Salty

[Uncle Charlie]

If this article is a tell, then Jennings will be the asking price for Salty.  That's certainly something to consider if the Astros falter in MIL this week.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07175/796740-63.stm

[Alkie]

Do it now.

[Trey]

Do it now.

The only reason NOT to do it now is that Purp feels like he can get more.  Everything I've seen says that everybody is looking for pitching rentals and nobody has got any.  I only wonder if you can get more than Salty for him.

How is his defense?

[Alkie]

Oh well, if that's the argument, then fine.

If we can get a serious ML catcher with a serious ML bat for the remainder of our Jennings rental, you do it now.

[JimR]

crazy.

[matadorph]

crazy.

which part?

[Alkie]

crazy.

Excellent post.  Well thought out and well defended.  I'm convinced.  Let's not trade a pitcher who we probably won't resign to fill not one, but two future needs.

This is why I love this place.

[MusicMan]

The White Sox are looking to move Buehrle NOW.  Wait them out.  Let them set the market.

Whoever doesn't get him will be that much more desperate.

But if you can get Salty for Jennings and Q, you take that deal and dance all the way home.

[JimR]

Excellent post.  Well thought out and well defended.  I'm convinced.  Let's not trade a pitcher who we probably won't resign to fill not one, but two future needs.

This is why I love this place.

trade Jennings if you want, but get more than an a single unproven player.

i love this place b/c personal agendas get repeated a jillion times in a variety of contexts.

[JimR]

The White Sox are looking to move Buehrle NOW.  Wait them out.  Let them set the market.

Whoever doesn't get him will be that much more desperate.

But if you can get Salty for Jennings and Q, you take that deal and dance all the way home.

do the Braves ever trade a player who comes back to bite them? they are, imo, one of the shrewdest trading clubs in MLB. a frontline pitcher AND a proven MLB backup C for a prospect, albeit a good-looking prospect? isn't that a pretty damn high price?

[MusicMan]

do the Braves ever trade a player who comes back to bite them? they, imo, one of the shrewdest tading clubs in MLB. a frontline pitcher AND a proven MLB backup C for a prospect, albeit a good-looking prospect? isn't that a pretty damn high price?

Which is why I'd want to see what the Sox get for Buehrle.  Recently, teams have gotten a lot less for their rentals.

And you are quite right about players the Braves give up - but those are usually pitchers, who have been greatly assisted by Mazzone in the past and can't replicate that elsewhere.

[JimR]

Which is why I'd want to see what the Sox get for Buehrle.  Recently, teams have gotten a lot less for their rentals.

And you are quite right about players the Braves give up - but those are usually pitchers, who have been greatly assisted by Mazzone in the past and can't replicate that elsewhere.

i am not against trading Jennings, especially if the club thinks he will not sign here, but damn, get more for him than one guy who has done nothing but show great promise.

[WulawHorn]

Which is why I'd want to see what the Sox get for Buehrle.  Recently, teams have gotten a lot less for their rentals.

And you are quite right about players the Braves give up - but those are usually pitchers, who have been greatly assisted by Mazzone in the past and can't replicate that elsewhere.

I'd do that one for one on Jennings.  Hell- I think I'd do that one for one on lidge.

who knows

[JimR]

I'd do that one for one on Jennings.  Hell- I think I'd do that one for one on lidge.

who knows

i'll bet the Braves would pay to make you a GM. the "who knows?" part is what you should be focusing on, imo.

[matadorph]

I think Jim has a point. I'd like to have that guy in an Astros uniform, but Saltalamacchia hasn't done enough at the major-league level for the Braves to be dictating such a high price. Besides, the presence of Towles and Sapp should give the Astros some leverage in any potential trade negotiations. Catcher is a definite need, but so is starting pitching. Make the Braves blink first.

[Alkie]

i am not against trading Jennings, especially if the club thinks he will not sign here, but damn, get more for him than one guy who has done nothing but show great promise.

Alright, I buy that.

RedSox have already publically stated they want Beuirurlglelougehe (mostly to keep him from going to the Yanks and to fill in for the newly DL'd Schilling).  The Sox have LOTS of things I'd like in return.

Your turn.

[MusicMan]

The Sox have LOTS of things I'd like in return.
Your turn.

Let's say you've found out that Williams wants C. Buchholz and J. Ellsbury in return, and the Red Sox are balking.  Do you counter with Jennings to get Buchholz and a lesser prospect?

[Alkie]

Let's say you've found out that Williams wants C. Buchholz and J. Ellsbury in return, and the Red Sox are balking.  Do you counter with Jennings to get Buchholz and a lesser prospect?

No, I'd rather have Salty.

[MusicMan]

According to this source, the Red Sox are willing to offer Buerhle a 5-year contract extension.

According to the source, the Red Sox not only want to keep Buehrle away from the New York Yankees and are willing to offer him a contract extension in the five-year range he is seeking, but they have a farm system loaded with players in whom the White Sox are interested.

Starting pitchers Clay Buchholz and Michael Bowden are on the White Sox' radar, as well as speedy outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury and shortstop Jed Lowrie.

[Matt]

How could anyone not be interested in a guy named Jed?

[Trey]

According to this source, the Red Sox are willing to offer Buerhle a 5-year contract extension.

Are they insane?  Why would you give Mark Buerhle a FIVE year extension?

[pravata]

Are they insane?  Why would you give Mark Buerhle a FIVE year extension?

So they wont have to negotiate in the FA market.  They have money, they can write off 2 years.

[MusicMan]

How could anyone not be interested in a guy named Jed?

Give him a break, he barely keeps his family fed.

[WulawHorn]

i'll bet the Braves would pay to make you a GM. the "who knows?" part is what you should be focusing on, imo.

I meant who knows b/c I don't think that the astros are going to want to actively trade lidge at the deadline- so who knows what his value in return would be.

Saltaafd;slkjasdgttl;isdtka would be a minimum for what I'd take in return for Lidge. If better was out there I'd be curious.

I'm good with Jennings going away if we can get value long term to improve 3rd, 2nd or catcher.

[Noe]

If the Braves are hurting for offense, why would they trade away a good hitting catcher for a pitcher?

[MusicMan]

If the Braves are hurting for offense, why would they trade away a good hitting catcher for a pitcher?

Because they have their catcher, and they don't think Salty can move to 1b fast enough to help.  They're looking to win now - Larry, Andruw, and the last of the Sniveling Women could be gone within a year.

[Fredia]

How could anyone not be interested in a guy named Jed?

now you have me trying to think of other mlb plaeyers named jed

[WulawHorn]

Because they have their catcher, and they don't think Salty can move to 1b fast enough to help.  They're looking to win now - Larry, Andruw, and the last of the Sniveling Women could be gone within a year.

Also (and I know that Noe will hate this with his offense v offense and defense v defense paradigm) great offense from the catcher often translates to mediocre or league average offense from a first baseman.  Or put another way, generally the men that squat hit 7th or 8th in the lineup. The men that play first hit in the middle of the order.

Generally.

[Kent's Moustache]

do the Braves ever trade a player who comes back to bite them? they are, imo, one of the shrewdest trading clubs in MLB. a frontline pitcher AND a proven MLB backup C for a prospect, albeit a good-looking prospect? isn't that a pretty damn high price?

The only one that comes to mind is Wainwright...

[Noe]

Because they have their catcher, and they don't think Salty can move to 1b fast enough to help.  They're looking to win now - Larry, Andruw, and the last of the Sniveling Women could be gone within a year.

Hmmmm.  Okay.  But they're having serious trouble scoring runs and right now Andruw Jones is hitting near the Mendoza line (a buck 90 sumthin'... WOW!).  Chipper Jones is an injury plagued player and even has the star pitcher on the team questioning him as a possible Jake.  And then you have have a bunch of kids and Renteria.  Means lots-o-zeros on the scoreboard for that team.

So I ask again, if he is a good hitter, is Diaz that much of an upgrade from him that you can't move him to left field to get his bat in the lineup?  And if you're going to move him any way, why not go after a bat instead?

[legs_of_eggs]

If I had any say, which I don't, I contact Jennings' people and try to work out a 3-4 year deal today. If it looks like they want FA for Jennings, then call the braves and ask about Salty. Jennings' market value = 1 above average prospect 1 major league-ready and 1 aging prospect theyre giving up on. Salty, Villareal, and some starter in AAA for Jennings and if they twist the astros arm add Q

[Noe]

Also (and I know that Noe will hate this with his offense v offense and defense v defense paradigm) great offense from the catcher often translates to mediocre or league average offense from a first baseman.  Or put another way, generally the men that squat hit 7th or 8th in the lineup. The men that play first hit in the middle of the order.

Generally.

So in essence we'd be trading our #2 or #3 one year rental for a possible #7 or #8 hitter?  Is Eric Munson that bad that this needs to be done?  I can understand having a read on Jennings as not coming back so you find the best trade available, but my question really dealt with why the Braves would do it more than anything else.

[homer]

If I had any say, which I don't, I contact Jennings' people and try to work out a 3-4 year deal today. If it looks like they want FA for Jennings, then call the braves and ask about Salty. Jennings' market value = 1 above average prospect 1 major league-ready and 1 aging prospect theyre giving up on. Salty, Villareal, and some starter in AAA for Jennings and if they twist the astros arm add Q

I wouldn't give Jennings more than 2 years.

Also, his injuries this year have diminished his trade value.

[jbm]

Jennings' market value = 1 above average prospect 1 major league-ready and 1 aging prospect theyre giving up on. Salty, Villareal, and some starter in AAA for Jennings and if they twist the astros arm add Q

I try to put myself in the Braves position.  Why would I give any good prospects for renting someone who may not be totally healthy?  Why not pursue someone I'm more confident will take the mound every fifth day.

[legs_of_eggs]

I wouldn't give Jennings more than 2 years.

Also, his injuries this year have diminished his trade value.

Yeah but maybe a multi-year deal in the next month could be cheaper than waiting til the end of the year. maybe get him in the 8-9 million a year range. 3 years 25 million? I'm just assuming hes healthy now and will make his starts.

[legs_of_eggs]

I try to put myself in the Braves position.  Why would I give any good prospects for renting someone who may not be totally healthy?  Why not pursue someone I'm more confident will take the mound every fifth day.

cause jennings has been relatively durable and reliable in the years before this. we can only assume hell make his starts from here on. given the need of starting pitching on basically every playoff team or could-be playoff team, the overall value of starters should be a lot higher. if mark buerhle's the best option out there, and knowing their gm kenny williams takes the stubborn hard-to-deal with approach to any trade, jennings could look a lot more attractive if available.

[homer]

Yeah but maybe a multi-year deal in the next month could be cheaper than waiting til the end of the year. maybe get him in the 8-9 million a year range. 3 years 25 million? I'm just assuming hes healthy now and will make his starts.

Why would the Astros want 1 year of him if he is not completely healthy? Or any other team? Or 2-3 years, even if it is at a 'discount'.

Jennings health will be the turning point on any contract or trade. Any discussion that ignores or 'assumes' this key issue is pointless.

[stubbyc]

Let's say you've found out that Williams wants C. Buchholz and J. Ellsbury in return, and the Red Sox are balking.  Do you counter with Jennings to get Buchholz and a lesser prospect?

There is absolutely no way in hell the Red Sox give up Buchholz for Jennings.

[legs_of_eggs]

Why would the Astros want 1 year of him if he is not completely healthy? Or any other team? Or 2-3 years, even if it is at a 'discount'.

Jennings health will be the turning point on any contract or trade. Any discussion that ignores or 'assumes' this key issue is pointless.

is he hurt now? i thought he was in the rotation and going to make his next start

[MusicMan]

There is absolutely no way in hell the Red Sox give up Buchholz for Jennings.

You never know until you ask.

[stubbyc]

So in essence we'd be trading our #2 or #3 one year rental for a possible #7 or #8 hitter?  Is Eric Munson that bad that this needs to be done?  I can understand having a read on Jennings as not coming back so you find the best trade available, but my question really dealt with why the Braves would do it more than anything else.

You can argue about whether or not Salty is worth Jennings or not, but there's absolutely no way the Braves give him up for Jennings. Jennings still hasn't even proven he's healthy. Do you think the Braves give up their very best position player prospect for a couple months of a guy who's battled multiple injuries all year and hasn't shown he can pitch deep into ballgames?

The asking price for Salty would more likely be Lidge or possibly Lidge and ____.

[homer]

is he hurt now? i thought he was in the rotation and going to make his next start

He has made 7 starts this year. He is one start removed from a 4 inning outing because of 'shoulder tendinitis'. He was on the shelf for a month with an elbow issue. His health is questionable, especially if making a long term comittment.

[JimR]

Give him a break, he barely keeps his family fed.

and the fucker is nothing but a poor mountaineer.

[Noe]

You can argue about whether or not Salty is worth Jennings or not, but there's absolutely no way the Braves give him up for Jennings. Jennings still hasn't even proven he's healthy. Do you think the Braves give up their very best position player prospect for a couple months of a guy who's battled multiple injuries all year and hasn't shown he can pitch deep into ballgames?

The asking price for Salty would more likely be Lidge or possibly Lidge and ____.

I wasn't arguing whether Salta-whatev is worth Jennings... I was wondering what the position was of others who were making that deal.  I think the Braves are hurting for offense, so why would they trade an offensive player?  That is *ALL* I was asking.

[David in Jackson]

do the Braves ever trade a player who comes back to bite them? they are, imo, one of the shrewdest trading clubs in MLB. a frontline pitcher AND a proven MLB backup C for a prospect, albeit a good-looking prospect? isn't that a pretty damn high price?

Jason Schmidt comes to mind.   I'm sure there are a few others.

[David in Jackson]

I've seen a lot of Salty the past two years for the AA Braves affilitate.   The issue is his long-term ability to catch.  He's 6' 4" and 195 lbs.  His defense is certainly good enough.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=457454

[JimR]

Jason Schmidt comes to mind.   I'm sure there are a few others.

so tell me who they are, and then think about those who did not. the Braves know what they are doing.

[stubbyc]

I wasn't arguing whether Salta-whatev is worth Jennings... I was wondering what the position was of others who were making that deal.  I think the Braves are hurting for offense, so why would they trade an offensive player?  That is *ALL* I was asking.

Because he's blocked behind McCann (who just signed a 6 year deal) and his only other position is 1b. Offense isn't their only worry. Their big offseason acquisition of Gonzalez is down for the year and they have problems with the back of their rotation.

I think they're also probably more inclined to believe that some of their offensive players are more likely to turn things around than their 4th and 5th starters (Davies and Carlyle). I'm sure anyone would be more comfortable with Lidge as their closer rather than Wickman as well.

[Noe]

Because he's blocked behind McCann (who just signed a 6 year deal) and his only other position is 1b.

LF?  I... ahum... mentioned that one.

Offense isn't their only worry. Their big offseason acquisition of Gonzalez is down for the year and they have problems with the back of their rotation.

Salty ain't going to fix the need at pitching in that case.  You need to dangle more prospects out there.  And offense is a huge problem, so again, why trade an offensive player to actually weaken yourself in a problem area.  Don't make sense to me, but then again... what do I know?  Nada, that is what... zip!

I think they're also probably more inclined to believe that some of their offensive players are more likely to turn things around than their 4th and 5th starters (Davies and Carlyle). I'm sure anyone would be more comfortable with Lidge as their closer rather than Wickman as well.

Lidge?  I thought this was about Jennings?  Oh boy...

[WulawHorn]

LF?  I... ahum... mentioned that one.

Salty ain't going to fix the need at pitching in that case.  You need to dangle more prospects out there.  And offense is a huge problem, so again, why trade an offensive player to actually weaken yourself in a problem area.  Don't make sense to me, but then again... what do I know?  Nada, that is what... zip!

Lidge?  I thought this was about Jennings?  Oh boy...

Noe-  I wasn't saying Salty was hitting 8th in this lineup- I was saying that most catcher's hit 7th or 8th. I think he can be a middle of the lineup type guy (maybe not 3, 4 or 5 but 6 or maybe a really good two hitter).  That ain't great or an offensive savior for a 1b (you expect them to take care of the 3,4,5 positions) but it's good for a catcher. The braves, already have such a catcher though. 

[Arky Vaughan]

Noe-  I wasn't saying Salty was hitting 8th in this lineup- I was saying that most catcher's hit 7th or 8th. I think he can be a middle of the lineup type guy (maybe not 3, 4 or 5 but 6 or maybe a really good two hitter).  That ain't great or an offensive savior for a 1b (you expect them to take care of the 3,4,5 positions) but it's good for a catcher. The braves, already have such a catcher though. 

Looking at those walk totals might even suggest a No. 2.

[Hornstros]

I don't really think anyone knows Jennings value until the market gets defined over the next month (barrring injury to jennings).  If there aren't many teams willing to deal starting pitching then Jennings value could get pretty high.  

If we could get Salty and some other players/prospects for Jennings i think it would be a good deal.  No matter what happens the Catcher position (Ausmus) and a SP position (jennings) will have to be solved in the offseason because contracts will be up.  If you trade for Salty then you've just solved one of the problems at a cheap price i might add.

We'll probably know a lot more after this series as far as being buyers or sellers

[David in Jackson]

so tell me who they are, and then think about those who did not. the Braves know what they are doing.

oh, I agree.  I just mention that to say that they aren't perfect and they have locked up McCann.

[Froback]

I like the idea of getting Salty and all, but wouldn't 3B be more of a need given that Towles is at AA, and could (not saying it is smart to do this) be in the ML as early as next year?

I am not writing off the team this year, but I think it very prudent to keep beyond this year in mind, especially when trading away your #2 this year.

And beyond this year, you have the potential of Albers and Patton and Backe to fill rotation holes (I will let you pick how well each might do that), and you have Towles and some A-ball guys at Catcher... and you have some potential bullpen types as well, but you lack OF, take your pick of RF or CF depending on where you want to "stick" Pence (I do like Flores potential), and you lack 3B...  Heck you even have potential need at 2B as most are not sold on Burke.... I am going to stick with Everett at SS unless some fool wants to give me something better.

[Noe]

Noe-  I wasn't saying Salty was hitting 8th in this lineup- I was saying that most catcher's hit 7th or 8th. I think he can be a middle of the lineup type guy (maybe not 3, 4 or 5 but 6 or maybe a really good two hitter).  That ain't great or an offensive savior for a 1b (you expect them to take care of the 3,4,5 positions) but it's good for a catcher. The braves, already have such a catcher though. 

IF Arky is right and he can hit #2 and maybe play LF, I don't get rid of him or consider him a blocked player.  If the Astros can convert Burke, a lesser offensive player, into a CF, the Braves most certainly can convert Salty into a serviceable LF.

[David in Jackson]

IF Arky is right and he can hit #2 and maybe play LF, I don't get rid of him or consider him a blocked player.  If the Astros can convert Burke, a lesser offensive player, into a CF, the Braves most certainly can convert Salty into a serviceable LF.

did we do that?

[Noe]

I like the idea of getting Salty and all, but wouldn't 3B be more of a need given that Towles is at AA, and could (not saying it is smart to do this) be in the ML as early as next year?

I am not writing off the team this year, but I think it very prudent to keep beyond this year in mind, especially when trading away your #2 this year.

And beyond this year, you have the potential of Albers and Patton and Backe to fill rotation holes (I will let you pick how well each might do that), and you have Towles and some A-ball guys at Catcher... and you have some potential bullpen types as well, but you lack OF, take your pick of RF or CF depending on where you want to "stick" Pence (I do like Flores potential), and you lack 3B...  Heck you even have potential need at 2B as most are not sold on Burke.... I am going to stick with Everett at SS unless some fool wants to give me something better.

Right, Eric Munson could possibly be the starting catcher next year if Ausmus retires and right now, in spite of some minor blocking balls in the dirt issues, he's not that bad an answer.  If you think Towles is ready (and I have some reservations about his ability to frame pitches... he looks jerky behind the plate to me), then you'll be fine with a possible Munson/Gimenez duo next year.  Right now, Houston is getting great production out of the Ausmus/Munson duo so if they get that next year with Munson/Gimenez, they should be very happy.

They have no answers in the minors for the third base position.  None whatsoever, while catcher has Towles and Max Sapp long-term and Munson/Gimenez short term.  I'm not entirely convinced Houston *needs* Salty, although he would be nice to have.  I'd look for the answers they need at #5 and also the corner infield position.  But then again, who knows at this point what the Astros think they need.  I certainly don't.

[Froback]

I hope you ment #5 in the batting order and not #5 in the rotation, cause this year, it seems they have #4 and #5 starting pitching covered but need #2 and #3 to be better addressed.  But then Jennings being healthy could solve one of those.

[Noe]

I hope you ment #5 in the batting order and not #5 in the rotation, cause this year, it seems they have #4 and #5 starting pitching covered but need #2 and #3 to be better addressed.  But then Jennings being healthy could solve one of those.

Yes, #5 in the batting order.  Big hole all year long.

[Arky Vaughan]

IF Arky is right and he can hit #2 and maybe play LF, I don't get rid of him or consider him a blocked player.  If the Astros can convert Burke, a lesser offensive player, into a CF, the Braves most certainly can convert Salty into a serviceable LF.

I do think the value of a catcher who can field his position adequately and can hit as a capable No. 2 is greater than the value of a left fielder who can hit as a capable No. 2 (or, put another way, such a catcher is harder to find than such a left fielder), so if the Braves perceive this and believe they can capitalize on that value in trade, then I can see why they would do a deal.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Salty other than having looked at his walk totals and OBPs, so I do not pretend to be any kind of expert on whether he can hit as a capable No. 2.

[Noe]

I do think the value of a catcher who can field his position adequately and can hit as a capable No. 2 is greater than the value of a left fielder who can hit as a capable No. 2 (or, put another way, such a catcher is harder to find than such a left fielder), so if the Braves perceive this and believe they can capitalize on that value in trade, then I can see why they would do a deal.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Salty other than having looked at his walk totals and OBPs, so I do not pretend to be any kind of expert on whether he can his as a capable No. 2.

So the issue isn't necessarily about Salty being blocked by McCann as much as his value drops severely in other defensive spots such as LF.  Okay, that sounds good to me, however I find it hard to believe Matt Diaz is much more previlent a hitter than Salty.

[JimR]

I do think the value of a catcher who can field his position adequately and can hit as a capable No. 2 is greater than the value of a left fielder who can hit as a capable No. 2 (or, put another way, such a catcher is harder to find than such a left fielder), so if the Braves perceive this and believe they can capitalize on that value in trade, then I can see why they would do a deal.

oh, my....

[Arky Vaughan]

So the issue isn't necessarily about Salty being blocked by McCann as much as his value drops severely in other defensive spots such as LF.  Okay, that sounds good to me, however I find it hard to believe Matt Diaz is much more previlent a hitter than Salty.

I think that's right. Although, again, I have no specific knowledge in this case. I just figure if you've got two catchers who can hit, and you can spin one of them off for the right value, that's the way to go.

[Noe]

I think that's right. Although, again, I have no specific knowledge in this case. I just figure if you've got two catchers who can hit, and you can spin one of them off for the right value, that's the way to go.

Okay, I can understand (even if I find it hard to agree with) this premise.  But if a guy can hit, he can hit and you *find* a place for him.  You don't tie his defensive position to him as a condition of keeping him around or not primarily.  But that is just my not so humble opinion is all.

[JimR]

Okay, I can understand (even if I find it hard to agree with) this premise.  But if a guy can hit, he can hit and you *find* a place for him.  You don't tie his defensive position to him as a condition of keeping him around or not primarily.  But that is just my not so humble opinion is all.

and mine

[Arky Vaughan]

Okay, I can understand (even if I find it hard to agree with) this premise.  But if a guy can hit, he can hit and you *find* a place for him.  You don't tie his defensive position to him as a condition of keeping him around or not primarily.  But that is just my not so humble opinion is all.

Agreed. For example, moving Bagwell from third to first was arguably moving him from a more demanding to a less demanding defensive position because he was "blocked" by Cammy, but you make that move every time because of Bagwell's bat.

Maybe I better way of putting what I'm saying is this: I don't know how good a hitter Salty really is or will be, but it may be that he won't be a bad hitter for a catcher, but he might be a rather pedestrian hitter for a left fielder.

[JimR]

Agreed. For example, moving Bagwell from third to first was arguably moving him from a more demanding to a less demanding defensive position because he was "blocked" by Cammy, but you make that move every time because of Bagwell's bat.

Maybe I better way of putting what I'm saying is this: I don't know how good a hitter Salty really is or will be, but it may be that he won't be a bad hitter for a catcher, but he might be a rather pedestrian hitter for a left fielder.

dammit, Arky, a hitter is a hitter and it does not matter what position he plays. they are separate.

[Noe]

Agreed. For example, moving Bagwell from third to first was arguably moving him from a more demanding to a less demanding defensive position because he was "blocked" by Cammy, but you make that move every time because of Bagwell's bat.

Maybe I better way of putting what I'm saying is this: I don't know how good a hitter Salty really is or will be, but it may be that he won't be a bad hitter for a catcher, but he might be a rather pedestrian hitter for a left fielder.

I don't really understand the difference between being a good hitter as a catcher and the same hitter is a bad hitter because he's a left fielder.  Maybe because I don't really see the defensive position coming into play like others might.  But to understand your point perhaps more clearly, you're saying a good hitting catcher is rare while good hitting left fielders are easier to find.  Correct?  If that is the case, then it's not about Salty's hitting ability or lackthereof as a LF, but because you have options that are just as good and you can then comfortably make a deal with him involved.  But my only counter to that is that if he can hit, he can hit and you know what you have in him and if you are coveting hitters for a lineup that is doing rather poorly right now, you keep him around. 

Last year, it didn't matter to me where Aubrey Huff played, right field or first or third.  If he could hit in the five hole or cleanup and help Lance Berkman, I'm all for it.  It's all perception I guess.

[Arky Vaughan]

dammit, Arky, a hitter is a hitter and it does not matter what position he plays. they are separate.

But it's harder to find someone who plays catcher or shortstop adequately and bats .280 than it is to find someone who plays first base or left field adequately and bats .280.

[Arky Vaughan]

I think this is a fair restatement of what I was saying:

But to understand your point perhaps more clearly, you're saying a good hitting catcher is rare while good hitting left fielders are easier to find.

[MusicMan]

It's all perception I guess.

Exactly.  A catcher who can hit is perceived as more valuable, especially in trade discussions, than a left fielder who is a similar hitter becuase of the relative scarcity of such catchers.

And because Mauer, McCann, Martin, et al have made the young, sweet-hitting catcher into the new hot thing.

[Arky Vaughan]

Exactly.  A catcher who can hit is perceived as more valuable, especially in trade discussions, than a left fielder who is a similar hitter becuase of the relative scarcity of such catchers.

And because Mauer, McCann, Martin, et al have made the young, sweet-hitting catcher into the new hot thing.

Like those fancy shortstops of the '90s.

[MusicMan]

Like those fancy shortstops of the '90s.

Yep.  ARod, Nomar, and Miggy really piled up the rings.

[Arky Vaughan]

Yep.  ARod, Nomar, and Miggy really piled up the rings.

Jeter was hogging them.

[MusicMan]

And since then:

David Eckstein (twice!)
Juan Uribe
Alex Gonzalez
Pokey Reese
and Tony Womack

Yes, indeed, you gots to have one of them .300, 40-HR shortstops to win yourself a ring.

[Arky Vaughan]

And since then:

David Eckstein (twice!)
Juan Uribe
Alex Gonzalez
Pokey Reese
and Tony Womack

Yes, indeed, you gots to have one of them .300, 40-HR shortstops to win yourself a ring.

They're not a bad thing to have around.

[MusicMan]

They're not a bad thing to have around.

Not if they can field the position.  But anecdotal evidence would suggest that they're overvalued.

[Arky Vaughan]

Not if they can field the position.  But anecdotal evidence would suggest that they're overvalued.

I don't buy the argument that because a certain type of player is not commonly found among a recent sampling of championship teams, that type of player is overvalued. Too many different factors go into the construction of a club to make that kind of individual attribution. But you can certainly reason that a strong-hitting shortstop is not a necessity for a championship. For that matter, you can argue that a strong-hitting player at any particular position is not a necessity for a championship.

[Froback]

The one point I always found interesting was the a Good hitting <insert spot> can allow you to have a less than good hitting <insert other spot>.  Which basically means, as long as you have people to play defense in the 8 position spots and 8 guys who can fill the 8 slots in the batting order it doesn't matter how you mix and match the combos.

[JimR]

The one point I always found interesting was the a Good hitting <insert spot> can allow you to have a less than good hitting <insert other spot>.  Which basically means, as long as you have people to play defense in the 8 position spots and 8 guys who can fill the 8 slots in the batting order it doesn't matter how you mix and match the combos.

i agree with this.

[Arky Vaughan]

i agree with this.

I do as well.

[Noe]

I don't buy the argument that because a certain type of player is not commonly found among a recent sampling of championship teams, that type of player is overvalued. Too many different factors go into the construction of a club to make that kind of individual attribution. But you can certainly reason that a strong-hitting shortstop is not a necessity for a championship. For that matter, you can argue that a strong-hitting player at any particular position is not a necessity for a championship.

A strong hitting #3 hitter is a necessity for a championship, as well as a cleanup and a #5.  Where they play in the field doesn't matter to me as long as they aren't misplaced in said field position.

[Noe]

Exactly.  A catcher who can hit is perceived as more valuable, especially in trade discussions, than a left fielder who is a similar hitter becuase of the relative scarcity of such catchers.

And because Mauer, McCann, Martin, et al have made the young, sweet-hitting catcher into the new hot thing.

See: Hundley, Todd

[MusicMan]

See: Hundley, Todd

There's a difference... these guys can actually catch.

As opposed to Piazza, Mike.

[Arky Vaughan]

A strong hitting #3 hitter is a necessity for a championship, as well as a cleanup and a #5.  Where they play in the field doesn't matter to me as long as they aren't misplaced in said field position.

Agreed. (And there's that pitching and defense thing that has something to do with championships too, but there's no need to try to persuade you of that.)

[Noe]

Agreed. (And there's that pitching and defense thing that has something to do with championships too, but there's no need to try to persuade you of that.)

You make me happy Arky.  NTTAWWT!

[Arky Vaughan]

You make me happy Arky.  NTTAWWT!

This is the feel-good thread of the year!

[JimR]

This is the feel-good thread of the year!

group hug!

(keep an eye on stubby)

[Trey]

A strong hitting #3 hitter is a necessity for a championship, as well as a cleanup and a #5.  Where they play in the field doesn't matter to me as long as they aren't misplaced in said field position.

Exactly.  There must be three high-OPS players with 90th percentile PECOTA projections and EqA between .300 and .360.  And I think we can ALL agree on that.

I'd also throw out that you need four guys with neutral to positive zone ratings, three up the middle and one on the corners.  But that position is a little more controversial.

[JimR]

Exactly.  There must be three high-OPS players with 90th percentile PECOTA projections and EqA between .300 and .360.  And I think we can ALL agree on that.

I'd also throw out that you need four guys with neutral to positive zone ratings, three up the middle and one on the corners.  But that position is a little more controversial.

fuck that. CERA is THE most important stat of all time.

[MusicMan]

(keep an eye on stubby)

Isn't this what Alike's friend's father said?

[Noe]

Exactly.  There must be three high-OPS players with 90th percentile PECOTA projections and EqA between .300 and .360.  And I think we can ALL agree on that.

I'd also throw out that you need four guys with neutral to positive zone ratings, three up the middle and one on the corners.  But that position is a little more controversial.

VOPR!  (I have no idea what that means, but it sounds really awesome when you scream it out loud)

[MusicMan]

VOPR!  (I have no idea what that means, but it sounds really awesome when you scream it out loud)

I think it's the first step toward forming Voltron.

[Trey]

VOPR!  (I have no idea what that means, but it sounds really awesome when you scream it out loud)

It's the Russian spelling of "The Big Bopper"

Helloooooooooo Baby...

[Noe]

I think it's the first step toward forming Voltron.

I bet it isn't even a neo-stat either and something I just think in my head is used by Bill James.  I've always invisioned a group meeting and they chant "VOPR" over and over again to get themselves into meeting mode. Don't bust my illusion, m'kay?

[Trey]

I bet it isn't even a neo-stat either and something I just think in my head is used by Bill James.  I've always invisioned a group meeting and they chant "VOPR" over and over again to get themselves into meeting mode. Don't bust my illusion, m'kay?

Speaking of Bill James:

"People think they understand how to win in baseball much more than they really do," Mr. James says. This is true of the statisticians as much as it is of traditional scouts. While "Moneyball" treats scouts and analysts as at odds, Mr. James says he learns from the scouts all the time. "The scouts see a lot of things that I can't see. And some of the things they see I have learned to see. But some of the things they see I can't see at all. And I'm not suggesting it's not real, it's just that I can't see it," he says. "There is no reason for there to be a conflict. The conflict exists only when people think they know more than they do."

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010232

[Arky Vaughan]

I bet it isn't even a neo-stat either and something I just think in my head is used by Bill James.  I've always invisioned a group meeting and they chant "VOPR" over and over again to get themselves into meeting mode. Don't bust my illusion, m'kay?

VOLTRON is a measure of Bagwell's fielding potential, if he were going from left-handed to right-handed rather than right-handed to left-handed:

Value Of Lefty Turned Righty Over Neutral

Bagwell's theoretical VOLTRON is, by the way, -5.489673.

[Noe]

fuck that. CERA is THE most important stat of all time.

Silly man, even *I* know that Win Shares trumps CERA every time! 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I don't give two shits about stats, I just wanna watch the Astros play baseball. I prefer they win.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's interesting that Hunter Pence has a high batting average buy I like it better if he was hitting a buck-eighty, if it somehow translated into the Astros being 10 games over .500.

[JimR]

I don't give two shits about stats, I just wanna watch the Astros play baseball. I prefer they win.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's interesting that Hunter Pence has a high batting average buy I like it better if he was hitting a buck-eighty, if it somehow translated into the Astros being 10 games over .500.

that is such an old-fashioned approach. don't you know that team wins is the most overrated stat of them all?

[Froback]

that is such an old-fashioned approach. don't you know that team wins is the most overrated stat of them all?

It is NOT!!!  EVERYONE KNOWS it is really team loses that is the MOST overrated!

[MusicMan]

VOLTRON is a measure of Bagwell's fielding potential, if he were going from left-handed to right-handed rather than right-handed to left-handed:

Value Of Lefty Turned Righty Over Neutral

Bagwell's theoretical VOLTRON is, by the way, -5.489673.

Voltron was never negative.

Voltron was the Defender of the Universe.

Apologize now.

[Alkie]

VOPR!  (I have no idea what that means, but it sounds really awesome when you scream it out loud)

It's Darth Vader breathing.

[Trey]

It's Darth Vader breathing.

I'm curious as to what percentage of this board read that post and made the Darth Vader breathing noise out loud.  I certainly did.

[Froback]

Voltron was never negative.

Voltron was the Defender of the Universe.

Apologize now.

True but the lion version was much cooler than the non-lion version.  Perhaps that is what confused him.

[Noe]

Voltron was never negative.

Voltron was the Defender of the Universe.

Apologize now.

Heck, even I know that would be Ultra Lord!

[Alkie]

I'm curious as to what percentage of this board read that post and made the Darth Vader breathing noise out loud.  I certainly did.

And saw I was right, no?

[Andyzipp]

Heck, even I know that would be Ultra Lord!

Jimmy Neutron references, under any circumstances, are strictly prohibited.

[Reuben]

True but the lion version was much cooler than the non-lion version.  Perhaps that is what confused him.

Wait, when were they not lions?

[Gleek]

I'm curious as to what percentage of this board read that post and made the Darth Vader breathing noise out loud.  I certainly did.

Awwwwwwwwww... SHIT, I did it to ok, but that doesn't make me a nerd, just sort of a geek.  Shit, ok i'm a fucking nerd, but Alkie is exactly right.  It is Vader breathing.