Notes from SI:

[MusicMan]

• It could be a bizarro trade-deadline season, as well. Nearly every team seeks relief help, and there's almost none to be found on the market so far. Unless Houston changes course and decides to dangle Brad Lidge, Chad Qualls and Dan Wheeler, by far the best two relievers likely to be traded are Texas' Eric Gagne and Akinori Otsuka.

Smells like... potential.

• One NL executive says the Braves might be better off giving the first-base job to Jarrod Saltalamacchia over Pete Thorman.

• Another opined of the Braves' rotation; "After [John] Smoltz and [Tim] Hudson, they've got nothing.''

This would explain the note earlier this week that they would only take a front-line starter for Salty.

[remy]

Wonder if they'd take Jennings straight up for Salt.

[Noe]

Smells like... potential.

The Astros love the potential of Matt Albers as a starter.  Fine, I think they're right.  But right now, if he were a reliever and told to just go up there and go after hitters, this kid would be a very good setup man in a very short time.  I don't know what happened to Paul Estrada, but my first move would be to bring back Albers and try him in the pen for a while to see if this would work.  It would clear the way for a Qualls or Wheeler trade.  IMHO of course.

[WulawHorn]

The Astros love the potential of Matt Albers as a starter.  Fine, I think they're right.  But right now, if he were a reliever and told to just go up there and go after hitters, this kid would be a very good setup man in a very short time.  I don't know what happened to Paul Estrada, but my first move would be to bring back Albers and try him in the pen for a while to see if this would work.  It would clear the way for a Qualls or Wheeler trade.  IMHO of course.

Noe- interesting thoughts- I'd like to see it happen- but isn't he a sinker down in the zone guy, and would he be successful in 1 or 2 inning stints (a lot of those guys seem like they get better as they get tired and the game goes on).

My question now, with the bully imploding, is do wheeler and Qualls even have any value. they are under club control each for some time, so you don't move them unless you get real value- can you get that value for them with shaky performance lately (I know both their track records are good).

Seems like if you tried to move them now you might be selling low.

[JGrave]

a lot of those guys seem like they get better as they get tired and the game goes on.

Worrell?  Is that you? 

[WulawHorn]

Worrell?  Is that you? 

Sampson has had a couple games like that lately. I've heard others on the board make reference to similar- is this not fundamentally accurate?  I've heard the same said of Webb- I really don't know, that's why I was asking Noe if he thought it would be a problem at all- b/c I greatly respect his knowledge on issues of this sort and kind, that I admittedly know/understand little about.

Would like to hear from other experts as well like Jimr et al.

[Noe]

Noe- interesting thoughts- I'd like to see it happen- but isn't he a sinker down in the zone guy, and would he be successful in 1 or 2 inning stints (a lot of those guys seem like they get better as they get tired and the game goes on).

My question now, with the bully imploding, is do wheeler and Qualls even have any value. they are under club control each for some time, so you don't move them unless you get real value- can you get that value for them with shaky performance lately (I know both their track records are good).

Seems like if you tried to move them now you might be selling low.

What do you think Qualls throws?

[JGrave]

Sampson has had a couple games like that lately. I've heard others on the board make reference to similar- is this not fundamentally accurate?  I've heard the same said of Webb- I really don't know, that's why I was asking Noe if he thought it would be a problem at all- b/c I greatly respect his knowledge on issues of this sort and kind, that I admittedly know/understand little about.

Would like to hear from other experts as well like Jimr et al.

I was only kidding. 

Worrell used to say that every single time Puffer was brought in the game.  My friends and I used to say that to each other when we would go out.  We got better the more we were used and tired. 

The other stock quote was, "Baggy is heating up when he starts hitting with power to right." 

[WulawHorn]

What do you think Qualls throws?

When he's right, heavy fastball down in the zone and hard slider down. When he's down he's really tough. When he's up it gets hit hard.  Dunno if some of that is a problem with being too amped up when he's not going good.  Was a starter in the minors for a good bit- right?

Like I said- I don't realy understand how that works- I'm asking a question (of you and other experts on the board) b/c I want some help with understanding the game better.  I'm not trolling for an argument- really. If I came accross that way I appologize.

[mihoba]

I was only kidding. 

Worrell used to say that every single time Puffer was brought in the game.  My friends and I used to say that to each other when we would go out.  We got better the more we were used and tired. 

The other stock quote was, "Baggy is heating up when he starts hitting with power to right." 

That swing. That swing right there.

[WulawHorn]

I was only kidding. 

Worrell used to say that every single time Puffer was brought in the game.  My friends and I used to say that to each other when we would go out.  We got better the more we were used and tired. 

The other stock quote was, "Baggy is heating up when he starts hitting with power to right." 

Oh- I remember Worrell beating the baggy dead horse. I don't remember him making a ton of use of the other comment- but I tried to ignore Worrell as much as possible (see Worrell button)

[Noe]

When he's right, heavy fastball down in the zone and hard slider down. When he's down he's really tough. When he's up it gets hit hard.  Dunno if some of that is a problem with being too amped up when he's not going good.  Was a starter in the minors for a good bit- right?

Correct.  Albers is almost the same pitcher.

Like I said- I don't realy understand how that works- I'm asking a question (of you and other experts on the board) b/c I want some help with understanding the game better.  I'm not trolling for an argument- really. If I came accross that way I appologize.

All I'm saying is you can answer your own questions pretty much.  I works better that way.

[JimR]

Sampson has had a couple games like that lately. I've heard others on the board make reference to similar- is this not fundamentally accurate?  I've heard the same said of Webb- I really don't know, that's why I was asking Noe if he thought it would be a problem at all- b/c I greatly respect his knowledge on issues of this sort and kind, that I admittedly know/understand little about.

Would like to hear from other experts as well like Jimr et al.

i threw a sinker. if fact, that is the only reason i made a college team. a sinker sinks every time...in the bullpen, throwing batting practice, playing catch or pitching in a game. you can make it not sink (KAPOW!), but no, being tired does nothing more than make you tired.

addendum: perhaps what the proponents of tired are saying is that when a pitcher is fresh, he might try to throw to hard and might get away from the sinker. i do not know. i do know that one can throw good sinkers from the very first pitch.

[JimR]

When he's right, heavy fastball down in the zone and hard slider down. When he's down he's really tough. When he's up it gets hit hard.  Dunno if some of that is a problem with being too amped up when he's not going good.  Was a starter in the minors for a good bit- right?

he gets under the ball and slings it at the plate. that keeps his sinker from sinking and flattens his slider. i think it probably is a result of fatigue.

a lousy starter at RR. he was very frustrating to watch.

[stubbyc]

The Astros love the potential of Matt Albers as a starter.  Fine, I think they're right.  But right now, if he were a reliever and told to just go up there and go after hitters, this kid would be a very good setup man in a very short time.  I don't know what happened to Paul Estrada, but my first move would be to bring back Albers and try him in the pen for a while to see if this would work.  It would clear the way for a Qualls or Wheeler trade.  IMHO of course.

Why would you trade Qualls or Wheeler right now though? Wheeler's value is probably lower than it has been since '04. Qualls isn't a free agent until after the 2010 season. They're both cheap. I don't know what you could get for them, but I don't think right now is the time to trade them. Particularly if all you're getting is spare parts or B/C prospects. The biggest trading chit is Lidge and I could understand not moving him too.

What about Gutierrez? Do they look at him like a starter or reliever long-term?

[Arky Vaughan]

I don't know what you could get for them, but I don't think right now is the time to trade them.

I disagree. I would trade either of them depending on what you could get.

[Jacksonian]

Why would you trade Qualls or Wheeler right now though? Wheeler's value is probably lower than it has been since '04. Qualls isn't a free agent until after the 2010 season. They're both cheap. I don't know what you could get for them, but I don't think right now is the time to trade them. Particularly if all you're getting is spare parts or B/C prospects. The biggest trading chit is Lidge and I could understand not moving him too.

What about Gutierrez? Do they look at him like a starter or reliever long-term?

Both are World Series experienced late inning relievers.  There's rare value in that.

Gutierrez, if he can make it through a full season, would project as a starter.  If he keeps breaking down mid-season; late inning reliever.

[toddthebod]

I would trade all of Lidge, Wheeler, and Qualls in the right deals and start reconstructing the bullpen over again in the offseason.  It seems to me that the Astros have a couple of marketable players:  The three relievers, Lamb, Loretta, and Jennings.

Of these players, the only one who I would really want to keep is Loretta because I think that he should be the Astros starting secondbaseman next season.

Maybe the Astros can trade Jennings to the Braves for Salty.  The Yankees might be interested in Lamb.  They certainly would be interested in the relievers.  Same goes for the Mets.  Same goes for a ton of teams, all of whom need relievers.

[JimR]

I would trade all of Lidge, Wheeler, and Qualls in the right deals and start reconstructing the bullpen over again in the offseason.  

you cannot do that. who would you put there? it makes no sense to trade relievers for relievers, and there is nothing in RR to build a new bullpen with. imo, trading all three would be irresponsible.

[jbm]

you cannot do that. who would you put there? it makes no sense to trade relievers for relievers, and there is nothing in RR to build a new bullpen with. imo, trading all three would be irresponsible.

What is your opinion of Estrada, might he one day fill a role for the Astros or is that unlikely?

[JimR]

What is your opinion of Estrada, might he one day fill a role for the Astros or is that unlikely?

dunno. good arm, but reports on his competitiveness and somewhat timid approach are not favorable.

[Arky Vaughan]

I would trade all of Lidge, Wheeler, and Qualls in the right deals and start reconstructing the bullpen over again in the offseason.  It seems to me that the Astros have a couple of marketable players:  The three relievers, Lamb, Loretta, and Jennings.

Of these players, the only one who I would really want to keep is Loretta because I think that he should be the Astros starting secondbaseman next season.

Maybe the Astros can trade Jennings to the Braves for Salty.  The Yankees might be interested in Lamb.  They certainly would be interested in the relievers.  Same goes for the Mets.  Same goes for a ton of teams, all of whom need relievers.

Loretta only has a one-year deal, just like Jennings and Lamb.

[WulawHorn]

you cannot do that. who would you put there? it makes no sense to trade relievers for relievers, and there is nothing in RR to build a new bullpen with. imo, trading all three would be irresponsible.

I wouldn't think that you'd be talking about getting relievers back- I'd think it'd be starters, 3B, 2B and Catcher you'd be looking for.  Can you  rebuild an entire bullpen through free agency and the minor's in an off season?  I have no idea.

I'd think it'd be tough though.

[Astroholic]

I wouldn't think that you'd be talking about getting relievers back- I'd think it'd be starters, 3B, 2B and Catcher you'd be looking for.  Can you  rebuild an entire bullpen through free agency and the minor's in an off season?  I have no idea.

I'd think it'd be tough though.

Cnances are you don't trade all three.  Nieve could pitch out of the pen next yr.  I would look at these 4 as tradeable and in this order.
1.Jennings
2.Lamb
3.Lidge/Wheeler/Qualls (only 1/3)
4.Loretta

[MusicMan]

Before we all go trading Lamb, let's remember a few things:

1.  The FA market (non-ARod) at 3b this winter will Suck.  Yes, with a capital S.
2.  Unless Ransom is called up and answers the bell, the Astros have no internal answer at 3b.
3.  Lamb has repeatedly expressed his desire to play somewhere as the full-time 3b.

[Astroholic]

Before we all go trading Lamb, let's remember a few things:

1.  The FA market (non-ARod) at 3b this winter will Suck.  Yes, with a capital S.
2.  Unless Ransom is called up and answers the bell, the Astros have no internal answer at 3b.
3.  Lamb has repeatedly expressed his desire to play somewhere as the full-time 3b.

1. Trades my friend. 
2.  Ransom probably won't be ready.
3.  Lamb can express all he wants, does not mean it will happen.

What are Rolen and Chippers status next year?

Looks like Rolen thru 09
and Chipper thru 08

[JimR]

1. Trades my friend. 
2.  Ransom probably won't be ready.
3.  Lamb can express all he wants, does not mean it will happen.

What are Rolen and Chippers status next year?

Looks like Rolen thru 09
and Chipper thru 08

Ransom not ready? what do you mean? he is a veteran with MLB experience.

[Astroholic]

Ransom not ready? what do you mean? he is a veteran with MLB experience.

That shows you I don't know what the hell Im talking about.

[Limey]

What are Rolen and Chippers status next year?

Looks like Rolen thru 09
and Chipper thru 08

Larry Wayne's got an option for 2009, don't know whose.  Fuck him anyway.

Rolen's signed through 2010; full NTC.  Fuck him and his .368 SLG% too.

[Craig]

What are Rolen and Chippers status next year?

15-day and 60-day, most likely. Not necessarily in that order.

[Astroholic]

15-day and 60-day, most likely. Not necessarily in that order.

Nice

here are C. Ransom's stats in case anyone was/is interested

Name           POS G  AB  R   H  2B 3B HR RBI TB   BB SO SB CS  OBP SLG  AVG OPS E
Cody Ransom 3B  73 264 37 69 22 0  11  48  124  29 71 15 4   .340 .470 .261 .810 3

[Noe]

Why would you trade Qualls or Wheeler right now though?

I don't think most teams look at short term performance as indicative of what a good reliever might mean to them for a long term goal of really solidifying the chances of going to the World Series and winning the damn thing.  Detroit went last year, they want to go back and do it right.  Do they think they have the right combo or relievers and everyday players to do it and they need to stand pat?

I dunno.  My idea is that they probably don't and Qualls or Wheeler will get anyone's attention that is wanting to strengthen themselves for a pennant run.  IMHO of course.

[Noe]

I wouldn't think that you'd be talking about getting relievers back- I'd think it'd be starters, 3B, 2B and Catcher you'd be looking for.  Can you  rebuild an entire bullpen through free agency and the minor's in an off season?  I have no idea.

I'd think it'd be tough though.

But to get rid of three quality relievers is really asking for trouble.  One?  Yeah, but all three!!!  No way.

[JSAstrosFan]

But to get rid of three quality relievers is really asking for trouble.  One?  Yeah, but all three!!!  No way.

Can we even afford to lose one? Aren't we currently seeing the effects of losing one right now?

[Jacksonian]

I don't know what happened to Paul Estrada, but my first move would be to bring back Albers and try him in the pen for a while to see if this would work. 

Noestradamus.

[Noe]

Noestradamus.

This is just the beginning.  BTW - I'm going out looking for acrons this early evening in my back yard.  I shall do this blindfolded to see just how lucky I really am!

[Noe]

Can we even afford to lose one? Aren't we currently seeing the effects of losing one right now?

I think that the effect was White, Randolph and several others really pitching horribly and with White, he just may not have it any more based on his injury.  Albers is a good candidate to try for a few weeks to evaluate if you can indeed make a move.

Nothing to lose at this point.

[stubbyc]

I disagree. I would trade either of them depending on what you could get.

Well of course. I just don't see those guys bringing back a surefire everyday 3b, OF, or C by themselves. All the trade proposals that I've seen from local newspapers (probably imaginary) are things like Qualls for Bourn, Qualls for David Murphy, Qualls for Kevin Millar etc. I don't see Qualls or Wheeler bringing back more value to this team than the value Qualls and Wheeler themselves.

I have no way of being entirely sure of this of course.

[Noe]

Well of course. I just don't see those guys bringing back a surefire everyday 3b, OF, or C by themselves. All the trade proposals that I've seen from local newspapers (probably imaginary) are things like Qualls for Bourn, Qualls for David Murphy, Qualls for Kevin Millar etc. I don't see Qualls or Wheeler bringing back more value to this team than the value Qualls and Wheeler themselves.

I have no way of being entirely sure of this of course.

I don't disagree with this.  However, it all depends on the GM and the game of chicken played during the trading deadline.  It doesn't hurt to play the game, only to lose at it.   You don't trade these guys for a dime on a dollar.  Sometimes the best trades are the ones you just don't make.

[stubbyc]

I don't think most teams look at short term performance as indicative of what a good reliever might mean to them for a long term goal of really solidifying the chances of going to the World Series and winning the damn thing.  Detroit went last year, they want to go back and do it right.  Do they think they have the right combo or relievers and everyday players to do it and they need to stand pat?

I dunno.  My idea is that they probably don't and Qualls or Wheeler will get anyone's attention that is wanting to strengthen themselves for a pennant run.  IMHO of course.

They almost certainly would. We still have Qualls under control for 3.5 more years. I just don't see why now would be the time to trade him. I have believed for a while now that Qualls will eventually inherit the closer's role.

Why not wait until he's closer to free agency? What do you think is fair trade value for Qualls or Wheeler? What kind of players would you target?

[Noe]

They almost certainly would. We still have Qualls under control for 3.5 more years. I just don't see why now would be the time to trade him. I have believed for a while now that Qualls will eventually inherit the closer's role.

Why not wait until he's closer to free agency? What do you think is fair trade value for Qualls or Wheeler? What kind of players would you target?

Didn't we talk about this already?  And you would trade Qualls because you think redundancy is in order, just like you would trade Lidge or Wheeler for the same reason.  You trade Dotel because Lidge can do the job.  You trade Wagner because you think Dotel can do the job... and so on.

[JimR]

tick...tick...tick...

[toddthebod]

I wouldn't think that you'd be talking about getting relievers back- I'd think it'd be starters, 3B, 2B and Catcher you'd be looking for.  Can you  rebuild an entire bullpen through free agency and the minor's in an off season?  I have no idea.

I'd think it'd be tough though.

Zactly.  Trade the relievers, which are the Astros most valuable commodity, for a catcher, thirdbaseman, starting pitcher, etc.  And then during the offseason, the Astros can fill the pen with minor leaguers (Nieve? Albers?) and cheap free agents.  I don't think that 2008 is going to be the Astros season, either, so I don't think that the Astros should be spending a lot of money next year on free agents.

The guy who I would like to target is Andy Laroche, the Dodgers thirdbase prospect.  If the Astros could make some trades and end up with Salty, Laroche, and maybe Gomez or Milledge, they will have done extremely well. 

As for Loretta, I know that he is not signed for next year, but we should try damn hard to resign him.  Fuck Chris Burke.

[JimR]

Zactly.  Trade the relievers, which are the Astros most valuable commodity, for a catcher, thirdbaseman, starting pitcher, etc.  And then during the offseason, the Astros can fill the pen with minor leaguers (Nieve? Albers?) and cheap free agents.  I don't think that 2008 is going to be the Astros season, either, so I don't think that the Astros should be spending a lot of money next year on free agents.

The guy who I would like to target is Andy Laroche, the Dodgers thirdbase prospect.  If the Astros could make some trades and end up with Salty, Laroche, and maybe Gomez or Milledge, they will have done extremely well. 

As for Loretta, I know that he is not signed for next year, but we should try damn hard to resign him.  Fuck Chris Burke.

todd, read what i wrote. the Astros do not have minor leaguers to make up a good bullpen. your plan to trade all three relivers is nuts.

[toddthebod]

todd, read what i wrote. the Astros do not have minor leaguers to make up a good bullpen. your plan to trade all three relivers is nuts.

I read what you wrote.  What does it make a difference if the Astros have a "good bullpen" next season?  The Astros aren't going to win the division or get the wild card in 2008 either.  So trade your marketable players and rebuild looking towards 2009.

Starting rotation next season:  Oswalt, Sampson, Backe, Rodriguez, Patton? -- Not a terrible rotation.  (maybe the Astros get a starting pitcher in return for some of the players that they trade).

Closer -- Nieve?

Balance of Bullpen -- Albers, McLemore, Borkowski, Middleton(?).  Maybe you move Woody Williams to the bullpen if he can do the job.  Otherwise, you fill the bullpen with low-priced players.  If the Astros want to splurge, maybe they can bring Dotel back to Houston.

regular players --

Berkman -- 1b
Loretta -- 2b
Everett  -- ss
Laroche  -- 3rd
Salty  -- c
Lee -- lf
Gomez -- cf
Pence -- rf

This could be an exciting team. 

[JimR]

I read what you wrote.  What does it make a difference if the Astros have a "good bullpen" next season?  The Astros aren't going to win the division or get the wild card in 2008 either.  So trade your marketable players and rebuild looking towards 2009.

Starting rotation next season:  Oswalt, Sampson, Backe, Rodriguez, Patton? -- Not a terrible rotation.  (maybe the Astros get a starting pitcher in return for some of the players that they trade).

Closer -- Nieve?

Balance of Bullpen -- Albers, McLemore, Borkowski, Middleton(?).  Maybe you move Woody Williams to the bullpen if he can do the job.  Otherwise, you fill the bullpen with low-priced players.  If the Astros want to splurge, maybe they can bring Dotel back to Houston.

regular players --

Berkman -- 1b
Loretta -- 2b
Everett  -- ss
Laroche  -- 3rd
Salty  -- c
Lee -- lf
Gomez -- cf
Pence -- rf

This could be an exciting team. 

dream on. i will be REAL surprised if they enter fire sale mode and sacrifice an entire season.

you know Nieve had major surgery? you know they abandoned the closer idea?

[jaklewein]

I read what you wrote.  What does it make a difference if the Astros have a "good bullpen" next season?  The Astros aren't going to win the division or get the wild card in 2008 either.  So trade your marketable players and rebuild looking towards 2009.

Starting rotation next season:  Oswalt, Sampson, Backe, Rodriguez, Patton? -- Not a terrible rotation.  (maybe the Astros get a starting pitcher in return for some of the players that they trade).

Closer -- Nieve?

Balance of Bullpen -- Albers, McLemore, Borkowski, Middleton(?).  Maybe you move Woody Williams to the bullpen if he can do the job.  Otherwise, you fill the bullpen with low-priced players.  If the Astros want to splurge, maybe they can bring Dotel back to Houston.

regular players --

Berkman -- 1b
Loretta -- 2b
Everett  -- ss
Laroche  -- 3rd
Salty  -- c
Lee -- lf
Gomez -- cf
Pence -- rf

This could be an exciting team. 

The Braves have been in a rough stretch lately...they seem to need a lot of things right now, including offense.  I find it hard to believe that they will trade Salty without receiving a replacement in return.  That said, Lamb along with a pitcher could be just what the doctor ordered.  Lamb would also provide insurance at 3rd for Larry Jones.  Just a thought.