, 04:18:02 pm »
You'd rather see Lee failing to catch a sinking liner to left and then goofy lummoxing around the Crawford Box wall trying to find the baseball?

Honestly. Stop being obtuse.


Yes I would. Leftfielders are typically less involved throughout the course of a game than first baseman.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2007, 04:19:14 pm »


any given gamenight where Pence isN'T in the lineup would be considered giving up if you ask me.

you are fucking insane.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2007, 04:19:48 pm »
You'd rather see Lee failing to catch a sinking liner to left and then goofy lummoxing around the Crawford Box wall trying to find the baseball?

Honestly. Stop being obtuse.


I also failed to mention its the one spot he's played the most on the field, thereby implying he's 'comfortable' there.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2007, 04:20:19 pm »
It would take some persuading to convince me that the difference between a bullpen with a 3.94 ERA last season and a bullpen with a 5.30 ERA this season is primarily or even sizeably due to the fielders. The fielders can only do so much about breaking balls hanging up in the strike zone.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2007, 04:23:21 pm »
you are fucking insane.


He's been our most consistent hitter since May? He's breathed life and excitement into a team 11 games under .500? You have to score more runs than the other team to win? Yes its giving up if he's not in the lineup.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2007, 04:25:04 pm »


He's been our most consistent hitter since May? He's breathed life and excitement into a team 11 games under .500? You have to score more runs than the other team to win? Yes its giving up if he's not in the lineup.

When Berkman missed a couple games due to suspension, were the Astros "giving up" those games?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2007, 04:26:46 pm »
When Berkman missed a couple games due to suspension, were the Astros "giving up" those games?

 nah cause he was suspended, not our choice obviously. and i wouldn't say he was completely out of his slump at that point too.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2007, 04:26:52 pm »
The homeruns and striking out speaks to challenging more hitters (to me).  Walks?  That is strange given the need to challenge hitters more.  Maybe some guys are nibbling too much and trying to be too fine and end up challenging hitters because of it.

Actually, there's some statistical evidence to support your contentions about the defense's effects on the bullpen. On balls in play, i.e., balls the defense can make a play on, the 2006 bullpen yielded a .286 batting average while the 2007 bullpen is yielding a .336 batting average. Some of that may be how hard the ball is hit and where it gets hit to. But some of that may be the defense booting the ball around the field.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2007, 04:28:26 pm »

 nah cause he was suspended, not our choice obviously. and i wouldn't say he was completely out of his slump at that point too.

No, it was a conscious choice to take him out of those games. He dropped his appeal in order to serve the suspension when it suited him and the team.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2007, 04:29:41 pm »
He's been our most consistent hitter since May? He's breathed life and excitement into a team 11 games under .500? You have to score more runs than the other team to win? Yes its giving up if he's not in the lineup.

Because he's hitting well, a day off is giving up? That's so incredibly fucked.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2007, 04:31:00 pm »
Actually, there's some statistical evidence to support your contentions about the defense's effects on the bullpen. On balls in play, i.e., balls the defense can make a play on, the 2006 bullpen yielded a .286 batting average while the 2007 bullpen is yielding a .336 batting average. Some of that may be how hard the ball is hit and where it gets hit to. But some of that may be the defense booting the ball around the field.

not "booting it around." not getting to it, and turning outs into hits.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2007, 04:31:22 pm »
No, it was a conscious choice to take him out of those games. He dropped his appeal in order to serve the suspension when it suited him and the team.


well he HAD to miss those games so it didn't matter when it happend, it just had to happen. regardless, at that point taking his bat out wouldn't have hurt as much as pence's bat out.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2007, 04:32:37 pm »
Because he's hitting well, a day off is giving up? That's so incredibly fucked.
[/quote

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2007, 04:32:53 pm »
obvious to me that you have never pitched.

Since you have, please share your experience. What part of it is due to how the pitchers are pitching, and what part of it is due to how the fielders are fielding?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2007, 04:33:37 pm »


He's been our most consistent hitter since May? He's breathed life and excitement into a team 11 games under .500? You have to score more runs than the other team to win? Yes its giving up if he's not in the lineup.

you ought to be wearing bobby sox and a poodle skirt and carrying your autograph book to the "We Love Hunter" club meeting.

"breathed life and excitement" into the team? holy crap, are you a 16 year old girl?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2007, 04:34:14 pm »
24 year olds don't need days off.
Cause you know, every 24 yr old plays every day.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2007, 04:35:03 pm »


well he HAD to miss those games so it didn't matter when it happend, it just had to happen. regardless, at that point taking his bat out wouldn't have hurt as much as pence's bat out.

Alright. I'm officially on the "you are delusional" side of the debate.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2007, 04:35:11 pm »
Since you have, please share your experience. What part of it is due to how the pitchers are pitching, and what part of it is due to how the fielders are fielding?

look above your post. i did.

it is a combined effort, but you cannot understate the effect of a slow defense on a pitcher's ERA.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2007, 04:35:58 pm »
you ought to be wearing bobby sox and a poodle skirt and carrying your autograph book to the "We Love Hunter" club meeting.

"breathed life and excitement" into the team? holy crap, are you a 16 year old girl?

stars in your eyes, for sure. be still your pounding heart!


yeah jim, your the cool old mature guy here, we all know defense is important thanks for reminding me dad. your the same one smiling when he racks up 4 hit games and scores half our runs.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2007, 04:37:04 pm »
Alright. I'm officially on the "you are delusional" side of the debate.


i said THEN, now the way berkman is raking hes probly our most important stick.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2007, 04:38:24 pm »


yeah jim, your the cool old mature guy here, we all know defense is important thanks for reminding me dad. your the same one smiling when he racks up 4 hit games and scores half our runs.

Again, I don't recall anybody in here having a problem with Pence's offense or his playing regularly. What's the line of reasoning you're pursuing here?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2007, 04:39:40 pm »


i said THEN, now the way berkman is raking hes probly our most important stick.

Because Hunter's inspiration has finally ignited Berkman's bat? What happens when his inspiration sits for a game? Or is that Burke?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2007, 04:39:42 pm »


yeah jim, your the cool old mature guy here, we all know defense is important thanks for reminding me dad. your the same one smiling when he racks up 4 hit games and scores half our runs.

WTF does this mean. when you translate, i'll respond.

getting four hits is great, and if he scores, that means someone else is hitting too.

your hero worship of a guy who is no better than a work in progress is insane. he hustles and works hard, and so far his hitting has been better than anyone, including him, could have expected. he has a long way to go, though, and saying that a day off is giving up is insane.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2007, 04:41:57 pm »
look above your post. i did.

it is a combined effort, but you cannot understate the effect of a slow defense on a pitcher's ERA.

The defense hasn't been doing the bullpen any favors. But they haven't been as sharp as they were last year, either.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2007, 04:42:43 pm »
The defense hasn't been doing the bullpen any favors. But they haven't been as sharp as they were last year, either.

i agree. that's makes the defense even more important.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2007, 04:44:30 pm »
Again, I don't recall anybody in here having a problem with Pence's offense or his playing regularly. What's the line of reasoning you're pursuing here?


I'm saying yes I agree Pence's D is bad. Awful even. But because of our lack of other legit options he's the CFer. He's a great offensive player and I think we should be doing everything in our power to keep him in the lineup at all times, like Garner is already doing. And I'm pretty sure others are disagreeing with the 'keep him in the lineup at all times' par.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2007, 04:46:29 pm »


I'm saying yes I agree Pence's D is bad. Awful even. But because of our lack of other legit options he's the CFer. He's a great offensive player and I think we should be doing everything in our power to keep him in the lineup at all times, like Garner is already doing. And I'm pretty sure others are disagreeing with the 'keep him in the lineup at all times' par.

I simply don't understand where you got the notion that anyone here thinks he shouldn't be starting.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2007, 04:47:24 pm »
WTF does this mean. when you translate, i'll respond.

getting four hits is great, and if he scores, that means someone else is hitting too.

your hero worship of a guy who is no better than a work in progress is insane. he hustles and works hard, and so far his hitting has been better than anyone, including him, could have expected. he has a long way to go, though, and saying that a day off is giving up is insane.

i'm not your dad. do not call me that again.




hero worship? because i want him in the lineup every day that he's healthy? honestly how many days a week would you have him OUT of the lineup?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2007, 04:48:58 pm »
I simply don't understand where you got the notion that anyone here thinks he shouldn't be starting.


Well I suggested putting him in the lineup every day he can physically play. I guess others here wanna see better defense out in center occasionally I guess? I'm not even quite sure who im arguing with here anymore.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2007, 04:50:45 pm »


hero worship? because i want him in the lineup every day that he's healthy? honestly how many days a week would you have him OUT of the lineup?

go back to bed. no one said bench him. what people reacted to was your saying that not having him in the lineup is giving up.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2007, 04:52:14 pm »
go back to bed. no one said bench him. what people reacted to was your saying that not having him in the lineup is giving up.


'giving up' mightve been extreme. 'a bad idea' mightve been a better phrasing.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2007, 04:54:55 pm »
Alright. I'm officially on the "you are delusional" side of the debate.

I think Legs of eggs (stupid name by the way) is wrong, but not horribly so.  Just that sitting Pence is not a sign of quitting.  Few players play every game each year.  Sitting Pence down is not the end of the world.  
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2007, 04:57:27 pm »
'giving up' mightve been extreme. 'a bad idea' mightve been a better phrasing.

'Giving up' was ridiculous. 'Bad idea' isn't a ton better. Maybe if he gets a day off, it's because the club has a decent reason to believe that he needs it, not because someone is incompetent or actively attempting to sabotage the team. Why are you even arguing the point?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2007, 04:58:20 pm »
I think Legs of eggs (stupid name by the way) is wrong, but not horribly so.  Just that sitting Pence is not a sign of quitting.  Few players play every game each year.  Sitting Pence down is not the end of the world.  

 My legs got scrambled in Nam. They don't work. I can't help that. I rephrased to say it's 'a bad idea' not 'giving up' like I said, so sue me sorry. I just think it would seriously change how the rest of the lineup would hit if he were to not be in there.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2007, 05:00:01 pm »
'Giving up' was ridiculous. 'Bad idea' isn't a ton better. Maybe if he gets a day off, it's because the club has a decent reason to believe that he needs it, not because someone is incompetent or actively attempting to sabotage the team. Why are you even arguing the point?


Well I'm fine with that if the club believe he needs it. I'm not fine with it if its a hysterical move made in fear of his crappy defense. And that's only because it'd probly be Burke in center.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2007, 05:00:10 pm »

 I just think it would seriously change how the rest of the lineup would hit if he were to not be in there.

this is what is total bullshit.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2007, 05:05:02 pm »
this is what is total bullshit.


well i don't think we'll find out otherwise cause he's been glued to the lineup since April 29.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2007, 05:06:57 pm »


Well I'm fine with that if the club believe he needs it. I'm not fine with it if its a hysterical move made in fear of his crappy defense. And that's only because it'd probly be Burke in center.

Nobody wants to see Burke in CF less than me.  I was one of the few here clapping loudly when Hunter got the call up simply because Burke in CF was a nightmare.  Turns out Hunter hasn't been much better, at least in the field.  

Me, I'd run Hunter out there everyday and when it looks like he could use a day off, I'd give him a rest.  I'd also hire Terry Puhl or someone like Puhl to teach the kid how to play the OF properly.  He's a bit of a goony bird out there.  Hell, he's a bit of a goony bird in the batter's box as well.  But I think he has enough natural ability you could teach/coach the goony bird out of him.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2007, 05:09:39 pm »
Nobody wants to see Burke in CF less than me.  I was one of the few here clapping loudly when Hunter got the call up simply because Burke in CF was a nightmare.  Turns out Hunter hasn't been much better, at least in the field.  

Me, I'd run Hunter out there everyday and when it looks like he could use a day off, I'd give him a rest.  I'd also hire Terry Puhl or someone like Puhl to teach the kid how to play the OF properly.  He's a bit of a goony bird out there.  Hell, he's a bit of a goony bird in the batter's box as well.  But I think he has enough natural ability you could teach/coach the goony bird out of him.


I agree. I don't think he looks like he needs a day off yet though even after last nights fuck up.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2007, 05:14:17 pm »
Nobody wants to see Burke in CF less than me.  I was one of the few here clapping loudly when Hunter got the call up simply because Burke in CF was a nightmare.  Turns out Hunter hasn't been much better, at least in the field.  

Me, I'd run Hunter out there everyday and when it looks like he could use a day off, I'd give him a rest.  I'd also hire Terry Puhl or someone like Puhl to teach the kid how to play the OF properly.  He's a bit of a goony bird out there.  Hell, he's a bit of a goony bird in the batter's box as well.  But I think he has enough natural ability you could teach/coach the goony bird out of him.

He's way more under control in the batters box.  Quick hands too.  It has been a real surprise to me the number of fundamental things that he seems not to have picked up.  How to run when you're intending to catch any kind of ball, foot or base, seems basic to me.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2007, 05:28:58 pm »


I'm saying yes I agree Pence's D is bad. Awful even. But because of our lack of other legit options he's the CFer. He's a great offensive player and I think we should be doing everything in our power to keep him in the lineup at all times, like Garner is already doing. And I'm pretty sure others are disagreeing with the 'keep him in the lineup at all times' par.

I don't think that's the case. I don't think anybody here is asserting that he shouldn't be starting.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2007, 05:30:47 pm »
He's way more under control in the batters box.  Quick hands too.  It has been a real surprise to me the number of fundamental things that he seems not to have picked up.  How to run when you're intending to catch any kind of ball, foot or base, seems basic to me.

He does seem to get his hands through the hitting zone fairly quickly.  He can turn on an inside pitch and keep it fair.  At first I thought it was his height that made him look so "goony".  But its not his height.  He's just an awkward athlete, as weird as that seems.  I think an offseason of ballet and blinking lessons are in order.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2007, 05:33:33 pm »
I don't think that's the case. I don't think anybody here is asserting that he shouldn't be starting.



Well then we all agree.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2007, 05:39:22 pm »
Speaking of CF candidates, how did Josh Anderson disappear from the radar so quickly?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2007, 05:52:41 pm »

 i went back and re-read limey's post about 10 times and couldn't see what else he'd be implying, figured the hang over from this morning scrambled me thoughts for the day i guess

My point was/is that Pence is not a long term solution for CF unless he gets a lot better at catching and throwing.  LF is set for six years and the catching/throwing thing is still a problem in RF.  I'm not saying that they will or should trade Pence, but they very well might.

And if the trade is a good one, I won't complain.  Only in people's dreams can you get something for nothing...since Cam Bonifay disappeared.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2007, 06:29:30 pm »
The defense hasn't been doing the bullpen any favors. But they haven't been as sharp as they were last year, either.


I think what Jim is driving at is the effect beyond the immediate effect of making an error or two.  If you've ever pitched, you know how much of it is mental, being comfortable, knowing what you can and cant' do, etc.  Good defense does more for a pitcher than the obvious catching fly balls or fielding ground balls.  It adds a boost to a pitchers ability or puts him under tremedous pressure.  It's a relationship not unlike a pitcher has with his catcher and it affects his performance in ways that cannot be directly quantified.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2007, 06:50:43 pm »


I agree. I don't think he looks like he needs a day off yet though even after last nights fuck up.


At this point, his defense is iffy overall, but if one's argument is his hitting outweighs whatever he does or doesn't do in CF, well. . . how do you prove that?  Which games?  Every game?

One could make the argument Pence!! has been on an offensive hot streak since he was called up at the end of April.  Through last night, he was .342/.368/.580.  Can't knock that.

Still, my main impressions of Pence!! offensively since he has come up are 1.) his batting average is the main component of his offensive value, and 2.) he hits in spurts, looking like fucking Godzilla!! for a few games, and something more like the Geico gekko the next.  I wanted to look at his game logs to see if I was missing something.

First of all, this is entirely arbitrary.  One could group his games in sets however one wanted to.  It is possible I indulged in some cherry-picking along the way, but I was trying not to.  The two things I wanted to do were to look at his games in chronological order, and group them by when he was "hot", and when he wasn't.  By "hot", I mean multi-hit games mostly, which have come in bunches for Pence!! so far.  Mixed in with those might be a 1-for here and there, amidst the hot streak.  Alternately, the other set I was going for was his streaks of 1-fors and 0-fors, which have also teneded to come in bunches for him to this point.

2 games -- 3-for-7 (Apr 28-29)
6 games -- 4-for-25  (May 1-6)
1 game -- 2-for-4  (May 7)
3 games -- 2-for-12  (May 8-9, 11)
8 games -- 17-for-29  (May 12-13, 15-20)
2 games -- 0-for-8  (May 21-22)
5 games -- 10-for-19  (May 23-27)
2 games -- 0-for-7  (May 29-30)
4 games -- 10-for-17  (May 31-Jun 3)
1 game -- 0-for-4 (Jun 5)
2 games -- 4-for-9  (Jun 6-7)
3 games -- 2-for-13  (Jun 8, injury, 11-12)
1 game -- 2-for-4  (Jun 13)
3 games -- 2-for-16  (Jun 14-16)
4 games -- 10-for-21  (Jun 17-20)
2 games -- 1-for-7  (Jun 22-23)
1 game -- 4-for-6 (Jun 24)
6 games -- 4-for-26  (Jun 25-30)
2 games -- 6-for-10  (Jul 1-2)

Some of the ups and downs have to do with Pence!! learning the league, and the league learning him.  It may be the whole thing is too small a sample to get anything useful from.

One thing that jumps out at me -- Pence!! has racked up 82% of his hits (68) thus far in just 52% of his starts (30).  Or to put it another way, in his non multi-hit games, nearly half the games he starts, remember, he hits .127.  One-Two-Seven.  Draw your own conclusions; I don't think it would be way out of line to say that, so far, Pence!! is a holy terror at the plate about half the time, and almost useless the other half.  He may or may not become more consistent with experience.  So far he isn't, and he hasn't shown much inclination to get on base any other way than by hits, either.  And in your words his defense is bad to awful.

Given all that, would it not be wise to sit him (as opposed to "rest" him) from time to time when one has observed he appears to be in one of his down cycles?  Wouldn't it be the opposite of giving up or even a bad idea to sit him in favor of a guy who is a better defensive player and might bring more offense on that night?

Re:  The "letdown" hypothesis

May 1-6 - (60-for-199) 3-3
May 8-9, sit, 11 - (23-for-103) 1-2 (0-1)
May 21-22 - (12-for-63) 0-2
May 29-30 - (10-for-62) 0-2
Jun 5 - (6-for-31) 1-0
Jun 8, injury, injury, 11-12 - (39-for-169) 2-1 (1-1)
Jun 14-16 - (41-for-113) 2-1
Jun 22-23 - (13-for-67) 0-2
Jun 25-30 - (47-for-203) 2-4

In the twenty-eight games Pence!! made little offensive contribution, or rather was hitting .127, the Astros as a team were 11-17 a .393 winning percentage (against their .434 overall), and hit .249 (.261 in all games.)  In the three games Pence!! has missed so far, the team was 1-2.  All three games were road games, albeit against bad teams (Dickities, White Sox.)  The team was 9-13 when Pence!! was called up, and have gone 29-32 since (28-30 in the games he has played in.)

It is pretty clear his addition offensively has been a plus; I doubt anyone would argue against that.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that sitting him from time to time would be a huge letdown;  hell, if done wisely, it might actually help him, and the team.

Personally, my favorite thing about Pence!! so far is watching him run the bases.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2007, 07:12:46 pm »
among many good points you make, i think the best is that pence is a liability to this team when he's not getting hits.  he never makes productive outs, his substandard defense and throwing arm have been well-documented, and he almost never draws walks or works the count unless the pitcher is wild, and even then mostly only if it's the second or third time pence has faced him that game.  he appears to be a hard-worker, and he appears to be the type who is eager to learn from his mistakes, so i would expect this to change over time.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2007, 11:47:28 am »
Nobody wants to see Burke in CF less than me.  I was one of the few here clapping loudly when Hunter got the call up simply because Burke in CF was a nightmare.  Turns out Hunter hasn't been much better, at least in the field.  

Me, I'd run Hunter out there everyday and when it looks like he could use a day off, I'd give him a rest.  I'd also hire Terry Puhl or someone like Puhl to teach the kid how to play the OF properly.  He's a bit of a goony bird out there.  Hell, he's a bit of a goony bird in the batter's box as well.  But I think he has enough natural ability you could teach/coach the goony bird out of him.


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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2007, 01:32:18 pm »


Still, my main impressions of Pence!! offensively since he has come up are 1.) his batting average is the main component of his offensive value, and 2.) he hits in spurts, looking like fucking Godzilla!! for a few games, and something more like the Geico gekko the next.  I wanted to look at his game logs to see if I was missing something.



Isn't it a commonplace that hitting, more than pitching, tends to run hot and cold?  What you might be missing is not Pence's batting performance, but whether--other than the .345 part of it--it's anything much out of the ordinary for lots, or at least a significant some, of other hitters.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #105 on: July 05, 2007, 01:38:18 pm »
Still, my main impressions of Pence!! offensively since he has come up are 1.) his batting average is the main component of his offensive value,

Sorry, but no way.  He's tied for 12th in extra base hits, in 15 fewer games than anyone in front of him.  He's top-10 in isolated power.

The phrase you hear most to describe him is "the ball jumps off his bat".  (Well, that and "he NEVER blinks!")  That is not someone whose primary value is his average - that's someone who drives the ball.

Quote
Personally, my favorite thing about Pence!! so far is watching him run the bases.

Hell yes.  I think this is why Biggio has taken the young man under his wing - as though he's muttering to Yoda Bagwell, "that boy is our last hope."
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2007, 01:40:59 pm »
Sorry, but no way.  He's tied for 12th in extra base hits, in 15 fewer games than anyone in front of him.  He's top-10 in isolated power.

The phrase you hear most to describe him is "the ball jumps off his bat".  (Well, that and "he NEVER blinks!")  That is not someone whose primary value is his average - that's someone who drives the ball.

Hell yes.  I think this is why Biggio has taken the young man under his wing - as though he's muttering to Yoda Bagwell, "that boy is our last hope."

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2007, 01:43:43 pm »
"There is another..."

Pence does have a sister... hmmmmm.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2007, 01:48:35 pm »
Hell yes.  I think this is why Biggio has taken the young man under his wing - as though he's muttering to Yoda Bagwell, "that boy is our last hope."

Pence has good form and instincts running the bases.  He drops down and digs which gives him very quick starts.  The way he jams on his knees when he takes a lead still looks odd to me.  On the other topic, when have we ever heard Chris Burke comment on something that Biggio helped him with?

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2007, 01:49:46 pm »
Pence does have a sister... hmmmmm.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2007, 01:50:02 pm »
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2007, 01:50:52 pm »
Pence has good form and instincts running the bases.  He drops down and digs which gives him very quick starts.  The way he jams on his knees when he takes a lead still looks odd to me.  On the other topic, when have we ever heard Chris Burke comment on something that Biggio helped him with?

We heard how Biggio has helped Burke stay out of the starting 2B position.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2007, 01:51:16 pm »
Great then Purp can fix the bullpen with a transport load of Wookiees.  Imagine the heat an 8 foot tall space ape could bring.

Can you imagine how fast Angel Hernandez would eject a Wookie?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2007, 01:52:07 pm »
Great then Purp can fix the bullpen with a transport load of Wookiees.  Imagine the heat an 8 foot tall space ape could bring.

Let's hope we don't wind up with a boatload of Ewoks instead.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2007, 01:55:47 pm »
Let's hope we don't wind up with a boatload of Ewoks instead.
Ewoks would be good if you needed some guys on base.  Try finding the strike zone on one of those things.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2007, 01:57:55 pm »
We heard how Biggio has helped Burke stay out of the starting 2B position.

Berkman and AE have nothing but praise for Burke (publically), but I always think back when Biggio reminisces about his first few years... "I kept my mouth shut."
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2007, 02:08:42 pm »
Can you imagine how fast Angel Hernandez would eject a Wookie?

I'd like to see him do that.
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2007, 02:20:17 pm »
Hell yes.  I think this is why Biggio has taken the young man under his wing - as though he's muttering to Yoda Bagwell, "that boy is our last hope."

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2007, 02:31:01 pm »
Can you imagine how fast Angel Hernandez would eject a Wookie?

Hernandez is an anti-wookite.

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2007, 02:51:09 pm »
He has a twin.

http://www.ridersinthesky.com/?content=photos

WTF do gay cowboys (NTTAWWT) have to do with this?
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2007, 02:52:03 pm »
Can you imagine how fast Angel Hernandez would eject a Wookie?

Humans don't pull umpires arms out of their sockets when they're ejected...
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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2007, 03:20:22 pm »
This is in response to strosrays really long post:

So you think it Pence is a streaky type hitter, so I compared him to Berkman this year.  And while Berkman has alot more 1 game flip-flopping (from 0 or 1 hit games to 2+ hit games), he does have his streaks too, but this has been a down year for him as a whole.

Dates: (# of games if more than 1) hits-ab totals
April 2-6:(4) 2-17
April 7: 2-4
April 8-18:(8) 4-25
April 19: 2-5
April 20-24:(5) 3-16
April 25-26:(2) 4-10
April 27: 1-4
April 28: 3-4
April 29-May 4:(5) 4-13
May 5: 2-3
May 6-7:(2) 2-7
May 8: 2-4
May 9: 1-3
May 10: 2-4
May 11-June 5:(22) 12-74
June 6: 2-4
June 7-8:(2) 1-6
Jun 9: 3-5
June 10-14:(3) 3-12
June 15: 2-4
June 16-19:(3) 3-11
June 20-24:(3) 6-14
June 25-26:(2) 0-7
June 27: 2-5
June 28: 1-5
June 29: 2-5
June 30: 1-3
July 1: 2-3
July 2-3:(2) 1-7
July 4: 2-5

Not sure what all this means, but I think it fair to say Pence has been more of an offensive threat THIS year than Berkman, but don't go silly and think him better or more valuable than the Big Puma.  And no, I didn't got all out like you did to figure his hitting in loses, vs wins... I have to get SOME work done at work, you know.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 03:51:46 pm by Froback »

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2007, 03:53:11 pm »
Sorry, but no way.  He's tied for 12th in extra base hits, in 15 fewer games than anyone in front of him.  He's top-10 in isolated power.
Just to support MM, Pence his 3rd in SLG of those who qualify for Batting Title.
His .598 SLG is behind only Bond: .614 and Fielder: .604

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Re: Maybe Pence needs a new glove...
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2007, 04:25:59 pm »
Just to support MM, Pence his 3rd in SLG of those who qualify for Batting Title.
His .598 SLG is behind only Bond: .614 and Fielder: .604

He's on pace to hit 48 doubles.